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Fun With Wine
taviso writes "Ever wondered what would happen if you could compile and run cygwin under wine ? What about compiling wine under cygwin ? well these guys have, and are planning to nest the two environments as many times as possible to see if wine can take the strain, and not without good reason: 'Having such virtualization environments run within each other is an important milestone in the lives of these projects, it is a remarkable technical feat that requires a great deal of maturity'. "
What's this, cygwine?
So I can nest to infinite levels cygwin and the free version of Wine, giving me access to the Linux commands I already have in Linux, only now I have them available to me n+1 times at progressively "deeper" levels. I can dig arbitrarily deep in nested environments and run 'ls'. Huzzah!
But I still cannot run MS Office or Internet Explorer or most games in Wine. D'oh!
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
Imagine parents checking the browser history and discovering their 14-years-old read a page called "Fun With Wine".
Wine has come light-years since I first used it, years and years ago... yet every time I try to use it to run some arbitrary WinThing, inevitably I can't figure out how to make it work, or I try feeding it every DLL/etc. it needs, and then it segfaults. Or just doesn't work.
I read these stories of people doing absolutely astonishing things using WINE, but what the rest of us (who only have a need to touch WINE when there is something that they Must Have that isn't available for Linux-- in my case, it was the FightAIDS@Home distributed-computing client) really need is a good, central repository of "How to get Program X to work under WINE" mini-tutorials.
Anyone here work on WineHQ and can comment on this?
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
... most developers already had fun with wine :-)
'Having such virtualization environments run within each other is an important milestone in the lives of these projects, it is a remarkable technical feat that requires a great deal of maturity'.
No, it's a party trick. Milestones include running actual applications that matter and getting large numnbers of users to use the emulators as a bridge from one OS to anther.
FWIF, Since 1995-1996 or so I've had linux people telling me about how wine is close to obsoleting my windows systems. Hence, my skepticism. These emulators always seem to be amazing technical accomplishments, yes, but like Soviet televisions made of vaccuum tubes for sale at Best Buy, not ready for prime time by anybody but tinkerers. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that they are chasing a moving target..
This seems more like a "proof of concept" situation than something that's really important. I understand that it shows a relatively clean program, but when would something like this be necessary or applicable in the real world (ie - repetitively nesting cygwin and wine)?
Compile & run Cygwin under Wine in Linux
This provides an a good test case for Wine. It is tough, but we do have the Cygwin source code, and we have a good chance to understand why it does not work.
So they have a good chance of understanding why it doesn't work?
Forgive me if I don't find that *overly* impressive :-)
"...feat that requires a great deal of maturity."
Obviously not referring to the maturity level of the people doing this!
Microsoft can snap it any time. All they need to do, is to change thier APIs and making them incompatible.
Uhh... perhaps you've been living under a rock for the last two years? They did change all of their APIs to make WINE obsolete. Here are the new ones: http://www.microsoft.com/net/
Slashdot is jumping the shark. I'm just driving the boat.
The wine project may have achieved many milestones, but Microsoft can snap it any time. All they need to do, is to change thier APIs and making them incompatible. True, but they would also "snap" the compatiblity for every previous Windows application. I would love for them to do this, however, as it would mean every Windows customer changing from the proprietary environment.
these guys have some skills. I know it's probably just because I don't know how, but I can't even get X to work with cygwin, or anyting other than solitaire to work in wine.
This reminds me of the time when I sshed to one machine, then telneted back to the machine I was on, and kept on telneting and sshing to as many machines as I could to see what would happen. Th results weren't as exciting but it was still fun.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
To break Wine, they need to break backwards compatibility. Their existing MASSIVE market of users and companies that use old programs on new Windows will prevent them from ever doing this like you say.
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
Run VTI (A TI calculator emulator) under Wine. Then in VTI, run Tezxas (A ZX Spectrum emulator)
Becouse of gaming companies slow to relase linux versions of even servers for there games, i have to run them in wine untill a linux server becomes available. works well, and on a 1ghz athlon system running three gaming servers on it, the load average isnt even as high as you would expect.
I thought that cygwin was just an implementation of the UNIX command line tools for Win32, not a full emulator or virtual machine (like VMWare, for instance.) How would they 'run' WINE under Cygwin?
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
Ok, let's see... We are running Linux... Start vmware and run windows in it... and then install cygwin there... and then run wine in it... and again and in wine run Atari/Amiga emulator and then C64 emulator in it and in it we could probably squeeze in VC-20 emulator... ... ... ;>
Ok... that's bizzare..
The Sig, the sig
I have serious doubts about the future of wine. The wine project may have achieved many milestones, but Microsoft can snap it any time. All they need to do, is to change thier APIs and making them incompatible. And if it makes bussiness sense, believe me, they will.
They already have in a way. Wine is still working on the Win9x API, so software that needs the newer Win2k or XP interfaces won't run. This may not be a big deal yet, but MS already announced (sorry, I don't have the link handy) that Office 11 will *not* run on Win9x, it will be 2k or XP only.
Wine as a platform for running old apps will live on, but wine as a viable alternative to buying windows is stuffed, IMHO.
0 1 - just my two bits
1)install wine and cygwin
2) ???
3) Fun!!
Compilers are considered to be somewhat mature, when they can compile themselfs. Kudos to Wine and Cygwin for managing this.
But luckily, we have Mono and dotGNU and the benefit of a more-open spec with .NET.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
I had the same problem, sometime I would manage to get something running, mostly not.
Now the standard (unstable) debian install comes with winesetup, which sets up a nice working wine installation (works a bit better of you have windows installed)
Try to install winesetup (a contribution from codeweavers)...
So, is my attempt to use my /. journal as a weblog kinda the same thing? I wonder if someone could use the comment section in one of my entries as a mini-/. ? Then someone could use the comments to that for a weblog and...
I gotta stop now. My head hurts.
Jack William Bell
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
So...can I use my Mac to run VirtualPC, run Linux on it, and use WINE and Cygwin to run and develop Windows apps?
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Windows -> VMWare -> Linux -> Wine -> Cygwin -> Wine.
And finally, a stable, enterprise-ready solution for running my Windows applications.
One future, two choices. Oppose them or let them destroy us.
MS has more than just announced that Office 11 won't run under 9x, they've pretty much stated that, due to security concerns, most new software will not operate under 9x. They are attempting to force a change, and hopefully it will increase stability (and revenues, but that's beside the point, right?) as games and applications are written solely for the nt-core os'es.
You think that I'm crazy, you should see this guy!
I've done this and tests like it under various emulations of systems, yes mostly because I was bored and it is definately useless. What ever happened to geeks who tried to do difficult things... just to see if they could and to hell with practical purpose?
managers have fun with wine, we developers have to make do with beer ;-)
My Aurora : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o91ZsGwJYyg
FB : https://www.facebook.com/TanveersPhotography
Ok, here you go: http://appdb.winehq.com/ just what you want
Actually the WineHQ site is being redesigned at the moment (I'm not a major contributor but am on the lists).
The best tip for using wine is simply - buy it. WineHQ wine hasn't had much effort put into end user usability, it's much like the raw Linux kernel, it needs wrapping up with lots of utilities and quite a few "hack patches" for it to do everything the users demand. I have 2 installations of Wine on my machine, CrossOver and Wine CVS. Guess which works better.
Often, a few little things can make a program work better if it doesn't work properly with a standard CodeWeavers install. For instance: WinZip works fine until you open a zip with a message in it. Why? Because it's missing a RichEdit control (wine has no replacement for it yet). You could fiddle with config files and make it use a native riched40.dll, but an easier way is to google for it, find allerasoft.com and download it from there. Run the RichEdit update .exe in Wine, and now you have the control and WinZip works perfectly.
The Apps DB is the best place to look for tips like this, each app that is known about in the database has a score and a comments section for users to swap tips.
World's best honeypot!
Virtual PC emulates a PC perfectly, so that you can run windows 2000 or a linux distro on it just as though it were a PC.
I say, run The Sims under WINE under CYGWIN under WINE under {Linux Distro} under Virtual PC under Mac Os 9 environment under Mac OS X.
And not pay Microsoft a penny.
http://appdb.winehq.org/
Useful, indeed.
But what I miss is a simple configuration/installation program. I have executed trillian under wine and (as you can see in appdb) it works almost 100%, but getting it to work wasn't simple, nor short.
Great great project, though.
How about installing Linux on an XBox, running Bochs on it, installing Linux onto the Bochs machine, running Virtual PC under Wine, installing Windows 98 on Virtual PC, running WinUae on it, installing Linux onto the emulated Amiga, running Bochs on the emulated Amiga...
OR you could go out and have sex with a woman, one with breasts and everything.
I know this may be a bit offtopic, however I've been trying to find out if wine is usable under osx. Has anyone done this or know of any sites covering this? I've tried google without any luck. Thanks
Creationists are a lot like zombies. Slow, but powerful and numerous. And they all want to eat our brains.
If your talking about palladium there's nothing they can really do about it unless intel and amd have a sudden change of heart and get rid of that trash so that no signed software can still run.
----
Go canucks, habs, and sens!
This kind of virtualisation stress test is interesting, but largely academic. I'm still waiting for the day when it is less hassle to load the (very few) windows applications I need under wine than it is to reboot my workstation to deal with those tasks under windows. Screwing around with wine to get it to load even small windows applications is one of the most frustrating things I can think of in association with *nix systems. I hear good things about the transgaming stuff, but it obviously hasn't made it back into the main branch of the wine tree. The promise of wine has been hanging out there for a lot of years now; I'm just wondering if perhaps they're trying to build a glass house on quicksand.
Although I know he's referring to software maturity, its still funny to hear "Lets see how many x we can y" and "maturity" in the same breath (or sentence, as the case may be)
everybuddy is a good linux alternative to trillian -- does basically the same thing.
Imagine running Cygwin in Wine in Linux on big iron (remember, 40.000 of those on one machine) and then do a couple of VMwares in each. Then You can run a beowulf cluster...
If you can nest the environments ten times, what is to be gained (scientifically) by doing it one thousand times?
...finally something (other than Doom 3) that gives us a use for the 3 GHz P4.
A single guide for each and every program would be impossible to keep updated. Like most people, I have never heard of most Windows programs including the one that you mentioned above.
The next best thing is the Wine Application Database. The appdb lists specific programs and you can add yours to it so others know how well or poorly the programs you are interested in work.
Tip: If you search for the message that appears when the program fails to run, you might get directions on how to install another program that is similar and does work with Wine. (Then again, you might not...can't say!)
The Wine FAQ has been updated reciently, and the Wine Knowledgebase is still helpful.
Note: The Wine-FAQ link listed above may move.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Ouh!! Cygwin running under wine running under cygwin running under wine running under... I think we can create a game here. It woulb be called: "Finding where are you sitting?"
http://www.frankscorner.org/wine/ is an incredible resource. Check it for info on how to run all of those hard-to-make-work programs. He even shows how to get WineX working for free :-)
"player 4 hit player 1 with 0 stroms"
It's not as bad as you make out. The .NET CLR runs on top of the Win32 API and is not a replacement. Therefore, in theory, a fully working WINE will allow .NET to run straight on top of WINE. In fact, there are attempts in the Mono project to use WINE to enable WinForms on Linux. If .NET can run on WINE, that would be a major achievement and it certainly isn't impossible
I was interested in your FightAIDS@Home cause, and looked up their website, but was really turned off by this excerpt of their webpage:
What exactly is included in "commercial tasks." It seems to me that if I'm donating *my* spare computer cycles, and *my* electricity, you shouldn't take advantage of that by profiting from it. Oh well...
The first one is that Wine is hard to make work. Well, it's like Linux you know, if you go get a release from WineHQ it's like getting Debian or Gentoo, great for power users but it requires quite a lot of effort to make it work well. It's all there though, you can sit down and beat WineHQ releases into running Office or IE. It just takes effort and skill.
For the rest of us, companies like CodeWeavers are for Wine what RedHat is for Linux. They add bits, integrate it nicely, give you support. As a concrete example of what they add, they have a nice app (officesetup) which presents you with a list of apps that are installed a la "Add/Remove programs". If you use this program to install an app as opposed to running the setup.exe directly, icons will be added to your menus and desktop, and file associations will be automatically setup for you. Wine doesn't have this (yet).
Another thing is that WineHQ has no code for automatically performing a "reboot". Stuff like IE needs some actions to be performed when you reboot the machine (the RunOnce sections). WineHQ releases don't have any code for this, so you'd have to manually read the registry entries and files and do it yourself, hence the fact that most people fail.
WineHQ will get this code. One of the targets for Wine 1.0 is that it's easy to use. For now though, you need to buy CrossOver Office for the best overall Wine experience. It's unfortunate that you have to buy a separate product for games, but that's one of the perils of BSD licensing, it allows forks like that (fyi wine is now lgpl).
Another myth is that wine can never catch up with Microsoft. That actually isn't true, if anything we're moving as fast as, if not faster than Microsoft right now. There are a few large projects left and then Wine basically has a mostly complete implementation of the Windows APIs. Such projects include a richedit control (effectively a mini word processor), RPC (being worked on now), DirectX (an lgpl implementation, parts are available but d3d is only like 10% done), a WinHelp app and so on. After that, it's pure bugfixing all the way.
So what are Microsoft doing? Well they're working on .NET of course, the Windows APIs are horrible and .NET is a way of making them easier to use. But we have that covered as well with Mono, in fact for System.Windows.Forms Mono is using the Wine controls library. Mono is moving at an astonishing pace, it has lots of volunteers working on it. But it needs more developers as always (wine that is), and one problem is that getting Wine working well enough to hack on it is hard. Catch 22 in a way. Don't be put off though. Wine is cool, and remarkably advanced.
As I read the first sentence of the main post, I thought, "well... that's dumb." But then, I realized that it wasn't. Like it says a bit later on, being able to do things like this is indicative of maturity and robustness. It's not that useful (yet) in-and-of-itself, but it's an indicating that things are starting to solidify.
Doing weird, technical things like this that are far beyond a projects original scope indicates that the project itself has matured, and is growing past it's original scope. The neat thing, is that it's doing so almost as a side effect.
Besides, I think truly useful things will come of this before too long. Virtual machines within a machine is useful for lots of things. Application firewalling, stress testing, deployment testing on various platforms, etc.
Would it be of any significant speed benefit to build an engine to recompile software to run in linux native code, rather than "wineulating" (for lack of a better word, since wine is not an emulator) windows native code in real-time?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Well everybuddy, gaim, etc are great if all you are doing is chatting. But if you want to transfer files, forget about using anything native to linux. Why this feature is left out of virtually every linux im client I've come across is beyond me.
...and IN SOVIET RUSSIA, beowulf clusters imagine 1, 2, 3 profit!!!! jokes made out of YOU!!!
I'd really like to see this.
His instructions seem to require you to check out WineX from CVS - but
his instructions suggest there is anonymous checkout available without
a password.
When I tried it just now, it definitely needed a password.
www.sjbaker.org
They can make THEIR product use the NEW features on their NEW OS.
But that has nothing to do with REMOVING the OLD features from their NEW OS.
Two completely separate situations that have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
"I will trust Google to 'do no evil' until the founders no longer run it." Hello Alphabet.
in cygwin under wine?? :)
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
I thought the grandparent post was joking when he said it showed how to get WineX for free because it's so simple... Then I see the parent post and see that not everyone has used CVS before... Either the password is blank (just hit enter when asked) or the password is anoncvs I'm quite sure it says that on the transgaming site too...
Luke-Jr
Java is supposed to be slow. It's an interpretor.
And Mozilla isn't slow. Try running Mozilla compiled with Visual C++ (in Windows or Wine) and it will be fine. The speed problem here is the C++ compiler from GCC.
Luke-Jr
> Wine has come light-years since I first used it
.I still remember the days when the only program that worked reliably under Wine was notepad and I had fun running exceed on a windows machine, smb mounting its filesystem and then xhosting notepad back on to itself :).
LOL. .
Wine is not perfect, but it has come a light-years and frankly amazes me how much it can do!
Wine isn't a virtual machine or an emulator of any kind. It is merely a Win32 API implementation. The code from the programs run natively.
Luke-Jr
Anonymous checkout is available in regard that you don't have to have YOUR OWN account to use their CVS. However, even an anonymous account requires a password. In Wine's case, their anonymous (read-only) account is usename "cvs" and password "cvs".
What would you want to run either MSIE or Netscape? *cough*Mozilla*cough*
Luke-Jr
I can achieve the same effect with just ONE shell command:
$ ssh localhost
I can even forward local ports to themselves & set any zlib compression level i like. & all communication between my nested levels is encrypted with my choice of protocols. Try that with cygwine! Plus my system remains completely free of proprietary MS library names!
peter
Maybe because IM is text, not files. On the other hand, I like IM file transfers and am hoping Kopete supports it when it is released with KDE 3.2...
Luke-Jr
I have cygwin installed on my AMD box, its nice, but its not what I would call speedy. Vmware running mandrake (with vmware tools, so I can cut and paste) runs at a very acceptable speed. Not saying cygwin doesnt have its uses, working on any text log files is easier with text-utils than plain windows install anyday. (sort/cut/grep/wc/ or perl)
On the topic of WINE thou, the only reason I use wine is for CounterStrike, and All-seeing-eye on linux.
I seriously doubt the games and applications will be written "solely for the NT-core OS'es". My guess is that they'll continue to be written for Win32 as they have been since forever, and the only thing preventing them from working on Win9x will be a simple version check and a pop-up stating they won't work.
Wine can simply pretend to be a more recent version of Windows, and the apps will keep working. No new win32 function calls will need to be reverse-engineered.
that's 3 bits u idiot XD
Luke-Jr
No. He was going to run Linux in the Virtual PC...
Luke-Jr
Oh, I'm well aware of how wine functions. I developed high-end commercial software for about two years that incorporated various emulation techniques for a number of purposes.
I found, when thinking about capabilities, that worry too much about the distinctions of how you run code for one platform on another wasn't very helpful. No matter how you do it, through various kinds of emulation, library replacement, different kinds of encapsulation, or whatever, it really doesn't matter in the thoeritical realm. They are all equivalent as they can all do exactly the same thing and have exactly the same functionality.
Now, there are many many practical reasons why different techniques are superior, but I was only speaking of possible applications of functionality, not implementation of those features, so, it as far as my comments go, it doesn't *matter* whether Wine replaces Window's libraries, or is a virtual machine, etc. The former is usually faster, but march harder to get right while the latter is, technically, fairly simple to do, while it is often very slow to run.
Though not always. It's a fascinating and often misunderstood field.
I'm sorry if I am taken as trolling here, but the last part of your comment irritated me immeasurably. Yes, I believe that free beer things are good. Very good. Back when I used Windows, I pirated things that I was never going to use just to have them. I'll admit I was horrible. However, projects like WineX and Codeweaver need your support. Buy subscriptions and let these people know how much you appreciate their hard work. It's only going to go so far if you just take advantage of it without helping them fund some of the development.
I don't know about you guys, but purposefully playing with something until it breaks is not usually considered "mature" in my book.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
But.... isn't that... kind of... emulation?
Emulation = the imitation of something
WINE = the imitation of the WinAPI
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
The LINE Project also falls into this ubercool camp. (Is Sourceforge down? Here's the cached version). It allows you to run staticly (statically?) linked Linux applications under Windows/Cygwin - including advanced X11 applications. I've tried it and it actually works surprisingly well. The problem is that LINE emulator is not actively maintained any longer and it broke with the recent Cygwin DLL and/or the upgrade to the recent GCC 3.2.x compiler for Cygwin. When I get a chance I'm going to take a look at it to see if there's an easy fix. If anyone here has a clue as to what the problem might be, please reply to this post. thanks.
I'm the same way as you. Wine works half-assed no matter what I do. It has always played Solitare, but that's about it. Even when I got Office 2k installed, half the time it would crash as soon as you tried to open a menu. It was never usable.
I also tried the codweavers plugin demo(for WMP, Quicktime etc.) That didn't go well at all on a stock Redhat 7.3 install. Quicktime kinda worked once in a while, but nothing else would install. They would download via the shell script and then nothing.
Bottom line is Wine is a crutch and a bad one at that. I'm hardly inexperienced with linux and if I think Wis a pain, I can hardly imagine what less experienced users must go through trying to get it to work.
BTW even when following the tips on Franks wine world the apps dont' work. I don't know what mojo he uses, but when I've followed the tips I haven't gotten fully usuable apps.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
If you put cygwin under wine under cygwin under wine too many times, and it starts to process incohently, would that effect be caused by the fact that the computer is drunk?
Ehm, Crossover developers actually support the license switch to LGPL.. it's Transgaming folks that have problems with it and encourage dual-licensing, because some of their changes involve propietary bits that cannot be revealed.
Nothing stopping anyone from putting a propietary pay-only interface on top of an LGPL product.
Michel
Fedora Project Contribut
That's not true at all, Wine has loads of NT calls, in fact if you look you'll see ntkernel.dll right there in the Wine installation. Wine automatically provides the right calls to the application based on what they need.
Why would you run either MSIE, Netscape or Mozilla? *cough*Opera*cough*
Just had to (-8
I've got a laptop dual booting Linux and Windows 2000. The Win2k I need for work. It is my understanding that Wine works best with a Windows install, preferrably Windows 95/98. Is that true? If so, why? I just can't get most things to work under Wine with my setup.
If you read the fucking page, it says "Hit Enter when prompted for a password."
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
The Windows version of MySQL uses the Cygwin libraries.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Because they can.
Install VirtualPC on it. Install Linux under the VirtualPC environment. Install the PC version of VirtualPC in this environment running Windows XP, install VirtualPC on the Windows XP instance running Linux and see how far I could get. Of course I'd also like a girlfriend too so I wouldn't have time or motivation for projects such as this.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
> And Mozilla isn't slow.
Mozilla isn't slow, but it has a higher memory footprint than some
other browsers (Opera, for example) and a higher _apparent_ memory
footprint than IE, from the user's perspective (because the parts
of IE that are loaded at bootup time won't be considered as parts
of IE by most users). This means that on systems with marginal
amounts of RAM, Mozilla is more likely to push you over the edge of
your memory into swap, which of course is _noticeably_ slower. This
is the phenomenon most often meant when people say Mozilla is slow.
In my case, I've got 512MB of RAM, and after the OS (Linux) and GUI
(XFree/Gnome) take their hits the five apps I use most (Emacs, Gnus,
Mozilla, Gimp, and gnome-terminal) are welcome to most of the rest.
Once a day or so when I fire up something else large (OpenOffice,
for example) too, I dip into swap space, but most of the time that's
not a problem. But I'm a power user, and I specifically maxed out
the RAM on my system so that I could have [counts] fourteen windows
open at once (at the moment, 3 Emacsen, the 4 basic Gimp windows
(no actual images just now), one Mozilla (9 tabs), and 6 instances
of gnome-terminal (in 4 different terminal classes) for various
things (one for a MySQL client, two looking at directories where
I'm doing two different projects, one tailing a log (related to one
of the projects), and two sshed into another system). That's not
normal user stuff; most people _don't_ go out and spend extra money
on extra RAM, because they _don't_ need to have 14 windows open at
once. So for them, if the computer is anything like as old as mine
(January 1998 originally, though I haven't had 512MB of RAM that
long), Mozilla is indeed going to be "slow".
This is however not a _performance_ issue (from the programmer's
standpoint), but a footprint issue, and it will be fading in
importance, as new computers are coming with more hefty amounts of
RAM these days. (128MB is _way_ more than Mozilla needs, and
that's the least a normal system comes with these days.) Yes,
apps will continue to grab more of that, but since most users
only really run one app at a time... so app developers don't
have to _stop_ the growth in the amount of RAM they use, as long
as the keep it substantially _slower_ than the growth in the amount
of RAM that new computers have. By Netscape 8 timeframe nobody's
going to _care_ that it uses 48MB of RAM or more. The people who
_do_ run multiple apps at once (such as myself) can pick up a
little extra RAM; it's cheap these days. By the time Netscape 9
comes out, it can probably get away with using 64MB or more, since
three-year-old off-the-shelf systems (being sold today) will have
128 to work with en total, and new systems will be selling with
more like 512 or more. (Of course that number is guesstimated.)
Code optimization from the compiler doesn't really matter; it's
keeping it from swapping that will save your day in terms of
apparent performance. The difference between well-optimized code
and poorly-optimized code, in terms of CPU time, is subliminal;
most people need benchmarks to even determine whether there _is_
a difference. But if you run out of physical RAM and start using
swap space, the user can measure the delay with something no more
precise than an analog watch.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
> It's not that useful (yet) in-and-of-itself
It's not _supposed_ to be useful in-and-of-itself. cygwin is useful,
and WINE is useful, but running them inside eachother is a form of
testing. Because of the nature of what WINE and cygwin are, there
isn't ever going to be a large demand for the need to run them inside
one another. (The occasional oddball case where it comes in handy
for something, yes, but no large demand.) But being able to do it
is an indication that both projects have reached a minimal level of
mostly working. (cygwin, in my experience, works a good deal better
than WINE; I don't know whether that's because it's a more mature
project, or because it's doing an easier job (since what it's doing
emulation of is better documented), or because Unix apps are more
portable, or some combination, or what.)
When they can run cygwin under Windows under VMWare under Linux
under the Windows version of VirtualPC under WINE running on
FreeBSD under VirtualPC for the Mac running under MacOS X, then
I'll be properly impressed.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
0: Take a sun UltraSparc 10
1: Forget about Solaris and install linux (aurora, for example).
2: Compile and Install Bochs (boch.sourceforge.net).
3: Run any Windows (9x/98/ME/NT/XP).
4: Run Cygwin.
5: Run Wine.
6: Run Boch again (Compiled for windows).
7: Run Red Hat Linux (x86 distro).
8: Run VMWare.
9: goto 3
-- When did Ignorance Become a Point of View?
You are advocating a non-workable model based on goodwill of people. It is better for everybody if it fails sooner rather than later.
Gentlemen, you can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
There are some real applications that could come out of this rather than just endless virtualization - much of it could prove useful to ReactOS which aims to be a open source alternative OS to Windows... :-))
Also another in the pipeline which need a lot more work on Wine before anything will happen with it (XOpenWin, which aims to replace the Windows GDI with XWindows
Wine and other related things need developers, so sign up and get coding. Check out the wine-devel mailing lists for more useful info...
Why so many terminals? I use dozens of terminals at once myself, but only 3 are on my CRT at any time. (Hint: "screen")
The best thing about "screen" is, I can detach my sessions and reconnect to them exactly where I left off, from any other terminal in the world (any class of device, too).
Wouldn't people be more likely to donate money to an actual *charity*?
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Thanks (-8 Good job on noticing..
/.-sig-limit limits it, and I never bothered to fix it..
Actually, the sig is supposed to be complete, including credits to allmighty Douglas Adams. But the
Excuse me for having faith in humanity. Yeah, I understand what you are saying, people will naturally cling to cash if they can get free stuff. But I believe it is indeed workable. If it isn't, say goodbye to the OSS community as we know it.
I've heard about screen, but I haven't messed with it much.
The advantage of my approach can be summed up in two words: terminal
classes. For example, the terminals that are sshed into pedestrian
(my IP-Masq gateway) appear in my task list with the title "Pedestrian"
and an icon of a terminal wearing blue shoes, and their colours are
set to white on soft light blue. The terminal that I use for the
MySQL client appears as "MySQL" in the list, with an icon of a
dolphin, and the colours are set to white on dark blue. The one that
is tailing a logfile appears as "logtail" with an icon of a terminal
with a (wooden) log in front of it, and the colours are yellow on
burgundy. The specific details are not important, but the point is
I can tell them apart at a glance and easily grab the one I want.
It's no harder to switch to MySQL than it is to switch to Gnus.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.
There is a detailed analysis. And you can try that without having to use some payware or large free software.