Demise Of The Premier .NET community site

Seems like something has horribly gone wrong at ASPFriends.com. The site is being closed as a result of a break down in negotiations with Microsoft over support for funding this developer community forum which has over 73000 members who post over 12 million messages a month regarding MS development. The primary reason for this break down seems to be do with the contract that had to be signed to receive funding. I'm no lawyer and I've not seen the entire contract but it seems like it contains clauses which basically state "at our discretion, with 30 days notice we can terminate this contract and take ownership of your site".

Comments

Trustworthy!

[reaper20]

Keep thinking MS is a community friendly company, see what happens.

Re:Trustworthy!

[GBWorld]

Wow, let's all just show off our anti-Microsoft bias. Let's read a highly edited snippet of a contract and assume we know enough to jump up and slam Microsoft over being the evil empire. Grow up guys!

The ASP Friends community was a rather interesting set of email lists. I personally found them annoying, as I prefer to use forums and UseNet. Some people found them highly useful, and, for them, it is bad to see the demise.

Microsoft was entering into a business dealing to agree to fund a site (pay 100% percent of the bills). If Charles did not like the contract, he had every right to do what any business does, which is negotiate. I see no evidence that he tried.

Overall, Charles has acted like a spoiled toddler when he has not gotten his way in the past. Shutting down the site without any form of negotiation, and then posting his tantrum on the web, is just another incident. He has, fortunately, found an ally in this site, which is primarily filled with people who would love to jump on Microsoft without any evidence of any wrongdoing. I, for one, refuse to drink either kool aid.

It seems there are so many legitimate topics to bitch about Microsoft over without jumping into this PR nightmare, but maybe anything you can bitch about Microsoft about is considered a valid topic.

Now, as for the title of this article, I do not see that ASP Friends was ever the premiere .NET community. Certainly, it was a set of lists that was very useful to both ASP and ASP.NET users, but THE premiere site? This sounds like a press release printed verbatum.

If you try and get cosy with a snake...

[Viol8]

...you'll get bitten eventually. Its a shame for these guys and somewhat shortsighted from MS's point of view as theres a chance they could alienate a large number of developers, surely the last thing you'd think they'd want to do. But as has been proved in the past MS only thinks about the bottom line, ie $$$$, and external developers don't shift Windows and Office in bulk.

Boohoo.

[torpor]

You play with a tiger, expect to get scratched.

It's almost as if they are completely ignorant of the fact that DEVELOPERS are the only ones keeping Microsoft in their position, so -- of *COURSE* Microsoft is going to be aggressive about controlling them.

The only way to stop MS is to just *NEVER* write code for them. Ever.

They know this ...

Re:Boohoo.

[robson]

It's almost as if they are completely ignorant of the fact that DEVELOPERS are the only ones keeping Microsoft in their position, so -- of *COURSE* Microsoft is going to be aggressive about controlling them.

I can't believe you would question Microsoft's devotion to developers...

Re:Boohoo.

[torpor]

No question about it in my mind.

MS love Developers like Bush likes an ass-whoopin' ...

Re:Boohoo.

[Lord Omlette]

You play with a tiger, expect to get scratched.

No kitten, I wuv you, don't bite me! (NOT DRUnNK!!)

Again...

[Iamthefallen]

This kinda shit happens simply because MS is run by lawyers and marketers, each and every time MS will choose short term gain over a long term beneficial relationship. Partners, developers, customers, MS will screw you over if it means they can make a quick buck.

And I use MS products for 90% of my development, perhaps it is time to pick up some books on competitors instead...

Now we know...

[Alethes]

where the next 73,000 Microsoft trolls are going to come from for Slashdot. Maybe Taco needs a microsoft.slashdot.org like exists for Apple so all the trolls and flamers can go play together.

Painful Lessons

[KalenDarrie]

Good products are only a part of the overall make up of a good company. It is just too bad that this guy had to learn the hard way that, despite their public party line, Microsoft is only happy when they're in full control, running the show.

If you step out of line or play even one note off key, they kick you out of the orchestra and confiscate your instrument. Never mind that you paid for it yourself. They own it now.

I'm glad he didn't sign that contract, but I'm sad that he has to loose not only his years of work, but the motivation to support his community.

Even if it is a Microsoft community. Maybe some day he'll get into a better community with a company that will nurture his zeal.

Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[imr]

First, he is ethical. Which is at the root of the free software movement.
I guess he could not see the kind of redmond actions his site is suffering right now because he must have blinded himself due to his total devotion and defense to MS products. Being the one to be hurt always make things easier to understand.
Yet, as he points out, he could go and get bought, or he could go on and continue to support his site that way, but prefers to shut it down due to ethical reason. Good man.
Second. He has built a serious community site through a lot of efforts which is also the core of the free software efforts. Apparently, redmond can cope with this kind of behavior (too independant for them, probably) despite recent speeches about community spirit.
Third, such a fine man, could be very usefull in helping some projects in getting what they lack, the kind of features that made this man stick to redmond so long. There must be something real in his praises of their products and too often, unix cultured people dont get that kind of "things".
But he still links to asp.net forums despite all they just did to him.
Well, he probably dreams in a "deus ex machina" Gates, coming down from his tower and putting things together, because he is "Doing the right thing and letting Ms know when its own employees hurt it's reputation is vital.". Yes, it must be "some employee", it can't be the compagny as a whole.
That is his flaw probably. He still dont get that what is happening to him is the spirit of redmond activity and has been the key to their success since the beginning.
Repeat after me:"extend and embrace; or strangle to death."
So we might see a redmond move to correct this situation, but it will be a one time pr move. The kind of "redmond make a deal with peru government" move.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[imr]

Error above: of course it's "can't cope".

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[CharlesCarroll]

By the way I linked to the forums to remind people where MS is emphasizing, delibrately and calculatingly. It is not to be kind to MS it is to be kind to the users that need support in some form. Many of my users don't know there are forums that MS is emphasizing in favor of our support. I will add links to P2P and Developmentor mailing lists to not forget the users that need support. The users are why I started this, and they should not be forgotten. And a "one shot 6 month deal" won't satisfy. I just wanted people to know why I closed, and what MS thinks is better. It would take a lot for me to "put the genie back in the bottle" - they have already shown their true faces in "out competing" a site that is trying to helpthem instead of co-operating with the many support options as I do. MS presented a Draconian contract to the high tech equivalent of a soup kitchen helping their sers and opens a competing soup kitchen and refuses and delays to mention the other soup kitchen to needy coders. I am fine walking away, but I want PEOPLE to know where they need to get help from.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[Anonymous Coward]

um, this isn't a guy who built up a site and a community only to have Microsoft steal it out from under him. This is a site wholly funded and sponsored by Microsoft as a marketing tool. Microsoft pays his salary, his bandwidth, his free cokes, and everything else. And they have the audacity to claim that they can take ownership of a site that is, in every other concievable way, already a Microsoft subsidiary? How dare they!

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[imr]

Well, to take my own words, you don't have any flaws then.
I'm really sad about what happen to your initiative and in no way found in your story matter to rejoice.
Now that I understand that it's the people you were helping that did matter all the way to you, i would like to know what it is that you found in their products that made you make overenthusiastic comments such as "Nah I worship their products." ?
(it's a genuine question. if you don't have time to answer, don't bother, i will go and follow the links you made in your site to find elements of anwser)

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[MickDownUnder]

Thanks Charles for all your efforts I'm a strong believer in Karma and I do believe that if Microsoft doesn't appreciate all your positive efforts and energy you've put into ASPFriends, then some greater force out there will.

I for one can say I have benefited greatly from your site and have relied upon it heavily in the past year to get myself trained in .NET (just to stay employed in this highly competitive IT job market). I don't know where I'd be without it.

I do hope you consider some sort of subscription system that might help to keep the site running. However I could understand why you'd feel like chucking it in after the way you've been treated by Microsoft.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[CharlesCarroll]

I made ZERO $$$$$$ I make my money other ways. I spent several thousand on top of what MS pays the ISP for various reasons to support this community.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[Anonymous Coward]

Slow down and consider the souce here. Anyone active in MS community knows that CC is a big whiner. He lists his opinions as tho they are fact, and twists information and numbers to only suit himself. Look at the 12/1 shutdown FAQ. He contridicts himself all over the place, his accounting is 7th grade and posting portions of a contract out-of-context is UN-ethical. He is shutting down because the accountablity has become too much for him to handle. He is shutting down because he isn't makeing money from the community- expoliting as he has in the past.

MS supported ASP friends all over the place. They promoted it, linked to it, and were active in it. Communities that are healthy don't need MS posting all over the place. They are self-sustaining and self supporting. CC wanted money, period.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[cooldeals]

You have no idea what you are talking about. Charles makes his money off of training classes. He only LOSES money with the listservs. He spends a tremendous amount of time doing the modration, and other community activities. No money comes from the lists though. You are absolutely wrong about that. They didnt even pay for him to travel to Washington for the summit meetings they setup for his aspelites group. They take take take and dont give... 3k? WTF is that to them, and it DOESNT MAKE CHARLES ANY MONEY!!!! It ALL goes to pay for the licensing and bandwidth the lists need... If you are going to accuse him of things at least get your stories straight. The site is NOT wholey funded by MS... What about the people that moderate the lists? they are not given anything from MS either... they provide free tech support for MS technologies and dont get a damn thing. it ahs to take a TON of hours to do this. Are they getting paid for their time? NOT Listen, if MS was funding this thing the way they should be none of this would be happening. Instead they chose to take advantange of a person who LOVES the "community" aspect of things and puts in the time because he loves it... you call 3k fully funding? it only covers licensing and bandwidth, it doesnt cover anything else which is what makes the lists what they are. 3k for 24-hr tech support from MANY smart people about MANY MS offerings... Good hell, MS is a really dumb bunch of folks to even attempt to change this deal with a crappy contract... They are nuts.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[cooldeals]

Again, you are talking about your rectum. I go to www.asp.net and dont see his sommunity linked to at all... back in the beta days it was... Seems like when the forums went up he disappeared from their site. Wanting maney? oh yeah, sure, give him 3k to pay for bandwidth and license... that is really WANTING maney. if he was greedy he would say give me 100K a year to run the lists. 3k? Get a freaking clue bone head.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[GBWorld]

First, while Charles may be ethical (I cannot comment on his ethics, as I have not dealt with him in busines ... have you?), remember that it was Charles who intiated the conversation to have Microsoft fund 100% of his site, not Microsoft. It was also his decision not to accept the deal, which is part of doing business.

Second, the ASP Friends list has helped him build his training business. While I cannot put a money value on how much his ASP Friends site has aided his business, only a fool would believe that it has had no beneficial impact. The problem with the site is it has became a sucking money hole, as it is become very popular. Because of this, Charles asked Microsoft to foot 100% of the bill and they asked for something in return for their money. Rather than negotiate, he took his case to the court of popular opinion, and there are plenty of people who would gladly take the case without all of the facts.

As for such a fine man, you obviously have not met Charles. He is prone to interrupting technical presentations to hawk books he has reviewed, as well as throw in his two cents. He is rather self-absorbed and very prone to temper tantrums. In conversations I had with him last year, he expressed complete disdain for any method of helping the community other than his lists, which I took as highly elitist. As such, I am not sure he is such an exemplary example of the open source spirit.

I do not deny the value of ASP Friends. While I personally find email lists to be annoying at times, the lists were well filtered. I am sure the lists will be missed. If he were serious about wanting to keep them up, he could have negotiated the contract details. However, I do not see that any of us that own sites DESERVE to get 100% support for nothing.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[imr]

remember that it was Charles who intiated the conversation to have Microsoft fund 100% of his site, not Microsoft.
That's not what i read:
We only moved 4 million messages a month in Classic ASP but at bequest of ASP.net team we added ASP.net lists and became 12 million messages per month within 3 months of starting our first ASP.net lists. Those 12 million messages meant I got an angry phone call from my ISP tripling my rates retroactively so I was suddenly confronted with an unexpected $8,000 additional expense thanks to supporting ASP.net. So I asked for Microsoft help to avoid closing down the ASP.net Beta1 lists. I could afford the Classic Lists but not ASP.net lists alone.

more:
(I cannot comment on his ethics, as I have not dealt with him in busines ... have you?)
There are other ways to look at one's ethic. I try to get it through his writing on his site.
If he were serious about wanting to keep them up, he could have negotiated the contract details.
unless he has an ethical problem in being treated that way by a company he had faith in and put of lot of work to support in.
That's what ethics is about, there's a point where you stop to compromise or lose all ethics.
However, I do not see that any of us that own sites DESERVE to get 100% support for nothing.
It's not about getting anything, it's about not losing what's intimately yours.
I guess that after he realised what he could expect in terms of help and respect from a company he helped and respected a lot, he lost all envy in continuing to support them.
Or maybe does he lie in his faq? But that i don't know. Do you have any more facts that make you think so?

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[GBWorld]

remember that it was Charles who intiated the conversation to have Microsoft fund 100% of his site, not Microsoft.

Your comment: That's not what i read:

From the portion you posted: So I asked for Microsoft help to avoid closing down the ASP.net Beta1 lists.

You are mixing the bequest to add ASP.NET lists and the request for money. Read the page again, only a bit more carefully.

There are other ways to look at one's ethic. I try to get it through his writing on his site. I have personally come in contact with Charles. Many years ago, he was a very nice person to talk to. Lately, he is a very self-consumed person and not very willing to listen to criticism or alternative views. This, of course, has nothing to do with ethics, but a posted marketing spiel is not a good indicator of ethics either.

Do you have any more facts that make you think so?
The dealing with Microsoft is not really an ethics issue. FACT: Charles contacted Microsoft to fund him (which is plainly shown in the snippet you posted, and which I personally know to be true). FACT: Microsoft funded him, either partially or completely for quite some time (this is also posted on his site). FACT: Microsoft agreed to fund him further, with some provisos. FACT: Charles chose to shut down rather than accept the provisos.

It is well within his right to shut down. It is also well within his right to blast Microsoft and blame them because they did not want to continue pumping money into the site without some guarantees. I believe, however, that your real reason for jumping in and blasting my comments is a personal animosity towards Microsoft, as the snippets you publish show that Charles asked for money, and not the other way around.

I do not drink Microsoft kool-aid. There are many things that they have done that I despise. I currently make money programming for their systems, but I have architected Java solutions, as well, and will move back if my market jumps off the Microsoft bandwagon. But, most of the comments on this board show a strong bias against Microsoft, which makes Charles the hero of the hour, despite the fact that he was holding all of the cards here. That, to me, shows a lot of people in SlashDot drink anti-Microsoft kool-aid.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[imr]

Well; i didnt react in such a spirit. I'm fairly against redmond, but am not on a fanatic stance.
If I had been that kind of extrem, I would have rejoiced over the event. Well, I didnt.
I just saw the work of one man being hurt by that way of making busines, as long as his feelings.
I really believe we're not reading the same text:
my interpretation of the events:
he manages the asp lists.
at microsoft request he adds .net list
bandwiths triples, isp ask to pay retroactively
he ask redmond to cover for this part of the fees
they do
suddenly he receives contract. there was never a word about it.
basicaly the said contract is arse rape.
that plus the fact that he realised that meanwhile they did no support his site with links and all.
At this point, if it wasnt an ethic problem, he would stop his .net list, and resume with the asp list, like he did and still can manage to do.

Also, maybe the real difference is that you don't believe that they could try to rip off him from his work. Look at this page:
http://www.iwethey.org/ed_curry/
and especially the little bit at the end:
In his words, "I still believe in MS products, but am increasingly concerned over how they are running the business side of things."
It really look like the words on the faq about Mr Carrols love of microsoft products.

I still believe that hard workers who believe in helping people, whatever their personnality is, gets better treatment in the open source community. Lower wages also.
But give me a fair open honnest microsoft any day you like. Until then, I will be against them, without fanatism and full of sympathy for those who suffer from their crushing habits.

Re:Too bad this man isnt in the free community

[Daniel Phillips]

I just wanted people to know why I closed, and what MS thinks is better. It would take a lot for me to "put the genie back in the bottle" - they have already shown their true faces in "out competing" a site that is trying to helpthem instead of co-operating with the many support options as I do.

Well, come on into our community, the water's fine. Your efforts will be appreciated.

At the risk of sounding naive

[Itsik]

What prevent Micro$oft from picking up the site after it is closed?

Re:At the risk of sounding naive

[aridhol]

Sure, they can try to pick up the site. But because the contract wasn't signed, they have no way to get the articles database without spidering through the entire site, and they can't get the users database period.

Re:At the risk of sounding naive

[CharlesCarroll]

Because I ain't penniless and I control the DNS/Internic records. I will keep the domain names forever and keep the story of the rise and fall there as a warning to others who build MS communities.

They can certainly do it under different domain names, but the Simpson's quote "that reeks of effort" comes to mind. They are being pretty lazy in the forums and while the code and interface are whizbang the human touch and effort is missing. Stealing it means running it and they prefer the forums not email and parallel newsgroups.

Re:At the risk of sounding naive

[bdan]

According to http://www.zoneedit.com/whois.html?zone=aspfriends .com,
it seems that the current owner owns the domain for another 2 years. This (paying the domain) is more inexpensive than actually running the web-site (as mentioned on the web-site, about 3000 usd/month).

Re:At the risk of sounding naive

[Anonymous Coward]

Whatever. The only reason that Microsoft has had the need to enforce a contract with Charles is that he has been completely manic depressive for the past year. This is the 4th time this year that he's threatened to shut down his site as a negotiating tactic with Microsoft to try and strongarm them into supporting him in ways not related to the funding of the site. This time they decided to call his bluff.

Think thats bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

I remember a few years ago I was a beta tested for some MS software. Bored one day, i checked out some of the beta EULA, and was horrorfied to see that I agreed to let MS take my computer and all software at whim for testing purposes. Yep, they could take my machine away from me if they wanted too.

I quickly got out of the beta program after that.

Re:Think thats bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and apple.com's terms of service allow them to take your house if you enter their site.

Sure.

I've seen the agreement and you are obviously incorrect.

Sweet dreams

[codexus]

So basically these guys made a website for ASP developers and expected Microsoft to be so thankful that they'll pay for it out of the greedyness of their hearts.

Sure, that could have worked:)

Re:Sweet dreams

[CharlesCarroll]

I don't care whether MS pays for it - their customers are affected mostly and it is one less thing for me to do each month :) I was going to close it a while ago for a varity of reasons and MS contacted me and insisted that it should stay and they wanted to support it through June of 2003 no strings attached. Then they chaed their mind. I am 100% fine with them not supporting it and breaking their promise, and the story ends in December and I am 100% fine with that. I just made the FAQ to let people know why it closes then. It affects 73,000 people and they deserve a true accounting as to why it closed. I learned a lot and invented a lot of new moderation tools like Our Moderate Tool and many useful private tools that make mailing list easy to manage. I intend to launch a bunch of very low volume lists using those tool in areas in non-MS ares I love that don't have such a large audience that the server capacity has to be so high and costly.

Microsoft MVPs

[0x0d0a]

This guy is complaining about what the MVP designation means...uh, no kidding it's politicized and inaccurate. It's a *marketing tool*. It has nearly zero real world utility -- it just gets MS free tech support workers. Hell, other companies should do this. "Maytag MVP".

Doing tech/dev assistance has always been amorphous. You earned the respect of the community through helping alone. Trying to control the process by controlling the database that marks people as "helpful" or not is doomed to failure.

Re:Microsoft MVPs

[lspd]

Mandrake Expert comes to mind.

Correction (Re:At the risk of sounding naive)

[aridhol]

Oops...because the contract wasn't signed, they can't force the owner to give them the database, so they can't get it without spidering.

RTFA

[gmhowell]

If someone was willing to buy it and continue it would you sell it?

The short answer is no. Since most companies that acquire AspFriends is likely to make changes to commercialize it or to make it a much worse place to get support. Because I created it in 1998 and ran it through 2002 most people would blame me for it's demise. I would rather have it close a winner now, than get acquired, ruined and then die a looser a few years later.

IOW, Caroll won't sell. As it seems he's already indicated to you:)

Microsoft's Response

[Skim123]

For those interested, Microsoft's response:
http://asp.net/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?tab index=1&Pos tID=88049

Re:Microsoft's Response

[CharlesCarroll]

You fedexed a contract last Thursday. The 12 month commitment you made in Feb did not mention a contract. The 12 month commitment started in June 2002 to June 2003. Do you always deliver your June 2002 contracts in mid-november 2002?

Scott Guthrie
406 posts in the forums since 6/15/2002.
16 posts in [aspngfreeforall] in whole year of 2002. Wow you and your people are really helping us thrive over here.

Rob Howard
10 posts in [aspngfreeforall] not to help but to announce
36 in [aspngcache]
733 posts in the forums since 6/8/222

Nuff said. Plus you have tons of people on the teams who NEVER POST HERE.

Re:Microsoft's Response

[Anonymous Coward]

> For those interested, Microsoft's response:
> http://asp.net/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?tabindex=1&Pos tID=88049

I tried that link and got:

"Error: Unknown forum
The forum you requested does not exist."

Re:Microsoft's Response

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a URL not a link dipshit.

Re:Microsoft's Response

[Unknown Relic]

Notice the additional space inserted into the URL. Here's a link to the reply from Microsoft: http://asp.net/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?tabindex=1&Pos tID=88049.

Please read this to get both sides of the story, it brings several items to light, including an overview of the purpose of the contact.

Re:Microsoft's Response

[CharlesCarroll]

Justin Wong nailed this one: http://www.aspfriends.com/search/MSG.ASP?msgid=753 489

Re:Microsoft's Response

[Anonymous Coward]

If Microsoft can be accurately reduced as an evil empire of blood thirsty lawyers and marketers, Charles Carroll can probably be accurately described as an expert in self promotion.

The under current of any content by Charles seems to be about Charles. Now he fancies himself to be a modern day John Galt.

I don't mean to rush to judgement against Charles. But I also hesitate to rush to judgement for Charles based on his interpretation. I also know he his amply capable of applying his own spin to make himself look really neat. Something I myself would not be above doing.

Reserve judgement until you are well acquianted with suffient facts, which none of us will probably have. There is a natural tendancy to assume the big company is really bad and the poor little guy is being crushed. The impression I get is Charles actively emitting propaganda of a similar calibre to what you would expect to come from Microsoft for whatever end he has in mind.

So what. I don't mean to be nasty to Charles because he could be right. But he has an agenda and a strategy that might not be quite as unselfish as they appear.

Re:Microsoft's Response

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the hell do you abuse Microsoft's employees on your site and lists? Why have you held your precious list members as hostages with threats of closing to extract cash? Why do you belittle the MVPs when you fought so hard to become one and get your buddies in (and quit before you were thrown out for grossly violating your non-disclosure agreement!)

You're running out of friends fast in this business. The only people who stay "loyal" to you are the false friends who use you for a free ride.

BTW, nice to see that you appointed yourself a Level II ASPElite. Grand Poobah, right?

Re:Microsoft's Response

[CharlesCarroll]

Levep II AspeLite means somesone who wrote a utility like http://www.aspfriends.com/search which is a front end I wrote to accompany Rob Caron's search. I wriote about 16 ASP and ASP.net Tools and designed and maintained others see http://www.aspfriends.com/aspfriends/moderatehow.a sp is for exam[le a tool I designed AND CODED PORTIONS thereof along with Feliope Coury and Brian Bilbro and Mac. The other Elite Level IiI wrote tools to earn that rank. I fought to get my desrving people (many of whom I am kot friendly with) MVP to improve MVP Quality in general. Level I Members answer questions. Level2 answered and wroite tools. Ask Benmi@microsoft.com (ASP.net MVP rep) if I was thrown out of MVPs. I was not, and have not violated ndas. I tried to quit 3 times and each time MS reps asked me to stay, and the 3rd time I decide to not take their advice and TO RESIGN!!!!

Re:Microsoft's Response

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you sure have nerve misleading the public like this!

Do you want someone to post the juicy Charles bits from MVPDiscuss, charlesteam, aspelite, aspace-moderators and aspaces-xxx, etc.?
Then the whole world could see what you did with Microsoft's money. They could also see how you grossly violated your non-disclosure agreement by reporting (and distorting) things that you learned from the MVP Summit. Would you like a sample of the things you said about *several* Microsoft employees, not just one.

No matter what you say, the reality is that the MVPs were going to throw you out but you bailed first. After shooting yourself in the left foot in the MVP program you've now taken out the right - and your chances of ever getting any cooperation from Microsoft. Of course since you make $500,000 a year as a trainer, I suppose you can retire any time. Check out the Sunday, November 17, 2002 entry here to see what people who know you think of you:

http://www.aaronbertrand.com/current.asp

You're dead meat in the ASP business due to your temper tantrums and megalomania. If you don't shut up and slink away, someone is going to reveal the extent of your meanness using your own words.

Remember: If you're going to rip dozens of people, hurt their feelings, and badmouth businesses (like Innerhost) behind their backs, expect that some of your Ace/Elites will turn you in when you stop giving them freebies. Today's your day, Mr. MVP-Wannabe/ASPElite Level II Grand Poobah.

Re:Microsoft's Response

[cooldeals]

You are such an idiot. All you do is blah blah blah. Charles got hosed. And he is sick and tired of the lies folks like you tell. Screw you and the horse you rode in on.

Re:Microsoft's Response

[Anonymous Coward]

So should we go ahead and post the messages including headers that prove that he regularly slanders people in his private forums? Ask him if he wants that!

Rand?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the image of the Rand book on the side of the closed website's front page? (I haven't read the book yet, is it relevant?)

Re:Rand?

[CharlesCarroll]

Atlas held the world on his shoulders. What if he shrugged and let the world fall? The book is amazing. It would spoil the story to give you details but buy the beek and read it and I will send you a check for it to reimburse you if you don't love it.

Re:Rand?

[Hobophile]

Most of the people who read the works of Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged in particular, either find them to be plodding, execrable works of philosophy thinly disguised as (bad) fiction, or become foam-mouthed crazies who believe that at last they have found the One True Faith. This last group tends to actively promote Rand's works at every opportunity: message boards, web pages, dinner parties; you name it, they'll be there, singing objectivism's praises.

My experience with Ayn Rand's works is as follows:

• I read Atlas Shrugged, cover to cover. If I were in a more cynical mood I might count this as an act of willpower unlikely to be duplicated in my lifetime. The premise is intriguing, the mystery ("Who is John Galt?") somewhat captivating, but the book is repetitive to the point of being nauseating. At this point I was somewhat ambivalent about Rand's theories, though I was thoroughly convinced that Rand herself believed them with a zeal unmatched by individuals of the sane persuasion.
• I read The Fountainhead. I actually enjoyed this book, as it had a plot, likeable characters, and a somewhat moving ending. It was a trifle theoretical but nowhere near Atlas Shrugged in those terms. I would still recommend Fountainhead to others.
• I attempted to read Atlas Shrugged again, out of intellectual perversity and sheer dogged-mindedness. I made it to about page 400 that time before swearing off of Rand forever.
• I read Terry Goodkind's Faith of the Fallen. In what could only be interpreted as nature's unfathomable attempt to get me to rescind my vow never to read another Ayn Rand book, Goodkind apparently decided to rewrite Fountainhead in a medieval setting, with the theoretical baggage of Atlas thrown in for good measure. I mention this because it is symptomatic of the fervor with which Rand true believers spread their gospel. To clarify: the best-selling author of a popular fantasy series wrote an entire book which mirrors Fountainhead in all essential elements, even down to the damn statue!

What I find most distasteful about Rand's theories is the disturbing tendency on the part of her and her followers to portray disagreements as wholly fallacious, if not precisely blasphemous. There is no meeting of the minds, no dialogue with the reader, no intellectual conversation made richer and fuller by the contributions of those with different experiences and novel ideas. If you find Rand's objectivism too harsh for your tastes, her world view has one place and one place only for you: lumped in with the rest of the heretics, the outsiders, the 'looters.'

My advice to you: read Fountainhead and leave it at that. Skip the religion and get the fable, and ignore those who claim you're missing out on the best part.

Many will tell you that Atlas changed their lives, or that it was the best work of literature ever created. Those people clearly did not have lives worth living before, or read very little after that phase in their lives I like to call "elementary school."

Just my $0.02. A little flamey, a little off-topic, but I hope it clarifies a few things that the other crazies replying to you will forget to mention.

It's About Who Owns Culture

[serutan]

The big mistake this guy made was a completely natural one: he confused culture with market share. In our society we place almost no value on non-owner participation. No matter what something may mean to you personally, no matter how much energy you may put into promoting it, no matter how much the owners materially profit from your efforts, it's still 100% theirs and 0% yours, and they can take it away from you at a whim.

Companies love you to be a cheerleader for Version 1 until Version 2 comes out, then you are supposed to abandon Version 1 and embrace Version 2. Britney is out, Samantha is in. Your website must shut down. Not because you did anything wrong. They just don't need you any more. You were an asset, now your loyalty to their previous products is competition. You're in the way.

Save your loyalty and devotion for your family and friends, your ideals and your personal standards -- the parts of your culture that can't be owned by others or taken away.

Lessons learned.....

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

"at our discretion, with 30 days notice we can terminate this contract and take ownership of your site".

Thanks for doing business with Microsoft. Behavior like this is the best way to get people to convert to open source. It was in my case. I was contracted to do a database for an embassy and when I took it to the embassy, page fault errors. Called M$, got charged for what was essentially their defect.

I switched to open source, and haven't looked back and I have happier customers.

Re:Lessons learned.....

[Anonymous Coward]

And _THEY_ are worried about our viral GPL!

Microsoft:
All your codes belong to us.

ASPNG lists

[glh]

I use these lists regularly. On more than one occasion, they have saved me countless hours (and days even) when I have had some sort of unusual technical question. In fact, these lists are somewhat of a "security blanket". The news groups are a lot slower, more impersonal. Back in the beta days, many of the MS project team would answer questions on the lists. I've personally corresponded with authors of books, presenters, and other experts. I'm going to be really bummed if and when they go down. I also find these lists very useful as a .NET User Group leader where I can announce my meetings in the community list.

Anyway, I've kind of been taking a back seat and watching the responses. It seems like its basically a battle between MS and Charles Carrol, the list owner. Actually, Charles hasn't really said anything as of yet since he has been in Florida, but according to Scott Guthrie (the MS founder/expert on ASP among other .NET topics, and a great guy in general), Charles didn't want to accept the terms of the MS agreement (he went to MS in the first place because he could no longer fund the list- costs about $3K per month).

A lot of people are guessing he didn't want to accept because of one of the clauses-- saying how MS gets the list if it closes. A quote from Scott's email:

Over the course of the last few days, Charles has refused to reply to
our emails, and has immediately hung up on us the two times we've been
able to get through to him on the phone.

We've had a long association with Charles and respect the work he's done
with the community, so it's distressing to the team and to me personally
that Charles has chosen this path.


What is suprising to me is that a bunch of people on the list (over 70K people total on the list) are offering to pony up $20. Kloberg Mac, apparently a close friend of Charles, has said the following:

The reason Charles hasn't responded yet is because he's currently in Florida, teaching a class.

He wanted me to let you know, that although your willingness to save AspFriends is appreciated,

*** PLEASE DO NOT SEND ANY DONATIONS AT THIS TIME ***

I'm sure he will comment in more detail later...


Regardless of what happens, this is a MAJOR PR issue for MS. I think it needs to be resolved as QUICKLY as possible. A lot of people are starting to get really peaved at MS. I question why they got involved in the first place. Even though the group is obviously benefitting MS, I really don't think Charles should have went to MS. Getting money from MS (or any company for that matter) is going to have some strings attached!

Unfortunately I cannot think of a great solution to this. I suppose paypal donations are one way, but even that means there is no guarantee that the 3K bill would be paid each month. Requiring donations or a subscription means that you lose out on a lot of the experienced techies who are contributing as well as the newbies who are looking to learn. Losing either means a critical hit (techies in terms of answering questions, newbies in terms of growing the list).

On the other hand, if MS starts a mailing list, it will be percieved as totally biased and probably have stringent rules. Example: no bashing MS products or MS people. People want "freedom of speech" and an independent list means that.

Meanwhile, I'll be watching the activity and will try to post updates to this thread as it unfolds.

Re:ASPNG lists

[CharlesCarroll]

http://www.aspfriends.com/search/MSG.ASP?msgid=754 337 is my reply. http://www.aspfriends.com/search/MSG.ASP?msgid=724 672 explains why I don't see my kids much and my time to deal with MS nonsense is limited in Dec -Feb when my kids are home (since MS promised no strings attached funding through June 2003 in Feb 2002 I didn't expect any strings or contracts and I suddenly got a Fedex contract a few days ago by surprise literally). MS should not have promised in Feb 2002 no strings funding June 2002 - June 2003 if they were adding strings later. I could have had time to review the contract or quit before June if they sent me contracts earlier. They did pay June 2002 - Dec 2000 without strings as per half of their Feb promise and first contract I saw was in Dec so if this contract was so vital why wasn't it presented to me prior to June? I got it Fedex a few days ago in Late Nov!

Re:ASPNG lists

[glh]

The week I am in Tokyo I have 3 months of catching up on playing with my
kids and I don't want to review contracts or mod messages i just want to
play with my kids (not answer 30 emails a day from [AspElite] who think all
tools have to be bug free and I have to fix some urgent missing list
description or mispelled footer) and when I bring them home I want to play
with them both for many weeks I miss them so much and have evening classes
on ASP.net to teach too. This ASPFRIENDS stuff is huge task and aint
getting smaller.


It sounds like you are in definite need of a break, and I commend you on having the guts to take it. When it all comes down to it, the things that we will look back on are not our accomplishments in technology/work but where it matters.. family, friends, etc. I'll be praying for you and your family! I hope things go well from here on, and of course, thanks much for hosting the lists as long as you did. I'm definitely bummed to see them go but I'm sure there will be other ways for us ASPr's to connect in the community.

Re:ASPNG lists

[cooldeals]

Enjoy your family Charles. That is most important above all.

would be funny

[Anonymous Coward]

would be funny to redirect the URL to www.php.net ;o)

Developers!

[Anonymous Coward]

DEvelopers! DeVelopers! DeveLopers! Developers! DeVelopers! Developers! Developers! DeVelopers! DeveLopers! Developers! DeVelopers! Developers! DeVelopers! DEvelopers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers!

<Skeptical> Yeah, riiiiiiight!</Skeptical>

Lameness filter passer:
adasd asdasd asdasd etwe rdsv asd ewqre f faa dere dsf fgfgg dfgdf sdf awr b jt asd er ds gre y adf er we wer dxv dfh rywe sdg
f g ewt h da rywr asdg et dgfwetew fsdf sdfds fwertw sdf hwr q hasd er excb adgewgegsad etyw h rr sg er r sg sdfh ra sg g 454 6 424 8654 fg sdfg
ef fdsgfsfsdf 654123 84 fgfd gfdgsgsf 4684 5sd sdf 4245 4 54 wdf s f 33 w df sdf 3 3 ds f sdf sd gf gd aere df dsf kjsdf er asdf r fg sadr4e g erte rsdf h wer tsdg fdhy5r egrgfg

unfortunate

[Anonymous Coward]

The way I see it, it is unfortunate that this story came out.

I don't think Microsoft should be blamed totally. It seems they initially wanted to help. They seem to have donated a lot of money to the site. I don't blame them for trying to protect their investment. Without their help the site would have gone down sooner.

The contract of course sounds ridiculous. No person would sign that contract and allow MS (or any other company) the opportunity to take control of their work without compensation.

Mr. Carroll had no choice but not to accept it. Obviously he made the decision anyone else would make.

If anything, the lists should be funded by the people who use them, us, the developers who use the list to find information and help everyday. It should be us who fund the list. Not Microsoft, not Mr. Carroll.

If you invested in a company wouldn't you expect a return? I think it was very bad form of Microsoft to present such a contract, but they shouldn't be bashed for it. Any company would do the same.

Mr. Carroll is also not the "poor small guy being crushed by the Evil Microsoft Empire" as a lot of people seem to be saying. He holds all the power here. He controls the lists, the domain, the information, the users. If he wanted to he could find some way to continue the list.

It's not Microsoft's responsibility to support the lists. It would be nice if they did and great for the community, but they shouldn't be condemned if they don't.

I feel MS shouldn't have written the contract in such a threatening manner, but other than that, if the list goes on it goes on, if the list ends, it ends.

If we wanted the lists to go on we should have helped fund it ourselves. It's our fault that the list is closing not Mr. Carroll's and not Microsoft's.

Realnames

[theolein]

This reminds me of the realnames debacle with MS screwing the guy over although he was making a profit or possibly BECAUSE he was making a profit. MS make some very easy to use tools, most notably VS with VB and VC++ and ASP. However they are a bunch of thieving bastards and the way MS behaves one would that those scum in sales and marketing would gladly sell their mothers if it brought a buck or two into MS' tills.

It seems, given that the only two parts of MS to actually make a profit are the parts that have the world's computers in a vice grip, and the others that can't do the same lose atrocious amounts of money, that MS is actually shit scared that the last two bastions will fall also and they will start to bleed money and eventually die as a company. I think that MS can be trusted to fuck it up and try to squeeze more control out of customers even though that is the very reason the customers are leaving in the first place.

What is this doing here?

[mdechene]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this isn't "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." Especially that last part.

What about responding to Microsoft's allegations?

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft's response to this controvery suggests that the Draconian terms were to protect themselves from Charles Carroll's childishness!

Look at this from Microsoft's Scott Guthrie and tell me if there isn't another side to this story:

"To make clear that while we were paying the bill, Charles should not publicly disparage or harass individual Microsoft employees, something he has done several times over the past year. Some of the comments were personal and disruptive enough that we asked him to refrain from such activity."

Also, the contract terms tried to protect the resource from a guy who throws a tantrum when he doesn't get his way and threatens to shut his lists down as a form of blackmail:

"Over the last 12 months Charles has on four different occasions threatened to close the listserv for reasons having nothing to do with our support for ASPFriends. He even carried through on his threat once and shut the list signups down for two days. "

Is this is true? If so, Carroll is a Web site/list owner who is abusing his position, harassing people, and trying to get MS to pay for it!

What say you now?

Re:What about responding to Microsoft's allegation

[John R. O'Brien]

You know, I gotta say what fun sport this actually is, seeing this played out on the lists for all to see, really is cool.

I'm on the asp lists that charles runs and I do like them.

I have noticed that since this has started with the FAQ posted to the various lists on aspfriends that charles has made no additional posts there. In fact, the entire aspelite has been rather quite. Of course, the rabble has had their day with all kinds of ideas being kicked around, I truly enjoy reading some of it, again some great sport there as well. The real work of the lists has taken a back seat lately, I guess in preparation for the final day.

Charles has had some time to post here though. I guess when aspfriends is a goner, if you're posting for prosperity, then it will need to go here for the future generations.

All I can see is that the public information is not enough to make any informed decision on what has happended.

However, it sure is good sport, I wonder how it will end.

I doubt if Scott Guthrie will respond again in public. And Charles, no doubt, has his agenda to further by doing just that, as we have seen.

You know, part of being microsoft is taking your lumps too. And there are plenty of microsoft employees who deserve public harrassment, not to mention disparaging remarks. If they don't want those types of comments posted about their employees then maybe there should be some corporate guidelines for their employees concerning customer service, in stead of some "I rule the world from Bill Gates' coat tails" 'tude; that as a paying customer, I sure as hell don't need. But I see this problem more in the field, that is consulting ranks, than persons that I have meet in Redmond.

But, you know, I would have just taken my pen, like I do with any contract, redlined the shit that didn't make any sense, initialed my changes, maybe upped the price a bit for jacking me around, and fedexed the damm thing back saying initial my changes and it's a deal. This is where I think charles has an agenda not yet played out in public. He has other reasons for shutting down the service as well. And who can blame him for that, not me.

I do look forward to the public information, or misinformation to continue.

Thanks to all parties, or litigants, or whatever the case may utimately be.

Very truly yours,

John

Microsoft's bureau of information spin

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft DOES censor and attempt to punish those that even discuss bugs with their products. I have a friend who is a MVP for a product, and he got a private lecture that he was putting his designation in danger when discussing problems and bugs in a forum.

People want to be an MVP for free product and perhaps something to put out beside their name, but I know that they sign away freedom to discuss concerns and bugs in public. I discount anything a MVP says. I think it stands for Microsoft-vacuumlipsuctionedtoass-person. You can't believe what they say in terms of reliablity of MS products, because they are compensated with freebies and a designation to keep their mouths shut and to look the other way.

I found out how MS has a nazi hold on other companies when I tried to sell MS - full license software on ebay. It was legal to do so, and I did so for many years until 2 years ago, when ebay disallows the legal sell of legal MS software, because they report that MS reported you to ebay as a software criminal, and you are guilty before trial. You have to appeal this decision, not with ebay, but with Microsoft. Guilty before charged.

Yikes!

[hackus]

Yikes!

I am not interested in .Net development, I only study it to determine what sort of progress Microsoft is making with regards to its absolutely obsessive nature to destroy Java and "code reusability" technology that is platform independant.

But when I seen the side post about .Net I was naturally interested.

I am continually surprised, if not left agast, by the continual self destructive nature, not only of the architecture and design of a lot of .Net's components, but of Microsoft's seeming death wish with regards to how it regards its customers.

Honestly, in my pursuit of companies during the past year I have started my own company with regards to software development, I always seem to find a post about MS that makes my sales job a dream.

That sales job is convincing companies to dump, what I consider "old school IT policy" and consider something I call Open Systems Engineering Best Practices. Which builds IT systems companies actually OWN THEMSELVES. Lots of companies don't even know they can do this, and are surprisingly shocked and astounded when I point this out and what it means to even HAVE an IT department in your organization with an OSE philosophy.

I think, in recent SEC filings, it is quite obvious, that MS would be in serious, if not fighting for its life, if it wasn't being protected by the US government. So far MS has been able to pay the bills in washington to the right people, so it remains a monopoly that is legal, and can fund itself in some of the worst economic times in the past 10 years in the US.

Meanwhile, I continue to Microsoft were it hurts, and more and more companies everyday are recognizing the huge Penguin ARMADA that is gathering in "Rebel Space" to take out the Microsoft Death Star. :-)

We shall use the open source, and we shall prevail.

-Hack

Re:What about responding to Microsoft's allegation

[CharlesCarroll]

Any person who is redlines a contract written by a legal staff the size and intellect of Rdmonds and does not pay for a very good attorney to examine it is not a businessman.

I am not stupid enough to redline or sign a contract that large without paying for professional advice.

Microsoft sent this contract at a busy time of year for me and totally by surprise (I am not at home for next 2 months and am picking up my 2.5 and 4.5 year old kids in Japan and wife and spending quality time with my kids in December I have not seen for 4 months).

Normally one signs contracts to gain benefits. The $18,000 promised if that contract is signed is given to an ISP not to me (i get $0 if the contract is signed) and benefits the 70,000 people not me. I can't really sign on behalf of the 70,000 without those people hating me (the contract for example allows MS to won all emails sent to list).

So I ain't redlining a MS contract as an amateur, I WOULD HIRE A LAWYER to revise it if I wanted to stay in December. But I see much risks in signing the contract in any form a $1k to $2k lawyer bill at lest given the complexity of the contract or a $0 bill if I don't sign and just drop out and spend time with my kids instead of a lawyer.

As a businessman I don't sign contracts unless I get something, and I don't obligate 70,000 people I don't know to terms I can't disclose automatically when they join the list. I am happy to not sign it, not revise it, and get out of helping their users in December.

Re:What about responding to Microsoft's allegation

[CharlesCarroll]

The below is 100% True I only criticized two MS employees IN A PRIVATE LIST not a public one and some unscrupolous people forwarded it. One of those people was quite ticked I had the gall to criticize him privately and formulate do contract perhaps because HE THOUGHT I said so publicly. A search of every message at http://www.aspfriends.com/search will not turn up me insulting a MS employee. I mostly just answer questions.

The proposed contract is off the web. Mirror?

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like faq.aspx is off the web. Anybody got a mirror?

Re:What about responding to Microsoft's allegation

[John R. O'Brien]

Your point is well taken Charles. Competent Legal representation is important.

I just like to think I know what's up....

.. because, my dad's a lawyer, my godfather is a lawyer, my neighbor's a lawyer, my good friend's wife is a lawyer, I workered at a law firm for 10 years until I graduated college in computer science and in fact; I can't heave a dead cat without hitting a lawyer...

and you're right, in contract law you do need competent legal representation. And your recognition of that fact will only benefit you.

Thanks for the response and good luck to you. John

Premier?

[Anonymous Coward]

What makes it the "Premier" site? The fact that it makes a more shocking headline?

This site is an eyesore

[kashmirzoso]

who cares if it goes away, there are plenty of other good .NET sites available.