CDMA 2000 1x Comes to India

nilesh writes "Yesterday, Reliance Infocomm launched one of the largest CDMA networks in the world [Google news]. This wireless network will cover 90% of India's population on a backbone of 60,000 kms of optic fibre. They have dreams of providing an Internet-enabled Java-powered CDMA2000 1x phone to almost every Indian citizen for around tariffs as low as 40 paise per minute or 0.8 cents per minute. The Samsung/LG/Kyocera phones will be replete with applications ranging from internet banking to video on demand and online gaming. Now all we need is Quake for Java and we'll have college kids playing deathmatches with each other in classroom at 144kbps. The next game revolution is in sight."

Comments

Possible?

[ancukiewiczd]

"for around tariffs as low as 40 paise per minute or 0.8 cents per minute. " Somehow, I doubt such a plan would succeed. Is such a low tariff even possible, much less for this kind of expensive service?

Re:Possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

What I would like to know is what kind of latency one should expect in 3G networks. It seems impossible to get reliable information about this.

I can't understand what anyone would use the high bandwidth to but low latency is critical for games and other interactive software.

Anyone knows?

Re:Possible?

[atlantis_tin]

Somehow, I doubt such a plan would succeed. Is such a low tariff even possible, much less for this kind of expensive service?

Reliance is a fairly old but very successful company. I have been following news about them for several years and have never seen them do anything that is both big and naïve. While I cannot say that people come first for them, surely business and money do.

These are at least some of the reasons why we should expect costs of telecom services to be low in India:

Technology - The infrastructure was built practically from scratch in the last 6-7 years. Even regular phone service coverage was around 4-5%. As opposed to the US, which has been building its infrastructure over much a longer period - laying copper and then fiber. India is starting with fiber for which the cost-per-bit is very low. IIRC, Reliance built its fiber optic network in the last 3-4 years.

Labor costs - One of the biggest costs in building infrastructure is labor. But labor is very cheap in India. I expect labor wages to be around USD30 per month.

Competition - There is a lot of competition, the other major players are Bharati, TATA, and the government (yes, the government is in this too). So, including Reliance that makes it at least four major competitors. There are some small companies (BPL, Birla, Satyam, etc. - don't know what happened to Worldtel) too but so far they have not had any major impact.

And all this is the exact opposite of what you see in the US. So...

Re:Possible?

[andrewski]

Sure, if they jack up the prices in more developed nations. The pharmaceutical companies do it all the time.

Re:Possible?

[InfiniteWisdom]

Reliance is an Indian company without significant presence in other countries

Re:Possible?

[Combuchan]

Yes. Leap Wireless, also known as Cricket Communications offers unlimited local calling on their CDMA 2000 1XRTT network (tho almost all phones on said network are CDMA 2G) for US$32.99 a month, taxes and features such as insurance, caller ID, voicemail, and SMS bring my bill to US$52.99 a month, every month--and that's without a contract.

Once you get rid of the expensive fluff known as a Customer Care department that would otherwise take calls from angry customers bitching about being overcharged on their bills and make other cost-cutting measures, the cell phone dollar can be indeed stretched very far.

Re:Possible?

[dracken]

Welcome to India. 40 paisa per minute (1.20 per 3 mins) is what will convince me to look at cell phones as a viable alternative to my fixed phone. You forget that an average middle class indian earns around 300 USD per month. The food, labor, electricity and stuff in dollar terms are CHEAP. So apart from an initial investment in infrastructure, Reliance operating cost with be a pittance in US terms.

Cell phones made their real entry into india about 3 years back and look at the rates now (airtel is one of the biggest cell phone operators now) remember that about 50 rupees = 1 USD. It is bound to go down further.

Reliance has it right (reliance is a HUGE company by indian terms and is equivalent of GE, Shell, MS put together). More over they offer WLL (wireless in local loop) for cell phone access within cities and more for roaming. So this cost is perfectly reasonable.

Re:Possible?

[balloonhead]

I think this is an excellent idea. Who cares about TB, poverty, high infant mortality, and potential nuclear war with your neighbours if you can play cheap networked Quake on your phone?

It is all very well to say that there is such a large population that a tariff like this might be feasible. But outside the major cities, would they want it, or even care about it?

Priorities, people.

Re:Possible?

[b96miata]

Latency, and in fact bandwidth, is very very similar to dialup. Granted it's been a while since I had dialup for me to remember and compare, but I'll put it like this. With so-so signal, 1x is like semi-crappy dialup (which I was cursed with for sooo long), i.e. a bad phone line that forever connects at 26.4. With good signal, it is on a level with and will surpass a good 56k connection. That's my experience using my phone & data cable with Vision, hooked up to my laptop. The line speed is 144kbps. It's not as solid or low latency as a 144k idsl line, but its better than any dialup I've ever had. Sub 300ms latencies are normal, but you can't really count on 100ms. This may improve when they come out with 1x rev. A, but that remains to be seen. No wireless connection can really ever hope to compete with wired latencies.

Re:Possible?

[anandsr]

Ever tried to call your near and dear ones. I think you must have. Does it occur to you that poor people also want to do that. Do you think communication is only good for people who have nothing better to do than chat. Poor people can also use information, which will make them more efficient. This service will be a godsend for the people in the villages who don't have any phones for miles around.

And by the way this is being offered by a private corporation not the govt. So they are under no obligation to eradicate TB poverty etc. We are thankful that they have done something like this, which the govt should have done anyway.

Re:Possible?

[balloonhead]

I am not saying that they should not have this facility - what I am saying is that the priorities are wrong. A similar investment could sort out a lot of humanitarian problems. The bottom line is that a lot of these people you speak of who live in villages with no phones around don't know anyone outside the villages, so they don't need phones, and would much rather have a safe water supply.

The fact that this is being offered by a private company does not make it any different. It just means that they are after a profit. The same money that would have otherwise been used for essentials is now used for a luxury.

I'm not saying this won't benefit anyone - to the relatively affluent, this will be great. But the problem is, the vast majority are not affluent, and this may just make the rich-poor divinde even wider.

I assume you are from India. You have internet access, so you are one of these relatively affluent people I am speaking about. Of course you will be glad to be able to get cheap phone calls. The point is that most people in your country don't care if they are cheap or expensive, they don't use them.

Re:Possible?

[Anonymous Coward]

CDMA will rule.

web page models (of the human kind)

[johnot]

Looks like they didn't have enough Indian models for all the bullet points...

Where is your directed advertising, RI?!

I could care less about massive bandwith.

[garcia]

I just want a cell phone network where frequent call drops, long wait times, and low signal strength are common.

I live 15 miles from the city center of Minneapolis. I get a call dropped between 5 and 10 mins every day (granted I use it during peak times) but I don't see why this should happen.

While I believe what India is doing is a Good Thing, I just want a Good Thing to happen here in the US for cell phone service.

I use the cell phone for very little other than the "free" LD after 9 and on weekends.

Let's make the service better here in the US before we start saying that we want more bandwith.

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[dirkdidit]

I just want a cell phone network where frequent call drops, long wait times, and low signal strength are common.

Oh come on, they invented that network years ago and it's still in use today. ;)

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[Emil Brink]

I just want a cell phone network where frequent call drops, long wait times, and low signal strength are common.

Um, OK... Aha... So, well, I guess you should stay in the US, then? :) *Ducks*.

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[Rogerborg]

If you could care less, why are you bothering to talk about it?

Or perhaps you couldn't care less, but you're too lazy and ignorant to think about what you're typing, in which case why should we care about whatever you've got to say?

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[Anonymous Coward]

they? Don't you mean Al Gore?

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[garcia]

you obviously can't read.

He's talking about how it doesn't matter to him if the US ever upgrades BANDWITH on cell phone service.

He wants quality service before worrying about how fast data is xferred.

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[shepd]

>Or perhaps you couldn't care less, but you're too lazy and ignorant to think about what you're typing, in which case why should we care about whatever you've got to say?

Read my last flame on someone who said this before. It is ambiguous either way you say it. Unless you mean to say that he couldn't care less, or, in other words, he wouldn't want to violate his principle that it is so important that caring less would be a great loss for him.

HTH. And next time quit being a prick. It doesn't look good on you.

[ Hey, wait a minute, it seems that telling people your misnomers for what is barely a speedbump in the english language is your new passtime. Maybe mine should be correcting you each time! Fun, fun, fun! Because I hate grammarians! Especially when they can be corrected! ]

[ Hey, wait another minute. You never bothered to reply to me last time! Could you care less? Or not? ]

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[falzer]

Sometimes I care very little, but could care less, for a modest fee.

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[pihl]

If you going to play Quake then...

Real problem with these mobile networks (GSM/GPRS/CDMA/WCDMA-3G-UTMS) is NOT bandwith.

The problem is latency. I have seen that in GPRS network roundtrip times are more that 1 (one) second. So mobile networks are not ideal for realtime-online-multiplayer-games.

TCP/IP protocol also works pretty bandly in this high-ping environment with standard parameters. TCP/IP is made for quite low-ping networks where you roundtrip-times are more like 0.01 seconds than 1+ seconds. Mobile (or any telephone) networks are not really done for handling (big) packet-switched data, but for circuit switched audio.

So operators and manufacturers talking (bul*-s****ing) about "massive bandwidth", which
is actually quite unusable because of this latency problem.

-pihl

Re:I could care less about massive bandwith.

[Rogerborg]

Do you understand the difference between "could" and "couldn't"? Do you know what "opposite" means?

We really need some Sesame Street level remedial language classes here.

waste of money?

[MoceanWorker]

They have dreams of providing an Internet-enabled Java-powered CDMA2000 1x phone to almost every Indian citizen for around tariffs as low as 40 paise per minute or 0.8 cents per minute.

I hate to flame, but this obviously will not work.. this is a very idealistic approach at trying to help a poverty stricken society keep up with the times.. i mean, most of them don't even have a television set probably and here they are.. cell phones being given to the people.. this is a huge jump for these people, and besides there are many other issues to deal with in India (health wise, primarily) than hoping that every citizen in India will have their own cell phone..

Re:waste of money?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cell phones are of little TRUE cost. They are a cheap item marked WAY up.

It was an obvious flame. Think before you speak please.

Re:waste of money?

[aut0mator]

it is sad that people cannot see pass the poverty of a people. should the fact that they're poor preclude them from being able to reap the benefits of modern technology. granted, money needs to be earmarked for them to be fed and clothed, but do not assume they cannot use technology to better their lives

Re:waste of money?

[MoceanWorker]

Cell phones are of little TRUE cost. They are a cheap item marked WAY up.

oh really? if that's the case, then how come a majority of the people living in this country still don't have cell phones.. oh and factoring in that AT&T gives away free phones with the cheapest service of being $29.99/month?

Think before YOU speak, Anonymous Idiot

Re:waste of money?

[MoceanWorker]

oh i apologize.. and by THIS country.. I mean the United States of America..

Re:waste of money?

[Anonymous Coward]

In undeveloped countries, it is often cheaper to lay a little cable and have cell towers than to send wire to each and every house. Granted, broadband service seems to be a bit much, but there is also a chance that broadband seemed more attactive to initial investors.

Re:waste of money?

[atlantis_tin]

i mean, most of them don't even have a television set probably and here they are.. cell phones being given to the people..

While I understand that health and education are more important than cell phones, TV is surely not.

Cheaper and easier communication has significant economic benefits. Considering how bad and expensive phone services have been in India (highest domestic long-distance rates in the world!) there is a vast potential to reduce friction from life and business. At the low rates being offered by all the new phone companies a large number of people will be able to benefit from this technology. Information will propagate faster; time and distance between places and people will be reduced.

Re:waste of money?

[benwb]

2/3 of americans own cell phones.

Re:waste of money?

[Anonymous Coward]

[different AC]

Well, when I say virtually every other country, I mean a lot of modern countries in Europe and Asia.
In virtually every other country, I'd say that ~70-80% of the population has a cell phone. Expense isn't why Americans don't have them. It's because it hasn't caught on like it has everywhere else (and service here is suckier than most other places.) Here's where I put the acronym "IMHO".

Re:waste of money?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that was pretty obvious. Only an American would be so ignorant and arrogant to talk as if everyone lived in his country.

Re:waste of money?

[metlin]

You are wrong, and have no idea how wrong you are.

This has absolutely nothing to do with helping the poor, or trying to get a phone to a beggar in India. It has everything to do with the fact that Reliance is providing the right service at the right time.

Reliance is not just a J Random company in India. Reasons why this will be a killer service in India.

They have done their groundwork beautifully well. They have been laying fiber optic all over the country, for quite a while, and have enormous clout. As an example, where other providers have so far been unsuccessful in getting govt. clearance for certain services in India, it looks like Reliance will not be having that problem.

Reliance is using existing technology customised for India, at the Indian Inst. of Technology Madras. Details here.

You have NO idea the way the demand for bandwidth for both voice and data is growing in India. Want figures? Find them here.

Do you know the proposed cost of deployment of RIL's telecom plan? You pay Rs.3000 initially ($60) and Rs.600 monthly ($12) you get the instrument and the service, but will have to service for a period of 3 years, as part of the Rs.600 will go towards your instrument. Just look at their pricing schemes.

In fact, pricing is one of the reasons why Reliance will succeed. Reason? They chose NOT to use GSM as the initial cost is high, but wanted to help atleast the middle class.

If you still are not convinced, goto Chaoszone, run by cygnusx. He has been keeping track of this for a long time, and has very interesting links on the current scenario and WHY this WILL work.

You are forgetting one very basic point. Yes, India has poverty to handle, but you do not solve it by denying all other technology, atleast that's what your attitude sounds like. There is a significant chunk of the middle class for whom the rates that reliance offers is EASILY affordable, and that comes to a significant portion of the population of a billion.

Read this interview with Mukesh Ambani. Forget quality, they'll see gold through quantity. And that is exactly what Reliance is banking on.

And as a geek, I sure as hell hope they do, am looking forward to getting one of their J2ME enabled thingys ;-)

Re:waste of money?

[DAldredge]

So Reliance know who to bribe and by how much?

Re:waste of money?

[metlin]

With that kind of clout, they don't need to. :-)

Re:waste of money?

[silverbolt]

Ok, I am way tired of this constant crap of "but they don't have healthcare, they don't have food, blah blah....", everytime some developing country tries to make a technological advance. Do you live in some kind of utopia ? Does every citizen have to have all their basic and not-so-basic needs fulfilled before their country can think of spending money in defence or technology ? WTF ?

Science always advances. Technology makes inroads. The aim is to make lives easier for *most* people, not *all* people. Even the US has not been able to ensure that each of its citizens have their basic needs met, or that the fruits of technology have reached all.

So the next time you hear a story about India or Jordan or Brazil or any other developing country trying to improve the life of its citizens, try to be understanding, if not a cheerleader. And quit your high-horse!

Re:waste of money?

[pumpkinescobarsof2]

one of the most informative responses i've read here. thx

Re:waste of money?

[FFFish]

Even the US has not been able to ensure that each of its citizens have their basic needs met, or that the fruits of technology have reached all.

I think you meant especially the US hasn't...

Re:waste of money?

[leandrod]

> NOT to use GSM as the initial cost is high

Perhaps I am missing something...

How the open standard, high-volume GSM is more expensive than the proprietary, royalty-ridden, lower-volume CDMA?

In Brasil people are complaining every day that government has chosen TDMA and CDMA over the cheaper, standard GSM.

And with GPRS, GSM get the same data transfer speeds as CDMA.

Re:waste of money?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cheapest service is less than $7/mo:

http://www.ecallplus.com

The fifty minute card needs to be renewed every three months. It works out to be very expensive if you use the phone regularly (0.40/min), but very good for emergency/occasional use since you can keep your phone active for less than $7/mo.

Re:waste of money?

[MillionthMonkey]

I hate to flame, but this obviously will not work.. this is a very idealistic approach at trying to help a poverty stricken society keep up with the times.. i mean, most of them don't even have a television set probably and here they are.....besides there are many other issues to deal with in India (health wise, primarily) than hoping that every citizen in India will have their own cell phone.

This is really just a variation of another bankrupt argument that never seems to go away despite being refuted over and over again:

"How can we even talk about space exploration while there is so much suffering here on earth?"

Of course, we get to have cellphones in this country because our poor people have TV sets!

How do you know that cellphones won't stimulate India's economy? Should all industries there be suppressed until a large middle class develops? Remember that while India is mostly known for its poor people, the people in its upper classes are filthy rich and would be more than willing to fork over some rupees every month for good cellphone coverage.

(BTW don't take the "freak" icon personally- you must have said something a long time ago that pissed me off but frankly I have no idea what anymore. I also have no idea what I said to get my own collection of fans and freaks. Being able to associate a specific post with a friend/foe assignment would be a nice Slashcode feature.)

Re:waste of money?

[Vendekkai]

This is part of the hype that Reliance has been selling in India.

Both CDMA and GSM/GPRS cost about the same to roll out. In addition, as you point out, there are no royalties for GSM. There is some debate about efficient use of spectrum, but I haven't seen anything that seriously tilts in favour of one technology over the other.

However, in India, CDMA is cheaper because the CDMA operators have got better licensing terms than the GSM operators. This is purely political, aided by Reliance's clout. The GSM operators are suing to get equivalent terms, and if they do, they will offer similar pricing.

Re:waste of money?

[Anonymous Coward]

Very mature of you moron, he made a mistake.. get over it.. boohoo

Re:waste of money?

[Argon]

Very Simple. In India the GSM License is way more
expensive than CDMA for providers. Don't ask me
why. But that's how things are right now.

Re:waste of money?

[bonginsg]

Reliance is a huge, listed, petro-chemical company. They are the largest listed company in India. They are not in the business of charity. They are in the business of making money. Their business plan for this launch is hard-nosed and focussed on making money. It is not altruistic. Their vision is to : - provide a phone to every citizen at low tariffs - AND make money on every subscriber There is no government intervention / funding on this project. So there is no question of public funds being spent on providing cell phones to citizens when they should instead be spent on poverty alleviation. Surely, living in a capitalist economy like the US, you agree that a corporate has the right to invest its money in whatever venture that it may decide, will bring the greatest returns.

Re:waste of money?

[cygnusx]

How the open standard, high-volume GSM is more expensive than the proprietary, royalty-ridden, lower-volume CDMA?

For GPRS to work, spectrum has to be dedicated to data and voice separately. Existing GSM providers need to license more spectrum (this costs big money), have to upgrade their equipment and convince users to change handsets to support 2.5G ("GPRS"). Considering that they are all in the red, it ain't going to be easy. CDMA providers can provide voice+data over the same spectrum.

Because 3G deployments in Europe and Japan so far have been less than successful.

Because CDMA 2000 1X is coming with a massive second mover advantage, at a time when people need higher data rates from their mobile, and the GSM folk can't given them that quickly, the operative word being 'quickly'.

I agree a GSM-based high-speed standard would have been better. But the only way high-speed GSM would have taken off in India was if someone built a W-CDMA (which is the air interface for high speed GSM) network from scratch, and given European and Japanese experience with W-CDMA 'til now, I'd excuse any business for being slightly scared about this :).

In Brasil people are complaining every day that government has chosen TDMA and CDMA over the cheaper, standard GSM.

Huh? TDMA is the air interface for vanilla GSM. High speed GSM uses W-CDMA as the air interface because TDMA is so damn inefficient. Anyway, what business does the government have mandating technology? (Europe did this, mind you :-p) All they should sell is spectrum!

Re:waste of money?

[cygnusx]

> Both CDMA and GSM/GPRS cost about the same to roll out.

Yes, right. But, it will cost *existing* GSM operators a lot to roll out GPRS on their existing networks. And when they go to 3G, it'll cost a lot again. CDMA is a bit more reasonable: you can roll out higher-speed services incrementally.

Ask yourself this: if GPRS is so easy to roll out, why has not one GSM provider in India provided GPRS so far? They've been talking about it since August 2001, it is in danger of turning into vaporware!

So the only way to build a high-speed GSM network is to build a 3G network from scratch. See my other reply in this thread -- people have tried this (notably DoCoMo in Japan) and have had egg on their faces.

Re:waste of money?

[Vendekkai]

Ask yourself this: if GPRS is so easy to roll out, why has not one GSM provider in India provided GPRS so far? They've been talking [commsdesign.com] about [blonnet.com] it since August 2001, it is in danger of turning into vaporware!

I asked myself this, and I answered myself :-). BPL Mobile in Mumbai has had GPRS live for a year (December 2001 - so your references may need to be updated), with over 5000 customers. That number may not be significant by your standards, but in India it is. BPL Mobile also has MMS now, and it's driving signups for GPRS.

For that matter, BPL Mobile is rolling out GPRS in its other circles by February. (not vapourware - I work with the BPL Group) Airtel is rumoured to have it ready for rollout next month all India.

However, your point about incremental costs is valid, as far as 2.5G and 3G go. However, I was referring to voice penetration, which I think is more critical for India, rather than high-speed data.

Re:waste of money?

[Vendekkai]

Hey, I just looked up your bio. For a guy on india-gii, how come you didn't know about BPL Mobile's GPRS service? Granted, it's only in Mumbai, but it's been available from Dec 2001, and MMS from October 2002.

And BPL Mobile's rolling out GPRS in Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Maharastra by Feb 2003.

Re:waste of money?

[leandrod]

Thanks for the informative answer. I can see now the reasoning.

If you could still answer some points...

> a GSM-based high-speed standard would have been better. But the only way high-speed GSM would have taken off in India was if someone built a W-CDMA (which is the air interface for high speed GSM) network from scratch, and given European and Japanese experience with W-CDMA 'til now, I'd excuse any business for being slightly scared about this

But is W-CDMA a marketing or a technological problem? If marketing, then either going CDMA 2K 1x is a PHB decision, or a proprietary lock-in. If technological, then I can see the reason for it.

Also remember that business tend to see short-term only, and has made the US stuck to CDMA & TDMA. Europe saw further down the road, and thus gave us GSM.

> TDMA is the air interface for vanilla GSM. High speed GSM uses W-CDMA as the air interface because TDMA is so damn inefficient.

Yes and no. Yes, TDMA and GSM use time division multiplexing. But when people write TDMA, they mean the US proprietary version, not the European GSM open standard.

> Anyway, what business does the government have mandating technology? (Europe did this, mind you :-p) All they should sell is spectrum!

Not. Actually Europe mandating an open standard made phones better, cheaper, more useful in Europe and all the rest of the GSM world than in the US, where operators were free to use proprietary protocols.

Just think POSIX versus MS-W32. IT was better when governments would buy only POSIX.

Re:waste of money?

[cygnusx]

> For a guy on india-gii, how come you didn't know about BPL Mobile's GPRS service?
> BPL Mobile in Mumbai has had GPRS live for a year (December 2001 - so your references may need to be updated), with over 5000 customers.

How about the bad excuse that I joined India-GII only about four days back :-) ? Should've read the archives, I guess! As for BPL's GPRS service, mea culpa! Bad research on my part.

But 5000 GPRS customers in one whole year -- if true, that sounds bad. What kind of rates are they charging?

> And BPL Mobile's rolling out GPRS in Tamil Nadu, Kerala and Maharastra by Feb 2003.

Great! more power to them! Won't help me, though -- I don't think BPL services Madras city :-(. This is where, I'm sure you'll agree, a pan-India service helps.

> Airtel is rumoured to have it ready for rollout next month all India.

Please. I've heard that story from them for quite some time now. As a current Air("Busy Signals are our Middle Name")Tel customer, any promise they make has zero cred with me. OTOH, if they do launch, good for them. I'll believe it when I see it :-).

> However, your point about incremental costs is valid, as far as 2.5G and 3G go.

The cost is my biggest concern. I fear that for a lot of in-the-red operators, GPRS will be a low priority. And this means we'll be stuck in 9.6kbps-land for ages.

> However, I was referring to voice penetration, which I think is more critical for India, rather than high-speed data.

Well, the thing is -- voice is nice, but if the same network gives high-speed data, so much the better (especially since CDMA 2000 1X EV-DO is a pretty smooth upgrade path, unlike W-CDMA). The efficiencies possible in SCM alone justify this.

Small disclaimer: I don't get paid by Reliance, I'm not even remotely associated to them. I'm just a software nerd who's excited about a new high-speed *nationwide* network available to develop apps for. The air interface (or telco) really doesn't matter to me. Yeah, that and the low STD rates ;-) (which I know BSNL will match as well, real soon now).

Re:waste of money?

[Vendekkai]

But 5000 GPRS customers in one whole year -- if true, that sounds bad. What kind of rates are they charging?

Not bad, really. The rates vary between Rs 299 per month and Rs 800 per month, depending on your tariff plan. No usage charges, which is really good. However, there aren't that many people in India who'll pay for always-on mobile access. 20% of the subs are individuals, early adopters. The rest are corporates, ATMS, Playwin, and the like.

I fear that for a lot of in-the-red operators, GPRS will be a low priority. And this means we'll be stuck in 9.6kbps-land for ages.

You don't know how they operate :-). If they're in the red, all the more reason to launch a new service to encourage people to stay on and pay more. And as voice tariffs drop, data is the next cash cow.

Re:waste of money?

[cygnusx]

Yes and no. Yes, TDMA and GSM use time division multiplexing. But when people write TDMA, they mean the US proprietary version, not the European GSM open standard.

Oh, you meant AT&T's IS-136 TDMA-based system, not TDMA-the-encoding-standard. Oh yes, that sucks big time.

Also remember that business tend to see short-term only, and has made the US stuck to CDMA & TDMA. Europe saw further down the road, and thus gave us GSM.

Actually the US decided on no technology, it just let the market decide. Europe's trouble seems to be that it saw only a bit further down the road, and then settled for GSM. From what I hear, a lot of European telcos are whining about not being allowed to offer CDMA 2000 now.

But is W-CDMA a marketing or a technological problem?

I'd say it's an engineering problem: in theory, W-CDMA should work, it's the fault of the implementors (DoCoMo et al). On the other hand, W-CDMA is new, and is (much more importantly) incompatible with the standard it is replacing, i.e., vanilla GSM. So when folk rolling out the new service get technical glitches (like DoCoMo did in Japan ) handsets had to be recalled twice. In Europe, they are facing handset/network incompatibilities, because of which Finnish operators like Sonera (among others) deferred 3G plans.

Considering that CDMA 2000 gives you a phased series of technologies to roll out (1X: 144k/s, 1XEV-DO: 2M/s, 1XEV-DV: 4M+/s + simultaneous voice+data) with one investment (instead of three as in GSM's case: one for GSM, one for 2.5G, one for 3G), it becomes economically judicious to use CDMA 2000. So, I wouldn't exactly say it is a marketing decision by any means.

Actually Europe mandating an open standard made phones better, cheaper, more useful in Europe and all the rest of the GSM world

True. India too has been using GSM -- for 7 years now. And yes, GSM as a ubiquitous standard made roaming possible and very easy. But now that we want to take cellular telephony to the next level (in terms of data rates), GSM is proving to be not-quite-upto the task, at least, not without spending lots more money in new GPRS networks. So do we stick to the old-familiar standard, or use a new one?

You have to remember that interconnect agreements are mostly a commercial matter. The only reason the US cell scene is so balkanized is that companies like Nextel and AT&T have not allowed it, not because it isn't technically possible. (think AOL and instant messaging). In India, telecom regulations say that telcos MUST allow interconnects or face lawsuits.

Re:waste of money?

[leandrod]

> Considering that CDMA 2000 gives you a phased series of technologies to roll out (1X: 144k/s, 1XEV-DO: 2M/s, 1XEV-DV: 4M+/s + simultaneous voice+data) with one investment (instead of three as in GSM's case: one for GSM, one for 2.5G, one for 3G), it becomes economically judicious to use CDMA 2000.

Yes, but then you compare a totally new CDMA network to an already existing GSM & GPRS infrastructure.

So the question is, does it make sense for current CDMA operators to go CDMA 2K? Probably. Does it make sense to GSM operators to keep GSM? Sure enough. Now, does it make sense to new, TDMA or analog operators to go CDMA 2K or GSM? Perhaps CDMA 2K would be the right thing to do cost-wise, but what about the price & availability of the handsets as compared to GSM, GPRS and UMTS ones? And what about Qualcom royalties, do they exist also in GSM 3G?

> You have to remember that interconnect agreements are mostly a commercial matter. The only reason the US cell scene is so balkanized is that companies like Nextel and AT&T have not allowed it, not because it isn't technically possible.

Not so. In Brasil, if you use CDMA some areas only allow analog roaming, because CDMA isn't universally deployed. Neither with TDMA nor with CDMA you can use your handset outside of USNA, Brasil and the odd country to follow USNA's lead. With GSM you can use your handset just all over the world.

In a word, interconnect agreements are nice, but if you don't have a minimum common denominator you can't even start thinking about them.

Re:waste of money?

[cygnusx]

> what about the price & availability of [CDMA] handsets as compared to GSM, GPRS and UMTS ones?

Negligible difference, for the same reason that a P-III that cost $$$ when newly-introduced is throwaway-priced today: handsets are only as costly as the demand. In fact, a W-CDMA (UMTS) handset that also supports vanilla GSM would be costlier, because effectively you have to put two phones into one. CDMA handsets remain compatible with older CDMA networks, including CDMA95.

> And what about Qualcom royalties, do they exist also in GSM 3G?

This was probably the single biggest grouse about CDMA - Qualcomm's money gouging. El Reg, never one of Qualcomm's biggest fans, reports though that for CDMA2000 they have reasonable royalties - 5-6% of equipment cost.

Incidentally, Qualcomm also markets W-CDMA which is used in GSM based 3G networks/UMTS, because it owns the patents. So I guess it wins either way! :-|

Re:waste of money?

[pavkb]

You are the only guys who are carrying on an interesting conversation in all these conversations. And i have zero knowledge about any off these stuff.

Yes, i am indian and i am proud off these reliance guys to do a feat like this. And thanks for people like yourself who keep the uninformed like me informed.

thanks again.

Re:waste of money?

[leandrod]

> i am proud off these reliance guys to do a feat like this.

Feat?!?

At least I hope it's not a waste of capitals...

Re:waste of money?

[metlin]

Feat?!?

At least I hope it's not a waste of capitals...


Highly unlikely for that to happen, especially given the huge tariffs that exist today.

It had to come down one way or the other, and it so happened that Reliance is smart enough to capitalise on that. You have to be in India to know the amount of excitement this has generated.

IMHO, this is a definite seller.

Re:waste of money?

[leandrod]

> a definite seller.

OK, but a feat?

And even if it sells, is it to the best interest of users and investors? I mean, it still could go wrong because it is not standard and because it commands high royalties to Qualcom. Users are blocked from roaming, have to pay more for handsets, and cannot use them in other networks and countries if they move or simply decide to change operators. Investors could see their assets devaluated if GSM 3G succeeds and leave CDMA 3G as a niche, especially if GSM operator license fees are lowered by governments, as it would be fair to do.

Re:waste of money?

[Kops]

just read your very own signature. It will teach you a lot... ofcourse, ultimately it'll depend on you that how much you learn.....

Re:waste of money?

[cygnusx]

> OK, but a feat?

The "feat" IMHO is more that they got through India's bureaucratic maze and got regulatory approval for this, rather than any technical new-ness.

> Users are blocked from roaming

This could change soon. Reliance is trying to get full-fledged roaming licenses as well. If it succeeds, users *will* get roaming.

> [users] have to pay more for handsets

I don't agree with this. In a large, price-sensitive market like India, prices do crash. GSM phones started in India at Rs12,000+, they can now be had at sub-3,000 levels. No reason to believe the same won't happen to the CDMA market. Plus it'll be very interesting to watch MS' reaction as cheap J2ME phones (instead of their beloved Stingers) flood the market :-)

Also, the customer does benefit in a very direct way -- lower call charges. Indian call charges (especially Long Distance) was unaffordable for many Indians -- the cost of the handset pales in comparison.

> Investors could see their assets devaluated if GSM 3G succeeds

The key word here is 'if' -- if they introduce 3G in the first place (remember, it'll cost 'em big money!). The Indian GSM operators have been a bunch of lazy bums 'til now, not introducing any new services (barring, as another poster mentioned, BPL in Bombay with GPRS) with the excuse that "we're hardly making any money".

Well, someone has just lit a fire under their collective arses. Let's see if they run or burn.

Re:waste of money?

[leandrod]

> Reliance is trying to get full-fledged roaming licenses as well. If it succeeds, users *will* get roaming.

Not without GSM, AFAIU.

> In a large, price-sensitive market like India, prices do crash. GSM phones started in India at Rs12,000+, they can now be had at sub-3,000 levels.

CDMA is already present in the US, some of Latin America and some of the Far East. Yet handsets are routinely more expensive, late and with less options than the comparable GSM ones. The exception seems to be some PalmOS phones such as the Kyocera ones.

> No reason to believe the same won't happen to the CDMA market.

One reason: Qualcom patent royalties. Another: absence of universal standard hinders economies of scale.

> it'll be very interesting to watch MS' reaction as cheap J2ME phones (instead of their beloved Stingers) flood the market

Agreed, but this has nothing to do with GSM vs CDMA.

> the customer does benefit in a very direct way -- lower call charges.

I understand this is just a regulatory aberration specific to braindamaged Indian policy hostile to GSM, that is about to change anyway?

Again, this has nothing to do with CDMA vs GSM AFAIK.

> The key word here is 'if' -- if they introduce 3G in the first place (remember, it'll cost 'em big money!)

Yes, but again this is just a dumb regulatory issue that should go away?

Unless you are meaning that even the GSM investments have hardly paid off yet. But this is true all over the world, and I can hardly see how a new operator, fighting uphill against already entrenched ones, has a better chance of breaking even and providing investors with some ROI.

> Indian GSM operators have been a bunch of lazy bums 'til now, not introducing any new services (barring, as another poster mentioned, BPL in Bombay with GPRS) with the excuse that "we're hardly making any money".

This is not an excuse, it is true. Only big executive managers are making money, not the investors for sure. And this reminds me of another question: is there, or will there be, any market for GSM at all? It might be nice, but we would need at least better and cheaper Palm OS, GNU/Linux and Java phones, and even then I do not see it as a given.

Re:waste of money?

[cygnusx]

> Not without GSM, AFAIU.

Why not? roaming with CDMA just as possible as with GSM -- as long as you are in an area where CDMA is supported, which for in India is nationwide, with more than one vendor: Reliance, Tata Indicom and BSNL.

> CDMA is already present in the US, some of Latin America and some of the Far East. Yet handsets are routinely more expensive

Acknowledged, but let us see. anyway, handsets in the CDMA world (also in the European GSM world, afaik) are routinely subsidized by the vendor, so I'm really not too sure this is a big deal.

>> The key word here is 'if' -- if they introduce 3G in the first place
> Yes, but again this is just a dumb regulatory issue that should go away?

*No*. That's the whole point. Because introducing 2.5G requires dedicated spectrum, and rolling 3G requires new spectrum (that they can't use for vanilla GSM -- effectively 3G GSM == WCDMA == CDMA, and W-CDMA has royalties on it just as CDMA 2000 has).

As i said at the beginning of the thread, *this* is the big hit against existing GSM vendors who are saddled with equipment they cannot use to offer next-generation services. Existing equipment must be replaced. They need money to buy new equipment (AND maybe spectrum -- but if they don't buy new spectrum, then vanilla GSM users are left out in the cold) to offer 3G.

On the other hand, a player who enters from scratch NOW with CDMA 2000 has a clear path to "3G"-compatible services: he can offer voice with 1X, and on the same spectrum then add a PDSN and modify/upgrade rather than replace other equipment to offer 1XEV-DO, and then add some more to offer 1XEV-DV with little incremental trouble.

Like so many other things in engineering, decisions in favor of W-CDMA or CDMA 2000 will be taken on the basis of technical excellence + economic realities, and this is how it should be.

> this reminds me of another question: is there, or will there be, any market for GSM at all?

Oh yes, for cheap voice telephony + reliable roaming, GSM's great (barring stupid Indian vendors :-)). the problem is -- if all GSM vendors move onto 3G (W-CDMA)or GPRS, and abandon vanilla GSM service then your vanilla GSM phones won't work. No backward compatibility sucks. :-( (To be fair, this is unlikely to happen anytime soon)

> we would need at least better and cheaper Palm OS, GNU/Linux and Java phones, and even then I do not see it as a given.

I think Linux has a very bright future inside cellphones, but I don't think the air interface really matters to the OS powering the phone's apps. Conversely, the OS doesn't really matter to the telco.

Re:waste of money?

[leandrod]

> roaming with CDMA just as possible as with GSM -- as long as you are in an area where CDMA is supported, which for in India is nationwide

OK, but step outside of your borders and you're effectively mute.

> handsets in the CDMA world (also in the European GSM world, afaik) are routinely subsidized by the vendor, so I'm really not too sure this is a big deal.

Subsidising is always done in hope of recoupling it later. So if costs are higher, tariffs will have to be higher too sooner or later.

> *No*. That's the whole point. Because introducing 2.5G requires dedicated spectrum, and rolling 3G requires new spectrum (that they can't use for vanilla GSM -- effectively 3G GSM == WCDMA == CDMA, and W-CDMA has royalties on it just as CDMA 2000 has).

That's sad...

Anyway, it will only be an advantage if 3G flies.

A point: I guess W-CDMA isn't an international standard as GSM is?

> if all GSM vendors move onto 3G (W-CDMA)or GPRS, and abandon vanilla GSM service

That is not an option. GSM will always be there for (lots of) people who wanna but talk.

> I think Linux has a very bright future inside cellphones, but I don't think the air interface really matters to the OS powering the phone's apps. Conversely, the OS doesn't really matter to the telco.

Agreed, and that was my point.

Re:waste of money?

[Anonymous Coward]

you stole my words.. 33 million Americans live in poverty(10 %). Have other Americans stopped their daily work to ensure the 10 % get food etc? If the states and other countries haven't done it themselves, why blame India? And this venture is a private one, not public. my 2 cents..

In Tech-Savvy India...

[Anonymous Coward]

CDMA networks deploy themselves! The FIRST company to capitalize on this one, and other technologies???, will greatly profit!

Good for them

[grumpygrodyguy]

Frankly I hope they continute with initiatives like these.

I really like Indian food, and I've been waiting for a good excuse to leave the US. I guess it's a toss-up between India and Canada.

Re:Good for them

[Tablizer]

I really like Indian food, and I've been waiting for a good excuse to leave the US.

India sounds like a happening place right now: Jobs, cool technology, trim babes, etc. All that is left is to fix is the dessentary, electricity outages, and that odd government of theirs.

If dictators want to point to F'd up democracies to justify their rule, India is the place.

I guess it's a toss-up between India and Canada

Any jobs in Canada?

Re:Good for them

[Anonymous Coward]

Poutine vs. Vindaloo?

Poutine, no contest.

Re:Good for them

[yodha]

But, you'll have to agree that India's PM is better than the present US prez, right? :-)

monkey see monkey want

[Anonymous Coward]

How long until the USA^H^H^HCorporations sets up a Great-Wall-of-China-Firewall, to filter out tech stories, so citizens don't pine for better technology...

Re:monkey see monkey want

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're pining for better technology instead of better social conditions, "The Man" has already won.

what the hell is happening in india?

[peripatetic_bum]

I keep hearing and reading stories of Indian taking leap after technological leap (even if its just attempted leaps). First the leaped in the future of programming, then linux (the open source initiative that pretty much may have kicked Microsoft in the balls) and now this network leap.

Has India reached some sort of critical mass that the US hasnt reached? I know they are supposed to be a poor country but hell, it feels like they are just about to leap frog over everyone in the next couplt of months. :)

would like to hear replies and thanks for reading

Re:what the hell is happening in india?

[smcavoy]

Well there population is at almost 1 billion, making human resources plentful. I think in a knowledge based society this makes them "rich". Over all I think India is still very much a developing country, litercy, healthcare are huge issues there. While it's great that they will be able to convert their wealth of human resources into income they have to be careful they don't leave the poor behind, which could create great tensions down the road.

Re:what the hell is happening in india?

[gabbarsingh]

Answer: The Internet and a booming Consumer middle class.

As an Indian, I grew up amongst the ideas of conseravationist approach to life - use less electricity, lead as less materialistic life as possible - remenant of Gandhi's self-reliance theory. Since we don't have resources so we must consume less.

This changed with the 90s reform, globalization, and the Internet. People learnt to consume - letting go off securities of saving money and spending judicially to credit cards and financing cars. Cable TV and MTV (Asia) encouraged the youth to let go of the seemingly secure shackles and embrace a consumer lifestyle - Ray Bans, Nike, Levis, Budweiser etc. All these "new" ideas found roots and manifestation is spending money on things besides necessities. The circle of consumption is now established and people are open to the idea of faster, better, cheaper.

The Internet acted as catalyst. The two "sects" using the Internet were rich people and academia. And then the students in academia went on to be corporate managers etc so it spread. The Internet brought Linux few were in for ideology while most are in for the coolness factor. In India a brainy chap is cool although with the 'aping the west' the term "geek" has made it into the pop-culture. These "geeks" are wannabe geeks.

So socio-economic transformation and H1B people's exposure to business and s/w has development has tilted the scales in favor service economy. Service economy depends on tiers of services which is another win for business spending. All these factors contribute to a demand for communication among other things.

India has a healthy middle class of 300million - more than US' entire population and more for China who has witnessed fruits of globalization earlier and with Taiwan next doors as an evidence of success, Chinese and Indian are eager to catch up.

IMHO, US has the greatest and strongest economy however current trend of "cutting cost" to serve an unknown master is not doing anyone any good.

And this is going to be success because...?

[Gadzinka]

Somehow I fail to be impressed by the service even before it becomes operational. I mean, come on, India is a developing country with salaries at least an order of magnitude lower than you're avarage. 10h (which is moderate use... for a day) with $.08 per minute is $48. This is my monthly bill for cable tv and 512kbps internet over cable. And I consider this bill too high...

Robert

Re:And this is going to be success because...?

[Nef]

Double check your math there, fella. The article states .8 CENTS / minute, not 8 as you based your daily example. Granted even at a modest 5 bucks a day, its still well out of the range of a semi-3rd world country. (I use semi only due to the advances india seems to be making in pulling itself out of the gutter)

Now, answer me this...Whens the last time you spent 10 hr's/day on a phone??? I work in tech support and call locations all over the US for 8+ hours/day and let me just tell you, when I'm not at work, I sure as HELL am not on the phone!

Re:And this is going to be success because...?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this for cell phones?? Using your cell phone for 10 hrs a day is not average usage. Maybe around 300mts/month daytime minutes and around 1000mts/month weekend&night minutes. So say about 20 hrs a month. Still that works to about .08*20*60 = $96 per month!!! which is pretty costly and this usage estimate is probably on the conservative side

Re:And this is going to be success because...?

[Anonymous Coward]

India may be a developing country, but the pace at which it is developing, and the educated, ambitious, hard working middle class which is driving a lot of these developments, will get synergized by faster, cheaper and more pervasive information infrastructure being built.

Phone calls are still quite expensive in India, and once the prices go down, the connectivity spreads to more and more areas, technology becomes more accessible in remote areas, this growth will blossom and reach a critical mass, enough to be able to take India out of the problems it is facing like poverty, health, education among poorer sections of the population.

Another important region where India needs to focus on, is to build good, wider, better roads, conecting rural areas to urban centers, so that the benefits of development can flow at a faster pace, and for more uniform economic growth geographically. If the 'babus' dont do their task, the industrialists and non-resident indians should take some initiative.

Re:And this is going to be success because...?

[nileshch]

Consider this - Reliance is offering free Internet, free MMS and free talktime of 800 minutes a month, in addition to the basic tariff.

Re:And this is going to be success because...?

[jaju]

0.8 cents / minutes ==> "airtime for voice"

The Internet access charges ( data services, if you will ) - none initially. You are "always on".

See, that's cheap! Right?

Analogue Cellular is dying...

[Anonymous Coward]

Sad news for some, but the old cell networks are DEAD. Can you imagine the power of a beowulf cluster of CDMA connected phones? In Some Redeployments of 3G, the phones locate you!

This will be more than your average slashdotter trading naked Natalie Portman pics and goatse.cx links, this has the possibility of always-on, always-connected, real-time citizen monitoring.

First, there will be the logging and location, second, some sort of database???, and c. some greedy corporations to profit! from it.

I'm sure the liberal slashdot moderators will mod me down, of course. I'm even posting from IE

Just Imagine

[Martigan80]

What this will do for phone sex!!!

On a serious note, this would be a kicker for the spam-king and the telemarket-king.

Sorry couldn't resist. I'sa gots sum ishues.

Good for India...

[Anonymous Coward]

but bad for US and Canada, in the long run. Indian government realised that the only way they can reduce poverty and improve the condition of India's citizes is through technology. Permeating every class in the society with the technology will enable even the poorest people to access the learning materials and colaborate with other people in developing new products and services. Those products and services will in turn be sold and smart people who understand technology, no matter how poor they were, will get a chance to rise above the class to which they belonged and achieve their full potential.

It is really too bad that US and Canada, with their sub-substandard primary and secondary education, and lack of technological vision in governmental leaders, will fall behind in technology and be reduced to the land of financial speculators and marketing people.

Re:Good for India...

[zogger]

yes and no, just saying "technology" will save you is incomplete. The industrialised western wealthy "world" got that way in the 19th and 20th centuries by exploiting almost free oil and water and building stuff using technological advances. Those three things are all needed, leave out any one of those three parts, you'll stay a poor nation. China is advancing technologically as well as india, the difference is they build stuff,not just talk about it or design it or trade it, they MANUFACTURE things by the cubic mile, and realising they will be needing more and more oil have picked the muslim oil producing nations to court and trade with, wheras india will forever be at war with where the oil comes from, hence, they will never achieve first world advanced wealthy status. They might achieve a much larger middle class-maybe- but won't become any sort of world power without cheap energy they own.

I am NOT dissing the Indians, just pointing out basic economies. Oil and water AND adoption of technology makes technologically superior nations, not just schooling. India has about zilch for their own energy sources, and in manufacturing they are way behind. Japan was able to suceed by having all brand new manufacturing facilities built relatively recently after world war 2 and by being extremely protectioinist and taking advantage of oil at 2 to 10$ a barrel during the boom years of the 50s through the 70s, now they are hurting and are floundering in a sea of debt with zero hopes of recovering, although they are still making stuff that is advanced and cool, lack of energy will gradually drop their power and influence once china's oil thirst grows larger and as they complete their vertical manufacturing infrastructure. I would suggest NEVER underestimate how important cheap oil has been, is, and will be in the future. India is in even worse shape. They are enjoying a temporary boom that will fizzle in around ten years or so, IMO, as programming becomes more automatic with better tools and easy for almost anyone to do, while at the same time oil increases in scarcity and price. The oil producers will want durable goods, not programs. China is the big winner this century, because they have the only logical and viable long range wealth creation plan now. You are correct about the decline of the US and Canada, we've been sold out for short term profits by our various current "leaders" in the politics/business cartel, and also by your observation of the delibarate "dumbing down" of the populations here by inferior schooling and over emphasis on trivial matters and wealth re-arranging rather than what we were the worlds best at, which was wealth-creating. We are throwing that away for short term mega profits right now, too bad, too. Canada has a chance because of their oil,gas and water wealth, but it remains to be seen if their socialistic governmental structure is up to the task or not, in my observations the jury is still out on that. If they adopted the past japanese model of protectionism and not just selling off natural resources but USING them instead they could be much wealthier, but looks to me like they got sucked into the same trap the US middle class got sucked into by their "leaders", trading real cheap trinkets for a few years for eventual loss of income.

Re:Good for India...

[Gyan]

mod parent up.

Re:Good for India...

[alizard]

most interesting thing about this post is that the mistakes made in syntax are of the sort I'd expect from a native Indian who learned English as a second or fourth language.

Unfortunately, he's right about the US.

Re:Good for India...

[dracken]

You simply do not understand India or the times that you live in. So what does Microsoft really "own". Guess who is the biggest bigger - Coca Cola, FedEx or Microsoft ?

So what is the fastest growing industry now in India ? Software ? wrong - it is Biotech. So who are slated to be the largest H1B visa holders from India in 3 years time ? Software ? no Teachers. So what am I trying to say ? India simply doesnt have the time nor the resources for the old model of "build brick industries, sell stuff, wait for profit".

Indian middle class is 300 million strong - much more than the entire population of US combined. We have population, a HUGE middle class and highly skilled labor force that costs a pittance. So our model is export workforce to any, I repeat *ANY* sector that needs skilled people, rake in money and build highways with that money. Thats what is happening today and thats what will happen in the future.

Re:Good for India...

[bonginsg]

Whilst I agree with most of what you have said RE: the need for basic/manufacturing industries, it is not true that India does not manufacture anything. India has created an industrial base that is : - large (enough to cater to all Indian needs) - deep (owns the technology they use) India manufactures its own cars, trucks, heavy engineering equipment, industrial chemicals, televisions, steel, cement, soap, shampoo etc. etc. If you come to India you will see that scarcely any product is fully imported (except PCs). It's all manufactured in India. The problem is : - the largest Indian companies are still very small by global standards - they have not faced too much competition (India being a closed ecnomy till not very long ago) and are thus inefficient - they have bought and absorbed technology, but do not do R&D of their own. For new stuff they keep buying technology from the West So as India opens up as per WTO rules, most Indian manufacturing companies will crumble when faced by cheaper products from Malaysia / S. Korea / China, and giant MNCs from US and Europe.

CDMA vs 802.11 Hotspots

[path_man]

It's hard to get excited about 144Kbps when 802.11 hotspots are popping up like wildfire. The math is easy to figure out... 11M vs 144K. Granted, I can't drive through town downloading email while in my car over roaming hotspots ((yet)) but then again, the likelyhood of getting dropped by Sprint PCS even in major corridors makes that a "so-what" in my book.

The real reason that CDMA gets me excited is as an augmentation to WLAN connections. To at least have some net connectivity if I'm hopping between hotspots. Not as a replacement for high-speed connections. The ILECs and other broadband carriers have nothing to fear from CDMA and should begin to embrace working together with them.

Why? Because at the end of the day, it's still cheaper, faster, and better to have your connection over physical fibre and no wireless carrier in the world can replace the stuff that is already buried in the ground.

Re:CDMA vs 802.11 Hotspots

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, I have to agree with you.

They have come up with the Simputer, breakthroughs on the IT fron, Linux deployment and now this?

And they have a good space programme too, and seem to have a tech savvy population, and a manpower of 1 Billion!

I think India is going to be one of the superpowers to reckon with in the years to come.

Re:CDMA vs 802.11 Hotspots

[markov_chain]

The math is easy to figure out... 11M vs 144K.

Well, effective bandwidth of an 802.11b cell is only a little greater than 4 Mbps. There is significant overhead in the protocol. But yes, it is still nicer than the dinky phone connections.

Even better, if it turns out it's possible to reduce the size of the phase array AP (there was a story here few weeks ago) that can dynamically follow users with a directional beam, the cell phone stuff may even lose its range advantage.

Re:CDMA vs 802.11 Hotspots

[Kunta Kinte]

The ILECs and other broadband carriers have nothing to fear from CDMA and should begin to embrace working together with them.

They have a lot to fear.

I know a few friends who don't have home phone lines. A decade ago that would have been almost impossible to do. The number of people who've done this is small, but growing.

Next month, I plan to cut my home phone line. I can't wait to say good riddance to Bellsouth.

Currently an alternative for DSL is cable. But even the cable companies should fear cell service providers as well.

Just recently Sprint came up with $40 always on internet ( not including minutes, I assume ). Service is bad, sure, the phone choice is limited, definately, the speeds are slow. But it's only a start and I'm sure the rest of the industry will catch up, and service will improve.

You have to understand most people don't *need* broadband, and can get by very well on dialup speeds. Myself included. GSM/GPRS, bluetooth, a phone plan that allows me enough data to surf the web on average of 1/2hr per day, is all I need. And I think that would suit many other people just fine as well.

Look to Japan for example. I've heard it's more of the norm to not have a landline in younger demographics ( can't verify that ).

Eventually, the local phone companies are going to realize all that money they spent trying to keep their monopoly was wasted. As wireless is going to do them in anyway.

Re:CDMA vs 802.11 Hotspots

[anarchima]

I think this is a step in the right direction, though. If we were to wait for the technology "just around the corner" all the time, we'd be kicking ourselves every 2 months. You have to start somewhere, and this is a positive development for India.

yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

Good to know your cell phone works when you're dying from malaria or dysentary. Try chlorinating the water too for a change.

If they combined this...

[twiztidlojik]

With this inexpensive computer it might dramatically drive down the prices of web access and give India's lower class a much needed edge over the surrounding countries. After all, for a computer that costs $99 and monthly access for $5, it seems like a no-brainer for the thousands of informationally-unaware people there.

Better Technology.

[hackwrench]

Better technology IS better social conditions.

The real purpose of the network

[Infonaut]

and we'll have college kids playing deathmatches with each other in classroom

I'm absolutely positive that it was gamers in the Indian government who pushed for this network. I mean, come on. It's not like there are any actually relevant uses for this in a developing nation that is trying to leapfrog the 20th century and take a leading position in the 21st.

Nope, it's all about gaming.

Re:The real purpose of the network

[malfunction54]

um, don't games like Quake require ping times 500ms? if so, CDMA is out for now. Come back in a few years. :(

Pretty Shnazy....

[CyberBill]

All I have to say is 'w00t'... I really cant wait till the day when we all have wireless 1GB connections. *drool* -Bill

144?

[simpl3x]

not quite! but i do get pretty decent response times on slashdot... i got a verizon card last week and am posting (pecking on my tablet) from a coffee shop. i find that it is very functional, and only miss the bandwidth when downloading files. bandwidth seems to be an excuse to surf faster. recomended.

MUDS

[hoagieslapper]

"Now all we need is Quake for Java and we'll have college kids playing deathmatches with each other in classroom at 144kbps."

I thought I had a tough time a college with MUDS tempting me.

Java Quake?

[Rogerborg]

Old, old, old story. JQuake is dead. Long live Frag Island!. Well, back in 1997 anyway.

Re:Java Quake?

[metalpet]

dead links everywhere.

I really wish they'd have open-sourced their java 3d engine.. It kicked major butt, even on the first generation JITs of way back when.

OT - Your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

I always heard - "I see," said the blind carpenter, and he picked up his hammer and saw.

Just thought I'd share, although I would also like to know who the hell spends 10 hours a day on their cell phone.

Re:OT - Your sig

[Anonymous Coward]

Guess it depends on what your outlook is on life. Me, I'm a pessimist, your version would make me think you (or the source of your version) is an optimist.

As far as spending 10hrs a day on a cell phone, I don't know either, which is part of why I replied to the original comment. I work in tech support and believe me, 8+ hours a day in a comfy chair withe beverage at hand and a nice wireless headset STILL makes me wanna scream if I hear the phone ring when I'm home.

I'm very seriously considering having my home phone turned off and getting one of those doo-hickeys to use your cell phone for home service (I have one of the Nokias) and then just letting my voicemail catch all of them.

Well, off to work I go, thanks for sharing!

CDMA development in India

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if this technology is cheaper to develop in India. I bet the western telcos have set up development shops there to leverage the cheaper labor rates.

Metered pricing will keep me away.

[Bug-Y2K]

yawn.

In 1995 I had flat rate, all I could eat, ubiquitous (at least in the cities I lived in/travelled to the most: Seattle, SF, NYC), wireless Internet access.

Since the death of that network (Ricochet) I have used other wireless networks (GSM, CDMA, CDPD, etc.) and what made me quit using them very swiftly was the usage-based pay scheme.

You see the problem is that wireless communications are flaky. I know that about half of my voice calls on wireless devices are lousy and/or dropped... data communications is nowhere near as flexible and tolerant of lousy connections as the human ear is. At least I can kind of guess that my wife wants me to stop ... the .... groc... some... milk ...and... thing... dinner.

But my computer/PDA/smartphone/whatever, when presented with a datastream like that would just give up... and try again, and again, and again... at whatever cents per minute? Fsck that. I hate paying for something on a metered basis that just *doesn't work.*

If they came up with a plan that was unlimited, for say $29.95 a month? (what I was paying for ricochet BTW) Sure, I'd buy it. But metered? Forget it.

Re:Metered pricing will keep me away.

[markov_chain]

Yeah, and guess who is still in business today? It is hard to run a service like that for free. Ricochet sunk huge amounts of money into their infrastructure, and even that was only in a small number of places. On the other hand, they had a tiny number of users compared to cellular carriers.

If it's any consolation, think of it this way: your l33t wireless service got paid for by rich venture capitalists, and any use you got out of it is money no longer in their pockets.

Re:Metered pricing will keep me away.

[cybermace5]

Well, guess what.

As of very recently, the Sprint PCS Vision network is no longer usage-based.

Yep, unlimited internet access, 300 minutes, free nights and weekends, voice mail, free PCS-to-PCS on a two-year contract, all on a nice color phone with web browser, email, and text messaging. This costs exactly $40 per month, which is $10 more than the regular audio-only plan.

My Samsung N400 will arrive this week. I can buy a USB cable and hook my laptop up to the Vision network. Apparently, it works on Linux too; the phones simply identify as an ACM device and you dial #777 to set up the PPP connection. It doesn't take your minutes, it just hooks you into the always-on Vision connection (50-70kbps average, from what I hear).

Yes, that would be unlimited wireless internet. The Treo 300 uses the Vision network as well; looks like a pretty nice little setup.

Hopefully it all works. The EULA says that you're only supposed to use the Vision network on the phone itself, but they contradict that and sell a USB cable and software on their own web site. Also, a lot of the website claims that Vision is metered, but on the actual plan purchase page it's unlimited. Just need to update a lot of their website, apparently.

I'll check it out this week, and make sure it works. If you want to find out how it goes, let me know.

Money well spent.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm all for technology, but this is ridiculous. How about giving these people some food; access to clean, running water; a better electricity backbone; better housing; and so forth.

The rich will get new toys to play with while the poorer people outside of cities will benefit nothing.

Money ill spent, to say the least.

Re:Money well spent.

[markov_chain]

How about giving these people some food;

Who will give them food?

How about teaching them to make food more efficiently, clean their water, and run power lines? It would solve the problem fundamentally, and is much cheaper than external involvement.

Re:Money well spent.

[moumine]

Oh, they have taught themselves how to grow food more efficently (their Green Revolution is quite well known for having been a success). What they haven't yet achieved is to distribute this food so that nobody is undernourished.

Re:Money well spent.

[Anonymous Coward]

people dont work for food alone, that's a fact.

You need ways to improve quality of life and provide infrastructure. Buying food doesnt solve a damn thing but temporarily alleviate the problem.

Re:Money well spent.

[theprancinghorse]

How about giving these people some food;
Who will give them food?

I think that it is a major misconception of the west that India is short on food grain. India has one of the largest food surpluses in the world. It is simply that there are too many people who cannot afford it and the infrastructure is not good enough to transport the surplus grain all over the country economically. Why does the govenrment not do anything about it? Well, thats massive debate in itself.

So your comments about starving people may be ultimately accurate but I get the impression you feel that poor Indians starve because there is not enough food in the country. That is incorrect.

Re:Money well spent.

[mack_ver]

Well' i used to live in india, and what i have learned is that u cannot just give people food and help them. This new service will create jobs and circulate money through the economy. Eventualy the whole country will experience a better living condition. Look at Korea for instance, they started their whole industry by selling nails.(true fact)

Agreed

[I Am The Owl]

Anyone who flames people for stupid languages abuses like that is OK in my book...

Re:Agreed

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have also have a hard time accepting the fact that people say stuff like "that was a fun night?"

They're progressive, we have telephone sanitizers

[Morgaine]

Easy, they've got their foot on the accelerator of new technology, new ideas, new rules, and new freedoms.

In contrast, we've got our foot on the brake of new constraints like "Intellectual Property", new "growth" areas like patents on everything, and new laws to ensure that old business doesn't succumb to the new.

To which continent do you think the label of "progressive" applies best?

The only reason we're still doing as well as we are here in the "first" world is because we have a large head of steam and massive resources from past years, and a world bank that knows on which side its toast is buttered. If everyone were to start afresh right now, our only growth industry would be in lawyers and related non-producers of wealth. It's kind of depressing.

WiLL is not mobile

[cdmafoa]

"Ambani said eventually, the wireless in local loop (WLL) facility would connect all the 6,40,000 villages..."

This system is WiLL which means no handoffs. This type of system is great for replacing existing (or non-existant) land line infrastructures to single points (like homes). This reduces the complexity of the system and therfore the cost of installation and upkeep. However, this system doesn't work if the user is moving around, so it's no substitue for a true cellular system.

Re:WiLL is not mobile

[Quixote]

The fact is, most people there require just regular phone service, not even cellular. Seeing how densely populated cities are, it would be impossible to lay the copper to connect everyone. WiLL is a godsend. People don't travel much (there) on a daily basis anyways (except, maybe in the 4 large metros). For them, WiLL is as good as cellular.

Just read today that Telstra is also going in for WiLL, and is looking at what the Indians are doing as an example.

Re:WiLL is not mobile

[botsie]

Reliance's system is CDMA cellular technology launched under WiLL regulations. So it works just like a cell phone, but a phone will not work outside it's telecom district (usually a city-sized area). This is a regulatory limitation *not* a technical one.

Re:WiLL is not mobile

[yora]

This system is WiLL which means no handoffs.

The CDMA WiLL technology that is being deployed is a cellular phone system. The only thing is that handoffs are disabled in the system to make it comply with the regulations about WiLL. It is not very different from most CDMA cellular networks out there using similar technology. I am sure that even the handsets are same or with small firmware changes.

In India to get a cellular telephony operator's license, the operator has to use the GSM system and pay higher license fees than for land line phones. The government allowed the use of any kind of WiLL technology by land line operators to speed up the rollout of new telephone servies. But there is a small legal loophole that is being exploited by all the basic telephony operators to provide limited mobility using CDMA technology. The main problem with the CDMA WiLL technology is that the call won't follow you across cells when you are moving around or allow for roaming, otherwise it behaves like your regular cellular phone network. The issue is not about tech

Also the government run telco,MTNL, has been offering similar services in Delhi and Mumbai for more than 2 years now and with similar price structure. The MTNL scheme didn't pick up because of the limited number of connections that they gave out (around 20,000 in delhi) and the poor quality of their network. MTNL also runs a GSM cellphone service and that too has not really picked up because of the network quality in the initial stages. The technology is not new. What is new is the promoter behind this and some additional services. There are other private companies giving similar services for the same price!

Doesn't Look Good...

[Galahad2]

If they don't have enough bandwidth for Slashdot, how do they expect to serve all of India?

Technology helps

[Quixote]

I'm sure there are a lot of readers here who'll say "but what about education/poverty/healthcare/yadayada", as always. I think it is time you guys changed your views on this. I know, a cellphone won't cure any illnesses (may even cause some, but thats besides the point..), but it can help in reducing poverty. Here are a couple of examples:

• In some southern Indian states, fishermen have found a great use of cellphones. When they go out to sea for fishing, on the way back they call at all of the local harbors within their range, and find the best price for their catch! Some fishermen have found that their cellphone paid for itself in just a couple of weeks.
• Farmers can keep in touch with their nearby mandis (wholesale markets), and strike deals which will maximise their gain from their harvest (i.e., pick the right time, sell their produce in advance, checkout prices at all nearby places and take their produce to the one with the highest prices, etc.).

These are but 2 examples; I'm sure if someone did a study, you'd find 100s more.

I liken this new technology to what happens when a man-made wreck lands at the bottom of the sea. Nature quickly finds ways to use the wreck to its advantage: new coral colonies bloom, fishes use it as their hideout, etc. Similarly, the people of India will quickly adapt and find ways to leverage this new technology in ways that we, here in the west, can't even imagine. I say more power to them!

Wireless?

[Kelerain]

This wireless network will cover 90% of India's population on a backbone of 60,000 kms of optic fibre.

I'd just like to know where they plan on buying 60,000 kms of wireless optical cable.

Re:Wireless?

[InfiniteWisdom]

Well, an OPTICAL cable is different from WIRES isn't it?

Re:Wireless?

[1DeepThought]

The phone network is wireless the fibre is for the transmission network.

Re:Wireless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you on crack? Optical cables aren't wireless. They are optical . The idea is you use optical cables for longhaul traffic and in between cell towers. The cell towers handle the cell phones (or WLL).

No it shouldn't

[z84976]

But... first, I think the provision of clean drinking water, sewer, and civil support systems should be a priority. Ask yourself this... you live in a mud house (recently constructed after the last monsoon killed half your neighborhood and left you homeless) and rarely have enough to eat. You've yet to experience television, telephone, tele-anything. Nor have you ever seen a real doctor in a somewhat clean setting. Or dentist. You don't think much about your childrens' college funds, because--- if they survive infancy--- there are no schools to attend except possibly some local religious school (which may be terroristic in idealogy... but who's counting if it's all you have?). Is a cellphone really near the top of your list of priorities? You can't even READ!

Granted, there are millions and millions and millions of Indians for whom this will be a boon. They are highly intelligent, hard working and motivated people. But priorities... priorities... please...

Re:No it shouldn't

[Vendekkai]

Get off this idealistic high horse. Think a little before posting. Are you suggesting that Reliance, a corporate that has been very successful in the sectors that it operates in (synthetic textile bases, petrochemicals) and is now moving into telecom, starts providing "clean drinking water, sewer, and civil support systems"?

Reliance is doing what a business should do. If more companies like Reliance do business, profitably, then the Government of India will have money to spend on social welfare.

And, before generalising, think again. India has a middle class larger than the population of the United States. There are probably more television sets in India than in the US. They _need_ access to cheap telephony, and they can afford to pay for it. Not what you suckers in the US pay, but reasonable rates.

The TRAI (telecom regulator) in India does not approve predatory pricing, which is what it calls pricing call tariffs below cost. The fact that these low tariffs have been approved, indicate that they are above cost for the operator.

And thus enters Iraq...

[md358]

Things do indeed look grim for the state of Western economies in the 21st century, particularily for the US as it ceases creating wealth and its economy starts hemorraging with nary a bandaid in sight. Canada I wouldn't say is in the same position but the similarities btwn those two countries economies (and Canada's reliance on the US's) can't be ignored.

But fortunately, President Bush, or at least his advisors, are way ahead of the /. computer-chair-critics on this one. Seriously, does anyone actually think Iraq is a bigger worry than North Korea? They've been nice and quiet for a few years and beyond oppressing their own people and running a dictatorship (not things that typically bothers the US) have been pretty well-behaved. But all that oil they're sitting on.... geez, what a freedom-loving, SUV-driving, liberty-humping country could do with all that oil. Said president simply needs to erase the oppressive government, install a friendly secular one, then donate loads of (primarily military) aide, ala Israel, and we'll be rolling in the smelly black stuff. George Bush may be a few marbles short but he has some damn good advisors.

Infocom? Glad to hear they're making a comeback.

[ediron2]

>xyzzy

You're in the world's most populous nation, surrounded by people needing telecom infrastructure.

can't speak of europe...

[zogger]

..can't speak of europe, but there's a huge growing backlash against this massive legal and humongous illegal immigration into the US and outsourcing jobs, and the state of the economy as a whole. My best guess at this time is two years from now at the next presidential elections there will have occurred a major shift in peoples' consciousnesses and protectionism and serious clamp down controls and a drop of "guest workers" will occur in the US. Obviously I can't "know" this but that's why the trends are showing right now. The US actual wealth-producing productive workforce is relatively small for our population, we are hemorraghing real bona fide mortgage paying jobs now. personal bankruptices and mortgage defaults are at a 30 year high and climbing. Monday night 3/4 of a million middle class workers who have already lost their jobs will lose their last income, their unemployment checks, with roughly 50,000 a week every week after that for another few million. We AREN'T replacing those jobs nor anything close to those incomes in any close ratio. This will result eventually in some serious political re alignments, it's inevitable.

How this relates to India I guess is we'll see such pressure on the US congress that those numbers of h1b's will drop, not right away but it'll happen. If ya'all can send them other places, swell, more power to ya, and I repeat I WASN'T dissing India in my original post, just looking at macros all over. You guys are doing what ya need to do, but that don't change the fact of the 2000's being the decade of the "resource wars" as the oil and water starts to seriously run out and gets divvied up and fought over. That's why I gave it roughly a ten year furtherance predictive time span. One of the reasons is that is roughly the time I think china will make their expansionist moves, as in "big ole war" or at least such a serious bluff it will be allowed to go on.

As an aside, I think the world will be extremely lucky to not have at least one medium sized war go nuclear and biological by then, chances are high the subcontinent might be one (of several) of the places this occurs, and seeing as how that is such a wildcard in it's effects I can't really make any prognostications if that actually transpires.

Ok.. I give.. WTF does TV have to do with it?

[Anonymous Coward]

' i mean, most of them don't even have a television set probably '

Given that I've not watched 'TV' in 7 years
and haven't died yet. Umm...

Maybe if you spent a little more time reading
and a little less time vegging you'd see that
India is slated for some wicked cool stuff in the
near future.

Hell.. if I spoke the language I'd move there right
now, just for the opportunities. (besides a huge
population of folks that don't have any desire
to pester me with questions about what I watched
on tv the night before.)

Turn it off and get a life.

Re:Ok.. I give.. WTF does TV have to do with it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell.. if I spoke the language I'd move there right now, just for the opportunities.

You seem to have a good command of English. Well enough to live in India. They are not condescending folks and you will get away with an occasional mistake. ;-)

CDMA-- I'm against it!

[Esion Modnar]

It's one of the worst pieces of legislation the RIAA has ever pushed through Congress. Oh, wait, that's DCMA... I mean, DMCA... This dyxlesia really gets me sometimes...

Reminds me...

[Emexies]

With all the recent stories about India, this reminds me of how Japan made leaps and bounds ahead of other countries not long ago in our History...

Worldwide network?

[midgley]

I'm European, and can wander from country to country using my cellphone. Except the US. Is this networking following the worldstandard or the US one?

Re:Worldwide network?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're European - nobody cares what you think.

Re:Worldwide network?

[bonginsg]

The current Indian mobile network is GSM (ie. what is used in Europe and Asia). The network being launched by Reliance is CDMA (which is what is used in USA). So you can roam in India with yr current mobile, but on the Airtel / Bharte / Orange networks. Not on the new Reliance network.

Quake for what?

[Anonymous Coward]

If Zend couldn't build a PHP IDE in Java that operated with any acceptable speed, what makes you think you're going to write 3d games in it?

vs. wireless

[simpl3x]

the modem card is good because rarely can you find a consistent hotspot which is free. sure if you're driving around town they pop up, but my experience has been that the signals often are weak and drop, and if they know what they're doing, they are protected. damn starbucks to hell! everytime i walk in there, my browser automatically goes to the tmobile site. trying to get off that site is a pain in the ass. they certainly have something to teach top the pop-up add people.

Indian middle class is a joke

[Anonymous Coward]

"India has a healthy middle class of 300million - more than US' entire population " This is the biggest lie indians keep repeating ad nauseam in a pathetic attempt to gloss over the fact that India is home to the world's LARGEST concentration of the hungry and the homeless. The indian 'middle class' makes far less than someone on welfare in the U.S. Like the germans who were forced to taking 'tours' of Auschwitz to face what their country had done, indians must be forced to face the abominable conditions in which most of their brethren are forced to live in. Practice tough love with these callous, selfish bastards. Say, 'feed your people, n1gger! Provide clean water for them you jerk!" at every opportunity.

Re:Indian middle class is a joke

[gabbarsingh]

It is true the that the 300million strong middle class exist. It is also true that the rest are struggle to survive and suffer abject poverty. One fact doesn't obfustace other.

India is poor for centuries. We just don't know any better. However US in its glorious 60s, admist moon landings and transistor invention was lynching innocent men, women, and children - despite the superior education, facilities, economy, and resources. So what was that you were saying about 'tough love'?

Re:Indian middle class is a joke

[blissfully yours]

"India is poor for centuries. We just don't know any better." Another pathetic excuse from another selfish, callous indian bastard. There is just NO excuse for the way you heartless scoundrels treat your own kind. For God's sake, if you can make nukes and shoot satellites into space at least you should be able to create an infrastructure that can feed, clothe and house the 100s of millions of indians who go hungry every day!

Re:Indian middle class is a joke

[sonamchauhan]

[ From Anonymous Coward ]
'feed your people, n1gger! Provide clean water for them you jerk!'

Yes, at least we do try ! Yes, we should be doing it better, but at least we are doing it. Given your use of the "nigger" word, you don't care anyway. When did you last help these poor people, you hypocrite?

Re:Indian middle class is a joke

[Anonymous Coward]

"at least we do try ! Yes, we should be doing it better, but at least we are doing it. " Another shameless indian tries to gloss over the cruel mistreatment of his countrymen. Where is your conscience? You cant blame the british for the lack of clean drinking water and malnourishment of indians can you? You have been 'free' for half a century. What have you 'tried' to alleviate the incredible hardships of your countrymen? I have even heard you callous bastards bragging that India EXPORTS food! How cruel is that?!

Re:Indian middle class is a joke

[blissfully yours]

"It is true the that the 300million strong middle class exist."

Do stop puffing up your puny chest and thumping it so furiously. You are making a fool of yourself. Fact is India's ENTIRE GNP is less than $ 500 Billion. Even if you ascribe the whole GNP to the supposed 300 million strong 'middle-class' you come up with a per capita income of way less than $ 2000 a year. Its sheer deceptiveness to claim that such a measly income qualifies as 'middle class' by any known standards.

Re:Indian middle class is a joke

[Gyan]

"Its sheer deceptiveness to claim that such a measly income qualifies as 'middle class' by any known standards."

You're partially right. I'm a 'middle-class' Indian from Bombay.

How do we define 'middle-class' in India ?

1) You stay in a city or town.
2) You can regularly provide food on the table.
3) You can afford to have your children educated
4) Unlike 'poor' people, you can go for occasional leisure shopping trips and entertainment activities.
5) You own atleast some kind of TV.
6) You have a phone connection.

With these (and particularly 4th) conditions, you're middle class.

Maybe you're adding

7) You own or rent a _decent_ home.
8) You own a vehicle.
9) You can afford to enjoy vacations away from home and native village,

And then you would be correct. 300m is a grossly inflated figure.

Re:Indian middle class is a joke

[sonamchauhan]

> You cant blame the british
No.

> 'free' for half a century.
Yes, around one quarter of the time compared to the US.

> gloss over the cruel mistreatment of his countrymen.
Who's glossing over what? The Hindu caste system is pure *evil*. Indian society was (and still is) in a dump of it's own making. It is slowly extricating itself (with slips backward, like in the riots) -- no thanks to self-righteous people like you who can only stand and jeer without *ever* lending a hand! "Stand aside", you sniff... "for I am holier than thou".

> What have you 'tried' to alleviate the incredible hardships of...
I've given money. But that's between myself and God. If you're the same AC with the "nigger" comment, consider yourself first hypocrite! Consider how flimsy your excuses will seem to God, and how empty your vain pride will be, the day you stand to be judged before Him. Break your pride, and read what Jesus Christ said.

Wireless in local loop

[Anonymous Coward]

Reliance is offering WiLL service. The cell phones send their signals to cell phone towers which are hooked into the POTS system...basically a cordless phone with a long range.

Re:They're progressive, we have telephone sanitize

[gabbarsingh]

I cannot agree more on this patent and IP thing. This is beyond common sense. We are developing a system and seems like we just stepped into a patent/copyright minefield. We don't need engineers - we need lawyers! Don't the sci-fi writers own all possible patents already?

It is not just wireless

[MaximusTheGreat]

From the guys who started it all. By the way this company is no joke. These guys(Ambanis) started with literally nothing to turn into a fortune 500 company with an annual revenue of $13.5 billon in a short span 27 years. So, when they say we will do it, they are taken very seriously. Reliance Infocomm Ushers a Digital Revolution In India http://www.ril.com/eportal/media/NewsDetails.jsp?i d=N279&page_id=72 Second, in mid 2003, with an enterprise netway revolution by providing 100 mbps Ethernet links to every desktop and device to half a million enterprise buildings initially and eventually to 10 million buildings..... Third, in end 2003, with a consumer convergence revolution by providing high speed Ethernet links to 80 million homes initially and eventually to every home..... The Dhirubhai Ambani Developer Programme will create a new platform for innovations in information technology. One thousand developers of software solutions are being enrolled now to eventually grow to 100,000 developers by December 2003

Too bad you can't see beyond your own nose...

[Anonymous Coward]

Mark this as a troll if you must, but the truth of the matter is that I am pointing to facts and Slashdot can make a decision for itself. Unforunately, people like "metlin" forget that their country needs to be brought up from 3rd world status and that will not happen by giving people cell-phones. Most of the achievements in the Western world have come from hardwork and a sincere desire to change. Technological advances were created with the evolution of society not by handing them technology.

It troubles me to read posts such as yours since it shows a complete disrespect for the millions that are suffering due to poverty. I have no need to argue with you other than point you and the rest of the slashdot community to the CIA World fact book which breaks down how dire the situation is through hard numbers:

Here

Furthermore, human rights abuses run rampent:

Here

It continues in a report to the U.S. Congress:

Here

And more:

Here

Caste violence, Gujrat, etc:

Here

VJP, the current prime minister has been trying to force his parties Hindu fundamentalist agenda and it is working. They have successfully led to the genocide of thousands of peasants of non-Hindu religious decent.

Re:Too bad you can't see beyond your own nose...

[Anonymous Coward]

Die Pakistani SuuX0RZ!!!! ;-)

Seriously, our record on human rights is a lot better than a lot of other countries. Even assuming it was as bad as China (or Chile during its darkest periods) how is rolling out technology to people going to hurt? In fact, increasing comms options for people can actually reduce human-right violations (think ubiquitously available camera-enabled phones with videoconferencing -- document a riot as it occurs, punish the guilty)

Re:Too bad you can't see beyond your own nose...

[metlin]

Every country has a black mark. How do you justify American action in Iraq? Perhaps they have a point, perhaps they do not.

How about Pakistan, which sponsors terrorist activities, is ruled by a military dictator and whose intelligence agency ISI is *confirmed* to have ties with the underworld in India?

India has a rocket scientist for a president, a *democratically elected* president, while being surrounded by a Military Dictatorship (ruling a fundamentalist country) on one side and a Communist Dictatorship on the other.

India is a developing nation, and has it's own set of problems in healthcare and basic utilities, I do agree. But technology IS the ONLY way out of this mess. Only when you educate people about the ill effects of bad environments, AIDS and the like will there be progress. People NEED to know.

Yes, we have sectarian violence. Try having a billion people of disparate cultural differences, with hundreds of languages, who have been exploited by colonialism for 400 years. You will then know.

Keeping them in the dark only worsens the situation. People *need* to be taught that this would not help in the long run. People need to be taught tolerance.

Technology has done a wealth of good for us, with revolutions in the agro sector, IT industry and now communication industry.

More the money the industries make, more the revenue the govt. earns, and the society as a whole benefits. And you have a booming economy, with a growing middle class which is tech savvy.

Please tell me what is wrong with this. I fail to see how something as beneficial as technology is going to do ill to a society.

Unforunately, people like "metlin" forget that their country needs to be brought up from 3rd world status and that will not happen by giving people cell-phones.

Incorrect reference, third world refers to Non-Aligned Nations, and has nothing to do with economic development. Developing nations would be an appropriate usage. Technology is not the end, it is the means to solving world's problems. If you think otherwise, you're a fool.

Most of the achievements in the Western world have come from hardwork and a sincere desire to change. Technological advances were created with the evolution of society not by handing them technology.

Huh? What the hell did you just blabber? Oh so wait, we want to have technology so that we can sit and play Quake all day? Or wait, technology happens on its own without us having to work or just loitering around or what?

What an absurd statement. Technology arms people. Technology gives people the power to do things that they thought impossible, and improves their standard of living. It does not happen overnite, and it does not happen to everybody. But it does happen, it is a process and it will take time.

But that does not mean that its all useless. This is one of the MOST STUPID comments I've EVER read on /.

Duh.

IT manufacturing base in India is non-existent

[Anonymous Coward]

WHO is going to make all these millions of java-enabled phones? Not India for sure. Its truly pathetic that such a large nation is still unable to actually manufacture any world-class products. Even in software their share is actually quite miniscule and is mostly peon stuff: slaving for foreigners. The largest of the vaunted indian software companies is only 1/10 the size of EDS, for example.

You have to buy the phone.

[Magnus Pym]

In India, the carriers do not subsidize the
cost of the cell phone. Each subscriber
has to buy his own phone... at full price.

If you buy a cell-phone service from Verizon,
verizon spends $200.00 on you the day you
sign up... for the cost of the phone.

That is partly why the service is more expensive in the US.

Magnus.

Wrong. Simputer costs $ 250

[Anonymous Coward]

A Dell Axim can now be had for $ 199. In any case thats more than what an average indian makes in 4 months. It seems stupid beyond belief that a nation so poor cant even compete on price!

Re:Wrong. Simputer costs $ 250

[sonamchauhan]

The Simputer is intended as a community-shared device (hence it's smartcard), but its sad that you're mostly right. The Simputer's progress has been a bit of a disappointment so far, with only development kits available... I wish it's creators had GPL'd/LGPL'd the hardware right from the beginning (IIRC, the software is GPL'd anyway) and had gotten hardware developers the world over involved in on this... this could have done the same thing for the PDA, as Linux did for Operating systems.

Right now, the hardware seems pretty dated (the Dell Axim you mentioned runs 100Mhz faster for $50 less -- but it doesn't have the smartcard, USB, or modem of the Simputer). However, it's the Simputer's software that could be the breadwinner -- the claim is (haven't tested it myself) seamless integration of smart card access, SSL security, document annotation, voice-to-text, etc. Simputer hardware development kits are available, but are expensive. My understanding is the software should compile/work on another StrongARM platform like the IPaq/Cerfcube/Lart, maybe even the Axim!

Quake on a phone

[airiano]

Now all we need is Quake for Java and we'll have college kids playing deathmatches with each other in classroom at 144kbps.


I doubt anyone would want to play Quake on a tiny little cell phone screen. The refresh rates I would assume would be horrible. It's hard enough for some people to frag using the keyboard and mouse, I can imagine how it's going to be using the little arrow keys on a cell phone. This will just be another reason for people to zone out and not pay attention to what they're doing when playing cell phone games.

Re:In Junis-Run Afghanistan

[Anonymous Coward]

I miss Junis! Could it be, though, that Junis was actually Osama Bin Laden in disguise? My good ness, I hope he is okay. I love Junis!!!

Reliance is including the phone

[anandsr]

Granted if you are thinking of keeping your phone bill to a minimum its not exactly very cheap at 600Rs ($13) per month. They are also asking for a 3000Rs ($65) registration charges. But they are claiming to give a phone worth 10,500Rs ($230). So I think they already know what there operating costs would be and they are getting that at the beginning. The phone would be yours if you keep the connection for 3yrs thats like in Western countries. I think the scheme is good.

This is not a govt effort

[anandsr]

For the nth time, you don't have your priorities in the right places. You would much rather give alms to the beggers than create jobs for them. Actually providing food and stuff is like giving alms. You are creating your beggers out of your population. But if you would create jobs they will become self reliant. I am happy that Reliance Industries is doing something like this. This will certainly create a lot more jobs. India seriously lacks basic necessities for development and cheaper communication is among the top. I hope this will spur Indian innovation.

I am sure you will be unhappy when India rises from the ashes it is currently in, because you prefer that they remain beggers forever. I hate people who give alms.

7-11

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello? Apu? I'd like to order a large Squishee. Do you deliver?

Quake for Java...

[PaybackCS]

Don't give John any more ideas... I've been waiting long enough for DoomIII as it is already...

Though, someday he will get probably just bored again and take a half-hour to do it...

Games on tiny screens?

[thisisvinod]

BTW, DOOM is already available for the Symbian OS!

I've tried it on my Nokia 7650 and it works fine. Ofcourse its a tad difficult running backwards shooting when some monster's trying to blast ur head off, but its fun.

Point is, take heed of phones like the Sony Ericsson P800 - Samsung's already coming out with a CDMA phone with the form factor of the P800. IMO, phones now will look like that ONLY.

As for me, i'm an Indian, and what Reliance has managed to do is nothing short of amazing. Its not just the phone market that they are into, but also as an ISP. The backbone optical network will also be carrying data to desktops.

As for the rates, it may sound impossibly cheap to you guys, but its gonna happen - they might increase them in the future, but the benefits are always going to be there. As for the other cell phone operators in the country (Orange, BPL, Airtel, AT&T etc) they must be shitting in their pants.

Re:Games on tiny screens?

[bobs your uncle]

Being a NIR (non-indian resident) from Denmark, I'd never even heard 'bout CDMA before last week. Reliance. Very odd ads. CDMA. Broadband on your cell phone. No more GSM? India outperforming everyone else in this particular field? THIS IS BLISS! And I am getting me one of these: http://www.cellular.co.za/phones/samsung/2001/sams ung_itodo.htm - 800x480 16-bit Reflective TFT LCD Display! Now, cell phones will suffer from low self esteem! :) (Btw, P800 not a CDMA phone :)

View from inside...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm posting as A/C because I am heavily involved in this project. I've been consulting to Reliance Infocomm in various capacities for the past 6 months.

They will succeed with this. Dhirubhai Ambani had a vision that a telephone call between any two people in India would be cheaper than a postcard. They have worked out that based on tariffs of 20 paise per minute with 15 second pulse time (almost all other carriers in India use a 30 second pulse time), they would likely turn a profit in the first year of operation. The only reason the rates went up to 40 paise per minute was the TRAI stepped in with predatory pricing allegations.

Look at Current rates

[tanveer1979]

Fixed line rates are 40paise(0.8 cents) per minute, and inspite of such low rates you have telcos making large profits in fixed line area. Now in GSM the rates are higher (4-5 cents/min). The reason is liscensing fee is very high, on the other hand for WLL (CDMA) the liscencing fee is same as fixed line. So apart from infrastucture costs no issue here. Big volumes = Profit

What, no bitching about them not using GSM?

[Rejemy]

What's happened to the usual Slashdot crowd? Maybe they're off getting their electric cars serviced.

The wheel comes full circle??

[shamir_k]

About India :
India - population 1,000,000,000 , 60 % rural
Middle class - 300,000,000 (mostly in the cities)
Average cell-phone acquistion cost Rs. 4500 ( $90)
Average cell-phone charges Rs. 2 per minute ( $0.04)

Reliance :
Allocated Rs. 200,000,000,000 ($ 4.5 billion) at the end of 2000 to lay optic fibre throughout the country within 2 years.
They are the largest busines group in India and hav revenues in excess Rs. 60,000,000,000 ($ 1.5 Billion) from their existing petrochemical industries. And a fortune 500 company.

The plan is simple, invest huge amounts of money (which nobody else can) to rollout a wireless network across 600 cities (in Phase I!!). reduce charges to the point where nobody else can compete, and provide cutting edge technology. Subsidise handset costs to persuade users to agree to long-term plans. Provide dirt-cheap call rates (even in Indian rupees) so that usage is high. Watch the revenues roll in from a tech-savvy and tech-starved country.

I can testify that there is a lot of excitement in India over this launch. Many, many people are already planning to switch from their existing GSM services. Remember, this launch is aimed at the 300 million middle class, who can well afford this. They are alos planning to introduce video conferencing and other 3G technologies within a year! Large parts of India may get 3G before the US!!

Seems that the world is leaving the US behind in adopting wireless tech. The best part is that the Java services on these CDMA phones is being set-up by a US company (which I will not name), which is starting a development center in India for that purpose. The wheel coming full circle ??? :))

Should I also mention that I submitted this last week?

Remember, every 6th person is an Indian.

Just a bit of mistake there, its $9.60

[anandsr]

its not .08$ its .008$, so the cost comes out to be 9.6$. Go figure.

Any more takers?

[USS.Spock]

It would be pretty interesting if this takes off in other countries too. Look at it this way, you have sooo many ISP's in the US and everybody tries to stuff crap down your throat. The so called "average" bandwidth you guys get is pathetic. If ppl get the same rate what u get here in India, you have opened an entirely new arena. The best part is Reliance is just "one" well know company who have the right infrastructure to pull it off. I would be better off with one ISP than hundreds. What the gain ? * CDMA's cheap (of course) * No brain tumors (radiation is was low) * Everybody's connected (finally) * Ppl start shitting in their pants !! (yup) * Every country starts playing suit. It's really good to hear a "world first" initiative that kicks ass !!!

A relevant addition - lorry drivers

[Anonymous Coward]

A relevant addition:
I come from a small town in south india called Namakkal. It's a truckers town. Many truck drivers carry mobile phones and use it for goods pickup, delivery and directions. Mobile phones are part of their everyday life now. Very much used and cost effective.

Small correction

[Anonymous Coward]

The cost of the service on the network is given as .40 Rupees. The dollar equivalent has been incorrectly put at .8 (.80) .. should read as .08. It seems that this service promises to provide mobile connectivity at very low cost. Even at that low cost, I believe that many people would have incorrectly gauaged how much cheaper this service is by a factor of ten.

great answer!

[hfastedge]

Great reply, it provided me with some good context information that I, as someone whose never visited india, could never have directly gleaned.

IMHO, US has the greatest and strongest economy however current trend of "cutting cost" to serve an unknown master is not doing anyone any good.

Could u please expand on this...?
Or...on hindsight do you think this little comment is more of a reaction than a reality.

Small correction

[CaptSphynX]

The cost of the service on the network is given as .40 Rupees. The dollar equivalent has been incorrectly put at .8 (.80) .. should instead read as .08. It seems that this service promises to provide mobile connectivity at very low cost. Even at that low cost, I believe that many people would have incorrectly gauaged how much cheaper this service is by a factor of ten.

Quake and bandwidth misconceptions

[Jouni]

When throwing these numbers around, do you ever see mentions of network response times? Sure, the bandwidth is a big number but how much difference does it make in practice?

Quake and other forms of twitch gaming do not care that much about the bandwidth. The current cellular phone networks have more than enough bandwidth to handle multiplayer FPS games.

However, what they don't have is the latency to drive games that require sub-second reactions. I have seen no indication from anyone that this would yet happen even with the next generation of cell phones. Even the latest networks employ packet systems that might take anywhere up to several seconds to respond to your query.

Until we actually get some decent ping times on the network, game design has to be centered around other ideas. Like this one about persistent 24/7 galactic exploration & conquest in the style of Master of Orion...

That, and wireless hotspots. Bring on BlueTooth Quake!

Jouni

I guess you are too rich to have humility

[anandsr]

Even a $1000 a year in India is pretty liveable, not by your standards sure, but its liveable. Food is cheap, and clothing is cheap. And if you are not in a city living can be very cheap.

You can't even live with the huge amount of money you have. You are so rich that we are not worth the dust under your feets. You must get so lonely there with nobody being your equal. God must give you the Midas touch so that you can turn your near and dears to gold then you will be happy. You sir are pathetic. Feel happy.

Is life so bad for you, that you can only hate.

[anandsr]

Quick question how much money have you donated for the clean water supply in any place in the world. It obviously is not your job. You just like to hate others. You certainly make a world more liveable by cursing them. Life must be a hell for you to have so much hate.

Guess you are not in India

[anandsr]

If you were, you would have been praying for it rather than bitching about the metered costs.

Makes sense

[ank2]

It makes sense that india is the future of the technology industry, after all its the biggest democracy in the world.

2.5G needs low prices, or bust

[cesarcardoso]

Well, I live in a country (Brazil) where we have both GPRS (on bigger urban centres and very soon nationwide) and 1xRTT (only in some states, because most of the operators took the TDMA way) - hey, at least in the biggest cities (Rio and São Paulo) we can choose the 2.5G.

And? No-go. 128 and 144Kbps are very very cool, always-on is always nice, but the biggest carriers (Telefonica Celular, Telesp Celular, Oi and TIM) charge high prices for the Brazilian reality post-Real devaluation of 3Q 2002; to stay in Rio, Oi, who is aggressively marketing GPRS, charges roughly USD 17/31MB of data, while Telefonica Celular charges roughly USD 20/40MB for 1xRTT (TIM won't charge for GPRS until March) - add the ISP and the headset cost.

If India wants to be successful where others failed, keep the costs down. Go India!

Anyone read this as DMCA?

[moz25]

I read it as "DMCA" at first and I was like... great, another depressing story... then I saw it was CDMA, hehe :-)

Moz.

Last Post!

[alpg]

We are preparing to think about contemplating preliminary work on plans to
develop a schedule for producing the 10th Edition of the Unix Programmers
Manual.
-- Andrew Hume

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