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TiVo to support HDTV by "Year-End"
JMorgan in Seattle writes "TiVo has (finally!) announced support for HDTV. It's a ways off (end of the year), but at least we know that HD TiVo is on the horizon. In two separate press releases, we learn that TiVo will support both standalone and DirecTV hi-def PVRs. TiVo is really on a roll--first Rendezvous support, and now this. Now if only DirecTV would add more HDTV channels..." I've been waiting to get an HDTV receiver for this. Joy.
Which year is the question
-
ping -f 255.255.255.255 # if only
Just a heads-up, if you are currently a DirecTV subscriber, you will need to get the triple-LNB dish to receive all the HDTV signals.
More like -- is it going to support the 90 minute delay
proposal before the FCC?
I.E. Some content can only be viewed no later than 90 minutes after it was recorded, or
not at all.
Is it going to have DVI or Firewire connectors with forced-down low-res on the firewire
is another important one.
Be interesting to know how much faster the hardware has to be to record the full 1080i HDTV stream (or will Tivo cheat and downsample?). Its 20megabits a second I believe, and already comes compressed so the requirements may not be that high. Probably just need a much bigger hard disk.
It will still depend on the resolution at which TiVo stores the video, no matter what the original quality was for the master transmission.
Using the same compression algorithm to get the same file size, the better video quality you start with, the better the compressed version will be.
If TiVo stored the HDTV stream uncompressed, then that would take a heck of a lot more storage space, even more than DVD video takes on a 4.7 gb DVD (about 3 DVD hours=4.7 gb?).
$8.95/mo web hosting
I am interested in Tivo but I really do not like the fact the Tivo requires a subscription. Will the Tivo operate with no subscription?
If you remember, a few days ago I was talking about Dish Network's weak grasp on the market... Does this mean that DirecTV will now completely own the market? Or is Dish Network also supporting HDTV (and consequently TiVo)?
[sig]www.masterslate.org[/sig]
... goddamned recession.. I WANT MY TOYS!!!
Seriously though, time warner in nyc (at least in my 'hood) recently introduced HD-capable boxes and a range of channels (7XX) in HD, including the local broadcast networks and HBO.. IIRC the HD boxes are priced the same as the normal digital boxes and can be swapped with an office visit..
Then again, the next round of upgrades includes an HD-ready set _and_ a new receiver (to handle Xbox, PS2 digital connections).. damn lack of motivation...
Toshiba DVD-R + Tivo box
Remote scheduling, intra-tivo video sharing, and MP3/JPG display on Series2 Boxes
"TK-421, why aren't you at your post?"
Now I'll be able to record the first 5 minutes of my favorite HDTV program!
I'll form my OWN solar system! With blackjack! And hookers!
Hmm.. normal compressed streams from the networks come in at about 19Mb/sec. Even taking it down to 15 hurts the image. It will take an awful lot of disk space to store movies.
That said, I'm greatly looking forward to it -- the only other solution, DVHS is buggy and expensive.
This combined with the new ESPN-HD channel will make my TV purchase worthwhile...
I'd love to get a Tivo, but I'm not about to spend money running a phone line to it. I would be very happy if I could just plug it into my network and have it update itself via my DSL connection that 3 other PC's share. Currently they only support ATT Broadband in their products.
Yeah...and... The TiVo that they have now, doesn't have an HD tuner, or any way to connect it to an external tuner. So you'd be limited to the analog out of an external tuner, which isn't HD, and doesn't require more bandwidth and storage.
So, yes, of course you'll have to buy an HD enabled TiVo if you want to record HDTV.
No you don't. I thought it would be cool having a video game channel but G4 is terrible . Hopefully, some one else will come up with a better version or G4 will get their act together...
Nosce te Ipsum
Fox does not utilize HDTV, only 480p, 16x9. "HDTV" is above 480 --> 720p or 1080i. 480p is better, but not HD.
Without TiVo, I have to watch when they say I'll watch. Improved picture & sound quality is not worth giving up the control TiVo provides.
And with that upgrade, you lose your "life-time" subscription, since it will be tied to your old box. Basically, the break-even point on the lifetime subscription versus the pay-as-you-go is about two years, if I remember correctly. I'm not sure that many people on this upgrade path will make the break-even point.
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You're not paying a subscription to record TV.
You're paying a subscription for a well-updated TV guide, and software updates.
You need never give TiVo any money other than to buy the hardware; if, however, you want the value added services, you pays for them.
Hey, it's better than just auto-bundelling the price into the cost of the unit, aye?
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
HDTV already includes compression--quite a bit of it. I can think of no reason why TiVo would bother to uncompress the signal before storage. TiVo already directly stores compressed digital bitstreams with its DirecTV-integrated receivers. Receiving a broadcast digital TV signal should be no different. The only time TiVo should need to separately compress a signal is when it's receiving plain old analog TV, just as current standalone TiVos already do.
In other words, the storage space required for a program will most likely depend on the format in which it was originally broadcast. TiVo will most likely not muck with the original formatting.
No one with content is willing to risk Broadcast in HD for fear of copyright violations. Plenty of week old hockey games available for viewing though ... hooooray!
Otherwise it's $5 per month for up to 8 PVRs or some other ungodly number of DirecTV enabled TiVos.
The reason that you don't pay is that I suspect your lifetime subscription on the Phillips unit is tied to your account and as such, you're exempt. I could be wrong about that though.
Here is an article in the San Jose Mercury News about it.
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
Is how people have network jacks everywhere but no phone jacks. I'm assuming you have a landline because you have DSL, but maybe I'm wrong. You could just kludge your network jack and steal the brown pair (7&8) for a phone line.
Besides, if you've got DirecTV and their Total Choice Premier package, the TiVo subscription fee is waived. (Or, included in the package, if you prefer to look at it that way.)
Either way, a TiVo subscription for a DirecTV DVR is all of $4.99 with their less-inclusive packages. If you can afford a TiVo, you can afford $4.99 a month.
A good traveller has no fixed plans and is not intent on arriving.
If you want to use it like a VCR, you can do so without a subscription. Just buy the TiVo and turn it on. But I really recommend the program guide - I love being able to say "record all the new Law&Orders" and then it also picks out all of the similar series to record if there is extra space on the hard drive.
-Alison
I know Slashdot is typically very Tivo friendly, and I personally think Tivo makes a great product, but nobody seems to have noticed that Dish networks won the CES best of show award for their new HDTV PVR, the Dish PVR-921.
Read about it here.
It looks like Dish will beat Tivo to the market, as they are entering beta immediately and planning for an April or May release date.
"When the president does it, that means it's not illegal." - Richard M. Nixon
Most HD receviers are capable of receiving any of these formats. HD Monitors/HDTVs on the other hand, they are usually limited in which formats they can natively display.
My Mitsubishi, as an example, displays 480p and 1080i natively. A 720p signal is upconverted to 1080i by the recevier, prior to being tossed at the display.
For those that would die defending it, Freedom
has a sweet taste that the protected will never know.
HDTV FAQ
480p comes in 4 flavors:
704x480 4:3
704x480 16:9
640x480 4:3
Let me throw some facts into this mix. Your analysis is right on, but you need more info.
Uncompressed HDTV requires about 1.3 Gbps of bandwidth to transmit. That's the SMPTE 292M standard for serial digital 4:2:2 YUV 1080i HD. Nobody outside of the TV studio ever sees uncompressed HD.
When a network sends its broadcasts to an affiliate, it's not unusual for that signal to come down at about 45 Mbps over an OC-3. So the signal has already been compressed one time before it ever gets to your local TV station.
The 8VSB transmission standard for broadcast HDTV calls for an effective bandwidth of about 19.3 Mbps between the TV transmitter and your house. So before the signal hits the airwaves, it gets compressed a second time.
So the most your TiVo will ever need to store for over-the-air (OTA) HD is about 19.3 Mbps. That includes the 1080i signal and the Dolby Digital 5.1 audio.
For satellites and (eventually) land-based cable, the facts are a little different, but the gist is the same. I believe DirecTV is currently broadcasting at about 15 Mbps on its various HD transponders.
So all HDTV programming is compressed at least once and down to at least a ratio of about 70:1 before it ever gets to your house. This can be made to work for two reasons. First, your HDTV can't resolve all of the detail in an uncompressed HD frame. The set just isn't capable of it. Second, a good HD encoder can produce a 19 Mbps signal from a 1.3 Gbps signal that is free of visible artifacts. Note that I said a good encoder. Last week's broadcast of "Any Given Sunday" on ABC looked like hammered shit because it had been run through a poor encoder. Macroblocking everywhere. Virtually unwatchable.
So let's say your TiVo stores the incoming signal without additional compression. OTA HD (19 Mbps) requires about 2.5 MB/s of storage space, or about 8.25 GB/h. So a TiVo with an 80 GB hard drive could store nearly 10 hours of HD content, and considerably more SD content. Given that 320 GB hard drives are available, it's easy to imagine a high-end or upgraded TiVo that has room for as much as 70 or 80 hours of HD content. Not half bad.
So to sum up: "uncompressed" HD (meaning HD that is not compressed further once it gets to your house) requires slightly more than 8 GB per hour. Additional compression applied to the OTA or satellite signal is likely to result in very objectionable artifacts, unless TiVo spends a lot of money on their encoder hardware. Since people who buy HD equipment are currently on the high end of the market, it will make more sense for TiVo to spend the money on additional storage and simply omit an HD encoder from the device completely.
A 10-hour TiVo (note that these are 19 Mbps HD numbers only; SD capacities will be four to six times higher) will require one 80 GB HD or two 40 GB HD's. The upgrade path could possibly include adding 80, 160, or 320 GB hard drives to get to a final capacity of up to 80 hours (rounded up) for a few hundred dollars over the base price. Not too bad.
I write in my journal
Negative. You just don't get most of the power of the unit; but you can still use it as a 'digital VCR;' tell it to record such and such a channel at such and such a time, and watch it go.
What you *can't* tell it to do at that point is 'record all new episodes of Law and Order, no matter what channel they're on' and 'I really really like Law and Order, so if there's free space/time, record similar things' and the like.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
"TiVo DVR is intended for use only with a paid subscription to the TiVo service. Without the TiVo service, a TiVo DVR has extremely limited functionality. No functionality is represented or should be expected. Receipt of TiVo service is subject to the terms of the TiVo Service Agreement. TiVo service is accessed through a standard telephone line and is available as a local call in most areas. In some areas, local and long-distance toll charges may apply. "
Current models I guess do work without the subscription, but there's absolutely no guarantee going in that the device will even power on without a subscription.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I know plenty of people who feel the same way. I came into $500 of basically free money so I bought one with a lifetime.
I think Tivo needs to shift to being a software company, and license a base software package to hardware vendors. The guide data should be free or nearly free (eg, $2.95 a month or $25/year).
They can then make money selling new software features and updates. The market could then drive the feature sets, instead of sitting around and hoping for Tivo to implement much-sought-after features (Batch Save, Folders, etc) and having them actually deliver BS features, like watching JPGs on TV.
Their relatively high subscription cost will ultimately kill them, IMHO, especially as cable companies deliver their own PVRs. Crime-Warner is giving away a Scientific Atlanta PVR (dual tuners, etc etc) for nearly nothing to customers with higher-end packages. Same guide data as Tivo (often I've noticed the program descriptions from my SA2100 box are word-for-word identical with Tivo), and many Tivo features.
Tivo is better now, but over time the SA box will be as good for most people, and in some ways better (dual tuner, no crippled channel surfing due to IR relay delays, way cheaper than Tivo for any use less than 5 years, if it breaks they replace it, etc).
Unless Tivo re-thinks what they sell and how they sell it, a box that does what everyone thinks it should and costs well over $500 over its lifetime cannot possibly compete..
Who cares about HDTV? I'd much prefer to see Tivo finally launch in Canada. I'd love to own one of these puppies but the service/hardware has yet to be made available to Canadians. Wake up Tivo!
It's better to burn out than to fade away
If I needed one, I'd get one like this . It is remote controlled so I could set up my ProntoPro's macros to switch to the proper video source.
if you all would stop pirating the DirectTV signal, perhaps they would
</sarcasm>
No kidding, not mention there's no component/progressive out or HD tuner..
"Truth is not decided by majority vote" consensus gentium -- Norman Geisler
Anyone know similar gadget that would work in Europe and or in Finland ?
yush
Sheesh, then buy a friggin VCR. If you want ease of use, suck up the $400 and be done with it.
"Truth is not decided by majority vote" consensus gentium -- Norman Geisler
the lifetime-subscribed boxes yield about a $250 (read: the original cost of a lifetime subscription) premium over those that don't have them.
existing owners (like me) would be prudent to list their tivos before the hdtivo gets released to get max value
>> Essentially, a TiVo without the service is about as useful as a VCR.
All I want is a VCR.
If the service is worth the money, pay for it. To you it is, to me - who watches maybe 3 hours of TV a week - it isn't.
As long as TiVos fine print reads "Without the TiVo service, a TiVo DVR has extremely limited functionality. No functionality is represented or should be expected.", no dice. Basically that says "we reserve the right to make your TiVo a doorstop if the monthly cheques stop coming in."
And all the downmodding and slashvertisements in the world won't convince me otherwise.
I don't get it. We wouldnt accept clauses like that in any other software/hardware EULA - what's so special about TiVo that their business practices are above criticism?
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Look at it as simple ecomonics. Assuming you're employed, and you make even a modest salary - let's say $10 an hour. You watch less tv than the average adult -- maybe only one hour a day.
Having tivo gives you back 12 hours a month that you DON'T spen watching tampon and zit cream commercials.
Free TV is a very poor bargain. Unless your time is absolutely worthless - as in, you're a mindless vegerable being fed through a tube, you're giving Budweiser, Preparation H, and Bob's Used Cars the ONLY thing you can't get more of: Time. For the equivalent of less than the US federal minimum wage.
$12 a month to avoid ever having to listen to some wild-eyed freak pimping soap scum remover? Best bargain I've ever had.
I've sent multiple emails to TIVO's public relations. All I ever get back is a canned message stating TIVO isn't available in Canada. Maybe if thousands of us email them they'll finally see the light and release Tivo in Canada
It's better to burn out than to fade away
You'll have to get your own adaptor for it though. More details on Tivos web site..
... to get TiVo. I'd planned to this spring, but since it looks like I'll have to replace the entire recorder to get the combined HD/standard recording, I might as well wait.
;) I'm already converted.
Fortunately a friend of mine already has one that I've been leeching from and going over occasionally to watch the recordings I've piled up.
Damn you, TiVo, for making me wait to get the one I really want!!
(Or am I wrong and misread the release, and it'll be a software upgrade for existing units, i.e. series2?)
i am a soviet space shuttle
I though so too at one time, especially with the $12/month that Tivo charges. But then I went with the DirectTV Tivo, and I pay $4.99 a month - same as to activate another decoder box.
Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another
I'm holding off buying any HD hardware until at least two of my three major TV uses are available in HD. Since I watch very little OTA television, and even on cable I only watch things I've recorded, having an HDTV for that is pointless.
:) Gives those of us who are waiting somebody to mooch off of for basketball games and movie parties.
When I can some of the following with HDTV, I'll get one:
1. Use my Tivo. (this one's enough by itself)
2. Play console games. (Yeah, yeah, xbox has 720p on a few games, and gamecube does 480p, but limited support doesn't count)
3. Watch DVDs. (slightly better on HD, but DVDs are 480p at best, and only that when the DVD is telecined and the progressive frames can be reconstructed.) When we have HDVD, then I'll be happy.
Besides, this gives me a good excuse to wait for prices to continue dropping on everything. Everybody's different, though-- and if you use your HDTV now, cool.
The Superbowl will once again be in HDTV this year. Here's ABC Sport's press release about it.
CBS had it in HDTV in 2001 - from here Last year FOX had it in their sorry SDTV "high resolution" format. Supposedly the same quality as a DVD, but the Superbowl's image quality last year didn't even come close. They used interlaced cameras and converted it to progressive, so there was a lot of interlace "noise" in the progressive signal. The only benefit was the 16:9. See FOX Turns Chicken On HDTV for more info
TiVo has the capability to use serial control of the Motorola box, bypassing all the IR headaches, but they removed this feature from general release with the 3.0 software release, owing to a deal that grants AT&T a period of exclusivity for the AT&T branded TiVo. This fact only emerged after much discussion on the TiVo forum. Many people are really pissed off. To read the whole depressing mess, read the Official Serial Cable Support Request Thread
Part of the reason people look antennas badly, is that they usually gave crappy reception. Hell, the whole cable industry was succesful because a lot of poeple signed up with the basic cable because they couldn't get decent reception. In theory, the OTA HD signal being digital, many of the old complaints regarding OTA broadcasts should go away, and people will be happy to multiplex the OTA feed with the DirectTV feed in order to enjoy local channels in HD.
Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another
I want a device to record Cartoon Network from 10:00-11:00 PM on sundays so I dont miss Aqua Teen Hunger ...You shouldn't have to pay ongoing fees just to use a device you bought.
And yet, you pay money for cable TV/satellite so that you can use the TV you bought ?
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Also, this confirms with the information on what people will be able to record from HDTV signals. The plan in the above article stated that there would be no restrictions on recording over-the-air broadcasts (read: your local stations), while you could only time shift PPV events by 90 minutes and not save the recording. I'd suspect that other cable stations, basic and premium, would have some restrictions between those cases.
"Pinky, you've left the lens cap of your mind on again." - P&TB
"I can see my house from here!" - ST:
Does anyone know if there are patent issues or something similar preventing it? I've looked all over the net with Google, trying to find a board for PCs that will receive digital cable, and turned up nothing. A few places say things like "no products available" or "we hope to have a product like this someday" but that's as close as I could find.
My brother says the same thing. Of course he's 25 and single.
/. !
Let's see if you have the same attidtude when you are married with a two year old child. In case you didn't know, The Sopranos is not appropriate fare for toddlers. And it is not a matter of needing to record the shitty shows, it a matter of the only decent shows being on at times that conflict with being a parent. You get more out of TV because you can watch something decent when you have a half hour after the kid is asleep.
Read a fucking book.
Hey my advice to you is stay single so you can keep posting your wisdom to
Truth: If it's not one thing, it's another
There is some discussion of file sizes for HD programming, but the only current method for recording HD signal is D-VHS, which requires 25GB/hr using MPEG-2. I dont know what kind of compression the TIVO will use, but you're talking about MASSIVE files.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
Last CES they promised a developer program which suddenly disappeared a few weeks after -- Can you say marketing gimmick?
- MbM
Lets try that another way...
Am I the only one sick of hearing about BOOKS? BOOKS rot your brain. The whole appeal of computers and the internet for me is that I can stay in touch with the parts of collective culture that I want to hear about, and ignore the capitalist fluff that gets forced down my eyetubes through exposure to BOOKS. Supporting BOOK PUBLISHERS and its ilk will eventually help the mass media monopolies exert more control over your computer and viewing habits/preferences.
You know.. this is such complete bullshit. Anything can rot your brain. You are the one who chooses what you watch, read, listen to, etc. Someone else may pick the subject mater and content, but you don't have to pay attention.
VCRs, TiVos, etc all allow you even greater control over the content (i.e. commercials). If ya don't like it don't watch it.
about paying for a Tivo subscription. Perhaps they should change the pricing plan. Instead of the $175 basic unit, you buy a Tivo for $425 and it comes with a $250 mail-in-rebate if you agree to sign up for their $12.95/mo service.
Not mentioned is that DTV is adding a buttload of local channels "by june" including my home region of Roanoke. The only drawback I see is that the networks still won't be in HD on DTV, but my cable company is so backwards that they may never broadcast in HD, preferring - when forced by SD phase-out - to simply down convert to 480i and continue with NTSC signal over cable.
I guess my only fear is the DTV box total hold on the content. If they decide I only get it down-res'd, that's my only viewing option. I suppose what I really want is a modulated RF-out for the HD. That way I can pipe it through my house to my (future) HD-integrated sets, or to my DRM-unfettered PC decoder.
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
- reboots spontaneously, even while we're watching a program.
- mysteriously turns itself off at random times (like Wednesday afternoon), and doesn't come back up. You can't record anything if it's not powered on.
- Let's say you want to watch something that it's currently recording. Like, say, an episode of Farscape that's been running for half an hour, but hasn't finished yet. When you tell the box to start watching the show, it dumps you at the END of the recorded portion (aka LIVE TV).
- That, we can fix. Just rewind back to the beginning of the show. Slight hassle, but not horrible. Then, when the RECORDING ends (irrespective of where in the program YOU are), it dumps you back to the live feed. Not horrible for regular programs, but it sure sucks when you accidently see the final score of the basketball game you were watching.
- So you're halfway through a show, and you go run an errand. While you're gone, your SO watches something else. When you return to watch the rest of your show, the TW box starts at the BEGINNING, not where you stopped watching.
- TiVo has a function where you can record beyond the end of your show. College hoop, for instance, tends to run long, so you can tell it to record an extra half hour to make sure you get the end (and OT, if applicable). The TW has a similar function that you can program, but it doesn't work.
TiVo does all of the above admirably, with a user interface my technology stunted inlaws can use. That $500 never made so much sense, and the TW box is going back when I get a spare moment to do it.ceci n'est pas un sig.
I am surprised there are not patent lawsuits galore since so many PVR's are so similar. That is one thing that could hold back PVR deployment.
TiVo is not well-positioned for success: the software they develop is not that complex, they don't control hardware production or television media distribution, and satellite or cable television companies have experience putting set-top boxes into customer's homes that TiVo can't match. They will almost certainly live on in name, but not much more than that because all the power is in the hands of the media distributors (satellite, cable.)
Without enforcable patents, the only demi-monopolies in the system are the extremely capital-intensive distribution channels: satellites in geosynchronous orbit and millions of miles of buried coaxial cables. Media providers also have some monopoly power, but the distributors have shown they can flex their muscles more effectively in past battles.
personal attacks hurt, especially when deserved
We have two TiVos, one 30hr, one 20hr. We've never had a space problem on the big one, and we've had the 2hr finale of the XFiles on there forever. (We just can't get ourselves to watch it).
We have run into issues on the 20hr, but that's mostly because I like movies and sporting events, so the weekend gobbles up a bunch of programming.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
Nice segue from PVRs to OS ranting there. You forgot Freedom, Patriotism and the American Flag, though.
Slashdot had discussion about the proposal last week.
It's a ways off (end of the year), but at least we know that HD TiVo is on the horizon.
We know no such thing. All we know is that there's a claim that it's on the horizon. Two very different things indeed!
Two words: Vapor. Ware. At least until it's released.
Still waiting for the Commodore Chamelion to be released... :)
Yes, but can TiVo appreciate the delicious irony when Chandler casually insults Joey and the boderline hysterical fake studio audience mechanically laughs in fitful bursts so as not to fall prostrate, contemplate their empty lives and break into waves of mournful wailing and pulling of hair?
I think not.
personal attacks hurt, especially when deserved
...on the day i downgrade my digital cable service to basic cable...
I am just not impressed with whats on TV anymore. Either im surfing the web on my laptop, listening to music on my stereo, or reading.... call it pop culture overload, but i cant think of any shows on anymore that i am fanatical about...
maybe im just growing tired in my old age of 24...
I lost my concept of community when my community lost all concept of me.
Have a look at this thread at avsforum for more details.
New customer? If you go to buy a DirecTV system at Best Buy or the like, they'll try to take an extra $100-$150 for the triple LNB dish. But you can get one for free. Sign up for DirecTV on one of the regular packages (often free after rebate -- try Blockbuster and you also get a year's free DVD rentals), and tell them you want Para Todos, the Spanish network. That comes off one of the other sats, and you'll get a triple-LNB capable dish. Might not have all three LNBs on it, but the 3rd LNB is about $40, and just slots in with no rewiring etc. You don't actually have to by the Para Todos channels, either -- the dish install and program signup seem to be handled separately. (I went through this a couple of months back after reading about it on the Web.)
Not only that, but was covered on Slashdot 2-3 days ago.
TiVo Series2 with a USB Ethernet adapter (Or a Series 1 with a TurboNET card from http://www.9thtee.com/) + Linksys WET11 = Wireless TiVo
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
I'm aware of the bugs of the SA box that TW is shilling, but I can only presume that its being pushed faster than the bugfixes but that the bugfixes will catch up over time and that these annoyances will largely go away. Strangely, I have not read a review of the SA box by someone who doesn't own a Tivo. I wonder if some of the bugs wouldn't be noticed by a non-Tivo user who approaches it from a VCR perspective.
I own a Tivo and I grant you that there are Tivo-specific features I wouldn't trade for the SA box if both were comperably priced. But they're not -- I can get the SA box for $4.95 a month at my cable package level. A 60G series 2 with lifetime is $550 after rebates. I'd need to own it and have it keep working for over 9 *years* before it would be a monetary advantage over the SA box from TW, and in the course of that time the SA box would likely be replaced with a better one at least once, while the Tivo would be probably unsupported or broken in that timeframe.
As these things catch on, the simple economics of Tivo will enable cable companies to crush them. It doesn't mean that the SA is a better box now or even later, but since when does that *cough*betamax*cough*mac* matter?
Some people will buy a better box if they can, but being better isn't enough, it also has to respect the market somewhat. Tivo needs to look at other ways to sell itself: Enhanced guide data via IMDB integration? Selling major software updates instead of subscriptions? "Xterm" Tivos for $99 that can play Tivo content stored on a full-blown Tivo (yes, its a new feature coming up but requires a much more expensive full-blown unit)?
On-the-fly recoding of an 720p or 1080i HD stream to an equivalent resolution mpeg4 file will take a lot of CPU power. I don't think that custom hardware to do even NTSC resolution realtime transcoding to mpeg4 exists. I know that you can just barely do it in software with the fastest P4s and Athlons.
I would bet that the tivo will just be dumping the OTA and DirecTV HD streams right to the hard drive. Doing anything else will require alot of custom hardware.
You could use the early models as just digital VCRs without the service, but that was changed quite a while ago. A Tivo without an active subscription will revert to "Boat Anchor Mode" .
And even for the early models, you have to request to download an old version of the software to keep using it like this.
So you actually are paying a subscription to record TV.
I own 2 Tivos and 200 shares. I love the product as much as anyone. But I think the subscription pricing policy is scaring away at least half the potential customer base. They see it as a sham, and to some extent it is.
Nah, just read this ... you'll be fine.
I would hope they just demodulate the signal and store the stream as it was broadcast...that's how DirecTiVo works. It would take a substantially bigger HD, but that shouldn't be a problem.
(They should still include an MPEG encoder for handling analog broadcasts. Hell, they should've included an MPEG encoder with DirecTiVo so that it could record local TV.)
I doubt the needed hardware is present to do that. In addition to the tuner (which is already present), I'd think that some sort of demodulator would be needed to take the analog signal from the tuner and convert it to a digital bitstream. Due to the bandwidth needed (and the analog input), you're not going to get that with a USB dongle.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
I'm really surprised TiVo's prices haven't dropped, too. I'd think there's gotta be a Laffer curve point somewhere in the $300ish range for box and lifetime. I would think they've gotta be able to make money at that level.
The problem MIGHT be that TiVo licenses its HW manufacture, so Philips/Sony has to make coin on the box itself, while TiVo's really about the SW and programming updates.
Still doesn't solve your issues, though. Maybe it'll happen when TiVo starts getting built into TVs and the like. Frankly, I'm a little amazed that hasn't happened yet. That Panasonic PVR/DVD-RW is just dying for TiVo.
ceci n'est pas un sig.
Dish Network's PVR921 which has DVI output, dual tuners, ethernet support, and HDTV recording won the "Best of Show" at CES
Moxi has announced an HDTV PVR that will be integrated with Cable, the Moxi Media Center. Charter Communications is testing this box right now in St. Louis.
On a related note, I am happy with DVI's winning the interface war for HDTV output, mainly because it does not restrict the signal to MPEG2, which Firewire does. This means when HD-DVDs come out, they can use whatever technology makes more sense (blue laser), and my TV does not have to assume it's MPEG2.
Other links of interest where you could dig up more info on HDTV, or audio/video in general:
DirecTV is seriously screwing up by not getting on the ball when it comes to HDTV.
Free programming is irrelevant to me -- $600 out of pocket for a Sony HDTV-capable IRD is still $600 out of pocket. Whether DirecTV "finances" it or not, I still have to write a check somewhere.
IMHO, they should sell these new IRD's at their cost in order to keep their customers. Sadly, I decided after five years with Direct to go to Time Warner Digital cable because I will get all of my local channels in HD, plus HBO as well. Directsimply could not match that. I won't be getting HDNet, as TWC doesn't have it, but I honestly believe that I would end up wanting the locals more anyway.
Long story short: DirecTV banked on a merger with EchoStar for getting themselves up and running in the HDTV world. It didn't happen and their terrestial-based competition wasn't sleeping. Hence, they lose this round.
I was replying to Brad's comment of since 480p is 4x3, not 16x9. FOX could hardly have their few widescreen shows if 480p didn't support 16:9.
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I can attest to this. I recently moved from one side of a fairway to the other. On the "poor' side, the cable quality is really crappy. Even without being filtered through the TiVo, most programs have disappointing picture quality.
Bad signal quickly accelerates the quality degredation of Tivo recordings.
On the "rich" side of the fairway, cable picture quality is remarkably better. My resulting basic quality recordings are BETTER than most of the high quality recordings I was making before.
TiVo's seem to really love a clean signal. That aspect of HDTV alone may make it worthwhile.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
My series1 TiVo does that with digital cable now without any problems. Of course any compression scheme is going to degrade video quality to some degree. The real question is how much of a degredation you're willing to tolerate.
This is an issue with PVR's in general and is not merely limited to HDTV or digital.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
So you're recording HDTV@9G an hour a 60 hour Tivo would contain $540 worth of disk. Yikes. Plus what is currently $500 of HDTV hardware, you've got yourself a $1000 peice of equipment...
Once a PVR has liberated your viewing habits, you simply don't have any interest in going back to the old kind of TV.
Tivo ruins you for regular TV.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
A couple more things to Google:
One simple rule for its versus it's
Standalone TiVos do. DirecTiVos don't...they record the MPEG-2 stream uplinked by DirecTV. Standalone TiVos can record anything that's on an RF, composite, or S-video signal (including DirecTV, Dish Network, or digital cable...run some cables from the satellite receiver and/or cable box and set up the IR blaster so the TiVo can control both). DirecTiVos can only record what's on the satellite...they can record two of those streams simultaneously, but they lack the hardware to pick up local broadcast or cable channels.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.