S3's DeltaChrome Examined

sand writes "Firingsquad takes a look at DeltaChrome, which is a graphics chip from S3. The core runs at 300MHz and offers pixel and vertex shaders that go beyond DirectX 9, just like Nvidia GeForce FX. The really cool feature though is the integrated HDTV encoder, you can output from your PC or laptop directly to an HDTV or 1080p projector!"

Comments

Woot!

[NfoCipher]

TuxRacer on hdtv! Now I can die happy.

Re:Woot!

[kperrier]

TuxRacer on hdtv! Now I can die happy.

You could have died happy a long time ago. 1600x1200 monitor resolution is a higher resolution than 720p or 1080i HDTV resolution. If you can afford the High-Def TV monitor then you could have bought a graphics subsystem that would support 1600x1200 a long time ago.

Kent

Re:Woot!

[Eccles]

You could have died happy a long time ago. 1600x1200 monitor resolution is a higher resolution than 720p or 1080i HDTV resolution.

Yes, but a computer screen is generally smaller than an HDTV system. Personally, I'm still hoping for 60 inch, 1920x1080 res plasma displays.

Question for anyone who might know; is the response rate of plasma fast enough that it would conceivable that a plasma display could support 3-D shutter glasses? And do any plasma displays currently support 120Hz refresh or higher?

Re:Woot!

[TheCrazyFinn]

Get a Radeon 8500 and the component out cable and do that now, any Radeon 8500, 9500 or 9700 will do component out today (And probably bootstomp the ne S3 chip performance-wise).

Big whoopie frikkin do.

Re:Woot!

[jpc]

I dont think so, I think they are a little slow. Most are 60fps only.

However you can get 60 inch 1360x768 screens, which is approaching you ideal. And very nice they are too, with DVI input (NEC make them).

What about PCI?

[ndnet]

This really doesn't help me. I have no AGP slots on my cheap motherboard...

The big question is, are there going to be any PCI releases faster than the GeForce 2 MX400?

I'd love to get a new system, but I'm tight right now...

Re:What about PCI?

[delta407]

are there going to be any PCI releases faster than the GeForce 2 MX400?

Probably not.

AGP exists for a reason -- PCI isn't fast enough for heavy graphics use. Heck, some SCSI setups can completely saturate the PCI bus, which is why there are other alternatives (like 64-bit PCI or AGP).

I'd love to get a new system, but I'm tight right now...

Then why would you be considering hundreds of dollars for a new video card when you can probably get a replacement motherboard for under $50?

Re:What about PCI?

[jonnythan]

Get a better motherboard.

They're significantly cheaper than modern graphics cards.

Re:What about PCI?

[eetvar]

Actually, that is also a relevant question to those people with agp motherboards, who want to add a second display adapter to their systems.

The top-of-the-line adapters often have dual-head capability these days, but there are people who are interested in decent secondary display adapters.

Re:What about PCI?

[cp5i6]

Whatever that guy said about the SCSI and pci... is ummm a bit off... that only happens when you have a scsi controller integrated with you pci bus... and if you have a slow scsi controller one that runs at 33mhz.. then yer not going to slow down your system bus.


But yes they do sell teh Geforce 4 MXs in a pci version you can buy a few of teh ATIs too but nvidia has better driver support.

Re:What about PCI?

[Midwedge]

Try

http://www.pny.com/home/products/Vcard_MX440_sePCI .cfm

Verto GeForce4 MX 440-SE PCI

NewEgg has them for $82

Its not the best/newest chip set, but seems to me it should be better than a GF2.

Re:What about PCI?

[ndnet]

Then why would you be considering hundreds of dollars for a new video card when you can probably get a replacement motherboard for under $50?

Simple. First off, I don't need latest and greatest, and PCI IS usually cheaper. Second, A new mobo would need a new case, since I have a cheap IBM, and probably a new processor to replace my Celeron 566.

AGP exists for a reason...

I know. However, just because it exists doesn't mean absolute abandonment is necessary. Heck, a second screen on those single AGP-slot equipped systems could be done via PCI.

On a side note however, what is PCI (32 and 64 bit) throughput? If it's less than, say, 300MBPS, couldn't an external USB2 videocard be made? (I know USB2 is 480MBPS, I'm just leaving bandwidth for other devices.)

Re:What about PCI?

[xt]

Take a look at the ATI Radeon 7500. There exists a PCI version with 64MB DDR RAM on board. It should be quite fast.

Re:What about PCI?

[Viewsonic]

Not really, no .. PCI has pretty much hit the speed limit .. To get faster, you're going to need a faster processor, and for that, you're going to need a faster bus .. You're stuck with what you have, or you're gunna have to upgrade to a 4Ghz P5 with 2Gb RAM for $100 bux..

Re:What about PCI?

[ndnet]

Ok, you tell me where, I'll buy it on Thursday (payday)....

Re:What about PCI?

[jandrese]

That's one of the oddest things I've seen asserted on Slashdot in quite some time. "SCSI integrated with you(r) pci bus". Aren't all PCI SCSI cards integrated with the PCI bus? Or none of them are, depending on how you look at it. The original poster's comment was that high end SCSI cards can saturate the PCI bus (definatly true, the PCI bus is a major bottleneck these days for people doing massive IO on PCs for whatever reason). Even slow technologies like Gigabit Ethernet can easily saturate a PCI bus.

Re:What about PCI?

[gazbo]

You don't need a new video card. You'll see most improvement from a new CPU, believe it or not, despite all of the work that hardware t&l etc should be taking off your processor's workload.

Re:What about PCI?

[ndnet]

That I may have to look into. I've seen it but thought it was about equal. Time to crunch numbers....

Re:What about PCI?

[ndnet]

I agree, however, I'm trying to stagger upgrades. If I buy a better PCI video card, I can scoot in in the new system I'll buy in a year or so.

Re:What about PCI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nope. A full fledged GF2 will tie or beat a GF4MX.

If it says MX, avoid it.

Re:What about PCI?

[Curien]

On a side note however, what is PCI (32 and 64 bit) throughput?

Depends on the flavor of PCI. Most PCs' PCI bus is 33MHz x 32-bit, giving 133MB/s of bandwidth. That's *shared* between all of your PCI devices, btw (and don't forget that on older motherboards, the north- and southbridges talk to each other using the PCI bus). Some systems have 66MHz PCI, some have 64-bit PCI, some have both.

Re:What about PCI?

[Zathrus]

I know. However, just because it exists doesn't mean absolute abandonment is necessary. Heck, a second screen on those single AGP-slot equipped systems could be done via PCI

They used to be, but nowadays the video cards have multiple DACs. My GF4 Ti4200 has two outputs on it for two monitors. Matrox has cards that can drive up to four monitors at once.

It's no longer necessary to have more than one video card to have multiple monitors.

On a side note however, what is PCI (32 and 64 bit) throughput

The PCI you find in your average computer is 133 MBps - 32 bit, 33 Mhz. On servers you may find faster PCI backbones, and I believe the top of the line with the current PCI spec is 64-bit at 66 MHz, giving you 533 MBps transfer rate.

If it's less than, say, 300MBPS, couldn't an external USB2 videocard be made

USB2 is 480 Mbps, not MBps. That's a whopping 60 MB/s, which is well below even PCI 1.1. Oh, and you'll never actually get 480 Mbps from a USB2 device, since that's maximum theoretical speed and never approached in reality.

PCI is less and less viable for graphics as we move on... the bandwidth just isn't there. IIRC, even the GF4MX cards are crippled on a PCI bus... which is pretty pathetic. I don't expect to see any more advanced 3D cards made available on that bus.

Re:What about PCI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yes, I agree, I can't wait to get a GeForce FX for my Commodore 64.

I swear, some people...

Re:What about PCI?

[be-fan]

PCI is about 1 GBit per second. An external USB2 videocard would be impossible because of the overhead and latency of a USB connection.

Re:What about PCI?

[Zathrus]

there are people who are interested in decent secondary display adapters

Define "decent".

If you want a second monitor for just doing debugging, coding, text display, etc. then just about any video card will work just fine. And there's plenty of choices in that arena.

If you want a second monitor for additional display area for 3D projects and similar high-performance needs then you're already better served in getting a modern card -- which, as you say, will have dual head capabilities built in. Even if you found a PCI card with decent 3D it would be crippled by the PCI bandwidth.

Dual head isn't limited to top-of-the-line either... I bought a GF4 Ti4200 card about 2 months ago for a bit over $100 and it has 2 outputs (1 VGA, 1 DVI, and came with a DVI->VGA converter). There were several less expensive/capable cards available as well that had dual head.

Re:What about PCI?

[Anonymous Coward]

Cat got your tongue?

No, but I got my tongue up your pussy!

Re:What about PCI?

[vadim_t]

Heh, the idea of an USB monitor is really funny.

Let's see...
1600 x 1200 x 4 (32bit color) x 75 Hz = 549 MB/s
1024 x 768 x 4 x 75 = 225 MB/s
640 x 480 x 2 (16 bit color) x 75 = 43 MB/s

USB2 badwidth: 480Mbps = 60 MB/s

Pretty useless I'd say. Besides in USB2 the computer needs to control the data transmission, so the 480Mbps hasn't been reached in practice. Add to that the overhead of the protocol and maybe a device or two on the bus... and then the 133 MB/s limit of the PCI bus which might be saturated with hard disks or a sound card.

Maybe an Athlon could do it, but then you'd need a new motherboard anyway.

Re:What about PCI?

[Jaysyn]

Is that basically the same as a GForce4 MX? I've seen one of those in PCI for $80.

Jaysyn

Re:What about PCI?

[rpillala]

Gainward has a Geforce 4 MX 420, but I don't know if it's faster than GF2MX400. I always skip at least one upgrade cycle so I've been ignoring the Geforce4 cards.

I orginally noticed this card at the Mini-ITX store (http://www.mini-itx.com) as a replacement for onboard graphics that accompany ITX form factor motherboards. So one application would be media box PC's. The VIA EPIA series of motherboards don't have AGP slots.

Ravi

Re:What about PCI?

[stilwebm]

The maximum throughput of a 32bit PCI bus at 33MHz 133MB/s, over twice that of USB2. Jump to 32bits at 66MHz and you double that to 266MB/s or make it 64bit at 33MHz to get 266MB/s. And 64bit at66MHz takes it to 533MB/s. Note that this is not the same as the Mbps USB and FireWire are widely reported - I'm reporting megabytes, the numbers you mention are megabits.

You can calculate the speed as follows:
Clock speed (MHz) * bus width = throughput in Mbits/sec
Mbps / 8 = MB/s

Re:What about PCI?

[Jaysyn]

You could always get one of those NForce mobos & kill 2 birds with one stone.

Jaysyn

Re:What about PCI?

[Anonymous Coward]

You should hold off on getting a video card until you upgrade the rest. If I'm correct in assuming that you want it for gaming, then you will be unhappy with its performance in relation to the other upgrades.

You can get a new motherboard, 1.3GHz Duron processor and 256mb DDR RAM from newegg.com for $150. Add another $35 for a cheap case, and you will have an upgrade that will make you much happier than a PCI video card will. Then you can get a cheap GeForce 3 or GeForce 4 Ti4200 when you want to upgrade your video.

No it's not instant gratification, but you will be much happier in the end.

Re:What about PCI?

[stilwebm]

I don't know how they stand in relation to the GeForce 2 MX400, but I've seen the GeForce Ti4600, and the Radeon 7500 at my local CompUSA. If CompUSA has them, there have to be better cards out there. In any case, these would be excellent for adding a monitor to a computer.

Re:What about PCI?

[gl4ss]

theres pretty good radeon 9000 pci card out there..
there was one review with placed it against radeon 9000-agp.. did pretty well against it except when there was some things that just choked up the pci bus (doesn't happen that often on games really..)

Re:What about PCI?

[cp5i6]

Eh mis wrote.. was talking about integrated scsi controllers in the motherboard.. then you wouldn't saturate the pci bus. You would saturate the system bus.

And on high end systems if you ever open one up (like the sun e10ks) they have a proprietary interface cards and can easy handle the bandwidth for most usage.

Now looking at the scsi subsystem. A scsi subsystem does not saturate the pci bus if you're doing intensive I/O transfer between devices on the Scsi controller itself. The only time you're going to have that problem (well an obvious one at least) is if you don't have enough ram and you're constantly swapping between ram and hard disk and even then if you tell me a high end system is going to be pressed with intensive i/o transfer for swap I'd say you're probably abusing the life span of the system.

now let's say you have a gigabyte ethernet card taht connects directly to your scsi controller. Again I see no reason why the pci bus would get saturated because the Gigabit controller would simply be talkign along the scsi controller's bus and sticking the data to a scsi hard drive. (again we're talkinga bout high end cards on high end systems. not the ones you an me where we mix ide and scsi together).

So I apologize for the previous misposting of information and I hope this clarifies what I'm talking about.

And yes... they do have pci Geforce 4MXs ( I think PNY makes em)

Re:What about PCI?

[Zathrus]

The nForce2 MB's are rather expensive... $100-150 w/o integrated video. I never bothered looking for pricing on the IGP chipset since I wouldn't wish it upon anyone I don't actively dislike.

The integrated video sucks... it's GF4 MX quality at best, and in actuality worse - because it has no memory and instead uses AGP transfers from main memory for all memory needs -- not just textures, but rendering buffers as well.

Frankly, the original poster is putting the cart before the horse.. He's much better off buying a new MB and everything that goes with it than trying to buy any video card. Buy some PCI card now and you'll be crippled with a new CPU and modern MB.

Re:What about PCI?

[TheCrazyFinn]

The low end POS adaptors are often Dualhead as well.

The Radeon 7000 and 9000 are available in dualhead configs, ditto the FeForce2MX's and GeForce4MX's.

Re:What about PCI?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Then why would you be considering hundreds of dollars for a new video card when you can probably get a replacement motherboard for under $50?"

Maybe he doesn't want to void his warranty? I don't know what he's got going, but my gf has an eMachines with a pretty good warranty. If it dies within 3 years of purchase, they'll just replace the machine. Anything they replace it with today is bound to be faster than she has now.

Slashdot's all about choices.

Re:What about PCI?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Heh, the idea of an USB monitor is really funny.
Let's see...
1600 x 1200 x 4 (32bit color) x 75 Hz = 549 MB/s
1024 x 768 x 4 x 75 = 225 MB/s
640 x 480 x 2 (16 bit color) x 75 = 43 MB/s
USB2 badwidth: 480Mbps = 60 MB/s
Pretty useless I'd say. Besides in USB2 the computer needs to control the data transmission, so the 480Mbps hasn't been reached in practice. Add to that the overhead of the protocol and maybe a device or two on the bus... and then the 133 MB/s limit of the PCI bus which might be saturated with hard disks or a sound card."

It could be done with real-time data compression, like MPEG4. The bandwidth for HDTV is nowhere near as high as you've got listed up there.

Re:What about PCI?

[vadim_t]

Yeah, only that you'll need a card that will compress it. And then it'll pretty much lose the point. I doubt even modern computers can compress 1024x768 video at 60 fps in real time. Decompression is usually much faster than compression, BTW.

Re:What about PCI?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Yeah, only that you'll need a card that will compress it. And then it'll pretty much lose the point. I doubt even modern computers can compress 1024x768 video at 60 fps in real time. Decompression is usually much faster than compression, BTW."

Yep, you're right. That's basically what USB devices do today anyway. We'll reach that point eventually.

Re:What about PCI?

[lmfr]

"The PCI you find in your average computer is 133 MBps - 32 bit, 33 Mhz. On servers you may find faster PCI backbones, and I believe the top of the line with the current PCI spec is 64-bit at 66 MHz, giving you 533 MBps transfer rate."

It was, until a few months ago. The new PCI-X spec allows (AFAIK) a top frequency of 133Mhz and 64bits bus width. Almost 1GBps.

Re:What about PCI?

[VistaBoy]

Ok, if you want to game, you're going to need to get an AGP motherboard eventually. I suggest the ECS K7S5A ($50 or so). I use it and I haven't had any problems except for occasional CMOS checksum errors. All it takes to fix it is to reset the time and bus speed. Minor inconvienience, but otherwise a very nice motherboard. Besides, all my friends with the same board don't get that problem.

Re:What about PCI?

[LookSharp]

are there going to be any PCI releases faster than the GeForce 2 MX400?
Probably not.

Actually, go to CompUSA and you'll find stacks and stacks of Radeon 7500 PCI and GeForce4 MX440 PCI cards, at not terribly jacked-up prices. IN fact, this Radeon 9000 has dual monitors and TV out for under $100, and that would SPANK a GF2 mx200.

PCI isn't fast enough for heavy graphics use

Actually, they did a review of PCI Radeons versus AGP ones last year (wish I could find the article), and at that time, the PCI card performed at about 80-90% of the AGP card with the same chipset and RAM. Even though AGP 8x has the possibility of running at 533MHz, not many systems will come close to being able to manage all that data across AGP, CPU, and memory. For average gamers, an older PC with only PCI slots... $100 for a GF4 MX440/64 meg PCI card will get them through to the next system upgrade; which brings us to:

you can probably get a replacement motherboard for under $50?

Very true, but you also need a CPU and new RAM (in most cases) as well. Almost everything is DDR now. Even if you get an ECS K7S5A, which can use your old PC133 RAM OR PC2100 DDR, you still have to drop 60-200 dollars for an Athlon to run on it.

Now, I'm all about cheap components and such, but if the guy has $100 for a vid card but doesn't have $400 for a CPU, RAM, mobo *AND* Vid card, maybe buying the Radeon 7500 or GF4mx is the right thing. Otherwise save the bucks and wait for the other $300, and get the DDR ram and nice CPU too.

Re:What about PCI?

[Directrix1]

So kill it!

Re:What about PCI?

[vigata]

That your graphics card is scanning the monitor at 75Hz doesnt mean that there are 75 frames per second going over the the AGP bus. Actually if no pixels are chaning in the screen the data transfered through the bus must be close to 0 MB/s.

Re:What about PCI?

[vadim_t]

Ah, but I understood this as a monitor with an USB plug. Since AFAIK monitors have no RAM inside them they just have to get all the 75 frames per second from the card.

Besides, a game or video would require pretty much the full bandwidth

Re:What about PCI?

[abdulla]

Do you play music while you do your day to day things on the computer? I find if i don't enable AGP acceleration (by not running agpgart) I find I get a lot of artifacts in the music.

Re:What about PCI?

[ndnet]

As I've mentioned, whlie I'd love to, it isn't practical for at least 6 months.

I have only one ATX case. It's a small tower. Two 5.25 drive bays, one 3.5, 3 PCI slots and an AMR slot.

Now, if I get a new MOBO, this case is USELESS. Why? First, I'm hoping to get more slots, preferably an AGP slot for one thing.

Second, what are the chances that I can find one that WOULD fit?

Third, wouldn't the ports also be rearranged a bit?

I do plan on an overhaul someday soon, but right now it's impractical. I'm just asking in case it STAYS impractical.

Also, as another poster pointed out, PCI video cards are nice for second displays. Yeah, they make dual-head monitors, but then both displays share the same video card AND are typically not the most high-end chipsets. Also, if I buy a nice high-end card and then decide I'd like a second display, what then?

Hence, I consider PCI video cards still practical. And with PCI X as yet another poster mentioned, throughput will become high enough (1 GB/sec), not to help me now, but be reasonable in the future since most systems, if they have an AGP slot, have one, not two.

Re:What about PCI?

[Zathrus]

Second, what are the chances that I can find one that WOULD fit?

Pretty good. Go take a look at microATX motherboards, which is the form factor you appear to have.

Third, wouldn't the ports also be rearranged a bit?

Which is why the backplates on cases are removable. Even if IBM was stupid and didn't do this, it's amazing what a Dremel can do.

Also, as another poster pointed out, PCI video cards are nice for second displays. Yeah, they make dual-head monitors, but then both displays share the same video card AND are typically not the most high-end chipsets. Also, if I buy a nice high-end card and then decide I'd like a second display, what then?

Read my other posts on this. And you're wrong - the high end chipsets all come with dual (or more) head display capability now. Integrated onto the boards and built into the drivers. Running dual head has never been easier.

If you need more display capability than what a modern card provides, then yeah, you'll need a PCI graphics card. And you're deeply unlikely to be needing high speed graphics on it since you already have 1 or 2 monitors with full 3D, high-speed graphics. If you need more than that then you need a graphics workstation, not a PC.

And with PCI X as yet another poster mentioned, throughput will become high enough

PCI-X is not a viable standard for the desktop. It's intended for servers only. The cost to develop a PCI-X MB or adaptor board is huge. There are some other high-speed buses that are likely to come to the desktop in the next few years, but that's not going to help your situation at all. If a new bus is standardized on and is faster than AGP then graphics card makers will move to it, and quickly. But PCI is not viable for high end graphics cards, period.

Oh, and you can't have more than one AGP slot on a system. It's not allowed by the spec.

Honestly... you can buy a new MB, CPU, and case for the price of a good graphics card nowadays. They won't be stellar performers, but a faster card on that Celeron won't buy you much at all.

Re:What about PCI?

[ndnet]

I know. I plan an upgrade.

Re:What about PCI?

[phoenix_rizzen]

32-bit, 33MHz PCI has a total bandwidth of 133 megabytes per second.

USB 2.0 has a total bandwidth of 480 megaBITS per second, which is only 60 megaBYTES per second, not even half of the PCI bus.

HDTV resolution?

[Ron Harwood]

What is the resolution of HDTV?

Re:HDTV resolution?

[ndnet]

Being a cheap bastard, I'm borrowing this from ABC.com's FAQ.

Benefit: Picture Resolution
Resolution is a measure of picture sharpness. Current analog television contains about 480 active scanning lines resulting in a picture resolution of about 330 lines of resolution. By comparison today's VHS VCR's have about 240 lines of resolution which is why VHS recordings don't look as sharp as the original picture. DVD's offer higher resolution typically on the order of 400-480 lines of resolution. (Note the number of scanning lines does not equal resolution. For example, both the VHS and DVD formats have 480 active scanning lines but have different resolutions.) HDTV offers resolution that is at least twice that of analog television. You can expect razor sharp images from HDTV.

I have heard that there are two HDTV formats -- 720p and 1080i. Is there a difference between these formats and can my television receive both these formats?
Regardless of the HDTV format being broadcast, all new HDTV receivers can receive both formats. New HDTV televisions will convert any received signal to a format that is compatible with your new display. The 720p format uses progressive scanning, which is just like your computer monitor. Progressive scan offers crystal clear images that virtually eliminates those scanning lines that are visible on most large screen televisions. ABC broadcasts all of its programming using the 720p format except in Dallas, where the ABC station broadcasts in 1080i. Many new flat panel displays use progressive scan. The 1080i format uses interlace scanning just like today's analog televisions. Scanning lines are less visible on big screens due to the number of lines. Most currently available projection HDTV's use 1080i.

Re:HDTV resolution?

[TheEnglishPatient]

Much of the above helpful info is only true if your tv system uses NTSC which those of use in Europe don't.

Re:HDTV resolution?

[mark_lybarger]

aw, what a PAL :)

typing garbage to fill the twenty seconds to post a message.... blah blah....

Re:HDTV resolution?

[composer777]

To keep it simple.

480i = 640x480 interlaced at 60 Hz refresh
480p = if it is in 4:3 mode then it is 640x480 60 Hz refresh
if it is in 16:9 mode then it is 720x480
at 60 Hz refresh
720p = 1280x720 non-interlaced at 60 Hz refresh
1080i = 1920x1080 interlaced at 60 Hz refresh
1080p = 1920x1080 non-interlaced at 60 Hz refresh

Most HDTV's support 480i, 480p, and 1080i, some of the better ones also support 720p, and some top of the line models will support 1080p.

Re:HDTV resolution?

[cybrthng]

NTSC:

480i = Interlaced

HDTV:

480p = Progressive (depends really.. 480p can be 640x480 or 704x480 (dvds))

720p = 1280x720 - Progressive

1080i = 1920x1020 - Interlaced

** Most TV's are scaling the image either way. 1080i tv's upspace 720p and 720p's downscaler 1080i.

My eyes prefer 720p, and it looks great on my front projection system (Tony Hawk 4, NBA2k3 on xbox look fantastic).

I'm also very impressed with Windows Media 9 and 720p based data. Very nice playback on an XP1700 to my projector! Can't wait to build my own PVR on this technology.

BTW, supporting HDTV is supporting the resolutions. Most HDTV sets support DVI, DB15 (vga) and component, so this S3 stuff isn't "new"

Re:HDTV resolution?

[gjt]

Most HDTV's support 480i, 480p, and 1080i, some of the better ones also support 720p, and some top of the line models will support 1080p.

Really? Which ones support 1080p?

Re:HDTV resolution?

[Quikah]

Last I heard there was no HDTV in Europe. Has this changed recently?

Re:HDTV resolution?

[Sgs-Cruz]

Actually, I don't think any consumer HDTVs support 1080p. I think only one digital projector does... the JVC DLA-QX1G can do 2048x1536 at 60Hz, but it's MSRP is either $60K or $130K, I can't remember :)

What you're thinking of is 1080p/24 which is the new digital movie standard pioneered (not invented, just championed) by George Lucas. It keeps the old film rate of 24 fps to maintain the "shroud of the movies" or something (i.e., they LIKE the low frame rate for some reason).

Re:HDTV resolution?

[hamburger lady]

Which ones support 1080p?

check out the new LCOS RPTVs from Toshiba

there are also LCOS and CRT projectors that can resolve 1080 lines of vertical resolution.

Re:HDTV resolution?

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing is that with reverse telecine (aka 3:2 pulldown) we can take a 1080i/60Hz signal and produce 1080p/24 without much difficulty at all. Lots of people are already recording 1080i hdtv broadcasts of movies via stalleite ppv and/or hbo/showtime and converting them to 1080p video which looks mighty good - and althought it is almost verboten to say this kind of thing around here, Microsoft's latest video-encoder can encode 1080p video at a rate sufficient to fit more than an hour of video on a 4.6GB DVD-R and still look indistinguishable from the original MPEG2 source.

Home-made high-def DVD is already here today.

This sure would be nice

[Uhh_Duh]

I've got a desktop computer hooked into my HDTV media center (a Sony WH11HT HDTV projector with an Onkyo THX receiver). When I hook the output of the computer to the system via S-Video (and keep in mind this is a MASSIVE 120" screen in HDTV) I can only put the resolution as high as 800x600 before the text becomes too blurry to read. This should correct that.. hooray!!

Re:This sure would be nice

[ignipotentis]

well, for starters S-Video isn't going to allow you to send a signal past 800x600. Switch it to component video out if you want to actually use your HD options.

Re:This sure would be nice

[SkreamNet]

The thing is, it's down downsampled to NTSC resolution anyways. You're not even getting 800x600 over SVHS.

HDTV out

[evilviper]

you can output from your PC or laptop directly to an HDTV or 1080p projector!

Ooohhhh, ahhhh... I'm impressed really... Did I mention that the latest ATI All-In-Wonder has had HDTV out since it was released... some time ago.

Re:HDTV out

[Afrosheen]

Yeah S3 is the famous 'too little too late' company. Something has to be keeping them alive besides their chronic late-to-market and worse-than-others video chipsets.

I bet they're having fab problems, retoolilng for a .13 micron process isn't cheap or fast, and that's if they manufacture chips themselves, which I imagine they do.

Will anyone ever be able to provide a REAL alternative to Nvidia and ATI? I seriously doubt it. When you get to the level the Big Two have reached, cost of entry is insanely high, kinda like the Big Two of processors (Intel and AMD). There will always be one or two companies with products a few years behind in the technology race that have price on their side, but for performance, unfortunately, we just don't have much choice.

I'm not complaining though, my Geforce4 ti4200 runs like a champ, but it'd be nice to have more options in the future.

Re:HDTV out

[stratjakt]

Yeah, but the latest all-in-wonder (I believe you're talking the 9700 Pro incarnation?) costs a pretty penny.

Savage makes nice cheap chipsets, and they frankly perform well enough for most everything you'd want them to do. They'll most definately worm their way onboard, as well, which would bode well for extremely small form factor devices (Flex-ATX stufflike Shuttles spacewalker series).

A tiny little HDTV-ready media/gaming shoebox sounds tasty to me.

Nothing they ever make will win the power/features war, but they do well in the pricing arena.

Re:HDTV out

[ecc0]

Will anyone ever be able to provide a REAL alternative to Nvidia and ATI?

A few years ago, you would probably have said the same things about 3Dfx and Matrox, or something. And before ATI released their Radeon, which wasn't long ago, most of their cards were rather cruddy. Card manufacturers come and go.

Re:HDTV out

[evilviper]

Although not exactly average consumer-level products, Matrox is still going very strong.

S3 seems to be in there with SIS, making extremely low-cost products for built-in video. Unfortunately, there aren't many boards that give you built-in NVida or ATI video-chips, so I think it will be some time before they go away.

Re:HDTV out

[evilviper]

I can't believe you would think that HDTV-out would make it onto MoBos with built-in video... Hell, I have yet to come across a single one with composite OR S-Video out. I don't thing that HDTV will come first, so don't expect to see HDTV connectors on your next $300 computer.

Re:HDTV out

[evilviper]

Apparently, I underestimated ATI... HDTV adapters are available for their most recent cards (9700), down to their older Radeon 8500s, and it's not just limited to their All-In-Wonders...

http://www.ati.com/products/pc/hdtvadapter/
htt p://www.techtv.com/screensavers/products/story/ 0,24330,2174896,00.html

Re:HDTV out

[Overzeetop]

Um...it's nice that they have a ready to go adaprter, but two years ago the lowliest of Gforce cards could be set to HDTV standard outputs with third-party software (YXY, IIRC). That's how I put up a 720p image on my 10HT projector, as it would not allow a pixel-for-pixel (768x1365) map of the display LCD via RGBHV input. Had to send it out as a component.

Not that it helps...HDTV reception (ASTC tuner) is still north of $300, even as a PCI card.

Re:HDTV out

[Afrosheen]

As long as there are no more crappy Intel i810 chips integrated into motherboards, people should be happy.

Re:HDTV out

[evilviper]

Actually, I have come across a SiS video chipset which was quite horendous. So, it's not exactly salvation from crap. I would love to see decent chips like ATI/NVida embedded, instead of the current line of (mostly) crap.

I would also like to see ALL network cards become based on the TULIP (DEC) chipset (as are Linksys and D-Link cards), all low-end sound cards AC'97 compatible, and all modems doing hardware-based processing.

Re:HDTV out

[stratjakt]

VIA Eden (mini-itx.com)
Shuttle FV-25

That's just two off the top of my head.

Heck, just do a search on pricewatch, there are many many boards with integrated tv-out features.

Re:HDTV out

[TheCrazyFinn]

Actually, this has been available since the AIW Radeon 8500LE and 8500DV came out, the AIW 9700 Pro was simply the first to actually bundle the cable.

The 7500 doesn't support component out.

Re:HDTV out

[Afrosheen]

Well, we can all dream, can't we?

I'd actually rather see all motherboards (at least the ones that try to save you cash/remove your options) shipped with nvidia embedded, an emu10k1 chip for audio (screw ac97 and the horrible codec/processor time it uses), and the Tulip chipset for nics.

Modems doing hardware processing is a pipe dream. No wait, it's nearly ancient history at this point as fewer and fewer manufacturers even build internal ones anymore. You can take solace in the fact that USR will probably always make a nice 56k serial port hardware modem for $200. It's amazing that over the years, external modems just never got cheaper.

Re:HDTV out

[evilviper]

Ahh! The very definiton of redundant.

Next time, try to check the other posts before you shoot one off.

Re:HDTV out

[TheCrazyFinn]

Note that I'm the only one who specified which current ATI cards support HDTV out, dumbass.

Re:HDTV out

[abiogenesis]

Where did you see a USR external sold for $200??? You can buy them for $40 or less...

Re:HDTV out

[Afrosheen]

Last time I went to Best Buy...they're not the cheapest but they're definitely more expensive than winmodems or nics. Once broadband has enough penetration (maybe in 2020) modems will be a thing of the past.

Re:HDTV out

[Anonymous Coward]

i think this probably might have something to do with there not being provision for composite or S-Video out on the standard ATX 2.01 I/O shield.

Re:HDTV out

[evilviper]

an emu10k1 chip for audio (screw ac97 and the horrible codec/processor time it uses)

Well, I'm not a big fan of AC97, but at least it's one single standard. No doubt an SB Live chipset would be nice, but they'd drive up the cost by about $30, so don't expect much.

The Tulip chipset is very inexpensive (Linksys PCI cards using it are only $15), and ATI/Nvida have some very inexpensive video chips of their own.

You can take solace in the fact that USR will probably always make a nice 56k serial port hardware modem for $200.

What is ironic about the whole thing, is that you cane get MUCH better performance with a hardware modem. If people saw the difference in performance, hardware modems would be very popular... At any price

Years ago I bought my external USR modem for just over $100, and that was when v.90 was brand-new, so I suspect they will be reasonably cheap at this point.

It looks like the cheapest external modem on pricewatch is $12, so an internal one, especially if integrated, would be much cheaper than even that.

Re:HDTV out

[evilviper]

most recent cards (9700), down to their older Radeon 8500s

That sounds like a specification to me.

Ahh, name-calling, the most popular argument tactic on slashdot, especially among those who have nothing else to say on the topic.

1080P

[draggy]

where are the 1080 progressive scan TVs/projectors? I want one!

Re:1080P

[kperrier]

There is no 1080p HDTV resolution. 1080 is only available in an interlaced format, hence 1080i. 720p is the highest preogressive output you can go.

Kent

Re:1080P

[draggy]

which is the reason for my question... since the poster wrote 1080p

Re:1080P

[TheCrazyFinn]

Bzzt, wrong.

Toshiba is even shipping a 1080p TV.

Re:1080P

[kperrier]

Bzzt, wrong.

Toshiba is even shipping a 1080p TV.

Hum, my reply has not shown up yet, so my apologies if this appears twice.

You have a link for this product? Software companies are not the only ones to produce vaporware.

What is is the point in purchasing such a beast anyway? All of the current HD content is boradcast in either 1080i or 720p. HDNet, the largest provider of HD contentent out there, broadcasts in 1080i. ABC uses 720p, CBS and NBC uses 1080i.

Why would you want to spend money on a machine that supports a format that there is not any content for?

Kent

Re:1080P

[xswl0931]

I believe 1080i is the highest HDTV resolution, but that doesn't mean someone can't de-interlace it to 1080p. It is true that Toshiba is shipping a LCOS rear-projection television capable of 1080p (costs about $9k). You can read about it here: http://www.bluefi.co.uk/story.php?news=14

Re:1080P

[kperrier]

Searching the Toshiba site for the model number listed in the article (57HLX82) does not produce any results in the product area of the toshiba.com. Doing a google search on it yields a hit on the news page (the press release about the tv) but nothing on a product page.

A real product or vaporware, you decide.

Kent

Re:1080P

[TheCrazyFinn]

Actually there's a hole load of available resolutions, all in p or i modes. 720p and 1080i are simply the best supported ones.

Cool

[mschoolbus]

I wonder if S3 is on the way back again in the market. I am starting to design a media station like system using a projector for my future house. Are there any decent frameworks out there for designing a network capable media center?

More power to them for bringing some more competition into the market (again)...

Re:Cool

[Zathrus]

Go look at AVS Forum and their HTPC forum. Even has a sub-forum for HTPC on Linux.

It's a very, very busy forum though, with a couple hundred threads a day being posted to. But it's the definitive place for HTPC knowledge.

Doom 3?

[AltImage]

It's been stated that Doom 3 won't run at full frame rate on any of today's existing hardware. Does a card like this change that situation? What types of advances in graphics cards are going to be necessary to play Doom 3 at it's fullest potential?

Re:Doom 3?

[ndnet]

I think these will do fine. When was that stated? Probably in the hayday of the GeForce2/3...

Re:Doom 3?

[Zathrus]

It's been stated that Doom 3 won't run at full frame rate on any of today's existing hardware

Reference from Carmack please?

Doom3 is likely to run with full eye candy on an ATI Radeon 9700 (and probably 9500) or a GF Fx (which isn't quite out yet) at 1024x768 with full features enabled and probably anti-aliasing and ansiotropic filtering.

This is based off Carmack stating that it'll run decently on a GF4 at 1024x768, although without all the eye candy at maximum.

Frankly, nobody seriously expects that SiS is going to trump ATI and nVidia yet... they've been too far behind for too long. They may very well eventually come out with a chipset that's as good or better than the current leaders, but they haven't even managed to get within spitting distance with previous efforts -- and the hype around those chipsets was that they'd be better than ATI/nVidia too.

Re:Doom 3?

[evilviper]

Frankly, nobody seriously expects that SiS is going to trump ATI and nVidia yet...

Nope, SiS doesn't stand a chance... but maybe you should be talking about __S3___!!! the company who's hardware this story is about.

BTW, Ford isn't going to trump Mitsubishi... NEC isn't going to trump IBM, etc. I figure, hey, if we're going off-topic anyhow...

If you don't get it, just move along

Re:Doom 3?

[VoiceOfRaisin]

yeah i remember hearing that....... about 3 years ago.
"today" was 3 years agos hardware.
carmack had said that at quakecon. but then said something like "by the time doom3 comes out there will be 2 gigahertz cpus" *queue crowd oohing and ahing*

Re:Doom 3?

[Anonymous Coward]

More textures per pass is all Doom 3 needs... The per-pixel lighting effects all require multiple textures.

GeForce FX supports up to 16 textures per pass, this ought to be more than sufficient to handle the added normal mapping, bump mapping and other operations John Carmack has made public.

On older cards, it could take multiple passes to handle all of these textures. That's where your framerate starts to grind to a halt.

Nothing too exciting here...

[guido1]

Culling a bit out of the article...

--They won't say exactly how many, but the new card will have approx 1/2 the gates of Nvidia's FX.
--It will run at 60% clock (300Mhz) of high-end cards (FX again, as well as ATIs Raedon (sp?).)
--It will use DDR SDRAM.
--It won't be availible until end of Q2. (5 months or so.)

To be faster, you either need: (1) more gates, for more work per cycle. (2) More cycles, for more work per time. Looks like they have neither of these, plus they're not getting ultra-high bandwidth out of their memory... And it won't be availible for months...

With the NVIDIA FX coming out early Feb, it won't capture the high end...

What is the market for this thing?

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[DrFrasierCrane]

I was getting the same impression. It seemed like a lot of, "uh, yeah, we think it'll be this good, and we think we'll have it supported" that sounded like S3's problems discussed at the *beginning* of the article. That said, it would be nice to have another competitor solidly in the market.

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[oliverthered]

Or 3).
Implement better culling &co so that you don't have to draw so much.

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[swordboy]

What do you mean, nothing exciting? Just look at that name DeltaChrome. Can you imagine the successors to this? In five years, we should be up to e.DeltaFLEX-ChromeNUMA FX 2008 Titanium .

I can hardly wait!

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[Jerf]

What is the market for this thing?

Cheap lapops.

Rest assured that it will be better then the current state-of-the-art of low-end S3 laptop chips (talk about oxymoronic...). I have a Via TwisterK with the current S3 chip, and the only regret I have for buying such a low-level laptop is that the 3D performance on this 1 GHz Duron is roughly equivalent to a Voodoo I. (Otherwise I've been happy with it because I didn't buy it for 3D performance, I bought it because even the crappiest laptop on the market today is still a kick-ass portable Linux machine.)

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's WinTel-type thinking. Just cuz you have more logic gates doesn't mean you algorithms will be any better, or faster. True improvements come from detailed engineering analysis of the functions being implemented. I can design crap and have it run at speed in a fast part, or I can take the time and make an efficient design run at speed in a slower speed-grade part. It's all the details so don't count this card out yet. Wait for the benchmark.

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[Vellmont]

Presumably the low to mid end. If it has half the number of gates as the Nvidia FX, and is produced at the same .13 process, you'd expect it take take around half the silicon size. If all goes well that translates into lower costs to produce the chip. Many people simply don't need high-end 3D graphics and aren't willing to pay $200-300 it.

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[Zathrus]

What is the market for this thing?

The same market that puts in GF MX's and ATI 7000's in current systems. There's a lot of people out there that don't need a $200+ video card. Forgoing 3D entirely on a home PC is a bad move though, since you'll certainly end up with displeased users when they can't play some random game they picked up.

Laptops, OEM systems, business class systems, etc. all sell millions of low end video cards yearly. This market is much larger, and potentially much more profitable, than the small high-end gamer/enthusiast market.

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I'm with the others, you don't need to be the best/fastest/most powerful to get sales. Being the best/fastest/most powerful does get more attention and press.

There is still a big market in $100 video cards, which is where most of the lesser brands occupy, and that price point makes it easier to convince computer makers to put their card into a computer.

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[Anonymous Coward]

NV31 and NV34 will arrive in March/April. These will be a cheaper versions of GeforceFX (NV30), NV31 will be aimed to mid-range destop and high-end mobile market while NV34 will be aimed to low-end destop and mid-end mobile market.

I doubt that S3 could compete with this chips in both price and performance.

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[LPetrazickis]

What do you have against EpsilonChrome or ZetaChrome?:)

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[kperrier]

What do you mean, nothing exciting? Just look at that name DeltaChrome. Can you imagine the successors to this? In five years, we should be up to e.DeltaFLEX-ChromeNUMA FX 2008 Titanium .


Yeah, and can you imagine a Beowolf cluster of those?

;)

Kent

Re:Nothing too exciting here...

[ndogg]

All of us here already understand the myths about processors and megahertz, what makes us think that this myth won't hold up with the DeltaChrome? Let's not forget that the clock frequency isn't set in stone, and I've learned that when something like that is so undetermined, original estimates are lower. I don't think it's fair to dissmiss them until they've released their card.

most excellent

[AssFace]

Now if only I could afford an HDTV!

My apartment now is so small that I think if I got a nice plasma screen tv that was 40" or so, it would pretty much take up one whole wall of my place. And considering my futon is only about 5' from the opposing wall - that would make for a real theater like experience.

Now just to wait about a year or two for all the prices to become reasonable and things are going to kick ass.

Re:most excellent

[Anonymous Coward]

do you feel better about yourself? Having expressed to fellow nerds that you are cool because you sleep on a futon .. *yawn* ..

Re:most excellent

[Anonymous Coward]

HDTV!=big screen. A computer monitor is perfectly capable of displaying HDTV resolutions. You do have a computer, don't you?

Re:most excellent

[AssFace]

I'm intrigued... tell me more of this "computer" thing you speak of

Re:most excellent

[Thag]

Samsung has a 27" HDTV monitor you can find on sale for $700.00 at Best Buy. I have one, and like it.

Jon Acheson

Let me get this straight....

[LordYUK]

It doesnt do really do anything more than the current run of cards does (ATI AIW 9700 pro), it does LESS than the upcoming run of cards (GeforceFX), AND its scheduled to come out like, 3-5 months from now, long after the ATI has dropped in price and the GFX has pushed down prices of the Ti4600?? ::yawn:: wake me when there is real news.

Faucet?

[lizrd]

Is it just me or is Delta Chrome a better name for a faucet than for a video card?

Re:Faucet?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh man, I've always had a crush for Fara's Faucet. Oh you mean a faucet? My heart is broken...don't knock on my door, I will not be able to answer after suspending myself so high with a rope...

S3 3D performance and Linux

[oliverthered]

The DRI project is working on acceleration for the S3 chipset at the moment, so you OpenGL performance should increase.

Also, the 2.5 kernel performes soooo much better than the 2.4.19 kernel with performance patches on my crap mobo.

Forgot to mention

[Jerf]

Forgot to mention, yes, I did read the article. And frankly, I have no confidence in this chip as a desktop component, and S3 is once again fooling itself. I think the odds are about 1 that this will end up in cheap laptops, just like the Savage chips only significant showing is in laptops.

(It might end up in cheap crap Via motherboards, but only an idiot buys a desktop motherboard made by Via, no matter how cheap, as I've learned from repeated harsh experience.)

Re:Forgot to mention

[mark_lybarger]

but only an idiot buys a desktop motherboard made by Via, ... as I've learned from repeated harsh experience.)

i feel compelled to point out the obvious...
you eedeeot!
best heard here: http://sounds.wavcentral.com/televis/renstimp/idio t-2.au

Re:Forgot to mention

[Anonymous Coward]

Only an idiot makes such statements about VIA mobos. I have had several and the only time I have had problems is when I use a Soundblaster audio card. Luckily there are several manufacturers of audio cards like Terratec, Hercules, and M-Audio (I'm drooling over their new Revolution card).

Instead of worrying about mobos, someone like you should only know one thing: 1 800 DELL 4 ME.

Re:Forgot to mention

[MamasGun]

I would say that about VIA's chipsets for AMD and Intel processors, but the EPIA platform is a very interesting one for some light-duty applications. Especially now that the EPIA-M, with its MPEG2 decoder onboard, is out. I could see some Chinese company building DVD players as basically EPIA-M PC boxes.

This S3/VIA video circuitry could be an interesting addition to a future EPIA platform motherboard. If you look at this card as a potential gaming card you will probably be disappointed. But in conjunction with EPIA and the kind of things one does with EPIA it might be worthwhile.

Output to an HDTV projector!

[Anonymous Coward]

That's great news.

As long as there is a follow-up post about new HDTV projectors that run for about $200. Otherwise, it doesn't affect me too much... :(

a better deal with soft9700

[Anonymous Coward]

Who cares, deltachrome may be interesting, but it can't top this!

http://www.guru3d.com/rivatuner/

Step 1: Go buy yourself a Radeon 9500 128MB (non-pro only) $150US

Step 2: Apply this patch

Step 3: Watch your benchmarks, you just got a Radeon 9700 pro for $150!!!

Re:a better deal with soft9700

[stratjakt]

You forgot the step where you solder SMD resistors to the card to unlock the rest of the memory bus, and keep your fingers crossed that the extra logic you just enabled wasn't faulty in the first place (which is why it was placed on the 9500 and not the 9700).

Clocking it higher isn't the whole story, it's not a 9700 Pro until you unlock the other half of the memory bus.

It works, but I've heard as many failure stories as I have successes.

Re:S3 3D performance and Linux

[Afrosheen]

X developers have been trying to accelerate 3d in the S3 chipsets for nearly a decade now. DRI might actually produce something, but I doubt we'll see any bleeding turnips anytime soon.

Re:S3 3D performance and Linux

[oliverthered]

Somone on the DRI team has the chipset documentation without having to sign an NDA. So things are looking promising.

What does s3 stand for anyway?

[Afrosheen]

Slow, sucky, and super late?

What's the market?

[dpilot]

Maybe people like me?

The current top-end graphics cards are in the $300 range. The second tier is around half that, and the third tier half again. The real sales on the top-end graphics cards are rather small, and grow as you go down. But having that top-end card helps your lower tiers, because of the assumption that good top-end implies good rest-of-line.

In today's market that's not necessarily true. IMHO both nVidia and ATI short-cut the lower ends with the MX and 9000 lines, respectively. Both of those product lines have cut features from a previous generation, and ramped the clock to regain performance. Also, both product lines will show their age on newer (let's face it, DoomIII) games.

I recently bought a third-tier card - a Radeon 8500LE. It has all the features, a slightly lower clock, and a much lower price. The reasonable competition would have been a GeForce3 Ti200 for a little more. This is also a stopgap card - in a year or so I want to step up and get DX9/OGL2 features when they're available in the second tier. (I know OGL2 is still an unknown.)

The reason to pay attention to the top end is because it presumably brings features down to the bottom end. But both dominant suppliers today have broken that feature chain. So if someone else comes in with the features and performance I want, and linux support through drivers or documentation, I'll buy, even if they don't own the top end.

Re:What's the market?

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

don't hold your breath waiting for 3d support for S3 cards. Savage 2k is in the market for years and all we have are 2d graphics.

PowerVR

[13Echo]

We've all had ViRGE chips in our machines at some time or another. I can't say that I've every really cared for the S3 products. Drivers and tech support have always been poor. The chips have always fought over the bus and lagged down PCI devices such as soundcards. Savage 2000 was disappointing. The drivers and slow 32 bit rendering made it a horrible card to have, even for games based on the aging Quake 3 engine. I sure hope that they can change things in the future. They've always been able to put themselves into the value and OEM markets, especially since they were purchased by VIA. It's an easy way to slap these chips into integrated mobos, as long as they can put out performance that is better than the low-end nForce products.

It's nice to hear about new products from alternative companies. What I am really looking for is a new product based on PowerVR's technology. I've really gotten a lot out of my Kyro II over the last two years, and the drivers have been quite solid under Windows and (now I use) Linux. I think that their series 4 products were canned, after STM anounced that it was selling its graphics business (which licensed PowerVR's series 4 technology). Series 5 was in development, but has had no real press.

My Kyro II experiences have been very good. The card puts out crisp and beautiful graphics, and rendering is fast. Unfortunately, it's time to upgrade for the up and coming games. Products from ATi and nVidia seem to be on my list, but I will probably end up waiting until the next nVidia chip gets released. Competition will drive down the R300 price.

Competition is a good thing, especially if the manufacturers provide Linux drivers. ;)

Re:PowerVR

[Bishop]

I can't say that I've every really cared for the S3 products. Drivers and tech support have always been poor.

Your history is too short. S3 used to make some truely excellent low cost high quality 2d video cards. There were good drivers for both Windows and XFree86. Unfortunately S3 came late to the 3D game. (Everyone other then 3Dfx came late to the 3D game.) To furthure criple S3 the company was bought out and handed around several times by companies more interested in the old S3 technology then createing new and better chipsets. I do agree that just about everything from the Virge on has suffured from poor performance and drivers.

Re:PowerVR

[radish]

Yup - gotta love those Kyro II's. Mine is still going strong, and handles everything I throw at it. Not that I am a major game player, but it was fine with GTA3, Q3 etc.

Re:PowerVR

[13Echo]

Well, yes. There was a time when there were some products from companies such as Number 9, that had S3 chips onboard. Even then, competitive products from Matrox made those things quite less of a value. The S3 products were still impractical for the average home user, and were aimed at being used for graphics work. S3's been around for years, but even at the beginnings of their graphics operations, they've had sub-par products and drivers, aside from some of their early 2D chips.

Re:PowerVR

[sethanon]

I think you may be forgetting about the Stealth 64 range (I had a Diamond Stealth 64) in the mid 90's. When they first came out they were about the best you could get in price/performance for a consumer card.

IIRC the Matrox Millennium came out at either the same time or slightly later and whupped them in terms of performance but it was over twice the price.

S3 not SiS!

[Anonymous Coward]

S3 actually was pretty a decent name way back. I loved my old Stealth VRAM card when it was new.

Re:S3 3D performance and Linux

[Jerf]

Actually, that performance was in Windows with the 3DMax 2001 benchmark; I have little confidence that vast improvements can be made on that number with a driver change, no matter what the OS is. :-(

Competition

[IWantMoreSpamPlease]

Improves the breed...I'm glad s3 is getting back in to video cards, if for no other reason than to ensure the other makers don't slack off.

And let's not forget about the awesome offering from BitBoys!! (humor)

Re:Competition

[MojoMonkey]

Except is S3 going to make any splash in the market? They've always been the bastard childs of the graphics industry. Substandard performance, drivers, etc, etc... It's like the turtle and the hare ... except the turtle has been stapled to the road.

Someone Tell Me...

[LordYUK]

Okay, as far as I see it the video card race works like this: nvidia or ATI releases high end card at 400 bucks or so, and 1-3 mid-low range cards. The competitor follows suit, prices fall about 15-20 bucks every month or so, until the "next card" comes out, then prices plummet, and it all starts over. Sometimes a 3rd party enters (like S3 right now) and offers what is basically crap comparted to whats out, doesnt offer THAT big a price difference, and goes away, If a company REALLY wanted to take the "crown", wouldnt it make sense to release a card as good or better, at a rediculous price point, but still make money? like a 9700 Pro equivalent at 2/3's the price or something? Give me the SAME specs and good driver support, and I dont CARE who makes my card. Note, I have no idea the production costs involved with these cards, this is just an observation... feel free to correct me...

Re:Someone Tell Me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Crap? Kyro 2 wasn't crap. Xabre isn't really crap. Maybe you need to stop letting yourself be brainwashed by nVidia.

Re:Someone Tell Me...

[be-fan]

That's the fun part. For the low end 3D market, around $100 is the sweet spot. For that, you can get a GeForce4 Ti 4200, which is superior to most of the cheapo 3D cards you get. It's fast and has great driver (for Windows and Linux!) to boot. Compare this to a Xabre 400 card, which runs only $30 cheaper, but in many games offers half the performance. Those who are really going to feel that $30 hit can easily save another $10 and buy a GeForce4 MX 440 for $60. It's still faster than the Xabre 400, and even though it lacks pixel shaders, (1) at that price, you're not playing Doom III, (2) The Xabre's pixel shaders are so bad, for all intents and purposes, it doesn't have them.

Re:Someone Tell Me...

[paradesign]

they are obviously not going for the crown, but rather the oem market. theyll clean up house there if they can get it out of the door cheap. plus itll be better than the gf4mx's everyones using.

Remember AlphaChrome?

[nenolod]

They were making a big deal out of Alpha Chrome... it turned out to be vapourware. I have a feeling Delta Chrome will turn out to be the same.

Screw S3, save your money...

[swasson]

[sarcasm] ... and support open source by taking 10% of the money you'd be spending on the card and support the open source project of your choice. [/sarcasm]

Linux Support?

[Erwos]

I'd like to hear if the thing will have decent Linux support. 200 FPS at 1600x1200x32 in Quake3 in Windows means absolutely nothing to me if it can't do 3D acceleration in Linux.

So, two questions:
1. Will we see good 3D-accelerated drivers from S3 or funded by them? Open-source or not is irrelevant to me as long as they work well (ie, on par with nVidia or PowerVR).
2. Will S3 let S3TC be used in DRI drivers?

If the answer to either is no, they can take their chipset and shove it where the sun don't shine.

-Erwos

But...

[Anonymous Coward]

Will they have Linux drivers that'll take advantage of the hardware (3D, etc)?

And where is 1080i?

[gjt]

I was recently scouring HDTV television makers' web sites and noticed that even 1080i is hard to find. Most of the monitors that I saw that claimed to be "full high definition" weren't full high definition. They only showed up to 720p (1280x720), though some showed odd resolutions like 1366x768. (What are the extra lines for?)

For example, take a look at Zenith's plasma monitors.

Zenith wasn't alone. I couldn't find a single plasma or DLP monitor with true 1080i/p resoution. I think I managed to find one LCD with 1080i, but that was about it.

Caveat emptor. Be sure to check the resolution of an HDTV before agreeing to buy it.

Re:And where is 1080i?

[kperrier]

Plasma and DLP are limited in there resolution. A rear projection and a tube based TVs can support 1080i.

Kent

Not really..

[Salden]

I haven't tried going DVI-DVI but using ATI's dongle to convert to component just plain sucks. I was able to use a regular transcoder to do 1920x1080i but static interlaced images are nasty so I went with 960x540p. There are still overscan issues though.

DuoView: I see nothing that my AIW8500DV can't do

[Sarreq Teryx]

DuoView

As it sounds, DeltaChrome supports dual displays via its DuoView technology. But what really separates it from all other graphics architectures is that it natively supports outputting to your HDTV thanks to its Hi-Def HDTV encoder.

This gives S3 quite an edge over the competition: could you imagine outputting straight from your PC or laptop straight to your HDTV? With DeltaChrome, you can! Resolutions of 480p, 720p, 1080i, and 1080p are supported via a component (YPbPr) output, while 480i is supported via standard S-Video/Composite output. DeltaChrome will offer full range RGB to YUV color space conversion with hue, saturation, and contrast adjustment.

I'm sorry I'm pretty sure, if I actually had an HDTV, that I'm currently able to, with my ~1 year old DX8.1 ATi Radeon All-in-Wonder 8500DV, output to an HDTV, using either the DVI-to-component adapter, or, with newer sets, directly by DVI.

Was this meant to be a stunning new feature © , or am I missing something

Details vs. general ideas

[Andy Dodd]

While PAL is different from NTSC, it is not *significantly* different - The resolutions are in general similar.

Re:DuoView: I see nothing that my AIW8500DV can't

[TheAwfulTruth]

Maybe, maybe not. I have an HDTV and had the ATI AIW card and no amount of frequencey tweaking could get HD/1080i out of the card.

HDTVs are not (god knows why) multi-frequency monitors. They require an exact specification or they don't sync at all. Using programs to adjust the various frequencies and polarities of the signals in theory could get you there, but after several days tewaking with all kinds of "help" from the net, I never did get anything above 480p which the TV itself could do with a normal TV signal from the AIW card.

I for one am looking forward to this "plug and play" HDTV out card!

Re: Overscan

[tweakt]

Yes, major overscan issues. Most sets, including mine do at least 5% on all sides. Why? I have no clue. It seems like this was required back in the days when the signal was very noisy or the eletronics were very slow to lock to the sync plus so it kept the "garbage" off screen. But now I dont see any reason for it. Anyways, it'd be wicked cool if there were a driver option to compensate for the 5% overscan. What it would do, basically is, output the normal resolution, but force all screen content to be confined to the visible region. That would be very nice. Without that, it's just not usable. For playing movies, you don't notice too much, but when your taskbar is half off the screen, it kind of sucks.

yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

It all looks good on paper, but like so many other competitors: actual speed == GeForce 3 MX

Drivers Drivers Drivers and Time to market

[aliens]

First S3 has had a worse record for their drivers than ATI. And that's saying something, second we won't see this card for another 5 months. By then you'll have the GF FX and the R350 at the top end. The ATI Radeon 9700 is already a kickass product. Had S3 released deltdachrome now, it might have some chance. Even then it'd need great drivers. Just my thought.s

Re: Overscan

[xswl0931]

Overscan area contains things like close captioning, macrovision protection, timing information, etc... you probably don't want to see this so for backwards compat. we are stuck with overscan.

ATI has filled the midrange market

[MtViewGuy]

Actually, if you want a reasonably priced graphics card that supports DirectX 9.0, get the ATI Radeon 9500 Pro or ATI OEM cards that is the equivalent of Radeon 9500.

The Radeon 9500 Pro (which sells for around US$190 to US$200) not only performs as fast as graphics cards that use the nVidia GeForce4 Ti4600, but also will support DX9 features in hardware. That means games coming out later this year that support DX9 will run quite well on the Radeon 9500 Pro.

Ah,

[Roadmaster]

how things have changed in a few years. S3 is now considered a low-end manufacturer; some years back, they were top-of-the-line, I remember spending over 200 bucks on a S3 Vision968-based card which was the best there was back then. This of course was in the days before 3D acceleration, and this card touted features meant to accelerate video playback.

To S3's credit, my 968-based card with 2 MB VRAM still holds its own against more recent offerings, at least as far as 2D work goes.

You guys are seriously missing something.

[Anonymous Coward]

this card is gonna be released in mid 2003. It will be about as fast as the radeon 9700pro.

does that raise a flag for you or are you gonna skip to the next post now because you have no idea what's going on here like the rest of your slashdotter morons?

r300 has been out for some time. wtf is everyone getting excited about over a card that A. hasn't been released and B. won't be faster than the r300, a card that's gonna be a year old by the time this card is released?

ok, let's pretend it's a good card. it came from S3. does anyone remember what happened to the S3 Savage 4 and Savage 2000? they made these amazing cards (for their time) with incredible features (HW T&L (it was big at the time)) and NEVER support it in the drivers? i say screw S3. they've been outta the game so long they can't possibly have driver service like ATI or Nvidea.

i hate all of you.

Re:You guys are seriously missing something.

[ndnet]

As for S3 not having a chance, I don't agree.

Before the Radeon, ATI was barely hanging on with the 3D Rage Pro series and OEM partnerships (Dell shipped some, I have one).

Yet they came back with a card equal to what was actually ON the market at the time and at a decent cost. They seemed to have improved their drivers and, in short, became a major player.

I'm not saying that this card has any chance of shaking up the market in it's current form, but what could change between now and the release date? What if they up the clock speed, or the memory speed or amount? What if they mention it has Kyro-II style rendering which is VERY efficient? If I had an AGP slot, I wouldn't count it out yet.

Resolution of media?

[MetalOne]

Are any DVDs recorded in any resolutions higher than 480p? Are there movies being broadcast in 720p and if so how are the broadcasters getting the movies in higher resolutions than consumers? What resolution are football games delivered at?

Re:Resolution of media?

[composer777]

Sorry it took so long to respond. No, there aren't any consumer oriented hi-def DVD's out there. You can make your own, but basicly, what that amounts to is encoding the content on your PC, and playing back on your PC. Unfortunately, the industry hasn't agreed on a standard for hi-def DVD's(i.e., whether to use blue laser DVD's or use better encoding, or both), so although the technology is there(at least as far as better encoding is concerned), it will be awhile before you can go to blockbuster and buy a DVD in hi-def, however, you CAN buy hi-def tapes. Currently, if you want to buy stuff that plays in hi-def format, you have to fork out about $900 for JVC's HM-DH3000U, which is a hi-def VCR. I think the tapes hold something like 28 Gigabytes of material, which will last for I think 2-4 hours in hi-def mode. That's the problem with current DVD's and mpeg2, there is no way that you can fit any appreciable amount of hi-def content on the current DVD format IF you are using mpeg2. Using Mpeg4 is one way to work around this. Another way is to increase the storage capacity, which requires a different medium.

As to your question of what broadcasters are doing. This is my best guess from what I have read, so it might not be entirely accurate, but I do know that they aren't getting their hi-def content through DVD. Most of their stuff is stored on tape or some other proprietary medium, such as keeping it on hard disks. With movies, HBO takes the movies and converts it to digital. Or, they take the master digital copy(if the movie producer already has it in digital format), and then optimize it for hi-def showing. With the advent of consumer oriented players such as the JVC unit described above, soon they will be able to ditch these proprietary methods and avoid having to do this work themselves.

ABC delivered football in 720p back when it was doing Monday Night Football in hi-def a couple of years ago. I think CBS is 1080i for everything, and currently they are broadcasting playoffs in HD. Fox uses their own crappy Fox widescreen, which isn't true hi-def. It's broadcast at 480p in 16:9 format. It's still better than interlaced, but not as good as hi-definition.

Full Circle.

[twitter]

Yes, it seems that we may be able to hook our computers up to our TVs again one day.

Re:Full Circle.

[evilviper]

Many of us have been doing just that for several years now. Most ATI cards come with built-in Composite/S-Video outputs.

Good card(maybe) but and the drivers?

[theles]

If S3 had something against their own products, this will be certainly their own actions! I have a Diamond Vipper II(chipset Savage2000) and the lack of drivers is an absurd. To use this card on WinXP I used a tweaked driver that I've found on www.savagenews.com . Now I learned my lesson! Buy video card only from nVidia or ATI that give drivers for almost all plataforms and keep it constantly update.

thanks mr. viper

[Anonymous Coward]

Many of us have been doing just that for several years now. Most ATI cards come with built-in Composite/S-Video outputs.

My timex-sinclair had something similar in 1984.

Re:thanks mr. viper

[evilviper]

That was not the point. Saying we've come full circle implies that we stopped outputing to TVs at some point, and (to come ull circle) have started once again.