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Xbox Linux Cluster
aeiz writes "Adam Cecchetti put together a Linux cluster using 3 modded Xboxes and was quite surprised with the results. He used the Mandrake Linux distro." illumin8 summarizes Cecchetti's conclusion after investigating "the cost-effectiveness (or lack thereof) and trouble involved in setting up a 3 node Linux cluster based on the Microsoft hardware. The end result: A cheaper Walmart PC would perform better at the same task."
After all that, chicks still didn't dig him.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
fp
On a stickaroooooooooooooooooooooo
Quite surprised by the result? Does that mean that Microsoft didn't threaten legal action?
now make a Linux cluster running on a virtual machine under win XP too please.
I want a Nintendo Mariodrake cluster!
-Zelda
Suprised this worked, myself. Possibly the furture of super-cheap supercomputers?
Oh wait.
Basically, this guy modded three XBox's, put on Mandrake, didn't like the minimal compillation tools it came with, fixed it, and is done. He was impressed with the network performance... not because it was so good, but because he thought it had 10Mbps (it has 100). Ding-dong.. hello... anyone home? Read the specs!
This is news why?
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
Stats:
3 XBOXes
Mandrake 9
MPICH
distcc
Quick Overview:
I was walking back from class thinking to myself I haven't done much in the way of parallel computing lately. So I thought it would be a interesting idea to test the usefulness of the XBOX platform as a cluster node, as the XBOX Linux project says they are useful as. At the same time I had heard a lot on various message boards that individuals were using the XBOX as a Linux desktop to check email and browse the web, etc, etc. So, I wrote a grant proposal to Saint Vincent College asking for funds to build a Linux cluster out of XBOXes. I was issued enough funds to purchase 3 units and accompanying hardware for the project.
Parts
After ordering all the neccessary components and a stop to the local Best Buy. I had all the necessary parts to built this cluster.
3 XBOXes
3 Matrix Mod Chips
1 VGA Switch
1 USB Keyboard
1 USB Mouse
1 USB Motherboard Card
Install
My first step was to flash the mod chips, as they came without a BIOS. After some digging on the web it became clear that the only place I was going to find BIOSes were from irc channels, where they were more than happy to hand them out. The programer that came with the Matrix mod chips was easy enough to use. I simply had to choose my BIOS file, and the program wrote and verified it for me.
The alignment of the chips on the board took sometime, however compared to earlier chips that required 29 wires be soldered to the motherboard this was the only viable solution if the XBOX was to be considered as a replacement for a store PC. The next step was to get Linux onto the XBOX. I used the ISO images boot and install from the XBOX Linux projects web site. Most people on the web had luck with cdrws instead of cdrs and mine worked just fine as well.
Installing Mandrake Linux was the next step. The install disk simply wrote the image over the disk and only took about 15 mins to do so. The only problem was that all three units came with different size hard drives. The hard drive units were not clearly marked to their size, and I ended up pulling out my calculator to calculate their disk size.
After swapping disks the Mandrake partition started right up with no problems. I had no trouble using the XBOX as a standard desktop PC after the install. Nor did anything for day to day computing seem missing. Seems if you can get this up and running its fairly easy to use PC after.
Cluster
The clustering of the XBOX units would not go as easily. I wanted to be able to remote admin the XBOXes and the MPICH package needed ssh to pass commands and I was not about to use rsh. After downloading the sshd source from openssh.org, I found my next big missing piece. Gcc was not installed as well. After installing eight rpms for the gcc package I had a C compiler. The version of openssl was outdated for the current version of openssh so that had to be installed before moving on too. It would seem that the Mandrake install was minimal indeed! As even zlib, required by openssl, was not installed. Finally after a few hours of installing and searching I had a node that was ready to install my clustering software on. Distcc which would allow me to cross compile software across nodes was installed. I also installed MPICH as I had experience with it from my other projects. Finally things were ready to go.
Results
The XBOX unit functions well as a desktop computer for general usage, email, web browsing, etc. The total cost of the unit with keyboard, mouse, and parts came to 383.72 dollars. However, it is not as cost effective or as easy as using a general PC obtainable from almost anywhere for the same purpose. The technical merit of soldering the usb to XBOX controller wires as well as installing the mod chip are beyond the technical skills of most. In short if you already have an XBOX and want to tinker/need a computer and have no fear of the possibility of ruining your unit then this is a viable solution. However, as a general replacement to a desktop pc, the XBOX is not nearly as userfriendly or cost effective as a 200 dollar pc from walmart.
As for the XBOXes as a cluster I have to admit that I obtained better results than I had predicted. This was in part due to that the XBOX has a 100 Mbps Ethernet card and I was told they had only a 10 Mpbs card. I recompiled the Linux kernel 2.4.20 on a single node took 48 mins 30 sec. Using distcc the process was cut down to 20 mins. This represented a 2.4 times out of 3.0 speedup. Not to bad for the 3 nodes. My MPICH results were less telling. After nearly 100 runs of the same test programs my results varied between twice as slow across the three nodes and five times as fast as running the same program on a single node.
In conclusion, the XBOX functions well due to the work done by the XBOX Linux project. However the same or greater computing power could be obtained for an equal price, without the complications of modifying the XBOX. This makes the XBOX an unfit solution as a replacement for a personal computer or a cluster node.
it saves me the cost of trying this out.
I know that the PS2 isn't able to do openMosix since it isn't an x86 chip in there - but the xbox is, so I was curious about trying to cluster it that way (over beowulf types).
but I can price out a small system for under the cost of the xbox and mod chips, and that small system is actually faster.
so in the end, the only benefit would be the small size of the xbox.
that and I'm not sure how loud they are - if the xbox gets decent performance and is very quiet (and ideally don't use much power), then that would be a reason to use them over a regular 2000 XP Athlon - but I'm pretty sure the latter would kick the Xbox's ass in terms of speed.
There are some odd things afoot now, in the Villa Straylight.
wait a second, you tried to make a
GAME CONSOLE cluster and do things a GAME CONSOLE is not even supposed to do, and are surprised it doesnt perform as well as a PC? i guess you are surprised too that a 733 mhz celeron doesnt run games at the framerate the xbox does? what kinda BS is that.. pff..
Google Cache
That's all.
-- Is "Sig" copyrighted by www.sig.com?
"Lookie here, Beauford! This here electric can opener, see, I got me three of 'em, and I tinkered with 'em, but damned if a blender don't mix up a nice al-key-holic drink better than three of these dang-gum things!"
It's an X-Box. It's made to play games, not run Seti@Home.
I wrote a grant proposal to Saint Vincent College asking for funds to build a Linux cluster out of XBOXes. I was issued enough funds to purchase 3 units and accompanying hardware for the project.
so, um.... how can i contact this "Saint Vincent College"... i gotta do some... um.. research.
too bad The Neo Project is gone, maybe they could of broke the encryption key just that much faster....
Mike
I thought that an xbox may run pretty well as a PC, but a wal-mart PC would be better? I'm pretty shocked at that considering how technologically 'good' it is for console games.
Nice to see a 'proper' PC <> XBOX comparison mind you.
Imagine a....
*bends head down and walks away*
Understanding is a three-edged sword. -- Kosh Naranek
Whether they actually lose money on every machine or not (and it surely doesn't sound as if marginal cost is greater than the price), they don't want their low margin hardware being snapped up by the thousands by pc-clustering scientists who will never buy a high margin game.
See what I've been reading.
3 XBOXes
3 Matrix Mod Chips
1 VGA Switch
1 USB Keyboard
1 USB Mouse
1 USB Motherboard Card
1 Copy of Halo
1 DVD-RW
2 DVD-RW Media
Really, what would you expect? A cluster's main application is to increase the CPU cycles available for a given program. Raw CPU power is not Xbox's strength.
The Xbox mods should be focused on what makes them useful. No Wal-Mart PC would have Component Video Output or Digital Audio Output at $200. Xbox can be used as a cheap terminal but it will shine as a Media Player that allows you to use your existing content on your existing equipment in the same way a consumer electronics product would.
That's the real difference. A normal PC has many stupid quirks that are useful only when you have unpredictable hardware combinations, i.e. the dozens of volume controls (PCM, MIDI, Master, etc.) and different resolutions. These are not required in a DVD/TV/Stereo setup. And don't get me started on the so far terrible "desktop-on-your-TV" hacks on Video cards.
I'm looking for an Xbox mod that allows me to playback my content stored on ANOTHER computer through the network (the 10GB HDD on the thing would never be enough to store my files), and still be able to play my original, legally owned games in a non-intrusive way. Simplicity and ease-of-use are valued above all else in a console.
Now that would be a mod with a _real world_ purpose.
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
Let's try to head the inevitible troll post off at the pass. It happens every single friggin time an XBox-Linux discussion appears.
Why do XBox Linux? <insert boring list of reasons why a standard PC is better>
Because it's there!
Any more questions?
The price of freedom is eternal litigation.
How can I get one of these grants to sit at home and play?
Well if you happen to have 4 Xbox's for 16 player halo you could always cluster 3 of them together to do setiathome because you probably aren't gonna use all 4 for most other things..
Not to be a troll, but this guy seems to be claiming he knows what he's doing. From his writeup, I very much doubt that. Performance modelling a cluster is FAR more complicated that "this is how long it takes to compile a kernel on one box, and this is how long in parallel." There are all kinds of issues such as MPICH's underlying communication structure (Tree, Linear, Cube, whatever). The fact that he could not get his MPI test program results consistant tells me that he has no idea how to configure it. Furthermore, when is the last time you saw a Linux kernel take 48 minutes to compile, on any Pentium 3 machine? The XBOX is capable of building a kernel far faster than that.. As another reader pointed out, read the specs.
Oh yeah, one final note. I *hate* how everyone always thinks that they were the first one to think of building a Xbox or PS2 cluster. Kudos to this guy for actually coming through, but his scientific reporting skills leave much to be desired.
I see people talking how this is not cost effective, but there's something everyone's missing. Where's all that money invested into? The graphics card. Wasnt there a slashdot story that pumped data into the gfx card as vector equasions and then read the output of the data? And for some reason, I remember a GF4200 putting out a theoritical 1 Tflop.
Perhaps this isnt soo cost uneffective?
I realize that the point of this story is that computing power is cheaper elsewhere, but wouldn't it be ironic if someone built and used a large-node cluster of these and to crack the Micro$oft XBox keys?? Robinson should up his ante for this case.
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
Well, on the whole, fairly uninteresting.
But in case people don't know about it. distcc, the clustering solution he used rocks! It's just a wrapper for gcc, and works on most platforms. We use it here at work on Mac OSX!
http://distcc.samba.org/
super easy to set up too!
Miscro$oft has nothing to worry about on the desktop front.
I guess this is why they dont find any ET... its SETI@Home!
It should be SETI@OuterSpace maybe...
Just my 2 universal trading currency subunits.
...and yet, twice as heavy.
mode parent down. It's a linking game. (everyone who follows the link counts as a point for the person.) And on top of that, The coward was too stupid to make it an actual link.
I do security
In other news Joe Smith was quite surprised to find that a food processor was far more effective at shredding food than a coffee maker was. He was quoted to say, "Even hooking three coffee makers together in a Beowulf cluster didn't make them shred food faster than the food processor. Weird. Maybe 10 coffee makers would do the trick".
Its not dead, read up on it if your going to post about it.
Release coming Feb. 15th
http://www.theneoproject.com
Chicks dig OpenBSD.
Fuck Slashdot
If you're trying to cluster XBox'es, why not use OpenMosix? I think everything about it is cool. The load is distributed automatically. Applications don't have to be specially written. All of the boxes can see each other's filesystem? Maybe there is some downside to using OpenMosix for clustering?
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
Where the hell is this college and how can I apply? They actually provide funding for things like modding X-boxes??? Damn, I wish they had that when I was in University, I could have requested 16 MB of RAM for my 486 so that I could test how additional RAM affects the playability of EA Sport NHL, as well as test the effects of playing too many videos on grades!!!
I think most of us could have told him those conclusions before he ran his tests. An X-Box is a PITA for a node or as a PC. That doesn't mean there is no practical use for Linux on one. With MPLayer and a few other pieces of software, an X-Box would make a nice media device for the living room. It wouldn't look completely out of place in a stereo rack and just basically has a better form factor than minitower PC. It's already equipped with TV out, an IR reciever and proper audio jacks.
As a bonus, throw MAME and few other games on it. True using an X-Box as Linux gaming machine won't satisfy hardcore gamers. It's just fine for simple games like Pac-Man and Madbomber. Kinda like an Atari 2600 with good graphics. That isn't always a bad thing.
- Microsoft
Kidding! Very nicely done, but this is exactly what they want- they want to sell games, not just consoles. Not a conspiracy theory, just an observation.
I have a walmart pc that runs RH8 and it runs my website quite well.
Jonathan
http://mtclimber.net
While he states ~$370 per Xbox, you don't need a keyboard, mouse, and mod chip for every xbox.
With the right modchip and a small bit of sodering you can flash the bios (TSOP) already on the motherboard then remove the modchip to repeat on other Xboxs. After the first xbox + supplies, setting up additional xbox is just going to cost the the xbox and a bit of time (1 hour or less). So each additional xbox should be 199.99 + tax.
Granted, it's still not very effective clustering solution.
mod parent up!!
**
I spent all day wrapping up some fresh salmon in aluminum foil and cooking it on my engine block..
After replacing the first two fish (fell inside the engine) and getting the engine steam cleaned, I realized that it's MUCH cheaper just to put the fish on the grill, or even use OVEN, believe it or not!
WTF!? Yeah, a PC is probably better than a GAME CONSOLE, you moron! This article was a REALLY weak attempt to bash Microsoft.
T
---- It puts the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again. It does this whenever it's told.
Xbox are for kids! Seriously, this is more of a why climb a mountain, because it's there argument, I doubt this is EVER going to be put into a production environment, and as mentioned, it would be cheaper to get equivalent PC hardware and much easier to cluster it. Still you have to admire the dude's determination.
I am guessing he left out that illegal part in his submission to get a grant for the project. I'm supprised a college funded him to do something so stupid and illegal.
It's cool that this fellow managed to hack this Xbox cluster together. But his methods for performance testing it are ridiculous. Beyond the lack of any meaningful benchmarking, hardware tuning, etc. there's a failure to consider why someone might want to stick a bunch of Xbox's together in the first place. Think about it...what is all of the hardware in the Xbox really suppose to support? GRAPHICS, duh. But this "performance evaluation" doesn't try to do anything with the graphics hardware. A more realistic evaluation of the benefits of clustering these would try to take advantage of the graphics processing power of the hardware. I'll guarantee that a $200 Wal-Mart PC would do much worse in parallel, realtime graphics rendering computations.
its only xbox news when they cluster some xboxes together to take control of Bill Gates house..until then ah why should we care?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Does anyone see the irony if the encryption key was broken by a cluster of X-boxes.
Will not be upgrading his ps2 cluster for quite some time.
This guy takes a machine that was designed to be good at graphics and use it in a cluster?
Then he whines about soldering the wires to make USB work? Doesn't he know you can buy them from LikSang?
Or perhaps they could have implemented a grammar checker for you.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
1. xbox custer
2. ????
3. profit
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Now we don't have to imagine a beowolf cluster of these no more .. !
How long does it take a Walmart PC to compile the Linux kernel?
What is the slowest part(s) of the XBox? disk? Video? Network? CPU?
The XBOX unit functions well as a desktop computer for general usage, email, web browsing, etc. The total cost of the unit with keyboard, mouse, and parts came to 383.72 dollars. However, it is not as cost effective or as easy as using a general PC obtainable from almost anywhere for the same purpose. The technical merit of soldering the usb to XBOX controller wires as well as installing the mod chip are beyond the technical skills of most. In short if you already have an XBOX and want to tinker/need a computer and have no fear of the possibility of ruining your unit then this is a viable solution. However, as a general replacement to a desktop pc, the XBOX is not nearly as userfriendly or cost effective as a 200 dollar pc from walmart.
As for the XBOXes as a cluster I have to admit that I obtained better results than I had predicted. This was in part due to that the XBOX has a 100 Mbps Ethernet card and I was told they had only a 10 Mpbs card. I recompiled the Linux kernel 2.4.20 on a single node took 48 mins 30 sec. Using distcc the process was cut down to 20 mins. This represented a 2.4 times out of 3.0 speedup. Not to bad for the 3 nodes.
He could have harnessed the power of the Geforce in his distcc also if he had just wired jumpers between pins 1, 4, 5, 6, 12, 14, 16, & 23 of the Geforce to pins 12, 13, 3, 16, 33, 1, 2, & 9 of the BIOS chip. This has lead to over 16% speed increases in kernel compiles on many LinuXBoxes.
details here and here.
Cheers
It's actually Saint Vincent, in Latrobe Pennsylvania (that's about 30 minutes or so from Pittsburgh); think it's a Catholic college too.
/. user something like this probably doesn't seem too complicated, or maybe even original, but for a middle-aged professor it's something new.
Anyway, you'd be surprised how easy it is to get grants like this at many universities. Sometimes it's not about how great or elaborate a proposal is, but whether or not it seems interesting to faculty. Since you're a
I tried it, and it works... the results are awesome... you just the 3D pipeline with the FPU's on the GeForce, which you don't need for a cluster anyway.
Has anyone done this yet?
Hell, is anyone even RUNNING Linux on PS2's?!
I haven't heard a single thing about it lately....
Does this void my warranty ?! JK ;P Thanks for the tip
(\(-_-)/)
Read My Lips, no new takzes...
What an 0BVIOUS TROLL. COME 0N. Where are THE PsyCHO Moderators WHEN YOU NEED Them. Gimme A BREAK. IS SLASHDOT dying here?!
Mod Yourself down you free(K). We don't need your liberal sensor ship around here. This is DashSlot here. We are a group of self actuated like minded intelligent zombies working to ward seperate yet identical porpoises... get with the C++ Program. (or is it JAVA now or PERL or LISP... what ever happend to the best ever language of LISP that was going to lead us to AI!?!??!?! I WANT MY FLYING CARS.) Have you no Shame my hapless inventors? We wait in Anguished Painful Boredom for a "Bright, New Future" (c)2003 Marco Polo
Great Post. Like a fresh of breath air, or a clear, cold water of drink.
Speaking of which, no XBox clusters for me... I want a Beowulf cluster of me's, so that I can figure out WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT.
AFAIK this is the correct number of RPM's for GCC or to get a functional copy of gcc on a machine.... why does it take so many rpm's?
I am no programmer but i guess i would classify myself as a power user (not even sysadmin). Why does everythign have to be so damn complicated in Linux?
is it an elitist thing?
I have a customer that's running his mail server off one of those. You can't beat $200 for a low traffic machine.
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
But now The Neo Project is going to disclose the Xbox signing key if it is found.
Will I retire or break 10K?
should be "NOT going to disclose the key" karma suicide
Will I retire or break 10K?
OF Course... You're reading it right now.... Trippin Daisy
I am not reading it wirght wepoihwer asdf
oinasdfkjn;jkasdf Now.
PTias This is the END.
RRBR
If you read Slashdot, you would go braindead from all the stupidity on it, and you are not brain dead, so you are obviously NOT reading anything on Slashdot.
post the link so we can see how well it runs
-smead
If his conclusions are: "the same or greater computing power could be obtained for an equal price, without the complications of modifying the XBOX" then has anyone tried the reverse - modifying a cheap Walmart PC to work as an Xbox?
Semper ubi sub ubi
If not, it would become more interesting to use as a desktop PC (less noise is good). I suppose most cheap PCs are noisy as hell.
I must say that the Xbox is a remarkably crap choice for a clustering platform. There are two things that the Xbox really is astonishingly good at. The first is graphics, and the second is sound (the sound chip on that mofo is perhaps the most underrated part of the console).
Repeat after me:
It doesn't have a fast CPU because it doesn't need one
It doesn't have a fast CPU because it doesn't need one
It doesn't have a fast CPU because it doesn't need one
It doesn't have a fast CPU because it doesn't need one
It doesn't have a fast CPU because it doesn't need one
It doesn't have a fast CPU because it doesn't need one
It doesn't have a fast CPU because it doesn't need one
I could have told you for free that 3 x (cost of Xbox) worth of PC will number crunch faster.
Oh dear, this post started out trying to be informative, but has quickly descended into a "crap story" stab.
Perhaps it was best I used my trolling account after all ;)
This article proves that the people buying Xboxes to be used as PCs, are idiots.
If you believe you are hurting Microsoft by doing so, you are an even bigger idiot.
I think the psych grads at Clark are already doing research on this subject. I hear they're naming the project "Goddard," in the spirit of the never-ending rivalry with WPI to claim him as their own.
Has anybody noticed lately that you cannot find the $199 PC with no OS or with Linux loaded on www.wal-mart.com anymore -- You could order one before Christmas for that price -- but I've not been able to find any for that price on their site since then at all...
wow, thanks for the tip! and suck my ass.
I don't know about his XBOX's, but his sister is a hottie!!!!
g
http://www.shadowflux.com/pics/stuff/SisterX.jp
I've noticed that most of the comments are not thorough and most haven't read the whole article. I believe the experiment is more along the lines of bored and does not want to pay for something to do so I'll have some one else pay for it. And Microsoft bashing, where? Seriously come on guys.
Hee hee! Go Daniel! :-)
Yeah, informative, seeing as it's the most important part of the article, but the link is buried at the bottom.
--
You know, if Jesus comes back to Earth, I bet the last
thing he'll want to see again is another cross.
which options did he have/not have that you did/didn't? modules compiled? as modules or built-in? etc.
without this data it is meaningless to compare your compile times to his. the only really good bet is that the options were the same compiling as a node as they were as a cluster on the xboxes.
with 64MB RAM and the possibility of the GUI's left running, sounds about right to me.
Well, I fell like I have to remind you that XBox is basically full of gaming hardware...it's not done for cluster-things.
:)
This reminds me of the time I put 3 coffee-machines together to see what it did : good coffee, but really bad foating-point calculations
____
nico
Nico-Live