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First Mandrake 9.1 Review Out
icantblvitsnotbutter writes "With Mandrake Linux 9.1 right around the corner, it's OSNews first out of the gates with a review of this desktop-oriented distro's latest release. The review is actually pretty bland, skimming the surface to linger on some of Eugenia's pet peeves. Having used 9.1 in a production environment since beta 3, I can say that the improvements to the installation and the signature Mandrake tools are much-appreciated. Don't forget that Mandrake Club members get their own set of mirrors, as well as being eligible for extras like the voting process that selected the packages for the 9.1 release." Update: 03/25 18:29 GMT by T : anyweb also points out a review of Red Hat Linux 9 on the same site, writing "an informative article -- well I had to say that, I wrote it ;-)"
Of course, I prefer FreeBSD ... but that might just be me.
... they've overcome the fugliness that the X11 protocol seems to force upon UNIX.
Last time I tried Mandrake was many years ago, and it was actually pretty decent, though I didn't use it for much. Hopefully with this new release
They are in bankruptcy court. Bankrupt != out of business.
I bet Eugenia just donloaded the latest Cooker release and reviewed that! :)
They are going through the French equivalent of bankruptcy IIRC. They are restructuring themselves and ridding themselves of unprofitable ventures. I can't remember if they have emerged from bankruptcy or not, but development on Mandrake Linux never really stopped.
Why, o why must the sky fall when I've learned to fly?
Redhat announced tday it would skip the 9.0 release and go right to 9.1
he's referencing this article. I think it's funny and ontopic...
Mandrake was one of the first distros I used to learn *nix. I hope they can focus just on the distro and once again start making dough. I just wished LFS was around when I first jumped into the *nix world. Peace.
How can a review be out for an unreleased version?
Who would consider putting a beta product into a production environment?
a freshly polished desktop for a while. Right now I've got blue curve action on my Redhat8 desktop but it doesn't seem as cool as my linux desktops of long ago. Sure things work nicely but eye-candy is yummy.
I'm suprised that with a RedHat 9 release less than a month away we haven't seen one of those reviewed.
The other option is SuSE, and from what I hear, has a nicely tuned desktop as well.
--------
Free your mind.
I take it that the poster hasn't read any of Eugenia's reviews before. My friend, the review isn't about Mandrake 9.1, it's about EUGENIA! I've never read an objective review of ANYTHING on OSnews... unless you count Eugenia herself, in which case...
Seriously, Mandrake is probably just trying to play the number game, now that Redhat is upgrading to Linux 9 too.
(I've got karma to burn... -1 troll, bring it on... although I'm kinda hoping for a +5 informative...)
Condemnant quod non intellegunt.
How good is this distro going to be with say... an nforce mobo?
no they didn't go bankrupt, they went in liquidation!
it's not the same thing.
in liquidation, the company is protected 'temporarily' from bankrupt for some time in order to find cash to keep its head above the water.
currently, Mandrake runs somewhat well and should keep off from liquidation soon.
Does the reveiwer know that those are the names of kernel modules, not C functions? Or did they just want to sound "hip" and put parentheses where they don't belong to show off what they've learned after perusing some 13 year old's online C tutorial for five minutes.
Seriously, what the fuck. Are they trying to sound intelligent, like they're all down with C and Unix and shit? Were they trying to refer to man pages, but failed? There is no need for those parentheses!
thanks
localroger
A common mistake people make is that they call it "Linux version x.x", however, this isn't accruate. The Linux(kernel) that it uses is 2.4, and the version number is what the distributor gives to it. Unlike Microsoft, there are many distributors of Linux, all of them using their own numbering schemes, so it's wrong to call it Linux 9.0, as it is called Mandrake Linux 9.0 Glad you like it though.
however, it's doubtful that X will be dropped.
Which is a shame, because the more I use linux, the less I like X.
"Times have not become more violent. They have just become more televised."
-Marilyn Manson
Installation
.doc files that one word processor can read, but the other can't, so I need to have all three installed to check out which one does each time). Mozilla 1.3 and Gaim 0.59.8 come pre-installed along with a large number of other applications, including mySQL, PostgreSQL, Apache, Samba, a large number of 2D/3D games, XFree86 4.3, XMMS, Xine, Quanta, BlueFish 0.9 etc. In the third CD I found "closed" applications included, like Java, Opera, RealPlay 8, AcroRead and more. Java applets work perfectly on Mozilla, but they would load and then not run on the distro's main browser, Konqueror (yes, Java was activated on Konq's prefs). As for Opera 6.12, it would crash on every page that it had java in it.
The installation has been completely revamped. It looks good and its interface is cleaner with fewer steps required by the user (however, the power is still there if you need it, hidden under some 'advanced' buttons on in the 'Summary' screen). I also liked the little 4-option menu asking you how to proceed with the installation regarding partitions, I found it intuitive, clean and better than the competition's. The only things the user needs to do is pick the language, keyboard, mouse, hard drive/partition and the package family and fire away the package installation. After the packages are installed, the user is asked to add a new user and choose the root password. Before the rebooting there is a summary screen, very similar to the one found in SuSE's installation where the user there can do some more advanced configuration (e.g. configure the ethernet card, printer, sound card and monitor) or leave it as-is (autodetect) and reboot the machine to enjoy Mandrake 9.1. I don't have major complaints about the installation procedure, except maybe a single bug I encountered: the installation would pick the audigy() driver for my first generation SBLive! instead of the emu10k() driver, and it would not turn on ALSA on boot by default. I installed Mandrake 9.1 twice and both times the same problem happened, I had no sound at all, until I turned on ALSA and picked the emu10k() driver manually (older versions of Mandrake didn't have problem with this card).
Using the System
Mandrake's kind of slow to boot as it loads a large number of services by default, but that's configurable via Mandrake's control center. KDE 3.1.0 is the main desktop environment, as always. But this time, we get a Mandrake with a... twist. The default widget theme and window manager theme is now original and applies to both Gnome and KDE (in the same way Red Hat did with BlueCurve). The new theme set is called "Galaxy" and it is indeed very cute, especially its widget set. While I still personally like better the BlueCurve window manager theme for its clearly defined buttons (something that Galaxy lacks and can be a problem to users who need more accessibility), Mandrake's widget-set theme is probably the best found today on any Linux. Detailed, clean, with soft on-mouse-over effects that don't distract. Additionally, new icons made their appearance in this release. I do feel that MandrakeSoft has put a real effort in this release in both the usability and looks of their product.
The "What to Do->" menu is not there anymore, but the annoying "Terminals" menu in the root Kmenu which lists 5-6 different... terminals is still there (that's obsolete and geeky, in my humble opinion). KOffice, OpenOffice 1.02 and Gnumeric are also there, but there is no AbiWord (sometimes I get
Using the System II, Conclusion
It was a positive surprise to see Gnome 'taken care of' by MandrakeSoft, as now its default setup is not the Gnome default, but a panel that resembles KDE's (and the other way around of course). The menus are the same as in KDE, and MandrakeSoft has included a utility to edit the menus of Gnome, KDE and WindowMaker. Enlightenment, IceWM and Blackbox also come with Mandrake Linux 9.1 (I would like to see a stable version of XFCE 4.x included in the next Mandrake as well).
The Mandrake Contr
I'm not trolling. Its a genuine question. Flamebait would be more appropriate ;-)
He didn't write any of it. Anyone could have done it. I encourage you people with mod points to REFRAIN from modding parent up. That's free karma. We can't allow that, can we?
I replied in the wrong place. I'm having a good day here :-(
SuSE may be a more powerful implementation but it's installer is sadly not quite as flexible if your drive has a non-standard partitioning scheme. Mandrake installer has had no problems, at least since I've been trying it (8.0, 8.1, 8.2, 9.0)
I was downloading this at 1.3MB/sec in the UK soon as it hit the front page on slashdot it dropped to 30KB/sec
Oh well
On their website there is now a link to all the 9.1 features, it's on http://www.mandrakelinux.com/en/9.1/features/
The best of all with this new release, in my opinion, is that the level of quality is very high. I couldn't find any bug yet - Mandrake improved much in the debuging area as well!
Great to see such a great product - it's really _the_ event in the Linux world...
I would have no qualms about upgrading my Parent's computer to this distro, except for one thing: CD writing. They are not particularly technical, and would probably have trouble using X-CD-Roast. Is there a really user-friendly CDR program for Linux?
"You've got Linux!" (tm) (sm) (r) (c) (patent pending)
The honest truth is that a trip to her homepage, or any other of her reviews, will indicate that this is indeed the case. As a matter of fact, I was specifically looking for a BeOS reference in this Mandrake review. I was quite surprised when I didn't find one.
Mandrake has been the ONLY distribution that will run on my wife's IBM Netvista Flatpanel PC. The others distros wouldnt even boot up the Install screen. I tried Debian, but spent maybe 30 minutes n finding the right monitor, but no joy. Nothing else can detect that stupid monitor.
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
How is that redundant? Does a mod need a link to www.dictionary.com or www.dict.org?
So, you made a quick, shallow review of MDK 9.1 ? WOW ! psst : I had access to BETA 9.1 MDK !!
Or the FIRSY REVEIW OF THE 9.1 COOKER OF
Soon we'll see 0-DAY WAREZ LINKS AVAILABLE mandrake 9.1 GPL ISOs downloadable from OSNews !!
does it bother anyone that a reviewer is actually running this antiquated and obsolete piece of junk?
SuSE8.0? You're kidding, right?
I bought the Pro-Pack. Yup, I dropped $80 bucks (US) on it only to find out that when I went to update it, it totally b0rked itself. Nice. Oh, I had to DL the new RPM manually, and install that. OK, not that big a deal, I was used to RPM hell at that point. Oh, well there were 20 or so dependencies for that dependency. Err... well, 30 or so to get those dependencies of the dependencies installed cleanly. Oh, well, I still had to hack at some config files. Well, but that really wasn't enough since I still had to re-update somethings. I'd love to watch "Joe Six-Pack (tm)" do that.
I switched to Gentoo.
Perhaps SuSE 8.1 is better. I honestly don't know, and to be quite frank, I don't intend on finding out. Portage is FAR superior to YAST.
This is just my opinion.
I'm not a prophet or a stone-age man,
I'm just a mortal with potential of a super man.
Seriously. I hadn't heard of GothMolly till about 1 minute ago, but I value there opinion more than Eugenia's.
> Club members get their own set of mirrors.
I am interested in how do I get to those? I am a club member, and all they want is a click-through agreement that says A) I plan to join or b) I am a member. Then it sends them to the same list of mirrors available to everyone else, with no logins (beyond anymouse), and no mirrors served by mandrake.
So, you made a quick, shallow review of MDK 9.1 ? WOW ! psst : I had access to BETA 9.1 MDK !!
Or the FIRSY REVEIW OF THE 9.1 COOKER OF (insert last urpmi --auto-select date)
Soon we'll see 0-DAY WAREZ LINKS AVAILABLE mandrake 9.1 GPL ISOs downloadable from OSNews !!
Quote the artilce:
...but the annoying "Terminals" menu in the root Kmenu which lists 5-6 different... terminals is still there (that's obsolete and geeky, in my humble opinion).
Now, GNU/Linux(dammit) isn't mainstream yet, but I'm sure we have find a happy medium between a geeky set up and what we'd set up for grandma. Could this be an option in future releases? I know you can configure mandrake to death, but how about some pre-configured set ups?
What, me Tweet?
Have you noticed that there's also a "review" of RH9 on the front page of OSnews?
Code, Hardware, stuff like that.
I can't say anything about side buttons, but I got my Logitech WheelMouse to work without imwheel. In fact, I fought with my .imwheelrc for quite some time to get the scroll wheel working, then one day I just happened to look in the Mandrake control center, and found I could get the scroll wheel working there. The control is quite as fine grained as I could get with imwheel, but the one step configuration was nice...
Whereof we cannot speak, thereof we must be silent. --Ludwig Wittgenstein
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I even get annoyed sometimes when it takes me a couple extra tens of seconds to find an app due to different menu layouts.
You might want to start taking anger management classes...
Also, lay off the computers for a while, they're a known stress inducers. Try to redirect your hacking energies into cooking or fish or something...
We just don't need any more frustrated angry linux geeks...
Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
8.2 is a great release, installed well etc....
But things were setup badly. It takes at least a couple of months of use, compiling lots of stuff from source and manually configuring to realise that the distribution was broken not the software.
Things were slow, kde crashed alot, no kamera KIO slave, kduz kept screwing up my printer.
I now use gentoo, which has been far less problematic than Mandrake.
(things are quick, KDE(and everything else) is stable, and no problems with anything)
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
scripsit tyrann98:
Just use Debian, it's the universal OS! ;)
Seriously, though, the commercial distros have to have something that distinguishes their offering from the rest if they're going to get noticed. I don't care for that, myself, but I'm not sure you can convince them to give up what it is that they've cooked up to make themselves stand out.
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
"In the third CD I found "closed" applications included, like Java, Opera, RealPlay 8, AcroRead and more. Java applets work perfectly on Mozilla...."
:^)
something i've noticed lately is a couple of distros are including java by default, it was on the last knoppix cd, and i got the 1.4.1 blackdown version from unstable last time i apt-upgraded debian woody (so maybe its gonna be in sid). I think i read somewhere redhat are going to default include suns java in the upcoming 9 (but perhaps not in the free personal edition)...
anyway my question is what has changed? It used to be that suns java wasn't distributed with linux because suns licensing restrictions forbode it. Is this the sactioned open source blackdown project version (with presumably looser distribution liscence) or are sun turning a blind eye these days?
frankly i'm surprised theres enough demand for java on linux for it to be included in these bandwidth constrained iso downloads.
the only time i use java is to play my favourite motorcycle game applet
plus: whats up with making KDE the default desktop
i can get Jwigits to work in Konqueror with alised italic fonts because i am the master of configuring desktops
Before adopting WHATWG, read the moonlight.NET EULA [http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx]
You use betas in your production environment and we're supposed to listen to you? :)
Are you kidding? SuSE's latest release has to be the most thrown-together piece of trash I've ever used. They'll never be getting my money again. At least SOMEONE out there is taking the time to do things right (three public betas and two RCs).
I hadn't heard of GothMolly till about 1 minute ago, but I value there opinion more than Eugenia's.
"Anonymous Coward" seems to have solid opinions, too!
How can I add him to my "friends" list?
Just because I doubt myself does not mean I find your position compelling.
All my friends and family use Windozs 2000. If Linux is only at 9 it has to do a Slackware double time and jump up a 1000 versions or so.
I'm currently running Mandrake 9.0 as the server for my LTSP thin clients, and a peeve I have at the moment is that KDE's "artsd" sound server wasn't compiled to enable output to the "nas" sound server running on my thin clients.
NAS running on the clients should play sounds from the remote applications that are running on the server.
Does anyone know if this has changed in 9.1?
- Brian.
Having myself gone through every Mandrake version since 7.0 I can appreciate this. However, I think you may find that ultimately, it would be better in the long run to plan for upgradability.
/, /usr and /var every upgrade. Put all my personal stuff in /home and /usr/local and copy every file I modify into /usr/local right after I do it. i.e. if I hack up /etc/sysconfig/... or /etc/ppp/... I copy it and save it away, I can then easily figure out what I did later and re-apply changes as required. This only applies to manual changes I make with vi, not to things that I configure with tools.
....Paul
I think that several upgrades using a tool like you mention, no matter how well designed, would still leave a bunch of OS lint lying about.
I personally format
It usually only takes a few hours post-install to get back to everything humming the way it was.
Of course, this assumes that you have enough disk space to create all these partitions in the first place...
F U NE X N M? Son: "Dad... How do you spell 'hourly'?" Dad: "0 * * * *"
When I friend of mine looked at the gnometoaster interface, he said "Ah, yeah -- that looks just like the [CWindows D burning program] interface."
...
Brackets there, because I can't remember the one he named, and it was one I'd never used. Since I have seen Nero's interface, I don't think it was that
the point is, GnomeToaster is a nice application, and I think pretty friendly.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
This is an idiotic feature request, no wonder they have no implemented it.
You should have already removed unwanted packages months before a upgrade. Ever hear of rpm -e ?
Is it possible to install Mandrake over the network, bootstrapping it with a floppy then downloading the packages from an ftp or http site like Debian can do? I looked on the Mandrake site but all I see are CD images. The laptop I want to try Mandrake on has a busted CD drive.
Also, doing a floppy-based network install (if possible), how good is Mandrake at autodetecting and autoconfiguring hardware? My biggest problem with Debian was that I had to configure video, audio, network, PCMCIA, etc. all by hand. I still haven't gotten audio to work properly with KDE.
Who knows maybe RedHat could win a UCOSA award for it's new version!! Being the most popular distro, I would think they had a chance!
Not to be a troll, but slackware doesn't care what monitor you use to install. That's one of the benefits of having a non-gui install.
I switched back when RH6 wouldn't play nice with my video card.
To me Eugenia is just another user, and we know users have requests, needs and wants. unfortunately in the GNU world we forgot to ask the users what they want. you know as much as I hate the "Next, Next, Done" installation wizard it seems that users like it. and they don't like the, ./configure, make, make install. try explaining what a kernel is and how stable it is, to the people who call help desk and ask "what's a right click".
In the open source development, usually we either "reverse Engineer" other apps from M$ or apple or we do what we, "the developers", think the user wants. why? becuz we don't have the budget. Do you see my point? so atleast the little tips that people write in their articles (even if it is to their benefit and not for the slashdotters) take it. there might be some good points about usability.
I get sleepy just flaming it.
In some ways, Linux systems are much more alike than different. They have the same applications, same config files, but sadly different interfaces (which matter a lot to most consumers). Maybe Mandrake or other distros could bundle or work on great gaming or Windows support or maybe even closed-source CD-writing utilities (most suck right now compared to Windows programs) such as DirectCD support or seamless CD-RW support. Other things that are functional deficiencies in Linux applications include Microsoft Office replacement, DVD players (commercial quality interface), TV card support (nothing compares to Premiere or even ATI's MMC), etc... There are many areas where programming resources could be spent and overlap in the interface hurts Linux and hurts their pocketbook.
scripsit borgdows:
I know bugger-all about French corporate law, but as the terms are used in the Anglo world, it's rather the opposite. Bankruptcy is a protected status that can help a firm avoid liquidation. If you liquidate, the company doesn't exist any more.
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
Errrrr.......this article is about Mandrake 9.1, in case you hadn't noticed.
So if you're going to title your comment "I still think SuSE is better", then you're misleading people, if what you actually meant is "I still think SuSE is better than the previous release of Mandrake".
Sure we can get rid of her, STOP READING OSNEWS. Without the page hits, their ad revenue drops, and they Go Away. Shrug. Refuse to buy (by reading it) their product. Vote with your 'wallet' (and mouse button).
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
You think 30 kBps is slow?!? My modem is a screamer at 4 kBps and is nearly immune to the Slashdot effect.
Whatever the release, Mandrake Linux is still Mandrake Linux. It doesn't change anything. Mandrake is still, and yet will remain for kids. Wanna be a man? Use slackware instead. ;)
It's easy. Foe everyone with an account and then give AC a +5 bonus. Browsing becomes real surreal.
Just curious, based on previous experience I haven't even bothered to look at the ftp mirrors yet.
...and therefore, it must be better. Heck, it was definitely better than X10. And who even heard of having an X12, much less as "12" on a volume control!
".....and now we can't get rid of her"
I don't agree with much of what she says, but you don't have to read all her reviews, if you don't like them. No-ones forcing you to read them.
Forget about the reviews and just sync your Mandrake box with the ton of urpmi sources out there. Feel the power of urpm* :-D
p hp
Urpmi howto:
http://www.urpmi.org/en/index.html
The urpmi sources:
http://plf.zarb.org/~nanardon/urpmiweb.
The MandrakeClub rpms repository:
http://rpms.mandrakeclub.com/
Enjoy tons of packages from an excellent distro.
Everything we do echoes in eternity...
No, that was an idiotic reply.
Bad handling of lack of disk space is either an oversight or laziness of the programmer. That kind of behavior should never be considered correct. Especially in Mandrake, which is supposed to be user friendly.
Besides, removing unwanted packages is not so easy. Suppose the user had KMail and Mutt installed, and was using only mutt. S/he might have still left KMail there expecting that maybe the upgrade will add the features s/he needs.
Actually, a number of reviews on beta 9.1 releases have been available at http://www.distrowatch.com for a while. There you can follow the making of the distribution through all alphas and betas.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Check the mandrake website!
Mandrake's problem has been that it does not show clear difference from Redhat. Mandrake has more packages, more enjoyable toy stuffs, and some delicate French flavor. But these are not attractive enough for users to adopt Mandrake rather than to use Redhat. It may be somewhat late but I hope Mandrake can establish itself as a *desktop* Linux distribution, differntiating it from Redhat. That's the way they can overcome their current financial unstability.
:)
However, nobody's still sure of any kinds of business model on Linux desktop distribution. Would Dell adopt Linux desktop sometime in near future? HP? Gateway? Wal-Mart?
Sorry... but I'm boycotting all things French these days. Even linux. Hello Redhat.
With Mandrake Linux 9.1 right around the corner
/. effect hasn't kicked in yet since I'm maxing out my ADSL download (64KB/s).
9.1 "final" is available right now (checkout the mirror list).
The
Unfortunatly, it comes with MySQL 4.0.11, KDE 3.1... when MySQL 4.0.12 (production release) and KDE 3.1.1... just came out.
I'll change my sig when I have the time...
Mandrake was the first distro I ran, and I got no end of shit for that from some hardcore linux people. That stigma seems to have moderated. I have tried Mandrake versions 7.1, 7.2, 8.0, and I might futz around with 9.1. The thing is that I see RedHat as being around for the long haul, and I am not so sure about Mandrake. I'm using RedHat in production servers as I write this, but I don't think I'd be comfortable doing the same with Mandrake.
To some extent, I realize that I am falling victim to "everyone goes where everyone is" thinking rather than looking at underlying technical issues, but it really sucks when a vendor that you rely on for critical stuff goes belly-up on you. I am not trying to flame Mandrake -- I have used and I like their stuff. I am just concerned about their finances and whether they will be there for me in five or ten years.
GF.
Lots of petrified grits
Seriously, Mandrake is probably just trying to play the number game, now that Redhat is upgrading to Linux 9 too.
:) at the end of the sentence. Mandrake 9.0 came out last fall. This is 9.1. Not like Mandrake jumped to OSY or anything. ;)
Really seriously? Or did I miss the
It looks like the user interface from Easy CD creator. I believe they have a sourceforge site.
Now now, calm down my precious Voodoo 3 3500 with TV In/Out. He didn't really mean those nasty things he said. I know that one day you will run Neverwinter Nights correctly.
I only look human.
My mother is a halfling and my dad is an ogre, so that makes me an Ogreling
Hold the phone, I thought CmdrTaco was a guy!
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I did the exact same thing. Wasn't 8.0 the one that shipped with the buggy kernel? YaST's online update module just quits. No errors, nothing logged, just *piff!*
Oh, and the http server list in the online update module seems to contain servers that don't have the correct files or are generally flaky.
I switched to Gentoo as well and am happy to be out of RPM hell.
Eugenia is the reviewer
link and report her article.
Your just a bucket worm critics who think that by giving only 3 line of critic of her review your worth the space you take on the hard drive.
-----
You have the right of free speech , you dont have the right to free writing get your right to bear gun and go do us a favor and go end your life with it
So easy to use, no wonder it's 9.1!
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I thought they get like 6 months to show some profitability and then they are off the hook. Shouldn't be too hard. Just dump activities that aren't bringing in a profit and soon you have a profitable company (they were profitable until the American management screwed things up).
Btw, I just purchased a manual from mandrakestore, and THEY HAVE CHANGED. I got a confirmation e-mail when I purchased and another e-mail later to let me know that it had shipped, estimating the approximate time it would take to arrive.
If you have had trouble with the store in the past, I strongly suggest that you give it another try, if for no other reason but to experience the fruits of your own complaints.
Cheers.
Sdelat' Ameriku velikoy Snova!
she is getting better about it.
she's put up a lot of linux stuff on osnews...she ain't no dummy!
Is it any wonder that they are loosing money? I want to try their OS, but I don't have a CD-Burner at the moment (my old one died and I haven't gotten around to getting a new one), so I decided to do the decenting thing and order the software. So I go to the sire and find out you can't order it. Here I was credit card in hand and they tell me I can only have it for free. Good way to loose money.
Am I the only one who thinks that they would make signifigantly more money if they didn't offer ISO's to the whole world for free untill I a couple of weeks after it becomes available to buy,
you obviously haven't been a victim of emerge/ebuild hell. gentoo is a great idea that needs a little maturity (read: robust package management).
;) ), but so does portage. the fact is that all these other systems have more testing behind thier binary packages which makes them more stable and more useable. these other systems also have more testing/engineering behind them to make them more robust. mainly problems arrise from these systems when users go to install packages outside of the officially released and supported packages.
wanna get the latest version of kde? well, sorry you're going to need the latest version of xfree (kde doesn't really have much hooks at all in xfree let alone having 3.1.1 needing a uber-modern version of xfree. xfree 4.3 on the other hand has BUSTED fonts in gentoo).
emerge is nice and fun. it's still a toy until it gets extremely more robust management. a user should be able to "lock" certain config files, while leaving others for the system to handle. better yet, the package management system should know if i've changed a config file, other wise it can handle it.
YAST/rpm/apt-get may have their issues (ok deb users will claim that apt doesn't have issues
untill i can easily get my printer/webcam/scanner/video acceleration/audio/etc working nicely under gentoo, it's time to find something stable. i said that a few months back and tried RH 8.0. at the time that was worse than the gentoo that i had (at least i could print from RH). so finally, i gave up and installed win98 so i could use my devices when i wasn't surfing the net.
Hundreds of users can't be wrong! Sign up now and get 2050 hours* free!
* Free hours only apply in the first month. During a full moon. By people named Frank.The main advantages of SuSE over Mandrake (in my eyes) are the full-featured ncurses based YaST and the more affordable DVD based format. Granted, Mandrake offers the ProSuite CD/DVD combo for $70 but I can get the same setup and software for $50 from SuSE. Don't get me wrong, there's still some things to dislike about SuSE, like the particularly crappy package manager (anybody from SuSE listening?) but until Mandrake knocks $20 off their DVD offering and puts out a FULL (not the limited version in 9.0) terminal/ncurses/newt based port of drakconf, I can't see a compelling reason to switch to Mandrake from SuSE.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
On a side note, does anybody know how, in Suse, to allow a normal user to bring up / take down a network interface as can be done with Redhat/Mandrake?
mandrake
March 25th, 2003 - Mandrake Linux 9.1 (Bamboo) is available! - We are very proud to bring you this exceptional release of Mandrake Linux. It's beautiful, fast, more powerful than ever. We hope you're going to love it as much as we loved to build it. A press release about this new release is available here. You can discover all Mandrake 9.1 features and what it looks like on this page, download it here. Don't delay to pre-order your pack, be among the first to receive a full Mandrake 9.1 box! Subscribe to the club and get many benefits such as an extended list of FTP mirrors and rebates on 9.1 pre-orders!
-beer
It means financial restructuring
A Good Troll is better than a Bad Human.
Yep, the choice is yours as long as RHN continues to support whatever release you're using :>) That factor alone was what converted my personal distro of choice to Debian, and I'm not looking back.
"Having used 9.1 in a production environment since beta 3"
Ummm... Mandrake in a production environment is bad enough, but a BETA? Isn't that like pulling your pants down, holding your ankles while in the middle of a stampeed of horses?
Specifically right here. The infamous Trollaxor is on Eugenia's gAim.
That's the equivalent of "If it compiled, it must be good code."
The spell checker and grammar checker are never an excuse for releasing articles with errors!
Yes, I realize he put a smiley at the end, but I've seen this kind of attitude all too often. If there are errors, it is always the fault of the author and not the spell checker!
(I'm sure someone will point out some error I made in this comment, but I'm not shirking responsibility! All errors are the fault of the author and not Office, OpenOffice, Slashcode or anything else!)
Never confuse feeling with thinking.
A "chick geek" is generally an uglier woman who believes she can get the attention that nature makes her crave from desperate beta males. She is not far wrong either, for a straight male is naturally more receptive to a woman.
Of course, those truly interested in technology rather than the mating dance should ignore women in technology at all costs. They do not serve to improve the science.
I wish I had a +1 Funny to throw your way. So true, at least in the case of her "reviews".
/. story with "Mandrake's juuust about to come out with 9.1" and get it accepted. With the hook, it was ready hours before the official announcement. Too bad DistroWatch (whose beta reviews have been great) wasn't the one given this review opportunity.
Still, I couldn't just submit a
someone always has to bring up something about gentoo and their portage system
ed2k://|file|Mandrake91-cd1-inst.i586.iso|68216422 4|7422d9374a1bd9187254de638f47c7d3|8 |9bc5687f06ecf26e1f767623dc8f6421|0 0|82530029d63b3624020fcc40aa9ad625|
ed2k://|file|Mandrake91-cd2-ext.i586.iso|68127948
ed2k://|file|Mandrake91-cd3-i18n.i586.iso|6815744
Salva
It's easier than ever to send pictures with Linux 9.0. Duh... no wonder it's #1.
No really. They do.
This is from a guy who cant afford $20 for a PCI sound card, and you are going to listen to him>
Does anyone know if this fixes the bug in 9.0 that screwed up internet connection sharing?
I used 9.0 for a few days before removing it and going back to 8 because of this...basically if you turned on connection sharing it automatically turned on the firewall, and wouldn't allow other machines on your network to get through. (Yes I know it's fixable the hard way, but I'm lazy and want to use the nice happy mandrake config menus).
Gentoo is currently 1.4 rc3. Maybe when they hit final they'll rename it to 10, so everyone knows who the highes version linux is.
Ooh look at me! I'm using Linux X!
This is my sig. The post is over.
YAST is TERRIBLE.
Try manually changing a config sometime, only to have YAST overwrite it...YAST keeps its own database of configuration stuff as opposed to working directly on the config files, as other distributions do.
They included K3b in mandrake 9.1.
It's about as easy as it gets.
to find out which config files have changed, and make any manual updates still required.
Often, if you've edited a package's config file(s), an RPM upgrade will often save the new config file(s) as "configfile.rpmnew" instead of over-writing your changes. However, the old config file isn't always 100% compatible with the new package, so you often need to upgrade by hand (or install the new config file in place of the old one, and repeat the configuration changes you made to the original package).
Is it just me, or are distros releasing new versions every 15 minutes? Christ.. we'll have Mandrake 240.33b competing with RedHat 4^36 next month, i'm sure.
What site does a better job in terms of covering Operating System related News? This site doesn't have nearly as many articles. ENews is vastly more surface oriented. Most other sites only focus on a particular OS, and are terrible in terms of comparison.
.... Biases of the reviews come through quickly. Cars are probably the easiest things to compare in that they are:
Comparing products is very difficult. How many good comparisons do you see of: Oracle, SQL Server, DB2 vs. Postgres
a) Fairly static
b) Very similar to one another
c) Functionality is understood by almost everyone
d) Expensive enough that people are willing to do a detailed comparison
Yet people still need "test drive" because they can't get good information.
I think the quality of article on OSNews, especially Eugena's stuff is very good. Personally I don't care about UI nearly as much as she does, but at least she does detailed comparative work in a broad area of interest which is far more than I can say for virtually every other internet site.
Funny enough I don't like the UI on her board but...
Since Mandrake 9.0, rpmdrake has a feature to graphically merge .rpmnew and .rpmsave files; it solves most of the problem by proposing you to keep the old file or the new one (if you want to manually update it, you need to do that separately).
.rpmnew and .rpmsave files, run "rpmdrake --merge-all-rpmnew".
If you upgrade a package with rpmdrake, it will automatically propose this to you. If, at any point after upgrades with urpmi or rpm or whatever, you want to examine existing
gc
You obviously came from RedHat and discovered that SuSE doesn't work the way you are expected from your experience. This doesn't make it "TERRIBLE".
I have to say that you are not alone, I had the same problem with SuSE (6.0).
But, as I am told, this has changed. In the past, SuSE kept all parameters in a single rc file. SuSE now keeps (since 8.0) like RedHat everything in a seperate config file.
"Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
ustr: Managed string API with ave. 44% overhead over strdup(), for 0-20B
Actaully, Beos broke her heart and drained all ,of course, she is entitled
the idealism out of her.
She is a total pragmatist now.
Her favourite os and the one she recommends is
Windows XP.
Linux is 3-4 steps if not years behind Windows
in her opinion, which
to.
Her preferences are well known,but she is more than willing to defend them.
Honestly, I'd be embarrased to point someone to this review. There's just no credibility. Look at some of the screenshots in the Red Hat review - the reviewer was running as root. The reviewers of both didn't test it out on what anyone would call a wide variety of hardware, yet they bash the installer. Letting us know that the included kernel is '2.4.20-r6' just shows the author's ignorance - the r6 is an internal Red Hat number and has nothing to do with any other distribution, and tells nothing about the patches the kernel might have. Indeed, looking at the Red Hat reviewer's site - he says on the front page he has just started 'dabbling' with Red Hat 8.
Why do people continue to patronize this site?
Yeah, Liquidation being whereby all your 'liquid' assets are sold off. Bankruptcy being the stage before all that.
Funny. I just looked at the desktop environment comparison and it picked Windows XP as the top with BeOS second. I thought she was a BeOS Fan Girl?
Eugenia seemed to take the fall of BeOS very hard.
Seriously tho, OSNews has really degenerated into an even bigger troll hangout than slashdot. These days it's not really worth looking at. I keep looking tho, hoping for a glimpse of intelligent discussion, but I'm not finding any.
That should be GNU/Linux
What an interesting set of comments by all. However, common sense still must prevail. I have used all the Mac OSes since 7, and Windows since 2 (except ME). I've never used Linux, but that does not disqualify me from making comment. Question: Why on earth would you want to buy an OS that has to emulate 90% of the software you use? That is what OS 10.1.5 has done, and I hate the thing. for most of us living in the real world, we want all the functionality of what we have on our Windows machines without all the "fiddling" to make it work. No, Windows is not perfect. No, neither is Mac. Point is, why swap one set of headaches for a complete new set? As "what is the point?" has mentioned already, there really is no point in dabbling in this unless you are a serious computer nerd, and then only if you have nothing better to do with your life...
Yast actually works relatively well in 8.1. I haven't seen the overwrite problem in this release. However, the TERRIBLE (tm) package manager has no qualms about overwriting my newer custom RPMs with older ones, doesn't bother respecting any taboo settings I setup, has a conflict resolution mechanism that can't take no for an answer, and lastly, you can't even get a friggen list of what you have already installed. I only hope they listened to the bitches and moans about this and FIXED IT in 8.2 because it's certainly no better in their latest patch build. Other than the package manager, I disagree with you. I think Yast is quite well done, it makes mundane admin tasks quick and easy, it also works quite well as an installer, and best of all, the ncurses version has all the features of the GUI version.
Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws-Plato
Depending on what you select at startup, you only get 3. I have three. rxvt, xterm, and konsole. You only get 2 if you're not running kde. ALL THE CHOICES DEPEND ONLY ON WHAT YOU INSTALL. And sometimes, having quick access to terminals is nice, even for a CLI-aware grandma.
Who is this Anonymous Coward character, how does he post so much, and why is he always such a whore?
Honestly.
That was, quite possibly, one of the most mind-numbing articles I've ever read in my life. It was bland -- not telling me anything that was even remotely interesting -- and it was very, very poorly written. If you're going to criticize RedHat for not including programs or features in the OS, please, at least, do a little research as to why they're doing this and tell people how they can do the same.
Can we please keep from posting schlock on this site? I've been reading Slashdot for a long time now, and articles like these are starting to dissuade me.
-- K
I don't think redhat wants some award from a yahoo geocities-based page. haha
Ohyes, that sums up Eugenia to a "T". And, heaven forbid you should offer up criticism of any of her reviews. The lass has a very thin skin.
OS News is still a good site for, well, OS news, but the reviews (most pointedly Eugenia's) are all pretty much a throw-away and not to be taken seriously.
emerge is nice and fun. it's still a toy until it gets extremely more robust management. a user should be able to "lock" certain config files, while leaving others for the system to handle. better yet, the package management system should know if i've changed a config file, other wise it can handle it.
._config_.cfg file instead of automatically clobbering your existing configuration files. You have to manually remove your old config file (or just delete the new one). So I'm not sure what you're talking about.
It already does. It creates a
but so does portage. the fact is that all these other systems have more testing behind thier binary packages which makes them more stable and more useable. these other systems also have more testing/engineering behind them to make them more robust. mainly problems arrise from these systems when users go to install packages outside of the officially released and supported packages.
I've never had a problem with portage - ever. I've been using it for at least a year now. My friend is tried to install Suse, and now Mandrake, but is becoming increasingly frustrated with the terrible package management. More mature my ass. The RPM system is NOT mature at all. Windows Installer is mature.
The RPM systems today are a joke. That's why I moved to Gentoo. The compiling everything makes you feel all fuzzy inside, but I really like it because the package management is superior to anything else out there. Never has portage given me problems; me and my friends all had/have piles upon piles of problems with RPM package managers. Dependencies, not recognizing already installed packages, randomly breaking things, etc. If that's mature, I want no part of it. I'll stick with my full functional immature portage system.
untill i can easily get my printer/webcam/scanner/video acceleration/audio/etc working nicely under gentoo
That's fine, because as it stands, its a power users machine, not one for your grandma. And that's why I use it. I'm a power user who wants total control over their system (without making everything a pain in the ass).
There were many that took the BeOS fall very hard. I am one of them.
There are many others, Scott Hacker, who wrote the BeOS Bible, is another. As are many developers and fans.
The OS is (was?) great, the company screwed it up (shades of IBM perhaps?)
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
I always figured the irrational hatred toward Eugenia resulted from the fact that she isn't afraid to point out all the goofy UI problems and less-than-perfect features of Linux distros. Devotees of that particular distribution get uppity and defensive and make excuses while criticizing her spelling or something, when she's actually right. I guess people are too used to reading Linux reviews from Linux sites, instead of Linux reviews from a site that's not immediately pro-anything-running-Linux.
By the way, she's criticized BeOS before; for instance, 5's poor font rendering.
What are you, crazy?! Obviously you have pretty low standards if you think someone who wants to be taken seriously when writing in English for an English-speaking audience should have to spell correctly and use proper grammar! Get with the 21st century, already! ;)
Not really. I think the dislike of her can be more attributed to the fact that she writes critical reviews of OSes, yet doesn't expect to have her reviews critiqued. She has a stunningly thin skin for someone engaged in such a job. Her reaction is to lash out, as opposed to engaging in reasonable discussion. As a result, she comes across as petulant and unprofessional, and therefore it's hard to take her reviews very seriously.
Yeah, Mandrake 9.1 is out. But when will the orders ship? If I order 9.1 from MandrakeStore.com now, will it show up tomorrow? Next week? End of April? Or will it be the utter bollocks that 9.0 was and be THREE MONTHS from now!
From the Red Hat 9 review: "Wine seems to have taken a nose dive"
If you check on www.winehq.com in their news section you will find the answer under issues 155 and 156. The new pthread implementation in the 2.5 kernel branch is to blame. Red Hat backported the changes.
Apparently WINE will be broken on many of the coming distributions. There are a few workarounds that work for some and not others but until the WINE development team resolves the problem, the WINE project is stuck not working out of the box so to speak.
Yes, the rpmdrake feature works very well, too. However, you don't get this benefit (to my knowledge) when updating a whole distribution.
It would be a great idea if this could be put in as part of the upgrade process (or at least prompt the user to check the files in question).
Thanks for the tip about the "--merge-all-rpmnew" parameter. Mandrake's got a load of handy little features like this, but they need better documenting somehow - too many of these features are only known by a tiny proportion of Mandrake's users.
If it's a Slashdotter's review it can be boiled down to this: "It's Microsoft. It sucks."
Honestly, it's people like you who bash down ANYTHING that isn't open source ("ATI released Linux drivers? BAH! It's not free! It's not as if I'm programming drivers for X or anything, but... ARGH! STUPID COMMUNIST RODENTS!"). Let her have an opinion. She defends it far better than most people who endlessly blab about how horrible Microsoft is.
From the article: My only gripe with OpenOffice is it has an annoying delay while loading up a module even on a very fast and current computer. Opening Microsoft Word in Windows XP on the same system is instantaneous compared to OpenOffice Writer. I guess some more work needs to be done in that department as this was the same in Red Hat 8.0, so hopefully in time this can improve. Once it's loaded, it's fine, but if you are in a hurry to read something in OpenOffice, then the delay can be tiresome.
This is something that a lot of people see, but they don't understand that when you install MS Office on MS Windows, most of the DLLs for Office get loaded by the operating system when it boots. The result? When you open MS Office, most of it is already loaded, so it starts really quickly.
The down-side is that you do have all those DLLs loaded, so if you're not running Office, you still use the memory for those DLLs. Ever wonder why Windows requires so much RAM? That's one big reason.
StarOffice and OpenOffice on Windows have the same problem as under Linux. They don't dump their DLLs into the Windows dir. So when you start StarOffice / OpenOffice on Windows, it has to load everything.
About the only way you could improve load time for OpenOffice on Linux is to do what StarOffice / OpenOffice does on Windows : let you start up a "launch icon" that loads 99% of the application into memory. Under Windows, you can do this by having OpenOffice load a quickstart icon into your system tray.
-jh
Bollocks, and double bollocks. If you run unstable (which despite the name is actually very stable 99% of the time) you get most of the latest software, and no depenedency hell. And you just cannot beat stable for a server, which doesn't need the latest whizz bang Desktop.
;)
;)
Yes, apt exists for rpm, but its not just that which make Debian so appealing. But I really have to laugh when I see all these people complaining about how upgrading their systems screws things up. I've been updating (thats update, not this wipe and reinstall nonsense) Debian constantly for 2 years and I've rarely had a problem with it.
Hows things btw Nev? Didn't know you posted on here
P.S. C sucks, C++ rules!
You know, a review about all the desktop stuff is fine and all, but I care about server production environments.
Where can one find a list of all the changes in RH 9? I've checked their site (albeit quickly) and all I can find is how to sign up for RHN and get it before everyone else. I don't care about getting it before everyone else, I want the damn changelog to find out if I want it at all.
Sorry, rant over.
--J(K) DOS is like Unix in exactly the same way that a pinto is like an aircraft carrier.
>>Hold the phone, I thought CmdrTaco was a guy!
;-)
Most guys do.
I've experiments to run, there is research to be done on the people who are still alive.
I am a Debian user, but very much like the YaST2 / SaX install features of SuSE 8.1. It is GREAT for n00b users, and easier to install than MS Windows. It even detected correctly my oldball fixed frequency monitor. Previously, I had to locate the specific frequencies and bang them into the XFConfig-4 file. It installs a common-sense desktop setup with everything you need. It even auto sets-up a dual boot with WinXP for you (although the default option is to delete XP). On a Toshiba laptop, the battery features don't work because the kernel source is neutered for decent ACPI features, and every other boot the mouse is redetected as new h/w. But they have done a great job so far!
.deb package system, and also let you 'apt-get dist-upgrade' to the next version..... it'd be the best dist out there.
Now, if SuSE switched to apt-get (not the cheap rpm imitation version), and the
Hold the phone, I thought CmdrTaco was a guy!
So did CmdrTaco's fiance, but she has since come to know better.
She actually often has many valid points - its just that if you're just a little bit geeky (like me) you think she's complaining about trivial things. She also has problems laying out her complaints in a objective-sounding way.
It's interesting to note that the OSNews article does not mention the major technical change in Redhat 9 (which merits the new major revision number imho). Redhat 9 includes NPTL, a new threading system which will improve some server and desktop tasks. The article on CNET has more info.
A common mistake people make is that they call it "MandrakeLinux version x.x", however, this isn't accruate. The Linux(kernel) that it uses is 2.4, but the bulk of the operating system is the GNU utilities. Give credit where credit is due.
Did you even bother to read the article? Or did you just read the slashdot summary and take that as gospel?
Because the thing is, if you had bothered to read the article, you'd have found that her review is really very favorable to Mandrake 9.1. Here's some direct quotes from her conclusion:
"With this release I see a very serious and very respectable effort from MandrakeSoft to create a better Mandrake Linux. It is just obvious that this is not 'just another release', it really feels that it had extra care ...."
"I would urge everyone to download Mandrake 9.1 and give it a go when it is released. It is a worthy distribution and especially this version is a sincere effort from MandrakeSoft to create something better and competitive ...."
And there's heaps more praise in the article. She also discusses hardware detection and the speed and usability of the system (two of your other uninformed criticisms, as I recall) and she doesn't (AFAICS) try to start a flame war over window managers.
Yes, she does point out some problems with the distro. But do you seriously expect a reviewer to give unconditional praise to a product?? Gee, I mean, I could just read what Mandrake's web site says about 9.1 if I wanted that! What's wrong with some constructive criticism?
(and FWIW, I've used Mandrake as my main distro since 2000 (I also play around with crux linux when I don't want bloat :) and have generally found it to be the best of the major distros)
I can install Mandrake w/o a GUI. But there is NO way my wife is going to run Linux from the command line :)
If you're not a Liberal in your 20's, then you have no heart.If you're still a Liberal in your 30's you have no brain.
I must say I was really like how anti aliasing looks in Mandrake. Looks better than WinXP (cleartype). Just need some font tweak tools like RedHat. (Unless I just didnt seem them in Mandrake)
/. effect. (Thank god I have unlimited transfers!)
Now, lets see if my hosting service crumbles with the
The "What to do" menu is still there. It's actually called "-> What to do?" for some bizarre reason. Bye the way, does anyone know how to get OpenOffice to not use absolutely ugly fonts?
The problem is that the "critiques" of her reviews don't usually address the issues in the article but instead attack her spelling, or the fact that she ran a BeOS site, etc.
When I installed Mandrake 8.2 I couldn't find the "Install Everything" button like there is on the RedHat installer. Yes, the extra disk space taken up is worth less than my time going back and installing the extra packages that didn't get installed the first time.
Is there an "Install Everything" button in 9.1?
ISA may suck, but there are a helluva lot of ISA sound cards (including some *current* high-end digital cards) and SCSI HAs out there yet. IMO, dropping autodetect of ISA is not such a great move. Cripes, *my* Mandrake box has ISA SCSI and sound cards in it (and it's a P3).
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
Actually, BeOS was third. MacOSX was second.
So no, she is not a BeOS fan girl. Anymore.
DUD3!!!!
Let me guess. Her first complaint was that the distro failed to properly set up her 4096 x 3072 240 Mhz monitor out of the box?
But factually, she is entirely correct. Someone needs to point out these things.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Trust me, you're not the only one who feels that way.
/. has to post every single poorly written OSNews "article".
Not sure why
FreeBSD has a more mature setup and is the pattern Gentoo looked at when they began. Gentoo isn't there yet but is heading that direction with some steam. It has some rough edges yet but is to be expected at this early stage.
Portage does have some versioning issues that can burn you but that can be worked around with a little care. The same can be said for Mandrake and urpmi. Mandrake shot themselves in the foot many times with bleeding edge stuff like non-standard compilers and other such nonsense over the years. I think they have finally figured out how to be leading without the bleeding too much. Urpmi is a great tool once it is configured. The problem is that most people don't configure it properly.
Debian is definitely more matured than either. I still think FreeBSD beats all of them for keeping a system up to date.
Which current high-end cards?
ISA slows the rest of the system down and is very limiting in performance.
My last couple motherboards don't even have ISA slots (and they are P4/Athlon XP).
puts out a FULL (not the limited version in 9.0) terminal/ncurses/newt based port of drakconf
You could fire up the http draktools on loopback and use lynx/links for terminal configuring. You can get more for free from Mandrake than Suse so the money thing could be subjective too.
linux has been _MUCH_ easier to install than windows for a while now
ustr: Managed string API with ave. 44% overhead over strdup(), for 0-20B
Bad handling of lack of disk space is either an oversight or laziness of the programmer.
You're an idiot, ever heard of df -h? In mear milliseconds you can see all disc usage on all partitions.
Mandrake is user-friendly. Idiot friendly is what you want I believe. Just keep using windoze and being dumb.
Suppose the user had KMail and Mutt installed
One word here: Evolution
Dear Sir,
I am firmly opposed to the spread of microchips either to the home or
to the office, We have more than enough of them foisted upon us in public
places. They are a disgusting Americanism, and can only result in the farmers
being forced to grow smaller potatoes, which in turn will cause massive un-
employment in the already severely depressed agricultural industry.
Yours faithfully,
Capt. Quinton D'Arcy, J.P.
Sevenoaks
-- Letters To The Editor, The Times of London
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