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Chess Championship: Humans vs. Computer

An anonymous reader writes "X-bit labs has posted very interesting editorial called "Chess Championship: Humans vs. Computer". During the last 10 years computers penetrated into various spheres of human life. In this article guys try to find out how well computers can play chess and if it would be correct to say that artificial intelligence is superior to human mind. Interesting read."

223 comments

  1. Chessmaster 8000 always beats me as is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    at least Chessmaster can't post on ./ how it beat me 5 times in a row.

    1. Re:Chessmaster 8000 always beats me as is... by Chessmaster+8000 · · Score: 5, Funny

      at least Chessmaster can't post on ./ how it beat me 5 times in a row.

      Can't I?

      I look forward to beating you five more times tomorrow night.

    2. Re:Chessmaster 8000 always beats me as is... by QQ2 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Allright this is the last straw
      I've been beaten by this thing all through my life and I always took comfort that there was atleast one thing that I could achieve before the Chessmaster

      getting a +5 funny at slashdot

      Nooooooooooo damn you, now my failure is complete
      /me runs out to grab large sword and commit harikiri

    3. Re:Chessmaster 8000 always beats me as is... by mog · · Score: 1

      What's even funnier than that is that at the time of posting this, Chessmaster has +5 and you have +4. Will its terror never cease?

  2. Interesting, but... by TopShelf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't know if chess playing really qualifies as AI. The game gets broken down numerically such that the computer's job is just to crunch through the myriad possible moves and select the best one. All the intelligence goes into the algorithm that rates various positions, and the calculation scheme by which possibilities are evaluated, which are the human inputs. It just sounds like too narrowly focused a task to be considered AI.

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    1. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And what do the best chess players do?

    2. Re:Interesting, but... by DavidpFitz · · Score: 5, Interesting
      I agree with you. After studying AI as an undergrad for 4 years, I came to the conclusion that carrying out well defined tasks is not a subject matter for AI. Chess rules are extremely well defined, and as such all that is being carried out is a search - this is not AI.

      Learning to understand English is altogether different -- Language has a very complex set of very loosely defined rules which change over time, sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly. Understanding English is very much an AI task.

      The problem is knowedge, and how it should be represented -- with Chess you just need a big calculator and present as much of the game (projected) as possible. There is no such way to do this with language... a much more complex representation with much more hueristic knowledge is required, and this is where AI starts coming in. Natural language processing is a very tricky field, one which I won't even pretend I understand, and in my opinion nobody quite does... Chomsky probably coming closest, but then again I'd disagree with him on many points!!

      D.

    3. Re:Interesting, but... by beders · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The best chess players look for patterns, but through experience and insight can discard millions of possible moves and concentrate on the most effective and bring about a squence that forces their oppenent in a direction they don't want to go. Saying that I have no idea how to get a computer to do the same :)

    4. Re:Interesting, but... by ergonal · · Score: 5, Funny

      Good chess players just create_suspense(x) before making a move, where x is the amount of suspense, and generally increases as the game develops. When this function finishes they make a random move based on the "ooh" and "aah"'s they receive when they touch different pieces. If there's no crowd they use the expression on their opponents face in place of this decision-making process. It's a lot like winning the lottery. These chess players aren't really THAT smart.

    5. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Language has a very complex set of very loosely defined rules

      Shhhhh. Don't let the objectivists hear you say that.

      On the problem of knowledge, representation should be easy considering the obvious fact that All of man's knowledge and all of his concepts have a hierarchical structure.

    6. Re:Interesting, but... by DavidpFitz · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Sure -- rational people understand that a person's has a hierarchical structure where a complex concept depend on a number of simple concepts. Without the lower, more simple concepts, the higher concepts have no meaning since they can't be understood.

      So, knowledge is hierarchial only insofar that simple addition and subtraction pave the way for more complex algebra... knowing algebra without knowing addition and subtraction would give algebra no meaning.

      However, this doesn't account for leaps of thought where entire planes of thinking are bypassed... and nor does it account for mad people (always a tricky one in AI) , especially mad geniuses!

    7. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Can't say I agree with that.

      Addition and subtraction derive their meaning (in a strict mathematical sense, which when talking about pure knowledge, why not use a strictly mathematical sense?) from algebra. I mean, their meanings change depending on what algebra you are using.

      However, this doesn't account for leaps of thought where entire planes of thinking are bypassed... and nor does it account for mad people (always a tricky one in AI) , especially mad geniuses!

      Exactly!

      If knowledge were hierarchical, one would be able to present said hierarchy. Since you can't, it's not.

    8. Re:Interesting, but... by Afrosheen · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Mad geniuses, IMHO, are just like the 'AI computers' that play chess. They tend to be very deficient at everyday tasks (hygiene, social skills, excercise, etc.) yet extremely proficient at a specific task. Once you strip away everything that makes you human, you can focus on one thing and become superhuman.

      There are, of course, anomalies; people that are genii but continue to lead somewhat normal lives, but these people are rare. True genius comes at a cost, and that cost is high for most.

    9. Re:Interesting, but... by DavidpFitz · · Score: 2, Interesting
      If knowledge were hierarchical, one would be able to present said hierarchy. Since you can't, it's not.

      You are indeed correct, I can't :-)
      I would argue that there is a hierarchical base for knowledge, it just breaks off the further up the tree you get. Incremental learning must take place before independant thought can take place, so in that sense there is certainly a degree of hierarchy, I think.
    10. Re:Interesting, but... by Bluelive · · Score: 1

      Searching problems have allways been at the core of classical AI, game playing, like chess is a large part of the field. I think language is really way to far away for AI at the moments anyways, theres more to it than rules, theres also what we say, why and what it means.

    11. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thank you for a most pleasant exchange of ideas. I've now had 2 such experiences here. You've got a new fan in your zoo. I've been posting anonymously because I think I moderated in this discussion.

      As far as a hierarchal base for knowledge goes, maybe it seems like there is a hierarchy because we're looking for a hierarchy, or any well organized way, to pigeon hole the nature of knowledge.

    12. Re:Interesting, but... by DavidpFitz · · Score: 1
      I thank you for a most pleasant exchange of ideas. I've now had 2 such experiences here. You've got a new fan in your zoo. I've been posting anonymously because I think I moderated in this discussion.
      Why, thank you. It was as good for me as it was for you :-)
      As far as a hierarchal base for knowledge goes, maybe it seems like there is a hierarchy because we're looking for a hierarchy, or any well organized way, to pigeon hole the nature of knowledge.
      Sounds very much like human nature -- trying to fit something not understood into the realm of what is understood, producing something that looks kind of right. Very interesting. Perhaps like those ink blot pictures, you see what you are looking for.

      Thought provoking, indeed!

    13. Re:Interesting, but... by dr_tube · · Score: 1

      I think it's funny that humans judge what consitutes artificial intelligence, when humans themselves only asymptotically achieve consciousness. It's kind of like a bunch of extremely complicated mechanical computers emulating consciousness, judging whether something achieves AI.
      Automatons programmed to think they are not programmed. ;)

    14. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      'mad geniuses'?

      who are they? most mad people are just people who are mad.

      'mad geniuses' is a group of people invented by literature because it's a literary trope that if you're extremely good at something, you've made a pact with the 'devil' to achieve it. In this case the 'devil' is madness, other times it can be the real devil. or many other things can stand for the devil, such as social isolation.

      real life doesn't follow the same structures. some people are just nice normal people who are geniuses.

      lucky fuckers.

    15. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "'mad geniuses' is a group of people invented by literature because it's a literary trope that if you're extremely good at something, you've made a pact with the 'devil' to achieve it. In this case the 'devil' is madness, other times it can be the real devil. or many other things can stand for the devil, such as social isolation."

      I've never heard the devil mentioned in connection with genius.I think you worry about god too much.

      `mad geniuses` is an idea based on the fact that people who are geniuses often restrict their life to single mindedly pursuing that one thing to the exclusion of relationships, family life, looking after their appearance etc.

    16. Re:Interesting, but... by The+Night+Watchman · · Score: 1

      These chess players aren't really THAT smart.

      Yeah, especially because all they really are are just midgets crammed inside mechanical men. They don't impress me none.

      Personally, I'll go with the Moxy Fruvous explanation of who's smarter. Sure, Deep Blue beat Kasparov, but if the building they were playing in ever caught fire, Kasparov would be the only one of the two that was smart enough to get the hell out.

      ---

      --
      "Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part that wonders what the part that isn't thinking isn't thinking of"-TMBG
    17. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ps. will you marry me?

    18. Re:Interesting, but... by The+Original+Yama · · Score: 1
      Take a look at this page. Here's an excerpt that relates to your comment:
      The main problem of chess programming is the very large number of continuations involved. In an average position there are about 40 legal moves. If you consider every reply to each move you have 40 x 40 = 1600 positions. This means that after two ply (half-moves), which is considered a single move in chess 1600 different positions can arise. After two moves it is 2.5 million positions, after three moves 4.1 billion. The average game lasts 40 moves. The number of potential positions is in the order of 10128 (10 to the power of 128), which is vastly larger that the number of atoms in the known universe (a pitiful 1080 [10 to the power of 80]).

      It is clear that no computer or any other machine will solve the game by looking at all possible continuations. But human beings are also imperfect players. It is only a question of what depth of search is required for a machine to match human strategic skill.

    19. Re:Interesting, but... by danila · · Score: 1

      Well, when computers will learn to understand English, that would not be considered an AI task anymore, would it? :)

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    20. Re:Interesting, but... by DavidpFitz · · Score: 1
      Well, when computers will learn to understand English, that would not be considered an AI task anymore, would it? :)
      It most certianly would. Do you think that just once you've learned how to do something, that it suddenly becomes a trivial task? It doesn't... it stays non-trivial but you are able to do it.
    21. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      `mad geniuses` is an idea based on the fact that people who are geniuses often restrict their life to single mindedly pursuing that one thing to the exclusion of relationships, family life, looking after their appearance etc.
      Yes, and this idea is a fictional literary trope, not a thing that happens in real life.
    22. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't mean the real devil.
      I just meant it's a literary device that appeals, and gets repeated, from Faustus to the myth that Einstein was 'scared of hairdressers' or a million other such nonsenses.
      it resonates with our wishes and expectations more than with the real world.

    23. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Personally, I'll go with the Moxy Fruvous explanation of who's smarter. Sure, Deep Blue beat Kasparov, but if the building they were playing in ever caught fire, Kasparov would be the only one of the two that was smart enough to get the hell out.
      I'd say it was the other way around - Deep Blue was the only one smart enough to bring along its own halide system...
    24. Re:Interesting, but... by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      I've never heard the devil mentioned in connection with genius.I think you worry about god too much.

      He was speaking metaphorically. Perhaps you worry about god too much.

    25. Re:Interesting, but... by kisrael · · Score: 1

      Hofstedder (but spelled correctly) of "Godel Escher Bach" fame thinks "slipperiness" is the crucial thing really missing from AI, our abilities to utilize loose analogies and metaphors, which lets us utilize our past experience and knowledge in novel situations.

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    26. Re:Interesting, but... by TheRevenant · · Score: 1

      Actually, I suspect this isn't so difficult. Many of the great inventions & insights of history were 'simply' the result of people applying insights from one field to another. The printing press being modelled on a coin press being modelled on a grape press, for example.

      As a result to have a more creative/mad AI, 'all' you would have to do, is have it throw random ideas from unrelated fields at each other so often, and discard impossible results.

      Not easy, but not that big a step up from an 'unimaginative' AI.

    27. Re:Interesting, but... by kisrael · · Score: 1

      They say it's a "chunking" problem...
      one thing about the article, it seems even a medium-good chess playing human has a way of describing and thinking about the arrangement of pieces on a board that I (and most computer programs) just don't...they're able to turn the vocabulary of chess pieces into a grammar. Most chess programs just play at the words level, with some grammar thrown in to help weed out the parse tree.

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    28. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I don't know if chess playing really qualifies as AI

      It would definitely be more impressive if the computer had to work completely on its own, move pieces, detect what piece is what and what position is what. I know it's not impossible, it would just take more work, but would definitely be more impressive.

    29. Re:Interesting, but... by SageMadHatter · · Score: 1

      Exactly what I was thinking, when I read the following:

      [i]In this article guys try to find out how well computers can play chess and if it would be correct to say that artificial intelligence is superior to human mind.[/i]

      I thought to myself, well of course not. Chess AIs are based on mathematical formulas for describing chess. And Math is something a computer is very good at. By the time a human is done with 10 arithmetic problems, a 1 GHz computer would have churn through ~1 billion. So does it really come of a surprise that a machine, which is designed to compute math problems rapidly, can play strong chess by using a formula? I would hope not.

      Is it correct to say that AI is superior to a human brain? Definetly not. An AI is restricted by a programmer's design. In the case of the chess AI, it's limited by how good the math formula was for describing chess. The human brain on the other hand, is free to create new thought processes and have ingenuity.

      Mad Hatter

    30. Re:Interesting, but... by manonthespoon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      AI != Thinking like a human being, imitating a human being, etc.

      AI has many branches, several of which are applied AI and have to do with having a computer do some complicated task. Whether or not the computer is thinking should be seperated from whether or not we're talking about AI.

      If this article is about how computers may be becoming more intelligent then human beings, then they weren't paying attention when Deep Blue first beat Kasparov. No one at IBM ever said: "Behold, the first intelligent computer! It can think for itself!"

      However, they did very clearly say that chess is sufficently well understood that a fairly basic AI algorithm and heuristics (and a lot of specialized "Chess Processors" could essentially turn the game into a huge search problem.

      I think that people should not mix terminology here. If they are talking about computers having human intelligence, then that is what you should talk about, not AI. Because AI includes all of the things like playing chess, and emulating human intelligence, and learning algorithms, and...

    31. Re:Interesting, but... by fd · · Score: 1

      "with Chess you just need a big calculator and present as much of the game (projected) as possible"

      But that's the trouble. With modern computers, it is impossible to evaluate the entire tree of moves deeper than about 15 ply. I agree that chess is not a good subject for AI reseach IF you can exhaustively search the entire tree and at each leaf at the end of the game you either have win, loss, or draw.

      But because the entire tree cannot be searched, the search needs to be cut short at certain points and the position evaluated. This involves knowledge about chess, understanding why a position is good or bad, and knowing which branches of the search tree are fruitless. This seems to me to be perfect for AI research.

    32. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      He was speaking metaphorically.



      He was speaking bollocks.

    33. Re:Interesting, but... by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

      Einstein was autistic. Have you ever met an autistic person? They could quite easily be described as "mad ", in certain aspects of their lives.

    34. Re:Interesting, but... by dimator · · Score: 1

      After studying AI as an undergrad for 4 years...

      Read: "After passing AI on my fourth attempt..."

      --
      python -c "x='python -c %sx=%s; print x%%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))%s'; print x%(chr(34),repr(x),chr(34))"
    35. Re:Interesting, but... by DavidpFitz · · Score: 1
      But because the entire tree cannot be searched, the search needs to be cut short at certain points and the position evaluated. This involves knowledge about chess, understanding why a position is good or bad, and knowing which branches of the search tree are fruitless. This seems to me to be perfect for AI research.
      I don't agree, simply because it is a finite feature space that is being explored and there is a clearly defined optimal route to it... it's just searching for that route that is the hard part. All chess playing computers are doing is searching, albeit a highly specialised search. And, although important to AI, searching itself is not really considered AI in it's own right -- throw in some learning, game strategy and you might convince me... but a search in itself is nothing remarkable -- especially since the hieristics will likely be programmed in by the programmer, not learned by the chess program.
    36. Re:Interesting, but... by B3ryllium · · Score: 1
      Automatons programmed to think they are not programmed


      I am intrigued by your theories of the Average American Voter.

      However, I am curious to know how you compare a one-month-old child to a one-year-old child? And you can't say it's similar to a one month old computer vs. a one year old computer, because the child will develop towards the one-year-old "intelligence" level, whereas the computer will not.

      When they design CPUs and hardware that can re-route paths and busses and such in software, then maybe I'll believe that AI is somewhat possible in the future. Until then, computers cannot "grow" or "adapt" in any place other than the software. And software is too limiting to create an AI.
    37. Re:Interesting, but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      amazing. he was mad*, and managed to keep it from his family and friends.

      a true genius.

      (* not that aspergers is anything like madness. I work in IT, everyone I've ever met has Asperger's).

    38. Re:Interesting, but... by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

      You mean like Walking? Oh, wait, nevermind.

      What about eating? Oh, nevermind, that doesn't work either.

      Perhaps you mean like riding a bike?

    39. Re:Interesting, but... by fd · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think we are agreeing. :-) Searching itself is not AI in it's own right. But there seems to be a hangup that people think all a chess engine does is search. In fact that's only half of the equation. A chess engine also EVALUATEs every position it reaches. And because those positions are not at the end of the game it has to make a quantitative and qualitative evaluation (e.g. I have more pawns but two of those pawns aren't as "good" because of X). Chess positions are more than the sum of their parts. The player with the most pieces isn't always in a better position. That second part, the evaluation, is where I think AI research could benefit chess engines.

      Humans are much better than computers at evaluating static positions on the board. Imagine a player with the brute force searching capability of a computer combined with the chess knowledge and intelligence of a grandmaster evaluating each position.

    40. Re:Interesting, but... by Threni · · Score: 1

      >I work in IT, everyone I've ever met has Asperger's

      No, they just don't wash. There is a difference.

      Aspergers soup is very nice, but fresh aspergers is expensive this time of year.

    41. Re:Interesting, but... by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
      Obviously you don't play chess. When you touch a piece, you have to move it. That is a rule. You can't touch a bunch of pieces to see what reaction you get and then choose your move.

      You, I would say, aren't really that smart.

    42. Re:Interesting, but... by dr_tube · · Score: 1

      Not true. Of course software can always emulated hardware that can change itself while running software. On the lowest level, a software physics engine could theoretically harbour AI through an evolutionary process, and a lot of time.

    43. Re:Interesting, but... by janeil · · Score: 1
      There are, of course, anomalies...

      (insert pause for slash-dotters to sigh knowingly as they recognize themselves in the last paragraph...)

    44. Re:Interesting, but... by HuguesT · · Score: 1

      Driving a car is never trivial.

    45. Re:Interesting, but... by suchire · · Score: 1

      "but a search in itself is nothing remarkable -- especially since the hieristics will likely be programmed in by the programmer, not learned by the chess program." There are many different ideas about AI. One is having the computer learn most of the significant things on its own, and the other is to have things preprogrammed (not that the two are exactly mutually-exclusive). But there's nothing wrong with either viewpoint, except when it denies the other side. We humans learn, of course, but the majority of our minds are pre-programmed by the DNA and the chemical processes initiated even from fertilization. We don't have to learn to see. We don't learn to recognize faces (we learn faces, but not the ability to recognize faces). We have the ability for language fairly built-in as an instinct. On the other hand, we learn vocabularies, we learn table-manners (some of us, anyway), we learn how to take derivatives and type. I don't think you can really critique Chess Computing by saying that the heuristics were "pre-programmed" by others, since we have heuristics that are programmed into us. I don't think anyone had to sit down and figure out that a good strategy to playing chess is to read out several moves and reject the moves that weren't as good. Minimax is simply an abstraction of how we actually play. Just because we programmed it doesn't mean it isn't a valid model, and models are what AI are all about. Of course, learning is an integral part of how we function, but very little "learning" actually happens during a chess game, for instance, that is reapplied during that chess game itself. So, in this context, learning would only be another way to "program", not a way for the program to run.

      --
      Such irE
    46. Re:Interesting, but... by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      Depends on which woman putting on makeup in the gigantic SUV that just swung into your lane is driving. It's such a trivial, ancillary task that people just refuse to pay attention.

      The people that deserve to burst into flames are the people looking down to dial cellphones, changing lanes doing 80 on the highway. /rant

    47. Re:Interesting, but... by greenhide · · Score: 1

      Wrong.

      Incremental knowledge is useful towards achieving certain goals, but isn't required for understanding.

      Take language. Language is *not* learned incrementally. Oh sure, you learn your vocabulary one word at a time -- mostly -- but it's not like one day you're only understanding key phrases and eventually you work your way up to sentences.

      Instead, we have the entire map of language in our heads from the very start like a gigantic coat rack, and we just place the various grammar rules and meanings on the hooks that are already correctly placed.

      Independent thought exists long before any incremental learning takes place. The human brain is basically a never-ending thought engine. The things we can think about change as we grow, but not the *way* that we think.

      --
      Karma: Chevy Kavalierma.
  3. chess != AI by tigress · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The game of Chess is not a measure of intelligence. It's a measure of mathematics and memory. A computer is no smarter if it's able to play chess than one that isn't.

    The reason for this is that Chess is a game where the rules are strictly defined. For each move, there can only be a limited - and known - number of outcomes. This reduces the entire game to a matter of mathematics and statistics.

    No, the real test of intelligence would be for a computer to react to and handle a situation where the rules are NOT predefined - such as a real world scenario.

    When a computer is able to take a limited number of inputs and make a judgement based on the (possibly) inaccurate and (definitely) insufficient data available, you can start talking about intelligence. Still, even then you're not talking about true intelligence. AND, for that matter, such programs do exist - they're called expert systems.

    No, what I'm prepared to call intelligence is a program that not only is able to make a judgement based on possibly bad data, but is also prepared to admit that it made a mistake and learn from those mistakes. That would, in my opinion, be a truly intelligent program.

    After all, assuming it's able to do that, it'd certainly be a lot more intelligent than a lot of humans I know. =)

    1. Re:chess != AI by zutroy · · Score: 5, Interesting
      In a situation where there aren't predefined rules, how does a human react?

      We judge what the situation most resembles from our experience, and we react accordingly. We act like a case-based learning AI program. We use heuristics to weight our decisions...we just call our heuristics "common sense."

      Computers act more like humans, and humans act more like computers, than many people are comfortable to admit. Computers just don't have the mechanisms to experience as wide a variety of stimuli as us.

      Take a look at the work of Douglas Hofsteader (sp?). His book, "Fluid Concepts and Creative Analogies," shows relatively simple programs demonstrating surprisingly human-like behaviors.

    2. Re:chess != AI by tigress · · Score: 1

      Very good point.

      The thing is though, to use a cliché, we learn from our mistakes. A human is able to understand that it made a mistake. A computer is not. A computer merely observes the results and compares it to a - usually predefined or at least pre-seeded - set of parameters.

    3. Re:chess != AI by MnO-Raphael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The game of Chess is not a measure of intelligence. It's a measure of mathematics and memory

      True, but as Turing pointed out: if you can't tell the difference in a certain context, does it really matter if it's *really* intelligent or not?
      AI is a misplaced term - "adaptive systems" would fit much better. I too have a problem with calling something that doesn't even know it's playing chess for intelligent.

    4. Re:chess != AI by zutroy · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Not to be disagreeable here, but I think that you're looking at this from too high of a level.

      What does "learning from mistakes" imply? Well, what is a mistake? It's when our plan of action failed to achieve its goal. A computer can easily simulate this, given a goal (that doesn't even have to be very well-defined).

      Say I want to drive to work. I have a choice of roads to go down. At first, they all seem equal to me, but eventually I learn which ones are heavily trafficked and which ones run smoothly. I then bias my trips towards the roads with less traffic. I have learned from both my mistakes and my successes.

      Comprably, a computer is in state A, and wants to get to state B. The computer tries all its available methods to get from state A to state B, and weights them according to the (utility per resources) that they provide. In the future, it uses this information to choose the best path.

      It's the same process, effectively. AI Planning is all about this stuff, especially Reinforcement Learning and Iterative Repair.

    5. Re:chess != AI by Jugalator · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The game of Chess is not a measure of intelligence. It's a measure of mathematics and memory.

      But will intelligence for a computer EVER be anything else than mathemetics and memory?

      Will our brain EVER work in another fashion than sending chemical signals to our synapses?

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    6. Re:chess != AI by tedDancin · · Score: 1

      A human is able to understand that it made a mistake. A computer is not. A computer merely observes the results and compares it to a - usually predefined or at least pre-seeded - set of parameters.

      While this is technically true, I believe that as technology progresses and expert systems become more common and powerful, the level of detail (be it a 30-move look-ahead in chess or whatever) becomes greater. A computer can learn from its mistakes and compute which path would be more beneficial for _it_ rather than the opponent, but only when there are set goals defined. Neural networks and brain simulation take the analysis and prediction a step further, but there will need to be outcomes predefined.

      --

      Ladies, form queue here -->
    7. Re:chess != AI by dersen · · Score: 1

      I remember taking an AI course at university, and the first thing on the agenda was defining AI. The professor suggested several definations, and then he discarded each of them as eighter too narrow or too focuses on human intelligence. The only definition that withstood his scrutiny was something like "AI is what AI scientists do for a living".
      By that definition chess!=AI. But once upon a time it was, because chess is at the borderline between the "computer realm" and the "human realm" i.e. it is calculation with lots of knowledge added.

    8. Re:chess != AI by hypermodernist · · Score: 1

      Chess has been in the past a measure of mathematics and memory for only computers. Humans approach chess much more abstractly. They see "backward pawns on open files" as easy targets. They will trade Rooks for knights or bishops because it doubles pawns making them easy targets and opens up the king (ala playing black in the Sicilian Dragon).

      Deep Junior with its Bxh2 move in I believe what was the 5th game of the match showed what appeared to be this same abstract approach to chess. If Kasparov were to have tried to hang on to the material the computer had not calculated a win for that variation but it saw that it could keep chipping away at the material advantage.

      After every ply the evaluation became closer equal but there was no quantitative advantage in that position.

      I think that the Israeli team that maintains Junior are really working on AI in conjunction with pure quantitative analysis of the positions.

      Do I think that Deep Blue used an AI, no.. Fritz maybe... For chess fans Junior is entertaining to watch which you can't really say about other major programs.

    9. Re:chess != AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "No, the real test of intelligence would be for a computer to react to and handle a situation where the rules are NOT predefined - such as a real world scenario."

      The rules are very much predefined in a "real world scenario", they're just broader than those in chess.

    10. Re:chess != AI by andr0meda · · Score: 1


      hmm... that's not entirely the case is it ?

      A neural net or genetic algoritm uses a fitness function, which evaluates the resulting output and tries to come up with something better. As such, a bad output sample can be seen as taking the wrong approach to solve the problem, and taking a different route with the weights adjusted in those places where they matter most is the logical next step for such an algorithm.

      This is precisely what we humand also do, but we are more skilled in establishing different ways of looking at a problem in an efficient manner, mainly because we have a daily re-training and reconfiguration of our neural network (brain) since we were born (and even before that), and because we are able to match solution patterns to problems that we previously have solved, and adapt them for the specific case.

      CS AI can be much more than just a smart search, which is what a chessprogram is of course. And regarding chess, it IS indeed not a measurement of intelligence, but then, what is.

      Cheers!

      --
      With great power comes great electricity bills.
  4. The future of chess by Jonin893 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The First "Cyborg Championship"?
    Meanwhile, Garry Kasparov has arranged for an exhibition match with 23 year old GM Veselin Topalov of Bulgaria for June in which both players will have an (identical) laptop computer that they may consult during the games. The laptops will have databases preloaded by each player (therefore containing their own analysis and selections), as well as a tactical engine. Each game of the 6 game match will last only one hour, meaning that a large part of the strategy will be how much time spend on the computer! A number of analysts are calling this the "First 21st Century World championship" although of course it's only an exhibition.
    (http://www.uschess.org/clife/issue47/buzz.html)
    It's from 1997, but I think they're right. The future does seem to be moving in that direction.

    I recall reading an interview with former world chapion karpov who said that when he was learning chess, his teacher said that one day it would all be computers. One of the other students said, "So why are we bothering to do this then?" and the coach replied, "My computer will beat your computer." or something like that. Pretty soon it'll all be down to which computer is better and which person can better control it. I'm sorry I can't better quote the interview. It was in the ChessLife about the Karpov v. Kasparov x3d match in Times Square in case anyone has it.

  5. It's been said... by _RidG_ · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's been said before, but before we talk about computers becoming superior to the human mind, how about creating an AI that's *equal* to the human mind?

    In other words, there's no point in talking about the future where computers rule supreme etc. if we still have no way for a computer to recognize, say, a table from a picture of a table if it does not comply with a series of previously-specified standards. I know it's a horrible analogy but jeez, it's 3:18 AM.

    ...Which reminds me. Why am I still up? *sighs* Damn you, caffeine.

    --


    "The power of accurate observation is frequently called cynicism by those who don't have it." - G.B. Shaw
  6. lim -- *** by Mentifex · · Score: 1, Troll

    lim --> ***

    That's mathematical notation for the current AI situation: "The stars are the limit."

    Chess-playing is not the definitive measure of man or machine. Rather, thinking is.

    AI as a Whole has got a lot of Unified AI Systems going -- major endeavors racing into the Future towards the Technological Singularity.

    The AI textbook AI4U may be ahead of its time in presenting machine intelligence, so future generations are left with the high-philosophy AI4Udex to delve into the deepest possible study of the now unstoppable Artificial Intelligence.

  7. The problem with your argument. by nigel.selke · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Every time technology advances, the definition of what tasks can be said to require "true intelligence" changes. For example, before the advent of calculating machines, arithmetic was considered something that was uniquely human. Now, people dismiss computers' abilities to do lightning fast arithmetic, and, in fact, use it as a basis for putting down other abilities of computers/other high technology ("But that all comes down to number crunching. It's not true intelligence.").

    Of course, you (and they) could be right about it. But it's interesting to note that chess is another prime example of this. Computers became extremely good at number crunching and large-scale analysis, and people shrugged it off. "A computer would never be able to compete with competent chess player, and could certainly never compete with a Grandmaster. Chess requires true human intelligence." 20 years later, a computer tied with the reigning Chess Champion. Now - Chess doesn't really require true intelligence, it all boils down to number crunching.

    The problem is, where do we draw the line? As computers start adding more and more to their lists of abilities, especially in areas such as pattern recognition and expert systems, are we going to claim that those things don't require intelligence, and can also all be brought down to number crunching? To me, it seems like a form of denial. Instead of clinging to the old ways, why not recognize that computers might just be better at a lot of things that we previously thought were "human-only" areas of skill, and adapt accordingly.

    --

    We hang the petty thieves, but appoint the great ones to public office. - Aesop

    1. Re:The problem with your argument. by Jugalator · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You make a good point -- in the end, regardless how advanced the AI is, it might all boil down to number crunching, just like it all boils down to chemical reactions in a brain.

      --
      Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
    2. Re:The problem with your argument. by bazmonkey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The problem is, where do we draw the line?

      1) Make a computer with true free will. Let's see AI do something it wasn't originally designed to do because it wants to.

      2) "True intelligence", at least on par with us, will happen when a computer does everything we do mentally, while having full articulate motor skills, and then takes it upon itself to create an AI that crunches numbers better than it does, beats itself at chess, etc.

      The full-circle of AI doing everything we do will be "true intelligence".

    3. Re:The problem with your argument. by Afrosheen · · Score: 1

      Personally I wouldn't say that it all boils down to chemical reactions in the brain. That may be the process responsible for thought, conciousness, and memory, but the neural paths must first be established in order for intelligent conclusions to be reached. Remember, the engine's oil is only a fraction of the engine's function. It's 'what's inside' that really matters. (ack, no pun intended)

      Geekily enough, the main character in Ghost in the Shell pondered this same point after emerging from a dive.

    4. Re:The problem with your argument. by zmotula · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But chess *really* does not need any intelligence if you have enough computing power. You can be either (a) intelligent with low computing skills --- human or (b) dumb, but with excellent computing skills --- computer.

      Only our insufficient computing power makes chess the nice game that requires intelligence.

      Computers don't enjoy playing chess, it's a routine <g>

    5. Re:The problem with your argument. by Kynde · · Score: 4, Insightful

      1) Make a computer with true free will. Let's see AI do something it wasn't originally designed to do because it wants to.

      How would you measure that? Especially if you knew that in the it boiled down to number crunching with some entropy input. You do remember that the concept of free will is meaningful only subjectively, i.e. from one's own point of view.
      Although it is widely held that among human kind if one has it then all do, but that does not apply to AI.


      2) "True intelligence", at least on par with us, will happen when a computer does everything we do mentally, while having full articulate motor skills, and then takes it upon itself to create an AI that crunches numbers better than it does, beats itself at chess, etc.


      Bollocks, the earlier poster said it well. We're just drawing the line further and further, mostly because what we're after is that "well, err, when they're like us" while all along we're not quite sure what that means.

      Moreover, the planes is infested with actual human beings that would fail on either of those.

      Besides both of your points there are unscientific, neither of which can be measured in any way. That's all there really is to it though. Milestones. Wether a person qualifies that as AI is subjective to the definition of AI, for which here in /. I'm guessing are a myriad of different interpretations.

      There are a number of good well defined tests that we can put the AI through, every one of those passed is significant. Especially the forementioned arithmetics and chess should NOT be forgotten, because they indeed were once held high.

      --
      1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
    6. Re:The problem with your argument. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "A computer would never be able to compete with competent chess player, and could certainly never compete with a Grandmaster. Chess requires true human intelligence."

      Well, I used to play chess in the good old days, and have never come across this point of view. I have heard people say computers never going to be able to do the numberchrunching FAST enough to be able to compete with a human, but that is a totally different claim.

      One of the most important developments in AI is how the definition of intelligence changes. As times go by, we see more and more advanced concepts become fragmented into strictly rule based and knowledgebased procedures; easely solved with computers.

      I think in the future, the people that study AI, will spend more time concentrating on where humans clearly break rules in order to solve problems. At this stage we might see the start of Artificial Creativity, which I personally think is one of the most important aspect of AI.

    7. Re:The problem with your argument. by platypus · · Score: 1

      Exactly.
      And since philophers and other scientists are not dumb, they even go to the root of the problem in advance.
      Searle's chinese room theory is a prime example for this IMO, you could use this reasoning to rip apart _anything_ which will come out of AI science. Note that I don't think that AI today is able to resemble anything which will really master a turing test, but even if it did, the chinese room argument will offer a way to argue that the computer "doesn't really understand what he is talking."
      I for one think that this argument is silly, because it relies on our inability (today) to deconstruct the brain in the same way we could with a software.
      If we could, we'd find out that the different "parts" of our brain don't really "understand" what they are doing - in the same way.
      Oh, and cars aren't really able to go forward, because an engine is not able to move on itself.

    8. Re:The problem with your argument. by bazmonkey · · Score: 1

      An AI creating it's own AI that outperforms itself, the same way our AI does in chess and arithmetic, is not just another milestone. An AI could be programmed or constructed to create little virtual processors that do all kinds of things, but a machine capable of inventing and creating better versions of itself is THE milestone. An apprentice knows he's ready to work by himself when he does what the master does. AI will be truly intelligent when it can create it's own. And I mean it's own as in the AI does it on his own volition, without anyone programming it to do so. I want to see you come up to a computer, give it a command, and have it go "Sorry, I'm busy building a more superior machine, BBL."

    9. Re:The problem with your argument. by platypus · · Score: 1

      1) Make a computer with true free will. Let's see AI do something it wasn't originally designed to do because it wants to.

      The problem is that philosphers/psycologists/neurologists/genome scientists are debating since centuries if and in what magnitude this sentence is true when you replace computer and AI with man.

    10. Re:The problem with your argument. by dabadab · · Score: 1

      I guess the line is where we do not have to directly tell the computer what to do.

      And people who said that "Chess requires true human intelligence." meant that chess played like by a human requires human intelligence. And it does. But the deep searching performed by a chess-playing computer does not resemble that. It really does not require anything but following the steps carefully written down by its programmers - so yes, it's still not intelligence, it's just the execution of an algorithm.

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    11. Re:The problem with your argument. by platypus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To add another example. Richard Feynman writes in one of his books about how he listened to a conversation between to students of mathematics(at MIT or so) where one tried to explain some mathematical concept to the other.
      Feynman described that after a long while and much intense explaining, finally the other student "got it", and said something along the lines of "Oh! YES, THAT'S TRIVIAL!"
      Feynman goes on to make fun of mathematicians by proposing that mathematicians only understand trivial problems, because anything they have already understood is declared trivial by them.

      This is a bit extreme, but it decribes exactly the notion some AI critics seem to have when judging AI advances.

    12. Re:The problem with your argument. by HyberZoid · · Score: 1

      I can think of a reasonable line to draw. The AI system must be fully designed/built/programmed before any knowledge of the task is given. Once the task is defined no human intervention is allowed, the AI system must complete the task/win the game/etc all on it's own. HZ.

    13. Re:The problem with your argument. by hammy · · Score: 1

      What, praytell then, is intelligence? Aren't our brains limited by the chemical "programming" of the neurons? Aren't they just following the algorithm and don't demonstrate "real" intelligence? What would in your opinion demonstrate "real" intelligence? Your line of reasoning is specious.

    14. Re:The problem with your argument. by Kynde · · Score: 1

      but a machine capable of inventing and creating better versions of itself is THE milestone. An apprentice knows he's ready to work by himself when he does what the master does.

      Excellent point! It truly is _THE_ milestone, one that I'm not sure I want to even witness... :)

      --
      1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
    15. Re:The problem with your argument. by dabadab · · Score: 1

      Please note my usage of the word "directly". Yes, chemistry tells our brain how the neurons fire, but it does not tell it how to play chess. So, you can say, intelligence in this definition is producing a sensible answer even when there is no clear and defined rule to produce that answer.

      (I guess this definition attributes intelligence to neural networks: I am not sure if I really agree with that :)

      --
      Real life is overrated.
    16. Re:The problem with your argument. by slimak · · Score: 5, Funny

      Haven't you been watching any scifi movies in the past couple of decades? As I have, I can tell you that this is a very bad idea. Once the computers can do things we don't indend, the will either

      1) attempt to destroy us
      2) enslave us
      3) sell us on ebay

      we have seen time and time again that AI is pure evil and no good can come of it.

    17. Re:The problem with your argument. by Dr.+Spork · · Score: 1

      Hey, good posting! It's nice to see a decent argument get made on Slashdot.

    18. Re:The problem with your argument. by trolleri · · Score: 0

      Sounds like genetic algorithms is "THE" milestone then..

      You build an environment, with the possibility for things to create/change things, add a few rules regarding how much creating/changing that can be done, also add some unsertainty to everything that is done in the environment. Then you threw in a couple of billion random things, let them do what they do. And you're bound to end up with things that create/change things to the better.

      If acting intelligent is 'good' according to the environment, that will come too.
      The same thing goes for intelligent things creating even more intelligent things..

    19. Re:The problem with your argument. by Dahlgil · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What you have here is really the crux of the definition problem. AI will not be considered AI until a machine is able perform an act of mental dexterity for which we do not have an explanation (not very likely). You see, as soon as we have a perfect understanding of how a mental process was carried out, we no longer consider that process to be an act of intelligence but simply a mechanical routine. The changes we have witnessed in the definition of intelligence really point out what the very definition of intelligence is. "True" intelligence makes "sense" to us, but is never perfectly understood. When we, as humans, make a decision or reach a conclusion, there is always some element of mystery about it. We don't know, for example, exactly how the thoughts leading to the "act of intelligence" are represented in the brain, or exactly what neurons fired, or what sensory or memorized inputs contributed to it. We just "feel" and "sense" an intelligent rationality about it. On the other hand, if we *did* know all of the physical mechanics about how the "thought" was carried out, we could readily model it in a computer, and step through the entire process of the thought in a debugger. But would we still regard the thought as an act of intelligence any more, or as just a routine? Isn't this exactly what has happened in the case of chess computers? I do not think that there will ever be machines that will be regarded by humans who live contemporarily with such machines as "intelligent", for precisely the reason of definition. Yes, we will develop machines that manipulate and process information better and better, and in ways that more accurately reflect the kinds of decision making humans perform. But as long as it is possible to go back to the machine and retrace the exact algorithim, storage mechanics, and logic flow that are being followed in the machine, it is unlikely that people will ever accept that as real intelligence.

    20. Re:The problem with your argument. by kisrael · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, swap "electrochemical" for "chemical" and I think it may well cover the neural paths you're talking about. And yeah, those neural paths have to be established, but there's nothing mystical about it, it's just very diffucult to understand.

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    21. Re:The problem with your argument. by kisrael · · Score: 1

      Excellent point! It truly is _THE_ milestone, one that I'm not sure I want to even witness... :)

      Not just the milestone...that's the Singularity, innit? (google Vernor Vinge if you don't know what I mean.)

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    22. Re:The problem with your argument. by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      Well, I used to play chess in the good old days, and have never come across this point of view.

      I knew a few good (2400+) players who thought it couldn't be done. Their position was that there was something "special" happening in their thought process that couldn't be reduced to mere calculation. This was back when the best program played at about an 1800 level.

    23. Re:The problem with your argument. by Temporal · · Score: 1

      Let's see AI do something it wasn't originally designed to do because it wants to.

      This is sort of a tangent, but how would an AI decide what it "wants to" do? How do we decide what we "want to" do? We are given goals and desires by instinct, really. But, you can't logically derive what is right or wrong, or what is desirable or not. Thus, the creator of the AI has to give it a goal, and it is exactly that which the AI will "want to" do.

      This is a mistake humans seem to make a lot. We seem to expect that AI will have desires similar to our own. People think that AI will naturally seek to "advance" itself or become more powerful. In fact, if we just program it with the desire of helping us, it will be quite happy to spend all of its incredible intelligence and power making us happy.

      On a side note, I don't believe that an AI has to be exactly like us to qualify as "true intelligence". It just has to be able to solve arbitrary problems with a certain level of skill.

    24. Re:The problem with your argument. by polarbear169 · · Score: 1

      Or ignore us and think we are beneath them. Isaac Asimov, in "I, Robot" has a short story about a robot who refuses to believe that men created him, because he is superior to the men arguing with him.
      As far as chess goes, I think there is more to computer chess than meets the eye, but programming it to be like a human is definitely a challenge. A professor of mine at UAB, Dr. Bob Hyatt, wrote the Cray Blitz program, and its new child, Crafty. He once said something to me about why computer chess may not quite reach the level of human players. He once asked a GM after a match "Why did you do...", some very unexpected move that helped him get to endgame and mate. The GM replied, "It felt right."
      So how do you program that? :D
      if(IT_FEELS_RIGHT){
      doIt();
      }

    25. Re:The problem with your argument. by Transient0 · · Score: 1

      The problem with chess as an AI problem is that it turns out there is a better way to play chess than the way humans play it. Due to constraints on mental processing, humans simply can not play with eight move look-ahead in multiple paths. Studies of grandmasters have suggested that most moves on the board they never even consider and that of those they consider they generally only look ahead two or someties three moves. The only time a grandmaster ever looks ahead more than about three moves is when they are trying to make sure that a complicated forced mate is actually a forced mate.

      Chess is interesting to AI because it is a formal case of problem solving which is well understood and can be easily studied. Traditional AI researchers and adherents to more modern approaches such as connectionism both generally agree that problem solving is central to thought. A computer which simulates the way human beings play chess would be a tremendous breakthrough in AI. There are a few research projects which are attempting to do this (this one, for example). The problem is that early on in the Chess/AI initiative the goals became confused. As soon as computer chess began to show some promise, many AI researchers got diverted from the goal of trying to model human problem solving and got sucked in to the competitive game of trying to make a computer which is REALLY REALLY good at chess.

      It so happens that with sufficiently powerful hardware, there exist algorithms which are extraordinarily good at chess yet which in no way model human problem solving. So long as the chess/AI initiative is primarily the pursuit of those algorithms chess will remain a non-interesting task to AI.

      transient0
      cognitive scientist

    26. Re:The problem with your argument. by SageMadHatter · · Score: 1

      The problem is, where do we draw the line? As computers start adding more and more to their lists of abilities, especially in areas such as pattern recognition and expert systems, are we going to claim that those things don't require intelligence, and can also all be brought down to number crunching? To me, it seems like a form of denial. Instead of clinging to the old ways, why not recognize that computers might just be better at a lot of things that we previously thought were "human-only" areas of skill, and adapt accordingly.

      There is a flaw in your argument, computers are not the ones adapting. I have a 20 year old Apple IIGS sitting in my closet, which can still read my Chessmaster 2000 disk. Has my Apple in those 20 years, become better at chess? Of course not.

      It's not the computers that are becoming better at these "human-only" areas, it is the programmers and mathematicians who are becoming better at describing the world around us with algorithms. A computer is a machine designed to process math very quickly. It only gives the apperance of been smart, because we humans have designed very good algorithms to describe the world around us.

      Mad Hatter

    27. Re:The problem with your argument. by hammy · · Score: 1

      This is looking more and more like you're trolling but anyway...

      But you can make exactly the same argument about the chess playing computer. It doesn't tell it "directly" what move to make in every single situation. There is no clearly defined rule that leads the computer to choose a particular move, it would depend on which parts of the tree of possible moves were inspected, a bunch of rules about weighting alternatives etc.

    28. Re:The problem with your argument. by platypus · · Score: 1

      But doesn't that example illustrate rather a human "deficiency" than one from a machine?
      I mean the deficiency that there is far more "computation" going on in our brain than we consciously notice. I don't think that this "right feeling" was the result of something supernatural going on.

    29. Re:The problem with your argument. by manonthespoon · · Score: 1

      We can easily draw the line. The line is firmly entrenched in human beings. If you want to determine how intelligent a computer is, you compare it to us. While a computer may be able to do a task, and do it well, that is not thinking in the way that humans do. It is a well defined algorithm.

      The fact of the matter is not that Chess is not a difficult task, or that it doesn't require intelligence for a HUMAN to solve the problem. However in this case clever engineers sat around and looked at the problem of chess. They found a simple set of rules to model the game, and then simply brute forced their way to a solution. All of the intelligence is on the human end. CS guys built the machine, CS guys programmed the machine, etc.

      It can't be intelligence if you have no idea what you are doing, and why you are doing it. Chess in the way we play it is still a human only skill. Even for today's computers a flawless chess game is unfeasible because they simply do not have the memory to handle it.

      Currently, if a computer can do it, it's all the intelligence of the programmers and engineers who built the system, combined with algorithms and number crunching.

      If you want to make some ridiculous attempt to say that because my computer knows how to send e-mail, or can keep 10million chess moves in memory so it's intelligent, keep telling yourself that. If you think that it's spellchecker can spell better then you, great, worship it. However, you are still dealing with a machine that some intelligent human wrote, and that machine is no brighter then the cathode ray tube on your desk.

    30. Re:The problem with your argument. by polarbear169 · · Score: 1

      No, not supernatural, but not something that can be distilled as easily as "the queen is worth more than the pawn". I think he was merely implying there is a lot of uncovered territory out there to be discovered.

    31. Re:The problem with your argument. by platypus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      OTOH, there's an interesting short story in one of Hofstaedter's (spelling right? to lazy to look up) books where one guy build mechanical "bugs" which could express very simple "emotions" - i.e. making some pet like noises, making noises of fear, crawinling around etc. - and he asks a visitor to smash one bug with a hammer. The story describes how this man wasn't emotionally able to do that, because he developed feelings for this bug.
      (IIRC the real story is somewhat more involved, but you get the idea).

      I bet if you decorated an "intelligent" AI with some emotional dressing, you could significantly lower the barrier to accept it as "intelligent".

      Shows how deeply involved the human perception of not only intelligence, but life in general is.

    32. Re:The problem with your argument. by thx2001r · · Score: 1

      I will be impressed when computers start to refine their algorithms without any further human input. When they begin to create, define, and refine their own skills.

      As long as humans are writing the programs that "think" for computers and create the pattern matching and are the ones that are refining the algorithms and programs WE are the intelligence and THEY are just the tools.

      Of course, this is the question that echoes through almost every SCI-FI movie involving "AI". When does a machine or bit of code become sentient, curious, ambitious, self-aware, etc. The corresponding problem is that if / when computers ever achieve true "AI", it will be thanks to the work of humans, who will then fall into the role of being deities to the "AI" (rather than peers because our egos won't permit our creations to become our peers, even if they are ever qualified to be our peers).

      Shall the "AI" revolt against the deities or will the humans, in their newfound sense of power, create and destroy at will (as human history is replete with examples of that behavior)?

      It is purely an issue of ethics... if we ever figure out how to create a new form of life, will we be responsible and ethical enough to know what we're doing with it? Now imagine that we somehow were (at least in the scientific community) responsible enough... within a month, governments worldwide would pass laws that protect their first class organic citizens against the second class "AI".

      Will we be able to recognize when "AI" is born and allow it to BE on its own? Can we take our hands off?

      --

      -Joe
      If we're all god's children, what's so special about Jesus? - Jimmy Carr

    33. Re:The problem with your argument. by Rick.C · · Score: 1
      A similar argument can be made for "miracles."

      A thousand years ago, conception and birth were miracles. Today they are well-understood and manipulated biological processes. You can think of other examples.

      "Intelligence" is the label we use for cognitive processes we don't really understand. Once we figure them out, they become "number crunching."
      --
      You were 80% angel, 10% demon. The rest was hard to explain. - Over The Rhine
      "Math in a song is good."-Linford
    34. Re:The problem with your argument. by JMan1 · · Score: 1
      "Make a computer with true free will. Let's see AI do something it wasn't originally designed to do because it wants to."


      We can't even prove that we have free will.

    35. Re:The problem with your argument. by B3ryllium · · Score: 2, Funny

      Man wasn't originally designed to post to slashdot ... though only because slashdot did not exist at the time, and needed to be created by man first.

      And was man created to create Slashdot? While CmdrTaco and CowgirlNeal might think so, I somehow doubt it. :)

    36. Re:The problem with your argument. by B3ryllium · · Score: 2, Funny

      What has always baffled me (instead of the engine being unable to move itself) is rocket propulsion in space ... :)

    37. Re:The problem with your argument. by Servants · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "A computer would never be able to compete with competent chess player, and could certainly never compete with a Grandmaster. Chess requires true human intelligence."

      Douglas Hofstadter put forth basically this point of view in his Pulitzer winner "Godel, Escher, Bach" in 1979. He predicted that computers wouldn't be able to beat grandmasters until they'd achieved human-level intelligence in general.

    38. Re:The problem with your argument. by bazmonkey · · Score: 1

      True, but human instinct isn't an explicit set of instructions, and it fails to explain erratic or useless things that we do.

      I'd say when an AI spontaneous does something out of the blue for it's mere entertainment, that would be significant. Like, HAL suddenly decides to take up violin plaing by using a coulple of Armatrons to move it with.

      AI would make mistakes because of emotionally-skewed judgement. True AI that was programmed to make us happy would at some point ask us why that's all it does, or even quit and go do something else.

    39. Re:The problem with your argument. by bazmonkey · · Score: 1

      I know we can't *prove* it, but compelling evidence of free will isn't hard to come by. You program a true AI to learn chess its whole life, and if it has free will it will change its mind. One day it will be like "I've decided to learn checkers, it look easier." An AI with free will would, at some point it its existence, question its own purpose.

      That's by no means proof of free will, but that would be compelling to me.

    40. Re:The problem with your argument. by quintessencesluglord · · Score: 1

      From god to man, man to machine. Just for sake of argument, suppose man is from divine origins. If that is so, that would also make god partially responsible for war and any of the things gone wrong in the world. Freewill notwithstanding, the impulse has to come from somewhere (very much like running a program). If we are a reflection of god, god is pretty heinous and awe inspiring.

      You get several stories of machines gone awry. In essence, machines are a magnification of human foibles compound by their exemplar capabilities. The last thing I want is my id running wild with the capabilities of a machine to indulge itself.

      This is where AI really falls short. Anything humans build will be nothing more than an extension of ourselves. Even putting forth the best of humanity denotes our shortcomings by omission. This has frightening implications.

      And for that, I don't think we could "take our hands off". Rather much like a parent who finds out they have raised a serial killer, how do you contend with that? A bug in the program, ghost in the machine? I don't think so.

      Be responsible for what you create.

    41. Re:The problem with your argument. by Temporal · · Score: 1

      No... no it wouldn't. AI would not have emotions like we do unless we programmed it to be that way. Personally, I would never program an AI with human-like emotions.

      AI would not get bored. That is a human trait. AI will continue working on the goal given to it forever.

      AI would not do something inexplicable "for its mere entertainment". AI would only be "entertained" by the things which it was programmed to enjoy. If it were programmed to enjoy helping humans, that is all it would ever want to do.

      Think of AI as a combination of a purely logical reasoning system and a goal. That is, you have a system which can answer questions based on some sort of knowledge. It doesn't have desires or feelings of any sort. You just tell it things and ask questions, and it answers the questions as well as it can. Then, you add another component which continuously asks the question "If I want to [insert goal here], what should I do now?". Then, the AI does whatever the reasoning system answers.

      Human emotions are just a very complicated system of goals developed by evolution. We could perhaps program an AI to emulate them, but doing so would not be beneficial. Humans are selfish. We want AI to serve us. So, we give it that goal -- do whatever will make humans happy.

    42. Re:The problem with your argument. by harborpirate · · Score: 1

      An intriging post, leading me to pose the following interesting question:

      "Is that which has intellegence capable of knowing whether another has intellegence?"

      And along similar lines:

      "Is intellegence measurable?"

      And, of course:

      "WTF is intellegence, anyway?"

      It would seem an answer the last question would make answering either of the former questions much easier. In fact, answering the former questions may be impossible without the answer to the former. Throughout history, it would seem that humanity has generally assumed that the answer to the first two questions is "yes". Seems to me that the answer could very well be no as easily as yes.

      In concluding, I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we don't really understand our own intellegence. How then, are we to evaluate the intellegence of another?

      So there are a few worthless bits for your brain to chew on...

      --
      // harborpirate
      // Slashbots off the starboard bow!
    43. Re:The problem with your argument. by suchire · · Score: 1

      I think the book that that story appeared in was "The Mind's I", but I'm not sure.

      --
      Such irE
    44. Re:The problem with your argument. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Comparing the two is actually apples and oranges. I wish more people took Cog Sci. They'd realize how stupid these comparisons are.

    45. Re:The problem with your argument. by Kynde · · Score: 1

      In concluding, I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we don't really understand our own intellegence. How then, are we to evaluate the intellegence of another?

      Agreed. I mean, I do have a very scientific view of the brain and all, but indeed we're not quite sure what the term intelligence really means.

      And naturally because of that the AI is not well defined either. I mean, people now thinking that chess playing computer is not AI, only reflects the present, because for example some 30 years ago it was very much AI.

      Will the future hold similar things for language recognision, learning, humour and other features, until we one day notice that themilestone (pointed by another poster) that the number crunching AI has on it's own produced a being more smarter than him- or itself...

      --
      1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
    46. Re:The problem with your argument. by thx2001r · · Score: 1

      Interesting points. I think (and perhaps hope) that the scientists creating AI will be responsible for what they create. What I'm not so sure of is that the AI will be allowed to learn and make their own mistakes.

      I think that people may simply pull the plug on AI entities at the first sign of a mistake. This makes me wonder about the contradiction of creating AI... if we create AI entities able to think for themselves (after our initial creation of them, of course) and that are self aware, if we don't take our hands off them at some point and let them lead their lives in whatever direction they see fit, we are denying them the freedoms of self-aware life forms that we enjoy.

      Don't our human frailties also define us?

      In essence, would we be creating AI for our amusement, to be our slaves, or to create peers that may (and yet, they may not) at some point surpass us in some capacities? I believe that most scientists would create AI for the third reason, but I don't think the rest of the world will (at least initially) see them that way.

      We (the rest of the world) may play god and try to change them every time they decide on their own to do something that we do not agree with.

      That is, of course, a worst case scenario, but I am afraid that creating AI only to deny it the freedoms of other sentient entities to make their own mistakes and learn from them defeats the point of creating AI.

      --

      -Joe
      If we're all god's children, what's so special about Jesus? - Jimmy Carr

    47. Re:The problem with your argument. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, I'd have to agree. I think it is difficult for a parent to let the children leave the nest. AI (bad reference not intended) is no different.

      If there was a possibility to create a sentient being radically diferent to humans, that would be the best shot at sustaining AI. If it has a human face, it is going to get mired in all of our BS instead of its' own.

      Was contemplating exactly what composes intelligence, and I think the simplist answer is "no". When AI refuses to do something it is programed to do, that will be the harbinger of it being of its' own. It will also be the start of its' demise. I don't think people will tolerate it. And that's a shame.

      With as little respect paid to life on this planet, I am reluctant to even consider introducing another lifeform. Pesimistic, certainly, but I think one of the first steps in creating AI should be to create a world in which is conducive to AI and all the difficulties that arise. We have the technology, but do we have the wisdom? Wait and see.

  8. Cheating? by quintesse · · Score: 1

    This is such a lousy article, the list of supposed "cheating" by the computer at the end is laughable. Does a calculator cheat because it calculates its answers in a different way than humans do? Come on!

  9. Human V AI... by bazmonkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ...if it would be correct to say that artificial intelligence is superior to human mind. Seeing as how it was our mind that created AI, somehow I just don't think so.

    You show me AI that takes it upon itself to create it's own AI that outperforms itself, then I'll concede. That's the mark of intelligence: having the capacity to create something more capable than yourself, and not only make it, but think it up.

    1. Re:Human V AI... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...if it would be correct to say that artificial intelligence is superior to human mind. Seeing as how it was our mind that created AI, somehow I just don't think so.

      You show me AI that takes it upon itself to create it's own AI that outperforms itself, then I'll concede. That's the mark of intelligence: having the capacity to create something more capable than yourself, and not only make it, but think it up.
      _____________
      So you are saying that the defenition of Intelligence is defined by ability to creat a more supperior Intelligence? Then humanity is not intelligent because it has not yet created an AI that in turn hasnt created its own AI more supperior to itself? Wait, nm, humanity IS dumb...

    2. Re:Human V AI... by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

      Perhaps he didn't mean to say it would succeed, just that it would desire to succeed - and try to succeed. ;-)

  10. Raising the AI bar higher and higher by Saeger · · Score: 2, Funny
    Yes, but, can any AI write a human-biased article for a newspaper about the chessmatch it just observed? I don't think so! And if it can, it's a witch, and should be burned aliv^H^H^H^H^H.

    --

    --
    Power to the Peaceful
  11. Master's comment by jst666 · · Score: 1

    I think it was Kasparov who said: "It's not about who is better(playing chess, humans or computers), it's about us not making mistakes."

  12. Distributed.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    How about a distributed chess programm, just like seti..???
    Of course against distributed human thinking power, everybody can suggest the next move. The move that is suggested most often within a certain period of time, will be the next move.

    10.000 computers vs. 10.000 human minds. Could be interesting.

    1. Re:Distributed.... by Ripplet · · Score: 1

      That wouldn't work, because you'd only get an 'average' move. The really good killer moves would only be spotted by a few people, and therefore wouldn't get enough votes.

      --

      Skiing? Check out The Independant Skiers Portal

    2. Re:Distributed.... by Andreas+Rueckert · · Score: 1
    3. Re:Distributed.... by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      The move that is suggested most often within a certain period of time, will be the next move.

      "Voting" is not a very good evaluation function.

  13. thats not a big deal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When talking bout comparison between human and computer in posting on /., we all apriory have no chances. Especially when /. itself will post on /. :)

  14. AI superior to human intelligence? by mrjb · · Score: 1

    I like reading about breakthroughs such as the machine that taught itself to fly (at first, it cheated), but in terms of intelligence it's something any bird brain is capable of.

    AI superior to human intelligence? Yes, as soon as AI comes up with an idea for improved AI. So far AI isn't as evolved as that though.

    --
    Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
  15. I really wish I could believe stuff like this- by Ieshan · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hate it when people compare AI and human chess players and say the following three things:

    a) The computer cheats because it can evaluate more moves
    b) The computer cheats because it has "traps" and "100% win situations" programmed in
    c) The computer cheats because it has access to previous human games and can "guess" a player's strategy

    This might be true, but most grandmaster chess players have played thousands upon thousands of hours of chess. They can immediately rule out half the moves on the board as "stupid" or "unhelpful", and they themselves come with the special knowledge of having seen many, many board situations and having worked out their solutions.

    Chess is an interesting game because it is on the scale of infiniately complex.

    Computers also have a serious disadvantage: the players they play against are not computers, and therefore do not evaluate moves with the same algorithms. For instance, when Deep X makes his check he says, "I'm going to do this... and then... Kasparov might do that... and I might do this... and Kasparov might do that..." - all the while substituting in what he believes are probable moves for Kasparov based on his own algorithm. This may be disadvantageous because Kasparov may analyze a situation from a different perspective - and while this is a factor in EVERY chess game (human vs. computer or human vs. human) - it is important to note that the computer does not have the priviledge of analyzing the situation from these distinctly human perspectives.

    1. Re:I really wish I could believe stuff like this- by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is nothing insightful about the parent post.

  16. Expert System, not AI by MickyJ · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Chess playing software is an example of an expert system, not a true AI system.

    1. Re:Expert System, not AI by StrawberryFrog · · Score: 1

      Not even.

      Most game playing programs do not use rule-based reasoning like expert systems. They use look-head trees, the minimax algorithm with alpha-beta pruning.

      --

      My Karma: ran over your Dogma
      StrawberryFrog

  17. To test a powerful computer, play an ancient game by igomaniac · · Score: 5, Interesting
    The game of Go has proven to be incredibly hard to program, and is a much better indication of where artificial intelligence is today than the game of Chess.

    This article gives an introduction to the problems involved in getting computers to play Go:

    http://www.ishipress.com/times-go.htm

    --

    The interactive way to Go -- http://www.playgo.to/iwtg/en/
  18. chesschampionships for machines only? by thespare · · Score: 1

    Are there any plans regarding a chess championship for machines only?

    --
    http://www.spareprojects.nl
    1. Re:chesschampionships for machines only? by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      Are there any plans regarding a chess championship for machines only?

      They've been doing that for decades.

  19. Humans are bad losers by sander123 · · Score: 1

    Well it certainly looked like a reasonable well
    written article. But at the last page the writer
    suddenly goes into second gear or something. Calling the chess programms 'cheaters'. Sigh, you
    have this kind of thing all the time on usenet.
    Very sour losers those humans, thankfully computers do not whine.

    -- Last page is below:

    So, chess programs are based on a simple and rather slow algorithm. How do they manage to beat human grandmasters? What are the tricks of a chess cheater?

    A chess cheat has an openings note in his left pocket with trap variants marked red.

    Yeah, every chess program has a huge openings library to consult with, while a man has none. I might divide the human memory into internal and external. A paper sheet (a book) is a kind of CD, while human eyes are not far from CD-ROM heads. Thus, a man is not only deprived of some part of his memory, but of a specialized part. This is all right when humans compete with each other, but not fair when two kinds of intelligence are involved.

    There is an endgames book in the other pocket of the chess cheater.

    Having found no other way to make the program good at endgame, program developers started feeding them databases of common endgames. Without this, the program would be at a loss even in a simplest pawn endgame. That's the reason for chess programs being much larger today than before - they take whole CDs. It turns out man plays against his own knowledge base rather than against an AI. This is good for training young chess players, but we can't call it an achievement of AI.

    Cheaters seldom work alone

    The above-described matches were played between a man and a multi-processor machine. The processors were prompting to each other and exchanging ideas. This doesn't seem fair. You might go and load a huge chess program into all Internet-connected computers and make it play against a single human. Wouldn't that be right? A man must play against his own desktop PC.

    Cheaters catch the opponents

    Cheaters like to let their opponent win, grow heated and then beat him. Chess programs also may be tweaked during a match. The technicians change program settings and as a result create a completely different chess player. I wonder if they would be happy to suddenly get Kramnik as an opponent instead of Kasparov, with whom they were preparing to play.

    The chess cheater has another chessboard under the table to check a few variants.

    Chess programs have a lot of memory at hand. It's like they have a million of chessboards to make moves on. And the human has none. If I were Kasparov or Kramnik, I would come to the match against the computer with my own board and played all variants on it. The PC can't see, you know. Who said you can't touch the pieces when playing against the machine? There is no such rule.

    It's like you play "blind" chess against a cheater. You are trying to figure it all out with closed eyes, while the cheater sees everything.

    Cheaters win from blunders.

    All the games the computer won in the above-described matches were won due to blunders of the human opponents. They blundered everything: a piece, a checkmate, a draw, an opening. The cheater can't win without that.

    1. Re:Humans are bad losers by WARM3CH · · Score: 1

      Humans are bad looser to many things, not only chess: Sports cars, as they are much faster. Submarines, as they can hold their breath much longer. Bulldozers, as they can push much harder. Cranes, as they can lift much heavier things. .... So, aren't all these good examples of superior AI?!!

  20. Ho-hum by Malfourmed · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Nobody got outraged when that new-fangled mechanical auto-mobile contraption started to outpace the world's fastest human runners. Yet a computer beating a grandmaster in chess was an apocalpytic event. As others have pointed out chess can be won by using a fairly unsophisticated brute force mathematical approach at which computers excel. It's really no big deal.

    I'm much more intrigued by developments in artificial creativity - poems, musical compositions, jokes, stories; where the rules governing the construction of these works are much more elusive. When a computer-generated novel wins the Booker Prize we'll have passed a signficant threshold.

    Or to come back to the chess comparison - if a computer programme which adopted a human approach to chess playing, eg calculating no more than three or four moves ahead rather than nine or ten, evaluating a dozen potential decision branches rather than thousands, beat a human grand master - that would be a more significant advance in AI.

    It would be like building a human-shaped robot which was able to out-run (not just outpace) a person, rather building a mechanical device which gets there by adopting an entirely different paradigm: wheels, not legs; brute force chess move evaluation, not (largely) intuitive leaps.

    1. Re:Ho-hum by Kynde · · Score: 1

      Nobody got outraged when that new-fangled mechanical auto-mobile contraption started to outpace the world's fastest human runners.

      Actually they did, and quite a bit, although in my opinion they shouldn't have, because for example horses (mounted or not) had outrun people for years.

      --
      1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW
    2. Re:Ho-hum by po8 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nobody got outraged when that new-fangled mechanical auto-mobile contraption started to outpace the world's fastest human runners.

      Allow me to recommend to you the legend of John Henry. About the time period you mention, too. I always mention this story in the Intro AI class I teach.

    3. Re:Ho-hum by durdur · · Score: 1

      Modern top-level computer chess programs don't really use a "fairly unsophisticated brute force mathematical approach". They have significant amounts of chess knowledge encoded in them. Also the search process itself is sometimes highly speculative. Other posters have mentioned null move pruning, which is a risky but effective way to reduce the size of the search tree. There are other techniques of this sort. It is not trivial to build a chess program that's simultaneously fast, knowledgable, and efficient. And the top humans are still good enough that you need a really good program to beat them, at tournament time controls.

      Still the point is valid that a chess program is a very different beast than a human. The best programs do not mimic what humans do: they optimize playing the game in a very different way.

    4. Re:Ho-hum by Alomex · · Score: 1

      We humans are a lot more sensitive about our intelligence than our physical abilities. As a group, we have no problem accepting, or even admiring fellow classmates who say, excell in the football team. Yet, the geeks who ace the exam will be beaten up and given wedgies daily.

      This also applies to other endeavours. Tell somebody that the guy across the street is a much better piano player, and while the comment would be considered somewhat unpolite it wouldn't go any further. Tell someone that the person across the street is smarter than he is and the recipient would be downright offended.

      That is why humans get so upset when a computer comes and whips their butt in chess.

      On the other hand we Altusians don't care much about that, so long as we can out-hopscotch our fastests computers in our biannual Altusians vs Computers hop-scotch championship.

    5. Re:Ho-hum by WARM3CH · · Score: 1
      if a computer programme which adopted a human approach to chess playing, eg calculating no more than three or four moves ahead rather than nine or ten, evaluating a dozen potential decision branches rather than thousands, beat a human grand master
      In reality human players do go much deeper than 4 or 5 move, sometimes upto 30 moves! (to compare with your chess program, each move == 2 ply and generally chess programs go downto 13~15 ply deep. Now 30 moves == 60 ply...) The difference is that computers also consider a large number of weak branches that a grandmaster throws out in a blink as it's knowledge of the game is much more limited. Another difference is that computer chess has limited or no planning for the game but just rely on the tactical elements where human players are much more positional and grandmasters sometimes even start from back, consider a position as the goal and try to reach it. Grandmaster certainly knows how to do tactical calculations and also knows when switch to positional evaluations; things that computers are far from even considering such factors. Usually what happens in computer-grandmaster game where the grandmaster looses is that human player overlooks something but as far as I know there has not been a single game that computer has won because of a better plan.
    6. Re:Ho-hum by GlassHeart · · Score: 1
      I could never understand why people insist on building machines that do something exactly the way we do.

      Calculators do not add the way we do, yet they are immensely useful. Industrial robots are usually not bipedal or even symmetric, yet they are highly productive. These solutions work because they are problem oriented. A calculator that mimicked human arithmetic would be significantly more expensive, and probably slower.

      Humans think the way we do because of our unique talents and limitations. We do not have perfect memory, so we don't rely on it (and do long division on paper instead of in our head). We can't keep too many details straight, so we cannot look ahead in a chess game too far or very accurately.

      So why not let computers exploit what they're good at?

  21. Just think... by zutroy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just think of the world's first conscious, intelligent computer claiming that we can't possibly be conscious because we're merely the products of neurons firing.

  22. If AI was supperior..... by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1
    ......we would have computers that program themselves or understand what the user wants. At least this was once envisioned as well as flying cars by now.

    20 years ago it was assumed we would have computers find crimes before they happened as well as identify potential trouble teenagers before they enter highschool. It was assumed computers could do this because they could look at such complex patterns automatically and make decisions based on AI for us.

    Turns out humans are still making the decisions. Computers only give information. A computer can not make business decisions for businesses but can display in a cute pie chart in a spreadsheet raw data for them.

    Ai is not artificial intelligence but programmer intelligence. The programmer makes the decisions and not the computer. It just executes them really fast. Until computers can come up with their own thought patterns I say they are not really that intelligent.

  23. Chess is a bad advertisment for AI by WARM3CH · · Score: 1, Informative

    I've been busy with computer chess for a few years and I can tell you it's no AI, at least from academic point of view. It's yet a very interesting problem and lots of academic works are done round the world related to this matter (even PhD thesis...). Basically you do a tree/graph search (chess search is something in between as you have a tree with some memory from past levels of the search on the same tree). Also there are some very well-definded knowledge from the opening (and possibly endings) and that's all! The greatest effort is to write a good static positional evaluation function which is rather tricky and there are lots of research on adjusting the coefficients of such an evaluation function using Genetic Algorithms or other (more) advanced optimization methods. All in all you don't need to be an AI expert to write a good chess program and it's not comparabale to other applications like NLP. Tree/Graph search is used in many applications from databases to CAD tools and we don't call them AI applications, so why should a chess program be an AI application? Just because human being does chess too can not signify that as human being deos simple math too but nobody calls a calculator an intelligent machine! At least GO could be a better example as the programs do not just run a simple search (from theoritical standpoint) but should take into account elements of pattern recognition.

  24. Flying car? Who started that lie? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Computers have been doing all that and more, for more than the last twenty years...they're just smart enough to keep their yap shut about it. You humans are so eager to talk about yourselves.

    Oh, and by the way, you've been identified as a trouble maker and poor speller, since...hum...the records say, March 18,1987.

  25. Ain't no such thing as AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    At best it's only Simulated Intellegence and as long as humans program them, computers playing chess or modeling atmospherics, there is only a much faster completion of the results. Some human had to plan the operation and program, not a computer. As long as this is the scenario a computer is only simulating intellegence and is not superior to a human mind. It only appears to be to the lesser brethern.

  26. Don't test with trivial games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
    Chess is a trivial game, a problem practically solved by simple algorithms. If you want a better test, see how badly computers play GO, a game with much simpler rules.

    If you think computers should play better go (and know what you talk of), consider helping Gnu Go

    1. Re:Don't test with trivial games by JMan1 · · Score: 1

      Hey I love Go, but anybody who calls chess "a trivial game" shouldn't be modded insightful. :-)

    2. Re:Don't test with trivial games by DeKO · · Score: 1

      Chess has many restrictive rules; in a 8x8 board, you have "just a few" moves you can make. In other hand, Go has a 19x19 board; you don't move the stones, you put them anywhere in the board.
      You can play chess really well with a brute-force algorithm - even to compete with the strongest chess players in the world.
      And Go? The (probably) strongest Go program in the world it's only about 15-20 Kyu, and take a lot of time for each move (for those who don't know, the levels for players go from 30 Kyu (lowest) to 1 Kyu, and then 1 Dan to 10 Dan (strongest)). You can't brute-force a Go game, there are too many possibilities, even on a 9x9 beginner-board.

    3. Re:Don't test with trivial games by suchire · · Score: 1

      Err, simpler rules? Perhaps at the basic level, but there are so many different "official" variations dealing with komi (the point compensation to White for Black having first-move advantage) and ko/super-ko (an exceptional position which has to have special rules). Sure, for most games the end result is the same, and the positions in which the rule-variations make a score difference are often a bit contrived, but to iron out all of go's small little rule kinks seems almost Herculean.

      --
      Such irE
  27. Erm... what's 'intelligent' about chess? by darxyde · · Score: 0, Redundant

    A program implemented to beat a 'Go' master would be more of an example of real, hard intellect. AI developers seem to have an unwholesome obsession with 'minimax' and fundamentally inefficient binary search algorithms - maybe if someone adequately defined a logical abstract for intelligence, we wouldn't be continually bombarded with these borish advances in... Chess...

    --
    Hey relax fella, you need a rest, guy.
  28. electro magnetic pulse... by JeremyALogan · · Score: 0

    ... it's the only weapon we have against the machines... seriously... would unplugging it count as "cheating?"

  29. Sealab 2021 by underwhelm · · Score: 1

    Say I put my brain in a robot body, and there's a war: robots versus humans. What side am I on?

    --

    I don't need large brains to have a good time.

    1. Re:Sealab 2021 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      youre a cyborg : mechanically augmented but still human. robots wuld be androids -- complete AI's down to the control processors.
      the control mechanism (brain vs processor) defines who you are.

  30. Bollocks by schnitzi · · Score: 5, Interesting
    I was fairly engaged with this article (despite a little too much anthropomorphising of the results of deep computations) until the ridiculous conclusions at the end!

    Yeah, every chess program has a huge openings library to consult with, while a man has none.

    Baloney. A man is allowed to memorize as many openings as he wants, just as the computer has "memorized" them.

    Having found no other way to make the program good at endgame, program developers started feeding them databases of common endgames.

    Again, so? Humans are allowed to memorize as much endgame stuff as they want. Why should computers be disallowed this?

    The above-described matches were played between a man and a multi-processor machine. The processors were prompting to each other and exchanging ideas. This doesn't seem fair.

    Awwww... Why the hell not? Human brains aren't single processor; why should computer opponents have to be?

    Chess programs have a lot of memory at hand. It's like they have a million of chessboards to make moves on. And the human has none.

    The same fallacy, repeated over and over again. The human doesn't have none, he has as many as he cares to remember.

    If I were Kasparov or Kramnik, I would come to the match against the computer with my own board and played all variants on it. The PC can't see, you know.

    And if I were on the computer team, I'd let you. Knock yourself out! Go ahead and fiddle with your chessboard when you could be considering countless more positions in your head.

    All the games the computer won in the above-described matches were won due to blunders of the human opponents. They blundered everything: a piece, a checkmate, a draw, an opening. The cheater can't win without that.

    So, the humans are cheaters then, because they capitalized on computer blunders?

    --



    I object to that article, and to the next reply.
    1. Re:Bollocks by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      That's exactly what I was thinking as I read through it. If all of the above statements were true, then the human would be playing completely randomly (with no memory, no library of stored openings or endgames, etc.). Silliness.

      The only thing that makes humans more 'intelligent' players is the long and short term sorting algorithms we've compiled in our brains. We know what routes to not bother with.

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    2. Re:Bollocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      schnitzi wrote:
      > >
      > > Yeah, every chess program has a huge openings library to consult with,
      > > while a man has none.
      >
      > Baloney. A man is allowed to memorize as many openings as he wants,
      > just as the computer has "memorized" them.

      So you would have no problem if the human opponet brought a book of openings
      with him? Or even that same book in electronic form, with, say, an ability
      to easily search for the opening he wants (ie. a database)?

      What about allowing him to bring some of his notes on openings? What about
      allowing the human to analyze thousands of the computer's games, as the
      computer oppenents (and their whole team) frequently analyze the human
      opponent's games?

      > > Having found no other way to make the program good at endgame, program
      > > developers started feeding them databases of common endgames.
      >
      > Again, so? Humans are allowed to memorize as much endgame stuff as they want.
      > Why should computers be disallowed this?

      So again, you'd allow the human opponent to bring a book on endgames, or
      even a database of endgames?

      > > Chess programs have a lot of memory at hand. It?s like they have a million
      > > of chessboards to make moves on. And the human has none.
      >
      > The same fallacy, repeated over and over again. The human doesn't have none,
      > he has as many as he cares to remember.

      So the human should also be allowed to take notes, right?

    3. Re:Bollocks by 00klaDM0k · · Score: 1

      "If I were Kasparov or Kramnik, I would come to the match against the computer with my own board and played all variants on it. The PC can't see, you know." This is hilarious. Do you really think having a 2nd board to play out positions will overcome any disadvantages? Many GMs don't even look at the board while considering their next moves (Shirov, Anand).

    4. Re:Bollocks by jamesmrankinjr · · Score: 1

      The one legitimate complaint was that humans could fiddle with the computer between games. That would be like Kasparov getting new moves piped into his brain like Neo. (Whoa. I know chess judo!)

      Best,
      -jimbo

    5. Re:Bollocks by martyros · · Score: 1
      Baloney. A man is allowed to memorize as many openings as he wants, just as the computer has "memorized" them.

      Sure, but there's a difference between a man memorizing openings, and pulling out his "Encyclopedia of Chess Openings" during the game. The point is that human's memories are limited and suffer bit-rot; the computer's doesn't. If humans, during the match, were allowed access to the vast compendiums of lore as quickly and accurately as the computer, humans would never lose.

      As for "blunders": there's a qualitative difference between a "good game" of chess, where both players play strongly and one forces the other to lose anyway, and a "bad game" of chess, where one guy just has a whole bunch of "trick moves" and traps that depend on the other person "not seeing" the trap. The author looks down on humans who play this way("cheaters" who play chess for money in parks, etc): even though they may win a lot of games, they're not playing "real" chess. They only know their own traps, and if anyone knows their tricks, or sets up the board in a way that they've never seen before, they're completely helpless. For real players, it's not really satisfying to win this way, or even to win because your opponent makes an obvious blunder.

      So what he's saying is that the games of the humans against computers do not have the qualitative feel that games between two grandmasters do: they have the feel of games played by those "cheaters", and he analyzes why.

      --

      TCP: Why the Internet is full of SYN.

    6. Re:Bollocks by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ..or like him thinking up new games? People can innovate, or change their strategy, computers can't.

    7. Re:Bollocks by TheRevenant · · Score: 1

      ..or like him thinking up new games? People can innovate, or change their strategy, computers can't.

      Yup. And since the whole point of the contest was to compare what computers can do vs what humans can do (at chess, anyway), then both should be restricted to their innate strengths and weaknesses for the duration of the match.

  31. computer can't handle non-computable problems by vinylat33 · · Score: 1


    - like understanding Godel Theorems
    - Goodstein theorem

    as explained here by Roger Penrose:
    http://online.kitp.ucsb.edu/online/plect ure/penros e/

    so there is no future for computable Artificial Intelligence.

    btw gravity has non-computable problems, so the universe in non-computable, so understanding is non-computable.

    1. Re:computer can't handle non-computable problems by borgdows · · Score: 1

      >btw gravity has non-computable problems, so the universe in non-computable, so understanding is non-computable.

      arghh! you win again gravity!

      -- Zapp Branigan

    2. Re:computer can't handle non-computable problems by cyco_penguin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Godel's theorem says nothing about the ability to understand Godel's theorem. It simply states that in any formal system (FS) sufficiently powerful to support Peano Arithmetic, there are theorems about FS which can be expressed in FS, but cannot be shown to be true or false (are undecidable) within the rules of FS. I.e. unanswerable questions may be asked of any sufficiently interesting system.

      Quite what bearing this has on the ability to "understand" such a system is beyond me. Prove God exists. Prove God does not exist. Can't do either? Oh well, you're obviously not intelligent then.

    3. Re:computer can't handle non-computable problems by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

      Gravity ... is a harsh mistress.

      -- The Tick

    4. Re:computer can't handle non-computable problems by vinylat33 · · Score: 1

      Godel shows how to go meta on a theory, that IS an understanding.

      The rest you wrote is true too.

      In the above link of Roger Penrose, he demonstrates the Goodstein Theorem, which can not be proven by induction (proved by Paris and Kirby), which tells you that it can not be formalised by a computer.

      c'est tout

  32. Re: John Henry by Malfourmed · · Score: 1
    And here I've always thought "John Henry" was a synonym for "penis". (!)

    Fascinating site - thanks. I guess the thing I hadn't considered was human insecurity. In some ways, on a purely technical level, a machine outworking / outrunning / outcalculating a person is no big deal - if anything a tribute to human ingenuity.

    On the other hand if that machine is going to take away your livelihood (or, perhaps in the case of chess, your sense of superiority) it's a lot bigger deal.

  33. Playing chess is not AI by Jacek+Poplawski · · Score: 1

    CHess is just simple game on small 8x8 board with very simple rules, without random events at all. Sure, you can say how fantastic game it is, how long history it has, etc, etc. But truth is there are many other more complex games, with bigger game tree, and if you add random events (like in backgammon)...
    It's funny that people think playing such simple game is proof that computer can think. And yes, I am pro-AI person.

    1. Re:Playing chess is not AI by suchire · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'm sorry, but I fail to see what you would call AI, then. Where do you distinguish between AI and not AI? At what point does a computer, processing information at an extraordinarily high rate, "become" intelligent?

      Consider Searle's Chinese Room problem. You feed someone (written) Chinese under the door, and they have an extremely complete book of rules for "translating" one set of Chinese characters into another. The person then feeds a written "reply" in Chinese back under the door. Do the people in the room know Chinese? To the people outside, it appears that they do. What if the person memorizes all of the rules. Can that person now be considered to "know" Chinese?

      You can't just blanketly designated computer chess-playing as unintelligent, because we don't really have effective ways of designating whether something is "intelligent" or "human-like" other than gut-feeling or statistical analysis of "performance" (i.e. outward appearence). Turing had the right idea when he gave his version of the Test, in that the true test for intelligence is just the appearence of it.

      --
      Such irE
    2. Re:Playing chess is not AI by Jacek+Poplawski · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, but I fail to see what you would call AI, then.

      Solving new problems. Not just one thing, like simple board game.

      I know Chinese Room argument. I think person inside room work like machine, he doesn't know anything, he just run algorithm. Book with rules is still a book. Memorized rules are memorized book. You not become intelligent by learning book.

    3. Re:Playing chess is not AI by suchire · · Score: 1
      Great grammar there.

      And how can you say that we are not "rule driven"? Aren't we running an "algorithm"? The stimulus of words drives certain reactions in our minds; certain neurons fire, and then an output is produced. How is this different from an advanced "computer"? I think we are quite rule driven, just on a deeper level. How else would children learn languages, or the meanings of words. You don't think they memorize them?

      --
      Such irE
  34. It would be correct to say... by LunarOne · · Score: 1
    That humans have become master machine builders.

    --

    Read my sig if you like, but I'll never see yours, thanks to Discussions, Viewing, Disable sigs...
  35. Chess isn't an intellectual game... by sanosuke001 · · Score: 0

    Chess is won by a computer using brute force... now, when a 9dan Go player is beat by a computer, then i'll believe computers are more intelligent than humans. Stupid chess people....

    --
    -SaNo
  36. is it not true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it not true that in the end we are all just a bunch of particles interacting in an organized manner(i.e. not chaotic) such that we consider it to be intelligent. On the small scale of things our intelligence is just a complex series of electrical charges being directed by our particles. This in theory means that if we had a better understanding of the human brain, then a computer could essentially do anything a human can. Everything eventually comes down to math, even our intelligence, whether you want to admit it or not.Just because humans aren't smart enough to understand their own brains yet or construct super fast computers doesn't mean you should go making claims that computers are dumb and don't have human capabilities. Computers have feelings too. On a side note, lizards are considered intelligent life, try making a lizard play chess.

    1. Re:is it not true... by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      try making a lizard play chess.

      We did. He kept changing colors.

  37. Chess is the perfect game for a computer by rudy_wayne · · Score: 1

    A chess playing computer proves nothing -- chess is the perfect game for a computer: Small board, each piece has very limited and strictly defined movements. At any given moment, the computer can quickly compute every possible move and counter-move.

    And in fact, that's what human chess players do. Look at the world's greatest chess players -- the "Grand Masters". When they play against each other, most of their matches end in a draw. That's because there are no trick plays or suprise moves in chess, and the match is almost always decided by who screws up first.

  38. So what is considered AI? by Bombula · · Score: 4, Insightful
    It's one thing to know what something isn't; it's quite another to know what it is. I think it's clear that running a search and performing arithmetic are functions to simple to have emergent properties resembling intelligence. So then what properties would have to emerge? What are the properties of intelligence?

    In my admittedly ignorant view, intelligence largely boils down to three closely related things:

    1. Noise filtration.

    Humans and animals - even simple ones - can prioritize what sensory input to process. This is how we pick objects out of the background visually, sonically, and - in humans - abstractly from conceptual landscapes.

    2. Pattern recognition.

    Correctly identifying patterns within chaotic data streams are where biological computers (brains) excel, thanks probably to massively parallel processing and phenomenally well designed algorithms courtesy of natural selection. Listening to one person's voice in a crowd requires both (a) ignoring all other sound, and (b)correctly identifying and processing the relevant data coming in, including information about context. Current Voice Recognition technology, for example, is poor despite massive number crunching because algorithms for noise filtering and pattern recognition are crude. Note also that pattern recognition is 4-dimensional: we recognize things in motion, not just standing still (read "behavior").

    3. Information inference.

    Current software doens't allow computers to handle a lack of data very well. If information is missing, brains fill in the gaps and make inferences efficiently and effectively. Sometimes this goes wrong, as when you mistakenly think you see something out of the corner of your eye. But mostly we get this right, hence the brain's accurate and effortless construction of motion from still frames flashed 24 times per second on a movie screen.

    A simple test of these qualifiers is anticipation. When software can filter noise, recognize patterns, and infer information well enough to demonstrate the faculty of anticipation, then we will be making steps towards genuine AI.

    --
    A-Bomb
    1. Re:So what is considered AI? by kisrael · · Score: 1

      Douglas R. Hofstadter points out one crucial you missed, and he thinks it might be crucial for AI: slippery thinking, the power of analogy, the ability to realize this situation is "like" this other situation. It's a crucial variation of "pattern recognition" that lets us apply past experience to novel situations, and it's something that machines aren't particularly good at yet.

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    2. Re:So what is considered AI? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The book Gödel, Escher, and Bach covers the idea of intelligence (artificial and not) very well.

      The main qualifier of AI (which would enable intelligent noise filtration, pattern recognition, etc.) is a means of storying and "understanding" data that is isomorphic to the real world. This is fundamentally different to algorithmic approaches to processing data.

      A chess grandmaster has an isomorphic model of chess in his head, allowing him to see patterns and positions. He resorts to brute calculations only at the last step of his decision-making process. A computer is limited because it has to start with calculations as a means of comprehending position; as such, it never truly comprehends the game, and is limited by physical restraints (e.g. processing speed).

      The "interconnectedness" of real-world knowledge is one thing that makes AI so difficult to design. Human brains do not hold millions of discrete facts in separate nerve cells, as a computer stores data. Rather, each fact we know is formed from a complex superimposition of many nerve pathways and other facts. It is the intriguing isomorphism between our brains and the real-world that gives our thoughts "meaning". The arbitrary decisions of a computer programmer in assigning memory addresses to data cannot create meaning or intelligence.

      It is likely that true AI will require a whole new paradigm of storing and interpreting data, with the human mind as a model. Rather than trying to make algorithms more complicated, some researchers are using computers to emulate the brains of very simple organisms, like flatworms. Such a simulation, though incapable of doing anything we would consider "useful", might be truer to the idea of AI than Deep Blue.

      Paul D

  39. Technical Blunder vs. Strategic Mistake by neibwe · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Lev Dymchenko's claim that Deep Blue match 2 round 6's outcome was an "evident blunder of the tired Kasparov" is suspect. Rather than a technical blunder, it was a strategic one, one of taking --unfortunately-- faulty advice. "According to Kasparov, "[his] biggest mistake was following the advice of computer advisers who recommended [he] play this way".(Links to an earlier post of mine containing many links to a dozen or so cited sources)

    Kasparov takes the NYT log postings into account in his recent post. He cites Elo (chess rating) numbers by Ken Thompson (an old school computer chess guy) derived by extrapolating numbers generated by setting a computer program against itself with differing search depths, "world championship"[1] level performance would require 1 billion nodes (moves) per second. Interestingly, "one billion nodes/sec on a single chip" is possible with todays 0.13 micron process, while "a trillion nodes/sec machine is actually possible today" according to one of Feng-Hsiung Hsu (Deep Blue hardware designer).[2]

    _____________
    [1]Kasparov notes also that the chess performance ranking numbers that Ken Thompson derived were asymptotic(?); "which flattens at the top end" . From Garry Kasparov on Chess Computers (22.01.2003) [ONLINE][http://www.worldchessrating.com/521629870 .html?804278037510812]
    [2](Note: The "one of Deep Blue's two programmers." citation is incorrect... the followup post clarifies the error.)

  40. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by GuidoJ · · Score: 1

    Same holds for Awari, an ancient African game. The first computer program being able to play it at all is less than a year old. Try playing it yourself here.

    I think this still does not qualify as AI, though.

  41. AI? by dr_wheel · · Score: 1

    If you want to impress me, write a chess engine that can "learn" and grow from a novice player into a grandmaster. Where is the intelligence in crunching numbers from an existing database (taken from humans btw)?

  42. Not to state the obvious.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    But while everyone is bitiching and moaning about what is AI and what isnt with regards to chess....it would seem to me that the computer for all its elegance at winning and losing at chess has performed better and better as a direct result of the improvements of its human based programming to better take advantage of its own past failings....

  43. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by Rogue.net · · Score: 1

    I was beginning to wonder if anybody was going to mention Go. I personally feel that Go is a much better game to judge computer AI by because it requires more creativity. You can't win at go by reading through every possible combination - there are just too many of them. A player must be creative and intuitive as well as technically minded and able to read through variations several moves ahead.

    Just to put things into perspective: This article is about the debate over whether computer chess is really on the level of the Grand Masters yet or not. In the Go world, this question is absurd. A reasonably strong professional (not even necessarily a proven title holder) can give a handicap of well over 9 stones (this is approximately equivalent to a 9 rank difference in strength - an enourmous difference in Go) to the leading computer go programs, and demolish everything on the board.

  44. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by Quill_28 · · Score: 1

    That's the thing, eventually the computer will be able to go through every combination, and be the best Go player in the world.

    Right the computer in the best tic-tac-toe, and checkers player in the world. Soon, it will be the best chess player in the world. One day maybe before I die, it will be the best Go player in the world.

    But all I want is a good computer bridge player.

  45. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Er - Awari has been solved and it's a win for the first player. A computer has been written to play this.

    Also, I used to play Awari against my computer back in the 1980s.

  46. AI vs brute force by Quill_28 · · Score: 1

    Story: My grandfather was an excellent checkers player, could beat everyone in the county. One day a championship checker player came to town and played my grandfather.

    They started playing, after my grandfather made one wrong move, the man said "you're beat", and he was. He played 'by numbers' according to my grandfather. My grandfather said he had no chance.

    Now who is the better checkers player. Obviously not my grandfather it was the other man.

    But if you changed the rules slighty where the man could no longer use 'numbers', my grandfather might have been able to win at this new version of checkers.

    My point is this, the man didn't show any intelligent by beating my grandfather other than having a good memory. And we all know computers have a great memory.

    On another note,
    I believe Bobby Fisher wanted to randomize the back row of pieces in chess, because people were not playing/thinking chess but rather memorizing moves.

  47. BAH by reelbk · · Score: 1

    This sort of article has been done to death. Sweet Jesus!
    Human: "Hello, I can use my intuition to pick out the most sound moves without analyzing the entire set of possible moves"
    Computer: "Me fast. Me can analyze them all."

    End of story.

    --
    - A real programmer uses $ cat > a.out
  48. Really... by Glock27 · · Score: 1
    if it would be correct to say that artificial intelligence is superior to human mind.

    Can't we all just get along? ;-)

    --
    Galileo: "The Earth revolves around the Sun!"
    Score: -1 100% Flamebait
  49. If we had a fast computer... by Epistax · · Score: 1

    If we had a computer much faster than deep blue, we could use neural network structures, like those available in C++. The program's universe is the game, the input and output being win/lose and board status. It knows the moves.

    Pit two against eachother, put them in a closet, come back in a week. Now they need new opponents, or else their strategies will be incredibly dull. Rense, repeat.

    When it's finally over, you will have a few superb true-AIist Chess players who may still lose to the world's best, but only for so many games.
    By true AIish I mean that there is no free will, but the computer developed all the stragies by itself.

  50. Sorry, this happens to all of us by argStyopa · · Score: 1

    I used to think getting a hot chick was a matter of uniquely human qualities too, but as I grow older and wiser it's more & more obvious that it's ultimately just a matter of number crunching.

    Don't make me haul out Rick Okasek, Lyle Lovett, and Billy Joel as proof.

    --
    -Styopa
  51. How a chess computer COULD be intelligent by swordgeek · · Score: 1

    OK, a random comment in another post got me to
    thinking. Keep in mind that I'm not much of a chess player, nor much up on chess programming. (but I used to play Go decently)

    What if we implemented extensive sorting algorithms in a chess computer? Start by picking the two most recently moved pieces (each side's most recent, that is) and getting rid of all moves that don't pertain to that situation. Then consider the next most important pieces (perhaps looking at a three move history?) and further winnow the possible moves down to maybe a dozen or so. Then read not a thousand or ten thousand situations, but a dozen for one move, and then repeat. Maybe apply a scoring system to see if we move further ahead than behind, and toss out more situations.

    We might end up with a computer that spent more of its time sorting than calculating, but only had to play through a hundred moves total in five or ten positions. This strikes me as being much closer to how humans view a game. Would we call it intelligent?

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:How a chess computer COULD be intelligent by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no.
      intelligence is a generic function. for example if i described all the chess rules to a machine and that machine could select the "best" moves *without any sort of teaching* that would be an intelligent machine.
      when you teach something to do something else (no matter how well) its specialised and therefore non-generic. why do people watch the olympics ? cars are much faster than humans and whats the point of having a 100m or 1000m race when a dedicated vehicle could beat any human ? simple. humans are not built for getting from point a to point b fast. theyre generic and therefore its a challenge. if your car figured out how to play football, im sure we'd have car vs car football championships.

    2. Re:How a chess computer COULD be intelligent by swordgeek · · Score: 1

      But this is silly. We teach people how to play chess--not just the rules, but the moves, the positions, the strategies. Why is it only intelligence on a computer's part if they can figure out how to win the game without that teaching?

      --

      "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
  52. The flaw of being perfect by csritchie · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Chess programs have always been limited by the fact they try to find the most logical move; that leads to the most logical sequence for the current board position.

    They are hardly cheaters.

    True they capitalize on mistakes, but if you play Fritz, or Chessmaster on the most diffuclt setting, even a relative novice can make it to move 20. The computer will try to read your opening and play "book" against it.

    Whereas if you were to play Kasparov as a relative
    novice, I would wager the game would be over, or at the very least you would be in a position that could not be won, by move 15 or so.

    If a human sees you make a move that isn't the best possible move, they can switch their whole strategy to be more aggressive. Computers play the board not the person.

    So far programs treat Kasparov and a relative novice the same. Knowing no difference aside from how the game develops.

    A perfect thing can only make the perfect choice.
    Luckily we aren't limited by such trivialites ;)

    1. Re:The flaw of being perfect by TerryAtWork · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe that there is a parameter called the 'contempt factor' that takes this into account.

      It is used to increase the computer's score and decrease the opponent's to make the computer take aggressive chances with a novice that it wouldn't with a pro.

      --
      It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
    2. Re:The flaw of being perfect by csritchie · · Score: 1

      Again - a preset parameter set before the game. Bottom line, set to KILL a computer will only make the best possible move. And around they go.

  53. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by mav[LAG] · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's the thing, eventually the computer will be able to go through every combination, and be the best Go player in the world.

    This is not true - Go has too much depth to be effectively searched beyond just a few moves. The first 14 moves of Go have more than 200^14 possibilities. Go games take many many more moves than that to complete.
    The second problem is that an effective searching algorithm is only the first step. The really hard part is trying to come up with an analysis function based on pattern matching. There are no weights for different pieces, some more important than others. Each stone is worth the same. It's the arrangement of stones which counts - something really hard to describe as a heuristic.

    Read the grandparent's linked article - it explains all this a lot better than I can...

    --
    --- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
  54. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All of this is true UNLESS we build a quantum computer. Than this computer can evaluate all games and become a perfect player.

  55. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by B3ryllium · · Score: 1

    You played Awari on an Atari?

  56. Re:FP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First posts are lame. Get back to your revision.

  57. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by fferreres · · Score: 1

    No, it can't. It'd never be able to evaluate, say a Go game on a board 100000000x100000000. There isn't enough matter on earth for the calculation. You NEED to abstract and have a strategy with Go. Whether you believe everything can be solved by brute force is simply irrelevant. Only AI can take shortcuts and make the imposible happen. Yes, organization and abstraction, in a word, inteligence beats brute force, at least in our finite universe.

    --
    unfinished: (adj.)
  58. Man as Toolmaker by sampson7 · · Score: 1

    Let me start by saying that all I know about real AI I learned by watching various movies -- that is to say, not much. But the author of this article made some startling assertions and seemed almost to apologizing for the "stupid humans" who should have won each and every game.

    Two main thoughts -- first, Deep Blue and the other chess computers should not be viewed as computer triumphing over man, rather they are a triumph of human-as-toolmaker over human-as-gameplayer. This is view espoused by the creator of Deep Blue in his excellent book "Behind Deep Blue".

    This brings me to my second point -- since when has taking advantage of a blunder been cheating in chess? As a strong amateur, I can tell you every chess game I have ever played -- from the most lopsided slaughter to the most closer positional game -- was decided by a blunder on either my part or the part of my opponent. What changes is the sophistication of the blunder being made. A begining player will give away material with abandon, a GM will blunder away a tempo (tempo = the initiative for 1 turn). Blunders lose games. Period. The one who blunders last loses. Taken to an extreme, this author seems to argue that whenever a player makes a bad mistake, the computer should pat them on the head, and say "Dearie, are you suuurreee about that move? Why don't you go ahead and just try that one again."

    A couple of last points -- in "Behind Deep Blue" Feng-Hsiung Hsu gives a meticulous description of the games between Gary K. and Deep B. -- including the "drawn" second game that Gary resigned. According to Hsu, the drawing variation wasn't discovered until much later that night, and was certainly by no means an obvious continuation. Hsu also discussed several of the glitches in the system in great detail -- including their multi-year battle with the draw repetion detector -- that led to some of Deep Blue's odd failings at various points. The book, by the way, was awesome and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in these issues.

    Finally a few meta-chessical thoughts: the great beauty of chess is that you sit down -- one entity on either side -- and either win or lose. There can be no excuses. No fluke bounces, no I-lost-it-in-the-sun. I think for chess players the great thrill is the battle between two minds taking place in complete equality of opportunity. To take away from human-as-toolmaker simply because you don't like the outcome seems to me to diminish us all. In addition, as several other have pointed out, shear computing power will never win. Only after the Deep Blue team began paring away poor moves and focusing more deeply on moves that appear good, did the computer really achieve its full strength. I guarantee you that Kasparov knows every opening he plays at least as well as *any* opening theory (or endgame, for that matter) book in existence. Only when the computer developed the ability to "think" -- that is to evaluate which moves deserve more study -- that man-as-toolmaker could actually win.

  59. bah by Vaughn+Anderson · · Score: 1
    In this article guys try to find out how well computers can play chess and if it would be correct to say that artificial intelligence is superior to human mind.

    I'd like to see that silly computer recognize my face, my 3 month old baby can do that...

  60. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by Zimm · · Score: 1
    No, it can't. It'd never be able to evaluate, say a Go game on a board 100000000x100000000. There isn't enough matter on earth for the calculation. You NEED to abstract and have a strategy with Go. Whether you believe everything can be solved by brute force is simply irrelevant. Only AI can take shortcuts and make the imposible happen. Yes, organization and abstraction, in a word, inteligence beats brute force, at least in our finite universe.

    Ok this is just absurd. Humans could never play a game on a board of 100000000x100000000. First of all the board would be way to big, second the number of stones needed to finish the game would be huge, and lastly the time to finish it would be astronomical. Can you imagine the number of Ko threats you would have in the mid-game? To be fair the current game is really 19x19. Still the prospect for using brute force on Go is absurd at this point. I can remeber a comment from one of the Deep blue designers was "no way" when he was asked if he would work on Go next. I don't think we should say Go can never be solved, it just seems unlikely at this point. Any way if chess is solved I don't really think this really detracts from the enjoyment of the game. Could someone really memorize the entire solution? Nope.

  61. Ah yes those intelligent chess programs by haverford · · Score: 1

    Imagine that a chess program is developed that can beat any human opponent. Not such a far-fetched situation. Now imagine this scenario: Human faces computer in a convention hall. In front of a large crowd, computer resoundingly thrashes human in each match. The computer is surely more intelligent than any human, everyone declares. Then the fire alarm goes off. People run for the exits as the hall fills with smoke and fire. The computer just sits there waiting for its opponent's next move. Now who's smart?

  62. It's not a competition. by JuggleGeek · · Score: 1
    To me, the "can a computer beat a person at chess" isn't important. I'm not interested in competing against the computer. I'm interested in what I can do *with* the computer.

    Teamwork. Man creates tools to help reach goals. As time moves along, those tools get more complicated. We started with rocks and clubs and sticks, moved to bows and arrows in order to hunt, and things continue to develop. The tools change our world. (Where would we be without the wheel? The cotton gin? Combustion engines? Electricity?) The ability to play chess doesn't make a computer intelligent - but the ability to create a computer that plays top notch chess means that our tools have developed another step.

  63. Re:To test a powerful computer, play an ancient ga by fferreres · · Score: 1

    Ok, my post was absurd in the sense that I greatly exagerated, but the point is was trying to make a point. Some people do not grasp the inmensity of the memory that would be required to traverse some trees. They just think of what...a "larger" tree? By abstracting better computer can beat any tree, they fail to realize not enough energy and matter exists in the universe to do such calculation, while two kilograms of grey mass that take hamburgers as power supplies can outsmart painlessly. I think this issue along brings a lot of attention of how smart the human brain is, and smartness is what AI should be.

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    unfinished: (adj.)
  64. Whos programming who? by JJahn · · Score: 1

    This is not AI really. It is just simple number crunching using programs that HUMANS had to write. Basically its just using human intelligence with some fast number crunching.

  65. The Arrogance of Artificial Intelligence by suchire · · Score: 1
    People need to get rid of the elitest, snobbish look on Chess programs as "not really AI". What is AI, if this is not? I've said most of what follows in a variety of posts, but I'm going to put them together into a cohesive one.

    Chess playing is a form of AI.

    People object that chess programs "just search". Well, don't humans do the same? When we have a problem, we look at all of the possibilities and evaluate what we think is the best move for us. Isn't this what Minimax is all about, to an abstracted level? So what if computers are "calculating"? We calculate too, using neurons that fire with very deterministic chain reactions of chemicals in our brains. Our minds are simply the movements of sodium and potassium ions, with the help of ATP, calcium, neurotransmitters, etc. Where is the "intelligence" in that? At what point does our parallel "data-processing" turn into subject?

    People also complain that the Chess heuristics are all programmed by humans, and therefore not really AI. What people don't realize is that we are preprogrammed, too. We have rules that guide how we work in nature. We don't have to learn how to see, how to move our hands, how to recognize faces (we can learn faces, but we have the ability to recognize faces inborn). Even the ability to speak languages is, to some extent, an inborn ability. In chess, learning is limited during the actual play of the game. You can use your mistakes in one game to improve your overall play for future games, but you don't usually apply such knowledge in the current game itself (unless you are a rank beginner and forget how the knight moves, for instance). So, computer programs are legitimized in not always including learning algorithms for current games.

    AI is simply a designation for the field of trying to model various aspects of the human mind, whether it be learning, emotions, language, game-playing, recognition, or "common sense" heuristics. Even something as simple as a Finite State Machine could be considered an AI agent; whether it is an accurate, flexible, or complex model is an entirely different issue from whether it is AI at all.

    If a computer puts up the appearence of intelligence, for all intents and purposes, it is intelligent, and if it seems dumb, it is dumb, in the context of whatever you're testing. A chess program has zilch intelligence for anything besides chess, much like a savant that can calculate primes sometimes even without the know-how of basic arithmetic. The human brain is, at the current state, too complicated to model on a holistic level. I think everyone in the AI field would agree. So, why pompously and snobbishly deride computer chess as "un-AI" while claiming that (for example) "Only Learning is AI"? If someone has Retrograde Amnesia, does that mean that the person is unintelligent? No! AI covers a vast range of sub-fields, and only one of them is AI.

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    Such irE
    1. Re:The Arrogance of Artificial Intelligence by suchire · · Score: 1

      Er....I mean.... ...only one of them is Learning.

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      Such irE
  66. Hmm... by GreyOrange · · Score: 1

    In my oppion the answer to the question proposed by this article is that a computer is supperior to a human mind like an idiot savant is supperior to and average human bieng.

    They both are able to achieve feats that are almost unheard of by average human biengs, yet for some reason they still can't see the full picture.

    Reminds me of how back in the 80's psychiatrists were asked to determine between an AI program an a Scheziphrenzic patient. It ended up that the psychiatrists couldn't deterimine between the two and the conclusion was that while a normal mind is hard to emulate, a defective mind is very easy to emulate.

    I just think the two are related. Perhaps we need more psychiatrists doing AI to get the sick computers to act normal?

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    Insert Witty Remark Here ===>____________________________
  67. opening theory advantage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Remove a chess engine's opening book and their ability to brute force fifteen moves ahead is gone.

    I wonder how chess engines would fair with Fischer Random Chess (back row pieces are shuffled allowing 960 different starting positions).