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Jazilla Milestone 1 Released
mcbridematt writes "Many of the long time Slashdot readers will remember the Jazilla project to rewrite the Mozilla browser in Java. It went into hibernation in 2000 and I took it over last August. I have completely rewrote the browser which now follows a more Mozilla-like architecture. The Result: Jazilla Milestone 1 has been released. Download it from here. No prizes for guessing that it's Alpha software." Read on below for a list of what Jazilla can do, so far.
"Significant (implemented) features include:
- chrome:// support
- JavaScript implemented for the GUI thanks to the Mozilla.org Rhino engine. HTML Scripting coming.
- GUI in part, uses XUL and W3C DOM
- Written in 100% Java
- Open Source
- Uses the NetBrowser renderer, which is actually based on Jazilla-classic work."
Once you expand and extract this puppy, just cd into the folder it made and, assuming Java is properly installed on your machine, you need only run:
Good luck, and enjoy! The browser's still lacking in many obvious areas, but it does work on a lot of sites. Too cool -- props for all the hard wo\ rk. :-)
I used to dislike Java, but now I'm a convert. Virtual machines are so obviously cool... I need to download this and give it a spin.
The question had to be asked
Other than being Java-based, what's the point of this web browser?
Does the browser call a new java runtime layer, so it's a java layer running a web browser running a java layer, or does the original java layer detect the attempt to run Java and intercept to run it itself?
What happens if I run the java web browser in a web browser?
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
dont get me wrong i think its an interresting project but why write in Java a software that is already available on a huge variety of platforms (its mainly the advantage of writing java apps).
also Mozilla is lacking a bit of speed im sure you wont help in java.....
Overuse of the Pumping Lemma causes blindness
It seems to not work with OS X using instructions above, perhaps something else has to be done.
Modular Redundancy--Because 4 out of 5 Nodes agree
I'm waiting for fuckzilla, written in brainfuck!
Combine the speed and java with the speed of Mozilla.... I bet you can reboot into windows, run IE, and get 3 first posts before Jazilla starts up.
Hee. I told him it would get him laid, then forgot to mention it was a joke. A year and a half later, it was just too funny not to let him keep running with it. Shh! My bad!
mozilla is slow. java is slow. jazilla is slow^2
I wonder if Intel is backing this project. They desparately need a reason to sell high-end chips.
Table-ized A.I.
Does it have support for Java applets, or do you need to install the Java plugin to have applets? :P
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
Now that Mozilla is about as fast as IE, the open source community has found a way to make it as slow as the 0.8 days. Thanks, guys! This is a huge win, and may turn the tide in the browser wars!
any idea why anybody would want or need to use that?
mozilla runs on at least as many platforms as any JRE, and many more if you expect swing to work properly.
i don't get it.
Dev elpizw tipota, dev phoboumai tipota eimai lephteros http://euclidian.org
I think Mozilla is slow enough, thank you.
It allows you to close tricked-into Goatse windows before they are finished. Goatsephobia has changed they way people browse. Slow is in.
Table-ized A.I.
Great browser, but damn! I've wasted hours waiting for Mozilla menus to draw after clicking on them.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
Just plain question - what is intended usage of it?
I wonder whether the RHUG people will be able to build Jazilla using gcj and so create a native binary package. Then we could see whether it is faster or slower than Mozilla.
-- Ed Avis ed@membled.com
Sorry, but I didn't find anything for 5506-D by VA Software (not in May 1999 or any other date). I didn't bother to google for it. Are you sure your link/information is correct?
I may be being a little harsh here but what exactly is the point in this?
Java's redeeming feature is that it is a cross platform environment. Which is all well and lovely.
Everything else about Java is horrible, like speed issues etc.
This project is to "make a mozilla clone in java". So by doing this you'd assume they'd be making mozilla cross platform (because that's the only logical reason for using java)... But Mozilla is already cross platform!!! Any platform it doesn't support you shouldn't be using for browsing the web with!
And anyways, you still need java to be installed to run it... Install java for a crappy browser or install Mozilla? I know which I'd prefer to do.
Jezz
Well, obviously.
Slashdot gives so much freakin' free publicity to Microsoft, that it's only obvious that there must be some ties. I mean, really, Slashdot's tagline is "News for Nerds. Stuff that matters." If Slashdot editors feel a primary interest of nerds is Linux/BSD/Unix related, well, fine, there's an argument for that. But if what Slashdot really wants to do is online advocacy--and that is what it really is all about--then some of the best work they could do would be just to ignore Microsoft completely. As it is, if an employee at Microsoft has a problem with indigestion, Slashdot posts a story: "MICROSOFT EMPLOYEE PURCHASES ANTACID--SUN RESPONDS BY INVESTING IN PIZZA HUT".
What's most interesting is how so many little Slashdot geeks read this stuff and then take action, DDOSing SCO's servers, signing people up for massive snailspam attacks. They're like a little pocket protector mob, asserting all the kinds of bullying and enforcing of their views on the world that happened to them in high school--and middle school--and elementary school.
So yes, Slashdot is Microsoft's bitch. But what is more interesting to me, is how many Slashdot readers are, by proxy, also Microsoft's bitches, as they loudly gather and proclaim otherwise. Quick! Let's all go read what Microsoft did now!
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
Ok grandpa it might be time to upgrade your 386sx to some more modern processor. You will be shocked at how much faster late 90's technology is, and if you want to live on the edge you might even try some system built in the last few years. You will find that any of those run Mozilla and or Java great. Oh yeah, while you are at it you will find that 16MB of RAM won't cut it anymore, you should probably get around 512MB. The good news is that you can get a system like that for under a grand. I do realize that living on social security makes it tough to buy a new system every 20 or so years, but just stop buying so much crap from those late night tv ads, and you should have enough saved up in no time.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
i have downloaded your browser. loaded it in blackdown 1.4.1. typed in "http://slashdot.org/" at the address bar.. what should i see:
black screen, with OSDN in top left corner
Oh well, interesting project (i guess) - try harder
Before adopting WHATWG, read the moonlight.NET EULA [http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx]
There's only one thing i wanna know: Why... Oh why, for god's sake.
we discovered a new way to think.
I guess this means I can run a web browser in a web browser now. :)
Jizilla
Their homepage claims xhtml 1.0 strict complicance.. yet consulting validator.w3.org ...
This page is not Valid XHTML 1.0 Strict!
see for yourself
Any pedant points going around?
Since half the comments so far seem to be "What is the point" I'll offer one justification.
There is still a serious lack of a good modern HTML browser for embeding in java applications. Swing provides an EditorKit which handles HTML3 reasonable well, but most of the other quality offerings are non free.
Major Java IDEs (Eclipse, NetBeans) have projects to implement something like this. Many other Java applications could potentially benefit. It's a good idea.
The Java-based browser concept worked really well for Sun Microsystems' HotJava browser so I believe Jazilla will be a phenomenal success as well. Go Jazilla team!
Why do geeks do anything?
BECAUSE THEY CAN!!
I just heard some sad news on talk radio - java browser Jazilla was found dead in at his sourceforge page this morning. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to anti open source trolls. Truly an browser icon.
Amaya is written in C. Perhaps you were thinking of Sun's HotJava?
Chu vi parolas Vikipedion?
might be old version
I mean they do have libpr0n :)
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Some of us prefer not to upgrade our computer every fucking month because all of a sudden the idiots at Microsoft/Apple/Netscape decide that our computing experience is incomplete without shiny new throbbing widgets. Even when I'm on a screaming fast computer, I throttle down every single bit of eye candy. Result: I can use my computer for actual work. Even so, I find that either Mozilla (on Linux) or IE (on XP) is entirely capable of reducing a Pentium 4 with plenty of memory into a quivering heap of dung.
Example: I'm often forced to use Microsoft Word. However, I have yet to utilize any feature that is not present in Word 5.1a, which runs quite happily on my stone-age PowerBook. Neither do any of my coworkers or collaborators, apparently; most of them would be served just as well by Emacs or Vi. That doesn't stop them from mailing me Word 2000 documents (nor does the fact that I run Unix pretty much everywhere). Result: I can't use my office computer or my Mac, and I have to walk down the hall to use one of the shared PCs. This is progress?
In short: fuck you. Fuuuuuuuuuuck you.
Works and looks great for me screenshot.
Doesn't take care of CSS, but hey I like to have another choice. Rigth?!
I was using the same command to start it:
java org/jxul/xulrunner/Main &
>> Had I been going to bed earlier every night? Have I been sleeping later? Has Tyler been in charge longer and l
But wouldn't the second and third be second and third posts?
This means that when you go to the store to buy an application, you don't buy the "Mac version" or the "Microsoft Windows version." You buy the "Java technology version." And as long as you have the Java Virtual Machine--which is free, and available from a large number of vendors--you can buy the program without having to worry whether it's going to run on your particular computer.
Java is too damn slow and bloated to be good for anything.
Get over the "java is slow" conception already.. -- oh wait "Anonymous Coward", i guess that says it all.
The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese!
I think this might be a really cool idea if someone could do something like this. Say for example someone is in a really restrictive corporate or government environment which only allows HTTP and HTTPS out, and no SSH or anything like that. Now say for example you have Webmin installed on your home computer set to port 443. You use your work web browser to view your home's Webmin server inside SSL, and then if Jazilla were made into an applet and put inside a Webmin module that sends all of its information through the Webmin SSL encrypted connection, similar to the way Shell-in-a-Box does, one could use a really nice browser to surf in complete privacy.
Well, it's just a thought anyway.
next... a browser made entirely of toenail clippings!
- C++ Troll
I tried it, suprisingly alot faster than I thought it would be. Granted there is many missing features that may add more bloat later, but this thing looks like it will have great potential for embedded devices.
Hmmm..think It's about time to start up "funzilla", a mozilla browser ported to a functional language like Concurrent ML. Who's with me?
"Recursive bipartite matching"- try it!
masochism?
- C++ Troll
Slashdot posts a story: "microsoft employee purchases antacid--sun responds by investing in pizza hut".
hehehehehe
Actually I am looign forward to trying this browser out..
given the nice way aps such as LimeWire run and that you rarely notice that they are running under java.. this may also be agood prove of that as well.
Now if we coul donly free java from the cluches of Mordor(SUN)....
Don't Tread on OpenSource
its useless, get over it.
Imagine this uncommon but very possible setup.
You are working on a weekend all by yourself, you get the average of one phone call every 3 hours and nobody EVER comes into the office on weekends but you, the poor tech support guy.
You work for a small company that uses a Netware 5 file server for the firewall. (Remember, Netware 5 is Java based)
You don't have admin access.
The server doesn't have the console locked.
The server IS the firewall, and therefore can be outside of it.
You REALLY want to get your dose of porn, which the firewall wont let you do.
The firewall is unlocked........
Yep, time to load up a JAVA browser on the file server for your own porn surfing pleasure.
The preceding post was not a Slashvertisement.
there will be no problems getting the java plugin to work...right?
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
I find this line of reasoning a bit pathetic.
Just because we have more CPU power do you think that justifies wasting this power? I guess that Java is for people that already have computers more powerful than they can handle? Personally, I'd rather even give my cycles to SETI@HOME than give them to some VM.
And Java is still slow. Or Swing, or whichever excuse... perhaps it's slow because my VM is optimizing my code behind the scenes.
You've lowered your standards for performance, that's the whole story. Your reason is neither good nor bad nor compelling to someone that still values performance.
These Java processes take 15 meg and up on solaris, at least. They half the power of my machine, they half it's value. I need two machines instead of one. Is that good? Why the hell should I care if they run just as well as old applications on old machines? Why in the hell would I be happy about that... you think I'm nostalgic or something?
-pyrrho
Why ? I can only guess this guy or group wants some KUDOS . So I give you some props. Good job. But i wont be using it since Firebird runs fine . Maybe could be used for Cellphones or embedded ?
you should pay a visit to
m l )
.84 secs per tx but still)
http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno
It's a virtualised machine that runs hosted on Windows, Lunix & FreeBSD (& maybe others) and also runs native on some hardware (such as my IPAQ)
It has some really neat features, many borrowed from plan9.
Version 3 and below is not totally open (the source is $100).
The next version is considering making changes (see http://www.vitanuova.com/inferno/4thedoverview.ht
Even if you never downlaod it, it's still worth reading the documentation.
Inferno follows the concept that threads are cheap (as an experiment someone recently had 90,000 concurrent threads passing a message from one to the other (admitedly it took
You'll wonder why anybody uses Java at all.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Wow...PL/1. Brings me back to my college days at MIT, studying PL/1, FORTRAN, and LISP(!), and playing Zork on the old PDP machines in the AI labs.
"We make our world significant by the courage of our questions and by the depth of our answers." Carl Sagan
I guess there's probably no option to turn off Java support.
Word 5.1 is a bloated piece of shit that was the beginning of long slide towards drooler features. Word 4 is where it's at, bitch.
"You'll wonder why anybody uses Java at all."
Yes I sometimes wonder.
There is possibly one good reason; on a couple of occasions i've had a need for a browser that I could embed in a Java application, with better HTML support than version 3. This could fit the bill ( if it's anywhere near small enough, small not being something mozilla is renowned for )
but i am waiting for the Jizzilla fork.
Troll signs (à la "worm signs" in Dune):
- dogmatic offensive pseudotruths (1st line);
- meaningless insult, liberally sprinkled with swear words (2nd line);
- main troll bait, hoping that mozilla users will feed him (3rd line);
- deadbrain conclusion (4th line).
Leave him alone and do not feed him, please.
I believe that if people want to experiment, they should.
Thufir Hawat
Part-time Mentat
. But i wont be using it since Firebird runs fine
It can't hurt to have a web browser besides you database.
I thought the thing was that people shouldn't buy software. The whole FSF theory is programmers need to live in their parents basement and write code for free. It's only moral to charge the people that can't figure out how to download, build, install, configure, troubleshoot , etc. You also aren't allowed to charge enough to make a living or help people that aren't truely worthly, like WebTV users.
Why do we care? I can think of several reasons why we wouldn't.
1) anything that is capable of running a browser that weighs in like mozilla (or IE, opera, etc) already can run mozilla natively.
2) Java will always be slower than a native, non-interpreted language, even if you compile it into a binary.
3) When mozilla is at 1.4 (or so), and this is just on the first alpha, what practicality is there in duplicating efforts to create the exact same thing, when there's such a gap between the two efforts? It's like making cement from diamond dust - sure, but why, when lime is better for the job all around, and outperforms to boot?
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Use the right tool for the right job.
Java can be very productive (as a lot of the optimizing is done behind your back)
Also, it encourages you to code for maintainability.
The VM will take care of optimizing your code (and yes they get better at it all the time)
I supose just because all that power is available will give developers more choice to work the language they like or *fear* might even be the right job for the task
Java is not only a language for writing pretty
applets (which aren't the same as full applications
which run from the CLI) or just for platform independence. It is a language which has many good security features, makes coding things such as networking much easier, has a vast amount of existing code and is a language which is just generally safer to program in and more object-oriented. If there weren't other benefits to coding Java programs, why would compilers such as GCJ exist for compiling Java programs to native code? Also, the speed problems with Java are now far less as compiling on demand becomes more common in Java runtimes. Whereas a C program can cause a segfault in about five lines, major problems with Java are more likely to be due to the runtime, which can even be eliminated. Also, there is no reason that just because Mozilla is slow (mainly because the code has to do a lot of layering to make the platform-independence work) doesn't mean that a port has to be -- a port would take substantial work and even though the ideas are the same, the finished product won't include the same code and so doesn't have to be as slow!!!
That's why it's called alpha. .BILL-GATES..er..I mean MONO is pre-alpha.
You know, the way
Anyway, you ain't the real Miguel, you's just a troll..
Does anybody know if there isn't already a database name JFirebird??? Cause if nobody bothered to check it out,I should say there's another lawsuit coming pretty soon....;o)
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
Is anyone here familiar with the MPL enough to give a run-down on how well this will play with Java? Given the fact that Java and the classlibs (as far as I know) are closed-source, does the MPL have any GPL-like clauses about linking to closed-source libraries?
While I'm at it, would it be possible for Sun to contribute a few engineers and integrate this into the Java class libraries? The current HTML component...well...it renders links, I guess, but it would be *great* to have a more capable rendering library.
You know, I don't know this guy, or have any mod points, but its really sad this was modded a troll as it obviously isn't. Maybe off topic, but in that case its just as off topic as the post he's replying to. I can tell you if this comes up in meta mod its getting an Unfair. BTW: the_gnat, you'd be less likely to get modded down on stuff like this if you avoided cursing. Just a tip.
OK, could someone explain to me why using XUL to implement the GUI isn't just a way of adding a useless extra layer of bloat? It seems like it provides you flexibility, but honestly I can't think of why I'd want the flexibility to run a browser within a browser. I just want to browse web pages, and that's all. It seems like web browsers lost sight of that as a goal long ago...
If you really felt this way, you'd be running nothing but hand-optimized assembly language programs in batch mode. No GUIs, not even a CLI.
Something tells me you're not doing that, though.
What's needed in this world isn't another clone of *zilla written in the language du jour. The problem with anything written with the Mozilla (or Gecko engine) is speed: Why should it take more than a few fractions of a second to render HTML?
/. and Yahoo just fine.
And yes, it's been done already: Dillo is a blindingly-fast HTML engine/browser that runs from a binary less than 300Kb. No, it doesn't support frames, nor Javascript, nor any of the other kitchen-sink items all other browsers strive to be. Instead, Dillo sports a plug-in interface (open-source, naturally) that allows for all of this to happen, if the user wants it to happen.
So here's my suggestion: Take a cue from Dillo and go for speed, not for bloat.
Oh, and I should add that Dillo renders
It sucks. Next!!!
Ok it was kinda a joke but I will address it more seriously this time.
1. Java is slow. This was true in 1.0 release of Java, but with todays JIT's the speed difference is small. I can point you to numerous sites, but at the end of the day it comes down to good coders. Your experience must be with some bad coders.
2. SWING is slow. This again use to be true with 1.18 + SWING and 1.2x JVM's the 1.3 and 1.4 have increased SWINGS speed considerably.
3. JAVA takes up too much memory. Yes it is true that the base JVM can take around 5-16MB of RAM per JVM instance. But with todays systems, on a lot of applications that isn't too bad. Now the core issue is that it takes up that amount for EVERY JVM that is used. So to your point: If I launch a Java calculator program, and then launch a Java notepad, I will have lost around 10-32MB of RAM in just JVM's. This is currently true, however it is being addressed and should be solved with the 1.5 release. Once this is done, then it would be possible to have ONE JVM running on the system for all Java applications. The JVM could launch at startup and then even the inital load times would be greatly reduced. I believe that this is the way Apple is handling Java (Can't confirm it though).
So, when this issue is resolved, running Java on a machine could mean only giving up a maximum amount of 16MB of RAM for the JVM and the rest for the application. To be honest that is what most Java programs are doing today. Most run as an application server and run Servlets and JSP's all day long.
Another poster mentioned that you use the correct tool for the job. I agree, but I will add that the issues for not using Java for speed has and is going away. The reasons for not using it for memory are going away on most computers.
We do agree on one point. Most people do have computer processors far greater than they need.
Lastly, if you are having so many issues running Java apps on your system you should look at newer JVM's. They make a huge difference.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
Maybe I want to write an application in Java that has a more dynamic user interface. Swing makes things like this hard. What if you could make a great GUI in seconds in Java using dynamically generated XUL with call outs to Java instead of broken impared JS.
o neEditor", XUL.TEXT);
:) I'm impressed with the speed. Maybe it will send some of those idiot trolls about Java being slow back to the drawing board so they can complain about something else for a while when it gets done.
I'm all for duct taping a rendering engine on the front of real Java just because I don't like to deal with any of the popular layout managers for swing. Ideally, I would have my own Java widgets (because swing gets extendible widgets right like no other GUI API anywhere) that were rendered in a sane fasion (plus the native XUL widgets for when you don't need to extend them).
Swing layout is one of the reasons Java GUIs seam to be broken. If you resize a window, you get a lot of grey boxes. Sure, Mozilla could use some double buffering on their resizing, but it doesn't leave me with a gray screen instead of seeing how the components will look after resizing.
It would be even better if you could extend the XUL language in some manner with custom widgets.
For example:
XUL.registerComponent(MyPhoneEditor,"ph
These are all the more reasons why we need a good renderer in Java.
On a side note:
Anyone notice that with Java 1.4.2, jazilla starts faster than mozilla? A little over a second for me. It just won't render any web-site properly
Karma Clown
that would be sweet we could have Jazilla but writen in a language that is much faster!
The noun is 'half'; the verb is 'halve'.
I can see the desire to have a 100% Java browser (see it, not understand it), but why copy Mozilla? Or more accurately, why copy the much less vital parts of Mozilla? Why XUL? Why not Gecko?
:)
I'm asking, not trolling.
AC because I forgot my password
No way man Word Perfect 5.1 for Dos all the Way. All you need is an 8088 with a CGA graphics card, Hit F11 to reveal codes and look all 31337, and you can even render what the printed output will look like on your screen. All on an 8088 with 640k of Ram. Damn I wish they would release the source code for it. I'd start porting it to linux soon as I could CVS it.
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
You know, I don't know this guy, or have any mod points, but its really sad this was modded a troll as it obviously isn't. Maybe off topic, but in that case its just as off topic as the post he's replying to. I can tell you if this comes up in meta mod its getting an Unfair.
Thanks, dude. The moderators can eat me.
BTW: the_gnat, you'd be less likely to get modded down on stuff like this if you avoided cursing. Just a tip.
Point taken, but I spend too much time dealing with this sort of nonsense at work. Besides, the idiot I was replying to managed to be far more offensive without swearing at all (or is that your point?).
People who think the answer to every problem is to buy a new computer should stick to non-technical jobs so they can't make life miserable for those of us who have to deal with the consequences of their stupidity.
Yea upgrade your hardware so that the current generation of crap programmers can continue to write sloppy, bloated, unoptimized code.
I know it's not nice to bash open source projects that people pour a lot of hours into, but I think that for something like a web browser, their overly complex UI design eats way too many cycles. It actually feels heavy as it chugs through pages. I may be a sarcastic asshole sometimes, but I'm having a hard time seeing how I'm a troll and that response is any better.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
Seriosuly. Today most of people (at least what I can see in North America) have already got home office desktop PCs power enough to run most of applications they need. Typically it's 500Mhz - 1GHz CPU with 256-512 MB RAM (Geeks! your super PCs are not in count here as you are a minority of the PC user base!). But for PC vendors it's obsolete - they want to sell more and more power PCs in order to sqeez more and more money from users. So, how to force customers to upgrade?
There several answers: CPU-expensive UI candies of win2k and XP, XML with SOAP (read .Net) where it's not needed, and of course Java.
First Java has been expanded on the server market, where M$ is weak. It's very well known: most of Java based server installations do what was easy to program and cheap to run using Apache/CGI/PHP/Perl/Python. Now they try again desktop applications. They have failed with SWING plugins: Macromedia Flash is way lighter. And they didn't have any chances unless users realized that Windows is not the only liable platform. So, here are coming again: Java based GUI-monsters.
Less is more !
So who is going to port this to SWT? I really need a browser written in a cross-platform language that depends on platform-specific libraries.
Hmm, I had already forgotten that there was a database with the same name.
Someone is wrong on the Internet!
The stock layout managers suck ass, but there are better ones out there. If you're doing GUIs in Swing, check out TableLayout, HIGLayout, FlexGridLayout. These are all free and Free. There are probably other ones out there too.
I've been using TableLayout and although there are some little things I don't like about it, it does let me code Swing GUIs without the pain associated with the stock layout managers. Haven't tried the other two yet but they look interesting.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
You can always run it under dosbox or dosemu, though.
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
I'm not understanding - how can this be Mozilla or even a Mozilla-clone, if it's not using the Gecko renderer? I mean, kudos and all for doing it, but Gecko is the key to Mozilla. Everything else is eye-candy.
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
Your bad?
As a foreigner, may I ask, WHAT EXACTLY THE FUCK DOES THAT MEAN???!?????!!!!!!!!!!
Whatever it means, it sounds mighty UNcool brother.
One love.
Given the Zaurus's Java Suport with some mods this would be a great application for it.
In fact I am posting this from Dillo.
Links 2 is rather impressive as well, in that is handles Javascript now, and runs under DirectFB.
My system is a P166 laptop w/ 80MB of RAM. This is low-end by today's standards, and it will run Mozilla, but for 90% of my browsing Dillo is more than adequate.
It may be true that people now have much faster machines, but there is just no excuse, for, say, the performance of Mozilla with text-boxes and the Mail composer.
It is just unbelievably slow, not really slow, not goddamn slow, but really, truly, unbelievably slow.
How do you spend so many years writing an app and end up with performance like this?
I totally agree and think that Dillo has a bright future, If it runs this well on a P166 I am quite keen to use it when I get something faster.
You might also want to check out Links 2, it does graphics, and Javascript now, and runs under DirectFB too which is kind of neat..
been there, done that. It's called "galeon"
Is the next step to rewrite Mozilla in .NET?
"...I have completely rewrote..."
???
How about "I have completely rewritten," or more concisely "I rewrote."
At least he's got a compiler to catch his syntactic code errors.
That's why they're moving to the Firebird (aka Phoenix) base after the next release - the UI code in it is hugely faster.
Go to http://mozilla.org/projects/firebird and download either the latest release, or the latest nightly if you don't believe me.
considere la mala licencia con KDE
todos sus tableros del escritorio son ahora pertenecen a mí
amor, paz, esperanza, muelle
Saludos
miguel
Before adopting WHATWG, read the moonlight.NET EULA [http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/moonlight.mspx]
What we really need is for Mozilla to be bundled into Java! Think about it... Mozilla binaries already exist for all of major platforms on which Java runs. All that's needed is a Java wrapper for it and presto, reliable, native-optimized browsing (and more) anywhere you've got a JVM.
It is fast and is designed to run on constrained devices. Channing
Once this is done, then it would be possible to have ONE JVM running on the system for all Java applications. The JVM could launch at startup and then even the inital load times would be greatly reduced. I believe that this is the way Apple is handling Java (Can't confirm it though).
So, when this issue is resolved, running Java on a machine could mean only giving up a maximum amount of 16MB of RAM for the JVM and the rest for the application. To be honest that is what most Java programs are doing today
After more than 10 years of getting computer users to OSes that separate and protect applications and processes, now we are going back to the old monolithic model, so that one bad JAVA app can compromise all other JAVA apps within the JVM.
Give me a break guys... This is not the direction a platform or programming model should be pushing developers just because Sun cannot get performance to a reasonable level.
Heck even look at VB and its runtime engine, it even consumes less memory and runs as an isolated process. (And VB has tons of stuff in it that weighs it down considerably.)
Come on Sun, give us what you promised six years ago. Quit wasting time suing companies and actually put some work into development.
No wonder that even the Server developers at Sun have been complaining about JAVA and its performance on their own OSes.
You are missing the point. Java programs waste these resources with nothing to show for it.
Your point about GUIs is a little dumb, so I'll just say: Yes, I would run nothing but hand-optimized assembly language programs if they were available and were in all other aspects indistinguishable from other programs. Can you give me a good reason why I shouldn't?
Java seems like a step backwards in all areas except portability.
Interesting stuff. Thanks for the link. This might be grounds for renewed faith.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
Its a very interesting idea, I will admit. But, it would be much better written in a language like Lisp, OCaml or alot of cooler (and muuuuccch faster) functional languages, if the coder wants to spend enormous amounts of their free time.
That way it won't be slower than Mozilla already is. Java has improved speed-wise but I just don't think it will ever get past the problems with a vm. Aside from that (compiled languages, yes including C++) and also reincarnations of ml and lisp will be much faster and does everything much better than java does. True, it won't be as portable as java, but probably much easier to maintain, [in a functional language] and much faster.
I don't mean to troll here, but really Java far gets more credit than it deserves. Yes, its improving, but Processing power is a terrible thing to waste.
As long as geeks (and other desperate guys) keep thinking of getting laid as the prime goal of a relationship, they'll fail anywhere but in a bar. The first girl I got anywhere with, things began not as me horny and lonely, but simply as me taking refuge in an interesting conversation from a lot of other females I'd pissed off. Don't seek sex.. seek women.
Reality is indistinguishable from any sufficiently advanced fantasy.
SourceForge's download counters claim that Jazilla M1 has been downloaded zero times. Looks like either no-one's actually bothered to download the thing at all, or the mighty SourceForge has failed us. Ho hum...
If you have a java application, it might be useful to have built in browsing capabilities. Like for displaying help, web-mail, web based forums. Your java application would no longer have to be fully client based or fully web-based. I can think of a million uses for this...
If you need a bzip decompresser, here's a free one www.davidcampaign.net/dczip.html
I wonder if you could run Jazilla as an applet inside a web browser?
Sure beats running Internet Explorer.
Tired of FB/Google censorship? Visit UNCENSORED!
This will be very useful for any client side Java projects that need a browser component. Unfortunately it looks like it needs a lot of work. It's pretty sad when every website I tried didn't even come close to rendering properly. I'll look forward to future releases however.
plz advise further, Mr. Wizard!
By what do you mean "High Performance"?
Do you mean doing a video game in SWING? That would be weird, I would look at something like Java3d or even the 2d stuff, but SWING is mostly used for client side form stuff (buttons, textfields, tables ect).
Also realize that we are not talking about unaccaptable levels of performance to a screaming eagle here.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
Surely you wouldn't say this if you created a BlahBlah app and M$ comes along w. a BlahBlat! implementation?
Please fuck off.
"My bad" is a joke they won't teach you in your elementary English class. I'm a "foreigner" (not a US citizen) too, but I've worked out my communication skills enough to realise that when you see something you don't understand, the shortcoming is very probably on your part... How can you come to a place like this and assume that people are dumber than you (at your best)? Fucking moron.
As to your question, "my bad" means "my mistake". There.
How said anything about one bad Java App taking down the rest of them? By no means did I say that someone could do something like:
System.exit(1) and take down every running application...
Also understand that this is being developed by multiple people/vendors NOT SUN. It is in their community process and I hope that Apple is helping with this. I would say that most of the work being done on Java is not from Sun, but IBM. (Just my observation). However, Sun has final say (kinda like some kernel guy...)
You say that VB uses a smaller runtime engine than Java.... SHOCKER!!! How much of it is built in to Windows that it doesn't need to load??? How well does that VB app port to any other platform?
You mention that Sun's server developers complain about Java. You are correct, but not for the reason you mention. They complained about the speed of their JVM to that of the Windows JVM. Sun in it's wisdom decided that to make Java more successful, it needed to make sure that the JVM for Windows ran great. They focused so much attention to it that the one for Solaris suffered. That isn't the case anymore. Now does that mean that every developer in Sun loves Java????? NOPE! Every large company has sharp people who disagree on stuff. I bet you will find people in Microsoft who think Linux rocks and WindowsXp isn't that great.
Another point you made is you want Sun to give the developers what they promised six years ago. I for the life of me can't think of anything they promised except a write once run anywhere thing. I would say that they have 'mostly' achieved that goal. I run Java stuff on NetWare, Windows, Linux, Solaris, AIX and various phones and palm/pocket pc systems. Other than the small devices, no modifications of code have been necessary!
If you give me a great IDE in Java and it runs 10% slower because of Java, I generally don't care. i.e. Oracle Jdeveloper 9i, is the example. I now have an IDE that runs acceptable on most platforms!
The only real problem with Java is that so many kids are taking it today (I have heard it is being taught in more colleges than English), and those kids are being put in to positions they are not ready for (Bad economy, that wants cheaper labor). That coupled with the fact that it is a relatively new language screams for performance issues. This isn't the languages fault.
If you remember when C was first around, just to write a very simple program almost always took 5k (we laugh at that now), but I remember developers (myself included) who thought "What a piece of crap!! I can do that in Assembler in 300 bites and it's startup time is way faster!
What percentage of code is done in Assembler nowdays? Heck the same could be said about COBOl.
The more I learn about science, the more my faith in God increases.
I wrote a java web browser in about 3 weeks of classtime back in high school that rendered html as good as that does, at least on the sites I checked (google.com and mozilla.org).
Not to sound like I'm complaining. It's free afterall. And it's nice to see they haven't abandoned the project.
1. bz2? Please, use a halfway normal archive format (.zip or .tar.Z or .tar.gz)
2. make? Why are you using this old fossil? I and every other java programmer I know uses ant.
Even so, I find that either Mozilla (on Linux) or IE (on XP) is entirely capable of reducing a Pentium 4 with plenty of memory into a quivering heap of dung.
You know that you can disable JavaScript window pop-ups from the Mozilla control panel? That way when you're using your dad's PC in his study (oops...I mean your "coworkers' PC" in their "offices") to surf for amputee fetish porn, your poor little P4 PC won't be brought to its knees with 187 simultaneous pop-up browser windows offering cheap Viagra and kiddie porn. Now it's time for you to fuck off. Go on...fuck off. Good boy.
You ask why?
It reminds me of when we did the first Virtual PC for Mac. When we demo'd it at trade shows, about one out of every 20 people who stepped to ask about it asked if they could run Executor [a Mac emulator of sorts] within Virtual PC, and then Virtual PC in that, and then...
It was an interesting question the first time, to think about. And it was interesting to see customers ask about it. About the fifth time, it got really tiresome.
Personally, I think a browser written entirely in Java is a pretty cool accomplishment, especially when it's not Sun doing it, but just someone with a LOT of spare time. Useful, no. Cool, yes.
I think people deriding Jazilla because they think it's not terribly useful, or because they don't think it's something anyone would pay for, miss the point. It's like asking why would you climb a mountain? I mean, c'mon. Why would you build a device that can levitate a cow? #1 reason: so you can say to your friend: "Dude! Look at this! I built a device that can levitate a cow!"
And besides, the browser world is filled with this sort of stuff. In the wake of Safari, why is there continuing work on MacNetscape or MacIE, which only cost their companies money? Hell, why did Microsoft *ever* work on MacIE? You just have to expect things to happen in the world of browsers that can't be explained in logical terms.
jbx
ps I can hear it already "Dude, like we ran Virtual PC on a Mac, and then we ran Virtual PC for Windows inside that, and then we ran a Java Virtual Machine for that, and then we ran this new browser inside that, and then we ran an Apple ][ emulator that somebody wrote in JavaScript, and like, dude, it's like sooooooo slow!" I mean, when someone says that to you, *what*do*you*say*?
pps No! You can't scream out "Get a life!" It's a trade show! He might buy a copy!
ppps And I'm sick and tired of "Dude, like maybe the reason Neo can stop the sentinels is that they think they're out of the Matrix, but the Matrix is in another, bigger Matrix. And maybe *that* Matrix is in another Matrix. And..."
(sig) The last bug isn't fixed until the last user is dead. (/sig)
Can it run java applets? Because phoenix won't for me.
It appears not to support scrolling. And the /. layout is completly messed up. Cool idea for embedded stuff, though. i'll still stick with phoenix for now.
Here's further proof that Java is best suited for applets and all attempts to kludge it into a general purpose tool for developing applications is appealing to academics, introverts and the type of people who like to compile all the software that they use. Command Line arguments?! Double-click on the Mozilla icon, for God's sake!
I for the life of me can't think of anything they promised except a write once run anywhere thing. I would say that they have 'mostly' achieved that goal. I run Java stuff on NetWare, Windows, Linux, Solaris, AIX and various phones and palm/pocket pc systems
.NET web services or ported to the requesting OS. As arrogant as Microsoft can be, at least they were willing to give away C# technology and concepts to a standards body so anyone, anywhere could use it.
For the most part I do agree with you; however the statement above is stretching reality just a bit. The write once, run anywhere simply is not as ready for prime time as people want to make it sound. Because, it simply doesn't always run everywhere, and on some platforms the performance is atrocious.
Additionally, Sun promised a more robust environment, and even with the upcoming announcements in place, it still won't be there.
I would rather commit to a real language that can easily port and run on 99.9% of the OSes out there, than put any more resources in to JAVA. As screwed up as Microsoft can be, C# which is actually an 'open' standard that Microsoft 'doesn't have the final say on' is a better place to look for JAVA like development, even if the apps have to be implemented in
Sun is so determined to be the God of JAVA, their arrogance will kill it. They would have been better off to let it become a standard by opening it up as well. A lot of posts here are so afraid of putting all their eggs in Microsoft's basket, but yet with JAVA, Sun is the only basket. If Sun moves in another direction, JAVA developers are at their mercy and will be until the end of time. At least with C#, now that it is an open standard, even if Microsoft abandons it or screws up their version of it, we can choose from other vendors like Borland for development and not be dependant on one company.
As for the VB code utilizing the GUI API calls of Windows, yes it does, but if it was put on any other GUI OS, it would use the GUI API calls of the OS just the same. There still would not be the overhead that there is with JAVA.
Sun is trying to reinvent too much to achieve their cross platform compatibility, when in fact they could be leveraging what IS consistent among the modern OSes and off loading a lot of what JAVA is now doing itself. This is major waste of CPU and memory when it is normally sitting upon an OS that provides basic GUI features that can be called. And if the underlying GUI doesn't support the calls, then and only then implement them.
If you really take a look at JAVA, they (Sun) are trying to build an OS foundation for a development language, instead of making a development language that would universally sit on 99% of all OSes. This is completely backwards and if you look at JAVA down the long road, the intent is to virtually kill ALL OSes and move the world to JAVA.
JAVA is so against the Open Source movement and freedom of OSes that everyone here seems to support, it shocks me to see developers pushing the open movement and yet also being JAVA advocates.
Everyone just has to look a bit in the future to see that if Sun truly does achieve their goals, all OSes and the variety of architectures and competition in OSes will be lost. Write for JAVA now and you are really writing for a JAVA OS model. This is totally against what the open source community stands for, and ironically, is also totally against what even Microsoft stands for.
I will not make Sun the next software God that I have to bow to for crumbs. Just like everyone now is running around trying to get crumbs to get their JAVA creations to run right on even three of basic main OSes (OSX, Linux, and Windows), and even getting it to run on just these three is still a challenge.
I once believed in what JAVA promised, but after watching where they have tried to take it, I totally disagree with their ideology, JAVA is not the answer anyone is really looking for if they look at the big picture.
What is this "Assembler" language you speak of?
Is it related to "Compiler" or "Interpreter"?
As long as geeks (and other desperate guys) keep thinking of getting laid as the prime goal of a relationship, they'll fail anywhere but in a bar. The first girl I got anywhere with, things began not as me horny and lonely, but simply as me taking refuge in an interesting conversation from a lot of other females I'd pissed off. Don't seek sex.. seek women.
:(
You sound like you're not getting laid enough.
People who think the answer to every problem is to buy a new computer should stick to non-technical jobs so they can't make life miserable for those of us who have to deal with the consequences of their stupidity.
Amen! And the people who are struggling to "change everything" (open source people) aren't trying to make anything faster, that's for fucking sure. Mozilla is the slowest piece of shit I've ever seen.
I can use a third party popup management tool for IE (Popupcop) which is more flexible than anything in Mozilla.. and even while running that plus IE, it will still be much faster than Mozilla alone. Oh well.. you can lead a horse to water, but you may have to severely beat him before he'll drink.
the differences:
the C++ compiler really is as good as most people at assembly, but VMs are only promised to be as efficient as compiled languages.
the CLI and GUI interfaces actually introduce a new paradigm for a program that itself makes the program capable of some new ability. Slow imperative languages offer little that you cannot obtain with fast imperative languages.
Also, I write in slow languages all the time. I'm not a speed freak. I'm just tired of the argument that faster machines mean slower software is a non-issue. That's no argument at all. Slower is slower, bloated is bloated, it counts against you. If you want to say it's only one set of factors... of course I agree, but be specific about the other factor you're trying to obtain.
You can't call it a general purpose solution; with baggage like that you have to justify it. I'm not buying the more rapid development argument either for any scripting language. Any speed gained in creation is lost in debugging. Other speedups are just familiarity with the correct libraries. To get better productivity you have to leave imperative languages, because that's where the real woes in developmental struggles are. imnsho, of course.
PS: I'm not saying I intend to leave the imperative languages, but it's clear that CASE addicted people begging to be let out from underneath the hood clearly need development models of their own (indoubtably built using imperative languages). I'm fond of citing Zope at the moment, which has an interesting mix, going from Products you simply drop in and use (changing art, or title type parameters), a template language, and then a relatively a smooth transition to the underlying python, allowing full access to an OO language.
By the way, this is a good example of why you would use a VM based language, use of this in Zope allows all the levels to exist in the same namespace (e.g. python code fragments in template language expressions).
-pyrrho
well, regarding joking, I got the joke, and frankly, your little rant was merely an opportunity for my own, because we have both heard these things that set us off before.
As far as Java getting better. I'm open minded. The day it really performs better, I'm admitting it.
Turning to good programmers. The point is to compare like to like. Average programmer to average programmer. The Average programmer makes much faster code in C++, and can be instructed to use safe idioms to address some of the problems average programmers supposedly have with memory management issues. Good java programmers might make more repsonsive GUIs, good C++ programmers make particle simulations happen. That goodness gets more effect.
In fact, comparing good programmer to good programmers is my whole point with this efficiency question. A good programmer has no trouble mastering a compiled language, and is just as fast. I'm just feeling like I'm getting too much marketing hype in, where is the beef, as the old lady asked. Ok so there is a wide library of calls, documented in a central place. Well, there is a huge array of C++ libraries and tools too. And most of what Java offers is stuff Sun has provided VIA Java. Sun could have made a standard class system for C++ too... would we be better off? Probably.
-pyrrho
The only real problem with Java is that so many kids are taking it today (I have heard it is being taught in more colleges than English), and those kids are being put in to positions they are not ready for (Bad economy, that wants cheaper labor). That coupled with the fact that it is a relatively new language screams for performance issues. This isn't the languages fault.
I think it is Java's fault. Like VB it's supposed to be the language so robust you can't hose it. Code away, think nothing of memory, automagic at your service! It promotes a totally false idea of what the pitfalls of programming really are. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
-pyrrho
most spelling doesn't matter to me.
"bytes"
Hmm . . . from reading your post, it sound like you do not have much experience. You will soon learn that women are not happy unless you try to go all of the way with them. I find that the odds are 50/50 for getting laid on the first date if you try. I have also found that I can get laid about ten percent of the time if I simply say "Let's go fuck" within the first thirty seconds of meeting a girl. If you keep the odds in mind, you will realize that you can have a different chic a couple of times per week.
Good luck.
Calling a BBS a "database" seems like overstatement to me.
Programming can be fun again. Film at 11.
Security features? Most of the "security" features in Java are aimed at permitting more than one trust boundary in a single address space. This is a poorly understood problem that Java doesn't actually solve. But even if it did, a stack security system is much more complex and difficult to configure than Unix setuid(2) and therefore even less likey to be used properly in practice. Furthermore, putting different programs in separate address spaces has advantages for robustness.
As for the rest (mainly array bounds checking and garbage collection), equivalent or better alternatives are available in C. Better still, they can be used only where they're needed. Check out Apache resource pools and the glib object system for some examples. Obviously C++ has even more of these toys. And if we don't restrict our choices to these three there are hundreds of interpreted languages with equivalent or better features. Lisp comes to mind...
I find that I'm far more productive in Java than I ever was in C++ and C. I find that's even truer for less experienced programmers.Exactly the problem. A rigid system like Java is indeed wonderful if the goal is to allow mediocre programmers to create mediocre applications. Cobol had the same sort of appeal in its day. There's nothing wrong with that, but those who aim for excellence don't need to be pampered. All those fluffy features just get in the way.
Real hackers do it without a net. ;-)
Not all those who wander are lost.
Well, sort of.
It does load quite fast with or with out X11, and in both case, the text rendering is as smooth as Safari.
However, the GUI needs a lot of work - it doesn't even have a backward or forward button! Most sites (apple.com, hp.com, cnn.com, yahoo.com) don't load at all. Only ibm.com and news.com display some sort of contents.
In short, a long long way to go.
Probally one of the reasons it was so damn good. I might just see if I can find some install disks and fire up DOSemu.
--- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
SWING is still slow. It may be faster than it used to be, but it's still far too slow to use for anything requiring
high performance.
Probably you could come up with some examples.
I use SWING based Java applications on my old 200 MHz Pentium with 128 MB RAM and on my newer 1400 MHz Athlon with 512MB RAM.
I use A Java IDE and a Java CASE tool. Neither one is slow! The IDE is as fast as Microsoft Visual C++ IDE, and the CASE System is as Fast as Rational Rose.
So
That it sometimes takes indeed a noticeable glimps of time to display a dialog? Or do you indeed see how screens get drawn or that menues open slow or what?
Strange is, on my old 200 MHz Pentium SWING is FAST since I use it in production, I never could follow the constantly repeated
regards,
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
The speed of java, the speed of Mozilla and running it with the speed of OS X????
;-)
It does work dude, you just won't see any results until next week...
After more than 10 years of getting computer users to OSes that separate and protect applications and processes, now we are going back to the old monolithic model, so that one bad JAVA app can compromise all other JAVA apps within the JVM.
Erm
Seems you have no clue about the VM architecture
Or you have far more clue then I
As Java "processes" inside of one VM are completely seperated, they cant interfear with each other. The only way to harm each other is to eat up shared resources like file handels/descriptors, but that can happen in ordinary OSes with ordinary processes as well.
regards,
angel'o'sphere
Cost free eBook I read (by iBook/Kobo/Amazon/ObookO/Gutenberg etc.): "The Green Odyssey" by Philip Jose Farmer.
Yes, it's slower than a native GUI app but you have to admit that it has vastly improved in 1.4. Also, it's fully portable and has no decencies (other than GTK on Linux, not sure which min ver) so it has it's advantages. I would like to see truly native widgets (to appease the "looks different" crowd) through some kind of conditional late binding, likely as an option, but that introduces a whole other set of problems.
"God of JAVA, their arrogance will kill it"
What power do they have ? Do you think they can kill SWT if they dont like it ?
You should google around and see what java really is. Its not a sun standard!
CIA Factbook 2002 (US):"Since 1975, practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20% of households
Seems you have no clue about the VM architecture :-)
This is really not worth the time to debate; just watch how JAVA plays out my friend.
Just as an example, look at the stability within a single java VM instance and its interaction with the applet. The current VM model has no protection or design mechanism to restrain the applet now, let alone if multiple applets are let loose in the same VM.
Applets can already hang the VM they are residing in; how do you think this will NOT affect other applets running in the same VM if it is moved to a multiple model.
Look at the Win16 VM on the early NT platform, they ran in a shared VM as well, and since they also didn't have the protection mechanisms, one Win16 application could bring down the whole Win16 VM.
This is why NT implemented separate processes (or an option for) Win16 applications so that they would get their own VM to protect them from other errant Win16 applications.
This was moving the model forward; however, it appears that Sun is moving everyone backwards.
Again it kills me that people here are the ones that are so for their 'own' control of enriching and optimizing their OSes and software development, and JAVA is just the opposite of this. You have no control over Java's implementation or performance.
Can you say, "Slave to Sun out loud?"
TheNetAvenger
Not just while it was being developer. JavaScript was called LiveScript in the initial releases of Netscape. It was changed to JavaScript when Java started becoming the "hot" technology.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
Dude, Sun didn't hire that goat. He lives in your closet.