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Do Online Schools Provide A Quality Education?
"After the dot com 'boom' settled down a bit, and I was no longer required to work 80 hrs a week, I decided that after ten years of being absent I would go back to school and finish up that elusive CS degree. Well, after shopping around a bit I found a very good, well known, University that was offering the degree, online.
'Cool,' I thought, no classes, all on my schedule, save gas, and I could work at 2 am if I wanted. I thought I had found the perfect way to learn.
BUT, after just one semester, I am starting to have my doubts. I am sure this is the way to go in the future, but I'm not so sure that the schools has got all the kinks worked out and I am beginning to believe that the professors, and possible even the schools, see this as a way for them to teach a class with a minimal amount of effort and cost.
You basically have a public conference area (a web based discussion group for comments) that you, the other students, and the professors participate in. This works very well because your assignments are given out on a weekly basis and you have a whole week to post comments and complete your assignments. You are required to participate in the discussions and then post your answers to quizzes in a private portfolio where it is graded by the professor and then returned to you.
Most of the professors participate in the conference like you are in a real classroom; with student asking questions and the professor responding, though, it is not real time.
But some of the professors only want you to post to the public discussion groups and never have you post to the private portfolio, basically this means they don't have to do anything accept scan the conferences and give out more assignments. They don't have to look over your work and give you any feedback. I bet it takes less than an hour a week to do this. Also, this allows other students to see the answers and just repost them.
The only thing this person seems to be doing is sitting on his butt all week; telling the students to just follow the syllabus for reading; and occasionally surfing the discussions groups to see who is there. That sounds like a very good deal for them, but I am not getting much out of this.
I also feel that ALL of the professors are very behind-the-times when it comes to IT. Just today I had a professor tell me she would not allow me to post a PDF file to my portfolio because she was worried about getting a virus when she read it?!
A few questions come to mind: Is this a quality education? Should the professors be required to show what they have done because they don't have a real classroom to attend? How much effort should a professor put forth for an online class? This has always been an issue in a real classroom, but now we have a whole new twist. Shouldn't professors be required to be a little more techno savvy before they give a course like this? Shouldn't the schools be reevaluating the 'new teaching style' and making some adjustments?
I am so angry with the way the school has set this up I will probably return to a normal class environment here at a local college, at least I know the guy is going to show up!
Has anybody else been to an online college? What were your experiences?"
I had an excellent experience at university of Phoenix Online. While I did experience a couple lazy instructors, there were requirements for daily discussion and interaction with other students about the material. This led to a situation where the material was covered in great depth almost in spite of the instructor.
With online courses you get exactly what you said. The biggest thing you are getting is credit. I have read lots of books, just reading them doesn't mean I learned anything. Credit is good.
It depends on the course.
Calculus - yeah, read the book, do the assignments, complete the exam. Hooray, you know calculus - you pass.
Literature - much more subjective, requires more work on the part of the professor/TAs.
It's important to note that many professors "skate" in real life university as well. They give the lectures, and the TAs do all the actual work. Some make themselves available between classes, some dont.
Quit whining.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
They give me a quality education, from EXPERIENCE I ALREADY HAVE!!!!!1111 I signed up right away and my degrees from a FULLY ACCREDITED university were hanging on my walls within days.
Never took an online course myself, but I was pretty amazed at the amount of work some profs did for some of the distance ed courses I took. Just out of curiosity, does this so-called prof have a number where you can give your own fedback?
Democratic USA - Government of the corporations, by the Corporations, for the corporations.
I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about the amount of effort that some of my professors are putting forward in my courses. I feel like some of them are "skating" and all I am paying for is a book, a posted syllabus, and a final exam.
Sounds like they are providing a pretty darn authentic college experience.
Education is what you make of it.
Takahashi Rumiko made beats! DON, taku, DON, taku. . .
The best online class I had was inPortein Crystalography with
Brierberk College in London inpartnership with a University in Israel..
Classe were online from IUPUI campus(Purude at Indianapolis) and discussions were held in a MUD..
and this was 1994...:)
Don't Tread on OpenSource
...which was interested in moving a few of their courses over to the web. I was hired to do much of the programming. At the end of the year when they did standardized tests and satisfaction surveys they found that the courses where they cut the in-class physical face time down to 20% of what it had been before and replaced that other 80% with interactive web content, the knowledge acquisition was almost identical and student satisfaction actually increased.
On the other hand, for the courses that they offered entirely on-line both knowledge acquisition (by performance on standaraduzed tests) and student satisfaction declined (something like 15 and 10 percent respectively, IIRC).
Now they have switched several other courses over completely to the 80/20 format, but offer fully on-line courses only as correspondence alternatives.
lysergically yours
I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about the amount of effort that some of my professors are putting forward in my courses. I feel like some of them are "skating" and all I am paying for is a book, a posted syllabus, and a final exam.
I feel that way about my profs. and I don't go to an online school.
Basically, in addition to the book, the sylibus, and the final exam, an online class should provide you with work (which you are supposedly motivated to do) and rapid responces to your work. Therefore allowing you to quickly learn by example and understand your mistakes. If you are able to motivate yourself, and already know enough about the subject to find your mistakes, you would be better off simply buying a book.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
I have looked into the on-line thing a bit, but the ones I have encountered are pretty high. In the range of $375 per credit hour, so a single course ends up costing about $1125. Thats a lot to take a course. What kind of prices is everyone else paying?
Hmm, it seems, from your question, that you may, want to take some English classes, to reform your overuse, of commas.
You'd better shop around.
Quality varies greatly, as do student expectations. Some students simply want the credits and there are certainly programs out there willing to offer the "skate" option.
However, I know plenty of professors/instructors who are passionate about online education. They spend much more time now with online stuff then they do for an in-class class. Answering emails, homework help, IM sessions, group chats, etc. And, it works and students are happier because it fits in their schedule. But in each case that I can point to as a success, the instructors are working harder.
"If you want to improve, be content to be thought foolish and stupid." - Epictetus
I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about the amount of effort that some of my professors are putting forward in my courses
I'm sure we've all had professors in our day that have been sub par. That is when you must take it upon yourself to learn the material on your own. In my opinion a professor should only be used as a back-up tool for your own learning... no matter how good or bad the professor might be.
I have often regretted my speech, never my silence.
-Xenocrates
the whole idea of "on-line" is that you don't attend ... unless you can convert yourself into electrons or light pulses and shoot down the cat5 and fiber, in which case you certainly have a marketable ability/talent already.
Since it's leaving you feeling cheated, when they ask for "real" money, fax them a copy of a $100.00 bill. When they complain, tell them that you're giving them virtual money for a virtual education. If they had given you a real education, you'd give them real money.
Mind you, you have learned a real lesson, I hope ...
For example, my last class was a law and ethics class. I probably spent 20 - 25 hours a week working on my papers for that class. However, I was greatly appreciative of my professor of that class because he provided me with detailed homework assignments. In addition, when I got feedback from him, it was on the order of 3 pages long. However, my class before that was not as good. The professor in that class would just give me a grade and not tell me why I received that particular grade. However, all the of the professors that I have had have been very open about communication. In fact, my current accounting professor and I have talked every weekend since the class has started.
Maybe some schools take it seriously and others don't? But, I can tell that I am working my butt off. I haven't had a whole lot of slack time.
I did a C++ class on line. I withdrew and got a refund when I could.
My problems were partly due to the way the class was run and partly due to my own nature. I had a tough time getting work done because there was no 'scheduled' time for me to show up any where. Rack this up as a failure on my part but I just tend to be more successful at getting work done when I've got to show up to class and turn it in.
The lack of in class time was tough because I couldn't sit and look at examples while the instructor was there to talk about how things were done. I missed that time to discuss with the instructor and other students. I know I'm not the only one who struggled in that regard. I did meet up with another student early on and help her learn how to set up and use her compiler. (free borland compiler)
On the class failing side- when I emailed the teacher with questions, responses were not prompt. His lectures were posted and there was no good method for getting further information to clarify points made in the lecture, etc. It was basically as you describe. Read a book, do homework, take a final.
There may be some who can use the format to advantage but it did not work well for me.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
This sort of slacking in education on the part of individual teachers is nothing new, and is not limited to online courses. It's human variation at its finest... Or worst, since when it's a teacher slacking, it hurts all the students under them.
I often tell about an experiment I did in college. I wrote a English Composition 101 paper with some carefully crafted mistakes and submitted it to the four teachers that taught that course. The final grades were: D, C, B, and A. For the same paper.
Of course, there's no real solution for this problem short of continuous monitoring of teacher performance. (If you are in school, fill out those teacher evaluations!)
If I were to pick an online education provider, I would look for one that has a well established evaluation system for it's professors/teachers.
~ Nonsanity
I've had some very good online classes with lots of interaction with the instructor and students and I've had really awful classes where all you get is the book and final exam. It really just depends on the instructor and how they set up the class. Before taking a course I would suggest that you talk to the instructor and ask what the class will be like. That way you know if you're just paying for a book or if you're getting a quality class.
The only thing this person seems to be doing is sitting on his butt all week; telling the students to just follow the syllabus for reading; and occasionally surfing the discussions groups to see who is there. That sounds like a very good deal for them, but I am not getting much out of this.
Yup, that sounds like pretty much every professor I had! Infact, there was one "intro to unix class" where the guy just printed off MAN pages right before class and used those to "teach"!
Couple that with people who have TAs do the grading, and the fact that at research oriented uni's (like mine) the professor is busy trying to get grants, screw the kids!
A lot of university classes are like that- and in those cases you are either paying for a "name" university, or you are paying less for a non-name uni.
Now I just finished my masters from the Part Time Engineering program and I had some friends take the same classes but the on-line versions: its a mixed bag.
If the professor has a set of slides that they teach from and they are top-nothc quality, then you don't even need to go to class! (this was true in undergrad for my CIRCUITS course- the text book blew, but his bound class notes were INCREDIBLE. start studying 6 hours before the final, walk out with an A)
So I'm sorry your professors stink. Its the SAME in person.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I never got huge amounts of feedback from my assignments in school, beyond the obligatory "nice work" etc. I think your expectations are a tad too high.
And "techno savvy"? Quit channelling Jon Katz!
Nathan
Anyway, I don't see anything inherently *wrong* with the model -- provided
- you are someone who learns through reading or doing but at least you don't require someone to explain it to you
and secondly- the materials are high quality -- this is, of course, true for any learning endeavour: start out with subpar information and it all goes down from there
I do think it takes a lot of self motivation and discipline to do this well, though. It's also awfully easy to skate by -- theoretically, if it's not a programming course (or maybe even if it is) -- by *recognizing* the material w/o solidly *understanding* it. The difference b/n knowing it solid and having it be familiar is a vast gulf.I liked the flexilibity that it gave me -- I completed the material in no time flat which was extraordinarily convenient.
Those who give up their power willingly deserve none.
The rest of my school is a complete joke, and the major reason is the professors. I've had to take classes like intro to publishing that are supposed to be followed up with more advanced classes like layout and typography, but it just turns out to be the same class twice because none of the professors are really that knowledgeable. The professors teach class like it was high school, putting major emphasis on attendance and then letting students just hand in complete crap for their assignments.
I'm slightly older than average for a college student (25), and I've been working as a graphic designer for a couple of years before deciding to complete a Mass Comm degree, and I've handed in things that I've done in a half hour, and would have gotten me fired from my job had I presented it to a client, but the professor would give me an A.
There is absolutely no reason in any of the classes to try, because basically everyone gets good grades, the difference between the highest grade in the class and the lowest is usually
I guess what I'm trying to say is - lazy and incompetant faculty is definately not a problem solely on online courses. I'd be willing to bet these same teachers would just skid by if you took a real world class. If you know your stuff already, I'd just say deal with it and get the stupid piece of paper (like I'm doing) If it's something you'd like to learn, and don't already know then search around for a different professor in the same program. If they're all crap then start looking for a whole new school.
I will probably return to a normal class environment here at a local college ... at least I know the guy is going to show up!
I did my A-Level computing at a local college (UK). The tutors kept quitting, we went through at least six, and most likely more, some for only one week. More time was spent telling the tutor what we had done then learning, and there were people there who thought this was what you did after a typing course, and wanted everybody to go at their pace.
Just because the place is physically there doesn't automatically mean it will be any good.
I'm scared of numbers that can't be written as a fraction. It's an irrational fear.
I attended the University of Phoenix.. I'm already in the field I want to be in so I went to UOP for the piece of paper and right to proclaim my Friday morning coffee first. Do the professors distribute up-to-date information? 50/50...a hit and miss scenario. Did the information stack up against what I already know? NO, if you are already in the field then you will have a leg up on your classmates. After tons of money poured into my education, do I feel enlightened? NO Do I feel it was worth the money, few hours a week wasted smoking cigs with classmates, time spent writing reports, performing every presentation for my group? YES I didn't go to college traditionally like some of my friends. I went to the military, then got a real job after it, then finished my schooling. The real question is what is your purpose? Do you want your degree fast? Do you need more information on how to do your job? Do you just need that paper for Mo' money? It's a fine balance for them all. Some schools offer the gambit and others do not. Whatever you do, if you are already in the field you want to be in...don't waste your money on a school you don't feel comfortable with. Nothing like paying $300 a month back for 10 years..talking about ouch!
I just finished a couple years of online courses to finish up my fourth year of a Bachelor of Arts from UMASS Boston after I moved out of state.
.. Prometheus seemed pretty lame to me. One of my classes used Centra, which was a little better. As a group in one class we used Groove, but the standard complaints (speed, interface, etc.) apply there.
..
If it hadn't been for online courses, I never would have received my degree from the university I had spent so much time at. Transferring credits would have been a nightmare, I already went through it once before.
My biggest beef was the online client
Is there an opensource project geared at this niche, to compete with the likes of Prometheus, Centra, and Groove? From my experience at least, the biggest thing holding back online courses is the cobbled together "environments"
You may as well be in a library reading the books on yur own... your simply spending your time paying bucks to get a "degree". Education is supposed to be a much more immersive experience, in which your entire world is focused upon whatever subjects your learning for certain spans of time. From the chalk-board to the many students to the profesor and all the hands on materials along with real hands on lab projects you can show to your fellow classmates and teachers in TRUE real-time.
When your simply posting and returning data from a web-page, and reading material be it online or off... you are not recieving an education, you are paying for the right to research and to attain a degree from it.
There are reasons why test taking is done in a class without access to the net and other such things. It is because you are supposed to test the actual mind and skills of a human without those resources at hand. This enables you to learn what you DONT know and to sharpen those skillsets.
Hence online education is kinda a joke. Ilearned a long time ago, i can learn anything i want without a piece of paper that says i did. So if your gonna go to school... make sure you go to the one with the biggest name.... cause thats all that matters in the end, youll learn what you want to know no matter what.
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
I do have some complaints, though:
- The whole curricula was the standard texts and notes "grafted" onto an online interface. The material and method of moving through it was a "transplant" of a traditional class lecture, lifted onto an online format. This does not work well - kind of like taking a book, scanning each page into a graphic file, then posting this as an online version.
- We were provided PowerPoint lecture notes taken from "live" lectures, though without the benefit of seeing the lectures (my suggestion : record the "real" lectures and have online students purchase as DVDs or VHS)
- I missed office hours and the ability to chat with knowledgeable graduate students when I got stuck. With some conceptually difficult material, you really have to hash over it with a live mentor to understand how it works.
- No real socialization with other students, owing to geography.
- "Group" projects were a nightmare of conference calls, online chats, emailing drafts back and forth, etc.
The good side is it allows folks with full time jobs to get degrees. It also allows folks to get specialized degrees that may only be available at a handful of institutions."dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"
I had a professor tell me she would not allow me to post a PDF file to my portfolio because she was worried about getting a virus when she read it?!
And this class is part of a CS degree?
In the past there have been virus's that have been transmitted by pdf files such as the peachy virus. If the professor is not completely familiar with her univerisities virus scanning software it wouldn't be totally unreasonable to limit submitted files to certain formats.
Due to credit diffecency due in a large part to my taking every programming class available, I ended up in an alternative high school. This was where most of the potential dropouts were sent (so as not to hurt the others schools funding due to the number of dropouts). Let me just say that when improperly implemented, these systems set people up for failure.
Throughout the computer courses, it was specifically stated that "This program [the computer learning software] is a supplement to the book, and is NOT intended as a replacement for it." Well, because of the low funding (too many dropouts - imagine why), the books were not available. The courses mainly consisted of a page where it would have 30 or so possible answers, and a date,event or name. You were supposed to pick the associated answer (after all, you read the book already), then move on. Every time you got the wrong aswer, you had to answer 3 more correctly before you could continue. Fortunatly, I learned to take notes (selection window, alt, e, copy, alt-tab, ctrl+v), so I could continue at a decent pace. Note taking was allowed. So while most people failed out after just a few weeks (the courses were _impossible_ without notes), I passed my senior english class in under 24 hours (I did have to rent mcbeth, and write a report).
In short, if you are a die-hard student (or really hate the place like I did), or if the program is _properly_ implemented, it can be a great tool. In the wrong hands, it's just failure waiting to happen.
Contact Me (got tired of viruses emailing me).
I only took 2 courses so far, and I am very impressed with how they handle and treat the program. Everyone invloved is very professional. The teachers actually go out of their way to accomodate both on and off campus students. My experience has been extremely pleasant, and I'm very satisfied with what they offer.
I took the traditional route and went to a brick and mortar school for my CS degree. While there, I met a number of very interesting people. Some of these people asked me to help them revive the school's sailing team. A boatload of CS and physics students engaged in a non-profit startup in the middle of the Hudson river is hardly what I expected, but I'm very glad that it happened to me.
Along the way I learned that graduate work is fun and picked up an MS degree as well.
While my education allows me to check the "has a BS" and "has an MS" boxes on job applications, the real benefit came from the faculty and students I met over the course of my four years.
That having been said, I think there is an enormous opportunity for online education. My education was expensive, and in this economy there is no guarantee that you will have a job on graduation. High quality schools have can accept only a limited number of students. The Internet is an incredible way to inexpensively disseminate information to a large number of people.
The original universities expanded substantially as books and paper became more and more available. Surely the internet will change education to an even greater extent.
Is anyone aware of a website that compares and contrasts various online university programs? Or allows people to discuss their respective experiences in some sort of forum? It seems that would be useful. But that could also be extended to "real-life" colleges as well.
This post was generated by a Cadre of Uber Monkeys for Monkey-Man2000 (603495).
Actually, most places this is just for pre-college education (at least in the US). College profs need not be credentialled... in fact at least one CS prof I had in the past didn't even have a degree....
I am starting to get a bad taste in my mouth about the amount of effort that some of my professors are putting forward in my courses. I feel like some of them are "skating"
Likely those professors feel exactly the same way about the students taking online courses.
There is an ongoing conservative perception in academia (not without merit) that, quite simply, people that are dead serious about obtaining a quality education are willing to make time for classes and all the homework they entail. I have spoken with a few of these teachers myself; they all felt that anyone whose schedule was already so packed that they couldn't find time to physically attend lectures and discussions was probably better off postponing their enrollment altogether until a point when they had the time and resources to properly devote toward a formal education, rather than risk acquiring something of potentially lower quality.
One of them went so far as to speculate on the much more involved feeling one gets when actually sitting in a classroom surrounded by dozens of students and with the professor lecturing authoritatively at the front. Basically, such a setting makes it all seem more real and therefore adds unconscious pressure to the participating students to take the class and its material seriously--as opposed to viewing absolutely everything to do with the class on your own comfortable monitor, in your own comfortable home, where any pressure to succeed in the class has to be entirely self-generated. And don't kid yourself: motivation can often be totally unreachable without a kick in the pants. Hence why some instructors penalize for non-attendance. They don't do it out of meanness, they do it because such a policy helps students to learn when the students are not willing to help themselves.
The coolest voice ever.
Unless some jock figures out a way to beat you up over the internet, you don't get the experience of a real school!
The wife is taking UnivOfPhoenix, and I think some of the classes are laid out rediculously. I think too much time is spent "doing" things, and no time is spent actually learning anything.
For example, they have these teams "collobarate" to write a paper. The team lead, gets to write the introduction, each person gets a specific section in the body, and another poor sap gets the conclusion. What a stupid way to write a paper. The team lead is on easy streat writing a one paragraph into, each person writes something so so so so specific, as to not learn/grasp anything, or even learn how to structure an essay, and the schmuch who got stuck with the conclusion, ends up spending hours trying to cohesively tie everything together. In the end, you wind up with a paper that is poorly written, has no logical flow, etc etc. I'm all for group projects, but it seems they like to work in groups for things that don't need to be worked on in groups, and don't work in groups for things that make sense to be worked on in groups, etc.
And all the communication is done by usenet newsgroups? This has got to be one of the poorest mediums for this type of work. I hear people complain how the servers are slow, don't update correctly, lose postings,etc. And people are having a hard time even tracking threads/converstations and such, cause people keep attaching to the wrong thread, etc...
Some of my EE classes in college were also distance learning classes, but we had cameras set up in the class, etc. Then again, I had a special prof. He didn't believe in note taking, cause he said every minute you spend writing notes, is another minute you aren't paying attention. So he had all the notes, guides, tables, etc all written before hand, and organized into a big fat binder, that you had to buy from the bookstore. That and he was very interactive, but now I'm getting off topic...
Anyways, for the money that UofPhoenix charges, I think its a big rip. I think they should've had pre-recorded and/or live lectures in real/windows media/name your favorite format, and you watch those, and the assignments are assigned there, etc. Use instant messaging for live chats/lab sessions/one-one etc etc. Hell, even use email threads for conversations or turning in assignments, using PGP or equivelent.
Anyways, back to our regularly scheduled programming...
Mr. Pot, please leave Mr. Kettle alone.
Many reputable engineering schools run off-campus versions of their Master's programs. (It's less common for undergraduate degrees.) Students on-campus take the class in the old-fashioned way; the class is videotaped and distributed via VHS tapes and FedEx or, more recently, via RealAudio/Video. Off-campus students are held to the same homework and exam schedules as on-campus students. It does require commitment since it's easy to fall behind when work projects interfere. Also, for courses with programming assignments, students sometimes have difficulty replicating the right setup. (Most of our programming assignments are on POSIX-compliant OS.) Usually, there are mailing list and bulletin boards, but students can also email the instructor or call him up during office hours.
There's even a 'virtual' university, NTU (http://www.ntu.edu), that bundles courses from major engineering schools. You end up with an NTU
degree in that case.
I teach almost all my graduate classes in this hybrid approach. The local video staff is *very* sensitive to student complaints and won't hesitate to call the dean to have a word with the instructor should the instructor be slow in answering student email, for example.
This is generally not cheap, but you get a real degree with name recognition and faculty that are (mostly) accountable for their behavior.
Most students are enrolled through their companies, who also pay the bill, but I don't think this is required.
Just as you said. I've taken some that were amazing. I actually learned more in the online class than others did in a similar (different instructor) real live class.
On the other hand, I took one that sucked balls. Just like you described. Waste of everyones time.
Of course, at that school real classes were the same sort of hit/miss. THe trick was to drop early enough to save your money.
Apparently some people who weren't wroking 80 hrs a week knew enough fellow classmates to know which profs were good and which blew.
I wish I was one of them.
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
I enrolled at Mississippi State University through their distance learning program. There's a good chance someone you're watching on TV has been through this course. It's three years, 17 courses, 50 some odd credits. Until I'm totally finished, there's no need to go to Starkville, MS or anywhere close.
I am impressed with the idea and execution. My lectures are delivered on both VHS tape and DVD (I watch the lectures on DVD, though at double speed!). My textbooks are standard issue, same as are used at brick and mortar colleges. Each course features weekly untimed quizzes (10%), quarterly timed tests based on homework (30%) and a timed midterm (30%) and timed final (30%).
The lecturers/professors aren't polished TV people... but which of your profs were? There are different instructors/proctors online who monitor a bulletin board, answer questions and ride herd. They are mostly attentive and helpful.
The tests and quizzes are administered online and are multiple choice.
The courses are run using WebCT software, which I am told is pretty standard with distance learning.
As in "real" college, sometimes I have to study, other times I do not. I have learned some interesting things (having gone most of the way through my first year)... even one or two useful things.
After the first semester, my wife asked if I had learned anything? I said yes. But, she noted, "how important could it be if you didn't need it in the last 20 years?" And, of course, she was right.
I found it interesting that before I was accepted, I had to send my transcripts and SATs to MSU. I was surprised the College Board still had my numbers, taken in December 1967 (back when SAT scores ended in single digits and not tens). I'm curious what these ancient records could possibly say about me now? It is living proof that when your teachers said something would go on your permanent record, they weren't kidding!
As a 52 year old, in the middle of my career, with a wife and family, this is the only way to go back to school. I'm a proud to say I'm a straight "A" student, something I never even approached during my first, ill fated, trip to college 35 years ago.
I'm in an interesting dilemma. I just finished my master degree and I am looking at a PHD/ Doctoral program. I have work/time constraints so full time PHD work is not an option. Looking at online distance self paced education has large benefits. I received the brochure from Kennedy-Western University and Cappella University. I concerned that they are just diploma mills yet from all I have seen they are legit. While the cost is pretty steep, the convenience I receive from going this route makes it worth it. Any graduates from these institutions have feedback that my sway my decision?
Kennedy-Western University is not a regionally accredited university. Its only credental is that it is licensed by the state of Wyoming. Thats it. I wouldnt expect too much respect from a degree attained from them.
I talk about some of these subjects from the instructor side on my own weblog, The Intuitive Life, in particular you might want to check out I thought students had lots of opinions? and Lazy students, a rant, both of which address the same basic question of student interaction.
If anyone has further questions that I can answer, please feel free to drop me a note!
I've come to think of online education as Lowest Common Denominator Learning (LCDL). I've had instructors who value face-to-face interaction and the "art" of teaching admit that the college is moving more and more classes to the online format because it's cheaper to run.
My reaction after all the online courses I've taken:
Interestingly, the best class I've taken online -- which I'm taking now -- is a Perl scripting class. It's only 1 credit hour, 3 weeks. Why?
Okay, that was waaay more than $0.02!
"It's an erotic, spectacular scene that captures the thrusting, violent, vibrant world Bohemian spirit..."
There's nothing magical about online education. If the school is good in real life, the school will be good online. My institution, Virginia Tech, offers online courses that are taught by the same professors that teach classroom courses. They use the same materials; the only difference is that lectures are distributed via electronic mail, audio or online conferencing. The neatest courses, like our innovative Engineering Cultures class, are delivered through a tool called CentraOne that offers voiceconferencing that is surprisingly effective.
This actually improved some of my classes. For one technical writing course, my professor was blind and conducted the course through e-mail via a screen reader. It was one of the best classes I've ever taken, and I had no clue he was blind until after the course was over and I talked to a friend (I always wondered why he was so particular about what the subject lines of our e-mails were...)
The key is that all of these professors had prior classroom experience. There is no Free Lunch (tm). If the institution has a good reputation IRL, they will offer good online classes. Online only universities without real life backing are sadly not ready for prime time yet. Maybe initiatives like MIT's OpenCourseWare, and less prestigous initiatives like the VT CS department's online courseware publishing (http://courses.cs.vt.edu/ - great lecture slides on C++ there) will change that someday by providing a basis in quality courseware... until then, though, you're better off at your local brick and mortar educational institution.
I haven't attended an Online University, but I have been involved in serveral serious E-Learning projects on the developers side - also on campus related projects. Some of them being reference grade online e-learning systems and enviroments that I had the opportunity to design.
When doing E-Learning or setting up an E-Learning enviroment or teaching in an E-Learning enviroment there are a few things one has to keep in mind:
1.) Quality and content costs work and effort. The LMF may be SCORM compliant and cost 10 Million $, but if there's no quality content that has been set up by a competent team of developers, editors and teachers it's just a big hunk of code - and a big pile of useless, steaming excrement.
2.) E-Learning has benefits and drawbacks and so does classic learning compared to E-Learning. In your situation E-Learning may be more benefitial, but only if all involved know how to reap the benefits of E-Learning! If your Profs haven't the most basic skills of preparing and browsing online content - be it with their special system or the usual tools - it's somewhat pointless of taking lessons with them. Training the teachers is crucial to an online learning enviroment!
3.) E-Learning requires a basic skillset to even actually take place! Like normal learning and teaching requires skills like reading and writing, and, let's take math for an example, a basic knowlege of a formal language, so does E-Learning and E-Teaching require skills like proper e-mailing, online editing, preparing content for hypercontext, object-oriented thinking and a totally different subset of discipline. In class you shut up and listen and raise your hand when you want to ask something. And you only speak when asked (usually that is). Via E-Mail you use quoting and don't write tofu. (that's a simple example of this discipline thing)
With these points in mind and a whole lot more in the background I'd like to add that E-Learning hasn't grown up yet, imho. When I see the last remaining stashes of 'dot-bomb' cash being burnt on E-Learning projects that have no link to reality whatsoever (performance and usability wise) with hideously bloated databases that aren't even properly normalized and LMFs (learning mamagement frameworks) that cost enough money to give Etiopia a real chance and zilch usable content in them, I think it's safe to say one does good when looking closely thrice at an E-Learning enviroment. Be it as a teacher, scholar or the president of a university.
E-Learning/Online Learning will grow up when standards have prevailed and people generally will have grasped the concept of Hypertext and quoted commenting. Until then it will remain closer to pointless.
The rest is just detailwork by us developers and is mostly academic by real-world standards. Who in the end gives a damn if you use Smil or XML or JBoss or Zope? Right.
We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
I took CS 3, my school's (required) intro to computers course. Learn the fundamentals of computing, *snore. Anyway, I figured that i'd rather take it over the summer and online, rather than listen to 2.5 hour long lectures on desktop publishing and what a server is. The upshot was that for the strictly factual material we covered it was fine, especially for people who allready knew the subject, we could simply do the work at our leisure. I got an A in the class and spent only about an hour and half a week completing work. Unfotuanately, the interesting side, discussions on computing ethics, was completely horrible because of the lack of a true discussion element. The web BBS we used just didn't feel as conducive to discussion. The fact that the teacher rarely (maybe twice) chimed in just fucked it up even more. Just a note, it also makes teachers lazy when other students will often answer posted questions faster than the teacher. Although I can't see that as a bad thing as long as they are at least read by the teacher.
Photos.
When I was in grad school, I remember that I heard a lot of students grumbling and complaining to each other about the profs. You know people like these profs at your job. They're doing as little as they can possibly get away with in their undergrad classes. At many universities, teaching responsibilities only make up something like 10% of the consideration for raises and promotion. The rest is research, committee work, and such.
The only way a prof is forced to meet some minimum standard is year end evaluations from students, which contribute a little to his future raises and promotions, and feedback through administrative channels. I heard one student who had failed a class complaining to the undergraduate coordinator that the prof had basically neglected his duties. The undergraduate coordinator was basically saying that there was little he could do after the class was over and only one or two students came to complain. If, on the other hand, 20% of the students registered a complaint just before mid-term, then there was obviously something wrong. The prof would have probably been put under much more scrutiny. The department may have assigned someone to attend some of his classes and review the material he was giving the students. The prof is not at a university just to teach undergrads, but they do have a professional responsibility to you. The university is in charge of enforce a minimum standard of quality, but they can't do that without a lot of student feedback. If the university fails to act on such issues, then you might not like the product they're providing. Time to take your money elsewhere.
Anyway...long-winded post, but the point is that complaining anywhere but the appropriate channels at your school is not really going to help your situation. It's like complaining to your family about a difficult co-worker and gossiping about him behind his back but never confronting him or his manager directly about your issues. It might help blow off steam. You might get a lot of sympathy. But you're never going to help improve your situation without giving the feedback to the right people.
I'm taking Ph.D. classes at the University of Idaho Engineering Outreach. They send you DVD's of the live class, and you follow 1-2 weeks later. The 800 number to the instructor and email to the class and instructor work well.
I've heard good things about Univ of Pheonix, but last I checked, they don't offer Ph.D.s in Computer Science.
What I don't like about U of Idaho is how fast the papers come back to you graded. (Sometimes a month or so, depends on the instructor.) At first I was upset about it, and now I just figure that is how distance learning at the school works.
I've got only 18 hrs worth of Ph.D. work. It would be better to work off a local university, but if you don't have the option, this isn't bad too. The classes are entertaining and educational.
I've also heard it is a good idea to make sure that the instructors haven't graduated from the university they teach at. Inbreeding is a bad thing.
... would be for each student to write the entire paper, then meet together for the equivalent of a "code review", then take the best ideas and phrasing from all the papers to create a finished effort.
I have been a college Physics and Astronomy teacher for 10 years. I decided to look into the online schools as way of expanding my teaching coverage.
The entire process of "teaching" in that environment is only suitable for subjects that allow lots of "round table" style discussion. A liturature class where the plot motives are hashed out online in a forum would be a good example.
Math and science is next to impossible.
I would argue that the instructors are working in an unsuitable environment more than I would argue that the instructors are slack. It is a system that encourages a very hands off approach.
I would also argue that the degree obtained from those online schools is exactly what was purchased, a piece of paper. It has no academic merit. Like many private, for profit "schools", they exist to make money, not educated graduates. The one I was with even had incentives like those of a dot-com (stock options!).
In short, if you want an education that will move you ahead in life, go to the best traditional school in your interest area that you can get in.
If you want an impressive piece of paper that verifies you (or your parents) paid enough classes to qualify for a graduation ticket, go to a big name traditional private school.
If you want to wast several years online to "earn" a "diploma" doing the barest minimum for a big bucket of cash, go to an online school. It won't advance your career unless you dig ditches or hang off the back of a garbage truck (an completely horrid job that I am very gratefull that those people do. I always thank them when I'm out and the truck shows up.)
The only thing I miss is the "what didja get" discussions after tests and homeworks are handed back and the other interactions with other students. Other than that, the experience is identical to my traditional undergrad education and much more convenient.
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Shouldn't professors be required to be a little more techno savvy before they give a course like this?
Are any CS professors really techno savvy?
Now, before I get jumped, I'm a teacher. You have to understand that most professors are either current in their field or are good teachers. Those that are current probably aren't going to be tapped for what is already a dysfunctional classroom environment. That leaves those that are good teachers. They know the theory, but aren't necessarily up to the cutting edge.
You aren't going to school to really learn, judging by what you've written. You're going to earn piece of paper confirming what you and your boss have known for the past 10 years: you know your CS.
This isn't to say that you shouldn't always expect more from educators, but you need to keep your goals in mind.
We have been doing online courses for about 4 years now.(Yes I have left the name of the company out)
We were using Voice Over I.P and a neat little tool called Placeware. (Now owned my Microsoft)
We taught a variety of subjects from MCSE certification. Which we had students all over the U.S. take the course. I have to admit it was not quite a success. We had a pilot program with a troubled inner city school teaching MS office. Our instructor was in California and the school was located in D.C.
We currently work with Two University's which offer technology in the classroom courses to teach teachers how to integrate using technology in the classrooms.
We have had mixed reviews from students, some love the convenience of sitting at home and never having to drive to the University, to "I won't take another online class again".
We had an interesting response from one student from the D.C school who described to us that it made him more responsible to get the work done on time.
It all depends on the instructor and the technology platform they use and how creative and engaging he or she makes the online class.
I have seen university's who offer nothing but online chat and forums to email correspondence only.
Now as far as providing a quality education that remains to be seen. I think the only company/University who can answer that would be the University of Phoenix. We have had 2 or 3 online courses that augment student's classes but we have not offered a complete online degree program as of yet.
My wife is getting her MS in Psycology (Industrial/Organizational) from Capella and she seems pretty happy with it (about 7 courses into it). The courses are about $1500 each (not including textbooks). She gets two assignments each week which are always writing a short point paper on that weeks topic. She is also required to comment on other students' posted work. So far she says the instructors are hit and miss. Some are really interactive, others are somewhat distant. Email me if you want more specific info.
"It takes considerable knowledge just to realize the extent of your own ignorance." - Thomas Sowell
I've never taught an online course before, but from talking to a lot of my colleagues (and my wife, who's a teacher), reality seems to be exactly the opposite of what you're saying: it's typically much more work for the professor to teach a course online. Look, teaching a traditional lecture course is an easy gig, if you don't care about doing a good job. You have a set of canned lectures that you deliver every semester. You drone on and on, pausing to ask for questions, but never pausing for long enough that anyone will really go ahead and ask one. If you want to, you can also engineer things so that you don't have a lot of grading to do: don't grade homework, don't require papers, make all the tests scantron, etc.
Teaching online is a huge amount of work the first time you do it, because you have to create a cr--load of stuff on the web.
At my school, people seem to have had very mixed luck teaching things online. A lot of them report that they end up getting all the worst students in the online sections, because the students perceive it as an easy way to take care of the course -- you don't even need to show up for lecture? -- kewl! It also tends to be more reading- and writing-intensive, which is a problem for a lot of students at less selective schools, who are operating at a remedial level in English, or who may not be native English speakers.
Find free books.
I am currently working on a masters in aero at ODU, and my biggest gripe is that the students are complete lumps in the classroom. It seems like they just come in to take notes, don't understand anything, and then try to figure it out on there own later. Yeah, I know this is how the majority of universities are.
I guess I'm spoiled from going to small schools in the past-I miss students actually interacting with the teacher in class. Then again, I slept through most of my classes in HS and college.
Let's face it, the only way you learn anything these days is on your own. Most teachers are just there to provide structure and material, with the institution proving "credit." Rarely, you'll get a class where the teacher that actually teaches you something, or classmates who aren't vegetables. (And good luck retaining any of it.) So you're not missing out. It's all just for a piece of paper so you can get a job where you'll learn what you need to by doing.
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PudriK
So I'm saying the problem you see is probably fairly widespread and definitely real but will take a while to fix. The universities will need to put a priority on the online classes and hire staff that focuses on them. When that happens you will see better content/participation.
"You can now flame me, I am full of love,"
I actually had a horrible time in an online economics course I was taking for my university. I really hate driving for thirty minutes to get to my classes and I figured I'd knock out some of the easy courses online and work with my "own" schedule.
We had a similiar online forum or web board to discuss with other students and get help from the teacher. The problem was the teacher was supposed to answer any questions and reply to each of your posts, ours never bothered. This wasn't too bad, as some of the students had a better grasp of the subject than others.
The worst problem I encountered, was that our teacher was not computer literate. She had problems opening my RTF, TXT, and PDF files. Claiming they were "too large" for her computer or giving her "virii." These are only little paltry 100K files, and she's griping.
She would assign 0's for these assignments without any dispute because they violated her "on-time" policy. Out of all the worst experience I had with her was with deadlines. When Christmas vacation rolled around, I synced all of the January dates in my PDA and on my wall calendar so I could do them on-time when the break ended. When I came back to turn them in, the datches were mysteriously changed to the last day of the break.
Now assignments are always spaced by almost three days a piece, and these were too before the change. When I tried to contact her about the late assignments, and why the dates were changed (especially why I wasn't notified) she said I should have been checking the calendar during Christmas when they were changed. Sure. An email would have been nice.
Finally she gets feud up of my complaints, and writes my course liasion (the guy who sets you up for the course). The irony is that she forged the date on the email to look as if she sent it a week earlier. Sadly headers proved her horribly wrong and caught in a lie. I showed the liasion and he called the "school." Her claim was that she doesn't make sure her rig's clock is set appropriately. Sure. Her clock magically jumped a week back.
When the course ended, I had failed miserably, I would get the correct answers but 0's for her inability to open (or willingness to do so) my files. I called the school and asked for a refund to which they complied.
Sadly to this day she still spams me with "You are late," emails...
Just finished my Ph.D. at an on-line University. As some have said, you get what you put into it. With this particular uni, there were no semesters, but you were given a time limit to finish all the required courses and final paper (dissertation in my case).
Some of the courses were easy, and related to my interests, others made me get out the Calculus and DiffEQ books from 20+ years ago when I went the formal route for my BS/MS.
While its true that there were no formal classes - the professors/tutors were available upon request, and there is an on-line chat capability for others taking the same course.
I busted my butt harder in this program than I had in the two previous ones where I was attending meat-space classes. Of course, this time I was working full-time with a wife and a 4yr old son (at the start).
My biggest complaint is that my employer would not reimburse me because their policy was if a local uni is available, they don't pay for distance learning.
jerry
"Software is the difference between hardware and reality"
No, this has got to be a pretty stupid question. The point of college is not to just learn facts and how to problem solve. It is about social interaction, and lab work. Maybe I am just wierd, but I got a whole lot more from my lab classes than I got from classes that were like goto class listen to prof, go home read book, take test.
HSD official obtained Ph.D. from diploma mill
A high-ranking career official in the Homeland Security Department apparently obtained her doctorate from a Wyoming diploma mill.
Laura L. Callahan, now senior director in the office of department CIO Steven Cooper, states on her professional biography that she "holds a Ph.D. in Computer Information Systems from Hamilton University." Callahan, who is also president of the Association for Federal IRM and a member of the CIO Council, is commonly called by the title "Dr."
Callahan's resume says she began her civil service career in 1984. Before joining HSD, she was deputy CIO at the Labor Department.
Hamilton University, according to an Internet search, is located in Evanston, Wyo. It is affiliated with and supported by Faith in the Order of Nature Fellowship Church, also in Evanston. The state of Wyoming does not license Hamilton because it claims a religious exemption. Oregon has identified Hamilton University as a diploma mill unaccredited by any organization recognized by the U.S. Department of Education.
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I'm normally just a lurker, but I've just got to reply to this, my experience was so bad. I'll apologize in advance: look out for unsuppressed flames leaking through.
I took an online CS course through Hudson Valley Community College (near Albany, NY) this past semester to brush up my C and C++ programming skills, and the course used the online course system from SUNY. The system itself has limitations in its capacity for providing an equivalent to a face-to-face lecture and for facilitating real discussion among students and instructors. But the biggest problem was a professor who went way beyond "skating" through the course, and virtually abandoned it.
Some people in this thread have claimed that a professor who puts insufficient effort into an online course is no different than one who does so in a classroom course, but I beg to differ. In a real classroom, you will at least know if the instructor doesn't show up for class. In my course, several times the professor didn't respond to anything posted for a week to ten days (if he responded at all), and at first I actually thought he might have died (or at least been in the hostpital)! What else could explain such behavior, unlike anything I've ever experienced in a classroom?
As an unfortunate side effect when this started to happen, most of the other students dropped the course (or at least stopped participating). If only I had known that this would continue throughout the course, I would have done the same while I still could. The consequence of this was that there was only one other student with whom to "discuss" anything, and she in too far over her head to be of any help.
After much effort I was able to get in touch with the professor by phone, at which time he assured me that things were back to normal and there wouldn't be any more slipping of the course schedule, assignments not handed out, questions not answered, self-tests not posted, etc., but that turned out not to be true. Assignments were not given until after the course syllabus said they were due. The course slipped weeks, then more than a month behind schedule.
I realized that contacting the professor again wouldn't be enough; I e-mailed his department chairman, who said he'd look into it. So the professor cut the missed units right out of the curriculum until it appeared we were back on schedule.
By the end, he had delivered more-or-less-complete materials for only about half of the units in the entire course, including almost nothing relating to C++. And he never once gave any feedback relating to any of the assignments submitted; they may as well have gone into a black hole. The only feedback I got on any of the programming assignments in the entire course was from the compiler.
The result was that I didn't get any more out of the course than if I had simply bought a textbook and done some of the exercises: no real instruction from the professor, no discussion among students, no feedback on any assignments.
I'm still in the process of trying to get my money refunded for this course that essentially didn't even take place, but I don't think my chances are too good now--because I was too persistent and (largely) stuck with it until the end! But in a classroom course, if the professor never showed up for half of the classes, wouldn't you expect to get your money back, or at least get a chance to take the course again at no charge (with a better instructor)?
A couple of years ago I took an online course in developing online courses.
My impression was that the Prof worked as harder or harder than in most face-to-face classes. Everytime I submitted an assignment it was returned graded within 24 hrs. Usually if I submitted in the morning it was returned in that afternoon and when I submitted in the afternoon it was returned the next morning. This was even true when I submitted them on weekends. He responded to emails even more quickly usually in less than an hour, frequently in 5-10 minutes.
Since it was a course in developing online courses, we talked about the amount of time it takes for the instructor. It was my Prof's belief that an online course took more of his time than a traditional class. In fact he limited the number in the class after the first time it was given because of this constraint.
The really nice thing about the course was that it provided for a broad range of learning styles. The main lectures were done in RealAudio with HTML "slides". But there were plenty of optional reference materials that a person could browse at the same time: outlines, transcripts, glossaries, etc. That plus the fact that I could instantly "rewind" and review anything I didn't quite follow made it a very good learning experience.
My guess is that you have instructors who barely know the material themselves, didn't develop the course materials themselves, have no educational training and are earning a pitifully low salary. That would be par for the course (no pun intended) in todays educational environment.
I teach at a Junior College and have encountered a wide range of misconceptions about online classes. The biggest is that it requires less time/attentino by the instructor. Nothing is further from the truth.
Typing out an answer to a question requires a lot more time and effort than if you can say it orrally while visually checking to see if everyone understands it
Additionally, an instructor is much harder pressed to find ways to check students for understanding. In a classroom I can just call someone to the board to work out a subnet problem, or have everyone do it on their own peice of paper independently. Then we go over it and if anyone has questions or didn't get the same answer I can quickly find out why. I have faces I can look at and people I can easily build relationships with to know what they're level of undersatnding is.
This all goes out the window on an Online format. New techniques have to be developed. Instructors who have PHDs and have been teaching for years and years may be able to handle things in a live room based soley on their teaching experience, but are totally lost when they have to rethink the entire process after moving online.
Just Designing an online curriculam is different than simply assigning a book to buy. If you are going to teach a class effectively online, you need to find materials and delivery methods that take advantage of the online format. Most instructors don't realize that.
I havn't personally reviewed any online classes I thought were well done. I've seen some of what we're doing at my school, and am pretty dissapointed. My wife signed up for them. She did fine, and learned, but only because she was motivated to put in a lot of extra personal effort that normally isn't required by students in a classroom (the drop rate was somehting like 60-70+% for that online class)
On the plus side, if you don't read the book, you ain't passing!
I took a few online classes earlier during freshman year. (Statistics and some other bullshit requirements) Waste of time simply put. Its just a way for students AND professors to get out of doing any difficult work.
But completely online Universities? You miss half of what college is all about. As important as the classroom knowledge that is imparted to you, it isn't the complete picture in an education. You don't get the peer interaction, the bouncing of ideas off fellow students and professors, volenteering in a research lab to put your classroom skills to work, and the self disovery.
The big public (i.e. they have listed stocks) companies are DeVry (c'mon, techies should know this one), Strayer, Corinthian College, Career Education Corp, Education Management Corp, and Apollo Group (owner of UoP) and parent of separately-listed UoP Online.
UoP is the "gold standard" because they only do degree programs. The rest have greater or lesser participation in "diploma" programs, which could be anything from art school to diesel mechanics. (Think Sally Struthers, and I'm not talking about hungry kids.)
Two-thirds of the all the for-profit enrollment goes to these institutions. The rest mostly go to numerous privately-owned for-profit colleges.
The big guys all have online programs to some extent, while the little guys are also developing them thanks to online service providers like microcap EVCI, which used to be a videoconference company but now licenses software and acts a service provider for online education to many colleges, including some of the big ones.
All the big colleges are expanding by buying up the smaller institutions. However, already owning 2/3 of the space, they are now finding it tougher to expand profitably and have started buying things like Caribbean medical schools (Ross U.). Because of the way Title IV federal funding for education works, it is much more favorable to by a branch already in operation that to open a new one. To continue to expand, they have to gain students from the non-profit colleges, namely the community colleges.
At quick glance one can't tell a for-profit from a non-for-profit unless you check it out. And it's not clear that you should care too much--many non-profits are run basically for the benefit of administrators and faculty--that's who gets the economic profit!
The big difference used to be the aggressive recruiting by the for-profits, which has since been disallowed because the institutions would price whatever program (degree or diploma) at the level of the government loans and just sing people up, telling them that they didn't have to front any money. Then the poor bastards would graduate (or more often, not) 18 or 24 months later none the wiser, default on their loans, and the institution would still get paid, because the loans are government guaranteed (besides which, they already collected their money). New York state is now changing the law to at least withhold 1/3 of funds until the student actually graduates; it's a small hardship for students to raise the cash ( a few thousand) but will make a huge difference in eliminating the "no-money-down" type programs that really take advantage of people who believe everything they read in subway advertisements.
As you would expect, the for-profits are quicker to sell what they know people want to buy. And many people want cheap, easy degrees. Particularly in government service, it doesn't matter where you get your degree, as long as it's from an accredited institution, which almost all institutions aside from pure diploma mills (and a number of law schools) are. Like people said, I'm sure you could learn a lot online if you were really excited about the material. But most people aren't paying for the material; they are (or should be) paying for the structure and feedback that they need to help (force) themselves to learn the material, just like hiring a personal trainer.
The online degrees may be a great deal for the first people to get them, before employers get wise to the average level of learning completed. Then the backlash will come.
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I have written some courses, and been a paid consultant to help a small graduate school put some seminars online. I will try to answer some of the questions from the original post before going on a rant. :)
A few questions come to mind: Is this a quality education?
That depends on what your goals are; if you need to get the paper to get a better job then sure! If you need to really do real work with the knowledge you gained, probably not.
Should the professors be required to show what they have done because they don't have a real classroom to attend?
Professors should be required to meet whatever criteria happens in a physical classroom. Sometimes that is not much, if you feel like the professor is not getting watched, your gripe is with the school, not the professor.
How much effort should a professor put forth for an online class?
A great deal. Making a class online is pretty hard, under estimating how much time, effort, and work it takes is common.
Shouldn't professors be required to be a little more techno savvy before they give a course like this?
Absolutely. Either that, or have someone around who is participating in what is going on who can teach the professors, or simply do the work for them. (Especially for a CS or technical class, the Prof. should have good to excellent computer usage skills, their students probably have them.) I constantly ran into not only technical ignorance, but arrogance about the techonology, like somehow if they could not push a mouse in the right direction it was the fault of the mouse. Not the fact they were inept and in way over their heads.
Note however, that the school also has the responsability to put forth enough effort to make the departments capable of teaching online (i.e. $$$). It is not as easy as getting a server farm, buying an expensive whiz-bang pile of software and a couple of grad students to admin the thing. It takes massive effort to teach the professors, the students, and generate the material correctly.
Shouldn't the schools be reevaluating the 'new teaching style' and making some adjustments?
No. They should be rebuilding the entire method used to transfer information from one brain to another.
Ok, here's my rant.
Every single client I ever worked with doing online classes severely underestimated the amount of work the presenter and the institution would need to put forth to put classes online. Not one came to me with even an INKLING of how much work it takes.
Even a "1 day" or "2 day" seminar takes a man-months to produce. Each point, concept, conclusion, idea, and so on has to be articulated in a scripted way (HTML, PDF, images, video, sound or whatever) and put together in a massive outline.
Most clients had the attitude "well, give it to the tech guy and he'll put it in there" without ever once thinking about the fact that the whole classroom model they are used to using is busted and needs to be planned out, created and put back together.br>
Once the big outline is done, THEN the whole thing has to be crammed into whatever method use to present the stuff. Next the professor has to figure out how to run all the stuff, and on top of dealing with their material in a new way, learn to deal with the interface, the new "24-hour" nature of the item, figure out how to keep the student's attention, run discussions and chat, and so on....
A few of the presenters were not even able to articulate themselves differently than their habititual ramblings in a classroom. They would say things, but couldn't TYPE them in a way that was understandable.
Struggling through this, they bitched the whole time about how much money it was costing. My response was, "well, hire your own full time geek or put up." (not in those exact words)
Web pages, and the companies that sell the "online classroom" services are only a
I've been interested in distance education for a number of years... and while there are a number of excellent schools out there, the number of fraudulent or less-than-wonderful programs is growing exponentially. Surprisingly, U of Phoenix, while certainly the most advertised program, is neither the best value nor provides the best education. Thomas Edison State, Charter Oak State, and Excelsior College (all state affiliated schools, NJ, CT and NY, respectively) generally offer much more cost-effective and high quality programs, and there are dozens of other excellent programs out there. Oh... and not to burst a bubble, but the person who mentioned the "fully accredited" degree that he got based on life experience within a few days of applying unfortunately purchased a bogus degree. There are a *lot* of schools that exist only online, operated out of Mailboxes Etc locations, with fake accreditors they've created to attest to their value. One *can* earn a fully accredited undergraduate degree based on life experience, but it typically takes 3-6 months at the absolute minimum to do all of your exams, portfolio documentation, and other work to document your knowledge. The schools who do it based on a resume and a few papers are a scam, and their degrees aren't recognized by anyone in academia, and are often "time bombs" that explode when an employer figures out that the degree is a fake. If you want to learn more about this field and find out about good programs, the website www.degreeinfo.com also has a very large (60,000 messages, 4,000 members) discussion board where all the dirt on practially every DL program that ever existed can be found with a quick search. The newsgroup alt.education.distance is another pretty good resource, though the signal-to-noise ratio, as with all unmoderated newsgroups, is pretty awful.
Well actually my brother got an on-line degree in circumscision. They showed you pictures of where to cut, and which end to cut, and they had Power Point slides about it and everything.
It cost him $48,00 but he has a good job now at the hospital. He gets 100 skins a week, and a chance to get ahead. Really.
He got his certificate by email, and he printed it on his color printer, and it looks really great up on his wall.
He hardly ever makes many mistakes.
It worked for him.
Shorty
a big part of going to school is learning to do new things--getting better at the things you're not already good at. Focussing on the stuff you already do well kind of makes the whole exercise moot.
I don't think that's true. There are basically two mindsets towards Computer Science: the Engineering approach and the Science approach. The Science approach is basically a match course with a few language classes and maybe a database or networking course at the senior level. The Engineering approach teaches project management, coding style, lots of languages, and the like. The Engineering approach often includes an MCSE component and lots of hands on stuff. You probably took an Engineering oriented CS class. Interestingly enough, 10 years ago most CS courses in the country were Science type, and were even in the "College of Sciences" or whatever the equivelent was in the university. These days more CS departments are in the College of Engineering than anything else.
Recently Virginia Tech dissolved its College of Arts and Sciences, and the CS department ended up as part of the College of Engineering. The CS professors were all wringing their hands worrying that the college was going to move away from the theoretical and focus on the skills of the trade.
I read the internet for the articles.
Maybe the best place for these online classes is as a way to teach the things that you never really wanted to learn in the first place and that you'll likely forget about as soon as you get that diploma.
I'm taking classes at a VERY expensive college in Boston, upwards of $15K a semester (with tuition, books, paying off the expensive Boston dorm/apartment, etc.). In order to take some nice $80 credits, I enrolled at Bunker Hill Community College for some gen eds. My major requires me to take History of Art and another unspecified 3 credit gen ed course. Bunker Hill offers both of these as courses with little time spent on campus. History of Art (Bunker Hill calls it "Art Appreciation") is a web course with assigned reading and tests every couple of weeks. The nonspecified gen ed I chose was "Sociology of Film", which requires you to watch a film on your own time every week and answer some short essays about the film.
The reason I like taking these courses as web courses is because: I really don't care that much. I'm sorry, but I'm a music major. I understand that the whole history of art thing is important, but when I took History of Art 1 last semester, I did nothing but sleep through the classes. The web class allows me to work at my own pace, pick up what I can, and allow lack of sleep or other necessary courses to take precedence if I need to put something ahead of it. The Film course is actually moderately amusing, but again, it keeps me from having to spend an hour on the subway twice a week to go out to Somerville to talk about it. (Like the discussion in that class would be that great. "I ARE TEH SMARTY PANTS CUZ I UNDERSTAND MEANING BEHIND TERMINATOR 2!!!!1")
Now, if I was told that my favorite music classes were going to become web classes only, like the composition classes where I sit around and get feedback on my projects from the teacher and other students, or the project classes where I learn to work with different music software, I would complain. I would in no way take those classes at home. But I think it's safe to say that just about every college student has a class in their schedule that they're being "forced" to take. A web class allows me to work when it's convenient and concentrate on the classes that are more important to me.
Now I just pray some humorless grinch doesn't mod me down as a troll for saying I don't want to learn anything...
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
If the editor is not getting what he needs, then he needs to ask for more. This is more-or-less the role of a supervisor/manager/group leader... to find the most efficient way to divide tasks and make sure people are producing what they need to. If someone is slacking, then they need to find a way to redistribute that work. It's like the "real world" - not everyone at a company pulls their weight, and this means others pull more. They have to - if they want to stay in business. If you want to stay in business (get a good grade), those who care do what they have to in order to get the job done.
:)
For example, I'm in a 2 part group project in one of my classes. The first presentation sucked in a major way. I'm now the "editor" for the 2nd presentation, and I'm actively working hard to make sure each person knows what I need and when I need it. If someone slacks, well, I'll have to make up the difference, or get the others to make it up. I HOPE it will be a better presentation - but it's been my experience that as the "editor", I need to maintain an active role in the process and make sure I'm getting what I need.
God, I hope this 2nd presentation is better!
I checked with some online schools (*cough* Phoenix *cough*) and some of them wanted the same amount of money as a regular college. I mentioned the fact that I don't get use of their facilities, gymnasium, extracurricular, etc and questioned why it was the same price. They didn't have an answer.
As far as I'm concerned, it's a ripoff.
This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is mine.
This is particularly true of programming, which I am beginning to suspect is never actually taught anywhere, because everyone has theories about programming, but no one has any science. All that exists in the programming world are fads and baseless dogmatic assertions.
May I suggest Introduction to Algorithms by Cormen, Leiserson, Rivest, and Stein? If you like the material, The Art of Computer Programming (three volumes) by Knuth is very detailed and very heavy on the math. If one does a thorough read of The Art of Computer Programming and take the time to understand it, I don't see how one could not improve one's programming.
This message is encrypted with Quad ROT-13 to protect the author's copyright under the DMCA.
A student of mine directed me to this posting,and after reading it, I thought I would respond to it from a teacher's perspective. I always read information about the quality of online teaching because it is still so controversial, but I rarely come across an article from a studentâ(TM)s perspective. I found most of your comments enlightening. Teaching online should be a choice, never a requirement. It is a venue that many teachers are not equipped to use, so naturally students are going to come across a bad experience now and then. But that will happen in the traditional classroom as well. Taking an online class is not for everyone either. I teach online because of the one on one I can give my students. I teach traditional classes as well and I know how much more time I spend with my online students. Simply having warm bodies in a traditional classroom does not make it conducive to learning. It also does not permit all students to ask questions because of the lack of time. I use IM to communicate with students (I do so with my traditional classes as well), so they get more one on one than they would if they depended on discussion board comments and office hours only. I have to add that teaching online is very time consuming, and instructors set limits for their own involvement. They have to because it is very easy to spend hours online communicating with students. It takes hours to comment on discussion board postings, etc. I teach two sections of Composition II online year round. I wish I could teach more, but my school has a cap on hour many online class hours one may teach. But trust me. There is nothing easy about teaching online, but then if you really love teaching, there is nothing easy about teaching period. It is challenging and ever-changing. That is why I put my heart and soul into it. I am so glad online classes are available for those who desire to take their courses that way. I hope your online experience ends better than it started : )
Professor Deb Richey
Owens Community College
Toledo, Ohio
I was asked to teach an online course at San Jose, for about $2,000. I'm not a professor, and don't have a graduate degree, but my name had been passed along as someone with expertise in the field. From the negotiations it became clear that online studies were seen by the university as a money-making operation, on a par with the continuing-education classes that most schools offer. I ended up passing on the job because of other commitments although it seemed like easy money (just a few hours per week). It certainly seemed like students got a lot less out of the online course.
That said, learning programming, even in a traditional classroom setting, is primarily a student-driven experience. You don't learn how to code setting in a lecture, you learn by practicing on your own.
So, I would not want to take an onloine course in the humanities and certainly not in biology or chemistry, but I would consider it for CS. Sometimes all you need is a little motivation. Having a deadline provides that, and an online course may be end up being little more than the minimal structure you need to learn the stuff on your own.
every stain tells a story
The quality of ANY 'online' education is directly related to how well the subject material can be adapted to said online environment.
;-)
If the course involves nothing but writing/reading, or writing computer code, then yes; it should be able to adapt fairly well to being taught online.
It would, on the other wing, be extremely difficult (if not impractical) to teach, say, courses in electronics over the 'net. This is simply because really -learning- electronics, chemistry, or any of the other physical sciences requires a hands-on lab environment with specialized equipment.
Until we develop 'holodeck' technology, I don't see how it would be possible to effectively teach such courses online. However, if someone knows of a system that can teach good hands-on electronic assembly skills, or techniques of component-level troubleshooting, I would love to hear about it.
So, in summary; it sounds to me like the course you're taking, although adaptable to an online environment, is indeed suffering from incompetence or laziness at the teaching level. I would not only complain to the school involved, I would also get in touch with your local state board of education, and tell them what's going on. At the very least, they may be able to start some sort of investigation.
Good luck.
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
I teach at a large East Coast state university. I've done some summer teaching for the school's for-profit adult education program; a "classroom" 200-level course, and then the next summer an online version of the same course. I got paid the same amount both times. Imagine my surprise when I looked at the program's course catalog and saw that the tuition fee for the online version was twice as much as the classroom version. The adult ed program just pocketed the difference.
I agree that the interaction is actually better in some ways -- I require students to respond to one another's discussion posts, and everybody participates, with nobody hiding in the back row, and students in course evaluations said they really appreciated that -- but the tuition costs are a ripoff.
And besides which, I'm pretty doubtful about the benefits of being able to log on to your course at 2 AM. If you're taking online courses in order to be able to work at the same time, that sounds like a good recipe for a really crappy education and too much stress in your life. If you want a good education, please, give it the appropriate time and attention.
The reason schools are willing to just sell degrees, is because a lot of employers only want to hire degreed people, even for jobs that by no reasonable standard would require the critical thinking skills that one would ostensibly learn at a university.
How many people do you know who are stupendously competent, but have little in the way of formal certifications? How many people do you know who have a list of letters after their name, but couldn't find their ass with a flashlight and a GPS?
Now, for extra credit, which one gets promoted?
Such is life, unfortunately.
Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!