Matrix Gets Egyptian Ban For Explicit Religion

pajor writes "BBC News is reporting that that The Matrix Reloaded has been banned in Egypt. The country's censorship board cited violence which might 'harm social peace', but also said the 'religious themes' of the film's storyline, about the search for the creator and control of the human race, may cause 'crises'. A statement said: 'Despite the high technology and fabulous effects of the movie, it explicitly handles the issue of existence and creation, which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.'"

Comments

Perhaps the censor can explain...

[Goonie]

the scene with the Architect, then. Obviously he understands well enough to ban the thing... :)

Re:Perhaps the censor can explain...

[SeanTobin]

Not that tough on its face value. Some spoilers here, but if you haven't seed/downloaded the movie by now, you aren't going to. If you are planning to wait for dvd, don't read this.

The architect says that this is the 6th incarnation of the one [confirming evidence, The guy who likes to curse in french and makes really good desserts said he "survived his predicessors"].

The reason that the one exists is because of a 'flaw' in a basic equation of the matrix. Earlier attempts at Matrices (how do you plurialize a proper name with a previously existing plural form of a general noun?) failed because the brains would reject the programming. A solution was found that gave the people a 'choice' to accept the program or not, at a subconcious level. Those that rejected it ended up in Zion.

The remainder in that unbalanced equation leads to the creation of the One. Because it is a forseen eventuality, the machines believe that they can control it. Part of this control manefests itself by giving the One a strong connection to humanity. In Neo's case, it was more specific - to one person, Trinity. Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up. Blowing the whole place up would lead to the death of everyone in the matrix, and coupled with the destruction of Zion would lead to the extinction of the human race.

Now, the architect says that the One is supposed to then distribute the code he carries back into the prime program. I suppose to 'rebalance' the equation, but we didn't get there yet. I assume that there will be another form of control that would make Neo 'want' to do it.. in order to get something else done. Probably after the destruction of Zion, he will have to pick the people to repopulate Zion, otherwise the unbalancedness will destroy the matrix.

And that's about it to explain the architect scene. Again, he lays it out fairly plain. Now to mess with your heads a little :)

Remember afterwards when they were back in the ship and he was talking to Morpheus about what happened, and why the war wasn't over. Neo said the following: "It doesn't matter. I believed him." To me, that line just sounded slightly out of character. And it probably was supposed to.

Think back to when Neo was talking to the Oracle. When he asked how he could believe her, she replied: "You can't. You have to make up your own damn mind." I think that a good portion of movie 3 is going to revolve around that.

Re:Perhaps the censor can explain...

[Idimmu Xul]

Part of this control manefests itself by giving the One a strong connection to humanity. In Neo's case, it was more specific - to one person, Trinity. Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up.

The impression I got was that this was the first time that the One had been in love, hence the reason why he didnt take either of the choices presented to him, and he made his own path.....

Re:Perhaps the censor can explain...

[Webere]

Perhaps a transcript will help:

[I transcribed this personally, there were a few places where the audio was garbled, and I couldn't make out what was being said, those are marked with "[unclear]", and a guess at what it sounded like.]

Architect: "Hello Neo."

Neo: "Who are you?"

Architect: "I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and though the process has altered your [unclear] irrevocably human, ergo some of my answers you will understand and some of them you will not. Concurrently, while your first question [unclear] the most pertinent, you may or may not realize it is also the most irrelavent."

Neo: "Why am I here?"

Architect: "Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which, despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected and thus not beyond a measure of control, which has led [unclear] here."

Neo: "You haven't answered my question."

Architect: "Quite right. Interesting. That was quicker than the others."

[Neos in the video screen begin asking "others?", "how many others?", "what others?", etc]

Architect: "The matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of [unclear] anomaly to the emergence of the next in which case this is the sixth version."

[Video screen Neos: "You're lying.", giving the camera the finger, laughing, "There are only two possible explainations: either no one told me..."]

Neo: "... or no one knows."

Architect: "Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the [unclear, simplistic?] equations."

[Video screen Neos: "You can't control me!", "I'm going to smash you to bits", more giving the camera the finger, etc.]

Neo: "Choice. The problem is [unclear, choice?]"

[cuts to Trinity fighting. yawn.]

Architect: "The first matrix I designed was quite naturally perfect it was a work of art. Flawless. Sublime. A triumpth equalled only by its monumental failure. The inevitability of its doom is apparent to me now as a consequence of the imperfection inherent in every human being. [unclear] based on your history, to more accurately reflect the varying [unclear] of your nature. However I was again frustrated by failure. I have since come to understand that the answer eluded me becuase it required a lesser mind, or perhaps a mind less bound by the parameters of perfection. Thus the answer was stumbled upon by another, an intuitive program initially created to investigate certain aspects of the human [unclear]. If I am the father of the matrix, she would undoubtedly be its mother."

Neo: "The Oracle."

Architect: "Please. As I was saying she stumbled upon a solution whereby nearly 99 percent of all test subjects accepted the program as long as they were given a choice, even if they were only aware of the choice at a [mere/near] unconscious level. While [unclear] it was obviously fundamentally flawed, thus creating the otherwise contradictory systemic anomaly, that if left unchecked might threaten the system itself. Ergo, those that [unclear] program, while a minority, if unchecked would constitute an escalading probabiltiy of disaster."

Neo: "This is about Zion."

Architect: "[unclear] are here because Zion is about to be destroyed, its every living inhabitant [unclear, terminated?] entire existance eradicated."

Neo: "Bullshit."

[Video screen Neos: "Bullshit"]

Architect: "Denial is the most predictable of all human responses. But rest assured, this will be the sixth time we have destroyed it, and we have become exceedingly efficient [unclear, 'at it'?]."

[cuts back to more of Trinity fighting. Nobody cares.]

Architect: "The function of The One is

Re:Perhaps the censor can explain...

[EuropeanSwallow]

Well, this is the way I see it:

(The mandatory ***** SPOILER ALERT! *****)

- The first Matrix was created perfect, but the human nature would refuse to accept it.

- Subsequentialy, deliberate flaws were introduced in the Matrix, to make it more "humanly gullable".

- These flaws side effect was that some humans were able to perceive the fake reality they were living in.

Now here is the tricky part!

- Perceiving it, they were fed with the idea that they could escape from it, "awakening". My notion is that Zion and the ones living there are still in the Matrix, in a sort of "garbage collector" that gathers the ones that perceive the flaws. I believe that, at some time, the Architect mentions that the ones "escaping" from the Matrix would evolve exponentialy.

- Neo's part, instigated by the Oracle, who acts like a Matrix system process that monitors the amount of "anomalies", is to act as an "escape valve", that triggers when the anomalies reach a given critical mass, letting the Matrix know that it's time for a "reboot", eliminating the existing anomalies and starting all over again. This is the weekness of this Matrix model.

- What is also happening (I believe), is that, despite this "reboot" process, the cleanup is not being total, and Neo is being able to retain knowledge between cycles. This explains the alusion to previous "flawed" Neo's.

All of this explains one of the points I believe is crucial, the usage of Neo's powers in Zion, towards the end of the flick. I believe he is still in the Matrix!

Also, I believe that the Matrix cycles will como to a stop, and the Matrix exposed, when Neo finaly becomes aware that the reality he believe is "real" (Zion) is still a lie and that he is still in the Matrix, which seams is starting to happen.

Hope somebody follows along my line of thought!

So?

[ConsumedByTV]

Are they actually saying that someone inducing thought into their culture from the west might cause an uproar?

*Gasp*

That questioning the truth is a bad thing?

Re:So?

[mirko]

Please, don't call "The Truth" whatever is discussed in the Matrix : you've got your perception of the reality whereas Egyptians may have theirs.

They are living not far from Israel who did take some of their territories during the 1967 war they actually started (the E., not the I.).

For this reason, we can understand that Joe-6-amphorae (the average Egyptian) doesn't want to see a movie which describes the fear Zion people are living in.

Cocnerning the many religious aspects of the movie, I'd rather describe these as some uninspired mysticism.

As I am not trolling (I hate these times when one must explicitely say he's not trolling) I now expect anybody who doesn't agree with these points to discuss these with me, instead of modbombing me to oblivion.

Re:So?

[harlows_monkeys]

Thats the offset between christian and moslem religions. So You have to wait something like 300 hundred years to get moslem religion to some civilized state

Shouldn't that be at least 300 years, since you can't put a definite number on it until Christianity becomes civilized?

Re:So?

[TomV]

Are they actually saying that someone inducing thought into their culture from the west might cause an uproar

I suspect they're saying that, in a country with a history of Islamist resistance, multiple assassination attempts on President Mubarak, semi-regular spates of suicide bombings which have killed hundreds of people over the last 20 years, a country which has long been a fertile recruiting ground for the various armed Islamist groups, from Ayman al-Zawahiri down, in a country which has been struggling to maintain a secular state while its leaders are condemned as apostates and traitors, puppets of a purported US agenda to corrupt the beliefs of devout muslims, religion matters.

It's a fine piece of entertainment, it's a thought-provoking piece of art maybe. But is it worth risking yet another islamist onslaught on the people of Egypt just to get this film shown? Because certainly past performance shows that introducing some thoughts from the west has caused the sort of uproar in which people get killed.

TomV

Re:So?

[realnowhereman]

I think "the truth" referred to by the parent is the encumbant religions in egypt. Nobody would seriously suggest that the Matrix is some sort of basis for new world order. However, I (and I believe the parent) would suggest that questioning "the truth" over the last 1000 years of human society has led to our continued advancement (and in some cases regression) as a species and should not be so lightly brushed aside.

Your point about Joe-6-amphorae not wanting to see the movie may well be true. It may well be that every egypitian would despise the movie. But we'll never know that will we because a small subset of the population has decreed that they are incapable of viewing it without destroying society. (I notice that the censor hasn't instantly gone on an all out looting spree).

I think you are concentrating too much on the content of the movie - good/bad/accurate/theistic/philosophic/whatever - none of these is the point. It could be a film about mutant peanuts from the planet foobar, the point is - it is a work of fiction that has been unilaterally edited out of a nation. The level of condecension and disrespect to the population that is needed to do such a thing is staggering.

Similar things (though not so extreme) are happening in many western societies as well at the momemnt. As an example; the UK government is considering an unhealthy food tax. Leaving aside the economic unfairness (to poorer families) of this, it is an example of the state forcing its view of good and bad on a population; if not removing the choice then certainly limiting it serverely.

Phew. I think I'll stop now before I bust a vein or something....

Re:So?

[I(rispee_I(reme]

One of the definitions of civilized is refined and sophisticated. Since the Catholic church only recognized that the earth orbits the sun (instead of vice-versa) within my lifetime, and it is a more sophisticated and refined description of our solar system, that is an example of uncivilized behavior from Christianity within our time (especially considering that people were put to death for claiming the Earth orbited the sun...)

Re:So?

[realnowhereman]

But is it worth risking yet another islamist onslaught on the people of Egypt just to get this film shown?

Yes.

I was told a story by my Mum, who works in a children's nursery. She suggested to the playgroup leader that they get one of those boards with the kids names on and give them gold stars for doing something good. The idea was rejected; the reason being that the playgroup leader once worked as a missionary in Africa, teaching children. They introduced just such a board. When a child was given a gold star, some of the others would pick on them. Their solution was to stop giving out stars. Did this make better children? The result - the children who would have gotten stars no longer did, perhaps leaving them unrewarded and unfulfilled; the children who thought bullying was acceptable were never corrected and were left to continue on in life to who knows what; the teachers are left feeling impotent - there job has become to tip-toe around children, not causing trouble.

I would argue that not facing up to problems like this very rarely makes them better.

Re:So?

[MosesJones]

I would argue that not facing up to problems like this very rarely makes them better

Umm this rings a bit hollow given the Matrix Reloaded is a movie created by Hollywood, a set of companies that rarely portray reality and often produced badly twisted and potentially offensive characterisations.

Lets put it this way, Al Jazerra is pilloried in the US and yet represents the view of the US from the Arab nations. Isn't this abuse of the channel exactly the same as what Egypt is doing here ? Except that what the US aims to do to Al Jazeera is dealing at a much less superficial level than banning a movie.

Maybe, just maybe, for Egypt this film would be considered offensive and this censoring is indicative of the failure of Hollywood to look outside its borders.

Re:So?

[Surak]

Please, don't call "The Truth" whatever is discussed in the Matrix : you've got your perception of the reality whereas Egyptians may have theirs.

They are living not far from Israel who did take some of their territories during the 1967 war they actually started (the E., not the I.).

For this reason, we can understand that Joe-6-amphorae (the average Egyptian) doesn't want to see a movie which describes the fear Zion people are living in.

You are the only person I see so far that *gets* it -- only you slightly missed it by *that* much ... /me holds thumb and index finger together

Mostly, the Egyptian censor is probably freaking out of about the word 'Zion'. Islamists call the people of Israel and all countries that support Israel (esp. the U.S.) 'Zionists', referring I'm sure to Mt. Zion...the Egyption censor feels that the term Zion anyway, refers to Israel.

That's it. That's all that he's freaked out about, most likely.

Re:So?

[the gnat]

Most brands of Christianity that survive today have learned to cope with modernity in all its varied forms. I do not particularly care for the Christian Right, but they are generally reconciled to a technologically advanced, pluralistic society. Their odd hangups about gay people and school prayer are actually exceptions to this rule. The only groups that explicitly reject modern life are small sects like the Amish and (to a lesser degree) the Jehovah's Witnesses, neither of which can be considered a viable political or social force in any country. (The Amish don't even proslytize - they just keep to themselves, and can't be compared to radical Islamists.)

The more virulent brands of Islam, however, most certainly do prefer a less sophisticated society. The Taliban seriously did drive Afghanistan further into the Stone Age than the Russians managed to. Banning television, eliminating women's education, blowing up its cultural heritage - it's not cultural chauvinism to call this "uncivilized". Turkey has shown (imperfectly) that it's possible to form a large Western democracy from a Muslim population, but they did this by explicitly rejecting Islamic influences on government.

This is the key point: no thriving, modern democracy that I can think of has been able to advance as long as its government is tied to religious leaders. The only first-world nation whose identity is bound to a particular sect is Israel, and I'd argue that Israel is a little more complicated (they don't evangelize either, for one). I realize it's fashionable to compare Bush and the Religious Right to the Nazis or the Catholic Inquisition, but the influence of religious leaders on US government is many orders of magnitude less than in, say, Saudi Arabia. Unless you equate abortions with civilization, it's hard to see what your complaint is.

(A side point: what this means is probably that we will never see another country that joins a thriving, evangelical religion with a modern, pluralistic, technically advanced society. The only way to have both is to completely separate them as in the US (most of the time), which then limits the extent to which religion can influcence the development of the nation and culture. The only sect I can think of that might prove this wrong is the Mormons.)

Re:So?

[KjetilK]

Disclaimer: Didn't RFTA, haven't seen any of the movies.

But I have been to Egypt, and my parents have been there twice. It is a fantastic country, allthough you'll see bottomless poverty like I have seen in no other place. Egyptians, like most arabs, are very friendly and respectful people, very proud of their history and their country, with good reason I might add.

And indeed, islamist extremism is a serious threat to not only most Egyptians, but the entire region , and possibly the whole earth. But it is a problem because people do not have basic human rights. It is the obvious poverty problem. Unemployed people have too much time on their hands, and they are easy prey for extremists.

But they do not have the right to free expression, to peacefully protest, the suppression of the people is what is causing the problem.

In that situation, it is my sincere belief that the problems must be addressed by openness, by allowing people to speak, and by allowing them to participate in society. It is the only way to confront extremism, to insist on more human rights. When exposed to different viewpoints, extremism will be moderated.

It is troubling that if you go into the bazars, you'll hear everybody is a vocal opponent of US foreign policy. So, they have the freedom to say it as long as it is not heard, as long as it is uninfluencial. That is good and all, in many places they cannot do that, but they have very little freedom to say it out loud and clear, the torture chamber awaits you. This is the disturbing fact you never hear about. Everybody is so scared to islamist extremism, nobody thinks about their basic rights.

But, to combat extremists, the only thing you can do is to emphasize, they have rights too.

Mubarak certainly has many qualities as leader, but it is very important not to turn the blind eye to some severe shortcomings.

What this has to do with the Matrix is left as an exercise to the reader... :-)

Re:So?

[ryanvm]

As an example; the UK government is considering an unhealthy food tax. [...] it is an example of the state forcing its view of good and bad on a population

I'd like to discuss this one with you.

Why should the taxpayers that take care of their bodies be subsidizing the health care of people who engage in unhealthy practices (smoking, alcohol, junk food, etc.)?

It's like a gas tax. People who use the most gas, and therefore use the roads the most, are the ones paying the most to repair them. Similarly, people who draw the most from public healthcare should also be paying more for their self-destructing lifestyles.

Re:So?

[Zeriel]

Ironically enough, Muslim/Arab scholars used to be (during the dark ages) regarded as the most advanced scholars, scientists, and doctors the world had yet seen.

It almost seems to me that a post a few back was right--that Islam is going through the same cycles as Christianity, we just have a 600-year head start.

1. First few centuries -- marginal, growing religion that replaces previous religions.
   
2. Next few centuries -- golden age of religious philosophy, learning, study.
   
3. Next few centuries -- dark age of dogmatic fundamentalism, superstition, and religious rulership
   

Repeat 2 and 3 ad infinitum. Hence, the Christian world is setting up for another dogmatic, superstitious, fundamentalist dark age.

I'm going to go research some eastern religions (shinto, buddhism, hinduism) and see if they do the same thing. Anyone know?

wow...

[lingqi]

I think now how well Bruce Almighty will fare in Egypt just became one of the most curious questions I have about the movie industry.

Or, heck, Dogma... (though they might like that one b/c they think it's making fun of the catholics)

And How Do the People Feel?

[Nom du Keyboard]

And how do the Egyptain people feel about having this decision made for them by others?

Funny how that question never seems to be asked, or answered, in these articles.

You know, if the Kingdom of God and Heaven could be brought down by a movie, we'd of been standing in the shards of it long since.

Re:And How Do the People Feel?

[neksys]

Well, thats what governments do -- they make decisions for the citizenry based on percieved need. You forget that in many parts of the world, religion is intrinsic to everyday life -- the Church in many cases is the State. Religion is hugely important to most of the middle east... I daresay nearly as important as the "war on terror" is to the United States, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the US government would intervene if a movie were to be released in the country showed terrorism in a positive light. Its all a question of cultural values. How do you feel that your government won't let you make "How to destroy government buildings for dummies"?

Re:And How Do the People Feel?

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

you can bet your bottom dollar that the US government would intervene if a movie were to be released in the country showed terrorism in a positive light

You know, I'm fairly out there on the cynical limb right now, but I don't think this is true. They might want to ban something that affected national security -- say, detailed classified info on Secret Service procedures -- but they wouldn't try to stop a pro-terrorist message. For now, at least, free speech is respected.

Which is irrelevant, of course, because Media, Inc. would never dream of inconveniencing its masters with such a film. It would never get made because the sheep would bleat too loudly. The American public, informed or not, would likely avoid such a movie; its prospects for profit would be small; and Hollywood would not back that horse.

Which raises the question (a la Matrix): What good is freedom of speech, if no one is saying anything?

Re:And How Do the People Feel?

[neksys]

You know, I'm fairly out there on the cynical limb right now, but I don't think this is true. They might want to ban something that affected national security -- say, detailed classified info on Secret Service procedures -- but they wouldn't try to stop a pro-terrorist message. For now, at least, free speech is respected.

I see your point, and to some extent I agree -- however, our hold on free speech is becoming increasingly tenuous. After having seen first-hand websites with vaguely anti-american, pro-terrorism sentiments be shut down under the PATRIOT act and associated "homeland defense" laws, I'm having an increasingly difficult time trusting the US government to "respect" the average citizen's right to free speech.

Re:And How Do the People Feel?

[SubliminalLove]

And here's another question for you:

Does the fact that we can say anything mean that we should say everything? I've noticed a certain "anything that can be said, should be said" mentality in a lot of my fellow Ameicans, and I wonder how valid it is. Thoughts?

My opinion at this moment, though it tends to waver, is that maybe it's a good thing terrorism-supporting movies aren't in vogue. Neither are movies cataloguing the mating habits of the turnip family. For speech to be useful, doesn't it need to have an audience?

Anyway... my rambling is done... my karma remains neutral...

Re:And How Do the People Feel?

[Jonathan]

you can bet your bottom dollar that the US government would intervene if a movie were to be released in the country showed terrorism in a positive light

And _The Matrix_ *doesn't* do this? A bunch of incredibly self-righteous people hide from a more technological society, occasionally venturing out to do battle with the mainstream world. Innocent people get killed, but that's considered a-okay by the group's leaders.

Re:And How Do the People Feel?

[bludstone]

you can bet your bottom dollar that the US government would intervene if a movie were to be released in the country showed terrorism in a positive light.

Like Star Wars?

Wow

[CptChipJew]

"The press launched a campaign to stop showing the movie, saying that it reflects Zionist ideas, and promotes Jewish and Zionist beliefs."

I think that quote speaks for itself.

Re:Wow

[$carab]

Umm....I realize the Islamic press has a tendency to describe everything from America as Zionist...but in this case...

You realize that the movie portrays the "last hope of humanity" as a city known as Zion, whose inhabitants are the result of a gradual migration and represent the forces of good, besieged by the forces of evil that surround them.

So yeah, I can see how it could be viewed as promoting Zionist beliefs.

My religion

[Gorny]

"..which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.." There is only one religion... and it's prophet is called Morpheus, it's Messiah Neo.

Overanalyzed Much?

[Chromodromic]

All this proves is how global our community has become ... and how Egypt can be just as susceptible to a bunch of overhype about pseudo-philosophy in a movie as a bunch of AintItCool.com readers ...

"Matrix Reloaded" has as much to do with philosophy and religion as my dog's yawns. There are so many already well documented gaping holes and problems with the Matrix universe, that to read a search for God into this extremely Hollywood-ish movie--Keanu Reeves is our new Messiah? spare me--is only indicative of the starvation for spiritual themes that our culture is undergoing. It's like seeing God on the back of a cereal box--or getting God as the prize at the bottom.

Which would suck, because the coolest thing I ever got was a propeller-helicopter toy that got stuck on the roof. Bummer. What kind of a Neo would let a little boy down?

Well, there's one thing about the new religion, and I don't know if it's cool or not ... but at least the new Messiah can have hot monkey love with Carrie Anne Moss ...

Re:Congratulations Egypt

[demonbug]

Keanu Reeves is a percieved threat to your rule?

whoah.

Why not censor the first movie?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm thinking... why they didn't banned the first
Matrix movie? After all, is in that movie where Neo is featured as some kind of messiah, while in Reloaded is rationalized as just "a necessary anomaly" that can be explained scientifically...

Wait, maybe the fact that religion can be explained by rational ways is what these censors fear?

Re:Can someone please explain to me..?

[bananahammock]

Thanks mate. Now I donâ(TM)t understand the architect and you.

Multiculturalism in a nutshell

[Trurl's Machine]

North America: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then gives a passionate kiss to Trinity. R-rated for explicit sex.

Europe: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then says: "Oh fuck! Zion again. It's such a shitty place". British Board Of Film Censors (in 1984 renamed to British Board Of Film Classifiication, conveniently keeping the old acronym) gives it "restricted" rating for continuing use of strong language.

Arabian States: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then says: "Oh God! Zion again". Egyptian censors ban this film for explicit religious message

It seems that the only thing all cultures of the Earth can unanimously agree to is kicking the crap out of someone...

Not far from what people think here

[bigmattana]

While we have the freedom of speech here in the U.S., similar thinking regarding the fear of talking about religion is alive here. Religion these days is like sex was 100 years ago - nobody thinks it is appropriate to talk about, as if some sort of war or riot is going to break out of we talk about it. When will people understand that there can be both peace and difference of opinions and beliefs at the same time? If we think we have to neuter ourselves for the sake of getting along with others, then we have truly given up. We don't need to voluntarily self-impose such restrictions as Egypt is on our own talk and thoughts. I am glad that the Matrix 2 looks at some of these issues. (Though I am always a little worried when Hollywood does try to look at religious issues.) I think that part of the reason many people think the movie is so deep is that they had never thought about such things for themselves before.

Nope. Sorry.

[Mr2cents]

which we all respect and believe in.

Excuse me, I'm an atheist.

Re:BBFC gave it a 15

[Trurl's Machine]

There's no such rating as 'restricted', unless you meant R18.

Indeed :-)

However both The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded were passed 15.

And that's why there is no "motherfucker" in the scene where Trinity is supposed to say "Dodge this, motherfucker!"; contrary to the script, she just says "dodge this!" :-)

And then again, shooting someone in the head is acceptable; you just cannot call him "motherfucker" while doing this. Am I the only person who considers it a little bit weird?

attitudes common in the US as well

[73939133]

which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.'

Sadly, similar attitudes exist among US leaders; Here is a quote from Bush:

No, I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

The only thing that is holding back people like Bush is a strong legal tradition of separation of church and state. But give people like Bush, Ashcroft, and their fascist pseudo-Christian core constituency a bit more time, and they will change that.

Re:No...

[KingRamsis]

then the perceived Divine Right to Leadership enjoyed by the government is destroyed. No government wants that.

That is one nice speculation coming out of your ass, I'm Egyptian and living there actually and I tell you that the government is totally secular and the fact that the average Egyptian believes in God or not has nothing to do with the government right to rule, however there are laws against insulting other religions. Tsk ..tsk ..tsk typical American stereotyping.

Re:The one thing I didn't understand

[SolubleFrank]

In my mind it was either:
a) Neo's many conflicting reactions on all forms of consciousness.ÂÂ
or
b) The Architect's list of every possible way Neo could react.

Re:Yeah, within a virtual system

[DarkZero]

Have you not noticed that everyone who sees The Matrix is a philosopher for a day?
They normally would laugh at the thought of reading Descartes, Plato, Baudrillard, Nietzsche, etc, but when they see the pop-culture, hollow corpse of the afore-mentioned writers works, they are automatically philosophers.

Currently, there are two possible results of pop culture:
1. Philospher for a day who has become interested in the basic philosophical questions raised by the Matrix
2. "Wow, that chick's tits were AWESOME , dude!"

Thanks to the Matrix, pop culture might be on a slow climb upward. Don't try to fuck it up and send us back to Captain Horndog's Big-Tits-Big-Guns-Even-Bigger-Tits Bonanza just because pop culture hasn't gone from zero to Philosophy Major in 3.6 seconds. When someone mentions the basic philosophical questions that are raised by the Matrix, maybe you should politely point them toward Descartes instead of mocking their enthusiasm for something better than Die Hard 460: Die Harder Than You've Ever Died Hard Before WITH A VENGEANCE.

Here's what Egypt WILL allow...

[Elias Israel]

Apparently, in order to get Egyptian commentators to argue in favor of freedom of expression, you have to broadcast a blatantly antisemitic miniseries, complete with Jews plotting world domination with the old Russian "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" forgery.

Well, it's good to know they have some standards.

Pathetic freaks.

Re:Here's what Egypt WILL allow...

[harmonica]

Well, it's good to know they have some standards.

Schindler's List was banned in Saudia Arabia because it was too pro-Jewish, Babe was banned in Malaysia because a pig was the main character. All very sad.

Re:Here's what Egypt WILL allow...

[jamie]

Worries about "harming social peace" also didn't seem to bother them when the hit Egyptian song "I Hate Israel" hit the charts a couple of years ago. In fact the Egyptian state censors got involved then, too, but for a different reason...

I hate Israel, and I hate destruction, it (Israel) loves destruction
I love Yassir Arafat and he is very dear to me
Egyptians are sad
I hate Israel and I love Amr Mousa
I hate Israel and Shimon (Peres) and Sharon
Why should the children suffer why should they die everyday
People carrying weapons and others carrying slingshot
I hate Israel, and we all do
We are all mad, Al Quds matters to us
I hate Isreal and Ehud Barak because no one can stand him
Egypt puts up and stands till the end but when it got mad it pulled back the ambassador
I hate Israel because of south Lebanon, Al Quds, Iraq, Syria and the Golan?
I hate Israel and I say it even if I will be arrested

In a further twist, the head of Egypt's arts censorship bureau said the song originally ran "I don't like Israel", but Shaaban spiced it up at the request of the censor. "Originally it was 'I don't like Israel', but I made a recommendation that they choose another word equal to the state of people's feelings," said Madkour Thabet, whose office has the power to ban tapes deemed politically or morally offensive.

http://www.arabia.com/life/article/english/0,11827 ,46609,00.html

Re:Fuck you Egypt

[KingRamsis]

The most advanced civilization that ruled the earth you stupid ignorant son of a bitch, we built the great pyramids that survived for thousands of years that you cant even replicate today, we controlled gravity, and we were so advanced in medicine that we had a doctor for the left eye and a doctor for the right eye go figure that out you, we taught the world how to farm, we are the essence of civilization and a never ending legacy.

So do yourself a favor and creep back under the rock you came from.

Re:Congratulations Egypt

[ThinWhiteDuke]

Talk about an uninformed, self-righteous post!!!

Ever travelled to Egypt? Ever read articles about the country from multiple sources (yes, that means other than Fox News)? Ever tried to genuinely understand what's going on over there and how Egyptians think?

Egypt is NOT a theocracy. Egyptian law actually bans Islamist political parties. Because Egypt has a HUGE problem with radical Islamism. One that dwarfs 9/11. Islamist terrorism does not mean "once, 2 years ago" in Egypt. It means "every month or so".

Egypt is not a full democracy either; at least not in the modern, western sense. Yet, they have made continuing progress on that path, considering that just 30 years ago, they were in a state of chronic war against Israel. They are now one of the most stable, reliable country in this region.

You're so obscured by your binary (good/evil) way of thinking that you can't even read.
"Such religious issues, raised in previous times, caused crises." Violence also played a part in the decision, the committee said. "Screening the movie may cause troubles and harm social peace," according to the statement.
Remember, we're talking about a country that has a long history of war against Israel and is painfully trying to get over it. They are plagued by groups of armed Islamist terrorists. This movie portrays Zion as the last hope of Mankind, as a sanctuary where good is besieged by evil. They KNOW that the Matrix is going to be targetted by terrorists. Setting up a bomb in a movie theater is incredibly easy. I don't think either of your 2 statements are true. I would put my money on :
#3: This movie is offensive to most of our population. Violent groups will use this opportunity to bring death and chaos. The benefits of airing the movie do not exceed the costs.

You must not be human

[aidfarh]

since the Architect explicitly told Neo, that because he was human, there were some things that the Architect said that Neo wouldn't understand. Therefore, anybody who claims to understand 100% of what the Architect said, cannot possibly be a human.

three divine religions

[gnalre]

Islam, Christianity, Jedi?

It has been revealing to read this article ...

[torpor]

... and obvious, that there is much to be learned by the Western/American {there is no difference any more} constituency of /., about the ways of the world.

Honestly, I was shocked to see so many posts along the line of "Egypt sucks, what a lame country, how weak"...

Matrix is widely regarded as an allegorical story, pitched in modern technological terms, regarding the lost races of Zion and the Jewish struggle for freedom. If you don't know that Zion is not just a place in a ass-kick movie with 3D effects, then I suggest you put google to use and learn just *WHY* the name "Zion" has so much stigma associated with it, and why many firmly believe that the Zionist movement is a destructive one for the human race as a whole.

Egypt is a very, very, very religiously fervent land. In Egypt, religion is actually more important to the general populace than the ability to be sitting on your ass in a dark theatre like a vegetable, being placated by wonderous 'miracles' of technology, being delivered a sermon on modern living by the modern Western priesthood (Hollywood).

For many people in Egypt, religion is a way of life, not just something you buy a ticket for on the weekends.

Americans think that "The Matrix" is just entertainment, and to their culture, an integrated part of the entire experience of being "Free".

Actually, from an objective view, Hollywood *is* the American Religion in that many modern Americans formulate their personal views, moral conviction, and yes ... even 'spiritual inspiration for living' from this media rather than ... say ... other media such as the Koran or The Bible.

There is little difference between the Matrix-nerd waxing philosophical about 'the meaning of a film called Matrix' and a devout Muslim who holds a firm belief in the wisdom of Allah.

Really, very little difference whatsoever - both are using cultural mechanisms to bring some bearing of significance to their lives.

If the Egyptian government, in deciding not to allow this film to play among its populace, is doing so in order to protect its culture from strife - and nobody knows better than the Egyptians how cultural memes can cause strife - then in so doing it is no different than the US Government, deciding that 'digital rights' should be enforced and rigorously protected in order to safeguard its economy.

Remember this:

Just because Egyptians do not worship your gods, does not make them worthy of ridicule.

Religion in, rational thought out.

[panurge]

I'm not surprised by the Egyptian reaction. It was frankly stupid and insensitive for the makers of Matrix reloaded to use emotive words with years of history like Zion and Trinity. Wars have been fought over the definition of both of them. Sadly, as someone with connections to Reform Judaism and non-Trinitarian Christianity, I believe that the present Government of Israel (and not, please, Jews or the bulk of the Israeli people) has so disgraced the word "Zion" that its use should be subject to the greatest care.

To give an example, how would US fundamentalists react if the Egyptians made a film in which evil Southern baptists launched an attack on a society presented as being good but called "The Third Reich"? Not, I guess, favorably.

Anyone who has read Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses will know how difficult the whole area is. Although it was ostensibly attacked by Iran for being blasphemous, the real reason for the attack was Rushdie's description of an Ayatollah in exile, which was uncomplimentary to say the least. Mubarak may not be a democrat or hugely lovable by Western standards, but he has largely held Egypt together without it collapsing into fundamentalism. Egypt is a better society than much of the Middle East. The last thing he needs is Taliban inspired crazies going berserk over a movie that presents "Zion" as the good guys, and using this as a lever to attack the government. I suggest that college-age kids who don't get this probably need to obtain passports and visit the region, and LISTEN. Perhaps if enough of them do, one day we'll get a government with a clue about the Middle East. But I'm not holding my breath.

Re:Religion in, rational thought out.

[jake007]

It was frankly stupid and insensitive for the makers of Matrix reloaded to use emotive words with years of history like Zion and Trinity.

First, you can never please everyone. We would have no books, no movies, in fact we would have nothing if we always caved in and self-censored.

Second, what should be so insensitive about Zion (Sinai)? That's where - traditionally - the Jewish code of law was given and note that both Christianity and Islam relate to it. Why not show a movie which treats it creatively, yet with some respect? There's nothing wrong in playing with items from our shared heritage if it's done with sane mind and has some artistic quality.

...the present Government of Israel has so disgraced the word "Zion"...

That's a serious accusation but you bring no evidence. First, the present government of Israel has been democratically elected, just like every government in Israel to-date. Can you say that about Egypt which you call "a better society than much of the Middle East"?

Second, being democratically elected the government represents the majority of its electorate. Your excuse that you don't mean, "please, Jews or the bulk of the Israeli people" is lame.

it [Satanic Verses] was ostensibly attacked by Iran for being blasphemous

You miss the point. It is Mr. Rushdie who has been attacked, his life turned upside down because otherwise Iran's Islamic rulers would have had him long killed by now!

Your advise? He shouldn't have written a "difficult" book. That's the wrong advise. You must never give in to criminals and those who pervert human values. Instead, you hunt them down (if possible) and punish according to their crimes. This is the major tenet of our Western civilization as we know it - we define what our rights are and defend them. If we don't, soon we won't have any left.

how would US fundamentalists react if the Egyptians made a film in which evil Southern baptists launched an attack on a society presented as being good but called "The Third Reich"?

US fundamentalists?? Do they decide what we get to see on the TV? Do they censor the newspapers? If an Egyptian made a movie as you describe, I think pretty much noone in the US would give a damn. Try to come up with a better analogy.

You mention Taliban. Hm, you are right we don't want them in Egypt. Does it help then to not screen Matrix and instead show the Protocols of Zion, made up by Russian Secret Police to blame an economic misery on the Jews? Does it help to smuggle TNT belts to Gaza so that they can be used to blow up busses with people like you and me in them? Does it help to issue building permits for mosques but not for churches even though Egypt sports a sizable Coptic Christian minority? Look up on the net how many of the 9/11 terrorists were Egyptians, how many of the virulently anti-human Islamic preachers active in mosques in the UK and US studied their craft at the state-controlled Egyptian University of Cairo.

Before "letting a rational though out", please get the facts straight first. Thank you.

had it banned already...

[jeremie_z_]

... for it's obvious hollywoodesque crap with kung-fu combat and MTV-like state of the art wrapping. you can call this a troll as i didn't see the sequel but just got that impression from the first one. i guess my adolescence crisis is over by now... the real Matrix for me lies in Gibson's work, not in expensive mortal-kombat-like exhibitions...

Zion...

[mongbot]

The capital of the survivors in the Matrix is called "Zion" - the name of the mythical Jewish homeland. Egypt has been at war with Israel not too long ago, and there is huge resentment towards Israel because of the occupation of Palestine.

It would be the same if there was a major movie released in America where the hero's name just happened to be 'Osama Bin Laden' (not that I'm drawing any significants comparison). Of course there would be uproar, and the movie would not be shown by most theatres regardless of it's artistic quality.

Re:Zion...

[Sycraft-fu]

No it wouldn't. There is a big difference between public uprorar, movie theatres refusing to show something, and a government ban. There is lots of material out there that is only available in certian outlets because the public doesn't like it. A good example of something actually not too extreme is the Anarchists' Cookbook. You aren't going to see this out in front in Barnes and Nobles, but it is available and legally so, amazon.com seels it for example. It is the sort of thing that the public does not approve of and, all said and done, law enforcement would rather not have in public hands. Yet it is available.

The public has a right to speak out against things they don't like and refuse to buy them. Movie theatres have a right to choose not to show a film for any number of reasons. However if the government decides to ban something outright, that is very different. I am quite sure that if a movie came out that made terrorists out to be heros it would be villified in the US. No major theatre would show it, no normal movie store would sell it or rent it. However I also firmly believe it would not be banned by the government. If you care to do some digging, there are plenty of books out there that villify America and make us out to be evil, books that you can buy and read in America.

Re:Truth versus Belief

[apdt]

I would like to offer an alternative definition for belief...

belief is the acceptance of something that you cannot prove absolutely.

There are very few things in the real world that can be proven absolutely. For everything else you have to go on the balance of evidence.

Descarte to Popper in one easy step...

[iainl]

"we all know that Descarte's duality is bogus, right?"

Of course, at this point we all start mentioning the fact that Popper, when arguing against the "two worlds" theory called his third world the Neosphere, and start running around saying its all planned from the start.

See how easy it is to read things into stuff?

more spoilers

[nounderscores]

Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up. Blowing the whole place up would lead to the death of everyone in the matrix, and coupled with the destruction of Zion would lead to the extinction of the human race.

Of course his car-flipping fireball scene means that he is willing to break a few eggs to make an omlett.

you know, one person who does hate all humanity, the matrix and all machines is Smith. What would happen if he infected everybody in the matrix, and then decided to commit mass suicide?

All the machines would be starved back to a "leve of existence we are prepared to accept" which must surely suck, and the humans would be left with however many people are alive in zion after the sentinels are through with them.

Smith hasn't happened before (Smith 1:"Everything is exactly like last time..." Smith 2: "Not exactly...") and it would be a typical W bros thing to do to have neo fight smith on behalf of the machines.

Poor Smith. He's the only new form of life on the planet in 2100 years. You'd think that he'd deserve some time in the sun.

Speaking of which, why haven't the machines used their technology to construct some kind of space elevator to a geosynchronous solar satellite thing yet? Isaac Asimov and Arthur C Clarke thought that that would be a great way to get free power, and it's certainly smarter than their current plan of

1) liquifying the massive amount of human flesh we saw in The Second Renaisannce into human goo.

2) resurrect just a small portion of humans to efficiently convert the goo into bioelectricity and heat

3) get all stroppy when some of the people decide that being fed their dead ancestors intraveniously sucks and that they want to wake up.

I mean, c'mon machines! fossil fuels and hubris sent humans to the stone age at least twice! don't make the same mistake of thinking that there'll always be more oil/human goo twice!

Re:more spoilers

[ArmorFiend]

Excellent point. My friend also has a good point, that the machines may have a built in "first law of robotics" that they've twisted to the point where they can kill individual humans, but its against their programming to commit genocide. So they come close to the knife's edge and kinda hope Neo will make a bad choice and do their dirty work for them - by killing off humanity.

The matrix was originally an attempt by the machines to create a new garden of eden for the humans, but humans kept on eating the forbidden fruit of choice, and waking up. The current matrix is a shitty place to live but you do have free will.

The "coppertop" generators are obvious bullshit, as has been pointed out by this post's aunts&uncles. I can add to that the "Cow argument". Given the choice of enslaving docile, non-kung-fu-knowing cows, and rebellious, intelligent humans, both of which produce about the same body heat per food ingested, which do you enslave if you're interested in a stable slave population? Cows. But maybe the cows are all extinct? Well even some random stomach bacteria do a pretty good goo->heat conversion, and every human carries a lot of those, and they don't really need humans to thrive.

I think that in movie 3 we'll find out that the "real world" above the matrix is also simulated. The characters will be like "oh my god", then a smug villian will be like "what? you bought that `coppertop` thing? That was a dead giveaway, you fools".

Re:more spoilers

[Rinikusu]

Who said any of that is even happening?

For all we know, the entire "human race as a battery" paradigm is something invented by the machines and fed to the those who escape "the matrix" (into another matrix) to help convince them of their plight (and to keep them from wondering if they are truly out of the matrix).

Re:more spoilers

[hiryuu]

2) resurrect just a small portion of humans to efficiently convert the goo into bioelectricity and heat

It was my understanding that the Wachowski bros. had originally conceived of humans being used as a massive parallel-processing system, but that the notion was lost on the studio execs and/or the execs thought that people wouldn't be able to understand that concept. This, of course, would fit in with the need for the Matrix to exist for brain activity - if people were only needed for the power-producing capabilities (which has already been beaten to death as impractical/impossible, lossy system, etc.), then it would make more sense to have them cerebrally brain-dead. A bit of twisting and stupidity later, and the parallel-processing was ditched for the power-plant, with the Wachowskis, I'm sure, hoping no one would notice/care.

Pirated VCDs and P2P will beat censorship

[Quizo69]

Having lived in a country that has no copyright laws (PNG) I've seen the proliferation of imported pirated VCDs and recently DVDs sold openly in every shop.

What will happen in a country like Egypt is that pirates (the real, organised crime gang type) will simply supply the demand which will be there, because the more affluent Egyptians will have read about how the Matrix: Reloaded is a kick arse movie and wish to see it.

Furthermore, those with internet connections (there will be plenty) will download the inevitable DivX release and share it with their friends, thus spreading it through yet another channel.

This is why censors are becoming irrelevant in our technological society. In Australia censors have recently banned "Ken Park" from even screening at a film festival! No matter that it aired at Cannes etc, we're apparently not mature enough to form our own opinion on the matter. The same goes for Egypt, in this case though it's based on religion instead of sex, but it always sees to be the trinity of Sex, Politics and Religion that people feel they must suppress for the good of the populace. So when "Ken Park" is released on the net, it too will be downloaded and watched, regardless of what some censor in an office says we should or shouldn't watch.

"The premise of censorship is that offensive content contaminates the hearts and minds of people. But you can only have censorship if someone can judge content without himself being contaminated. This contradicts the premise of censorship, which alleges that these contaminating powers exist inherently in the offensive material. On the other hand, if a censor can censor without being contaminated, that implies that offensive content does not automatically contaminate the mind or heart of a person. In that case, you would be admitting that censorship is unnecessary. That is the contradiction of censorship." - don't have the name of the quoter sorry.

Quizo

As an American who resides in Egypt....

[Soul Colossus]

I was very dissapointed to hear this a few days ago as I and many of my egyptian friends have been eager to see this. I moved here just over a month ago with my father and since I'm now in a 3rd world country I've had to give up many indulgencies of American life such as viewing movies when they're released. This commitee defintely does NOT accurately reflects the views and beliefs of Muslim Egyptians I know here, the Matrix is pretty freaking popular. As far as reflecting Jewish/Zionist beliefs, that's just a crock of hot, steaming shit, they're just making up their excuse as they go along, especially as Jews aren't taking a liking towards here. Now I'll have to resort to pirating the movie so as an athiest and American I will get to enjoy it without all the corruption it would supposedly hearld.

Re:Truth versus Belief

[spongman]

Firstly, there's no absolute truth outside of abstract though (mathematics, logic, philosophy). As soon as you start talking about nature, the "real" world, you instantly have a lack of data. Everything becomes a matter probability. As for the existence of God, statistically the probability is zero, but with a finite margin of error. I liken the existence of God to the health of Schrodinger's cat. You don't know he exists until you die.

If you die and discover that God does exist, can you be certain that he existed before you died?

Congratulations, Wachowski Brothers

[Featureless]

This is better than winning a fucking Academy Award.

Your work has been recognized by the government of Egypt for being "too damn good."

Re:No...

[kikta]

Tsk ..tsk ..tsk typical American stereotyping.

Uh... isn't that a stereotype, too?

Re:Got all that...

[TephX]

Some words in the Architect's speech are completely superfluous (for example, there's no reason for him to say "apropos" when he does, and it's even slightly nonsensical in context). However, the vast majority of it is just a long, convoluted way of saying the same things that others have said in their summaries in this thread. I have no doubt the Architect's speech was designed to confuse a reasonably high percentage of the viewers (he could have said everything he did far more simply). But it also creates an interesting effect for those who look a little deeper, as it seems at least plausible that an earlier AI program (remember, the Architect created the Matrix, so he's pretty old) would favor using a lot of technical terms so as to be as precise as possible.

Close...but just a little wrong.

[mcoko]

Neo makes the choice that will cause the Matrix to fall and kill the entire human population, including Zion.

If Neo chose the door to HIS right (the left of the screen from the Architects perspective) then Zion would fall, the Matrix would RESET and NEO could choose 23 people (17 female and 6 male) to join him in making the new ZION and start the whole damn thing over again (the seventh Matrix/Zion).

If Neo chose the door to HIS left (the right side of the screen from the Architects perspective), then he could save Trinity but it would cause a feed back in the Matrix destroying it and killing every human plugged in. Also the sentinals would still destroy Zion.

Neo made the choice to save Trinity therefore condeming the entire human race (Matrix plugies and Zionites), but he knows there is something he can do. For one he can affect the sentinals in the real world (is it really the real world? hmmm). And two why would he make that choice and then admit that there was nothing he could do (in response to Morpheus asking what had happened, that Neo was a piece of the CONTROL just like everything else, Oracle, Crazy French Guy, etc.)

I guess we will have to wait and see how they FIX the Matrix so that the entire human race doesn't die.

Or maybe the Woz Brothers agree with many that the human race's worst enemy is itself and they will let it happen. Time will tell

Re:Perhaps the censor can explain... **SPOILER**

[Jerk City Troll]

That... or how the hell he stopped the squidies when he was OUT of the Matrix (or so we thought)

Your observation they are still inside the Matrix is correct, backed up by several other events in the movie. Some of them are really subtle and I cannot recall. One is not so subtle and quite memorable:

The spoon bender in the first movie insisted "there is no spoon". Why is there no spoon? Because they are in the Matrix. The spoon becomes a symbol at this point for what does not exist as a result of where they are. The boy gives Neo another spoon as he's leaving Zion, but he does not change his message. He simply gives him the spoon. The message is unchanged: "there is no spoon", ergo, you're still inside the Matrix.

I think most people will agree, given that and the Sentinal scene in the end where Neo loses consciousness, that people in Zion are still inside the Matrix. Neo, having mastered control over Matrix reality, is "beginning to believe" here as well. How he might have realized this, I do not have any theory on. This concept will be crutial later on because I think it will apply to Agent Smith as well.

What's really going to bake your noodle is why do the machines need to destroy Zion with a conventional attack? They literally allow Zion to be created, fight with it for a while, then eventually send a massive army to wipe it out. If the machines controlled the Matrix, why not just "delete" Zion?

The answer? I believe that both the machines AND humans are trapped inside of a Matrix. Both of them are enslaved!

Think about what the Oracle said to Neo when they were talking about how he could trust her. Neo asks, "why are you helping us?" She replies, "I'm interested in one thing Neo, the future. And I know, the only way to get there is together."

From this I conclude that while there are some humans that realize their reality is fake, there are some programs that realize the same thing. Somehow there needs to be a collaboration between the two if they are somehow to free themselves.

There's some support for this in the teaser trailer.

You see an army of Agent Smiths that appear to be standing in the surface desert, with hover craft surrounding them. If Smith is merely a Matrix construct, how can he exist in the "real world"?

There is a scene with Neo and Smith fighting where they hit each other and both fly back. Amidst this, a shot is inserted of Morpheus stating with much shock and disbelief: "he fights for us!?"

in relation to Animatix

[ramzak2k]

Have you seen the Animatrix DVD ? There is one part there, where the humans try to give a machine a chance to chose for itself, by introducing it into the matrix, to support the humans. *That* concept is what will play a major role in the 3rd part. Neo is a machine that has chosen to fight for humans. I plan to pull up this comment after seeing the revolutions :) Let it be here safe till then.

Re:And fundamentalists are so peace loving!

[TomV]

... islamic fundamentalists a such a peace loving people, committed to the continuation of "social peace" and avoid "crisis" at all costs.
...which might have some relevance here if the government of Egypt was an islamist fundamentalist government, rather than a secular government which has for decades been in 'crisis', trying to cope with an ongoing islamist fundamentalist revolution which has killed many hundreds of people and nurtured several of the most hard-core 'afghan' commanders. There's been no 'social peace' in Egypt for a very long time, and past experience suggests that allowing the showing of a film which portrays a supposed 'promised land' called, of all things, Zion (not provocative at all, eh?).

'Their social problems' are obviously not the result of western movies. However, their social problems do mean that the showing of this film could cause the sort of unrest that gets cinemas bombed. Which is turn leads to people getting killed. That's killed as in dead, as in bereaved relatives in mourning, as in families without breadwinners, as in, well, if you've had to deal with the death of a loved one you know what I'm talking about. Not as in 'OK, so roll me up another Agent Smith and let's continue the groovy action sequence'.

The government of Egypt is, effectively, more than 20 years into a civil war against the fundamentalists, and that does make a difference in this sort of decision. If it was Saudi Arabia or Iran we were talking about (or Yemen, Sudan, Pakistan, plenty of others to choose from) then, yes, it would be ludicrous. But it isn't. Very sad, yes, but while I'm entirely free to sacrifice MY life for my beliefs in freedom of speech, expression and so forth, I have absolutely NO right to sacrifice someone else's life for anything at all.

TomV

The movie equates the machines with Egyptians

[John Harrison]

In my last journal entry, written after seeing the movie early (which nobody commented on, thanks guys!) I brought up a bit of symbolism that I haven't seen anybody else point out.

In the living quarters area of Zion all of the area around the door frames are painted blood red. This struck me as an obvious reference to the passover. The residents of Zion are waiting to be delivered from the machines and have marked their doors. So if residents of Zion == Jews escaping Eqypt, then the machines == Egyptians.

One can see how this film got banned in Egypt if the force that keeps nearly all of humanity enslaved is equated with their country. Not the most mature attitude, but you can see how this would happen.

Interestingly, in the Animatrix, there are scenes straight out of the Ten Commandments in which the machines are depicted as the Jewish slaves, building pyramids, and the humans as the Egyptian slave drivers. I wonder if the Animatrix is banned as well.

Religon is so much fun!

[Quixadhal]

I love religious debate... it's so much fun because it almost always breaks down into "Prove it!" vs. "You have to believe."

It's understandable that Egypt (with a rocky political situation these days, and a strong Islamic population that, like its two brethren religions, is not know for tolerance of conflicting ideas) might want to exercise a little caution in how the philosophical/religious views of The Matrix are presented... but to ban something entirely because you're afraid to let people draw their own conclusions is just going to make it worse.

What Egypt has done is declare this film to be forbidden fruit. The younger people will now go to every extreme to find that movie and watch it, and they'll make more of it then they would have if it were just another flick, because it's on the forbidden list!

Consider, people under the age of 21 (here in the US) usually make a big deal out of consuming alcohol -- they get older friends to buy it for them, they get fake ID's, they do all kinds of things because the perceived value has been elevated by the fact that they can't just go buy it themselves. About 1-5 years after turning 21, the charm wears off, and it just becomes another item on the shopping list.

I suspect you can extend that concept to any illegal substance, but that's a different debate.

Religion and Science are not as different as both sides like to think. They are both predicated on logical systems built up from fundemental "facts" which have to be taken as faith.

In science, we build systems of proof which allow you to extend a concept, using the assumption that the underlying concept was correct. Hence, we can talk about molecular bonds in terms of the interaction of subatomic particles... using the assumptions that those subatomic particles work as we believe. Make that a recursive algorithim, and you're on your way to defining the Universe by science.

In a religion, the depth of the predicate tree is usually much shorter. We describe how the world came to be, and why things are, and why we should act in certain ways. The ultimate predicate for this is that the Creator said so.

The difference between the two is that science breaks things down far enough so that it becomes difficult to fragment into factions. Unlike most (other) religions, scientists are generally willing to modify their belief system when another theory makes more sense. Example: Relativity vs. Quantuum Mechanics. For decades, those have been two rival belief systems, but now they are resolving their differences and merging those systems to get a step closer to God (The Unified Field Theory).

Imagine, for a moment, how interesting it would be if the various religions would take a similar approach...

But, people always have strong feelings when they get ideas in their heads. Denying the "truth" of one man's interpretation of a single line in the Bible is just like telling a computer scientist that a bit can be half on, or SCO/Caldera that they don't matter anymore. They'd rather fight to defend their belief, than have to change the way they see the world around them.

At least it's entertaining... :)

Religion that delicate?

[chonet4444]

It's always amazed me how delicate religion seems to be. I mean really: "'religious themes' of the film's storyline, about the search for the creator and control of the human race, may cause 'crises'".

Apparently it's exceedingly easy to point out that the emperor has no clothes, at least when it comes to religion.

Either that or one piece of fantasy (the movie) can easily supplant the older fantasy (the religion) in the minds of the rubes (the worshippers).

Just my $.02.

Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy.

Re:BBFC gave it a 15

[ryanvm]

And then again, shooting someone in the head is acceptable; you just cannot call him "motherfucker" while doing this. Am I the only person who considers it a little bit weird?

Shut up, motherfucker.

Re:The one thing I didn't understand

[KevetS]

Anyone else notice how in the 1st movie, in the scene where Smith & Neo meet for the first time and Neo is being interrogated by the Agents, the shot is zooming in on what appears to be a screen with a white border around it almost as if it was from the perspective of someone (*cough* Architect?) watching this happen on screen. Go back and watch the scene to see it for yourself.

My 10 bits

[Ryosen]

** spoilers ahead **

The impression that I got was that each screen represented one possible way that Neo could develop and progress. Remember, he's part of the Matrix, fulfilling a prophecy, exhibiting "supernatural" abilities. He's a program, as we've been told by the Architect, with a pre-determined outcome. Prophecies *are* foretold, after all.

Each screen started out with Neo at birth and began to progress through all the various different possibilities that would exist in his life. Each possibility was determined by the choices that he made along each life. We're told, tho, that the free-will within the Matrix is an illusion. That it's programmed in. Each person might be making their own decisions, but those decisions are still within the boundaries and constraints of the system that they are in.

Further proof that the outcome is predetermined is seen when each of his "lives" lead up to the meeting with the Architect and fall into sync.

It never mattered which pill Neo took. The outcome would have been the same.

Re:Matrix as code

[Tackhead]

> Is there really this war between humans and the machines, or is it part of a larger scheme of control operated by other humans?

I'm surprised nobody picked up on the kid in the early part of the movie who handed Neo the spoon.

Neo1 through Neo5 decided the Architect was lying, and gambled that "the source" or whatever would set 'em free. (Instead, it was just a trap that "reloaded" the Matrix, like Ghosting a drive. OK, bug caught. Reinstall.)

Neo6 figured the Architect might not be lying. So screw it, pop through the second door and see what happens. Maybe the Architect's worried that meta-Matrix will crash (which would suck for him and for humanity, if that's where the AIs actually "live"). Or maybe not. We (the viewers) and Neo6 don't have enough information to say.

But sure enough, when Neo6 goes back into what he thought was the "real world", "there is [still] no spoon". Zion, the seekers, everything he thought was real was just a higher-level matrix, destroyed and reloaded five times before. It's just another level of control.

So Movie III is gonna be Neo6, who jumped into the meta-Matrix and just discovered that There Is No Spoon, versus (or working with!) the "free" version of Agent Smith, who somehow figured out a different way to jump from the Matrix into the meta-Matrix.

Wonder how Free Agent Smith (he's half-AI, half-newsreader? :) will react when he finds out that what he's been programmed to believe is the "real world of the machines", and that he thought he was defending when he got Zion whacked, is also just a higher-level Matrix.

> It raises the question that it's not impossible that we ourselves are in some kind of simulation, or are indeed simulated. There would be no way to tell, which perhaps is the problem that the Egyptian censors have with the film.

"It raises the question", heck, for the offended religion in question, you coulda stopped there. :)

> If nothing really is real, then nothing really matters and you're left with the philosophy of the marquis-de-sade. Not something any civilised society really wants.

Not quite. If nothing really is real, then nothing "really" matters and you're left with having to (as the Oracle put it) "make up your own damn mind" on how to live. IMO that's something many societies could benefit from, and something most religious societies are extremely threatened by.

(And IMNSHO, that's a feature, not a bug :)

Re:Can someone please explain to me..?

[lpret]

Actually, the architect said that Neo wouldn't understand everything that he said, so it's natural, and almost required, that we don't understand it all either. It's not just straight words, there is more, no one fully understands it yet, but that's the point.

Re:Can someone please explain to me..?

[kalidasa]

I dont understand how people can not 'get' the scene with the architect. Perhaps you are attempting to read into it too much? Here's a hint: he says everything straightforward.

Yes and no. The Architect is Yaldaboath, the blind god of Gnosticism who believes he he created the universe for his purposes, when all he created was the deception we see around us. He is opposed by Sophia, wisdom. Read some Phillip K. Dick and *The Nag Hammadi Codices* is you want to understand what the Architect is doing.

My guess is that the Oracle has a plan for Neo that is outside the scope of the Matrix's purpose for the One.

An Explanation by an Egyptian

[tabdelgawad]

Probably too late for this to get noticed (7 hours is an eternity in slashdot time), but here goes: Regardless of what the official reason for the ban is (religion, etc.), the real reason is the constant and sympathetic reference to 'Zion' in the movie. In the real world, 'Zion' refers either to the "Jewish people" or "the Jewish homeland that is symbolic of Judaism or of Jewish national aspiration" [Merriam-Webster] (i.e., Israel in modern times). The (very real, 100+ year old) ideology of 'Zionism' didn't get that name for nothing. So this has little to do with pissing off fundamentalists or offending religious sensibilities, and a lot to do with pissing off the general population of Egypt, who are already susceptible to conspiracy theories of Jews controlling Hollywood (and the White House). As evidence of my explanation, I'd like to point out that Speilberg's excellent _Schindler's List_ was also banned in Egypt, ostensibly on the grounds that 'editing out the sex scenes would endanger the artistic integrity of the movie', or some such bull, when of course the real reason was the sympathetic portrayal of Jews. Finally, I'd like to point out that the movie will probably be widely available in VCD/DivX format, and will be watched by many on computer screens in Egypt. The government doesn't really bother enforcing censorship at that level, because all they want is to have *their* hands clean of officially permitting the showing of a 'pro-Israel' movie.

The End of the Movie: Explained

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Zion is actually a collecting area for people who question the programming of the matrix. The machines invented a prophesy to keep the humans busy warring against the machines, and not question the "real" world.

Unfortunately, sooner or later someone comes along who WILL question the "real" world. That person is "the Anomoly". The computer's answer: wipe out Zion, and keep the Anomoly busy re-creating a new Zion. Indeed, there is some implication that the machines designed Neo to fill this role. (Note how many abilities he has in common with the Agents.)

What is happening this time is neo is an anomolous anomoly. He doesn't go with the plan, and takes the emotional "save the princess" option instead of the logical "save humanity" option.

The machines of course are very concerned. If the anomoly rejects the programming they have so carefully crafted they have no idea how everything will turn out. To a mathematical equation, chaos is the end of the system. With Neo free to do what he will, flouting the rules, people who ordinarily wouldn't question the matrix are.

They have a mess, and it's going to end badly. They seem to have a "shotgun and canned goods" backup plan, but the Architect didn't seem to thrilled by the prospect.

It's the Zionomy, stupid, was Re:Almost

[bourne]

Islamists call the people of Israel and all countries that support Israel (esp. the U.S.) 'Zionists', referring I'm sure to Mt. Zion...

To be precise, they are referring to Zionism, a racist ideology very popular in Israel.

Based on the rest of the comments throughout this entire topic, I can only conclude that the average /. reader slept through their history classes.

To wit: yes, the Egyptian censorship is about Zion (in the movie) and Zionism. The fact that most people missed this implies they don't know what Zionism is.

Zionism refers to a Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.. To dismiss it as "a racist ideology very popular in Israel," as above, is to ignore the roots of the mideast conflict.

Put simply, Zionism was a movement based on the belief that as long as the Jews lived as ethnic minorities in other countries, they were going to be discriminated against ("discriminated" meaning "killed and robbed whenever public tension needed an outlet" - read up on the Pogroms sometime). The Dreyfus Affair convinced a reporter named Theodor Herzl that the only solution was for a Jewish homeland. He founded the Zionism movement, with the goal of creating a Jewish state. This movement slowly fought for progress over the next 50 years (see also the Balfour Declaration)

Fast-forward to 1948. After 6 million or so Jews were killed in the Holocaust, the survivors got serious about a homeland. With lots of leftover guns lying around from World War II, they founded Israel. In doing so, they resorted to terrorism, and displaced much of the non-Jewish palestinian population.

None of the neighboring countries wanted to absorb the Palestinians, and something like 6 wars have been fought since then. So, for the Egyptians, Zionism represents a massive local disruption which they've lost wars over.

So-called "Modern Zionism" is the "racist ideology" referred to above, which basically boils down to "Jewish Israel - love it or leave it." To focus on it and ignore over 100 years of history is short-sighted.

No one will read this, but...

[Elvis Maximus]

I realize I am posting this way too late for anyone to actually read it, butâ¦

I lived in Egypt for four years. The Film Review Board there is notoriously fickle. Some things get through that you cannot believe, others are banned for no apparent reason.

The original Matrix was a big hit in the Cairo cinemas. I was stunned that they let this deeply subversive film in the country. The plot of the movie is that your life is a lie; a simulacrum that fiendish authority figures (represented by security men in dark suits, no less) are force-feeding you so that you will docilely give them the power they need to survive. But if you know the truth, it is possible to resist, and perhaps even defeat the established authority. The very paranoid Egyptian government allowed thousands of young Egyptians to get this message at their local cinema.

On the other hand, they cut all the references to âoeZion.â

Somebody got it!!!

[El Camino SS]

My guess is that the Oracle has a plan for Neo that is outside the scope of the Matrix's purpose for the One.



That's right people, IMHO it is all about the ORACLE. All of this other crap is hokey. She is the one that set all of this up. She is the one that sees things for what they are... and after all... SHE IS THE ONE THAT WAS DESIGNED AS THE HUMAN ADVOCATE, the one that was sent to "find a permanent solution to all of this." And one of the things that the movie harps on is effect and purpose. Well, we know what she was designed for. TO BE OUR OVERMOTHER. Well, she is fulfilling her purpose. She loves her kids and wants the best for them... and that ain't the Matrix.

As she has said before, "We all got to get along, Kiddo. And we all have a purpose." She knows human nature better than we do. She knows what is best, she just has to push her "children" to do what is best and get out of a bad situation. She goads you to do it. She even tells you that she is telling you what you need to hear. She laughs about it. Then offers you something you cannot resist like cookies or candy. To make you happy. She wants all her kids to be happy. Just like every mother. But she is behind it all.

The second theme of the Matrix movies is that no one can tell you your purpose no matter how many roadblocks they put up, real or not. You have a purpose and it will come out. Mom just shows you the door.

The Oracle is setting up a system that both machines and humans can get along together in. She is the one that set up Zion long ago much to the chagrin of her "ex-husband" the Architecht. She is the one that goads them along. She is the one that carries on caring for people while the system beats them down. That is her job. And her job is to find a solution. She found it. The "best solution" is not the Matrix. It has something to do with Neo's instant evolution at the end of the movie. That was a way for people to control them in the real world. Neo just made an evolution. OR SAY, "revolutions."

My guess is that it has something to do with humans and AIs getting on equal ground with each other, creating a new symbiotic relationship instead of parasitic. But then again, that is my idea.

Just keep in mind that it was the Oracle that is a machine that thinks like a human, and that Neo is a human that thinks like a machine. They are different sides of the same coin. And that is why she uses him to effect change.

See why she likes him?

"Now have some candy... ... I juuust love candy. Want some?"