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Matrix Gets Egyptian Ban For Explicit Religion
pajor writes "BBC News is reporting that that The Matrix Reloaded has been banned in Egypt. The country's censorship board cited violence which might 'harm social peace', but also said the 'religious themes' of the film's storyline, about the search for the creator and control of the human race, may cause 'crises'. A statement said: 'Despite the high technology and fabulous effects of the movie, it explicitly handles the issue of existence and creation, which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.'"
the scene with the Architect, then. Obviously he understands well enough to ban the thing... :)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Are they actually saying that someone inducing thought into their culture from the west might cause an uproar?
*Gasp*
That questioning the truth is a bad thing?
"Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
I think now how well Bruce Almighty will fare in Egypt just became one of the most curious questions I have about the movie industry.
Or, heck, Dogma... (though they might like that one b/c they think it's making fun of the catholics)
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Funny how that question never seems to be asked, or answered, in these articles.
You know, if the Kingdom of God and Heaven could be brought down by a movie, we'd of been standing in the shards of it long since.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
"The press launched a campaign to stop showing the movie, saying that it reflects Zionist ideas, and promotes Jewish and Zionist beliefs."
I think that quote speaks for itself.
Vonal Declosion
The Matrix handles issues of creation and existence inside a computer. How is this threatening to real-world religion? Are we expected to think that a movie about virtual reality threatens religion? Yes, it makes parallels to real religion, but honestly... either they didn't think this through very well or there's something else behind it.
"..which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.." There is only one religion... and it's prophet is called Morpheus, it's Messiah Neo.
Alan Perlis once said: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing"
This is what happens when religion is mixed with government. Their government is totally different from ours in the sense of a strong religious background that is the foundation of law making.
Plus it's a good way to keep you religion in power. Besides have one Islamic based government (Saudi Arabia) out law cellular phones with cameras?
This SIG pulled due to lack of funding. (This damn war is costing too much!)
All this proves is how global our community has become ... and how Egypt can be just as susceptible to a bunch of overhype about pseudo-philosophy in a movie as a bunch of AintItCool.com readers ...
... but at least the new Messiah can have hot monkey love with Carrie Anne Moss ...
"Matrix Reloaded" has as much to do with philosophy and religion as my dog's yawns. There are so many already well documented gaping holes and problems with the Matrix universe, that to read a search for God into this extremely Hollywood-ish movie--Keanu Reeves is our new Messiah? spare me--is only indicative of the starvation for spiritual themes that our culture is undergoing. It's like seeing God on the back of a cereal box--or getting God as the prize at the bottom.
Which would suck, because the coolest thing I ever got was a propeller-helicopter toy that got stuck on the roof. Bummer. What kind of a Neo would let a little boy down?
Well, there's one thing about the new religion, and I don't know if it's cool or not
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
You're the single silliest example of constrictive Theocracy in action.
The matrix is banned because it questions your main sponsored religion/s? Keanu Reeves is a percieved threat to your rule?
The matrix is about action. The philosophy aspect of it is not at all complex. If your political system can be overthrown by Keanu Reeves, one of two statements are true.
#1: Your citizens are weakminded, foolish, and easily swayed.
#2: Your hold on power is tenuous, and you cannot handle the slightest challenge to your authority.
.
My money is on #2.
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
'Despite the high technology and fabulous effects of the movie, it explicitly handles the issue of existence and creation, which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.'
Which three divine religions would those be? I'm pretty sure I don't believe in any of the ones they have in mind.
Now, if that included the Jedi religion, I might be wrong...
I dont understand how people can not 'get' the scene with the architect. Perhaps you are attempting to read into it too much? Here's a hint: he says everything straightforward. There is no obfuscation whatsoever, nothing needs to be interpreted, the whole thing is 100% just plain flat-out said. You know, with words.
So can someone please explain to me what it is they dont understand, and how they are capable of not understanding it?
I suspect that a lot of "questions about the scene with with architect" are actually just "questions about the movie in general, which everyone already had or had developed their own theories for, which the architect raised but didnt answer, so that you'll go see the third movie, not because you just can't understand his obfuscated answers"
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Matrix is banned cause it potrays stuff contrary to the 3 blessed religions by God (as the egptions put it) These three (Judaism, Christinity and Islam). Now further down there is a big flamebait about how the ban is really cause it potrays stuff about Judaism. Now isn't that very contradicting?
:) Come on.. Zion is from Neuromancer.. everyone knows it.. and why is everyone almost black?
I for one thought the whole Zion/Rasta image was some rastafarian thing
actually it is : The Bangles - Walk like an egyptian
On the other hand, they did use a Linux console in the Matrix....
Of course, I remember when there were those in America preaching the end of the world would arrive if The Last Temptation of Christ ever made it to the theaters.
Wonder why those people weren't interviewed about those statements afterwards.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Maybe the kid in the first movie should have said "there is no god." Instead of bending a spoon with your mind, it'd probably be a tad easier to convince the religious *insert_deragtory word_here* that there is no god.
Nah, bending the spoon is easier.
"Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
I'm thinking... why they didn't banned the first
Matrix movie? After all, is in that movie where Neo is featured as some kind of messiah, while in Reloaded is rationalized as just "a necessary anomaly" that can be explained scientifically...
Wait, maybe the fact that religion can be explained by rational ways is what these censors fear?
The movie taught us that "The Matrix" was a system of machines that enslave and delude the human race for their own ends. But what really is The Matrix in our world? I submit that the first level of The Matrix--as close as we'll get to it in our world--is not a society of machines enslaving people, but a collection of governments that enslave their citizens.
Just as machines attempt to control the thoughts and minds of humans trapped in the Matrix, some governments attempt to delude their citizens and control what they see and hear.
Ironically, the movie often showed computers as the technology that enabled the enslavement of humans. In our world, computers do just the opposite, and promise to be the technology that frees those who are enslaved.
If you're reading this in a country that does not allow "The Matrix" to be shown, have hope. There ARE SOLUTIONS.
'The Matrix' may have you. But free your bandwidth, and the rest will follow.
Thanks mate. Now I donâ(TM)t understand the architect and you.
North America: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then gives a passionate kiss to Trinity. R-rated for explicit sex.
Europe: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then says: "Oh fuck! Zion again. It's such a shitty place". British Board Of Film Censors (in 1984 renamed to British Board Of Film Classifiication, conveniently keeping the old acronym) gives it "restricted" rating for continuing use of strong language.
Arabian States: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then says: "Oh God! Zion again". Egyptian censors ban this film for explicit religious message
It seems that the only thing all cultures of the Earth can unanimously agree to is kicking the crap out of someone...
If one can read and understand the Qu`ran, which any Islamist CAN NOT, they would know that Jews and Christians are to be respected as 'people of the book.' Since Islamists are FUCKING RETARDED and can't read, they don't know this. Besides, Islam would not exist without Judaism.
Yet they like to kill each other...
"Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
Last time I counted there was only one, and it was out to exterminate the rest of them.
I don't understand, you mean they have the 700 club in Egypt?
For your information Coptics make up a huge percentage of the population there.
The question that I ask is why now? The background between the two movies are basicaly the same. It's not about the violence, it's about beleifs, perspectives, what have you. Will they ban sales and rentals of the original Matrix?
"This is you left and that's your left. This is your right and that's your right. You're gonna die!
I can't believe I misspelled derogatory even after looking it up at dict.org.
"Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
Egypt used to be a little more open minded.
sparked a lot of anger in Egypt. The government is just trying to forestall the turmoil that would obviously accompany the second movie.
Personally, I think this is totally silly, but then again, the whole cultural relativity/ absolutism buzzsaw I would walk into by commenting any further forestalls me from doing so.
I am sure there others in the Slashdot crowd who are not so timid. Let the geopolitical and theological hooting and hollering begin.
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
because of the 'vampire' thing...
While we have the freedom of speech here in the U.S., similar thinking regarding the fear of talking about religion is alive here. Religion these days is like sex was 100 years ago - nobody thinks it is appropriate to talk about, as if some sort of war or riot is going to break out of we talk about it. When will people understand that there can be both peace and difference of opinions and beliefs at the same time? If we think we have to neuter ourselves for the sake of getting along with others, then we have truly given up. We don't need to voluntarily self-impose such restrictions as Egypt is on our own talk and thoughts. I am glad that the Matrix 2 looks at some of these issues. (Though I am always a little worried when Hollywood does try to look at religious issues.) I think that part of the reason many people think the movie is so deep is that they had never thought about such things for themselves before.
The first Matrix movie was released in Egypt but was criticised by Islamic newspapers for promoting Zionism.
Maybe I should check the credits again to make sure.
I can't even tell where the fsck I am now
Whoa!
anybody else pull a rofl?
(did you get it?)
which we all respect and believe in.
Excuse me, I'm an atheist.
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
Interestingly, the Quaran does not differentiate between Muslims and non-Muslims, but rather between those who believe in God, and those who don't (or believe in "false gods").
The holy war was originally intended to be against these unbelievers. This isn't such a brilliant idea either, of course, but have you read the old testament lately?
I think the real reason they have banned it is that the city of free people in the film is called "Zion"! This also caused problems with the first Matrix film. The film makers have really shot themselves in the foot with that one!
An interesting suggestion from a BBC foreign correspondent this morning was that the real reason for the ban is that the underground city is called Zion.
Thus the matrix could be interpereted as a pro-Israeli allegory - not a popular message in Egypt at the moment.
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This film was initially banned in Norway for blasphemy. It wasn't released there until 1980 - IMDB
Western countries also have their skeletons in the closet.
This is just another example of fundamentalism at work. Regardless of the particular type of fundamentalism, there is always an underlying need to protect the belief system. It takes a lot of work to foist a set of extreme values on a group of people. Because the system is so extreme, it can easily collapse if people are allowed to think for themselves. I heard an creationist say that if the bible is wrong about god creating the earth, then how can he believe anything else it says. If your belief system is a house of cards, then you have more to think about then just preventing the slightest breeze.
Frylock: That's not a toy!
Master Shake: You say that about everything you own. You should own toys. They're fun.
The Egyptian scholars already "know" that the Matrix isn't logically sound.
The Matrix doesn't need to be logically sound to encourage people to think outside their box and question things.
Maybe that's what they are afraid of.
Then again, a cult could be started. They have been inspired from lesser circumstances.
I suppose they don't like Bob Marley either.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
There's no such rating as 'restricted', unless you meant R18. However both The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded were passed 15.
"You just let the machines get on with the adding up," warned Majikthise, "and we'll take care of the eternal verities, thank you very much. You want to check your legal position you do, mate. Under law the Quest for Ultimate Truth is quite clearly the inalienable prerogative of your working thinkers. Any bloody machine goes and actually *finds* it and we're straight out of a job, aren't we? I mean what's the use of our sitting up half the night arguing that there may or may not be a God if this machine only goes and gives you his bleeding phone number the next morning?"
"That's right," shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
"Might I make an observation at this point?" enquired Deep Thought.
"We'll go on strike!" yelled Vroomfondel.
"That's right!" agreed Majikthise. "You'll have a national Philosopher's strike on your hands!"
The press launched a campaign to stop showing the movie, saying that it reflects Zionist ideas, and promotes Jewish and Zionist beliefs."
Sure, and "Dude, where's my car?" was a strong social movie for the soviets GULAG's....
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
We discussed this at a lug meeting last night. I can't really see how this film is banned and it's predesor not. Unless it is the frequent use of the word Zion in a country where extremist members of the government talk of zionist cabels almost daily.
I personally think that reloaded has lost a lot of the religion from the first matrix film and this is why I don't understand the banning.
In the first so many hints where given that neo is the second coming (or the thousand some odd in reloaded) that it was not so much of an undertone as the major film.
I personally saw the trilogy moving towards an ultimate ending where neo is jesus, mohammed, budda and all the religous leaders ever in his various reincarnations and this one was leading to armageddon.
Sure it mixed up all the religions but the lack of a clear god figure made it aghostic anyway.
Unfortunatly reloaded made it all so in your face with far less of the undertones of the first film I am now a little worried that the white rabbit ending is coming. You know the one where he wakes up and the matrix was all a dream (or was it) it didn't work for Louis Carrol and I can't see it working here I just hope it doesn't happen.
still never mind the effects where good.
sparkes
PS. Is the zion of reloaded part of the matrix? or is that taking the p**s?
blog and junk
You can't judge the Egyptian people for their government.
Besides, if #2 is the case, then would those in power allow the citizens to remove them from power?
"The Matrix Reloaded" had a prophesy driven holy war which turned out to be a hoax, disasterous and "another system of control".
That's a perfect message for the middle east, and a message that the totalitarian regimes in the Middle east don't want heard in their countries.
If you read Arab journals, then you'll see that Iraq triggered all of the Arab presses in to absolute anti-American hysteria. All of the governments in the region are afraid that they may be next and they want maximum antiAmerican feeling prevailent to slow us down in getting cooperation.
Yes they aren't completely friendly to radical islam, but they aren't really afraid of radical Islam either - because the worst that radical Islam can do is kill and oppress a lot of people and these totalitarian regimes aren't against that at all, in fact they want to maintain a level of violence because it distracts people and strengthens their power structures. The more enemies the better, in fact! It's liberalism, prosperity and rising expectations that they actually fear.
Wrong. Egypt has a coptic population at least 6% of the total. There is also several catholic and protestent communities bringing up the total Christian population to almost 10%. Egypt is officialy Religion neutral, which leaves the government in a precarious position given their large Muslim population. There are external forces that manipulate the disenfranchised teen age boys in thouse populations. Certain Islamic groups would love to see a change in Egyptian government. The Government needs to make allowances and concesions. After all, this picture could easily be used as a focus to initiat anti-west riots. /.er need to realize that political realities can be far more complicated in other parts of the world. BTW, Egyptians are generaly very civilized and cultured. Many are highly educated. Don't believe the images portrayed in the news.
Censorship is never foolproof. Especially after people have seen The Matrix part 1, they're gonna want to see Reloaded and Revolutions. I suspect there's gonna be a vivid black market on this one. Once the DVD is out there's always Amazon, and I'm also sure good quality copies will show up for download online around that time. As long as some people over there keep thinking for themselves, there will be hope.
Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
That's the architect! Dammit he's slick, not only does he confuse us in the movie, he confuses us in explaining why we shouldn't be confused.
Zion is mentioned alot in the bible, because it is the name of the city of David. I was going to quote the verses where it is mentioned, but there are so many! If you are interested, the search is HERE.
"Ask a stupid person, get a stupid answer"
The word "Zion" made me uncomfortable. It seemed a little progaganda-ish, nothing to do with the plot, just using the word so much, drilling it into your head, just the psychology of using the word so much. It's such an overloaded word.
I'm a rabid Isreal-backer, supported the war, and am more than happy to accomodate all Muslims who want to be martyred, but really, the concept of a state founded on a religion is really bullshit.
... by Martin Scorsese is the most rotten skeleton in the closet of some western countries.
Sadly, similar attitudes exist among US leaders; Here is a quote from Bush: The only thing that is holding back people like Bush is a strong legal tradition of separation of church and state. But give people like Bush, Ashcroft, and their fascist pseudo-Christian core constituency a bit more time, and they will change that.
Karl Marx (of whom I'm not a fanboy) once said that "Religion is opium for the masses" (which on the other hand I believe is true). I guess today, The Matrix is opium for the masses.
the 3 religions are Christinity, Islam and Buddism. I'm from Malaysia, which is an Islamic country but the movie was not banned here. The Matrix ROXxXx!
I suppose that confirms it: it's gonna be a cult movie ...
The Egyptians are probably swapping hot censored CDs of Matrix Reloaded (you know, the mpg version) right now.
Here, Here. Egypt is a secular state with freedom of religion, however its Government and society is under considerable pressure from a large minority of religious zealots. This is likely a pragmatic not a knee jerk action, given the Matrix::Reloaded is already available 'underground'.
Bullshit. [Spoilers. Piss off.]
The One (Neo) is the machines' last system of control; he's the result of those in the matrix having a choice---Zion or the matrix---and is part of the cycle in which Zion is created and destroyed. Neo is the sixth version of the One.
Perhaps your friend has some different, PhD version of "nothing" he meant.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
What about Chewbacca? Do you believe in Chewbacca?
That, my friend, is just plain wrong. The Qu`ran specifically states that all believers in the one true god should be considered as equal. Attacking a Jew or Christian is absolutely against everything the Qu`ran is trying to preach. That is the problem. Islamists (notice I said Islamists, not Muslims; the difference is HUGE!) do not understand this. This oversight by Islamists is the ONLY justification they can think of to get the Islamic world behind them, and it has worked since 1948. Sad, really. If the literacy rate in the Islamic world was half of what it was in the heyday of Semitic civlization, this problem wouldn't exist. It's all a controlling mechanism, the most saddening part.
Regardless of my citizenship, its not too hard to read and decide the meaning of a section of a book. When one is literate, one can make such judgements.
Next you're going to tell me that Arabs are not Semitic, and then I'll know you're a fucking troll.
"Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
I remember the good old days where we would just shrug it off and call it a bad storyline...
Anyone else here horribly disappointent by Matrix: Reloaded?
Hate me!
First of all, I do not agree with banning movies, I think it's to the individual to decide weither they go and watch a movie or not, but... afaik banning movies is something that happens all the time, I can remember a movie made by several countries telling their own story about the 9/11 attacks, it was banned in several countries (i'm almost sure the us was one of them) because the gouvernment decided it was a political/religious incorrect movie, also here in .be the movie was only available in a select group of independent alternative theaters for the same reasons.
I don't see any difference between these facts, exept that the matrix reloaded is a famous movie in a great part of the world.
Just try and respect the fact that others may find it harmfull for there own religion/politics, as we might think the same way about theirs.
We all believe in three divine religions? Even among the seemingly small community of non-atheist SlashDotters, that seems like two too many!
--
What short sigs we have -
One hundred and twenty chars!
Too short for haiku.
This is why p2p networks are so important, to keep governments from censoring media, and help keep the flow of information going.
What was the moving through several of the video screens all about?
"Politicians and diapers must be changed often, and for the same reason."
Some other muslim countries let it through. For them, "ignorance is bliss".
Yeah there's a character called Fuck you in the Matrix. Go back to sleep lamerz!
then the perceived Divine Right to Leadership enjoyed by the government is destroyed. No government wants that.
..tsk ..tsk typical American stereotyping.
That is one nice speculation coming out of your ass, I'm Egyptian and living there actually and I tell you that the government is totally secular and the fact that the average Egyptian believes in God or not has nothing to do with the government right to rule, however there are laws against insulting other religions. Tsk
He said everything that had to be said.
Of how money hungry Hollywood Producers and scriptwriters can ruin a good series. Seriously, the Egyptian populace is at risk of exposure to 3rd rate philosophy and embarrassing Cave Rave scenes. I'd try to have it banned if I were the Egyptians.
[% slash_sig_val.text %]
Well, actually, they only have one religeon that accounts for all three: Polypolytheism
And this is (Egypt) supposed to be the most modern - in ways the leader - of all Arab countries. The government there is so frail that an action movie actually poses a threat to it's survival...
-- You people make me sig!
actually there is a quite big christian community in Egypt. THey are called Coptic.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
Apparently, in order to get Egyptian commentators to argue in favor of freedom of expression, you have to broadcast a blatantly antisemitic miniseries, complete with Jews plotting world domination with the old Russian "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" forgery.
Well, it's good to know they have some standards.
Pathetic freaks.
The most advanced civilization that ruled the earth you stupid ignorant son of a bitch, we built the great pyramids that survived for thousands of years that you cant even replicate today, we controlled gravity, and we were so advanced in medicine that we had a doctor for the left eye and a doctor for the right eye go figure that out you, we taught the world how to farm, we are the essence of civilization and a never ending legacy.
So do yourself a favor and creep back under the rock you came from.
Why do so many people just spout off with absolutely no clue? Being ignorant is one thing, but speaking with such an air of authority while being founded in such ignorance ... it's terrible.
Sadly, it also reinforces the negative stereotypes of US citizens (even if in fact, the parent commenter isn't one.) Perhaps neksys was just trolling?
At anyrate: the Egyptian government is not a theocracy. There is no perceived Divine Right to Leadership given that the government is democratically elected, and that religiously based parties are unconstitutional.
The decision has nothing to do with a fear it will shake the population's belief in God, and much more to do with feeling that the screening of the film will stir up trouble that really doesn't need to be stirred.
I was horribly disappointed by the first movie. I have no compelling reason to see the second one unless they release a "Abuse Keanu" edit of the film that features nothing but Neo getting his ass kicked(and I doubt that would have much footage anyway?).
It's an awful movie, anyway.
me too, well a bit anyway.
I don't really enojoy action. The thing I came for was the storyline.
Now, the storyline was good but there wasn't much of it in this one. Where were the suprises and tragedys? It was nearly constant action.
It feels like they've tried to draw out 2 films into 3.
Having said all this there was one scene that made all the shallowness and pretentiousness ok, much like Yoda fighting in the last Starwars.
It's a lot more enjoyable if you think you can read into it, but there's actually not a lot of depth in the end - God, Judas, the Devil, blah blah
Hopefully I'll find something new though, and the next Matrix COULD be better. At least this film has lowered a few expectations for the next.
A blog I run for the wealth
Nah, I was horribly disappointed by the pretentiousness and the gartuitous wish-fulfillment of the first part. I liked the sequel much better because it left out those.
The illegal we do immediately. The unconstitutional takes a little longer.
--Henry Kissinger
since the Architect explicitly told Neo, that because he was human, there were some things that the Architect said that Neo wouldn't understand. Therefore, anybody who claims to understand 100% of what the Architect said, cannot possibly be a human.
There is no sig.
Someone who is honestly seeking "truth" cannot rely on belief. Belief is knowledge without evidence. The stronger a belief, the less likely contradicting evidence will be accepted.
:)
Truth, the real deal, stands on it's own. Evidence contradicting ideas previously thought of as truth are welcomed. Each new piece of data is a step closer to knowing what is true, whereas introducing new data into "belief" only muddles things up.
the earth was/is flat
The folks still saying that today aren't truly suggesting that is what they believe. It's more of a way to get folks to fully evaluate what they believe they know through the experience of others rather than evaluating it for themselves.
For example, try asking someone if the world is flat. Follow that up with asking them to prove that it isn't! Sure, the science minded crowd around here might find the logical breakdown rather boring, but outside of geekdom you might be amazed out how little thought is given to even this one fundamental truth.
Fun toys to play with the masses
The line must be drawn here. This far. No further.
This is usual, movies are banned all the time, and the next week/month they are un-banned. Most of the times it's a marketing trick.
I once went into a movie here in greece called "naked lunch" by Cronenberg, it was on 1-2 theaters, and the theater I went had only 5-10 viewers. A policeman came 10 minutes before the end and stoped the movie! He said it was banned because of showing drugs, and of course the next week it was in the theaters again and the theaters were full!
There has been significant harrassment of Egypt's coptic population, especially by Islamists: this 6% used to be much higher, but many have left. I also noticed you left out the other of the "three divine religions", Judaism. There used to be a relatively large Jewish minority in Egypt, but they have since been entirely driven out.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
The Quran even specifically treat Christians and Jews better than the rest, and may avoid hell:
002.062 - Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish scriptures, and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
Contrast that with non-believers and believers in "false" gods, who according to the Quran will go straight to hell.
Islam, Christianity, Jedi?
Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
... and obvious, that there is much to be learned by the Western/American {there is no difference any more} constituency of /., about the ways of the world.
... even 'spiritual inspiration for living' from this media rather than ... say ... other media such as the Koran or The Bible.
Honestly, I was shocked to see so many posts along the line of "Egypt sucks, what a lame country, how weak"...
Matrix is widely regarded as an allegorical story, pitched in modern technological terms, regarding the lost races of Zion and the Jewish struggle for freedom. If you don't know that Zion is not just a place in a ass-kick movie with 3D effects, then I suggest you put google to use and learn just *WHY* the name "Zion" has so much stigma associated with it, and why many firmly believe that the Zionist movement is a destructive one for the human race as a whole.
Egypt is a very, very, very religiously fervent land. In Egypt, religion is actually more important to the general populace than the ability to be sitting on your ass in a dark theatre like a vegetable, being placated by wonderous 'miracles' of technology, being delivered a sermon on modern living by the modern Western priesthood (Hollywood).
For many people in Egypt, religion is a way of life, not just something you buy a ticket for on the weekends.
Americans think that "The Matrix" is just entertainment, and to their culture, an integrated part of the entire experience of being "Free".
Actually, from an objective view, Hollywood *is* the American Religion in that many modern Americans formulate their personal views, moral conviction, and yes
There is little difference between the Matrix-nerd waxing philosophical about 'the meaning of a film called Matrix' and a devout Muslim who holds a firm belief in the wisdom of Allah.
Really, very little difference whatsoever - both are using cultural mechanisms to bring some bearing of significance to their lives.
If the Egyptian government, in deciding not to allow this film to play among its populace, is doing so in order to protect its culture from strife - and nobody knows better than the Egyptians how cultural memes can cause strife - then in so doing it is no different than the US Government, deciding that 'digital rights' should be enforced and rigorously protected in order to safeguard its economy.
Remember this:
Just because Egyptians do not worship your gods, does not make them worthy of ridicule.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
It's pretty hard to be disappointed by a movie staring Canoe Reeves. I mean, to be disappointed there has to be some sort of expectation that it's not going to suck in the first place, and, let's face it, brother can't act to save his life (Bill and Ted is a modern masterpiece though, don't get me wrong). Although frankly I thought Larry Fishburn was more than disappointing: he does Shakespeare regularly, he was Cowboy fucking Curtis -- why'd he have to suck? I've seen popsicle sticks give less wooden performances. The only redeeming performance in the movie was Agent Smith, who was just hilarious.
But getting back to your point -- the first movie was a little too "gee-whiz" with their adolescent philosophy, but at least the plot held together, more or less. But after a zillion fanboys telling them how deep the movie was, and seeing press clippings mentioning their names in the same sentence as, say, Plato or Kant or Buddah or whatever, the Whatemacallem brothers decided to lay the weirdass metaphysics on a little thick in the sequel. And what happened? The movie wasn't pseudo-cryptic, or an interesting conversation starter for people who think solipsism has to with worshiping the longest and shortest days. Nope, it just plain didn't make sense. Like you said, a bad story.
... that either one of these two points are just as applicable to the United States of America.
Like America has a right to shove its religion^M^M^M^M^M^M^M^Mmovies on the rest of the world...
Sheesh. Its' as if its 'ignore the irony' day today.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Islam, Christianity, Jedi
Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
I'm more interested to see how Bruce Almighty fares in the South. God being a black man and all...
-------
"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-- George Orwell
Do you use a typewriter and then scan the post into ./?
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
To give an example, how would US fundamentalists react if the Egyptians made a film in which evil Southern baptists launched an attack on a society presented as being good but called "The Third Reich"? Not, I guess, favorably.
Anyone who has read Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses will know how difficult the whole area is. Although it was ostensibly attacked by Iran for being blasphemous, the real reason for the attack was Rushdie's description of an Ayatollah in exile, which was uncomplimentary to say the least. Mubarak may not be a democrat or hugely lovable by Western standards, but he has largely held Egypt together without it collapsing into fundamentalism. Egypt is a better society than much of the Middle East. The last thing he needs is Taliban inspired crazies going berserk over a movie that presents "Zion" as the good guys, and using this as a lever to attack the government. I suggest that college-age kids who don't get this probably need to obtain passports and visit the region, and LISTEN. Perhaps if enough of them do, one day we'll get a government with a clue about the Middle East. But I'm not holding my breath.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
... for it's obvious hollywoodesque crap with kung-fu combat and MTV-like state of the art wrapping. you can call this a troll as i didn't see the sequel but just got that impression from the first one. i guess my adolescence crisis is over by now... the real Matrix for me lies in Gibson's work, not in expensive mortal-kombat-like exhibitions...
That's the argument made by some. another interesting argument is that the machines want to wipe out humanity, but can't because they lack free will and require humans (Keanu) to make that decision for them. The whole matrix argument has thrown up the eternal "u didn't enjoy it cos u didn't understand it" argument. I enjoyed it :)
The capital of the survivors in the Matrix is called "Zion" - the name of the mythical Jewish homeland. Egypt has been at war with Israel not too long ago, and there is huge resentment towards Israel because of the occupation of Palestine.
It would be the same if there was a major movie released in America where the hero's name just happened to be 'Osama Bin Laden' (not that I'm drawing any significants comparison). Of course there would be uproar, and the movie would not be shown by most theatres regardless of it's artistic quality.
The Zionist's idea has suffered through ages, and the fact of its survival scares the hell out of anyone who hasn't gone through this generations of unceasing trials.
To know we have fears, and to come face to face with it - to learn what the Zionists has learned, could be beneficial.
Egypt's fear will be it's own undoing.
The way I see it is like this
1. The people really can't handle the movie and its a good idea.
or
2. So many people will be downloading it [if not already] off Kazaa that it won't matter in a week.
Tom
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
... which we all respect and believe in.
Excuse me?
I am a atheist.
Religion is superstition.
At least they won't feel obliged to shell out the bucks to see the sequel of a good movie and end up watching one of the shittiest movies I've ever seen.
;) just my opinion...
Yes i was *very* disappointed, and all the people I know too. Half the movie they're ranting about the messiah, the other half is 15 mins straight battles with totally displaced GFX effects just to "look kewl" (Ok, it was fun the first time, but here it is just too much). The end sucks big time too..
Sorry, I had to say it
It's not like there were any cats in the film, I see no reason to get fussy.
I was wondering whether anybody had made any more sense out of it, or that it was just merely impressive-sounding nonsense. But then again, impressive-sounding nonsense seems to be the main stock in trade of many university Arts faculties at the moment... :)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
And this is surprising because ... ?
"we all know that Descarte's duality is bogus, right?"
Of course, at this point we all start mentioning the fact that Popper, when arguing against the "two worlds" theory called his third world the Neosphere, and start running around saying its all planned from the start.
See how easy it is to read things into stuff?
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up. Blowing the whole place up would lead to the death of everyone in the matrix, and coupled with the destruction of Zion would lead to the extinction of the human race.
Of course his car-flipping fireball scene means that he is willing to break a few eggs to make an omlett.
you know, one person who does hate all humanity, the matrix and all machines is Smith. What would happen if he infected everybody in the matrix, and then decided to commit mass suicide?
All the machines would be starved back to a "leve of existence we are prepared to accept" which must surely suck, and the humans would be left with however many people are alive in zion after the sentinels are through with them.
Smith hasn't happened before (Smith 1:"Everything is exactly like last time..." Smith 2: "Not exactly...") and it would be a typical W bros thing to do to have neo fight smith on behalf of the machines.
Poor Smith. He's the only new form of life on the planet in 2100 years. You'd think that he'd deserve some time in the sun.
Speaking of which, why haven't the machines used their technology to construct some kind of space elevator to a geosynchronous solar satellite thing yet? Isaac Asimov and Arthur C Clarke thought that that would be a great way to get free power, and it's certainly smarter than their current plan of
1) liquifying the massive amount of human flesh we saw in The Second Renaisannce into human goo.
2) resurrect just a small portion of humans to efficiently convert the goo into bioelectricity and heat
3) get all stroppy when some of the people decide that being fed their dead ancestors intraveniously sucks and that they want to wake up.
I mean, c'mon machines! fossil fuels and hubris sent humans to the stone age at least twice! don't make the same mistake of thinking that there'll always be more oil/human goo twice!
Except for a few pockets in Alabama and Mississippi that isn't an accurate representation of the South.
Slashdotter are stupid and biased.
How they manage to simultneously believe in three major religions is beyond me...
Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
It seamed pretty obvious to me (ie, I didn't get confused about which door was which), and, as the architect had said, the predictable one.
Actually, the scene with the architect was the only one I enjoid, on an intellectual base.
Having lived in a country that has no copyright laws (PNG) I've seen the proliferation of imported pirated VCDs and recently DVDs sold openly in every shop.
What will happen in a country like Egypt is that pirates (the real, organised crime gang type) will simply supply the demand which will be there, because the more affluent Egyptians will have read about how the Matrix: Reloaded is a kick arse movie and wish to see it.
Furthermore, those with internet connections (there will be plenty) will download the inevitable DivX release and share it with their friends, thus spreading it through yet another channel.
This is why censors are becoming irrelevant in our technological society. In Australia censors have recently banned "Ken Park" from even screening at a film festival! No matter that it aired at Cannes etc, we're apparently not mature enough to form our own opinion on the matter. The same goes for Egypt, in this case though it's based on religion instead of sex, but it always sees to be the trinity of Sex, Politics and Religion that people feel they must suppress for the good of the populace. So when "Ken Park" is released on the net, it too will be downloaded and watched, regardless of what some censor in an office says we should or shouldn't watch.
"The premise of censorship is that offensive content contaminates the hearts and minds of people. But you can only have censorship if someone can judge content without himself being contaminated. This contradicts the premise of censorship, which alleges that these contaminating powers exist inherently in the offensive material. On the other hand, if a censor can censor without being contaminated, that implies that offensive content does not automatically contaminate the mind or heart of a person. In that case, you would be admitting that censorship is unnecessary. That is the contradiction of censorship." - don't have the name of the quoter sorry.
Quizo
Visceral Psyche Films
I daresay nearly as important as the "war on terror" is to the United States, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the US government would intervene if a movie were to be released in the country showed terrorism in a positive light.
From the original Matrix:
Agent Smith: As you can see, we've had our eye on you for some time now, Mr. Anderson. It seems that you've been living two lives. In one life, you're Thomas A. Anderson, program writer for a respectable software company, you have a social security number, you pay your taxes, and you help your landlady carry out her garbage. The other life is lived in computers, where you go by the hacker alias Neo and are guilty of virtually every computer crime we have a law for. One of these lives has a future, and one of them does not. I'm going to be as forthcoming as I can be, Mr. Anderson. You're here because we need your help. We know that you've been contacted by a certain individual, a man who calls himself Morpheus. Now whatever you think you know about this man is irrelevant. He is considered by many authorities to be the most dangerous man alive. My colleagues believe that I am wasting my time with you but I believe that you wish to do the right thing. We're willing to wipe the slate clean, give you a fresh start and all that we're asking in return is your cooperation in bringing a known terrorist to justice.
"How to destroy government buildings for dummies"?
Neo: There is no spoon.
http://www.ds2.pg.gda.pl/~colan/screenplay.htm
the thing I find most funny is that in the second renaisance the machines build a city "in the cradle of humanity" called ZeroOne.
You get to see this guy smack a fly down on the United Nations symbol as it crawls over that exact egypt/palistine/israel/siani peninsula in TSR pt1, and then you get to see the Suicide Bomber Sentinel who signs the human-unconditional-surrender-treaty hold his rod and his apple standing below that spot on the united nations shield in TSR pt2.
Cmon, say ZeroOne a few times slowly...
Zeroone... Zerone... Zairoone...
I can't believe that most people found it so cryptic that they didn't get it. and then get mad about it.
Tricksy W bros!
Here in Denmark it's ages 11+.
AFAIK, our ratings aren't that verbose, e.g. no "rated ??? for peril, violence and strong language, and three scenes of sexual content, some guy's dick falls off, or whatever". If you're 11, you can take anything right? :-)
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
I was very dissapointed to hear this a few days ago as I and many of my egyptian friends have been eager to see this. I moved here just over a month ago with my father and since I'm now in a 3rd world country I've had to give up many indulgencies of American life such as viewing movies when they're released. This commitee defintely does NOT accurately reflects the views and beliefs of Muslim Egyptians I know here, the Matrix is pretty freaking popular. As far as reflecting Jewish/Zionist beliefs, that's just a crock of hot, steaming shit, they're just making up their excuse as they go along, especially as Jews aren't taking a liking towards here. Now I'll have to resort to pirating the movie so as an athiest and American I will get to enjoy it without all the corruption it would supposedly hearld.
...and you can bet your bottom dollar that the US government would intervene if a movie were to be released in the country showed terrorism in a positive light.
11'09''01 - September 11
Mod Karma -1: I sed bad wurds. If I cep my mouf shut, I wud be at riyses.
That's Agnostic :)
What the government is really saying is that Egyptians are so inately barbaric and prone to violence that they can't be exposed to things that are common in the rest of the world.
Mod me flamebait, but it's true.
When this same government threw many homosexuals in prison, many human rights groups complained. The government replied that homosexuals have no rights, so we can't be violating their human rights...
Other facts:
Egypt gets more aid from the US than Israel does.
Clinton not only gave hundreds of M1A1 battle tanks (the top of the line US tank) to Egypt, he gave them a factory to make more.
I have been tired of this "everything invent in Egypt" belief for years now.
- I have seen discussion of archeological evidence that not only was farming first performed in other areas (mesopotamia) first, but it was imported INTO Egypt. Further, other major regions in the world independently learned to farm their own different crops. Egypt did not teach the world how to farm. See "Guns, Germs and Steel" for supporting evidence here.
- I have seen no empirical evidence whatsoever presented to me in any way that there was ever any Egyptian control of gravity.
- You built the pyramids. An admitted accomplishment, but what do they do? They can be seen from space. So can the great wall of China. It kept out barbarians. The pyramids....well, you can see them from space.
It all reminds me of the father from "Big Fat Greek Wedding" claiming that every word comes from Greek.
This is just a bunch of self hating religious nonsence. Let them all go to the grave they live for.
Precisely! The coolest part of the movie relates to what you were saying.
Neo "Something feels different"
Then he precedes to stop the sentinels in "real life".
Hmmm...interesting, isn't it? Those in the matrix have a "choice", but choice is "merely an illusion between those who have power and those who do not". Zion is part of the Matrix! Picture the "Matrix" as been a little "for loop" inside of a bigger matrix.
I can't wait for Novemember.
PHd's don't mean anything, if you get them in a useless subject.
As a slight aside, Neo is always the "One" because when he talks to the architect one of the monitors says "There were three before me!" or something to that effect.
--Joey
For your information, Coptics aren't exactly having as great a time living there as Muslims do...
"The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
Yes, because even w/o the influences of the great satan of the west, islamic fundamentalists a such a peace loving people, committed to the continuation of "social peace" and avoid "crisis" at all costs. The area isn't exactly reknown for embracing freedom of thought - or even freedom in general. To suggest that their social problems are the result of western movies (which aren't even being allowed to be shown) is ludicrous. It's always easier to blame your inadequacies upon others.
I believe the images portrayed in ***Egyptian*** news. Y'know, the state sponsored newspapers being choke full of antisemitic stuff, TV showing programs based on "protocols of zionist elders", etc... Somehow, "cultured" isn't the first word which springs to mind.
"The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
Now they exposed themselves!
I guess the core must be in one of those tech buildings that we mere mortals call pyramids.
Go get 'em.
-- I love the smell of Blue Screens in the morning.
This is better than winning a fucking Academy Award.
Your work has been recognized by the government of Egypt for being "too damn good."
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
Uh... isn't that a stereotype, too?
Sadly it is not a culture of today.
Today the tribes of the area are too busy killing each other in the name of a dozen religions. They're too busy filling their souls with hate and killing off the dissenters with the odd ideas which will become the next medicine or math or a myriad of other futures. They're too busy protecting their own stuff/turf/wealth/power to worry about what could be.
At the moment, Egypt is a poor, misguided, 3rd world nation that has neighbors that are similarly misguided 3rd world nations (including Israel). Until the hate stops, that is the only way it will be.
It is a horrible waste for all.
-- Multics
Neo makes the choice that will cause the Matrix to fall and kill the entire human population, including Zion.
If Neo chose the door to HIS right (the left of the screen from the Architects perspective) then Zion would fall, the Matrix would RESET and NEO could choose 23 people (17 female and 6 male) to join him in making the new ZION and start the whole damn thing over again (the seventh Matrix/Zion).
If Neo chose the door to HIS left (the right side of the screen from the Architects perspective), then he could save Trinity but it would cause a feed back in the Matrix destroying it and killing every human plugged in. Also the sentinals would still destroy Zion.
Neo made the choice to save Trinity therefore condeming the entire human race (Matrix plugies and Zionites), but he knows there is something he can do. For one he can affect the sentinals in the real world (is it really the real world? hmmm). And two why would he make that choice and then admit that there was nothing he could do (in response to Morpheus asking what had happened, that Neo was a piece of the CONTROL just like everything else, Oracle, Crazy French Guy, etc.)
I guess we will have to wait and see how they FIX the Matrix so that the entire human race doesn't die.
Or maybe the Woz Brothers agree with many that the human race's worst enemy is itself and they will let it happen. Time will tell
www.fotoforay.com
Have they band Stargate. That show is pure blasfamy (sp?) on there ancient Gods.
www.fotoforay.com
...the Egyptian censorship board is extremely stupid. If they think a movie is going to cause unrest, then their society already has deep problems that need addressing. If a movie causes a personal crisis, then the viewer already has issues. If they're that bigoted, let them miss out. Frell 'em.
-- I am. Therefore, I think!
Y'know, cut just one zero out of that first sentence and you could be talking about the US
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
I hate to do this but did anyone else think of programming parallels during this film? Imaging Neo as a bug or an access violation propagating through the system. The result perhaps of a hideous hack to make it work. The whole scene with the Architect is then just exception handling. A giant try..catch statement if you will. Like you say, perhaps Zion then exists as part of the rest of the program, but what is the program? Is there really this war between humans and the machines, or is it part of a larger scheme of control operated by other humans? In this context it's impossible to know who really is pulling the strings, and how many layers of indirection there really are. It raises the question that it's not impossible that we ourselves are in some kind of simulation, or are indeed simulated. There would be no way to tell, which perhaps is the problem that the Egyptian censors have with the film. If nothing really is real, then nothing really matters and you're left with the philosophy of the marquis-de-sade. Not something any civilised society really wants.
You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
While assassination has been glamorized in movies I don't think terrorism per se is there yet. Though I don't know what's playing in Palestine this week..
I wonder if Egyptians can search for "Buddhism" on Google
--
The Bailiwick - DESIGNHUB2005
... why i'm happy where i live.
i cant seem to come up with a sig.
dms0
-= world leaders choose world leaders not us, not a democracy, not a revolution! =-
Well, speaking from Alabama, I went to see Bruce Almighty on the opening weekend in which all shows for the night sold out. I liked it, everyone with me liked it, as far as I could tell everyone in the theater liked it (I didn't hear any boos or negative comments). I think people need to get over the Hollywood vision of the South. But I guess if everyone knew what it was really like, they'd be disappointed because they'd have one less thing to bitch about or make fun of.
This space for rent.
Well you are a typical AC I shouldn't waste the time replying to you...but anyway maybe the others will benefit.
You make me laugh, really you are so shallow, the material things you are talking about were going to be invented anyway it was a matter of establishing a suitable environment, what if I told you now that the whole spiritual doctrine of the founding fathers of America is based on the Egyptian theology?
The symbol of the Egyptian God of Light is printed on the one dollar bill (the pyramid with the all seeing eye), the same symbol was printed on the early flag of the confederacy, I'm just too lazy to google out the links
You also forgot to mention that American invented the double cheese burger....DUHHH
That... or how the hell he stopped the squidies when he was OUT of the Matrix (or so we thought)
Your observation they are still inside the Matrix is correct, backed up by several other events in the movie. Some of them are really subtle and I cannot recall. One is not so subtle and quite memorable:
The spoon bender in the first movie insisted "there is no spoon". Why is there no spoon? Because they are in the Matrix. The spoon becomes a symbol at this point for what does not exist as a result of where they are. The boy gives Neo another spoon as he's leaving Zion, but he does not change his message. He simply gives him the spoon. The message is unchanged: "there is no spoon", ergo, you're still inside the Matrix.
I think most people will agree, given that and the Sentinal scene in the end where Neo loses consciousness, that people in Zion are still inside the Matrix. Neo, having mastered control over Matrix reality, is "beginning to believe" here as well. How he might have realized this, I do not have any theory on. This concept will be crutial later on because I think it will apply to Agent Smith as well.
What's really going to bake your noodle is why do the machines need to destroy Zion with a conventional attack? They literally allow Zion to be created, fight with it for a while, then eventually send a massive army to wipe it out. If the machines controlled the Matrix, why not just "delete" Zion?
The answer? I believe that both the machines AND humans are trapped inside of a Matrix. Both of them are enslaved!
Think about what the Oracle said to Neo when they were talking about how he could trust her. Neo asks, "why are you helping us?" She replies, "I'm interested in one thing Neo, the future. And I know, the only way to get there is together."
From this I conclude that while there are some humans that realize their reality is fake, there are some programs that realize the same thing. Somehow there needs to be a collaboration between the two if they are somehow to free themselves.
There's some support for this in the teaser trailer.
You see an army of Agent Smiths that appear to be standing in the surface desert, with hover craft surrounding them. If Smith is merely a Matrix construct, how can he exist in the "real world"?
There is a scene with Neo and Smith fighting where they hit each other and both fly back. Amidst this, a shot is inserted of Morpheus stating with much shock and disbelief: "he fights for us!?"
Join Tor today!
Have you seen the Animatrix DVD ? There is one part there, where the humans try to give a machine a chance to chose for itself, by introducing it into the matrix, to support the humans. *That* concept is what will play a major role in the 3rd part. Neo is a machine that has chosen to fight for humans. I plan to pull up this comment after seeing the revolutions :) Let it be here safe till then.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
That wasn't a ballistic missile plant--it makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites. "Bowling for Columbine" wasn't a documentary, it was a mockumentary like "This is Spinal Tap". Read the truth here.
On the internet, no one knows you're a frog.
Muslims are required to believe a number of "Christian" prophets, including both Jesus and John the baptist, and to study the books of these prophets. In my experience most Muslims are well versed in the Bible and Christian philosophy.
The idea of exterminating non-believers is certainly not central to the Muslim religion. There are words in the Quran that do not look favourably on other religions, but a look through the Bible can reveal similar harsh words.
The problem is that all major religious works can be interpreted in many ways. There is very little that the Church of England (with no known terrorist wing) has in common with the Lebanese Christian terrorists, equally most Muslims are as far removed from Al Quida.
The problem is that hatred, misunderstanding and cynical governments can drive people of all religions into the arms of extreemist clerics. By coming out with statements like "Islam and Muslims, for whome the idea of exterminting all non-believers is CENTRAL to their religion." you are sadly perpetuating this processed, if people feel persecuted they may look to the wrong leaders for solace and understanding and reconciliation are always harder than preaching hate.
It feels like they've tried to draw out 2 films into 3.
:-/
True, and yet, at the same time it feels like they've tried to squeeze too much in, in some respects.... I've just finished my finals and I didn't want to have to juggle all that in my head.
The first movie addressed some interesting issues, had a good plot, and mixed them with visuals that give eye-candy a good name. I can forgive fundamental plot flaws because it was just such a damn original movie... but it wasn't half as 'deep' as your average 15-year-old would like to believe.
I think my problem with this one may have been my determination to see it 'cold', i.e. avoiding almost everything that may have given anything away beyond the basic plot... bit confusing in parts, but that seemed to be as much because the film was much less coherent than its predecessor, as to the complex plot.
And what was the first half about? It felt like a totally different movie to the first- an expensive spinoff centering around Zion more than the Matrix itself. Too slow and pseudo-biblical, and the 'rave' scene was definitely out of place and inappropriate.
Grr... grumble, mutter.... I could go on about this.
Actually, it wasn't that bad a movie; in fact, I'd say it was still pretty damn enjoyable, given that I was prepared to be disappointed (more so, having seen two two-star ratings given). But it's definitely got a much less "tight" feel to the original.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
Isn't it stereotypical to acuse someone who stereotypes as being stereotypical when they... wait, I'm think I'm trapped in an infinite loop now. Nevermind.
This space for rent.
Well, I've got 20/400 vision, I'd be lucky to see them standing right next to them.
This space for rent.
I was wondering whether anybody had made any more sense out of it, or that it was just merely impressive-sounding nonsense.
Ever have one of those geek dreams where you're watching your favourite TV show, but because it's a dream, it's fundamentally different and doesn't feel like you'd expect it to turn out, because it's more about your subconcious?
While I was watching the architect scene, it felt just like I'd expect a dream to, where the dream was seeing The Matrix Reloaded; possibly because it was unclear whether it was deep, convuluted, or merely nonsensical (dream-logic feels deep, but it's ultimately convulted nonsense). Strange.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
The banning is retarded. ...NO! THAT'S WRONG!
....Although the Teletubbies...I think we can all agree the Teletubbies ARE gay.
Its always done under the assumption that people can't think for themselves, and need someone else telling them what's right and wrong for them, and what they should and should not believe/do/watch/participate in.
YOU MUST BE THIS WAY!
I SMITHE THEE!
What next?
Uh oh! Pooh's searching for another great pot of honey! Uh oh! he got stuck in another tree!
That must be a metaphor for budist religious efforts towards attaining a state of nirvana! And the tree must represent THE MAN putting him down and keeping him from his goals!
Give me a break.
Some people have to stop reading too much into things.
Harry Potter is not totally unholy attempt to push children towards the ucult.
Elmo's vibrations when tickled are not orgasmic in any nature.
Dumb...plain dumb.
Why? Becuase charing $8.25 for watching a poor designed computer game with MTV-like action style is way too fucking much. U.S. government and BBB constantly go after businesses which have false advertising, poor service, and lack customer satisfaction; its about the time Hollywood became one of the targets becuase of the crap it tries to shove our throats on a regular basis.
I can't belive that somebody managed to stretch Matrix Reloaded into 138 minute long horror show that lacked plot and included completely useless scenes of sex, dancing, and nonsense. I don't know about you guys, but that flick was a total insult to Matrix fans world wide... I just wish my sys. admin were a hot girl who would trade me root passwords (or something like that) for kisses.
In north american culture the human naked body is a bad thing, and as a result, "to protect children", any movie with human naked body in it has all kind of restriction around it and around who can rent it, what time it can be aired etc....
There are still culture around the world (although less and less) where people just walk around naked. Last I have heard, the children in those culture are completely normal, and haven't turned blind for seeing nudity.
Another one you could look at is drugs, some very bad drugs responsible for thousand of deaths per year are legal (eg: alcohol), yet others which do not seem to be as harmfull aren't...
So in Egypt they have a thing about religion...
Hmm... I'm going to have to hunt for that teaser online now so I can see for myself - it'd seem to support a theory that's been brewing in the back of my head for a few days now (that I'll admit might be a bit far-fetched, but I think would be rather cool anyway). That Smith is, in fact, the One.
:)
Now before you call me crazy, remember that in the first film, the Oracle tell Neo that he isn't the one - Neo just doesn't tell anyone else this. I'm not exactly sure how Neo's powers would be explained, but I have a feeling the "melding" with Smith may very well be to blame.
Now here's where my bit of somewhat backwards reasoning comes to play - the other thing of note in the first film is the fact that Smith admits that he hates the Matrix. He wants out, but he's quite literally a part of it. He's already taken over a human body in the "real" world, but in order for it to survive and for him to escape the Matrix, the Matrix would have to be destroyed. So it's quite possible (in my mind) that Smith may end up being the catalyst in a reaction that destroys the Matrix. I'm interested in finding out, if nothing else.
In the living quarters area of Zion all of the area around the door frames are painted blood red. This struck me as an obvious reference to the passover. The residents of Zion are waiting to be delivered from the machines and have marked their doors. So if residents of Zion == Jews escaping Eqypt, then the machines == Egyptians.
One can see how this film got banned in Egypt if the force that keeps nearly all of humanity enslaved is equated with their country. Not the most mature attitude, but you can see how this would happen.
Interestingly, in the Animatrix, there are scenes straight out of the Ten Commandments in which the machines are depicted as the Jewish slaves, building pyramids, and the humans as the Egyptian slave drivers. I wonder if the Animatrix is banned as well.
Lasers Controlled Games!
an unfortunate comment on today's islamic society? get real you racist fuck!
I think it depends on which area of the south you're in. I live in a "metro" area of Georgia, and things aren't really that bad here (though there are still ignorant, racist morons running around). However, if you move out to the rural areas of the state, it's really appalling how deeply engrained racism still is there. Just personal experience, YMMV.
Evidently you didn't get the point. He very obviously wasn't pushing any beliefs on anyone, but was was pushing equal rights on everyone -- rights to spend your time like you want, the right to watch a fucking movie.
I have no obligation to mind my own business. If you don't want me in your business, don't interact with me.
and we didn't read the bible in school, perchance. It must suck to live in a country where the seperation of Church and State isn't honored;)
"If you're thinking what I'm thinking, you're right." -
I love religious debate... it's so much fun because it almost always breaks down into "Prove it!" vs. "You have to believe."
:)
It's understandable that Egypt (with a rocky political situation these days, and a strong Islamic population that, like its two brethren religions, is not know for tolerance of conflicting ideas) might want to exercise a little caution in how the philosophical/religious views of The Matrix are presented... but to ban something entirely because you're afraid to let people draw their own conclusions is just going to make it worse.
What Egypt has done is declare this film to be forbidden fruit. The younger people will now go to every extreme to find that movie and watch it, and they'll make more of it then they would have if it were just another flick, because it's on the forbidden list!
Consider, people under the age of 21 (here in the US) usually make a big deal out of consuming alcohol -- they get older friends to buy it for them, they get fake ID's, they do all kinds of things because the perceived value has been elevated by the fact that they can't just go buy it themselves. About 1-5 years after turning 21, the charm wears off, and it just becomes another item on the shopping list.
I suspect you can extend that concept to any illegal substance, but that's a different debate.
Religion and Science are not as different as both sides like to think. They are both predicated on logical systems built up from fundemental "facts" which have to be taken as faith.
In science, we build systems of proof which allow you to extend a concept, using the assumption that the underlying concept was correct. Hence, we can talk about molecular bonds in terms of the interaction of subatomic particles... using the assumptions that those subatomic particles work as we believe. Make that a recursive algorithim, and you're on your way to defining the Universe by science.
In a religion, the depth of the predicate tree is usually much shorter. We describe how the world came to be, and why things are, and why we should act in certain ways. The ultimate predicate for this is that the Creator said so.
The difference between the two is that science breaks things down far enough so that it becomes difficult to fragment into factions. Unlike most (other) religions, scientists are generally willing to modify their belief system when another theory makes more sense. Example: Relativity vs. Quantuum Mechanics. For decades, those have been two rival belief systems, but now they are resolving their differences and merging those systems to get a step closer to God (The Unified Field Theory).
Imagine, for a moment, how interesting it would be if the various religions would take a similar approach...
But, people always have strong feelings when they get ideas in their heads. Denying the "truth" of one man's interpretation of a single line in the Bible is just like telling a computer scientist that a bit can be half on, or SCO/Caldera that they don't matter anymore. They'd rather fight to defend their belief, than have to change the way they see the world around them.
At least it's entertaining...
That's what I have to say about religious fanatics who suppress information simply because it doesn't fit their ideals.
:)
I'm religious myself, but I don't understand how someone can make an informed choice about what they want to believe in without knowing all of the options. I guess some would consider my beliefs to be "impure" because I do not constrain myself to one strict doctrine, but I consider myself to be better off because of it. (Interestingly enough, my view of "God" isn't bothered by the idea of the universe being a simulation. I think it's interesting!)
On the other hand, I can see the point in limiting the exposure of minors to sexual and violent material, primarily violence, because there's really nothing wrong with sex (unless it's unconsentingly violent...).
I do understand why religious people want to suppress exposure to other religions. It's because they're afraid that people will choose one of the alternatives. Mostly because they know their beliefs won't stand up to objective scrutiny.
It's always amazed me how delicate religion seems to be. I mean really: "'religious themes' of the film's storyline, about the search for the creator and control of the human race, may cause 'crises'".
Apparently it's exceedingly easy to point out that the emperor has no clothes, at least when it comes to religion.
Either that or one piece of fantasy (the movie) can easily supplant the older fantasy (the religion) in the minds of the rubes (the worshippers).
Just my $.02.
Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy.
That is an excellent point and one I'm surprised hasn't been made more frequently.
It sort of amazes me, how people have been whining for years about the lack of intelligent discourse in action movies. Finally we get something that, while possibly on the level of freshman philosophy (possibly; I don't agree), is certainly a damn sight more thoughtful and provoking than any Bruckheimer-fuelled tripe.
BTW, there is another Die Hard planned, and the tentative title is... Die Hard 4: Die Hardest. So you're not far off.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
Haven't you learned anything yet? The Architect told Neo only what he (or He?) wanted Neo to hear. :)
Still lots of space for theories on the "real" intent.
Well being Egyptian I'm certainly more qualified to judge that more than you, I live in Egypt and we are all Coptic here some of us are Muslims and some are Christian, being Coptic is about ethnicity not religion.
When Islam spread to Egypt some people willingly converted and others remained Christian which tells a lot about the tolerance of Islam, if Muslims simply killed all those who disagree with them there will be no Christians in Egypt today.
I will throw in another piece of information there are some big families that have a common ancestor and both Christian and Muslim branches of the same family.
Apparently, nobody realized that All American movies were banned in Egypt right after "Dude, Where's My Car?"
which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in
How can a person believe in all three religions?
I mean, a religion addresses every issue, even if it is, "We can't understand that now, only an infinite [G/g]od can" or some type of metaphysical "such a question is meaningless since there is no reality blah blah blah".
But in order to have three religions there has to be some distinction, and that distinction would lie in how these issues are addressed. And a person can't believe in two or more distinct/separate "answers" to the same issue since one would negate the other.
Yes, the Matrix does deal with philosophical issuses; however, it doesn't expand or deepen any of them - it just uses them as a basis for what could be a very entertaining scifi movie, if people would stop treating it like Le Mythe de Sisyphe or something.
I would never call a philiosophical textbook philosophy itself, because it doesn't raise any new questions or viewpoints - it just conveniently presents and summarizes what other people have already pondered. Same with the Matrix..the philosophical underpinnings are really interesting, and do make the movies really good, but they aren't new; it's a thought-provoking movie, but there isn't some novel new philosophy that the Wachowski brothers have come up with, as a lot of people on here seem to think.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
atheist or even Jedi we got something for everyone :-)
When Islam spread to Egypt some people willingly converted and others remained Christian which tells a lot about the tolerance of Islam
It says at least as much about the tolerance of Christianity, that a Christian populace of that era (when freedom of religion wasn't necessarily understood to be a good thing) would allow the Muslim influence to enter their country.
The fact of the matter is that, historically, neither Christianity nor Islam have the market cornered on either tolerance or repression.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
launching a "crusade" against afghanistan. Oops.
Please show us these statistics? 95 %? In Egypt, a secular country with a diverse religious structure?
I was planning a trip to Egypt to watch the Matrix Reloaded. :(
They are living not far from Israel who did take some of their territories during the 1967 war they actually started (the E., not the I.).
Bullshit. The '67 war was a war of agression launched by the Israelis in a territory grabbing exercise, which they tried to justify by saying the Egyptians were getting ready to attack them. Senior Israeli leaders have since quietly admitted that the Egyptians were not planning an attack.
You're using her as bait, Master!
It could be that people are really used for their processing power, Neo's day job was writting code, it makes more sense than as a power source.
Onward to the Aether Sphere!
Ok, I have two problems with your theory as is:
the Oracle tell Neo that he isn't the one - Neo just doesn't tell anyone else this
Yes he does. He tells Trinity and Tank before he goes to save Morpheus and he tries to tell Morpheus after they save him. That is when Morpheus replies that the Oracle only told him what he needed to hear.
I'm not exactly sure how Neo's powers would be explained, but I have a feeling the "melding" with Smith may very well be to blame.
Except that Neo exhibits his powers BEFORE the melding with Smith. He stopped all the bullets in mid-air and he fought and beat Smith one handed with his increased speed. THEN he does the "meld with Smith" thing.
Okay, I'll admit, I was previously unclear on the concept of Zionism. I tried to google for 'Zion' and came up with nothing but a bunch of Christian churches. Maybe I should have googled for 'Zionism'. ;)
My journal has hot
wow!! 95%
I'm Egyptian and you sir are full of shit.
I didn't even think about that (I was too busy wading through the Architect's speech). I knew I had heard the name of Meruvingian before, but couldn't pinpoint where. Too bad this is a few too many layers deep in the discussions...its worth modding up.
The Oracle never tells Neo he isn't the one. Go watch the scene again and listen more carefully to her words. She tells him what he needed to hear, just like Morpheus said.
Think about how the story would be different if she flat-out said he was the one (when he still didn't believe it yet), or flat-out told him he was not (without telling him he would have to choose between his own life and Morpheus').
Banning a movie because of something like religion, just really shows the lack of belief and instability of the religions that surround these people...I believe all people can believe in what they want and I believe in karma but if you let a religion take over any artistic or creative decisions you have truly become one of what I and many others call a sheep...
Then the Emperor has already won.
Not showing the film because fundamentalists _might_ react to it is absurd. That sort of rhetoric only substantiates their violent methods--giving in without any struggle at all.
** spoilers ahead **
The impression that I got was that each screen represented one possible way that Neo could develop and progress. Remember, he's part of the Matrix, fulfilling a prophecy, exhibiting "supernatural" abilities. He's a program, as we've been told by the Architect, with a pre-determined outcome. Prophecies *are* foretold, after all.
Each screen started out with Neo at birth and began to progress through all the various different possibilities that would exist in his life. Each possibility was determined by the choices that he made along each life. We're told, tho, that the free-will within the Matrix is an illusion. That it's programmed in. Each person might be making their own decisions, but those decisions are still within the boundaries and constraints of the system that they are in.
Further proof that the outcome is predetermined is seen when each of his "lives" lead up to the meeting with the Architect and fall into sync.
It never mattered which pill Neo took. The outcome would have been the same.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
And those three religions would be...let's see...Discordianism, Deism, and....I know, Jedi! ^_^
Shimatta
Hail Eris!
Your Mileage May Vary
FGM prevalence in Egypt was at 97% in 1995./ fmg-09.html
y pt_women.htm
t m
Look here:
http://www.ipu.org/wmn-e/fgm-prov-d.htm
http://www.icrh.org/areas/fgm/medical_aspects_FGM
http://www.afrol.com/Categories/Women/profiles/eg
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/femgen/fgm9.h
Actual figures vary between 80 and 97%, depending on severity threshold and region.
There are dozens of reports and papers on
http://www.who.int and http://www.usaid.gov
Oh, crap, that's what I get for punching in a reply before reading all 500 articles :) Thanks for saying it better than I did. (And I did miss the "he fights for us!?" thing. Thanks!)
Briefly, here's a few you might have heard of: Hertz, Pascal, Faraday, Kelvin, Pasteur, Maxwell, and Mendel.
Actually, the architect said that Neo wouldn't understand everything that he said, so it's natural, and almost required, that we don't understand it all either. It's not just straight words, there is more, no one fully understands it yet, but that's the point.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
An early review of Bruce Almighty had a line that said "... featuring Morgan Freeman a God, which sounds about right"
:)
I agree
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
I dont understand how people can not 'get' the scene with the architect. Perhaps you are attempting to read into it too much? Here's a hint: he says everything straightforward.
Yes and no. The Architect is Yaldaboath, the blind god of Gnosticism who believes he he created the universe for his purposes, when all he created was the deception we see around us. He is opposed by Sophia, wisdom. Read some Phillip K. Dick and *The Nag Hammadi Codices* is you want to understand what the Architect is doing.
My guess is that the Oracle has a plan for Neo that is outside the scope of the Matrix's purpose for the One.
Or more correctly, the Oracle explained that Neo is not the One, "not in this lifetime anyway". Thus, Neo was not the One, not until he DIED, and was "reborn". New lifetime, and now he's the One. Perhaps it's stretching the definition of "lifetime", but it definately fits.
Zodiac Survey
""It raises the question", heck, for the offended religion in question, you coulda stopped there. :) " - Tackhead
No doubt!!!
With such closed minded societies, it is little wonder why the Muslim nations are unable to provide a decent standard of living for any but the people at the top of the food chain.
I never saw The Matrix, it's a pretty clear danger sign your society is deeply troubled when it is afraid of a science fiction movie.
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Probably too late for this to get noticed (7 hours is an eternity in slashdot time), but here goes: Regardless of what the official reason for the ban is (religion, etc.), the real reason is the constant and sympathetic reference to 'Zion' in the movie. In the real world, 'Zion' refers either to the "Jewish people" or "the Jewish homeland that is symbolic of Judaism or of Jewish national aspiration" [Merriam-Webster] (i.e., Israel in modern times). The (very real, 100+ year old) ideology of 'Zionism' didn't get that name for nothing. So this has little to do with pissing off fundamentalists or offending religious sensibilities, and a lot to do with pissing off the general population of Egypt, who are already susceptible to conspiracy theories of Jews controlling Hollywood (and the White House). As evidence of my explanation, I'd like to point out that Speilberg's excellent _Schindler's List_ was also banned in Egypt, ostensibly on the grounds that 'editing out the sex scenes would endanger the artistic integrity of the movie', or some such bull, when of course the real reason was the sympathetic portrayal of Jews. Finally, I'd like to point out that the movie will probably be widely available in VCD/DivX format, and will be watched by many on computer screens in Egypt. The government doesn't really bother enforcing censorship at that level, because all they want is to have *their* hands clean of officially permitting the showing of a 'pro-Israel' movie.
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
Zionism isn't normally equated with racism in the U.S.
Zionism was considered a racist ideology by United Nations.
I can imagine the argument, but it's a bit of a stretch to go from the textbook definition to inherent racial hatred.
Zionism discriminates people by their race, and as such is racist.
Lisp is the Tengwar of programming languages.
If it is true the movie is unacceptable do to an incorrect use of the term Zion in Egypt, that is some Pathetic Racism.
Growing up in Georgia, USA, that reminds me of another Pathetic Ideology, the Klu Klux Klan. Just substitute Jew for the ugly N Word.
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Okay, I hear Zion [ism | ist] everwhere in The Matrix and everyday news. So, WTF is it? Is it an idea or place? Why the f*ck are the Muslims all against it? Why the f*ck should they care? Why do we, the U.S., not care if everybody else cares?
Atheism isn't a matter of faith folks, at least not for all atheists. I understand the gut reaction to something that refutes your beliefs, but you're confused.
I won't bother fanning the flames, but you might be interested in Douglas Adams (an atheist) essay on why he does not 'believe there is no god' but rather is 'convinced that there is no god'. It's a good read, in his very last book, "The Salmon of Doubt"
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.
I'm not sure, but I think they're referring to the reign ofAkhnaten
As Emo Philips put it, I thank the gods for monotheism.
at least i can spell it right
Unfortunately, sooner or later someone comes along who WILL question the "real" world. That person is "the Anomoly". The computer's answer: wipe out Zion, and keep the Anomoly busy re-creating a new Zion. Indeed, there is some implication that the machines designed Neo to fill this role. (Note how many abilities he has in common with the Agents.)
What is happening this time is neo is an anomolous anomoly. He doesn't go with the plan, and takes the emotional "save the princess" option instead of the logical "save humanity" option.
The machines of course are very concerned. If the anomoly rejects the programming they have so carefully crafted they have no idea how everything will turn out. To a mathematical equation, chaos is the end of the system. With Neo free to do what he will, flouting the rules, people who ordinarily wouldn't question the matrix are.
They have a mess, and it's going to end badly. They seem to have a "shotgun and canned goods" backup plan, but the Architect didn't seem to thrilled by the prospect.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
Spoilers
In the Enter The Matrix game defeating a bonus level results in a discussion with the Oracle in which she tells you that Neo is actually half in, half out of the Matrix (assumedly the part of him that is inside Smith is the part that's still in the Matrix). This is the explanation for how he still has a connection to the machines (when he disables the Sentinels) even when he is not physically connected to the Matrix. It's also supported by Smith's words to Neo before the Neo vs 100 Smiths fight, where he talks about their connection.
Personally I like this idea much more than the Matrix-within-a-Matrix idea, or a Neo-is-a-machine idea. They've spent two movies building this mythology, using the word "believe" a thousand times, referencing religion and philosophy and prophecies in an often heavy-handed manner, and the idea that they're suddenly going to turn around and say "it's all physical, there is no mysticism surrounding Neo, no hope, nothing but a cold truth devoid of humanity" (which is what the "it's all a simulation inside a greater Matrix", "Neo is a machine", etc theories suggest) doesn't seem likely, and also isn't appealing at all.
Neo is not simply the One like the five before him. The purpose of the Agents is to forestall the appearance of the One for as long as possible, and Agent Smith achieved that when he killed Neo. Everything was at it was supposed to be. Then Neo resurrected, thanks to the love of Trinity, which was something that no One has ever done before, something that was impossible according to Smith. He then killed Smith, or rather liberated him into something never before seen, another impossibility. Now he has resurrected Trinity as she did him, controlled the Matrix with more power than ever before seen (as he flew to save Trinity), chosen the path no other One had chosen and which the machines never expected him to choose, and controlled the machines from the physical world.
Neo is something new, a true One, and his difference stems from his love for Trinity.
The key point is was.
That resolution, a victory of an anti-semitic (indeed, anti-religion in general) Soviet government, has been overturned.
secular Zionism is Jewish nationalism. It therefore has two parts.
(1) The Jews are a nation
(2) As such they deserve a nation-state
The only way that can be construed as racist is to say that Nationalism is inherently racism --- but that does not appear to be well accepted (Take for instance, Palestinian Nationalism).
It may be true that some people who are Zionists are also racists, may apply Zionism is a racist way, etc. etc. --- but that is irrelevent to the meaning of the word.
Religious Zionism is an entirely different animal, and I have not addressed it here
A bug exists in the system that can't be solved. Eventually the bug becomes so large that it will crash the system unless the system is rebooted.
Sounds like Windows to me.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
From the BBC article:
One Egyptian critic, Wael Abdel Fatah, said: "The press launched a campaign to stop showing the movie, saying that it reflects Zionist ideas, and promotes Jewish and Zionist beliefs.
And I say bullshit to that. You say Zion because the film says Zion. Learn to read between the lines, Fatah. Despite all the religiously pluralistic razzle dazzle the brothers threw in to keep the nickpicks guessing, the dominating religious influence in it is Buddhism, right down to Neo abandoning discursive thought (mushin) and freeing his mind. In Buddhism, they call a free mind a boddhisatva.
- IP
This point has been made earlier but...
A movie where the main good guy was in love with a character called Allah (instead of Trinity) and was using gratuitous violence to fight for a place called Palestine (rather than Zion) would encounter calls for censorship in the US.
and people are curious. We do everything we're told not to. It's human nature. If the government bans a movie it's human nature to want to see what was so terrible it caused the movie to be banned. The people of Egypt have got to be a little bit curious. Any Egyptians out there? Cmon? You know you want to see the movie.
People often use the word "racism" to refer to discrimination based on ethnicity. This is an accepted use, and secular Zionism is therefore racism. One ethnicity is given a higher status than another.
Furthermore, comparing a block of people living on a piece of land, that they refer to as their nation... is far different from saying that everyone of a certain ethnicity deserves a nation-state based around that ethnicity.
Except for the whole anti-semetism thing. And the extension of the "I hate Israel" song.
"Zion" is itself in a higher-level Matrix
Bingo! Remember the quote from "Matriculated" (the Animatrix ep) - 'To a machine, all reality is virtual.' So the "real world" of Zion is actually a meta-matrix.
Neo could well be a machine, according to the rules we seem to have at the end of the second movie.
I think that everyone in the Matrix (not just Neo) is a machine, and that the meta-matrix is a way for the humans to attempt to teach the machines human sympathy.
Seen star wars lately? It's an example of terrorism "from the pro side."
Spoon not. Fork, or fork not. There is no spoon.
Race-oriented nationalism is inherently racist. We would really prefer that the Palestinians and the Israelis could elect a proportional government, pass some human-rights legislation, and just get along. There are many examples of nations composed of mixed races that work pretty well. Unfortunately, the Zionists and the fundamentalist Muslims have demonstrated that they won't play nice, therefore the adult countries are trying to seperate them for some quiet time.
If both sides weren't racist, the Palestinians would only be pissed off at the UN for forcing them to accept refugees. And the Jews wouldn't mind having minority power in a liberal state. Of course if the Jews were logical, I'm not sure why they would have wanted to live there in the first place (it's not the nicest part of the world, from a geographic perspective).
Zionism may be explainable as a racist reaction to Palestinian racism, but that's not really a mature way to act, is it?
Islam is a religion, not a race. Unlike race, religion is voluntary.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
you are so flamebait...
dont feed the trolls...dont feed the trolls
damn it !!
first of all arabs are actually semites read the dictionary definiation ASSHOLE
and being anti-zionist != anti-jewish
and if Israeli soliders killed your family for throwing rocks on their armored tanks you will certainly hate them.
yet there are honest jews out there who are against zionism and the existiance of Israel.
To be precise, they are referring to Zionism, a racist ideology very popular in Israel.
Based on the rest of the comments throughout this entire topic, I can only conclude that the average /. reader slept through their history classes.
To wit: yes, the Egyptian censorship is about Zion (in the movie) and Zionism. The fact that most people missed this implies they don't know what Zionism is.
Zionism refers to a Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.. To dismiss it as "a racist ideology very popular in Israel," as above, is to ignore the roots of the mideast conflict.
Put simply, Zionism was a movement based on the belief that as long as the Jews lived as ethnic minorities in other countries, they were going to be discriminated against ("discriminated" meaning "killed and robbed whenever public tension needed an outlet" - read up on the Pogroms sometime). The Dreyfus Affair convinced a reporter named Theodor Herzl that the only solution was for a Jewish homeland. He founded the Zionism movement, with the goal of creating a Jewish state. This movement slowly fought for progress over the next 50 years (see also the Balfour Declaration)
Fast-forward to 1948. After 6 million or so Jews were killed in the Holocaust, the survivors got serious about a homeland. With lots of leftover guns lying around from World War II, they founded Israel. In doing so, they resorted to terrorism, and displaced much of the non-Jewish palestinian population.
None of the neighboring countries wanted to absorb the Palestinians, and something like 6 wars have been fought since then. So, for the Egyptians, Zionism represents a massive local disruption which they've lost wars over.
So-called "Modern Zionism" is the "racist ideology" referred to above, which basically boils down to "Jewish Israel - love it or leave it." To focus on it and ignore over 100 years of history is short-sighted.
That resolution, a victory of an anti-semitic (indeed, anti-religion in general) Soviet government, has been overturned.
You seem to equate anti-zionism with anti-semitism, while they aren't the same. Would you percieve a person opposed to Apartheid as anti-caucasian?
Besides, the resolution couldn't be passed by the USSR alone. It's the UN.
Regarding whether secular Zionism racist or not, another poster's followup perfectly matches my opinion.
Lisp is the Tengwar of programming languages.
You might as well point to an example of the Mootrix.
Life moves pretty fast; if you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. -FB
Perhaps I should have seen these movies???
HenryJamesFeltus.com
Architect: "Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which, despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.
Clearly, to simplify the Matrix they're using Gausian Elimination techniques, but each entry in the Matrix is only represented with limited floating-point precision! Of course they're going to end up with error terms -- not to mention wild inaccuracies or maybe even a singularity....
Tweet, tweet.
Can you imagine Neo being somebody else than Reeves? Really, the Keanu-bashing is grating my nerves.
Zodiac Survey
It never ceases to amaze me how perfectly reasonable you can make censorship sound if you really try. What I mean is, the way the censorship board's decision is worded on the surface sounds completely reasonable, well thought-out and actually in the best interest of the Egyptian public.
Then you think for half a second longer and of course realize that censorship in any form is one of the horrible things people can do to other people.
But, when you see a statement done this well, you can see why people allow their freedoms to be taken away little by little for the greater good and then wake up one day and wonder why they can't even drive to the next town over without going through two weeks of paperwork, or read a book without being condemned as a Satan-worshipper and burned at the stake.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
When Neo firsts confronts Smith, he states his purpose and ,more importantly, where he came from. He states that when Neo destroyed him and then he discovered he wasn't destroyed that Neo had left part of himself in Smith. Smith is Neo's death wish, and his desire to destroy the Matrix.
Or not. guess I'll find out in the third.
TANSTAAFL
A) You expose your own position by referring to Israeli Zionists as "the Jews". That's no different than me referring to Hamas as "the Muslims". In other words, perhaps you should consider your own views before casting around stones like the word "racist".
B) Most Palestinians really aren't fundamentalist Muslims. Just because fundamentalist Muslims elsewhere use the Palestinians as a rallying cry doesn't mean much. Many (if not most) Palestinians are nationalists first, and Muslims second (and not necessarily fundamentalist in their view of their religion).
C) Neither side wants minority power in a secular state. The gap dividing the peoples resulting from years of war and killing is simply too large at this point in time. Thus both sides seem to agree that a two-state solution is preferable right now, and hopefully closer cooperation and friendship will come with time and peace.
D) I think you are grossly lacking in historical knowledge if you think Zionism is a reaction to Palestinian relations. Zionism is a reaction to European anti-semitism over a very long duration of time. Zionism has nothing to do with violent attacks against Palestinians - these are policy issues of Ariel Sharon and the political hawks on the Israeli far right. Israel's parliamentary system is partly to blame (the coalitions that include ultra-conservative elements and the like). Unfortunately, the Palestinian political scene is equally galvenized, and rejects moderate leaders like Mr. Abbas.
E) Racism is a loaded word, and Americans seem to get all hot and bothered whenever we use the word (as do Europeans). Liberals - bah. When you see a group of young black men walking down the street dressed a certain way, you behave in a rational, self-protecting manner by crossing to the other side of the street. Does this mean you are a racist? When you set up checkpoints to prevent suicide bombers from entering your city, does that make you a racist? Something to think on. I will be the first one to say I wish Palestinians and Israelis could work out a way to get along, but I think people like you do a disservice to everybody when you cast the issue in such ridiculous reductionist terms. Not to mention the finger pointing, which is absurd, since you can go back and forth for hours finger pointing and never get anywhere.
and that stupid attiude was the main reason someone like binladen below up the WTC.
I dont fuckin care how I'm getting the cheap oil, I will just bury my head in the sand, I dont care what people my government is/will murder[ing] as long as I'm living fine.
close minded, and ignorant of other cultures...
A bomb exploded inside Richard M. Flynn Power Plant in New York this evening, leaving much of New York City in darkness and an unknown number of casualties. According to officials, a small, but well-placed conventional explosive was detonated around midnight. Normally the electrical grid would route backup power from other plants in the region, however due to malfunction or possibly tampering, the backup system failed to come online.
Early reports by the FBI suggest that two teams of terrorists infiltrated the facility just before midnight, killing a number of guards and causing some damage to plant administrative buildings. Federal agents posted at the facility as part of Orange Alert extra security managed to subdue two of the terrorists, but not in time to stop the plot.
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
the old symbol of masculinity was an inverted V which is ^ (today it retains the ^ part)
the symbol of feminity was the opposite=V
the holy grail is a symbol
the cup is how whe know the grail resembles the symbol of feminity V, the uterus (also called the matrix), the V formed in the pelvic area
so: feminine =V masculine=^
at this point we can say that the quest for the holy grail is the quest for the holy woman or the sacred feminine
who destroyed the sacred feminine? = the church
why?
in the begginings of church times, it was believed that the way to god is in the union of man and woman
the culminant moment of that union is orgasm (still used today: did you saw god face? when talking about sex)
church have its roots on the bible
the bible was written by men, who wanted to put a man as the leader, a man as the god
so, if now to see god is enough with a man, you must throw the woman out of the loop.
then, again at this point, whe can agree that the quest for the holy grail is the quest for the sacred feminine, the quest of the V, the quest for the MATRIX
who is against of the revelation (revelation is quasi the name of the next movie: revolution) of the truth of the grial? = the church
why?
because it means erasing 2000 years of bad propaganda for the woman, begining with blaming her of the original sin, for being inferior because she was created from a rib of man, and for saying that Jesus woman was a prostitute
whaaat?
Jesus wasn't divine, he had the bloodline of the families of King David and King Solomon, which means, he was meant to be the king of jewish.
Being in his 30ies jesus, a Jew, was supposed to be married, or at least with a woman, at that time was the same.
in fact he was married... with maria magdalena
look in the painting by Leoanardo DaVinci the last supper, who is on jesus right does she look like a man? not at all, she is in fact MM, jesus wife, seated at his right. And speaking of symbology, look the figure formed by Jesus and MM, a big V right in the center of the picture.
Maria Magdalena was no prostitute at all, she was in fact a descendant of Benjamin, another jew tribe King.
this union have desdendants.
say whaaaat?
exactly, now it seems logical to thing that the quest for the holy grail is not the quest for the holy woman, but the quest of whats inside the holy woman, inside the V, inside the uterus, INSIDE THE MATRIX
To reinforce this, Holy Grail root is Santo grial, whis is rooted in Sangreal, which also is rooted in sangreal, and if you split sagreal you have sang real, sangre real, and you guessed: holy blood
does it make any sense the MATRIX-GRAIL relation yet? not really, I go on
Its supposed that MM was pregnant at the time of jesus crucifiction, she was rescued by jesus uncle and moved to Gaul (Rome province, actually France) which was cared as a king daughter by the local jew community
This holy blood line developed in secrecy in france, and is believed that the founders of paris were in this line too
guess their names: Merovingian
ring any bell already?
What does the merovingian hides in the play? they hide the keymaker, an obvious allegory of the keystone which reveals the secret of the holy grail.
This secret is protected by the line of the holy blood, the templars and a secret priory: the priory of sion (look the web for it) which is believed that Leonardo Davinci was part, along with the merovingians, isaac newton and many others.
priory of sion, ring any bell already?
so, its time for my conclusion:
all of the neo's questions about what is the matrix, are in fact questions on who are his parents, his origins.
or better yet
neo is still insi
NEOCA - Custom LED Flashlights
FIRST POST.
Actually, the Oracle never quite tells Neo he is not the one. O - "But" N - "I'm not the one" O - "Sorry kid" She never said the very words that he wasn't the one, Neo was the one who said that. Although it was heavily implied.
Unfortunately, religion (namely islam) created the economic and repressive region that the middle east is struggling to get out of (admittedly, Egypt is far ahead with a semi-secular government). If it wasn't for the religious intolerance of that region, maybe the middle east would still be ahead in the areas of science and medicine. Heck, if it wasn't for the oil in the land I'm not sure what the middle east would have at this point. And for the record, my Dad was born in Cairo, and I am very proud of my Egyption heritage (I'm about 1/4th Egyption). But I'm emberassed as to what happened to our region within the last century or so. So yes, our pyramids are great, we had an airspace program way before anyone in the west even dreamed about it, but why do we still take financial aid from America?
There is no longer anything that can be done with computers that is nontrivial and clearly legal. -- Paul Phillips
When goverments fear that there people will seek religion in a work of fiction.
For those that think the Matrix is deep. I would suggest you grab the scripture of the faith of your family. Read and learn all that you can frome them. Then read the scriptures of the other great faiths with an open mind and heart. You will then have made a start.
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
The issue has nothing to do with "new ideas" but use of the term "Zion" which is synonymous with "Israel".
I mean imagine if a serious movie was released in the US where the heroes have to save the world by killing Jesus or something. And Christian fundamentalists had a history of blowing shit up.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Ah, but these are still possibilities.
Of course the Neos on the screens that say different numbers may just be from the possibility that he heard wrong. Just imagine one of the screens showing a really improbable situation in which he replies "What pink elephant?"
Whenever Neo responds to something we see the screen that shows that particular response. It's the old 'if you have enough computing power you can predict events in the future" thing. (Already known to be possible in this particular situation by the presence of the Oracle)
If you can't think of something nice to say then don't say anything at all. No, REALLY.
For me, Keanu Reeves has a life-time get-out-of-jail-free card for The River's Edge.
Mike van Lammeren
It will challenge your head, your brain, and your mind.
In an otherwise emminently sensible post (which I would mod' up, had I any points to mod' with), I would like to pick on just one thing:
the Church of England (with no known terrorist wing). And the Ulster Defence Force is what..?
Ethics is what you say you do. Morals is what you actually do.
Maybe if the just dubbed in the word "Mecca" whenever a character says "Zion," the Egyptian censors could un-clench their anuses.
Mike van Lammeren
It will challenge your head, your brain, and your mind.
I wish I had posted sooner, my observations seem a little under-represented.
I find great irony in Egypt being the one to ban The Matrix Reloaded. Many of you are aware of Gnostic themes in the Matrix, what some may not know is that it appears that stories of the Egyptian godman Dionysus factored heavily into Gnosticism.
After Alexander the Great's successes, he decided to create the greatest city in the world as Alexandria in Egypt. After his death, Ptolemy was determined to also make Alexandria the intellectual capital of the world. The Library of Alexandria contained, by some accounts, the sum of the world's knowledge at that point. It held important works by the greek mathematicians; notably the Pythagorean Brotherhood, Diophantus' Arithmetica and Euclid's Elements. It also held many early philosophic and gnostic works.
Of course, first Julius Caeser, then Christians and finally Muslims took turns at destroying the Library, and with it probably nearly a thousand years worth of Math. All in time, coincidentally, for the Dark Ages.
Yeah pretty boring stuff. I'd rather see Carrie Anne Moss in Latex, huh. Regardless of why you like the Matrix, or what you believe, when seen through a historical context, there is irony to this story.
If you are not afraid of spoilers, here is a very good summation of the whole original series.
There was a great deal of fan consternation about the "anticlimax" nature of the series, so when Gainax got enough of a budget together, they did not one, but (again, beware spoilers) two movies to further explore the concepts originally put across in the series. (I don't know why I wound up with three Australian sites for this info...I'm not Australian.)
In any event, "Death and Rebirth" and "End of Evangelion" were a wrapup of the narrative in the series. However, no matter how neatly Evangelion creator Anno Hideaki had wrapped things up, the true meaning of the Evangelion universe continues to be a huge topic of debate. Sort of like how the true meaning of The Matrix movies are becoming a huge topic of debate...there, I brought this back on-topic.
Anyway, it has been announced that a live-action Evangelion movie (the series and the two movies were all animated) has gone into pre-production. Gainax, ADV Films and Peter Jackson's Weta Digital effects studio are all part of this effort. For a movie which will, by necessity, have to have quite an epic sweep, the resources of these three partners which have been revealed so far seem far too limited to execute the plans. Perhaps one of the Seven Families of the Movie Industry is a part of this plan. Perhaps more than one. But the big financing has yet to be revealed. So take this all with a grain of salt.
It was this possible live-action movie to which I was referring to. If they are true to the original series and the two animated movies, they will piss off a lot of religious people in all "three great monotheisms." Just like Matrix Reloaded seems to have done in Egypt.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
It's the exact same thing that people who believe in the partition between Northern Ireland and the rest of the country, "If Ireland were ever unified the Protestant minority would be at the mercy of the Catholic majority."
Of course, these formulations mean that the priveleged minority will always have to be protected from the masses. For example, you could make the argument, correctly I might add, "If France ever has an egalitarian revolution, the aristocratic minority will be at the mercy of the commoner majority." After all, after the revolution came many French aristocrats became intimate with Madame Guillotine.
Unfortunately, in countries like pre-revolutionary France, Northern Ireland, Apartheid South Africa and Israel where power is held by a regional minority tend to use this as an excuse for maintaining the status quo and not seeking a way to live in peace with the majority.
This is stupid, because a minority can't maintain their grip on the majority forever. I mean if a ruthless mass murderer like Joseph Stalin couldn't break the back of the Chechens, what hope does the Israeli hard line have? Even if they are willing to be as ruthless as Stalin, the Chechens are still here making trouble for the Russians. I keep hoping the Feds will realize that Israel is a horrible investment and write it off. We spend an ungodly amount of money on that failed state, and the leaders seem to be willing to take our money and then kick us in the teeth. Unfortunately, I think too many Americans have a sentimental attachment to it for that to happen.
Sentiment, even religiously motivated sentiment, can only get them so far. Eventually, it will just become impossible for America to continue pouring money into that sink-hole, and the money and arms will dry up. Israel has no other friends, none. Even if they did, who can take up billions of dollars worth of slack? At which point, even if the Israelis have managed to exterminate every Palistinian down to the last babe-in-arms, they will be surrounded by Muslim countries who hate them and want to see them destroyed.
It makes sense for them to try for a peaceful solution while they are still militarily strong, then they could get back to rebuilding their ruined country and economy. I don't expect much out of the bunch they have in charge currently, though.
I feel sorry for the innocent Israeli's who will die because of the murderous bunch of thugs they've put in power. I don't blame the average citizens (The IDF, however, is another matter. They think it is corking good sport to run down young girls with bulldozers).
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
The most advanced civilization that ruled the earth you stupid ignorant son of a bitch,
Ahem, sorry but all evidence proves that the myans and aztec peoples were far more advanced than the Egypt or Roman empires.
I suggest you actually learn about the planet's past cultures. No not that worthless drivel they teach you in school... get the real research documents, the stuff the grad students review and read.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
"You will indeed fight against the Jews and you will kill them to the point where the rock and the tree will say: âO Muslim! O âAbdullaah (slave of Allaah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him.â(TM)"
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
While I normally hate the German dubbed versions of movies, at this one point I like our version better:
Agent: "Only a human"
Trinity: "Only an agent" *bang*
Interestingly, the German subtitles translate it just right, with something like "Weich mal aus". How lame...
Movie adaptation(A Knight without a Horse) of the Procotols of the Elders of Zion.
Speaking as a political/history geek rather then as a Computer Geek, Expecting any sort of rational thought out of the governments and media in the middle east is a bit like the Quark Searches... You know it should exist, but it's damn hard to find.
The church considers the story in Genesis a methaphor designed to be understandable by people living several thousand years ago, not the way it actually happened.
:)
Yet if somebody says that about the rest of the Bible, "they're goin' 'ta hell."
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Dude, we're all proud of you for having just finished reading 'The Da Vinci Code' (a fabulous book), but don't post all this as though it came out of your head. This is practically verbatim from the expository sections of the book.
Egypt whent to war with "Zion" as little as fourty years ago. To the average middle-easterner "Zion" == "Isreal".
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
...in the first film, the Oracle tell Neo that he isn't the one - Neo just doesn't tell anyone else this. I'm not exactly sure how Neo's powers would be explained, but I have a feeling the "melding" with Smith may very well be to blame.
Firstly, the Oracle never actually says that Neo isn't the One. From memory:
Oracle: But you already know what I'm going to tell you.
Neo: I'm not the One.
Oracle: Sorry, kid. You look like you're waiting for something. Your next life, maybe?
She never specifically says that he isn't the One. Most people interpret the 'next life' comment as referring to when he dies, then comes back to life again, and takes on the powers of the One.
And this leads on to my second point: the 'melding' with Smith doesn't happen until after Neo becomes the One.
But your point is still a good one. Perhaps some of Neo's powers got transferred to Smith when he 'destroyed' him in the first film?
And why on earth would you have a doctor for the right eye and a doctor for the left eye? They are exactly the same.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I think the biggest issue people have with the Architect scene is that he uses a lot of vocabulary words. If you don't have a strong vocabulary it will be easy to get lost on his scene. On the other hand, if you know what he's saying, then the meaning is quite clear.
I read the internet for the articles.
For a government that professes to be so concerned with religion, you'd think they'd have a better grasp of the forbidden fruit phenomenon. Can anyone remember the last time something got banned where the immediate effect wasn't to greatly increase popular interest and desire for said product? RIAA sues Napster, the next day there appears a frontpage story in every newspaper in America about this great new service that lets people download music gratis. End result: 50 million new users for Napster. CD-R tax in Canada and everyone buys a thousand, just in case. Considering I could FTP a really good, 3 SVCD Centropy Telesync over to some friend in Egypt this instant, one wonders precisely how many seconds it will take before this silly "ban" is circumvented and kids are burning copies for the whole neighborhood.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
I felt my money was well spent, even without all of the 'phillosophy'. It was entertaining
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Yes, the Mubarak government is nominally secular, but the problem in Egypt goes much deeper than the government. The Mubarak government fights the Islamic Brotherhood to hold on to power, but it does nothing to address the reason that the Brotherhood exists in the first place. The government censorship is just a symptom of a sick society. The problem is that arab society itself allows and supports censorship of minority views and does not teach tolerance in the schools and mosques. The entire Arab world (the people, not the governments) seems to be caught up in a delusion of Nasser type Pan-Arabism Nationalism and support for Islamist violence. If not a majority, large portions of the Arab people think that blowing up buses full of civilians or killing people eating in cafes is a blessed act of a "martyr" who will go to paradise. Until arabs start educating arabs to stop thinking like that, there will always be censorship and terrorism and backwardness. Until arab *people* start thinking differently, arabs will always have dictatorships with censorship instead of a true republic with a free press. Until arabs adopt tolerance as a core value, there will always be people like the Islamic Brotherhood willing to bomb a movie theatre that shows something they don't like.
Actually this is something of a joke. The Church of England is very much the State Religion in the UK and is in many ways the most gentel form of religion after perhaps Bhuddism. Generaly, I don't think all or even the majority of it's congregation believe God exists, but they do all believe that if he did exist he would drink tea (compulsary after all services) and generally behave with a general sense of British fair play. I speak as someone who attends my local CofE church as my sun is due to start at the very good attached CofE school.
Wales has very different religion (hard to explain but very good at singing) whereas the North invented Methodism (kind of christian socialism with bans on drinking smoking and gambeling, dull in some ways but also indirectly related to both the co-op and building society movements in the UK, see also Quakers)
Scotland has the seperate Church of Scotland and a number of fairly hard line Protesant religious orders (the "wee-wee-frees", from the free prespitarian(sp???) church)
In Northern Ireland, the Protestant churches tend to be much more hard line in response to the centuries of battles with the Catholic population, who are in the majority across the whole physical island but a minority in the six counties of Northern Ireland. The UDF and many associated loyalist groups have grown out of these. It is doubtful you will find many CofE churches on the Shakhill Road or in Derry or Armagh.
So I'm a little off-topic here, but who's the young guy that comes running up and starts kissing Neo's ass saying he saved him? I can't find any reference to him in the first movie, unless I've missed something.
Let's show this prehistoric bitch how we do things downtown.
They were detained because the were *illegal* immigrants. Several *millions* of law abiding muslims were *not* detained. So saying that the dentention of several hundred illegal aliens is ethnic persecution is simply wrong.
somebody else besides my brother and I got it!
(I'll admit, I had to watch it twice before it clicked fully... duuuuuuuhhh)
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Yeah, sorry about not being as clear as I should have. I wasn't saying that Neo got his powers from the "melding" with Smith - it was that Smith received some of Neo's powers from it.
I should probably also clarify in saying that I don't think of the One as "some dude with awesome super powers that can bend 'reality.'" In my mind, the One is the saviour of humanity - if Smith ended up being the crux of the Matrix's destruction, that would ultimately make him humanity's saviour, and therefore the One, whether that was his intention or not.
Either way, this little idea of mine definitely has me more interested in seeing what happens in the third film than I already was. Even if I'm offbase with this idea, I still have a feeling that there's a LOT more to Smith than we already know. Despite being a central character in both films, he's remained fairly enigmatic outside of a few, relatively brief explanations. It should be interesting.
For your information, I completely support Salman Rushdie. I have a copy of the Satanic Verses and I encourage people to read it. Rushdie is strongly critical of fundamentalist Islam and has every right to be. But he is an individual, not a government with wider responsibilities.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
Mohammed labeled Jews, Christians, and Moslems the "Peoples of the Book" and all others as "Infidels".
In many passages of the Koran, it's made quite clear that it's OK to fuck over Infidels, but NOT the People of the Book. You can only jihad on a People of the Book if they are actively working to stamp out Islam itself.
Obviously, Islamists pervert this (not because they call Americans Infidels - we are a secular nation so we get no protection from the Koran) but since they call for jihad against Israel, which is not attacking Islam-the-religion but rather Palestinians-the-race.
Islamist terrorists are about as close to mainstream Islam as George Bush is to Mahatma Ghandi. In just one example, Islam condemns the 9/11 attack on the Pentagon because there were innocent Christians on board the plane (the Pentagon is a legit military target, of course). And it condemns the attack on WTC because there were innocents in the towers as well as on the plane. But Islamist fundies think 9/11 was a legitimate act of war and religion!
OTOH, if American fundamentalists get their way, we will declare war on Islam itself (listen to Franklin Graham sometime) and then every Muslim in the world will be religiously required to do everything they can to pound sand up our collective asses. Which might be our President's fondest wet dream, because A) we would win, eventually, and be the undisputed rulers of a blasted, radioactive but thoroughly non-Islamic planet and B) he would then be eligible for Christian fundie heaven, where "there is no marriage, or giving in marriage" (ref: Matthew 22:30, Mark 12:25 KJV).
But Trinity ufcks the whole situation up ...
My favorite line in the whole second movie is in the scene with Neo and Trinity right after Trinity takes a bullet, and Neo says something about how he wanted Trinity to stay out of the Matrix, and Trinity says:
"I had to"
That one single line is natural and powerful and full of hidden meaning. Throw that in the free-will-versus-determinism blender!
More random Trinity thoughts:
The Oracle told her that she would fall in love with the One. The Oracle messed with Trinity as well as with Morpheus and Neo.
In the first movie, when Neo goes back to rescue Morpheus, Trinity announces that she's coming with him. Neo asks "Why?" And Trinity gives him several answers. Similarly Trinity tells Link why she's going into the Matrix to attack the power plant.
Neo doesn't know why he does what he does, and Morpheus doesn't quite know either, but Trinity knows the reasons why she does what she does.
Trinity does have one machine-like knee-jerk, when she responds comically to Persephone when Persephone wants to kiss Neo.
I think that the W brothers want to provoke a lot of thought by presenting many different machine/human combinations, and that none of them are inherently the One True Way with the others being wrong. The first movie was mostly "humans versus machines". In the second movie:
The Oracle, a warm intuitive woman, openly declares that she's actually a program.
Neo displays less and less humanity and acts more and more like a bot. Compare how he acted in the first movie before he woke up (when he was crawling around on a ledge) to how he acts when he talks to the Architect.
Trinity talks about her lack of free will. "I had to."
The audience, and Morpheus himself, realize how deeply Morpheus has been programmed with a convincing lie.
Agent Smith develops a sense of humor and self-awareness.
We wonder about the Merovingian: human or program?
And the "Persephone kisses Neo" scene has a Turing Test overtone. It reminds me of the bit in Vernor Vinge, "True Names", where the hero remarks that it's difficult to perform a convincing kiss in cyberspace.
I think the Oracle has a plan for PeopleSoft...
Sig? We don't need no stinking sig....
When Smith and Neo got touchy-feely in the first movie, supposedly some part of Neo got into Smith, which removed his obedience programming (although if you remember in the first movie, he was already a bit of a loose cannon, think Morpheus prisoner scene).
It makes perfect sense that Neo, in return, gets some part of Smith (the machines), perhaps the ability to speak their "lanuage/protocol". It's manifesting itself in his ability to disrupt "real" machines.
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Theology means the study of God and of God's relation to the world. Since all three study God and God's relation to the world, it can be said they all have the same theology.
Using the same definition/logic, since a "car" is a device used for transportation, and I have a device for transportation and you (assuming here) have a device for transportation, does that mean we have the same car? Of course not. In the same way, each has a theology, but they don't have the same theology.
This is exactly the type of nitpicking of specific entries I made referance to.
Is that nitpicking, or is that directly what the Bible says? I have supported my statement directly from a foundational source for Christianity. If you can support your statement in a similar way, please do so. If not, please realize that your statement (i.e., we are all The Creator's children) can't stand on its own. Otherwise anybody could make any statement and say that this is what Christianity teaches.
...why exactly is Smith trying to kill Neo?
(this is an important plot point that I found most people didn't catch; it will be important in the final act)
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Actually a very eloquent response.... shows a very rationale viewpoint of ones surroundings... and one that i agree with wholeheartedly.... now if we could just convince the rest of the world our views are correct..
*--- Sometimes a majority only means that all the fools are on the same side. ---*
>anti-zionist != anti-jewish
/zionist/? Israel has mandatory service in their military--if you live there, you are going to be in it at some point.
I've heard this a lot along with the argument of "we don't hate good jews, just the bad ones." The justifications I've heard used sound a *lot* like those used by the KKK for the eradication/removal of blacks.
Also, since when did Israeli soldiers have to be
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
The country's censorship board cited violence which might 'harm social peace', but also said the 'religious themes' of the film's storyline, about the search for the creator and control of the human race, may cause 'crises'. A statement said: 'Despite the high technology and fabulous effects of the movie, it explicitly handles the issue of existence and creation, which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.
--John Ashcroft, Atty. General, U.S.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
This was my experiance.... In the theater an adolesent girl was sitting beside me. She would gasp and cover her eyes anytime there was any level of sexual behavior in the movie. Then at the end of the scene she would make the sign of the cross over her chest. Yet... She seemed to have no problems with the ultra violent scenes depicted in the movie. I just don't get religion!!
"who were living in what is now the country of Israel."
/especially/ true for Turkey--there are a lot of references in there which can pretty explicitly be traced to that region.
Well, more likely parts of Turkey, Israel, Egypt, Palestine, and Jordan... just to name a few, but hey, who's counting? This is
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
Here is an observation that I made: When Noe talked to Oracle, she says to him at the end of the conversation: "It looks like you are waiting for something. Your next life, maybe." At the end of the movie he dies and then gets resurrected (his next life) then he becomes the One.
So humans are fooled by machines that everything we think that is, isn't. But if you want to believe that Mohommand Jimmy Bob Kareem of Wheat created people, then thats cool because in the true beginning, there was no machines, no matrix, and your beliefs of creation could very well be valid. Machines are man-made. Machines arn't our Gods, they just kicked our butts in a war. Are you afraid your population is so weak minded that watching a science fiction/kung fu movie will start a new religion based upon nothing being real? Do you ban your schools from teaching phiolosophy for that reason to? I doubt it. So whats the friggin problem, Eygpt?
There's no place like ~/
Sorry, but IMHO, the Matrix Reloaded really sucked, so while I'm against censorship, I think the Egyptian people are being done a favour.
While they're at it, they should ban Ghost Ship, Charlie's Angels, and pretty much anything with Van Damme or Seagal in it. Make way for better movies that actually have a decent story.
Easy!
IMDB.com
Pick any male actor between 20 - 40 years old.
Ceterum censeo Microsoftem esse delendam
Why should Egytptian news be any different then European or American ( norte y sud ) news. Face it, riots in the street make great copy. If papers can sorta push things along, all the better. You realy know nothing about Egypt or Egyptians.
I don't believe America shoves its movies on anyone. People are not rounded up on the streets and herded at gunpoint into the theaters.
People make their own choices to see movies -- unless that choice is preemptively taken away.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Another observation: The second movie is about causality principle. The people, who think that the second movie lacked the philosophical aspect of the first movie, should read/study causality principle and watch the entire movie based on that. You would see what they are trying to explain. They are constantly critisizing whether there is free will or choice (in other words: control) They lay it out pretty well. The people, who thinks that Heisenberg's uncertainity is the proof that the universe is not bound by the rules of determinism, are wrong. Because Heisenberg's principle only states the uncertainity in the measurement. ("Nature and the Greeks and Science and Humanism", Erwin Schrodinger)
As you stated in your post, the method of salvation is different. And that is a major difference.
Here are some other differences. I have limited time since I am at work, so I will compare Christianity and Islam, showing a few differences.
Christianity states Jesus Christ died on a cross. Islam states Judas took his place. (This may look like a minor point at first, but according to Christianity, if Jesus did not die on the cross, we are still in our sins and NOBODY goes to heaven.)
Christianity states that Jesus is the Son of God. Islam states that Jesus was a prophet, not the Son of God.
Christianity states that the Koran is not inspired. Islam states that it is. (A major point since the Koran is a/the cornerstone for Islam).
And there is other stuff, such as Original Sin (Christianity: exists; Islam: no such thing) and Satan (Christianity: former angel; Islam: was not an angel).
Not ignorant, just disgusted. I've seen their culture and so far I'm not impressed. To blame the WTC attacks on the people of the US is about as ignorant as you can get. Bin Laden can stand on whatever moral ground he likes, but in the end, HE is the one who murdered 3000 innocent people.
Do we(Americans) want to go on with our daily lives and live in peace? Of course we do.
Do we bury our heads in the sand? No!
I believe that I shouldn't have to be involved in every decision my government makes. That's why we ELECT our government. To make international policy and deal with the day to day decisions for us. If we are not happy with how they do it, we ELECT new ones after their term is up. That's part of what our government is about.
Who are we killing? I don't see us murdering hundreds of thousands of anyone. I don't see us taking their land. If we really wanted to, we could steamroll the whole place, but we don't.
Why is it that you expect Americans to act on a higher moral standard, when it is acceptable for Bin Laden, Arafat or Hamas to come in well below that standard. Constantly a double standard with you sympathizers.
that is plain regular lies, prove it !
if you look at the ancient paintings of the pyramid masons and their names you will discover that they were Egyptian, next thing Israel will be demanding the pyramids along the way?
yeah sure...
Lots of people have been criticizing Moore without having their own facts straight. A good example is this article, which is quoted in the one you mentioned above. It attempts to demonstrate inaccuracies in the movie "Bowling For Columbine" (BFC), saying "we've found Moore's facts a little slippery". In reality, it looks like the "facts" of the people criticizing Moore and BFC are just as "slippery" as anything in the movie:
Claim 1: It was commonly reported that the Klebold and Harris went to their bowling class before their attack. Forbes author Daniel Lyons says "Cool story, but police say it's not true. They say the shooters skipped their bowling class that day."
Truth: unknown, but more likely that they were there
Details:
CNN says: " Police said that, in fact, the two went bowling before they headed for school to launch the attack."
Hmmmm.....Forbes vs. CNN make contradictory claims about what the police say. Neither neither lists a direct quote from a named source within the police department, so we can't be certain which one is correct...I suppose we'll have to see what other students in the bowling class say.
Dustin Harrison says both were there. Jenni LaPlante says one was calm, so we know she believed one to be there. (Nothing is said about the other.) John Hause says they missed the class, but he bases this on the fact that he didn't notice them, but he may have missed them if they "were calm" instead of behaving normally; i.e. if they weren't disrupting class with nazi salutes like they often did, he may not have noticed them. We can't say what the police think with any certainty, because we don't have accurate quotes. However, it looks like some of their class thought they were there, and there's a logical reason why the one person quoted as saying they were not may have been wrong. The only way to know for certain is to check the class attendance sheet, but more people are saying they were there than not. I'd say BFC is on solid ground.
Claim 2: Lockheed Martin's plant in Littleton doesn't make weapons. It makes space launch vehicles for TV satellites.
Truth: Moore was not standing in front of a weapon, but that plant does have a history of producing them
Details:
The martin plant in littleton was founded as a defense plant, and is where the titan family of missiles were built . The Titan II is "the largest Inter-Continental Ballistic Missile (ICBM) ever developed by the United States.". In 1998, the Littleton plant recieved $550,889,415 of airforce money for continued booster procurement and assembly; three ship sets of solid rocket motor upgrades, spares, and liquid rocket engine quartz skirts for the Ti
"Weapons should be hardy rather than decorative" - Miyamoto Musashi
I think that goes for OS's too
wow. humorless fucks indeed.
MARIJUANA, SHROOMS, X: ONLINE?! - E
Who are we killing? I don't see us murdering hundreds of thousands of anyone. I don't see us taking their land.
Vietnam anyone ?
Ok how about an indirect way, kinda keeps your hand clean:
1.Support Israel
2.Israel takes the land, kills the children and civilians
3.Provoke retaliation from Hamas (you will not just watch your people getting killed).
4.Accuse arabs of being terrorists and find justifications.
5.Goto step 2
and the average American wonders why do they hate us so much...lose the selfish attitude and question your government foreign policy because America became so hated recently even by moderate Euro/Middle east nations...
in the mean time I will grab me some Freedom Fries(TM)
...then they won't really understand this!!!!
The screens have the images of the previous Ones, repeated. When zooming into the center, you can clearly hear them saying things like "There were four before me" and "There were none before me." They all talk at the same time, so listen carefully, but it's there.
"Sufferin' succotash."
The previous Ones didn't assume the Architect was lying. They simply didn't want the burden of exterminating all of humanity.
Neo, on the other hand, chooses the other door not because he gives credence to anything the Architect says--he chooses that door to save Trinity. Nothing more.
The point is that love made him choose that door just to save Trinity in the face of exterminating the entire human race. The previous Ones didn't have a Trinity, as the Architect states.
"Sufferin' succotash."
By adult countries, do you mean the U.S.? I don't think that their recent international behaviour qualifies them as "adult", and 227 years barely puts them out of their adolescence. And I think adolsecent is a good description.
But my real point here is that I think you're trading on some distinctions that don't exist when you talk about "race oriented nationalism being inherently racist". For most non-immigrant nations (i.e. European and Asian nations), nationalism depends on specifying an in-group that defines the nation, and, guess what, those groups are defined by lineages (even if they aren't strictly "racial", whatever the hell that means anyway). Someone is French or Italian or Chinese preciesely because their parents and grandparents and ancestors all identified themselves and were identified as French or Italian or Chinese. And France, Italy and China are all set up along those lines: sure most western European states are more or less liberal democracies now, but most of them take steps to preserve specific national-identites based along pseudo-tribal (for lack of a better term) lines. It's awfully hard to get German citizenship if your grandparents weren't German (even if you're a Turkish or Kurdish worker who's bein in Germany for most of your life); the French have that silly office charged with preserving the purity of the French language; the Italians have an altogether too cozy relationship with the Catholic church for them to really consider themselves a secular state. Heck, even the English are guaranteed to have the head of the Anglican church as their head of state. So because you decide to make "Jew" a "racial" group, while, say, "French" isn't, Isreal becomes a racist state, and Zionism (which, historically, truly does have nothing to do with Palestinians, and ain't that the problem) becomes a racist urge, while we might still glow with pride about the 19th century European nationalist movements.
And the bottom line is this: regardless of our high-minded liberal liberal preference for secular states, the only way that there's going to be peace in the middle east is to have an Isaeli state and a Palestinian state, each with safe, clearly defined borders, and if the asshole politicans like Sharon and Arafat who maintain political power by maintaining a state of violent crisis disappear.
Are they saying that their own citizens are too irrational and hot-headed to tolerate a fictional exploration of themes already addressed by the "three divine religions"?
Talk about advancing a stereotype!
When you see a group of young black men walking down the street dressed a certain way, you behave in a rational, self-protecting manner by crossing to the other side of the street. Does this mean you are a racist?
If by 'dressed in a certain way' you mean 'in clothes', then, yes, it is quite racist. Actually this example is pretty weak, as the perception that a group of young black men is about to attack you can be based on racist logic, regardless of what they are wearing (Oh my god, he's got baggy pants on, run!!). The degree to which their clothes affect one's street crossing is a mitigating factor in that stereotyping.
From my understanding the racism inherent in Zionism rises from the fact that race is a determining factor in what opportunities and freedoms are available in a state founded on such principles, i.e. a homeland for a particular race where they get preferential treatment.
+&x
" that you cant even replicate today"
apparently, you've never been to las vegas. . .
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
This is probably really far fetched and hence I am only going to theorize about it, not state it as fact, which is really the only thing I can do...theorize about it that is ;).
;0.
In a few of the animatrix clips (which was created to fill in some gaps in the main storyline and/or events that led up the the movies) we see how the machines are abused and misstreated even after they show signs of 'true' (I say true because we don't really know what sentience (possible missuse of word) is) sentience. Now just maybe, the machine realizes that their current situation won't change unless some really really drastic measures are used. So they come up with this scheame (the matrix and 'meta-matrix') that will teach all the humens (and possibly also all the machines or atleast those who wish to wipe out humenkind) that humans and the machines are equally sentiant and everyone should be treated the same way. The plan would be to first dominate and opress (again, possible missuse of word) until humens fight back and takes charge (movie one and two, matrix). Now to stop the humens from starting to abuse the machines yet again they have made it so that they must work togheter to overcome some problem (or possibly some foe) both sides share (movie three, 'meta-matrix' ?). When all these things have happaned they can all go out and build a world that will belong to both humens and machines, happy ending
Offcouse this could all just be BS and at the end of the movie we realize that everything has happened as the machines foresaw and the thierd movie ends where the first one starts.
--- No, english is not my mother tongue.
apparently you never laid foot on Egypt soil yourself, we are talking about a structure that sustained thousands of years of harsh nature.
not some cheap look-alike.
Zionism. I mean it is extremely in your face and blatant.
I was extremely offended by it.
They could not have possibly put it more in your face than they did in this movie. And they have programmed millions of little numbskull idiots to be PRO ZIONIST now..
Extremely offensive this movie was...
I don't blame Egypt for banning it. It should be banned everywhere except Israel where they should love it...
Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up. Blowing the whole place up would lead to the death of everyone in the matrix, and coupled with the destruction of Zion would lead to the extinction of the human race.
It seems people are completely missing what happened in that scene.
That's EXACTLY what Neo did. He chose the door that would lead to a system crash, killing everyone connected to the Matrix. With Zion's destruction, that's the end of humanity.
If he had chosen the other door, he would have reloaded the Matrix, and at least the people in the Matrix would still go on living, and Zion would be rebuilt.
The entire point was that he didn't care, because he loved Trinity. So he chose the door that leads to the eventual extermination of humanity, just so he could save the women he loved.
"Sufferin' succotash."
1) Oh? So major American news are choke full of antisemitic stuff?
2) What do riots have to do with anything I wrote?
3) American news are generally NOT government's official news. Even if CNN is Democratic lapdog and Fox is toeing somehwat Republican line (a lot less failfully, however - O'Reilly is on a major crusade against Jeb Bush, as one example).
4) And what makes YOU such an expert on Egypt or Egyptians? Other than wanching CNN, I mean. Have you actually READ any of the materials or at least quote sform their media?
-DVK
"The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
Vietnam? I'm hoping our government learned from that fiasco. Since you bring it up, Vietnam is a GREAT example of Americans standing up and disagreeing with their government. That is a freedom we Americans enjoy. So don't tell me that we sit idle and "watch the world go by".
Why do you say that the Israeli's provoke the attacks? I say that the Palestinians provoke retaliation when they blow up buses and kill women and children. It obviously doesn't matter who started it because neither side is willing to let the last act stand.
Why do they hate us? Because we are the "superpower-of-the-moment". People hate to see other people succeed when they are barely getting enough to eat. Unfortunately, the technology we invented has now enabled them to reach us. I say they stop blaming everyone else for their problems and deal with it. Not by blowing stuff up, anyone can do that. How about trying to better themselves and join the civilized(and I do use the term lightly) world.
The idea of exterminating non-believers is certainly not central to the Muslim religion. There are words in the Quran that do not look favourably on other religions, but a look through the Bible can reveal similar harsh words.
The idea of exterminating non believers certainly is ONE of the main ideas of Islam. Please read any decent translation(Muslim "approved" of course) of the koran to clear this. What I'm saying is only a fact. While I dont remember the koran in great detail I do remember statements like "do not trust even the children of Jews, lest you may be blinded" . If you read the koran you will NOT fail to notice how non-believers and women are considered second-class citezens at best. I certainly dont think the koran has the IP on inanity. Other religois book give tough competition.
I haven't seen the the film yet however Egypt showed a serilized Protocols of Zion last year passing it off as fact.
All Intolerance is criminal.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
People hate to see other people succeed when they are barely getting enough to eat.
oh the "they kills us cuz they are jealous" argument, I'm not going to debate that with you...
Three points.
One:
Do you agree with everything your government does?
I don't agree with everything my government does, certainly, and think that there might even be better places to live. Why haven't I moved there? The world is a big place, I haven't visited them yet, and I have enough trouble finding work in a place where I speak the language.
Elsewhere I have to go through the process of get a work permit, work, and citizenship.
This leads us to point two:
They have to do all of this by the time they are drafted into the military.
I'm not sure about you, but by the time I was old enough to serve in the Israel army I had only vaguely considered leaving the country and that was at "some point in the vague future"--I had visited outside of the US, but not with the intent of moving there.
What, do you think that everyone who falls under your so-called qualifer of a "zionist" (which has two meanings, incidentally, which are you using?) is automatically transported to Israel and the moment they disagree they are kicked out?
Three:
You are telling me now that all Jews--even secular ones or those who don't agree with the current government--living in Israel are "bad jews". Think carefully about this one--you are using the same justification used to hold bigotry over thousand other peoples throughout the world. This is racism, not reason.
Integrate Keynote and LaTeX
I think the Architect was lying. He is scared as hell of "The One" but he knows he can mess with his head. The screens were just mimicking him and changing what he said to give the impression that it has happened before, but it has not. Neo obviously would try to save Trinity so as Neo was given the option of 2 doors, the sentinels were already in the process of destroying Zion. Neo IS the one.
Pubcrawler.ca
.
yeah and you can put dead corpses into it, and shoot photos from them, and journey to it to look at 'em, and sit down on them, and dig into it.
wow, how versatile such a pyramid is...thanks to their grand grand grand ^ 10-fathers for building them!
um, if you saw a group of white men walking and dressing in a certain way, wouldn't you still cross the street?
btw, you do know that being expected to commit crimes can cause you to commit crimes?
> the church had enough fear of God to look into each case
> individually. Mass execution of men by formula is an
> abomination reserved exclusively for the 20th century.
Just where do you think the phrase: "Kill 'em all, and let god sort it out." came from?
The original quote was actually in French (oops... freedom) and translates closer to: "Kill them all. God will know his own."
It was during the Albigensian crusade from 1209-1255 in Catharic France. In summer of 1209, the crusaders attacked the city of Beziers, thought to hold a small enclave of Cathars (about 200 or so). The crusaders eventually sacked the city, taking the populace captive. Lacking any positive way to sort the Cathars out from the loyal Catholics, the soldiers asked the Papal Legate and head of the Cistercian monks, Abbot Arnaud-Amaury, for advice. It was Arnaud-Amaury who gave the infamous order: "Kill them all. God will know his own.".
And thus, the population of the city of Beziers, numbering 20,000 or so, was put to the sword, so as to execute the 200 heretics thought to be hiding amongst them.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
Non-immigrant nations are not fully adult. Adolescent, at the most. Also: chronological age has nothing to do with maturity; maturity is a state of mind.
The only non-prejudiced way to define a group of people is by shared beliefs. And if those beliefs happen to be religion, then the defined group is archaic.
I theorise that the non-religious beliefs held by the Jews of Europe at the end of WW2 would give them no reason to want that dry patch of dirt surrounded by lots of backwards people.
Agreed, i understood him clearly the first time i saw it, but noticed that the language was a bit obfuscated.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
It's not a structure, it's a pile of rocks. And it unfortunately didn't sustain it's own culture looting of it's marble covering.
And I'll lay foot in Egypt when the bombing stops. I don't risk my life for tourism.
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
I realize I am posting this way too late for anyone to actually read it, butâ¦
I lived in Egypt for four years. The Film Review Board there is notoriously fickle. Some things get through that you cannot believe, others are banned for no apparent reason.
The original Matrix was a big hit in the Cairo cinemas. I was stunned that they let this deeply subversive film in the country. The plot of the movie is that your life is a lie; a simulacrum that fiendish authority figures (represented by security men in dark suits, no less) are force-feeding you so that you will docilely give them the power they need to survive. But if you know the truth, it is possible to resist, and perhaps even defeat the established authority. The very paranoid Egyptian government allowed thousands of young Egyptians to get this message at their local cinema.
On the other hand, they cut all the references to âoeZion.â
-
Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
Of course you're not...
Excellent analysis by Andrei Herasimchuk
I'm not sure that Smith will necessarily end up helping humanity though. He seems to be fighting for an opposite goal as well. It's hard to say without seeing the third movie, but based on the glimpses we've seen, it seems that while Neo is trying to save humanity, Smith is trying to enslave the Machine world.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
I'm not making a positive policy suggestion here. I'm simply pointing out that Zionism is racist (or at least excessively greedy) and anti-Zionists are usually racist. It appears that the only short-term solution is to seperate the fighting children.
Neo is something new, a true One, and his difference stems from his love for Trinity.
Who got Trinity interested in Neo to begin with? The Oracle. She told Trinity that she would fall in love with the One.
She kind of attracted to the Neo when he first shows up and when it appears that he might the One, she decides she has to fall in love with him.
The Oracle manipulated things so that Neo would be able to make a real choice when he makes it to the Architect. She's interested in the future, remember? And they're going to have to get there together...
Ok, I've only read about a billion of the trillion posts on the Matrix reloaded, so I'd like to offer yet another silly theory. I've stated my view with a few friends (although afterwards, I doubt they'd call me a friend) :) The theory being that basically, Zion is another matrix within a matrix.
So, if I could entertain you with another useless Matrix Reloaded theory and get some feedback or point out the flaws to which I so humanly would, should and probably have missed.
There are 3 key elements in the movie that give me my theory.
1. Agent Smith infecting (?) the Zion citizen inside and OUTSIDE the matrix (remember the knife he was gonna use on Neo?)
2. Neo's being able to "feel" the machines and apparently stop/kill sentinels at will
3. The counselor of Zion
1. Ok, how agent Smith copies himself within the context of the matrix is irrelevant, but how is he able to copy himself literally into someone's conscious being? His ability to ignore the matrix's construct of rules for agents makes him another rogue program just like the rest of the old rogue programs. How is it that he can ACTUALLY EXIST CONSCIOUSLY OUTSIDE THE MATRIX?!?!?!?!? Isn't he just a bunch of 1s and 0s!
If smith is a program, and humans are essentially programs ONLY and ONLY inside the matrix, then Agent smith CANNOT exist in the "real world" unless the "real world" was a simulation just as the matrix.
So, if Zion is a program, just like the matrix, isn't this somewhat 2 matrices or for you programmers, an array within another array element? (Pointer to an array within an array, right?)
2. Neo's ability to "feel" the machines only enhances the notion of the "real world" being another simulation. Do you know of anyone able to "feel" a machine, and not just touch a machine, I mean figuratively "feel" a machine. WTF?! Please. This is something that CAN only exist IN a simulation just as the matrix. This isn't by any standards a "real world" possiblity in our universe or perhaps our lifetime to say the least. This is probably the easiest point to see that Zion was a whole other matrix.
3. We know the architect and oracle are programs, but what about the counselor of zion? Man, that dude was creepy. Well, not creepy, but damn fishy to me. Guy doesn't sleep much (he's nothing but code. he doesn't NEED to sleep), and then starts talking to Neo about how machines and man need one another. Hmmm.... Then, he allow Morpheus to take his ship to broadcast depth and operate within the matrix, thus setting up Neo's mind-blowing conversation with the architect. The counselor was VERY pivotal in the movie, even though his role pailed in comparison to the others.
So to wrap up my crazy/silly theory, Agent Smith's "existence" in the real world suggests that Zion is NOT the real world but another matrix. Neo's crazy comic book hero-like ability to "feel" the machines in a spidey-sense like fashion is VERY CLEARLY NOT REAL WORLD-ESQUE (spelling?). The counselor is a bit of a longshot. He MAY very well be a human, or a program (although techincally everyone IN the matrix is program-like). The proof for him being a program is mere speculation, but none the less, if he's human, it doesn't detract from my point that this whole matrix within a matrix idea is far-fetched. And if he IS a program like the architect/oracle/agent smith, etc. etc., then it only helps my idea along.
On a side note (if you can withstand the crap you've already read, a little more won't hurt right?), if you also think within the context of each matrix, Zion and the pseudo-"real world", basically, the two matricies have no REAL knowledge of the whole picture (except the architect, oracle and maybe the counselor). Agents are always trying to kill Neo, yet he CANNOT be killed because that's his supposed delegated destiny from the Matrix. It's like the matrix created agents just to give the people of zion something to fear or worry about or even a PURPOSE for living when they're in the matrix. Agents have NO SCOP
"We can never see past the choices we don't understand." -The Matrix Reloaded - The Oracle
I have a strong vocabulary, yet when I watched it the first time, I kept finding myself distracted by the screens. It was difficult to comprehend when I kept missing 1/2 of the words. In other news, I was really ammused when Neo took off his glasses and fingered the architect.
The Matrix movies are about control as much as religion. The Egyption Gov. convieniently uses religion as its excuse, when in reality, they don't want anyone to realize the parallel between the control they exercise by banning the movie and the control the matrix gives the machines.
"The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS
Monica Bellucci
I think the main reason that they banned it was because in the movie, the heros are trying to save Zion. Although this is of course not the same thing as being Zionists, it is close enough that they felt that allowing the movie to be shown would be in some way a kind of support for the state of isreal. Thats how paranoid they are. I just don't know why people can't understand the idea movies are just fiction. No one is trying to say that the matrix is real. Hell I just saw "Finding Nemo" and not once during the movie was I under the impression that fish actually talked. good movie though, especially the "mine. mine. mine" parts.
"Think about what the Oracle said to Neo when they were talking about how he could trust her. Neo asks, 'why are you helping us?' She replies, 'I'm interested in one thing Neo, the future. And I know, the only way to get there is together.' " Nah, I think the oracle said that because her goals are to help him find a path to the source. I think it's only at that level.
make sure there are enough pirated versions available online for the poor Egyptians to download. Aaaaah, the sweet taste of vengeful corruption... ;)
-N
The Cycle of Violence is to be seen as the invisible hand that maintains the balance of Man and Nature on earth.--M
My friend transcribed Neo's Conversation with the Architect:
http://www.chaosxinc.com/Architectspeech.txt
REVENGE
More specifically, Neo, through defeating and inadverting freeing Smith, took away his "purpose". He gives a quick speech about this to Neo before attempting to gang rape him. Smith is trying to return the favor, that is, he is attempting to make Neo irrelevant. Either he will 1) kill him, which was his original purpose he still holds on to, or 2) destroy the Matrix by converting all of its inhabitants into him, leaving Neo no one to free.
He's taking this frustration that comes with his new freedom and directing it back on his liberator. How pathetic: he so desperately wanted out of the Matrix, and now that he's free he sees no other option but to remain there and make Neo suffer even moreso.
Poor thing. He's not coping very well without dogma, is he? And I like Smith...
(well, I like Hugo Weaving, I think he's the best cast member).
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
I see you have read 'The holy blood and the holy grail'. Perhaps not the best source to draw conculsions from :)
Let's think about this for just a second. The architect tells Neo, that there are somethings that he cannot possible understand, because he is still, for the majority, human. But, the reverse of that is also true. The architect cannot fully understand Neo, or his line of thought, for the same reason, that Neo is still partially human. The architect made the statement that it was impossible for Neo to save Trinity, yet he did. This was not something that the architect had forseen. All of his logic is based on probabilities. He had no true understanding of human emotion. He did not foresee Neo altering the Matrix enough for him to save Trinity. He was using the logic that it had never been done before, so the changes of it happening were 0. The matrix has never been destroyed before, so in the architects minds, the chances infinity to one of losing.
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
"Where were the suprises and tragedys? It was nearly constant action."
With no suspense I might add. Nobody watched that scene on top of the semi and thought "how will he get out of this?"
The big problem with Matrix Reloaded is that you can cut out all but two scenes of the movie and not miss anything important. That's why nobody cares about them.
"Derp de derp."
"Can you imagine Neo being somebody else than Reeves?"
I vote for Bill Pullman.
"Derp de derp."
I guess they just won't get to see it then will they? I bet it sucks to be them. I wonder if any suicide bombings will result from this.
Watch the opening animation of the movie.. Matrix code...zoomed out... makes more matrix code... zoomed out... makes the numbers on the guard's desk clock.
--jeff++
ipv6 is my vpn
it as about Prada, Ducati, and Vidal Sasson hair gel.
I don't think I saw not even one of Mr. Reeve's hairs move one centimeter during all those fight scenes.
You can live in the Matrix and still worship Allah or whomever you feel created the universe. He's out there somewhere. It's not like there wasn't someone that created the world outside the Matrix. The Matrix is a movie not a religion. And even if it were real, when you die in the Matrix, you really die, so don't think that the 10 commandments don't apply any more.
Just shut up, you don't need to take such an extreme view of it. I think all you extremists ought to be dragged out into the street and shot! :)
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Alright, fine, I don't believe I said America ever *did* shove its movies on the rest of the world (umm, yeah, irony), I just said America doesn't have the *right* to.
... as if.
But since you seem to want a fight, I'll re-write it:
Like The American People have a right to complain when the Nations of Foreign People exercise their Right of Government and deny the US valuable returns from its so-called "Entertainment" industry
It's not something to complain about - you Americans should be rejoicing that the Egyptian government, representative of its people, is protecting its populace from cultural dilution at the hands of an Imperialist Industry!
Feh!
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
If Egypt's government has such a weak grasp, that letting their citizens/subjects think about alternative religions could present "crises", then it looks like they probably have some larger problems to tackle first.
steve
Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
Check my reply a couple of posts down, I didn't state that clearly. I was saying I don't know how you'd explain Neo having powers anyway, but that Smith may have gained some kind of power from the melding with Neo. My bad.
As a member of the (arguably) most oppressed people on earth (Native Americans), please do your self a favor and drop the sanctimonious bullcrap. I don't act like this even though my heritage might suggest that I be more self-righteous about my people. Give it up already! Egyptians never ruled the earth, the closest anyone ever came to that was Alexander the Great (a Greek and student of Aristotle who was a student of Plato). And the greatest (as in most thought provoking) historical artifact is not the pyramids, it is the Great Wall, created by the Chinese. *Sheesh* Please get off your soap box already.
I realize slashdot is international and usage varies from place to place, but someone getting "fingered" means something quite different from being given the middle finger where I come from.... oh, wait... ;)
That would be about the movie, or about the architect himself, not about "the scene with the architect"
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
My impression is pretty much taken from the Smith/Morpheus scene of the first movie - Smith wants out. The fact that he's taken over a human body in the "real" world in Reloaded, seems to lend some support to this... although I'm unsure as to exactly why Smith would still be trying to kill Neo in the "real" world if that were the case. Perhaps Neo being the anomoly means he's the source of the machines' control, and destroying him would mean the end of the machine control? There are really almost endless possibilities.
No, not quite. What Neo was supposed to do, like his predecessors, was to save the human race by returning to the source but thereby dooming Zion (yet again). But Neo was in love with a single human being and this made him choose the unexpected path of rejecting the Architect and dooming all humans ... however, it is likely that this is exactly what the Matrix was hoping would one day happen ... he said they were prepared to survive at a lower level without their 'power source'.
Actually, of course the big thing in the movie is the second last scene which confirms my suspicion that the "Real World" is actually another Matrix or another layer of the Matrix. All just more Samsara I guess.
Bitter and proud of it.
And we agree on that point.
you Americans should be rejoicing that the Egyptian government, representative of its people, is protecting its populace from cultural dilution at the hands of an Imperialist Industry
Why would I rejoice when a government takes choice away from its people? And who says it's representative of its people? Certainly not me.
I feel people should be free to make their own choice of movie entertainment that they prefer. That is not a business for a government to be in.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
"which we all respect and believe in.'"
What do you mean "we", Rama Tut?
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
How did this not get modded as a troll? The egyptians controlled gravity? wtf? What did they do, go and forget how to do it?
Not building great pyramids is not the same as not being able to build great pyramids (besides, the largest pyramid in the world is located in the U.S. - its a casino, of course, and not made of stone, but it IS in the desert!).
I could have sworn I learned that farming began in the area between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which now lies in Iraq.
Egyptians had a doctor for the left eye and for the right? What, the doctors weren't smart enough to figure out that they are pretty much the same? So, basically, you would consider the U.S. more civilized if we boasted doctors that did nothing but study the right pinky toe?
Okay, this post is a bit of a troll, but then, so is the parent.
Not trying to troll here, no, really....
But, having said that, I would be suprised if any of the muslim countries (the ones that allow movies, that is, some don't - any performing arts are 'haram,' and banned, in Saudi Arabia, for example) will allow this movie, for one reason: The name Zion. Fanatics link that name with nation-building in Israel, and we all know how popular *that* is among the Mohommedans, now, don't we?
Ok, just my theory. If its a choice between buying my theory, or a cup of coffee, stick with the coffee.....
The Democratic Party: We've been pussies since 1968!
My guess is that the Oracle has a plan for Neo that is outside the scope of the Matrix's purpose for the One.
That's right people, IMHO it is all about the ORACLE. All of this other crap is hokey. She is the one that set all of this up. She is the one that sees things for what they are... and after all... SHE IS THE ONE THAT WAS DESIGNED AS THE HUMAN ADVOCATE, the one that was sent to "find a permanent solution to all of this." And one of the things that the movie harps on is effect and purpose. Well, we know what she was designed for. TO BE OUR OVERMOTHER. Well, she is fulfilling her purpose. She loves her kids and wants the best for them... and that ain't the Matrix.
As she has said before, "We all got to get along, Kiddo. And we all have a purpose." She knows human nature better than we do. She knows what is best, she just has to push her "children" to do what is best and get out of a bad situation. She goads you to do it. She even tells you that she is telling you what you need to hear. She laughs about it. Then offers you something you cannot resist like cookies or candy. To make you happy. She wants all her kids to be happy. Just like every mother. But she is behind it all.
The second theme of the Matrix movies is that no one can tell you your purpose no matter how many roadblocks they put up, real or not. You have a purpose and it will come out. Mom just shows you the door.
The Oracle is setting up a system that both machines and humans can get along together in. She is the one that set up Zion long ago much to the chagrin of her "ex-husband" the Architecht. She is the one that goads them along. She is the one that carries on caring for people while the system beats them down. That is her job. And her job is to find a solution. She found it. The "best solution" is not the Matrix. It has something to do with Neo's instant evolution at the end of the movie. That was a way for people to control them in the real world. Neo just made an evolution. OR SAY, "revolutions."
My guess is that it has something to do with humans and AIs getting on equal ground with each other, creating a new symbiotic relationship instead of parasitic. But then again, that is my idea.
Just keep in mind that it was the Oracle that is a machine that thinks like a human, and that Neo is a human that thinks like a machine. They are different sides of the same coin. And that is why she uses him to effect change.
See why she likes him?
"Now have some candy...
With no suspense I might add. Nobody watched that scene on top of the semi and thought "how will he get out of this?"
Yeah. When I heard that Matrix was going to be a trilogy, my first thought was "How the hell are they going to write their way around Keanu gaining godlike powers at the end of the first movie? He's fucking Superman now!"
Turns out their method was to make the mere mortals (trinity & morpheus) stupidly separate from Superman so that they could get in trouble, and then have Superman fly in to save them just in the nick of time. And they just had to make that stupid operator act surprised every god damn time. "Whoa, something is flying toward Morpheus at super speeds! Oh, it's Neo! Hooray!"
I had far fewer complaints about the plot than I did with their inability to create any tension in the combat scenes.
The enemies of Democracy are
Now, it's entirely possible that the association between baggy pants and a manner of dress with a certain lifestyle might be statistically invalid and based on inaccurate "stereotypes" (a loaded word again). Over the years many people have stubbornly adhered to invalid schemas about certain races, genders, etc. that proved to be the result of social constructs rather than biological reality. The only issue is that sometimes the indirect societal reinforcement of incorrect schemas is a stronger psychological force than people's own direct experiences, making it sometimes difficult to convince people that invalid biases and schemas are correct.
As for Zionism being "racist", I am not sure that I understand what "preferential treatment" means. In many Muslim nations there are laws based on religious beliefs, and laws that apply unequally to members of different religious beliefs or races. America also has laws that treat people of different races differently and gives certain privileges and benefits to "disadvantaged" races. Many European nations have laws that provide certain benefits or recognition for some predominant religions that others don't receive.
Billy Zane
A Usenet Troll Triumphs on Slashdot
Neo would want to stop that from happening because Smith hates humans, and you don't want someone like that being in charge of the whole thing. Smith in turn would want to kill Neo, straight out of pure hatred, or just through knowledge that eventually they'll end up at odds anyways.
This Space Intentionally Left Blank
I'm confiscating your parentheses...
I'd really like to know why we should belive anything the Architect said. We assume that he's manipulating Neo, but then we analyze his words.
Guys, he's BS'ing Neo bigtime. Don't take the architect seriously. There may be a few nuggets of truth in there, perhaps even the whole fabric. But at least some of the details simply must be wrong.
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
I think people are capable of holding their own opinions about the universe and creation. They can [begin the slow process of self asphixiation] see a 'fictional' movie and differintiate between reality and the matrix... not too hard.
With that said... the scene with the architect is very easy to understand.
The Matrix is what it is. Control plus Energy. Neo and the rest of Zion happened to be awakened from the Matrix and are in a bttle to free all of humanity and destroy the machines.
What no one knows and the Architect makes clear to Neo is that Zion has been created a number of times. Since Neo was int he positions to have the Matrix recreated for a 6th time, he had to realize the his 4 predicessors were 'the one' who would return. (This is the basis of their religion. Basically the Matrix couldn't simulate the human world perfectly, there was a small bug that would allow 'one' individual to remake the Matrix as he saw fit. (i.e. Fly, pull bullets out of peoples chests... whatever) It is a continuous cycle. The Architect just shows Neo that the keep a balance he must agree to choose the 20 or so peeps to release so they can recreate another Zion and proclaim the relgion. Neo chose the other door which would undo the balance. NOt hard to figure out. duh.
Since "refined" and "sophisticated" are both intangible and subjective, they can only be quantified by comparison. In comparison with the results of the scientific method, I would say that Christianity is less refined and sophisticated by about, oh... 3 units of refinement and sophistication. ;)
Here is another example of a middle eastern country thinking that the entire American media is controlled by Jews. The true offense of this movie is NOT the multiple religious aspect, but the fact that the main city is named Zion. After all, Egpyt didn't ban Star Wars and it has religious overtones.
If we look at the old Testament account of the nation of Israel and ask the following questions:
Q: From where did the Jews start their legendary journey?
A: Egypt, where they were all slaves.
Q: Where were the Jews going?
A: Zion aka the promised land.
From this we can clearly reason that the Matrix series is a Jewish conspiracy against Egypt. The pods represent a metaphoric enslavement of the human race, just like Egypt enslaved the Jews long ago. Morpheus represents Moses who free's people and takes them to Zion (the promised land). (Note: Both of the names start with "M"! Coincidence, I think not. This has conspiracy written all over it.)
See how much sense it all makes! It's clearly a plot against Egypt. Nothing more than a thiny veiled attempt to subvert Egypt's youth and make them all want to move to Zion.
Seriously, over-analysis of the Matrix is getting out of hand. Analyzing every scene and every bit of dialog trying to find the hidden meaning is insane.
SOMETIMES A MOVE IS JUST A MOVIE!
Egypt was one of the founding technological empires in its day. It was what we now refer to as First World in the grand scheme of things back then. Their technology is STILL standing over 4000 years later!
Now you need to consider that they were not Muslims back then. There was no such religion as Islam. They believed in a different set of gods.
I'm sure that back then if you spoke out against their religion, or said it's a crock, you would have been punished (isn't that the whole basis of the Christian Bible that they DID speak out and were therefore cast out?).
And yet today, Egypt is a predominantly Muslim country. They would not hesitate in saying that the old religions were bunk. In fact, Christians would also say the same thing, along with Roman and Greek gods too. They were all bunk, they'd say. And yet all current religions are back at the same point all over again, saying that theirs is the one true religion and all others are false.
Makes you wonder what the picture will be in another thousand years, doesn't it?
Quizo
Visceral Psyche Films
The question is wether or not inducing 'thought' about "saving zion" and "fighting for zion" are is a good thing in a country where most people would prefer to see the real "zion" destroyed. Including people who would probably want to blow up some movie theaters.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
This is where socialistic views become real problematic. Its happening in the US too.
I've never seen a purple unicorn, and there is no "trustworthy record" of a purple unicorn.
Then as an educated and rational person, you couldn't come to the conclusion there are no purple unicorns. You could say you didn't believe there where any, but the atheist doesn't stop there. They go all the way and proclaim that their belief is the correct belief which, as I stated, is essentially what the "godhead" people do.
You always start out with a default assumption, based on what you know about the world. The natural/logical default is to believe that there is no god.
That is not the case. Every culture has created belief systems to explain the unknown. As I said before, the default is faith, which is really just a way of relating what is unknown to what is known. That is not idiotic, unless you believe the scientific method to be idiotic as well, since it has it's foundation in the same desire to understand. Or are you saying you're beyond such things, and have a perfect understanding of the universe? Are you that much more certain than Heisenberg was?
And I'll lay foot in Egypt when the bombing stops.
bombing ? what the hell are you talking about ?
* runs out to the window *
no bombing here are you sure we are talking about the same country here? are you on crack?
so what ?
it is about the method of building it, not about the size...
because I'm not a 12 year old kid.
Did all the genetics leave that place after the pharoahs fell?
well, if 'all the genetics [left] that place...' at all, it would have been a lot later. After al-Kwharizmi revolutionised mathematics (does the word algorithm sound just a bit arabic at all?), after the development of al-jibr (anyone here ever use Algebra in their job?), after the invention of the rather useful Zero, after the mapping of the skies (why do all those stars have names like al-Nilam, al-Nitak...), after Abu ibn-Sina (Avicenna) revolutionised medicine. It would be after the development of the pointed arches that underly so much of western architecture.
It's not as if Arab civilisation is a contradiction in terms. The tragedy is that, through whatever long and complicated route, Arab civilisation is in a pretty messy state at the moment. Mind you, a major step on that route came when a bunch of murderous thugs who were living in the third-world-of-the-time came over from Europe and started smashing things up in the name of religion (the things that were smashed include a society in which the Q'uranic requirement of respect for all the People Of The Book was upheld as a matter of faith an honour.) And by comarison with the Muslim world of the time, you'd hardly stretch the word 'civilised' to include the crusaders.
Of course, if the European 'great powers' (I'm english, so guilty as charged) hadn't marched in there at the end of the Ottoman Empire and started 80 years (so far) of exploitation on overlordry, redrawing all the borders to suit our commercial arrangements and to reward our puppets and cronies from the al-Saud family down, there might be a good deal more of the old civilisation intact today.
TomV
Yeah, because Thomas Aquinas, Immanuel Kant, and Soren Kirkegaard were all a bunch of idiots. Nice observation there, jack.
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
Don't even dream of having Muslim to explain anything to you.
All they care is to convert you into THEIR religion, and if they can't, then they will device ways to kill you.
That's the way of Islam.
That's the way of Muslim.
There shouldn't be any surprise of what Egypt has done. This thing has been repeated countless times across all the Muslim world.
Muslim countries such as Indonesia, Yemen, Pakistan, Malaysia, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and others, share one thing in common - they are REPRESSIVE REGIMES and THEY TREAT ALL NON-MUSLIMS harshly.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
You are right to point out that most of those Islamic Terrorists are from middle income family.
I would say that the talk about "terrorism comes from poverty" is but a bunch of horse-manure.
In the country I am staying - Malaysia - what I see is that the government - which is made up of many Islamic extremists - is very hard at work brainwashing the Muslims here to believe in the notion that "sacrifice for Islam at all cost" is something that is holy in Islam.
In other words, Malaysia's government, through its intense brainwashing campaign, is breeding a whole new generation of potention Islamic Terrorists.
So there shouldn't be any surprise that the Bali bombing, along with bombings and all other acts carried out in the name of Islam / Allah in Indonesia, the Philippines, Thailand, Singapore, are all related to the Muslims from Malaysia.
I have no idea why the US government still tolerate the Malaysian government for their official encouragement of Islamic terrorism.
If you live in Malaysia, like I am, everyday you will be bombarded with slogans like "We have to defeat our enemies, for they are coming to take away our land and kill our children, and we have to fight to make Islam the strongest religion in the world."
The above quote is loosely based on many similar quotes from the Prime Minister of Malaysia, Mahathir bin Mohammed.
For years, that guy have incite violence. For years, that guy kept on thinking that only through violence that he and his religion can control the world.
The Prime Minister of Malaysia is a nut. And he is a very dangerous nut.
Unfortunately, nobody is taking care of the problem. With the help of the nut, many more violences will happen, and many innocent lives will be sacrified, in the name of Holy War.
I sincerely hope that the international community will put a stop to this madness.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
Why would I rejoice when a government takes choice away from its people?
...
Presumably, the Egyptian Government is not taking away choice, it is actually enforcing the desires of the majority of its populace and in so doing serving the purposes of Government.
Banning "Matrix" may not just be a matter of government protection, but it could also be representative of the desires of the population... how would you know it isn't?
In not understanding this view, I feel that your own point of view may have been a bit manipulated by a prevailing political perspective which was communicated along with all the other 'facts' given you in this story
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Obviously the Matrix command language will have instructions such 'transfer energy and momentum from object 1 to adjacent object 2'. Neo issues these commands directly from his brain onto the Matrix LAN, and hence manages to fly and make swords jump into his hands. But he cannot e.g. teleport himself because the Matrix command languages would have no requirement for such a function.
It would be a very boring film if Neo were omnipotent. Which is why the Wachowskis didn't write it that way.
Peter B Lloyd
www.ursasoft.com/matrix/exegesis.htm
No, just curious. Makes the post stand out somewhat, so perhaps it works for you..
...and he grinned, like a fox eating shit out of a wire brush.
Obviously it is crucial that Neo chooses.
So: My guess is that the Matrix was built by humans, not machines. They left in place a safety mechanism so that, if anything as drastic as a reboot is need, a human must authorise it. Neo is that human. But he messes it up by going AWOL to rescue Trinity.
Peter B Lloyd
www.ursasoft.com/matrix/exegesis.htm
You'll fully appreciate this only if you're a Mormon, or if you know Mormon culture. According to The Sugar Beat ("LDS Satire, Honest"), a recent poll "a recent poll" of Mormon youth revealed that 32% of the participants thought the Matrix to be "at least partially inspired by God." "But that number may be low, because many kids wouldnâ(TM)t admit to having seen an R-rated movie.â But see also for a slightly different viewpoint, i.e. Neo is Satan. I've never personally heard of Mormons tallying profanities in movies, though. If your typical Mormon is offended by a film's content, chances are he or she will walk out. Certainly some other Christians (unfortunately) keep those kinds of detailed scores, and a few Mormons might, but it seems much less likely.
Huh, I wish I'd read the parent post before I made my own reply to you. I'll see if I can find Dimont's book, but I suspect I will strongly disagree with him, especially since (as I noted in the other post) the Inquisition did engage in mass condemnations and executions. Sounds like he's not a very good researcher.
I completely agree with you that religion is not to blame for the existence of murdering zealots - even the Thuggee in India do not disprove that theory!
This deserves repeating: I used to be kind of ashamed of some of the people in the church I grew up in: good people, but narrow-minded and a bit bigoted. Then I started reading Slashdot, and I recognized that same narrow-minded bigotry in people with all manner of ideologies. Well said!
Omigod, I made a "me too" post. I hate "me too" posts! Let's see if I can come up with something worthwhile to add... uhm, as a co-religionist, you have a better chance of enlightening those narrow-minded people in your church than any outsider has. So maybe being ashamed of them is a good thing. Not very deep but it's the best I could come up with at the moment, sorry.
so what ?
.
it is about the method of building it, not about the size...
So you're saying that Egypt is great because EGYPT Enslaved The Jews ?
Yeah, that's great. Egypt's right up there with The 3rd Reich
Which means they are taking away the choice from every member not of that majority -- given even that the majority is unified on this single issue.
could also be representative of the desires of the population
Duh! If it was representative of the desires of the population then additional regulation would not be necessary because nobody would be going to see it anyway.
how would you know it isn't?
Now you want me to prove a negative. Yeah...right! What I know for sure is that you don't know at all.
feel that your own point of view may have been a bit manipulated by a prevailing political perspective which was communicated along with all the other 'facts' given you in this story
Regarding facts, allow me to quote another /. poster on a previous story:
There are always four sides to every story: your side, their side, the truth, and what really happened.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
You missed the whole fucking point.
One of us is definitely missing the point.
Cultures make up lots of shit, that doesn't necessarily make it true.
I never argued that any of this had to do with truth. It's still at the stage of logical consistency, which atheism fails to satisfy just as certainly as theism does.
It's not enough to just explain things, they must be explained rationally.
Again, this has nothing to do with my position. I brought up Heisenberg precisedly to point out that it may well be beyond our abilities to explain everything rationally. What is certain is that, for all our knowledge, we are still pretty stupid about the answers to big questions. If religion has made a mistake, it is in saying it knows the answers without evidence. In that way, atheism is a religion.
Dumbass.
One of us is definitely being a dumbass.
Dear dbretton,
you are a troll, you put words into my mouth I never said and you are also stupid...
When I mention the method of building the pyramids I mean the engineering, logistics, planning of the this grand effort, exactly where did I mention that Egypt enslaved jews?
I replied so that no one will read your half truths and think that what really happend.
you may fuck yourself now.
have a nice day.
"Evidently he has hacked into the network, so he can issue commands in the Matrix command language, but he can't make arbitrary changes to the simulation."
He didn't hack the network. He's another program in it. He's supposed to have those powers. It's like having a god code in Quake.
It goes without saying that *anybody* might turn out to be a machine in the end. But if we're forming hypotheses based on what the Wachowski brothers have put on the screen so far, the inference must be that Neo is human.
Since the normal conditions of play for a human in the Matrix is that s/he must comply with a standard physics simulation, Neo must have hacked into the Matrix to some degree. Otherwise he wouldn't have superhuman powers.
On the other hand, he is not omnipotent. If he were, he could annihiliate arbitrarily many Agents with a single thought; he could teleport; he could vaporise the power station and disable the back-up system with another thought. Since he doesn't exercise omnipotence when he has good reason to do so, the filmic evidence is that he is not omnipotent.
In fact, the powers that he does have are consistent with the hypothesis that he has hacked into the Matrix network and he is issuing commands within the repertoire that the Matrix normally uses.
This is not proof, but it is the least implausible hypothesis consistent with the in-film evidence.
Peter B Lloyd
www.ursasoft.com/matrix/exegesis.htm
Which means they are taking away the choice from every member not of that majority -- given even that the majority is unified on this single issue.
And how is that different from the fascist republic of the United States of America?
Duh! If it was representative of the desires of the population then additional regulation would not be necessary because nobody would be going to see it anyway.
Uh.... I'm not going to argue with you here, as you seem to have a logic bug...
(It's like saying "why outlaw murder? the populace doesnt want to murder each other... so they won't!")
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
I have an explanation for the metamatrix theory. There are NO machines. Human race has finally wasted earth maybe in a last war yes, but not necessarily against 'machines' but against themselves, as usual. So the sky is scorched and all that stuff⦠The survivors have the technology to make human race transcend, but donâ(TM)t have enough resources to do it in the âold free fashion wayâ(TM). To preserve the specie to the time when it can be free again, it is necessary to junction it to a simulation program: so we all can have a ânormalâ(TM) life meanwhile the âhabitatâ(TM) is reconstructed. But there is a problem; minds reject the program, so the matrix evolves just as the âArchitectâ(TM) explains. The solution is given, which creates the anomalies; remember there isnâ(TM)t just the problem of the one. 99% of the minds accept the program, 1% rejects it. So you have to deal with this 1% that endangers the Matrix. Just a note, I havenâ(TM)t mentioned âmachinesâ(TM) yet. So the Engineers (let them be the humans that ARE outside any matrix and really in the world) come to the need of creating a metamatrix so they can get out the rebel minds and avoid the dissemination of the problem inside the matrix, just as the âArchitectâ(TM) explained the need for âZionâ(TM). Now this creates a problem, in the metamatrix the anomaly will evolve and progress just as in the matrix, just as a fractal. And a meta-metamatrix would be needed as the now 100% rebel minds get aware that they are still in a matrix. To solve this problem the âMachinesâ(TM) argument is created. The Engineers then created the âoemachinesâ as a method of constrain the metamatrix as the matrix runs undisturbed to the day it can be shut down. The machines would fight the metamatrix (Zion) and from time to time (when the maximum amplification of the anomaly is achieved inside the matrix: the one appears) would wipe it out as a sacrifice needed to maintain the Matrix and restrain the metamatrix from creating and endless cycle of metamatrices. But this time, the one is going also to find this out.
Why do this? Seems to me it just embarasses the Egyptian censorship board, since the idea of The Matrix Reloaded containing "religious themes" requires quite a bit of reading between the lines.
Why not ban all movies? I'm sure any crazy could find a religious theme in every movie.
my karma will be here long after I'm gone
It would be like African-Americans starting an organization called "N_____ of America" just to constantly remind themselves and everyone else that they were once called the N word.
Oh, I'm sorry. You're right. The Egyptians never enslaved anyone. They never tortured, beat, maimed and slaughtered thousands of innocent Jews who were guilty of nothing more than being Hebrew.
exactly where did I mention that Egypt enslaved jews?
Probably when you said the 'greatness' of the pyramids was about the method of building it. I'll explain this one to you, since you are clearly incapable of comprehending the scope of your own statement. I will also use small words so that I do not overburden your impotent mind.
The method of building would include the actual construction effort, which was performed by a populace of slaves.
You think that ancient Egypt was so different than the Third Reich? Let's see...
The Egyptians desired total global domination.
The Third Reich desired total global domination.
The Egyptians viewed themselves as the superior race.
The Third Reich viewed themselves as the superior race.
The Egyptians murdered the Jews.
The Third Reich murdered the Jews.
The Egyptians used the Jews as slave labor to construct large buildings for reasons of self-serving opulance, gratification and narcissism.
The Third Reich used the Jews as slave labor to refine raw materials and manufacture more weapons.
After looking at things, I guess you are right. The Third Reich was different than the Egyptians. They weren't as arrogant. I aopologize to all the Nazis out there who are still alive and in exile. I did not realize I was being so insulting to them.
Now, Queen-Ram-sis, you may go cocksuck Mohammed now.
May Allah have mercy on you for your narrowness of mind, but shower vengeful hatred upon you for the grandeur of your stupidity.
prick.
you may go cocksuck Mohammed now.
at least I didnt insult your religion, I will leave the readers to conclude who is racist and how cant co-exist with the other.
one final note even I have an army of slaves (assuming your lies are true for 10 seconds) they cant do anything without the insight and genius planning of my great^10 grandfathers.
I will pray for you.
at least I didnt insult your religion
Oh of course! How could I have breched that line of netiquette. Telling someone to go fuck themselves is one thing, but insulting their religion - that's just wrong!
That is too funny!
I will leave the readers to conclude who is racist and how cant co-exist with the other.
Wha? If I must decide, I conclude you are the racist.
one final note even I have an army of slaves (assuming your lies are true for 10 seconds) they cant do anything without the insight and genius planning of my great^10 grandfathers.
Even the smallest of men can stand high and mighty when riding on the shoulders of giants.
Sounds like a great deal. I'm sure all the Jewish slaves were happy to trade in their freedom for the beatings, grueling long hours, torture and unbearable workload. Ahh, to be a slave! It must be so invigorating
I will pray for you.
Save it.
Shove it.
You may go fuck yourself now.
have a nice day.
why are you trying to make it look like its between me and the jewish people, I know jews who will disagree with you and reject your claims.
get a life man i feel sorry for you trapped in your fantasy land where the whole world is out there to get you.
can you prove to me that jewish labour were used to build the pyramids?
and there is a difference between insulting one person and insulting a whole religion surely the remaining working brain cells in your head can help you find out.
it is people like you who give the jewish people a bad name.
glad you are entertained you might want to give up some mod points (whoring on the run), but do yourself a favor and read the whole thread.
can you prove to me that jewish labour were used to build the pyramids?
No one can conclusively prove who built the pyramids at all. For that matter, no one can conclusively prove that the Egyptians designed them, either.
If you wish, I will retract my claim that the Egyptians used the Jews as slave labor to build the pyramids. I will subsitute it with the claim that the ancient Egyptians were bumbling idiots who had nothing to do with the pyramids, except steal them and claim they 'built' them.
and there is a difference between insulting one person and insulting a whole religion
You fail understand, Queen Ass-Ram-sis, I was insulting only you. I told you to go cocksuck Mohammed, not all the people of Islam.
I will qualify: Queen Ram-me, I wish for you, and only you and no one else of the nation of Islam, to go cocksuck Mohammed.
There, that better? hahaha
it is people like you who give the jewish people a bad name.
No, it's people like YOU who give the Jews a bad name. The Jewish people have a wonderful name and a proud and expansive culture. They are dilligent, industrious, intelligent and both humble and proud. They flourish irrespective of the oppression of people like your ancestors.
If you wish, I will retract my claim that the Egyptians used the Jews as slave labor to build the pyramids. I will subsitute it with the claim that the ancient Egyptians were bumbling idiots who had nothing to do with the pyramids, except steal them and claim they 'built' them.
...so you're not jewish ...
uhh that is truly stupid i feel silly replying to you, let me guess you are 14 years old?
I will qualify: Queen Ram-me, I wish for you, and only you and no one else of the nation of Islam, to go cocksuck Mohammed. There, that better? hahaha
nope make it 8 years.
No, it's people like YOU who give the Jews a bad name.
...and people like you give humanity a bad name.
They are dilligent, industrious, intelligent and both humble and proud.
ok !
I'm so done....
PS.. I'm refering to every religion in existace, don't think I'm singling anyone out.. I genuinely wish people would begin to place other humans before their poorly devised gods so the world could live and peace and progress, I just don't see it happening... Until then people will die for unseen entities that rule peoples lives and give them an excuse to control and kill...
uhh that is truly stupid i feel silly replying to you, let me guess you are 14 years old?
...so you're not jewish ...
Prove to me that the Egyptians built the pyramids, instead of making ageist remarks.
ok !
You state that I give humanity a bad name, while you blatantly make such anti-Semitic remarks. I happen to be half-Jewish, you ignorant bigot, and I resent those remarks!
May Allah do your people a favor and cleanse the earth of your unwelcomed presence.
May a cobra find a hole in your tamad and bite your testicles off.
you may go fuckyourself now.
have a nice day.