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Matrix Gets Egyptian Ban For Explicit Religion
pajor writes "BBC News is reporting that that The Matrix Reloaded has been banned in Egypt. The country's censorship board cited violence which might 'harm social peace', but also said the 'religious themes' of the film's storyline, about the search for the creator and control of the human race, may cause 'crises'. A statement said: 'Despite the high technology and fabulous effects of the movie, it explicitly handles the issue of existence and creation, which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.'"
the scene with the Architect, then. Obviously he understands well enough to ban the thing... :)
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
Are they actually saying that someone inducing thought into their culture from the west might cause an uproar?
*Gasp*
That questioning the truth is a bad thing?
"Not my manner of thinking but the manner of thinking of others has been the source of my unhappiness." - M
I think now how well Bruce Almighty will fare in Egypt just became one of the most curious questions I have about the movie industry.
Or, heck, Dogma... (though they might like that one b/c they think it's making fun of the catholics)
My life in the land of the rising sun.
Funny how that question never seems to be asked, or answered, in these articles.
You know, if the Kingdom of God and Heaven could be brought down by a movie, we'd of been standing in the shards of it long since.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
"The press launched a campaign to stop showing the movie, saying that it reflects Zionist ideas, and promotes Jewish and Zionist beliefs."
I think that quote speaks for itself.
Vonal Declosion
"..which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in.." There is only one religion... and it's prophet is called Morpheus, it's Messiah Neo.
Alan Perlis once said: "A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing"
All this proves is how global our community has become ... and how Egypt can be just as susceptible to a bunch of overhype about pseudo-philosophy in a movie as a bunch of AintItCool.com readers ...
... but at least the new Messiah can have hot monkey love with Carrie Anne Moss ...
"Matrix Reloaded" has as much to do with philosophy and religion as my dog's yawns. There are so many already well documented gaping holes and problems with the Matrix universe, that to read a search for God into this extremely Hollywood-ish movie--Keanu Reeves is our new Messiah? spare me--is only indicative of the starvation for spiritual themes that our culture is undergoing. It's like seeing God on the back of a cereal box--or getting God as the prize at the bottom.
Which would suck, because the coolest thing I ever got was a propeller-helicopter toy that got stuck on the roof. Bummer. What kind of a Neo would let a little boy down?
Well, there's one thing about the new religion, and I don't know if it's cool or not
Chr0m0Dr0m!C
You're the single silliest example of constrictive Theocracy in action.
The matrix is banned because it questions your main sponsored religion/s? Keanu Reeves is a percieved threat to your rule?
The matrix is about action. The philosophy aspect of it is not at all complex. If your political system can be overthrown by Keanu Reeves, one of two statements are true.
#1: Your citizens are weakminded, foolish, and easily swayed.
#2: Your hold on power is tenuous, and you cannot handle the slightest challenge to your authority.
.
My money is on #2.
"Inattention makes clowns of us all" -Bean
I dont understand how people can not 'get' the scene with the architect. Perhaps you are attempting to read into it too much? Here's a hint: he says everything straightforward. There is no obfuscation whatsoever, nothing needs to be interpreted, the whole thing is 100% just plain flat-out said. You know, with words.
So can someone please explain to me what it is they dont understand, and how they are capable of not understanding it?
I suspect that a lot of "questions about the scene with with architect" are actually just "questions about the movie in general, which everyone already had or had developed their own theories for, which the architect raised but didnt answer, so that you'll go see the third movie, not because you just can't understand his obfuscated answers"
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Matrix is banned cause it potrays stuff contrary to the 3 blessed religions by God (as the egptions put it) These three (Judaism, Christinity and Islam). Now further down there is a big flamebait about how the ban is really cause it potrays stuff about Judaism. Now isn't that very contradicting?
:) Come on.. Zion is from Neuromancer.. everyone knows it.. and why is everyone almost black?
I for one thought the whole Zion/Rasta image was some rastafarian thing
Maybe the kid in the first movie should have said "there is no god." Instead of bending a spoon with your mind, it'd probably be a tad easier to convince the religious *insert_deragtory word_here* that there is no god.
Nah, bending the spoon is easier.
"Why do you consent to live in ignorance and fear?" - Bad Religion
I'm thinking... why they didn't banned the first
Matrix movie? After all, is in that movie where Neo is featured as some kind of messiah, while in Reloaded is rationalized as just "a necessary anomaly" that can be explained scientifically...
Wait, maybe the fact that religion can be explained by rational ways is what these censors fear?
The movie taught us that "The Matrix" was a system of machines that enslave and delude the human race for their own ends. But what really is The Matrix in our world? I submit that the first level of The Matrix--as close as we'll get to it in our world--is not a society of machines enslaving people, but a collection of governments that enslave their citizens.
Just as machines attempt to control the thoughts and minds of humans trapped in the Matrix, some governments attempt to delude their citizens and control what they see and hear.
Ironically, the movie often showed computers as the technology that enabled the enslavement of humans. In our world, computers do just the opposite, and promise to be the technology that frees those who are enslaved.
If you're reading this in a country that does not allow "The Matrix" to be shown, have hope. There ARE SOLUTIONS.
'The Matrix' may have you. But free your bandwidth, and the rest will follow.
Thanks mate. Now I donâ(TM)t understand the architect and you.
North America: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then gives a passionate kiss to Trinity. R-rated for explicit sex.
Europe: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then says: "Oh fuck! Zion again. It's such a shitty place". British Board Of Film Censors (in 1984 renamed to British Board Of Film Classifiication, conveniently keeping the old acronym) gives it "restricted" rating for continuing use of strong language.
Arabian States: Neo kicks the crap out of someone and then says: "Oh God! Zion again". Egyptian censors ban this film for explicit religious message
It seems that the only thing all cultures of the Earth can unanimously agree to is kicking the crap out of someone...
While we have the freedom of speech here in the U.S., similar thinking regarding the fear of talking about religion is alive here. Religion these days is like sex was 100 years ago - nobody thinks it is appropriate to talk about, as if some sort of war or riot is going to break out of we talk about it. When will people understand that there can be both peace and difference of opinions and beliefs at the same time? If we think we have to neuter ourselves for the sake of getting along with others, then we have truly given up. We don't need to voluntarily self-impose such restrictions as Egypt is on our own talk and thoughts. I am glad that the Matrix 2 looks at some of these issues. (Though I am always a little worried when Hollywood does try to look at religious issues.) I think that part of the reason many people think the movie is so deep is that they had never thought about such things for themselves before.
I can't even tell where the fsck I am now
The mobile phone with camera issue is touchy in a lot of places, including Saudi Arabia - the concept of privacy is involved. It's accented in Saudi because the people are particularly sensitive about having their photo taken without their permission. It is considered a strong violation of privacy. No different from places, in the West for example, that have banned mobile phones in locations such as gyms. On the grounds they may have these cameras that are not immediately obvious.
which we all respect and believe in.
Excuse me, I'm an atheist.
"It's too bad that stupidity isn't painful." - Anton LaVey
I think the real reason they have banned it is that the city of free people in the film is called "Zion"! This also caused problems with the first Matrix film. The film makers have really shot themselves in the foot with that one!
This film was initially banned in Norway for blasphemy. It wasn't released there until 1980 - IMDB
Western countries also have their skeletons in the closet.
The press launched a campaign to stop showing the movie, saying that it reflects Zionist ideas, and promotes Jewish and Zionist beliefs."
Sure, and "Dude, where's my car?" was a strong social movie for the soviets GULAG's....
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
There's no such rating as 'restricted', unless you meant R18.
:-)
:-)
Indeed
However both The Matrix and The Matrix Reloaded were passed 15.
And that's why there is no "motherfucker" in the scene where Trinity is supposed to say "Dodge this, motherfucker!"; contrary to the script, she just says "dodge this!"
And then again, shooting someone in the head is acceptable; you just cannot call him "motherfucker" while doing this. Am I the only person who considers it a little bit weird?
The word "Zion" made me uncomfortable. It seemed a little progaganda-ish, nothing to do with the plot, just using the word so much, drilling it into your head, just the psychology of using the word so much. It's such an overloaded word.
I'm a rabid Isreal-backer, supported the war, and am more than happy to accomodate all Muslims who want to be martyred, but really, the concept of a state founded on a religion is really bullshit.
Sadly, similar attitudes exist among US leaders; Here is a quote from Bush: The only thing that is holding back people like Bush is a strong legal tradition of separation of church and state. But give people like Bush, Ashcroft, and their fascist pseudo-Christian core constituency a bit more time, and they will change that.
Here, Here. Egypt is a secular state with freedom of religion, however its Government and society is under considerable pressure from a large minority of religious zealots. This is likely a pragmatic not a knee jerk action, given the Matrix::Reloaded is already available 'underground'.
Bullshit. [Spoilers. Piss off.]
The One (Neo) is the machines' last system of control; he's the result of those in the matrix having a choice---Zion or the matrix---and is part of the cycle in which Zion is created and destroyed. Neo is the sixth version of the One.
Perhaps your friend has some different, PhD version of "nothing" he meant.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
First of all, I do not agree with banning movies, I think it's to the individual to decide weither they go and watch a movie or not, but... afaik banning movies is something that happens all the time, I can remember a movie made by several countries telling their own story about the 9/11 attacks, it was banned in several countries (i'm almost sure the us was one of them) because the gouvernment decided it was a political/religious incorrect movie, also here in .be the movie was only available in a select group of independent alternative theaters for the same reasons.
I don't see any difference between these facts, exept that the matrix reloaded is a famous movie in a great part of the world.
Just try and respect the fact that others may find it harmfull for there own religion/politics, as we might think the same way about theirs.
This is why p2p networks are so important, to keep governments from censoring media, and help keep the flow of information going.
scenes from the prior versions of the matrix. for each reaction Neo shows in the current incarnation of the matrix, his reactions in older versions are shown too. well, my guess at least.
then the perceived Divine Right to Leadership enjoyed by the government is destroyed. No government wants that.
..tsk ..tsk typical American stereotyping.
That is one nice speculation coming out of your ass, I'm Egyptian and living there actually and I tell you that the government is totally secular and the fact that the average Egyptian believes in God or not has nothing to do with the government right to rule, however there are laws against insulting other religions. Tsk
In my mind it was either:
a) Neo's many conflicting reactions on all forms of consciousness.ÂÂ
or
b) The Architect's list of every possible way Neo could react.
Feed me a stray cat.
Have you not noticed that everyone who sees The Matrix is a philosopher for a day?
They normally would laugh at the thought of reading Descartes, Plato, Baudrillard, Nietzsche, etc, but when they see the pop-culture, hollow corpse of the afore-mentioned writers works, they are automatically philosophers.
Currently, there are two possible results of pop culture:
1. Philospher for a day who has become interested in the basic philosophical questions raised by the Matrix
2. "Wow, that chick's tits were AWESOME , dude!"
Thanks to the Matrix, pop culture might be on a slow climb upward. Don't try to fuck it up and send us back to Captain Horndog's Big-Tits-Big-Guns-Even-Bigger-Tits Bonanza just because pop culture hasn't gone from zero to Philosophy Major in 3.6 seconds. When someone mentions the basic philosophical questions that are raised by the Matrix, maybe you should politely point them toward Descartes instead of mocking their enthusiasm for something better than Die Hard 460: Die Harder Than You've Ever Died Hard Before WITH A VENGEANCE.
Apparently, in order to get Egyptian commentators to argue in favor of freedom of expression, you have to broadcast a blatantly antisemitic miniseries, complete with Jews plotting world domination with the old Russian "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" forgery.
Well, it's good to know they have some standards.
Pathetic freaks.
The most advanced civilization that ruled the earth you stupid ignorant son of a bitch, we built the great pyramids that survived for thousands of years that you cant even replicate today, we controlled gravity, and we were so advanced in medicine that we had a doctor for the left eye and a doctor for the right eye go figure that out you, we taught the world how to farm, we are the essence of civilization and a never ending legacy.
So do yourself a favor and creep back under the rock you came from.
I was horribly disappointed by the first movie. I have no compelling reason to see the second one unless they release a "Abuse Keanu" edit of the film that features nothing but Neo getting his ass kicked(and I doubt that would have much footage anyway?).
me too, well a bit anyway.
I don't really enojoy action. The thing I came for was the storyline.
Now, the storyline was good but there wasn't much of it in this one. Where were the suprises and tragedys? It was nearly constant action.
It feels like they've tried to draw out 2 films into 3.
Having said all this there was one scene that made all the shallowness and pretentiousness ok, much like Yoda fighting in the last Starwars.
It's a lot more enjoyable if you think you can read into it, but there's actually not a lot of depth in the end - God, Judas, the Devil, blah blah
Hopefully I'll find something new though, and the next Matrix COULD be better. At least this film has lowered a few expectations for the next.
A blog I run for the wealth
since the Architect explicitly told Neo, that because he was human, there were some things that the Architect said that Neo wouldn't understand. Therefore, anybody who claims to understand 100% of what the Architect said, cannot possibly be a human.
There is no sig.
This is usual, movies are banned all the time, and the next week/month they are un-banned. Most of the times it's a marketing trick.
I once went into a movie here in greece called "naked lunch" by Cronenberg, it was on 1-2 theaters, and the theater I went had only 5-10 viewers. A policeman came 10 minutes before the end and stoped the movie! He said it was banned because of showing drugs, and of course the next week it was in the theaters again and the theaters were full!
Islam, Christianity, Jedi?
Choose your allies carefully, it is highly unlikely you will be held accountable for the actions of your enemies
... and obvious, that there is much to be learned by the Western/American {there is no difference any more} constituency of /., about the ways of the world.
... even 'spiritual inspiration for living' from this media rather than ... say ... other media such as the Koran or The Bible.
Honestly, I was shocked to see so many posts along the line of "Egypt sucks, what a lame country, how weak"...
Matrix is widely regarded as an allegorical story, pitched in modern technological terms, regarding the lost races of Zion and the Jewish struggle for freedom. If you don't know that Zion is not just a place in a ass-kick movie with 3D effects, then I suggest you put google to use and learn just *WHY* the name "Zion" has so much stigma associated with it, and why many firmly believe that the Zionist movement is a destructive one for the human race as a whole.
Egypt is a very, very, very religiously fervent land. In Egypt, religion is actually more important to the general populace than the ability to be sitting on your ass in a dark theatre like a vegetable, being placated by wonderous 'miracles' of technology, being delivered a sermon on modern living by the modern Western priesthood (Hollywood).
For many people in Egypt, religion is a way of life, not just something you buy a ticket for on the weekends.
Americans think that "The Matrix" is just entertainment, and to their culture, an integrated part of the entire experience of being "Free".
Actually, from an objective view, Hollywood *is* the American Religion in that many modern Americans formulate their personal views, moral conviction, and yes
There is little difference between the Matrix-nerd waxing philosophical about 'the meaning of a film called Matrix' and a devout Muslim who holds a firm belief in the wisdom of Allah.
Really, very little difference whatsoever - both are using cultural mechanisms to bring some bearing of significance to their lives.
If the Egyptian government, in deciding not to allow this film to play among its populace, is doing so in order to protect its culture from strife - and nobody knows better than the Egyptians how cultural memes can cause strife - then in so doing it is no different than the US Government, deciding that 'digital rights' should be enforced and rigorously protected in order to safeguard its economy.
Remember this:
Just because Egyptians do not worship your gods, does not make them worthy of ridicule.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
It's pretty hard to be disappointed by a movie staring Canoe Reeves. I mean, to be disappointed there has to be some sort of expectation that it's not going to suck in the first place, and, let's face it, brother can't act to save his life (Bill and Ted is a modern masterpiece though, don't get me wrong). Although frankly I thought Larry Fishburn was more than disappointing: he does Shakespeare regularly, he was Cowboy fucking Curtis -- why'd he have to suck? I've seen popsicle sticks give less wooden performances. The only redeeming performance in the movie was Agent Smith, who was just hilarious.
But getting back to your point -- the first movie was a little too "gee-whiz" with their adolescent philosophy, but at least the plot held together, more or less. But after a zillion fanboys telling them how deep the movie was, and seeing press clippings mentioning their names in the same sentence as, say, Plato or Kant or Buddah or whatever, the Whatemacallem brothers decided to lay the weirdass metaphysics on a little thick in the sequel. And what happened? The movie wasn't pseudo-cryptic, or an interesting conversation starter for people who think solipsism has to with worshiping the longest and shortest days. Nope, it just plain didn't make sense. Like you said, a bad story.
To give an example, how would US fundamentalists react if the Egyptians made a film in which evil Southern baptists launched an attack on a society presented as being good but called "The Third Reich"? Not, I guess, favorably.
Anyone who has read Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses will know how difficult the whole area is. Although it was ostensibly attacked by Iran for being blasphemous, the real reason for the attack was Rushdie's description of an Ayatollah in exile, which was uncomplimentary to say the least. Mubarak may not be a democrat or hugely lovable by Western standards, but he has largely held Egypt together without it collapsing into fundamentalism. Egypt is a better society than much of the Middle East. The last thing he needs is Taliban inspired crazies going berserk over a movie that presents "Zion" as the good guys, and using this as a lever to attack the government. I suggest that college-age kids who don't get this probably need to obtain passports and visit the region, and LISTEN. Perhaps if enough of them do, one day we'll get a government with a clue about the Middle East. But I'm not holding my breath.
Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
... for it's obvious hollywoodesque crap with kung-fu combat and MTV-like state of the art wrapping. you can call this a troll as i didn't see the sequel but just got that impression from the first one. i guess my adolescence crisis is over by now... the real Matrix for me lies in Gibson's work, not in expensive mortal-kombat-like exhibitions...
The capital of the survivors in the Matrix is called "Zion" - the name of the mythical Jewish homeland. Egypt has been at war with Israel not too long ago, and there is huge resentment towards Israel because of the occupation of Palestine.
It would be the same if there was a major movie released in America where the hero's name just happened to be 'Osama Bin Laden' (not that I'm drawing any significants comparison). Of course there would be uproar, and the movie would not be shown by most theatres regardless of it's artistic quality.
The Zionist's idea has suffered through ages, and the fact of its survival scares the hell out of anyone who hasn't gone through this generations of unceasing trials.
To know we have fears, and to come face to face with it - to learn what the Zionists has learned, could be beneficial.
Egypt's fear will be it's own undoing.
I would like to offer an alternative definition for belief...
belief is the acceptance of something that you cannot prove absolutely.
There are very few things in the real world that can be proven absolutely. For everything else you have to go on the balance of evidence.
I lay awake last night wondering where the sun had gone, then it dawned on me.
It's not like there were any cats in the film, I see no reason to get fussy.
And what if there are few versions of the truth? Which one out of those stands on its own?
Truth != One
"we all know that Descarte's duality is bogus, right?"
Of course, at this point we all start mentioning the fact that Popper, when arguing against the "two worlds" theory called his third world the Neosphere, and start running around saying its all planned from the start.
See how easy it is to read things into stuff?
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Because of Neo's strong connection to her, he wasn't going to say 'fuck you' to the Architect and blow the whole place up. Blowing the whole place up would lead to the death of everyone in the matrix, and coupled with the destruction of Zion would lead to the extinction of the human race.
Of course his car-flipping fireball scene means that he is willing to break a few eggs to make an omlett.
you know, one person who does hate all humanity, the matrix and all machines is Smith. What would happen if he infected everybody in the matrix, and then decided to commit mass suicide?
All the machines would be starved back to a "leve of existence we are prepared to accept" which must surely suck, and the humans would be left with however many people are alive in zion after the sentinels are through with them.
Smith hasn't happened before (Smith 1:"Everything is exactly like last time..." Smith 2: "Not exactly...") and it would be a typical W bros thing to do to have neo fight smith on behalf of the machines.
Poor Smith. He's the only new form of life on the planet in 2100 years. You'd think that he'd deserve some time in the sun.
Speaking of which, why haven't the machines used their technology to construct some kind of space elevator to a geosynchronous solar satellite thing yet? Isaac Asimov and Arthur C Clarke thought that that would be a great way to get free power, and it's certainly smarter than their current plan of
1) liquifying the massive amount of human flesh we saw in The Second Renaisannce into human goo.
2) resurrect just a small portion of humans to efficiently convert the goo into bioelectricity and heat
3) get all stroppy when some of the people decide that being fed their dead ancestors intraveniously sucks and that they want to wake up.
I mean, c'mon machines! fossil fuels and hubris sent humans to the stone age at least twice! don't make the same mistake of thinking that there'll always be more oil/human goo twice!
Having lived in a country that has no copyright laws (PNG) I've seen the proliferation of imported pirated VCDs and recently DVDs sold openly in every shop.
What will happen in a country like Egypt is that pirates (the real, organised crime gang type) will simply supply the demand which will be there, because the more affluent Egyptians will have read about how the Matrix: Reloaded is a kick arse movie and wish to see it.
Furthermore, those with internet connections (there will be plenty) will download the inevitable DivX release and share it with their friends, thus spreading it through yet another channel.
This is why censors are becoming irrelevant in our technological society. In Australia censors have recently banned "Ken Park" from even screening at a film festival! No matter that it aired at Cannes etc, we're apparently not mature enough to form our own opinion on the matter. The same goes for Egypt, in this case though it's based on religion instead of sex, but it always sees to be the trinity of Sex, Politics and Religion that people feel they must suppress for the good of the populace. So when "Ken Park" is released on the net, it too will be downloaded and watched, regardless of what some censor in an office says we should or shouldn't watch.
"The premise of censorship is that offensive content contaminates the hearts and minds of people. But you can only have censorship if someone can judge content without himself being contaminated. This contradicts the premise of censorship, which alleges that these contaminating powers exist inherently in the offensive material. On the other hand, if a censor can censor without being contaminated, that implies that offensive content does not automatically contaminate the mind or heart of a person. In that case, you would be admitting that censorship is unnecessary. That is the contradiction of censorship." - don't have the name of the quoter sorry.
Quizo
Visceral Psyche Films
I was very dissapointed to hear this a few days ago as I and many of my egyptian friends have been eager to see this. I moved here just over a month ago with my father and since I'm now in a 3rd world country I've had to give up many indulgencies of American life such as viewing movies when they're released. This commitee defintely does NOT accurately reflects the views and beliefs of Muslim Egyptians I know here, the Matrix is pretty freaking popular. As far as reflecting Jewish/Zionist beliefs, that's just a crock of hot, steaming shit, they're just making up their excuse as they go along, especially as Jews aren't taking a liking towards here. Now I'll have to resort to pirating the movie so as an athiest and American I will get to enjoy it without all the corruption it would supposedly hearld.
If you die and discover that God does exist, can you be certain that he existed before you died?
Precisely! The coolest part of the movie relates to what you were saying.
Neo "Something feels different"
Then he precedes to stop the sentinels in "real life".
Hmmm...interesting, isn't it? Those in the matrix have a "choice", but choice is "merely an illusion between those who have power and those who do not". Zion is part of the Matrix! Picture the "Matrix" as been a little "for loop" inside of a bigger matrix.
I can't wait for Novemember.
PHd's don't mean anything, if you get them in a useless subject.
As a slight aside, Neo is always the "One" because when he talks to the architect one of the monitors says "There were three before me!" or something to that effect.
--Joey
This is better than winning a fucking Academy Award.
Your work has been recognized by the government of Egypt for being "too damn good."
Want to Know How to Cheat the GPL? Read On!
Uh... isn't that a stereotype, too?
Some words in the Architect's speech are completely superfluous (for example, there's no reason for him to say "apropos" when he does, and it's even slightly nonsensical in context). However, the vast majority of it is just a long, convoluted way of saying the same things that others have said in their summaries in this thread. I have no doubt the Architect's speech was designed to confuse a reasonably high percentage of the viewers (he could have said everything he did far more simply). But it also creates an interesting effect for those who look a little deeper, as it seems at least plausible that an earlier AI program (remember, the Architect created the Matrix, so he's pretty old) would favor using a lot of technical terms so as to be as precise as possible.
I metamoderate all Redundant and Offtopic moderations as Unfair.
Neo makes the choice that will cause the Matrix to fall and kill the entire human population, including Zion.
If Neo chose the door to HIS right (the left of the screen from the Architects perspective) then Zion would fall, the Matrix would RESET and NEO could choose 23 people (17 female and 6 male) to join him in making the new ZION and start the whole damn thing over again (the seventh Matrix/Zion).
If Neo chose the door to HIS left (the right side of the screen from the Architects perspective), then he could save Trinity but it would cause a feed back in the Matrix destroying it and killing every human plugged in. Also the sentinals would still destroy Zion.
Neo made the choice to save Trinity therefore condeming the entire human race (Matrix plugies and Zionites), but he knows there is something he can do. For one he can affect the sentinals in the real world (is it really the real world? hmmm). And two why would he make that choice and then admit that there was nothing he could do (in response to Morpheus asking what had happened, that Neo was a piece of the CONTROL just like everything else, Oracle, Crazy French Guy, etc.)
I guess we will have to wait and see how they FIX the Matrix so that the entire human race doesn't die.
Or maybe the Woz Brothers agree with many that the human race's worst enemy is itself and they will let it happen. Time will tell
www.fotoforay.com
Y'know, cut just one zero out of that first sentence and you could be talking about the US
What part of "a well regulated militia" do you not understand?
Well, duh. as should be obvious to everyone who has ever seen one, breasts are very, very dangerous.
Not as bad as penises though. Those things can poke your eye out.
Seriously: the general fear of anything sexual is sick. Not that sex isn't a powerful emotional force that needs respect and careful handling. But I think on balance we'd be far better off with more sex and less violence.
-- Tony Lawrence
I wonder if Egyptians can search for "Buddhism" on Google
--
The Bailiwick - DESIGNHUB2005
That... or how the hell he stopped the squidies when he was OUT of the Matrix (or so we thought)
Your observation they are still inside the Matrix is correct, backed up by several other events in the movie. Some of them are really subtle and I cannot recall. One is not so subtle and quite memorable:
The spoon bender in the first movie insisted "there is no spoon". Why is there no spoon? Because they are in the Matrix. The spoon becomes a symbol at this point for what does not exist as a result of where they are. The boy gives Neo another spoon as he's leaving Zion, but he does not change his message. He simply gives him the spoon. The message is unchanged: "there is no spoon", ergo, you're still inside the Matrix.
I think most people will agree, given that and the Sentinal scene in the end where Neo loses consciousness, that people in Zion are still inside the Matrix. Neo, having mastered control over Matrix reality, is "beginning to believe" here as well. How he might have realized this, I do not have any theory on. This concept will be crutial later on because I think it will apply to Agent Smith as well.
What's really going to bake your noodle is why do the machines need to destroy Zion with a conventional attack? They literally allow Zion to be created, fight with it for a while, then eventually send a massive army to wipe it out. If the machines controlled the Matrix, why not just "delete" Zion?
The answer? I believe that both the machines AND humans are trapped inside of a Matrix. Both of them are enslaved!
Think about what the Oracle said to Neo when they were talking about how he could trust her. Neo asks, "why are you helping us?" She replies, "I'm interested in one thing Neo, the future. And I know, the only way to get there is together."
From this I conclude that while there are some humans that realize their reality is fake, there are some programs that realize the same thing. Somehow there needs to be a collaboration between the two if they are somehow to free themselves.
There's some support for this in the teaser trailer.
You see an army of Agent Smiths that appear to be standing in the surface desert, with hover craft surrounding them. If Smith is merely a Matrix construct, how can he exist in the "real world"?
There is a scene with Neo and Smith fighting where they hit each other and both fly back. Amidst this, a shot is inserted of Morpheus stating with much shock and disbelief: "he fights for us!?"
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Have you seen the Animatrix DVD ? There is one part there, where the humans try to give a machine a chance to chose for itself, by introducing it into the matrix, to support the humans. *That* concept is what will play a major role in the 3rd part. Neo is a machine that has chosen to fight for humans. I plan to pull up this comment after seeing the revolutions :) Let it be here safe till then.
Siggy Say, Siggy Do
... islamic fundamentalists a such a peace loving people, committed to the continuation of "social peace" and avoid "crisis" at all costs.
...which might have some relevance here if the government of Egypt was an islamist fundamentalist government, rather than a secular government which has for decades been in 'crisis', trying to cope with an ongoing islamist fundamentalist revolution which has killed many hundreds of people and nurtured several of the most hard-core 'afghan' commanders. There's been no 'social peace' in Egypt for a very long time, and past experience suggests that allowing the showing of a film which portrays a supposed 'promised land' called, of all things, Zion (not provocative at all, eh?).
'Their social problems' are obviously not the result of western movies. However, their social problems do mean that the showing of this film could cause the sort of unrest that gets cinemas bombed. Which is turn leads to people getting killed. That's killed as in dead, as in bereaved relatives in mourning, as in families without breadwinners, as in, well, if you've had to deal with the death of a loved one you know what I'm talking about. Not as in 'OK, so roll me up another Agent Smith and let's continue the groovy action sequence'.
The government of Egypt is, effectively, more than 20 years into a civil war against the fundamentalists, and that does make a difference in this sort of decision. If it was Saudi Arabia or Iran we were talking about (or Yemen, Sudan, Pakistan, plenty of others to choose from) then, yes, it would be ludicrous. But it isn't. Very sad, yes, but while I'm entirely free to sacrifice MY life for my beliefs in freedom of speech, expression and so forth, I have absolutely NO right to sacrifice someone else's life for anything at all.
TomV
In the living quarters area of Zion all of the area around the door frames are painted blood red. This struck me as an obvious reference to the passover. The residents of Zion are waiting to be delivered from the machines and have marked their doors. So if residents of Zion == Jews escaping Eqypt, then the machines == Egyptians.
One can see how this film got banned in Egypt if the force that keeps nearly all of humanity enslaved is equated with their country. Not the most mature attitude, but you can see how this would happen.
Interestingly, in the Animatrix, there are scenes straight out of the Ten Commandments in which the machines are depicted as the Jewish slaves, building pyramids, and the humans as the Egyptian slave drivers. I wonder if the Animatrix is banned as well.
Lasers Controlled Games!
I love religious debate... it's so much fun because it almost always breaks down into "Prove it!" vs. "You have to believe."
:)
It's understandable that Egypt (with a rocky political situation these days, and a strong Islamic population that, like its two brethren religions, is not know for tolerance of conflicting ideas) might want to exercise a little caution in how the philosophical/religious views of The Matrix are presented... but to ban something entirely because you're afraid to let people draw their own conclusions is just going to make it worse.
What Egypt has done is declare this film to be forbidden fruit. The younger people will now go to every extreme to find that movie and watch it, and they'll make more of it then they would have if it were just another flick, because it's on the forbidden list!
Consider, people under the age of 21 (here in the US) usually make a big deal out of consuming alcohol -- they get older friends to buy it for them, they get fake ID's, they do all kinds of things because the perceived value has been elevated by the fact that they can't just go buy it themselves. About 1-5 years after turning 21, the charm wears off, and it just becomes another item on the shopping list.
I suspect you can extend that concept to any illegal substance, but that's a different debate.
Religion and Science are not as different as both sides like to think. They are both predicated on logical systems built up from fundemental "facts" which have to be taken as faith.
In science, we build systems of proof which allow you to extend a concept, using the assumption that the underlying concept was correct. Hence, we can talk about molecular bonds in terms of the interaction of subatomic particles... using the assumptions that those subatomic particles work as we believe. Make that a recursive algorithim, and you're on your way to defining the Universe by science.
In a religion, the depth of the predicate tree is usually much shorter. We describe how the world came to be, and why things are, and why we should act in certain ways. The ultimate predicate for this is that the Creator said so.
The difference between the two is that science breaks things down far enough so that it becomes difficult to fragment into factions. Unlike most (other) religions, scientists are generally willing to modify their belief system when another theory makes more sense. Example: Relativity vs. Quantuum Mechanics. For decades, those have been two rival belief systems, but now they are resolving their differences and merging those systems to get a step closer to God (The Unified Field Theory).
Imagine, for a moment, how interesting it would be if the various religions would take a similar approach...
But, people always have strong feelings when they get ideas in their heads. Denying the "truth" of one man's interpretation of a single line in the Bible is just like telling a computer scientist that a bit can be half on, or SCO/Caldera that they don't matter anymore. They'd rather fight to defend their belief, than have to change the way they see the world around them.
At least it's entertaining...
It's always amazed me how delicate religion seems to be. I mean really: "'religious themes' of the film's storyline, about the search for the creator and control of the human race, may cause 'crises'".
Apparently it's exceedingly easy to point out that the emperor has no clothes, at least when it comes to religion.
Either that or one piece of fantasy (the movie) can easily supplant the older fantasy (the religion) in the minds of the rubes (the worshippers).
Just my $.02.
Computers are like Old Testament gods; lots of rules and no mercy.
Well being Egyptian I'm certainly more qualified to judge that more than you, I live in Egypt and we are all Coptic here some of us are Muslims and some are Christian, being Coptic is about ethnicity not religion.
When Islam spread to Egypt some people willingly converted and others remained Christian which tells a lot about the tolerance of Islam, if Muslims simply killed all those who disagree with them there will be no Christians in Egypt today.
I will throw in another piece of information there are some big families that have a common ancestor and both Christian and Muslim branches of the same family.
Apparently, nobody realized that All American movies were banned in Egypt right after "Dude, Where's My Car?"
which are related to the three divine religions, which we all respect and believe in
How can a person believe in all three religions?
I mean, a religion addresses every issue, even if it is, "We can't understand that now, only an infinite [G/g]od can" or some type of metaphysical "such a question is meaningless since there is no reality blah blah blah".
But in order to have three religions there has to be some distinction, and that distinction would lie in how these issues are addressed. And a person can't believe in two or more distinct/separate "answers" to the same issue since one would negate the other.
And then again, shooting someone in the head is acceptable; you just cannot call him "motherfucker" while doing this. Am I the only person who considers it a little bit weird?
Shut up, motherfucker.
" Finally we get something that, while possibly on the level of freshman philosophy (possibly; I don't agree)"
Granted the philosophy is decidedly Cartesian and is very simplified to fit the venue, however, the numberous religious and historical references that exist in Matrix: Reloaded should not be overlooked.
Consider the Meruvingian: a French-speaking, french culture loving "program" named after the Ruling family in France/Central Europe during the Dark ages ~500 AD or so. Consider that this family claimed to trace its bloodline directly to the child of Mary Magdalane and Jesus Christ. Due to this somewhat "blasphemous" claim, the family was betrayed by the Roman Catholic Church and diposed in favor of Charlemagne and his family (read "betrayed", as humanity arguably was by its machines). Further, their current decendants are believed to be the fabled "Illuminati" and control groups such as the Freemasons. THE Meruvingian is a reference to the eventual heir of their family's bloodline who is storied to rule over a united Europe as a sort of "chosen one" or "savior".
Back to the Matrix...I submit that the Meruvingian was the FIRST "one", just as Neo is now the 6th. Also, his wife Persephone is what seems a possible eventuallity for Trinity.
So maybe the philosophy is a bit heavy-handed, but if you dig a little deeper you'll find some of the more obscure references in the movie hold a lot of "more than Freshman college level" ideas for pondering.
Anyone else notice how in the 1st movie, in the scene where Smith & Neo meet for the first time and Neo is being interrogated by the Agents, the shot is zooming in on what appears to be a screen with a white border around it almost as if it was from the perspective of someone (*cough* Architect?) watching this happen on screen. Go back and watch the scene to see it for yourself.
This is my United States of whatever.
It could be that people are really used for their processing power, Neo's day job was writting code, it makes more sense than as a power source.
Onward to the Aether Sphere!
Okay, I'll admit, I was previously unclear on the concept of Zionism. I tried to google for 'Zion' and came up with nothing but a bunch of Christian churches. Maybe I should have googled for 'Zionism'. ;)
My journal has hot
The Oracle never tells Neo he isn't the one. Go watch the scene again and listen more carefully to her words. She tells him what he needed to hear, just like Morpheus said.
Think about how the story would be different if she flat-out said he was the one (when he still didn't believe it yet), or flat-out told him he was not (without telling him he would have to choose between his own life and Morpheus').
** spoilers ahead **
The impression that I got was that each screen represented one possible way that Neo could develop and progress. Remember, he's part of the Matrix, fulfilling a prophecy, exhibiting "supernatural" abilities. He's a program, as we've been told by the Architect, with a pre-determined outcome. Prophecies *are* foretold, after all.
Each screen started out with Neo at birth and began to progress through all the various different possibilities that would exist in his life. Each possibility was determined by the choices that he made along each life. We're told, tho, that the free-will within the Matrix is an illusion. That it's programmed in. Each person might be making their own decisions, but those decisions are still within the boundaries and constraints of the system that they are in.
Further proof that the outcome is predetermined is seen when each of his "lives" lead up to the meeting with the Architect and fall into sync.
It never mattered which pill Neo took. The outcome would have been the same.
Ryosen
One man's "Troll, +1" is another man's "Insightful, +1".
And those three religions would be...let's see...Discordianism, Deism, and....I know, Jedi! ^_^
Shimatta
Hail Eris!
Your Mileage May Vary
I'm surprised nobody picked up on the kid in the early part of the movie who handed Neo the spoon.
Neo1 through Neo5 decided the Architect was lying, and gambled that "the source" or whatever would set 'em free. (Instead, it was just a trap that "reloaded" the Matrix, like Ghosting a drive. OK, bug caught. Reinstall.)
Neo6 figured the Architect might not be lying. So screw it, pop through the second door and see what happens. Maybe the Architect's worried that meta-Matrix will crash (which would suck for him and for humanity, if that's where the AIs actually "live"). Or maybe not. We (the viewers) and Neo6 don't have enough information to say.
But sure enough, when Neo6 goes back into what he thought was the "real world", "there is [still] no spoon". Zion, the seekers, everything he thought was real was just a higher-level matrix, destroyed and reloaded five times before. It's just another level of control.
So Movie III is gonna be Neo6, who jumped into the meta-Matrix and just discovered that There Is No Spoon, versus (or working with!) the "free" version of Agent Smith, who somehow figured out a different way to jump from the Matrix into the meta-Matrix.
Wonder how Free Agent Smith (he's half-AI, half-newsreader? :) will react when he finds out that what he's been programmed to believe is the "real world of the machines", and that he thought he was defending when he got Zion whacked, is also just a higher-level Matrix.
> It raises the question that it's not impossible that we ourselves are in some kind of simulation, or are indeed simulated. There would be no way to tell, which perhaps is the problem that the Egyptian censors have with the film.
"It raises the question", heck, for the offended religion in question, you coulda stopped there. :)
> If nothing really is real, then nothing really matters and you're left with the philosophy of the marquis-de-sade. Not something any civilised society really wants.
Not quite. If nothing really is real, then nothing "really" matters and you're left with having to (as the Oracle put it) "make up your own damn mind" on how to live. IMO that's something many societies could benefit from, and something most religious societies are extremely threatened by.
(And IMNSHO, that's a feature, not a bug :)
Actually, the architect said that Neo wouldn't understand everything that he said, so it's natural, and almost required, that we don't understand it all either. It's not just straight words, there is more, no one fully understands it yet, but that's the point.
This is my digital signature. 10011011001
I dont understand how people can not 'get' the scene with the architect. Perhaps you are attempting to read into it too much? Here's a hint: he says everything straightforward.
Yes and no. The Architect is Yaldaboath, the blind god of Gnosticism who believes he he created the universe for his purposes, when all he created was the deception we see around us. He is opposed by Sophia, wisdom. Read some Phillip K. Dick and *The Nag Hammadi Codices* is you want to understand what the Architect is doing.
My guess is that the Oracle has a plan for Neo that is outside the scope of the Matrix's purpose for the One.
Or more correctly, the Oracle explained that Neo is not the One, "not in this lifetime anyway". Thus, Neo was not the One, not until he DIED, and was "reborn". New lifetime, and now he's the One. Perhaps it's stretching the definition of "lifetime", but it definately fits.
Zodiac Survey
Probably too late for this to get noticed (7 hours is an eternity in slashdot time), but here goes: Regardless of what the official reason for the ban is (religion, etc.), the real reason is the constant and sympathetic reference to 'Zion' in the movie. In the real world, 'Zion' refers either to the "Jewish people" or "the Jewish homeland that is symbolic of Judaism or of Jewish national aspiration" [Merriam-Webster] (i.e., Israel in modern times). The (very real, 100+ year old) ideology of 'Zionism' didn't get that name for nothing. So this has little to do with pissing off fundamentalists or offending religious sensibilities, and a lot to do with pissing off the general population of Egypt, who are already susceptible to conspiracy theories of Jews controlling Hollywood (and the White House). As evidence of my explanation, I'd like to point out that Speilberg's excellent _Schindler's List_ was also banned in Egypt, ostensibly on the grounds that 'editing out the sex scenes would endanger the artistic integrity of the movie', or some such bull, when of course the real reason was the sympathetic portrayal of Jews. Finally, I'd like to point out that the movie will probably be widely available in VCD/DivX format, and will be watched by many on computer screens in Egypt. The government doesn't really bother enforcing censorship at that level, because all they want is to have *their* hands clean of officially permitting the showing of a 'pro-Israel' movie.
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
I metamoderate all Redundant and Offtopic moderations as Unfair.
Okay, I hear Zion [ism | ist] everwhere in The Matrix and everyday news. So, WTF is it? Is it an idea or place? Why the f*ck are the Muslims all against it? Why the f*ck should they care? Why do we, the U.S., not care if everybody else cares?
Unfortunately, sooner or later someone comes along who WILL question the "real" world. That person is "the Anomoly". The computer's answer: wipe out Zion, and keep the Anomoly busy re-creating a new Zion. Indeed, there is some implication that the machines designed Neo to fill this role. (Note how many abilities he has in common with the Agents.)
What is happening this time is neo is an anomolous anomoly. He doesn't go with the plan, and takes the emotional "save the princess" option instead of the logical "save humanity" option.
The machines of course are very concerned. If the anomoly rejects the programming they have so carefully crafted they have no idea how everything will turn out. To a mathematical equation, chaos is the end of the system. With Neo free to do what he will, flouting the rules, people who ordinarily wouldn't question the matrix are.
They have a mess, and it's going to end badly. They seem to have a "shotgun and canned goods" backup plan, but the Architect didn't seem to thrilled by the prospect.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
--Dr.W.Edwards Deming
To be precise, they are referring to Zionism, a racist ideology very popular in Israel.
Based on the rest of the comments throughout this entire topic, I can only conclude that the average /. reader slept through their history classes.
To wit: yes, the Egyptian censorship is about Zion (in the movie) and Zionism. The fact that most people missed this implies they don't know what Zionism is.
Zionism refers to a Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine.. To dismiss it as "a racist ideology very popular in Israel," as above, is to ignore the roots of the mideast conflict.
Put simply, Zionism was a movement based on the belief that as long as the Jews lived as ethnic minorities in other countries, they were going to be discriminated against ("discriminated" meaning "killed and robbed whenever public tension needed an outlet" - read up on the Pogroms sometime). The Dreyfus Affair convinced a reporter named Theodor Herzl that the only solution was for a Jewish homeland. He founded the Zionism movement, with the goal of creating a Jewish state. This movement slowly fought for progress over the next 50 years (see also the Balfour Declaration)
Fast-forward to 1948. After 6 million or so Jews were killed in the Holocaust, the survivors got serious about a homeland. With lots of leftover guns lying around from World War II, they founded Israel. In doing so, they resorted to terrorism, and displaced much of the non-Jewish palestinian population.
None of the neighboring countries wanted to absorb the Palestinians, and something like 6 wars have been fought since then. So, for the Egyptians, Zionism represents a massive local disruption which they've lost wars over.
So-called "Modern Zionism" is the "racist ideology" referred to above, which basically boils down to "Jewish Israel - love it or leave it." To focus on it and ignore over 100 years of history is short-sighted.
Architect: "Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly which, despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision.
Clearly, to simplify the Matrix they're using Gausian Elimination techniques, but each entry in the Matrix is only represented with limited floating-point precision! Of course they're going to end up with error terms -- not to mention wild inaccuracies or maybe even a singularity....
Tweet, tweet.
Can you imagine Neo being somebody else than Reeves? Really, the Keanu-bashing is grating my nerves.
Zodiac Survey
It never ceases to amaze me how perfectly reasonable you can make censorship sound if you really try. What I mean is, the way the censorship board's decision is worded on the surface sounds completely reasonable, well thought-out and actually in the best interest of the Egyptian public.
Then you think for half a second longer and of course realize that censorship in any form is one of the horrible things people can do to other people.
But, when you see a statement done this well, you can see why people allow their freedoms to be taken away little by little for the greater good and then wake up one day and wonder why they can't even drive to the next town over without going through two weeks of paperwork, or read a book without being condemned as a Satan-worshipper and burned at the stake.
If a pion (n-) collides with a proton in the woods & noone is there to hear it, does lamdba decay into the source pa
A) You expose your own position by referring to Israeli Zionists as "the Jews". That's no different than me referring to Hamas as "the Muslims". In other words, perhaps you should consider your own views before casting around stones like the word "racist".
B) Most Palestinians really aren't fundamentalist Muslims. Just because fundamentalist Muslims elsewhere use the Palestinians as a rallying cry doesn't mean much. Many (if not most) Palestinians are nationalists first, and Muslims second (and not necessarily fundamentalist in their view of their religion).
C) Neither side wants minority power in a secular state. The gap dividing the peoples resulting from years of war and killing is simply too large at this point in time. Thus both sides seem to agree that a two-state solution is preferable right now, and hopefully closer cooperation and friendship will come with time and peace.
D) I think you are grossly lacking in historical knowledge if you think Zionism is a reaction to Palestinian relations. Zionism is a reaction to European anti-semitism over a very long duration of time. Zionism has nothing to do with violent attacks against Palestinians - these are policy issues of Ariel Sharon and the political hawks on the Israeli far right. Israel's parliamentary system is partly to blame (the coalitions that include ultra-conservative elements and the like). Unfortunately, the Palestinian political scene is equally galvenized, and rejects moderate leaders like Mr. Abbas.
E) Racism is a loaded word, and Americans seem to get all hot and bothered whenever we use the word (as do Europeans). Liberals - bah. When you see a group of young black men walking down the street dressed a certain way, you behave in a rational, self-protecting manner by crossing to the other side of the street. Does this mean you are a racist? When you set up checkpoints to prevent suicide bombers from entering your city, does that make you a racist? Something to think on. I will be the first one to say I wish Palestinians and Israelis could work out a way to get along, but I think people like you do a disservice to everybody when you cast the issue in such ridiculous reductionist terms. Not to mention the finger pointing, which is absurd, since you can go back and forth for hours finger pointing and never get anywhere.
the old symbol of masculinity was an inverted V which is ^ (today it retains the ^ part)
the symbol of feminity was the opposite=V
the holy grail is a symbol
the cup is how whe know the grail resembles the symbol of feminity V, the uterus (also called the matrix), the V formed in the pelvic area
so: feminine =V masculine=^
at this point we can say that the quest for the holy grail is the quest for the holy woman or the sacred feminine
who destroyed the sacred feminine? = the church
why?
in the begginings of church times, it was believed that the way to god is in the union of man and woman
the culminant moment of that union is orgasm (still used today: did you saw god face? when talking about sex)
church have its roots on the bible
the bible was written by men, who wanted to put a man as the leader, a man as the god
so, if now to see god is enough with a man, you must throw the woman out of the loop.
then, again at this point, whe can agree that the quest for the holy grail is the quest for the sacred feminine, the quest of the V, the quest for the MATRIX
who is against of the revelation (revelation is quasi the name of the next movie: revolution) of the truth of the grial? = the church
why?
because it means erasing 2000 years of bad propaganda for the woman, begining with blaming her of the original sin, for being inferior because she was created from a rib of man, and for saying that Jesus woman was a prostitute
whaaat?
Jesus wasn't divine, he had the bloodline of the families of King David and King Solomon, which means, he was meant to be the king of jewish.
Being in his 30ies jesus, a Jew, was supposed to be married, or at least with a woman, at that time was the same.
in fact he was married... with maria magdalena
look in the painting by Leoanardo DaVinci the last supper, who is on jesus right does she look like a man? not at all, she is in fact MM, jesus wife, seated at his right. And speaking of symbology, look the figure formed by Jesus and MM, a big V right in the center of the picture.
Maria Magdalena was no prostitute at all, she was in fact a descendant of Benjamin, another jew tribe King.
this union have desdendants.
say whaaaat?
exactly, now it seems logical to thing that the quest for the holy grail is not the quest for the holy woman, but the quest of whats inside the holy woman, inside the V, inside the uterus, INSIDE THE MATRIX
To reinforce this, Holy Grail root is Santo grial, whis is rooted in Sangreal, which also is rooted in sangreal, and if you split sagreal you have sang real, sangre real, and you guessed: holy blood
does it make any sense the MATRIX-GRAIL relation yet? not really, I go on
Its supposed that MM was pregnant at the time of jesus crucifiction, she was rescued by jesus uncle and moved to Gaul (Rome province, actually France) which was cared as a king daughter by the local jew community
This holy blood line developed in secrecy in france, and is believed that the founders of paris were in this line too
guess their names: Merovingian
ring any bell already?
What does the merovingian hides in the play? they hide the keymaker, an obvious allegory of the keystone which reveals the secret of the holy grail.
This secret is protected by the line of the holy blood, the templars and a secret priory: the priory of sion (look the web for it) which is believed that Leonardo Davinci was part, along with the merovingians, isaac newton and many others.
priory of sion, ring any bell already?
so, its time for my conclusion:
all of the neo's questions about what is the matrix, are in fact questions on who are his parents, his origins.
or better yet
neo is still insi
NEOCA - Custom LED Flashlights
I wish I had posted sooner, my observations seem a little under-represented.
I find great irony in Egypt being the one to ban The Matrix Reloaded. Many of you are aware of Gnostic themes in the Matrix, what some may not know is that it appears that stories of the Egyptian godman Dionysus factored heavily into Gnosticism.
After Alexander the Great's successes, he decided to create the greatest city in the world as Alexandria in Egypt. After his death, Ptolemy was determined to also make Alexandria the intellectual capital of the world. The Library of Alexandria contained, by some accounts, the sum of the world's knowledge at that point. It held important works by the greek mathematicians; notably the Pythagorean Brotherhood, Diophantus' Arithmetica and Euclid's Elements. It also held many early philosophic and gnostic works.
Of course, first Julius Caeser, then Christians and finally Muslims took turns at destroying the Library, and with it probably nearly a thousand years worth of Math. All in time, coincidentally, for the Dark Ages.
Yeah pretty boring stuff. I'd rather see Carrie Anne Moss in Latex, huh. Regardless of why you like the Matrix, or what you believe, when seen through a historical context, there is irony to this story.
If you are not afraid of spoilers, here is a very good summation of the whole original series.
There was a great deal of fan consternation about the "anticlimax" nature of the series, so when Gainax got enough of a budget together, they did not one, but (again, beware spoilers) two movies to further explore the concepts originally put across in the series. (I don't know why I wound up with three Australian sites for this info...I'm not Australian.)
In any event, "Death and Rebirth" and "End of Evangelion" were a wrapup of the narrative in the series. However, no matter how neatly Evangelion creator Anno Hideaki had wrapped things up, the true meaning of the Evangelion universe continues to be a huge topic of debate. Sort of like how the true meaning of The Matrix movies are becoming a huge topic of debate...there, I brought this back on-topic.
Anyway, it has been announced that a live-action Evangelion movie (the series and the two movies were all animated) has gone into pre-production. Gainax, ADV Films and Peter Jackson's Weta Digital effects studio are all part of this effort. For a movie which will, by necessity, have to have quite an epic sweep, the resources of these three partners which have been revealed so far seem far too limited to execute the plans. Perhaps one of the Seven Families of the Movie Industry is a part of this plan. Perhaps more than one. But the big financing has yet to be revealed. So take this all with a grain of salt.
It was this possible live-action movie to which I was referring to. If they are true to the original series and the two animated movies, they will piss off a lot of religious people in all "three great monotheisms." Just like Matrix Reloaded seems to have done in Egypt.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Dude, we're all proud of you for having just finished reading 'The Da Vinci Code' (a fabulous book), but don't post all this as though it came out of your head. This is practically verbatim from the expository sections of the book.
For a government that professes to be so concerned with religion, you'd think they'd have a better grasp of the forbidden fruit phenomenon. Can anyone remember the last time something got banned where the immediate effect wasn't to greatly increase popular interest and desire for said product? RIAA sues Napster, the next day there appears a frontpage story in every newspaper in America about this great new service that lets people download music gratis. End result: 50 million new users for Napster. CD-R tax in Canada and everyone buys a thousand, just in case. Considering I could FTP a really good, 3 SVCD Centropy Telesync over to some friend in Egypt this instant, one wonders precisely how many seconds it will take before this silly "ban" is circumvented and kids are burning copies for the whole neighborhood.
I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
I recomend you visit this message board... Matrix Reloaded (spoilers)
I think the Oracle has a plan for PeopleSoft...
Sig? We don't need no stinking sig....
Another observation: The second movie is about causality principle. The people, who think that the second movie lacked the philosophical aspect of the first movie, should read/study causality principle and watch the entire movie based on that. You would see what they are trying to explain. They are constantly critisizing whether there is free will or choice (in other words: control) They lay it out pretty well. The people, who thinks that Heisenberg's uncertainity is the proof that the universe is not bound by the rules of determinism, are wrong. Because Heisenberg's principle only states the uncertainity in the measurement. ("Nature and the Greeks and Science and Humanism", Erwin Schrodinger)
The screens have the images of the previous Ones, repeated. When zooming into the center, you can clearly hear them saying things like "There were four before me" and "There were none before me." They all talk at the same time, so listen carefully, but it's there.
"Sufferin' succotash."
> the church had enough fear of God to look into each case
> individually. Mass execution of men by formula is an
> abomination reserved exclusively for the 20th century.
Just where do you think the phrase: "Kill 'em all, and let god sort it out." came from?
The original quote was actually in French (oops... freedom) and translates closer to: "Kill them all. God will know his own."
It was during the Albigensian crusade from 1209-1255 in Catharic France. In summer of 1209, the crusaders attacked the city of Beziers, thought to hold a small enclave of Cathars (about 200 or so). The crusaders eventually sacked the city, taking the populace captive. Lacking any positive way to sort the Cathars out from the loyal Catholics, the soldiers asked the Papal Legate and head of the Cistercian monks, Abbot Arnaud-Amaury, for advice. It was Arnaud-Amaury who gave the infamous order: "Kill them all. God will know his own.".
And thus, the population of the city of Beziers, numbering 20,000 or so, was put to the sword, so as to execute the 200 heretics thought to be hiding amongst them.
cya,
john
Imagine all the people...
I realize I am posting this way too late for anyone to actually read it, butâ¦
I lived in Egypt for four years. The Film Review Board there is notoriously fickle. Some things get through that you cannot believe, others are banned for no apparent reason.
The original Matrix was a big hit in the Cairo cinemas. I was stunned that they let this deeply subversive film in the country. The plot of the movie is that your life is a lie; a simulacrum that fiendish authority figures (represented by security men in dark suits, no less) are force-feeding you so that you will docilely give them the power they need to survive. But if you know the truth, it is possible to resist, and perhaps even defeat the established authority. The very paranoid Egyptian government allowed thousands of young Egyptians to get this message at their local cinema.
On the other hand, they cut all the references to âoeZion.â
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Give me liberty or give me something of equal or lesser value from your glossy 32-page catalog.
The Matrix movies are about control as much as religion. The Egyption Gov. convieniently uses religion as its excuse, when in reality, they don't want anyone to realize the parallel between the control they exercise by banning the movie and the control the matrix gives the machines.
"The best laid plans of mice and men gang oft agley..." - ROBERT BURNS
However, in doing that, you've assumed that the answer to the riddle is an absolute truth value that is independent of your judgement -- it presupposes absolute truth -- whether or not you can know it. In that case, the only way to remedy your situation is to assume, or know (1). To assume (2) is to contradict your own reasoning and ignore logic -- supposedly the only truth you believe in.
Now try replacing "truth" in the mutual exclusivity principle with other nouns: "thought", "a spoon", "my hand". It all boils down to the same thing, whether it's abstract thought or the real world. You may not know if your hand exists, but you know absolute truth does.
If nothing I say has gotten through to you yet, I don't think I'll be able to help you. I suggest you study up on this a little bit. Take some philosophy classes when you get to college. I'd suggest a philosophical skepticism class. Read some of the works by George Moore, Wittgenstein, and Hilary Putnam. Even the harshest of recognized philosophical skeptics won't doubt that there is absolute truth, though they'll argue that you can't know it (another point I disagree with -- but that's not what we're discussing).
...just my 2 gil.
REVENGE
More specifically, Neo, through defeating and inadverting freeing Smith, took away his "purpose". He gives a quick speech about this to Neo before attempting to gang rape him. Smith is trying to return the favor, that is, he is attempting to make Neo irrelevant. Either he will 1) kill him, which was his original purpose he still holds on to, or 2) destroy the Matrix by converting all of its inhabitants into him, leaving Neo no one to free.
He's taking this frustration that comes with his new freedom and directing it back on his liberator. How pathetic: he so desperately wanted out of the Matrix, and now that he's free he sees no other option but to remain there and make Neo suffer even moreso.
Poor thing. He's not coping very well without dogma, is he? And I like Smith...
(well, I like Hugo Weaving, I think he's the best cast member).
Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
Everything you say is correct, but I still don't see how it explains why the "anomaly" would cause "fluctuations" in "even the most simplistic equations". I mean, everything you say just comes down to "the problem is choice", as Neo said. But, while this is a good plot device, it's not intuitively plausible. What kind of special issues does choice raise? Sure, humans are unpredictable, but what exactly are the nature of the "fluctuations" that the humans are able to induce? Is that how Neo and friends are able to make the Matrix conform to their wills? It's not obvious why a system that doesn't allow this to happen would necessarily be unacceptable to humans.
Understand that I'm not saying that the movie should have explained this, both because it would have had to go into a lot of depth to fully satisfy me (taking away screen time and likely boring the rest of the audience) and because until we see the third movie, we won't really know what to make of all this anyway. And I wouldn't point out things like this in Star Wars or whatever at all. It's only because the Matrix series seems to aspire to "hard" sci-fi status that I think these kinds of criticisms are even relevant.
I metamoderate all Redundant and Offtopic moderations as Unfair.
Actually, my favorite plot theories (although admittedly also the least likely to be presented as fact in Revolutions) make the whole battery thing not be true, for whatever reason. For example: the machines are actually serving man, just in a really complicated way; or the machines are keeping them around as museum pieces or pets of a sort. (The most common theory that would have the humans-as-batteries thing not be true, of course, are the Zion-is-another-Matrix theories, but while I think Reloaded was deliberately intended to give some fuel to those theories, I also think it's extremely unlikely that they will be presented as fact in Revolutions.)
Heh, I make that typo all the time too, although I usually catch it.
Well, I was able to understand what he was saying, but it sounded... imprecise. As Brendan Byrd said elsewhere in this thread, the Architect was generally extremely careful in word choice, which makes a metaphorical usage of "design" sound odd.
I metamoderate all Redundant and Offtopic moderations as Unfair.
My guess is that the Oracle has a plan for Neo that is outside the scope of the Matrix's purpose for the One.
That's right people, IMHO it is all about the ORACLE. All of this other crap is hokey. She is the one that set all of this up. She is the one that sees things for what they are... and after all... SHE IS THE ONE THAT WAS DESIGNED AS THE HUMAN ADVOCATE, the one that was sent to "find a permanent solution to all of this." And one of the things that the movie harps on is effect and purpose. Well, we know what she was designed for. TO BE OUR OVERMOTHER. Well, she is fulfilling her purpose. She loves her kids and wants the best for them... and that ain't the Matrix.
As she has said before, "We all got to get along, Kiddo. And we all have a purpose." She knows human nature better than we do. She knows what is best, she just has to push her "children" to do what is best and get out of a bad situation. She goads you to do it. She even tells you that she is telling you what you need to hear. She laughs about it. Then offers you something you cannot resist like cookies or candy. To make you happy. She wants all her kids to be happy. Just like every mother. But she is behind it all.
The second theme of the Matrix movies is that no one can tell you your purpose no matter how many roadblocks they put up, real or not. You have a purpose and it will come out. Mom just shows you the door.
The Oracle is setting up a system that both machines and humans can get along together in. She is the one that set up Zion long ago much to the chagrin of her "ex-husband" the Architecht. She is the one that goads them along. She is the one that carries on caring for people while the system beats them down. That is her job. And her job is to find a solution. She found it. The "best solution" is not the Matrix. It has something to do with Neo's instant evolution at the end of the movie. That was a way for people to control them in the real world. Neo just made an evolution. OR SAY, "revolutions."
My guess is that it has something to do with humans and AIs getting on equal ground with each other, creating a new symbiotic relationship instead of parasitic. But then again, that is my idea.
Just keep in mind that it was the Oracle that is a machine that thinks like a human, and that Neo is a human that thinks like a machine. They are different sides of the same coin. And that is why she uses him to effect change.
See why she likes him?
"Now have some candy...
I didn't intend to say that there is a direct link between poverty and terrorism. That is not what we're seeing. Most of the poor population is very passive, sometimes that's good, because most of the population don't want a war, they're not going to kill anybody, and sometimes it is bad, as it is very hard to have a popular uprising against dictators.
What poverty does create, is a general sentiment that someone else is responsible for your misery, a sentiment that can then be exploited. The next problem is that that allthough the vast majority would never resort to terrorism, a very small minority would, and those who think they have the resources to "do something" will "do something". Under the wrong circumstances, this something will be terrorism.
If malaysians were all big, fat and had no percieved enemies, the prime minister would not be listened to, would he?
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