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Computers and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome Studied

pioneer writes "An article on MSNBC.com reports that a Danish study has found that computer use is not a significant risk factor for carpal tunnel syndrome. Not sure about you, but I spent a lot of time learning dvorak and kinesis to prevent just that... the 'inevitable' onslaught of RSI/carpal tunnel/etc."

76 of 365 comments (clear)

  1. For geeks like us... by jabbadabbadoo · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...the wrist can hurt for many reason.

    1. Re:For geeks like us... by Unominous+Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      what about your other wrist? or is this another case of one hand not knowing where the other one is?

      --
      "Smoking helps you lose weight - one lung at a time" -- A. E. Neumann
    2. Re:For geeks like us... by Mostly+Harmless · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, being a computer geek, musician and hockey player, I couldn't tell you which of the three makes my wrists hurt. But I can tell you what makes them feel better -- a little exercise.

      --
      "`Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it.'" -Douglas Adams, THHGTTG
  2. phew that's a relief... by sweeney37 · · Score: 4, Funny

    But what about that other activity that is associated with a man, and his wrist. Is it a significant risk factor?

    I'm asking....for a friend.

    Mike

    1. Re:phew that's a relief... by jabbadabbadoo · · Score: 3, Funny

      I've heard that women can have the very same problem. For them, the syndom also appears to apply to jaws.

    2. Re:phew that's a relief... by ajs318 · · Score: 3, Funny

      ..... and the banana curve effect .....

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    3. Re:phew that's a relief... by smithmc · · Score: 3, Funny

      But what about that other activity that is associated with a man, and his wrist. Is it a significant risk factor?

      I dunno - does your "friend" engage in... that other activity... eight hours a day, five days a week? If so, well, then your "friend" probably has other issues to deal with.

      --
      Downmodding is the refuge of the weak. Don't downmod, make a better argument!
  3. Arr Laddy! by jellomizer · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tell this to me Captin Jello! I got the Hook to replace my hand loss from Carpal Tunnel. And I lost an Eye from it too. Arr!

    --
    If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
  4. Not Ineveitable by msheppard · · Score: 5, Interesting

    My opinion is that the younger you started the less likely you are to have problems. I've been at a keyboard since before 10yrs old, and now, over 30, I don't have any problems at all, either eye sight or wrist/hand related. No special keyboards, no left/right hand mouse switching.

    M@

    --
    Krispy Cream is people
    1. Re:Not Ineveitable by Troed · · Score: 5, Informative

      I started using computers with a mouse when I was 12, and I've had extreme problems. I'm now using a mouse with my left hand (I'm right-handed) at home, a trackball (centered in front of the keyboard) at work. I also use a natural keyboard at work and a normal at home. If I sit extended periods of time I get a tingling/freezing feeling in my index fingers (yeah, I'm not touch typing fully) and I regulary have neck pains and pains in my upper arms.

      I seriously question this study - I've seen numerous fellow employees at various companies who have dealt with their RSI problems in different ways. (Here's one tip for managers: raise the temperature! Sitting in a cold draft only worsens things).

    2. Re:Not Ineveitable by andy1307 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Its been less than 10 years since a large number of people have started using computers everyday. It's too early to predict the long term health effects. Someone i know had real bad back pains because of her posture when she used a computer. 20 years from now, a significant percentage of us could suffer from things like back aches and bad eyesight...It's just too early to say.

    3. Re:Not Ineveitable by Surak · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's actually a lot of factors that contribute to carpal tunnel. I'm the same as you, I have no problems and have never used special keyboards or R/L hand mouse switching. A programmer friend of mine has to wear the wrist braces because his CTS is so bad, and he also started when he was young.

      Some things include factors such as your own work habits. For instance, do you take breaks from the keyboard and mouse? I take a break every couple of hours to stretch my legs, otherwise I start to get that cramps in my legs from sitting for too long. This is *good* for the wrists and highly encouraged by doctors to avoid RSIs such as CTS. Also the *size* of ones wrists could be a factor -- people with larger wrists have larger nerve pathways, and hence (possibly) a decreased risk for nerves getting pinched. I have large wrists -- so large in fact that many bracelets will not fit me.

    4. Re:Not Ineveitable by mshumphr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think starting age is involved, actually. To me, it appears to be a strength of the hands thing. I have some of the symptoms of carpal tunnel and have fought off repeated stress injury. Four fingers tingled from the impact of hitting keys too much. I know a guy who has extremely severe carpal tunnel, to the point that he needed surgery back in high school.. He and I both started using computers before we were ten years old, and we are both around 25 now. We also have similarly structured hands.

      An the other side, you have people like my father and my co-workers who all have, I can only describe it as "thicker", hands. Larger fingers, larger wrists, more apparent mass there. None of them have any problems at all.

      And then (just to be complete) there's the guy with tiny, thin hands and an old IBM keyboard (you know... the kind of thing that could survive a fall from the fourth floor) who pounds on the keyboard continuously... and has absolutely no problems at all.

      Since my hands always feel worse when I'm typing, and the pain continues after a long coding session, I have wonder what these people who wrote the article can point to as the actual source of carpal tunnel and RSI. It would be one thing to say that computer use is not the primary cause of it. It's something else entirely to say that computer use has no impact, or that the syndroms don't actually exist at all.

    5. Re:Not Ineveitable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Actually, the more likely cause is the fact that most people lean on their elbows. This cause inflamation of the ulner nerve, which results in tingling in the fingers, usually starting with the pinky fingers. This can be solved quite easily by wearing elbow pads for a period of a week to 3 weeks, and taking a Super B Complex vitamin daily.

      Same symptoms as Carpal Tunnel, different reason.

    6. Re:Not Ineveitable by Transient0 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      > I seriously question this study - I've seen
      > numerous fellow employees at various companies
      > who have dealt with their RSI problems in
      > different ways.

      I have to agree. I happen to currently work at a centre for adaptive technology people with disabilities. A pretty significant portion of our clientele are people with Repetitive Strain Injury and of those I'd estimate about 90 percent are coders or professional writers. I haven't made a graph or calculated p-values for this, but from what I remember of my undergrad stats course, I would say that that is a pretty damn significant correlation.

      There are several varieties of RSI of which CTS is only one and not the most common. I notice that the article never mention the larger family of RSIs. I wonder if this is intentional. Perhaps keyboard use does not significantly increase risk for CTS but does for other RSIs and this is a matter of selective reporting by the researchers.

      I'm concerned that this might just be a half assed study, but that it might end up being quoted to prevent a lot of people who definitely deserve work hazard or disability compensation from receiving it.

    7. Re:Not Ineveitable by musicmaker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I would have to disagree with this also. I started programming when I was nine, and started to have trouble with my wrists when I hit 21 (also about two years after I learned how to touch type). I have since switched to an ergonomic keyboard which has cleared up the problem completely.

      In Europe there are pretty strict regulations about the environment around VDU workers (people sitting at a computer). I have to wonder if many people's problem is not their environment. I have seen far too many people lower their chair practicaly to the floor, and then wonder why they get problems with their wrists. People also seem to think that it's okay to sit sideways at a desk looking at a screen on an angle, or at a screen with their head turned. This is a sure way to develop neck and back problems. A poor chair is another issue. They have to support your back properly so you can relax as you type, otherwise you will develop back problems. Your elbows should idealy be at the level of your wrists at the keyboard. If they are lower, you are asking for problems. A good friend of mine at University was studying physiotherapy, and they had found the wrist rests can actualy do more harm than good, as people tend to rest their wrists on them whilst typing. This is another way you can develop problems. Wrist rests are for resting your wrist on whilst you are not typing!
      All in all I have seen very few people who have good posture, and a well configured work environment have problems with RSI. This is not the first study like this to be published.

      http://www.tifaq.com/archive/rsi_article.txt
      This is a link to an article published in the independant in 1993 that talks about RSI being totaly preventable by simply ensuring workers have well designed environment.

      --
      Everyone is living in a personal delusion, just some are more delusional than others.
    8. Re:Not Ineveitable by ImpTech · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > ...from what I remember of my undergrad stats course, I would say that that is a pretty damn significant correlation.

      From what I remember from my stats course, correlation does not imply causality.

      Sorry, I couldn't resist that. Truthfully, I find this study hard to believe too.

    9. Re:Not Ineveitable by malia8888 · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Transient0 lightly touched on what could be a key point in this study. He said, "I'm concerned this might be just a half assed study, but that it might end up being quoted to prevent a lot of people who definitely deserve work hazard or disability compentsation from receiving it."

      From the article, The research, appearing in this weekâ(TM)s Journal of the American Medical Association, was conducted by the Department of Occupational Medicine, Herning Hospital, Herning, Denmark, with financing from the Danish Medical Research Council and the Danish Ministry of Employment, National Work Environment Authority.

      Perhaps our Danish Slashdotters could fill us in about the organizations who funded this study. It very well could have been funded by government or insurance interests who have money to save by not having to pay for work related injuries.

      I would look it up in Google and do the research for myself. I would also expound upon my research results at length; however, my eyes are sore from this monitor glare and my wrists are killing me.

      --
      Harpo Tunnel Syndrome--my wrist feels funny.
    10. Re:Not Ineveitable by ZESTA · · Score: 2, Informative

      If your pinky is numb, it is from something other than CTS. I recently had CTS surgery in my right hand, and will soon for my left. CTS does not effect the pinky or the pinky side of your ring finger, as those areas are served by a nerve that is outside of the carpal tunnel.

      -Randy

    11. Re:Not Ineveitable by Kooglebot · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong. Not the same symptoms, because it is not the pinky and ring finger that are most affected by CTS. There are many forms of RSI, and it's just as silly to say that are most likely to be Cubital Tunnel Syndrome (i.e. a pinched ulnar nerve at the elbow) as it is to say that they are all Carpal TS.

      You are right in pointing out that leaning on the elbow will inflame the ulnar nerve, but I don't lean on my elbows when I type (and I'm careful not to at any other time) and I'm really hurting from this. Just having the elbows bent aggravates the problem. I lowered my keyboard (to lower the angle of my arms when typing) and that has helped, but frankly, I am on the verge of quitting my job because of it. When I type, it hurts, and when I stop, it goes away.

    12. Re:Not Ineveitable by Troed · · Score: 2, Informative

      The study considers 7 hours a day to be a lot - and concentrates on keyboard use. My work day is longer than 7 hours - and then I do spend time at home also in front of a computer. Also, a keyboard is _nothing_ compared to a mouse when it comes to causing CTS.

  5. I'm living proof. by Surak · · Score: 4, Funny

    I've been using computers for heavily decades and I've never had any real effects from it all. Ow! Now only if that tingling in my hands would go away...

  6. Dutch study? by stefanvt · · Score: 5, Informative

    Actually the article says it's a Danish study ...

  7. As I write this... by Jerk+City+Troll · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...both of my wrists are cramping up. The more I type, worse my wrists get. Sadly, I'm a programmer. That doesn't help things. I cannot agree with a study that tries to disassociate repetitive motion with RMI. That's just bologna.

    1. Re:As I write this... by Surak · · Score: 2, Informative

      The cramping of wrists actually has nothing to do with CTS. CTS != RSI, but CTS is ONE kind of RSI, as someone else pointed out. You could have an RSI, but not necessarily CTS.

      IANAD.

  8. I just figured by jonjohnson · · Score: 2, Interesting

    that since I've been using computers since 1st grade (I'm now out in the world working), that it was a load of crap.

    Also, my eyesight hasn't gotten worse, it's better.

    Oh well, I wonder how long until that study comes out.

  9. Maybe not computer use... by Comatose-M · · Score: 4, Funny

    But I know for a fact that a 10 hour playstation session can cause me to develop some awful pain in my fingers.

    Is Nintendo thumb an accepted medical term yet?

  10. Then what causes it? by d3faultus3r · · Score: 2, Interesting

    As far as I can tell carpal tunnel syndrome occurs mostly in people with desk jobs that involve computers, not industrial work, which was mentioned as a possible cause in the study. If it's not keyboard use then what is it?

    --
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    musings on politics and technol
  11. CTS != RSI by squarooticus · · Score: 4, Informative

    If the article header is accurate, then Pioneer should be informed that carpal tunnel syndrome is only an INSTANCE of RSI, and the two are not equal. It is, in fact, still possible that every single other type of RSI has computer use as a significant risk factor and not contradict this study.

    --
    [ home ]
  12. Heavy computer use: 7 hours a day? by BreadMan · · Score: 5, Informative
    Says the article:

    According to the (U.S.) National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke, a 2001 study conducted by the Mayo Clinic also found that heavy computer use â" up to seven hours a day â" did not increase the userâ(TM)s risk of developing the injury.

    I don't know about you, but my computer usage averages about 10 hours a day. However, I don't know if I actually type for 7 hours out of the ten, after factoring in meetings and other productivity boosters.

    I worry more about my eyes than wrists. I may not be typing 100 wpm constantly, but I am looking at my monitors even when not typing.
  13. Re:Dutch study? (Now Danish?) by splutty · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Okay. Either I misread it the first time over, or the editor in charge already changed it (I hope the latter, otherwise eye sight problems might have been induced by severe monitor use)

    But to reply on the matter at hand (no pun intended), any sort of work which forces you into the same type of repetitive movements or the same position for hours on end, has serious health repercussions. If this study 'proves' (for as far as you can do that in a statistical study) that computer keyboard use isn't the primary cause for CTS, then it's still a useless study. If it would have been a study to what *does* cause these kind of problems, it would be of a lot more use to the generic population of computer users.

    I'll wait for this study to appear before drawing any conclusions. On the base of this article, any comment would be straining for significance. It doesn't describe the testing methods, it doesn't describe the age group, it doesn't describe the previous work, etc, etc.

    On just this article, I don't think anyone can make any intelligent comments (and I'll include myself in that as well :)

    Mad.

    --
    Coz eternity my friend, is a long *ing time.
  14. Then how... by Eythian · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If this is the case, I wonder how it came to be that computer use was associated with RSI/carpal tunnel.

    I had always heard (can anyone verify this?) that it was mouse use, in particular with scroll-wheels, that was the main offender.

  15. Kinesis? by Tickenest · · Score: 2, Funny

    but I spent a lot of time learning dvorak and kinesis to prevent just that

    Maybe if he'd put some more time into telekinesis he'd still have a useful skill.

    --
    This is the NFL, which stands for "Not For Long" if you keep making those bulls*** calls.
  16. True by macemoneta · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Computer use is no more a cause for repetitive stress injuries than any other activity. The difference is that people don't seem to stop for a while when their bodies tell them to.

    I've been keyboarding long days for 26+ years now (and "mousing" since 1984). When I start to feel a little cramped, I stop for a few minutes. No carpel tunnel injuries.

    Likewise, my vision hasn't changed over the same period, for the same reason. Eyes get tired? Stop. Look around (at a distant object). Close them for a minute.

    Repetitive stress injuries are self-inflicted wounds. The psychology behind the activity would be more interesting to read about, but I haven't seen any articles on that subject.

    --

    Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.

  17. Personal experience by 1000101 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Just like most of you, I've been typing on computers for years. I've never experienced any sort of Carpal Tunnel due to typing. This doesn't mean I'm immune however. Last year I painted the interior of my entire house and suffered severe wrist pain and numbness. My wife is a Physical Therapist and diagnosed me with Carpal Tunnel. For me anyway, computer keyboards are harmless.

  18. mouse is a problem by BenjyD · · Score: 2, Insightful
    From the article:

    The researchers said they did find an association between use of a mouse for more than 20 hours a week and a slightly elevated risk of a possible problem but no statistically significant association with keyboard use.

    So mouse usage is a problem, but the keyboard isn't. Guess I should stop playing Battlefield 1942 at work then.
  19. no, EMACS causes CTS by wfmcwalter · · Score: 5, Funny

    M-x show-mappings

    C-M-g pain
    C-M-G agony
    C-M-T paralysis

    Look at the inventors of *emacs: Stallman - CTS. Gosling - CTS. Zawinsky - weird. Wing - bald.

    In the absence of "emacs peddles", the confirmed emacs user is doomed (dooomed).

    (in next week's exciting episode: "Perl and your spermcount - the shocking truth").

    --
    ## W.Finlay McWalter ## http://www.mcwalter.org ##
  20. Typing doesn't cause RSI by willith · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Typing doesn't cause carpal tunnel, or any other RSI. Improper wrist positioning will do it, though. "Traditional" touch-typing on a QWERTY keyboard (fingers on the home row, ASDF JKL;) crimps up your wrists and is just bloody unnatural.

    I've been typing since I was five--I'm twenty-five now. I type at ~100WPM. Because I'm self-taught, I don't use the traditional touch-type method. When I type, my hands are at about a 45 degree angle to the keyboard; if I had a "home row", it would be something like QSDC MKLP. I hit whichever key with whichever finger is closest. My wrists stay straight and uncrimped.

    I type multiple hours per day, every day, and I don't suffer fatigue, carpal tunnel, RSI, or any of that other business. My touch-typing coworkers walk around with braces on each wrist, and gingerly ease themselves down in front of split-key ergo keyboards and start wincing when they have to type for more than a few minutes.

    Keyboarding doesn't cause RSI. Traditional, wrist-crimping touch-typing causes RSI.

    1. Re:Typing doesn't cause RSI by maw · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ah, kindred typist :) I've never had any problems due to typing either. However, be careful about excessive mousing - I did have pains in my right hand from excessive mousing. Taking off a long weekend away from computers helped, as did buying a mousepad with a wrist support.

      --
      You're a suburbanite.
  21. My own experience confirms this by dave2112 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    While still in college (10+yrs ago) I developed CTS in both wrists while working on a landscaping crew. I've found it doesn't slow me down at the keyboard now-a-days ... I'm a fulltime programmer

    l8r

  22. Do what? by vbprisoner · · Score: 2, Informative

    Try telling this to the people (about 6) I know who have had supportive treatments and/or operations.

    It has occured to me that all these people are females in their 40's or 50's, who are generally receptionists, keying in data whilst on the phone.


    I've had a mild case & switching to one of the specialist keyboards has helped. I use a Fingerworks TouchStream ST - excellent but it takes some getting used to, is a right old pain if you work in the UK and need to use the £ sign (character map etc etc).

    The mouse thing is interesting - I have found that most problems occur in the hand that isn't using the mouse, as it's being lifted of the keyboard whilst mousing.

    --
    But I wore the juice
  23. With all due respect... by rkent · · Score: 5, Interesting

    With all due respect to my computer-using brethren, I can entirely understand this and have long suspected the same.

    Carpal-Tunnel and RSI were originally diagnosed in women who worked at "sweatshop" textile factories in the early part of the industrial revolution. Sewing is WAY harder on your hands than typing, and so it probably ran rampant in that environment. But there was almost no treatment; women were by and large told to "suck it up" and stop complaining, because it was "just" pain afterall, it's not like they broke anything.

    It wasn't until millions of white men started working with keyboards and a VERY SMALL percentage of them got RSI, that it became worthy of national attention. And so now, if you get diagnosed with RSI, you can get disability pay, early retirement, or at least many ergonomic adjustments to facilitate your recovery... IF you're white.

    One of the groups who suffer RSI at a much higher rate than computer users: meat packers. Today's meat packing plants run 2-3 times faster, sometimes more, than their historical counterparts, and some cutters have to slice through 60-80 pounds of meat over 100 times an hour. I promise, this will burn out your wrists WAY faster than writing an ActiveX module. But most meat plant workers are Hispanic, and/or non-English speakers. They get $9 an hour, minimal benefits, and, like women in textile factories of old, are usually told to shut up and quit if they don't like it when their wrists are in searing pain.

    So, by and large CT/RSI is an affluent white excuse to complain about jobs we aren't "satisfied" with. The people who are truly suffering from these conditions are largely ignored and always have been.

    1. Re:With all due respect... by Lulu+of+the+Lotus-Ea · · Score: 2

      There is no question that meat packing is a far more dangerous occupation than is keyboard work (and likewise more dangerous is sweatshop textile work). Not a lot of computer programmers suffer amputated limbs from what they do at work, nor even autoimmune reactions from constant cuts. And RSI is much worse in meat packing (and fish processing still more so).

      But that's a somewhat incomplete observation. While there is certainly racism, sexism, and class bias underlying what gets medical focus, especially in the popular media, it is also quite plainly the case that a heck of a lot more people use keyboards than pack meat. Not only professional programmers--with the rise of personal computers, nearly ever whilte- and pink- color job involves extensive keyboard use (and many in medical, warehousing, etc). The RSI rates are lower in these areas, but the base population is quite high.

      I don't think a lot of white-color workers get disability and paid retirement when they get repetitive stress injuries. But I'm sure more white-color workers get reasonable workplace accomodation (ergonomic adjustments) than do blue-color workers who equally need it (or more-so). Still, the moral *I* draw from that is that MORE workplace accomodation is necessary for all workers.

      Btw. A number of posters have made the specious and offensive argument that since they have used keyboards for N years, and do not suffer RSIs, then the whole issue must be whiners and liars making false claims (or it must be lack of exercise, proper typing technique, etc; the last have limited points, but the injuries are still genuine). I wonder if these same posters would like to offer some wisdom on how cancer is a media sham, and it never hurt anyone... since after all THEY don't have cancer (even after using X chemical or whatever).

    2. Re:With all due respect... by figa · · Score: 2, Informative
      My family doctor told me to get a "gripper" when my RSI first set in, and that's what finally put me over the edge. I'm now seeing a occupational medicine specialist, and she literally laughed at the "gripper" when I told her about it. RSI is not caused by lack of strength, it's caused by overuse. Adding 50 more reps to your hands is going to make things worse.

      The best thing you can do to prevent RSI is take breaks on the computer and do aerobic exercise. Swimming, walking and elliptical stationary machines are the best, from my experience.

      As for the original post, it's inhuman what the US does to meat processing workers. Unfortunately, being white doesn't make my now purple hands feel any better. Everyone needs access to affordable healthcare, physical therapy, and preventative medicine. The current administration's gutting OSHA and undermining its ergonomics recommendations was a terrible blow to everyone.

  24. It's not typing, it's "wrist rests" by Verteiron · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've been typing since I was about 6... at age 20 or so I began to experience symptoms of a RSI, tingling fingers, burning pain in the wrist, etc etc. So I took some steps. I got an ergonomic keyboard for home, and those gel pads that supposedly help you keep your wrists up. The tingling got worse and worse over the next few weeks. What seemed to hurt the worst was actually resting my wrist on the pad while typing. So I stopped. I began typing by keeping my hands in the air at all times, keeping the backs of my hands level with my forearms, and letting my fingers fall down to the keyboard rather than reaching out toward it. It looked weird, but it was the only way I could type without wincing.

    The pain was gone within 2 weeks. The last the of tingling faded away (except in the pinky of my right hand, which seems to be related to mouse use) a month or so later. As long as I keep up this spidery-looking typing style, my hands don't hurt.

    Might be worth a try to those of you experiencing pain.

    --
    End of lesson. You may press the button.
    1. Re:It's not typing, it's "wrist rests" by laughing_badger · · Score: 2, Interesting
      That would be because it is a wrist rest. You are supposed to rest your wrists on it when you stop typing.

      As other posters have mentioned, the correct typing position is with your wrists straight, your hands hovering over the keyboard, and your fingers dangling down (relaxed) to press the keys. The intent of the wrist rest is that when you stop typing, you do not rest your wrists on the desk and bend them backwards as your fingers rest on the raised keyboard.

      Used correctly, a wrist rest can help relieve RSI. However learning to position your hands properly, relax, and sit properly will all do far more for you.

      Pop quiz (hotshot): How many muscles in you neck and belly are taught at the moment?

      Check by trying to relax a few. If you are like me you will find that your shoulders drop by about an inch and your gut comes out by about the same amount (curse that tasty beer). Doing that check once an hour will help you to stay relaxed while at the keyboard. Again, less pain.

      --
      Help children born unable to swallow - www.tofs.org.uk
  25. DVORAK is crap? by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 2, Insightful
    The submitter learned a Dvorak keyboard to combat RSI? What's with that?

    Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I can certainly count on that around here...) but I thought it was pretty widely accepted that the Dvorak keyboard being faster or better is a myth.

    ...

    Alright, a quick Google reveals that this is not commonly accepted. The defense is pretty shaky thought ("the Navy wouldn't do that.")

    Anyways, repetitive movements are what cause the (quetionable) RSI condition, and I don't see how changing the keyboard layout would help, short of something more radical like one of those Logitech/MS 'natural' keyboards... and I don't believe Dvorak is inherently any faster than Qwerty; when comparing two people who know both very well, the typing speeds are probably the same.

    You'd do much better to lower your keyboard to take the strain off your wrists. Most people keep their keyboards too high.

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
    1. Re:DVORAK is crap? by pioneer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Somebody correct me if I'm wrong (I can certainly count on that around here...) but I thought it was pretty widely accepted that the Dvorak keyboard being faster or better is a myth.

      Dvorak is not crap. When people watch me type they usually comment that my fingers hardly move. I watch people type on a qwerty and their fingers are all over the place for most words. Dvorak is optimized for the english language and most words can be typed on the home row. (~1600 to be specific).

      About the military (lack of) adoption. The military found that learning dvorak took about 50 hours to reach proficiency while learing qwerty took several weeks. I believe the legend is that they would have switched but there was corporate pressure for the typewriter makers.

      (Remember, qwerty was originally developed to prevent the typewriter from getting mechanically stuck... not efficiency for typing)

      My only problems with dvorak is that it isn't optimized for c/java code because the brackets and some other characters are kinda a bitch to get at. for that there are emacs key bindings and kinesis keyboard macros. though typing in a language like lisp/scheme or a more verbal language (more reserved words, like vhdl/vb/) is a delight because most of the typing done is done typing words.

      radical like one of those Logitech/MS 'natural' keyboards

      natural keyboards are crap. check out a real ergonomic keyboard [kinesis-ergo.com]. Natural keyboards have positive wrist angle which is really bad for you. With the kinesis, not only do my fingers move less with dvorak, but the kinesis eliminates any need for wrist swivel.

  26. Clarification of CTS versus RSI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    There is a big difference between CTS and RSI. Unfortunately, most people do not get that. CTS is relatively rare, extremely painful, and is very difficult to get rid of once you have it. CTS can sometimes be fixed by wrist surgery. The basic deal with CTS is that your carpal tunnel is too small for the goods running through it once they swell. You are in deep shyte if you get diagnosed with CTS


    RSI is basically tendinitis. There are a million causes for it and it is hard to track down. If you get it, you have to spend a good deal of time tracking down exactly where the cause is.


    Both are awful to have. But you can't appreciate the pain until you get it. It is disabling...try to get through your day without hands. Driving, eating, washing...all the basic necessities hurt like hell.


    Computer use is certainly a good aggravator, but you can get it from a variety of ways. It is very much a black science when you go to the doctor. Some people have the most awful ergonomics but suffer nothing, while people with perfect ergonomics get it.

  27. Home row by eGabriel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This asdf jkl; thing really cramps my style, to put it punnily. Since I was a wee lad, I have been typing in my own style, without any major trouble. A few times along the line I have tried to type in the traditional way, and since I mentally know where the keys are by now, can adjust well enough to type that way at a modest rate. I find, though, that my hands become cramped very quickly then, especially on my Happy Hacking keyboard, but even on my large IBM Model M.

    I have seen enough coworkers walking around with wrist braces bearing real enough grimaces to take the problem of wrist pain seriously, and don't think they were making it up. So I have experimented with "ergonomic" keyboards, including the Microsoft Natural. While it is comfortable to "touch type" on the Natural, it is even more comfortable to type my way. I believe it is because the way I type, my hands can always fall back to a relaxed position, elbows wherever they need to be, rather than the uncomfortable T-Rex arms I have when using the home row.

    These researchers conceded that mousing might be at fault, and I have found that the best thing I have done for wrist and shoulder comfort was to get a Happy Hacking and a small trackball. The sole reason being that getting rid of the numeric keyboard put the mousing device a good deal closer to my hand.

  28. Remapping much used keys by takev · · Score: 2, Informative

    I use a computer about 80 hours a week, which
    is a lot I know. And a few months ago I got a pain in my left wrist, so I stopped and actualy took some sick leave.

    But even after a week it still was painfull to type, so I tried to find out why and I located the problem to using the ctrl key, which made my hand strain (especialy the ctrl-b and ctrl-f combinations).

    The solution was rather simple, I remamped my ctrl key to the caps-lock key (old keyboards actualy had the ctrl key there). And I disabled the old ctrl key so that I would unlearn to use it.

    The next day and ever since I'm typing happely again. Except, I get confused when I have to type on some one elses workstation :-)

    BTW I already had the caps-lock disabled anyway, because I mostly use vi and it is rather anoying to see your lines joined instead of moving downwards, when you accidentaly have activated the caps-lock.

  29. Ergonomic issues by Schezar · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've noticed that most people I've known who have these problems use low sensitivity settings for their mice, and often move their whole arm and wrist .

    Everyone else I know, however, uses extremely high sensitivity and accelleration settings. (I tweaked the reg keys in Windows to get it as high as I wanted.) I grip the mouse lightly with my fingers, and only they move. My wrist, my arm: both remain stationary. The mouse itself moves no more than a half-inch in any direction no matter what I'm doing (and at 1600px no less).

    I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that these problems are avoidable, and they're caused by poor practices more than anything else.

    In the infinite wisdom of the Polish Doctor from the old joke, "Stop doing that!"

    --
    GeekNights!
    Late Night Radio for Geeks!
  30. will somebody explain to me by corvi42 · · Score: 2, Informative

    if its not a significant risk, then why did I get nearly debilitating pain in my wrists when I coded all day long with a standard keyboard, but it went away as soon as I switched to an M$ natural keyboard? I'd never had such pain before, and since I've switched, I haven't had it return. I'd say that this pain was "caused" by the use of a lousy keyboard for long periods - but maybe I'm deluding myself.

    --

    There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
  31. Programmers are a bunch of whiney bitches... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    A long time ago in a land far, far away, I used to be a forest worker... you know, a lumberjack. I know people who *really* got carpel tunnel from swinging axes all day removing bush and I personally got carpel tunnel trimming trees (which involves hoisting a 30lb running chainsaw completely above my head) and brush. I *know* what real carpel tunnel feels like as your muscles and tendons rub the mylar insulation away from critical nevers that control your hand and arms. It feels like you just got hit with 600volts. There's a reason that chainsaw carrying forest wokers wear steel toed boots, heavy gloves, eye protection and kevlar chapps.... because it sucks when you bleed to death in the woods because carpel tunnel caused you to drop your chainsaw while it's running at full tilt with the throttle lock on.

    Next time I hear about a programmer getting a worker's comp. settlement because of carpel tunnel, I think I'll stop by their house and strap them to a running 36" chainsaw for 8 hours. Unless carpel tunnel causes your to fall out of your fancy aeron chair in sudden, shocking pain, then you don't have carpel tunnel... what you have is a work ethic problem combined with an ineptitude for figuring out how to use voice recognition software.

  32. Hmm... by dasmegabyte · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder if this is one of those cancer-in-rats things. Feed a rat some insane dosage of something and surprise surprise, that rat gets cancer. Then somebody finally does a study with normal exposure (e.g. typing MAYBE 10k-20k characters per diem) and finds that it doesn't hurt you.

    But what about those of use who use keyboards a LOT -- and use cramped, uncomfortable keyboards like those on laptops and palmtops a LOT. I mean, I am typing pretty much nonstop for about 16 hours a day. I have huge hands (with a size 12 ring finger) -- and sometimes, they just hurt. The 500k+ impacts per day on this click tactile keyboard can't be doing me any good. Am I the cancer rat? Can I safely ignore this stupid warning label engraved in my otherwise stylish black dell keyboard? Or can I expect the ligaments in my index finger to just tear one day, like a linebacker's ACL? Can you come back from such an injury? CAN I DROP MY LLOYDS' POLICY?!?

    --
    Hey freaks: now you're ju
  33. Confirms my thoughts by Chilles · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This article confirms what a few of my friends and I have been saying for a while. We all are very active computer users (>10h/day usually, using computers for at least 15 years), and we all only suffer from pain in the wrist when we allow our stress levels to rise to intolerable heights or when we're doing something we really dislike.
    From what I've seen in other people everybody who had severe wrist/arm/shoulder complaints that they were relating to their computer work was either:
    - Working under a lot of stress and/or time pressure for prolonged periods.
    or:
    - Not happy with their work or their work situation.
    I think that computer use puts you in a certain heightened risk group for RSI/carpal tunnel but in my opinion you only "get" RSI or carpal tunnel when you are under a lot of stress or generally not in a very relaxed/happy mental state.

    I find that when I voice this opinion in the real world, people tend to be very offended by it... so just for the record, this is not a troll.

  34. Do you exercise? by SPYvSPY · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It seems to me that a lot of people complaining about RSI are in crap shape to begin with. Obviously, if you rarely stretch your body and use it in an atheletic capacity, (or if you are an athelete, but you don't properly stretch) it will start catching up to you. In my experience, everyone should stretch as much as one full hour per day, and they should begin with an even more intense regimen to establish good baseline flexibility. It is *amazing* how many aches and pains are due to stiff muscles in your back and legs. For the record, I've never had any RSI, and I've been using computers for an average of 6+ hours a day for twenty years. When I see someone complaining about RSI (which most people in their mid-thirties eventually do in my office), I view them as equivalent to lard-ass, McDonald's eaters that complain about having back pain. Hello?! Do something about your *real* problem (being inflexible (or fat)) before you get some surgery on your hand.

    1. Re:Do you exercise? by Troed · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, I'm fit, and I do/have done both sports, athletics and weight lifting. I don't touch McDonalds nor Coca Cola ..

    2. Re:Do you exercise? by jmichaelg · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Gee, your post sounds like how I used to sound and your profile certainly explains why I got RSI. I only was running 3 miles every other day and lifting weights. I had been coding for 25 years with nary a problem so I figured the RSI crowd was a bunch of wankers. Until one period where I typed straight for 14 hours/day for 3 weeks. That particular type of work with no breaks while the compiler did its thing or I stared at a screen trying to understand where the bug was lurking led me directly to RSI. The running and weight work were for naught when compared to not holding my wrists properly while I typed.

      Yeah, you sound just like I used to sound till I experienced RSI first hand. Funny how experience will change your viewpoint.

  35. Try a different window manager by cyber_rigger · · Score: 2, Funny

    I find that double clicks and having to go down to the lower left corner to start a program can be hard on your "mouse" wrist. I use the old "olvwm" and find it to be the most ergonomic for me. The worst one ever was Windows 3.1.

  36. To avoid problems.... by ajs · · Score: 2
    Using a computer is not a significant risk. I think we all knew this. What *is* a significant risk is
    • Typing more than 10 hours per day without significant breaks every 1-2 hours.
    • Typing very repetitive, and/or difficult sequences for hours at a time (think Ctrl-Meta-Backspace-LeftElbow-Delete... in some applications).
    • pressure on wrists while typing (if you rest your wrists on the desk while typing, you need to break that habit!)
    From my own personal experience, here's what you need to do if you start to get warning signs (e.g. tingling wrists, fingers / pain in the elbow / numbness)
    • Take a break. Really, it helps a lot. And if you have a foozeball, air hockey or ping pong table THAT IS NOT A BREAK (do it, just don't count it as a break). Breaks should last 10-15 minutes and you should try to relax your wrists and arms.
    • Watch your posture. This really is key. There are many nerve-related problems that start with hunched shoulders especially. If you experience pain, try taking a break and rotating your shoulders forward and then back, slowly about 5 times each while hanging your arms at your side.
    I really hope this helps. Good luck to all you over-achieving hackers who make OSS possible! ;-)
  37. Proper Typing = More Pain? by John_Booty · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have this theory, totally unsupported by any study and supported only by my own personal experiences, that proper typing is one of the big causes of carpal tunnel / repetitive stress injuries.

    Think about it- "proper" typing is based around the concept of minimizing your hand/wrist/arm motion. With a limited range of movement, you're doing the same little movements over and over again.

    Myself, I'm a pretty fast typist, but I use sort of a modified hunt-and-peck method. I use about three fingers on each hand and I can basically hunt-and-peck AND touch type. Scary. But anyway, my hands are constantly roaming all over the keyboard like a pianist, almost... I actually feel like this really PREVENTS stress injuries, since I've got a wide range of motion going on.

    This is in addition to other, proper ergonomic measures such as arm rests on the chair, wrist rest in fron of the keyboard, etc... of course.

    --

    OtakuBooty.com: Smart, funny, sexy nerds.
  38. Its NOT using computers that causes problems by Cowboy+Bunny · · Score: 2, Funny

    I work on a computer at least 10 hours a day almost every day and I've never had problems except one time I went on a two-week Vacation without a computer. Within a week my wrists started hurting. A couple days after returning home and using my computer I was fine.

  39. Flawed Study? by WC+as+Kato · · Score: 5, Insightful

    THE FINDING was based on a survey of nearly 7,000 workers... Computer use âoedoes not pose a severe occupational hazard for developing (the) symptoms,â the authors concluded.

    The article doesn't state what was on the survey but I have a suspicion that there is no distinction between a computer user and a person that is mainly a typists. I've been a programmer for many years and although I would be considered a heavy computer user, I would not be a heavy keyboard user. I type parts of the program, think, type some more, take a break, etc. I'm not like a key data entry person. That person would type non-stop for hours. I say that either the study is flawed and/or the article is too short on details.

    --
    --- I'm Green Hornet's sidekick not Inspector Clouseau's!
  40. Biggest contributer to my CT: the Mac "puck" by docbrown42 · · Score: 2, Informative

    That damned little puck-mouse that came with the Mac G3s. I used one for almost 2 years, and because it didn't support my palm correctly, it screwed up my wrist. I know that shortly after they came out, you could buy a cover that gave wrist support, but my previous employer wouldn't buy one, so my wrist has problems.

    Of course, now I use trackballs almost exclusively, so it doesn't matter as much. Optical trackballs are SO nice!

    --
    Ed Wedig
    Graphic design services
    docbrown.net
  41. Lazy bastard by sleepingsquirrel · · Score: 3, Funny

    6+ hours a day? I probably wouldn't have any problems if I only worked 6 hours a day. Why don't you try putting in 10 hours of mouse intensive CAD/schematic entry, and then I'll be more inclined to listen to you talk out your lazy ass.

  42. No brainer - its not what you type on, its how by Qzukk · · Score: 2, Informative

    Its not computer use specifically thats the problem, its improper posture and position. This has been known since shortly after the problem was recognized.

    I've used computers since I got my commodore 64 a little more than 15 years ago. Never had a problem, until this year.

    This year, I sliced open one of my fingers bad. The bandage I was wearing changed my typing position, and within the 12 or so days I had the bandages on, my wrists started hurting and my fingers tingled. The bandage and wrist pain is gone now, but my fingers still do tingle on occasion.

    --
    If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
  43. Speaking from Personal Experience by barryfandango · · Score: 4, Informative

    My girlfriend is a registered massage therapist and often fixes me. I can tell you that as a user who is mousing/typing eight hours a day, my forearms (especially the mousing right arm) are not healthy. Instead of the supple, flexible muscle that is supposed to be there, when my gf works on it it's like just under the skin there are lumps of chewing gum with crunchy pieces in them.

    Thanks to her help i'm getting better, however, and can offer this advice:

    - find the working position that is optimal for muscle relaxation. I have two desks put together in an "L" shape with an armless chair, so i can rest my elbows up at the level of the keyboard. What kills your muscles is having them flexed (even gently) for a long period of time.

    - stretch every 30-60 minutes. I do these three forearm stretches and find them very effective:

    1. Hold your arm straight out. Bend your hand forward at the wrist, pulling it with your other hand until you feel a gentle stretch. Hold it for at least 30 seconds (it takes at least this long for muscle fibers to get the hint and release.

    2. do the same thing bending your hand backwards.

    3. this one is more complicated but is really the money stretch: hold your arm straight out in front of you, make a fist with your hand and hold it tight. Rotate your arm to that the thumb-side of your fist is facing outward. Now grab the fist with your other hand and pull it down and outwards, simultaneously bending the wrist and rotating the arm further. If done properly you should feel a nice stretch all through your forearm. Be gentle: it's more important to hold it longer than to push it harder.

    If you're a Canadian living in Ontario or BC, you can go see a Registered Massage Therapist - they do wonders, and can give you advice on stretching and posture. Also Active Release Therapy (or ART,) which is provided by certain RMT's and Chiropractors, is pure gold for more serious problems. I don't know what regulatory bodies exist in the states, but i know that in Canada's unregulated provinces (everywhere but BC and Ontario) a lot of massage workers are either foofie-lala new age aromatherapy types or borderline sex industry workers, as opposed to genuine health care providers - so be careful.

    --
    In all matters of opinion, our adversaries are insane. -Oscar Wilde
  44. Don't forget shoulder & neck posture by dwvanstone · · Score: 3, Informative
    I've lived through an unfortunate bout of tendonitis. I was still experiencing tingling symptoms and arm pains and popping my anti-inflammatories after 8 months when I finally found a physical therapist who successfully pinpointed that I have very tight muscles in my neck (scalenes) and chest (pec minor) that are impinging on my circulation & nerves in my arms. When he works those muscles, I get referred tingles & pain in my arms.

    Through some Alexander technique and structural integration work (i.e., rolfing), I'm finally better.

    Whereas my regular doctor blamed computer usage and recommended I take off a few months from work, my PT believes this my symptoms were caused by poor posture over a lifetime - shoulders drooping forward, neck dropping forward. I believe the PT more than my doctor. (I have since changed doctors.)

  45. if you do it right by oogoody · · Score: 4, Insightful

    From reading the posts it sounds like if you
    use the right keyboard, the right pressure,
    take breaks, have the right posture, etc then you'll be ok.

    All those preconditions sounds like there's a
    lot of risk to me. Rock climbing is safe if
    you do X, Y, Z. But if you don't, you are
    screwed.

  46. Well, I don't agree. by Reality_X · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, I'm not sure, but my 9 months of CTS might contradict this finding.

    Let me just start off by saying that you wouldn't want to wish CTS on your worst enemy. It's not a pleasant experience.

    That out of the way, I can say, without a doubt, that typing was the cause of my CTS.

    I was hacking up an Ericsson PABX controller for many many hours for many many days. I wasn't taking breaks, I wasn't stretching, and I was using a mouse and a normal keyboard.

    At first my hands went numb on a Friday. I thought it was strange, but my wrists were fine and feeling was restored after the weekend.

    About 3 weeks later, I suddenly got this huge amount of pain in my right wrist. The next day my whole right hand was paralised, and I took 2 weeks off work.

    I returned to work after having trained Dragon NaturallySpeaking to program C with Emacs. After about a week, my voice was gone, and my throat hurt like hell. So I gave up on that.

    I got an MS Natural Keyboard. It helped. I got a trackball and used my left hand instead of my right hand. That helped.

    I also discovered an amazing program called Workrave that forced me to take breaks. I highly recommend that people use this program. Prevention is a good thing.

    So anyway, it's been 9 months. I've been to physiotherapists, chiropractors, hand therapists, hand surgeons, etc. None have really fixed the problem. But it's "managable" now.

    Anyway, I'm probably looking at some form of surgery in the next few months as I seem to be stuck in a "rut", having good wrist days and bad wrist days.

    The moral of my story: if you're typing a lot, and you're not taking breaks, then you're in for an aweful experience. Do some stretches and stuff as well. Seems to help. CTS isn't fun. Very depressing at times.

    Oh yeah, I'm 20. I've been programming for maybe 6 years. So you don't necessarily have to be old to get a form of RSI.

    Oh, another good resource is the Typing Injury FAQ.

  47. If you have no other guide... by Firestorm_Rising · · Score: 2, Interesting
    ...Microsoft does. Install the IntelliType Keyboard software and in your Start menu there will be a "Keyboard Healthy Computing Guide", which has some good guidelines.

    "To minimize reaching and to promote comfortable shoulder and arm postures, consider the following:

    Place your keyboard and mouse or trackball at the same height; these should be at about elbow level. Your upper arms should fall relaxed at your sides. When typing, center your keyboard in front of you with your mouse or trackball located close to it. Place frequently used items comfortably within arm's reach.

    To promote proper wrist and finger postures, consider the following:

    Keep your wrists straight while typing and while using a mouse or trackball. Avoid bending your wrists up, down, or to the sides. Use the keyboard legs if they help you maintain a comfortable and straight wrist position. Type with your hands and wrists floating above the keyboard, so that you can use your whole arm to reach for distant keys instead of stretching your fingers."

    Microsoft doesn't care. But they have information, and it's in their interest to keep you at your computer as much as possible.

  48. Sounds like poor experimental design and analysis by useruser · · Score: 2, Informative

    5% risk, huh? Wow, that sure is small! Oh wait, they don't cite the baseline incidence, so who knows if its all that small. 5% could be a 300% greater risk for all we know.

    No signifiant relationship between more than 20 hours of use of a keyboard? Great news, for me: I work 60 hours a week with a keyboard! Oh wait, they neglected to analyze the subset of individuals like me. Talk about a low powered measure and analysis. Did they even look at the distribution? I bet there's a slight skew.

    Well I'm glad the numbness in my palm isn't caused by my excessive computer use. Then what the hell is causing it? I sit on my butt all day and sleep on my back all night! What else could it be?

    Seriously, until every scientist on Earth is forced to pass a course on psychometrics, this kind of research gets us nowhere. Statistics is a garbage in, garbage out practice.

  49. Dude, you are wrong by Timwit · · Score: 2, Informative

    You conclude that because your breaks give you time to recover, avoiding RSI should be a matter of common sense for everyone--not so fast pal. Sometimes conditions can change and what was once adequate rest is no longer adequate. When conditions change quickly you have no previous experience to draw upon, and you can do damage even while behaving prudently.

    My RSI (a tendinitis, not carpal tunnel) hit me out of the blue when I was 26, and I've never been the same since. Perhaps an infection rendered my tendon sheaths fragile for a few days, or for some reason my collagen production decreased temporarily. But whatever the cause, I was past the point of no return in no time flat. The change was so abrupt that it may not have been possible to avoid at all.

  50. Obesity and inactivity? by irritating+environme · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It could have just been the awareness level, but Repetitive Stress Injuries seemed to have arisen with increased obesity in america, which seems to correspond with a lack of activity.

    But then again, the typewriter has been around longer than the computer, and there used to be warehouses full of typists that did the jobs that computers automate these days. But RSI only seemed to rise in the computer age, which seems to correspond with the american obesity age.

    --


    Hey, I'm just your average shit and piss factory.
  51. What about FPS games? by b0neman · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I used to be a pretty hard core Quake, QuakeII, QuakeIII, Blood, etc gamer. I'd play with my co-workers (always during non-working hours...;) until my hands throbbed. Then I went home and had dinner. Then I'd wait for maybe an hour or two and then BAM! hit the gamespy servers for another go at it until 2:00am or when my face hit the keyboard. Now the thought of doing that sends chills up my pained arms, shoulders and neck.