Massive WWDC Rumor Roundup

An anonymous reader writes "MacRumors.com posted a massive rumor roundup of all the major rumors surrounding Apple's World Wide Developer's Conference which starts next week. There's been talk of 970 PowerMacs, PowerBooks and Panther... seems like the biggest uncertainty is whether or not 970 PowerMacs will ship or not."

Comments

mmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

frosty ,fuk u mac fags

Slow news day

[Anonymous Coward]

Slow news day obviously.

Re:Slow news day

[sokkelih]

*TOOT!* Wrong Slow rumor day, that is.

slobber slobber drool drool??

[Anonymous Coward]

Michael, it sounds like you want to gave Steve Jobs a nice knob polishing. And they say Mac fans are real zealots, I didn't know they were groupies too.

Re:slobber slobber drool drool??

[larry bagina]

Usually that's pudge's job. They're probably having a catfight right now.

WWDC?

[Azghoul]

Man, tough morning, first I'm thinking something about WMDs, then I'm thinking some kind of zany religious shit (What Would... DC? Huh?).

Then I realize it's Mac-related, and so it is kind of zany religious shit (as if us linux-ites are drinking any less kool-aid).

Re:WWDC?

[Surak]

Heh. My initial thought was: "Did Wil Wheaton change his domain to wilwheaton-dot-com?" ;)

Re:WWDC?

[Azghoul]

At least you came up with something for the "DC"... I drew a blank. :)

Re:WWDC?

[Anonymous Coward]

(as if us linux-ites are drinking any less kool-aid).

Correction: We're drinking Hatorade.

Re:WWDC?

[kurosawdust]

Then I realize it's Mac-related, and so it is kind of zany religious shit (as if us linux-ites are drinking any less kool-aid).

I hear ya. I took the brown acid and when I came down I had a blue computer.

Re:WWDC?

[ModernCelt]

I thought Apple was snapping up DC-101 for iTunes...

Re:WWDC?

[Azghoul]

hahahahahaaha

Well the 'overrated' mods I can maybe understand, but the 'redundant'? Mine was the third post. LOL

Oh well, win some, lose some.

Re:WWDC?

[andrewski]

Has anyone done any temperature testing while running FreeBSD? I know Linux runs cooler than DOS, but have never seen a mention of FreeBSD. It seems to run really hot.

A. No, but we have done numerous taste tests on blindfolded volunteers who have also had 250 micrograms of LSD-25 administered beforehand. 35% of the volunteers said that FreeBSD tasted sort of orange, whereas Linux tasted like purple haze. Neither group mentioned any significant variances in temperature. We eventually had to throw the results of this survey out entirely anyway when we found that too many volunteers were wandering out of the room during the tests, thus skewing the results. We think most of the volunteers are at Apple now, working on their new "scratch and sniff'' GUI. It is a funny old business we are in!

So..

[dr ttol]

Wow, seems like Apple wants to top IBM's 558 blade servers with 970 PowerMacs...

to be or not to be

[Chatz]

If they don't ship the 970-based power macs they are dead, the disapointment will destroy them after all the rumors. Since they haven't dispelled the rumors...

Re:to be or not to be

[Alan Partridge]

they HAVE threatened legal action on quite a few rumour sites recently - Think Secret's still got 2 pulled stories on it's front page.

Re:to be or not to be

[Anonymous Coward]

Either that, or Think Secret told everyone that Apple threatened legal action to drive up hits and make them seem more legitimate.

Re:to be or not to be

[JonathanBoyd]

I can't believe you were modded up for that. Apple can quite happily continue for several years taking losses, given the amount of money they have. In fact, they're a profitable company, so that isn't an issue. Their consumer and portable lines are doing well, as is the music related stuff. Talk of Apple disappearing is ridiculous. People will be disappointed, yes, but they're going to ship the 970s some time this year and most people who wantone will wait a few more months if necessary.

Re:to be or not to be

[squiggleslash]

Those stories were about the iChat videoconferencing thing though weren't they? (Think Secret didn't change the URL names or s - one of the URLs was http://www.thinksecret.com/news/videoconf.html)

Now, that leads to a scary possibility. There are no new 970s. Panther's just an incremental update. The new 15" PowerBook replacement is a 15.4" PowerBook with the same-old G4 as always. But Apple, in their infinite wisdom, has decided that a webcam is the "next big thing" and are convinced that Jobs demonstrating a $400 webcam with an in-built 10G HD will suitably wow the entire world.

It might happen. And, given the success of the iPod, which is "only an MP3 player", they may even be right about the "iCam"... ;-) It'll suck to be a Mac user though after that...

Re:to be or not to be

[Alan Partridge]

I think they threatened on AppleInsider's Powermac G5 write-up, too.

Re:to be or not to be

[IamTheRealMike]

I can't believe you were modded up for that

I can't believe (well actually I can) he got modded down! It's a very real possibility. The whole "Apple will ship 970 based machines RSN" thing appears to be the product of rumour and speculation. Nothing interesting happening is certainly possible, and it's worth having somebody point that out. But it tells Mac users things they don't want to hear. Too bad.

Apple can quite happily continue for several years taking losses, given the amount of money they have.

You think their shareholders would like that? You think they'd just sit back and say, "well they aren't making any profit, but that's OK cos they have a cash pile to burn through"? I don't think they would.

In fact, they're a profitable company, so that isn't an issue.

Depends how you define profitable. As pointed out elsewhere, their cash pile has declined by over a billion dollars, despite the company being "profitable".

they're going to ship the 970s some time this year

Is that actually confirmed? By Apple? Or is it just people assuming that they must do, it's so obvious? Well I'm not saying they won't, but putting rumour as fact is not good.

Oh but of course like the poor poster who started this thread I have questioned the strength of Apple, which is clearly flamebait. Or overrated of course. Don't forget moderators, if you use overrated, you don't have to get metamoderated! ;-)

Re:to be or not to be

[JonathanBoyd]

I can't believe (well actually I can) he got modded down! It's a very real possibility. The whole "Apple will ship 970 based machines RSN" thing appears to be the product of rumour and speculation. Nothing interesting happening is certainly possible, and it's worth having somebody point that out. But it tells Mac users things they don't want to hear. Too bad.

He didn't say 'if nothing interesting happens, they're dead,' but rather 'if there are no 970's, they're dead' which is rubbish because Apple makes more than just professional Macs, they've plenty of cash and there can be interesting things happening aside from the 970.

You think their shareholders would like that? You think they'd just sit back and say, "well they aren't making any profit, but that's OK cos they have a cash pile to burn through"? I don't think they would.

They wouldn't think it's okay, but Apple survived the Amelio era, haemorrhaging billions, yet still being alive. They're considerably healthier now than they were then.

Depends how you define profitable. As pointed out elsewhere, their cash pile has declined by over a billion dollars, despite the company being "profitable".

A define profitable as them saying in their quarterly financial statements that they're making a profit.

Is that actually confirmed? By Apple? Or is it just people assuming that they must do, it's so obvious? Well I'm not saying they won't, but putting rumour as fact is not good.

The Velocity Engine is in the 970 so it's pretty clear that Apple is going to be using it and we know that if IBM hasn't already started volume production of the 970 but now, they will before the end of the year. If they didn't and Apple didn't have another good chip to switch to, then there would likely be sufficient bad publicity and loss of faith from professionals to cause them serious problems, but the WWDC is not the turning point.

Oh but of course like the poor poster who started this thread I have questioned the strength of Apple, which is clearly flamebait. Or overrated of course. Don't forget moderators, if you use overrated, you don't have to get metamoderated! ;-)

When did I say questioning Apple was flamebait? I think he was being over-dramatic and got modded up for it, but I wouldn't say it was flame bait and neither is your post. I think your point about profitability is valid for instance. Just because some people are zealots doesn't mean all are.

Re:to be or not to be

[Anonymous Coward]

The only way Apple can justify the long delay in revving the 15-inch Powerbook is something extra-ordinary. This is in light of how many people have wanted a 15", but with the capabilities of the 12" or 17" model, and so have waited. And waited. And waited.

A simple 15.4" with the same abilites as the 12 or 17 just ain't gonna cut it. Apple had better be releasing it with 970's. And if/when they do (if/when it's soon), they will make a killing with their usual crowd.

The rewards are too great and penalties too high not to. Apple needs a PPC 970 Powerbook. Plus, won't this be the industry's first 64-bit portable computer?

The progeny of Power4. The power of 64.

Re:to be or not to be

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean that to be a M.A.C. user, you have to suck balls.

Face it, whatever actual new products they announce will not ship for 4 months at least (17" PB delay ring a bell?).

But Jobs doesn't have to worry - all the slurping fanboi's will buy a couple more 100 dollar .1 patches to OSX before he has to actually roll out hardware that is not 1/3 the speed of comparible wintel trash. My bet is you might see 1.4 Ghz 970 laptops by Q3 04 if they are lucky. And by then, PC laptops will be running what - 3Ghz on the low end systems. Sucks to be you, M.A.C. fanboi.

Re:to be or not to be

[Anonymous Coward]

The only way Apple can justify the long delay in revving the 15-inch Powerbook is something extra-ordinary.

Extraordinary like "we're still getting rid of inventory on the TiBook?"

A simple 15.4" with the same abilites as the 12 or 17 just ain't gonna cut it.

Of course it will. It will sell like hotcakes. The 12" is too small (for some applications) and the 17" is too big. All that's needed is a "medium" option to go with the small and the XL.

Apple had better be releasing it with 970's.

Or what? Slashdotters will be on the Internet within moments registering their disgust throughout the world?

Re:to be or not to be

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a very real possibility.

Relax. It's not. The people who buy Macs are generally not the same people who follow the rumor mill.

You think their shareholders would like that?

It's kind of a moot point, because something like the last 18 of 20 quarters have been profitable for Apple. (Too lazy to look up the numbers now; my 10-K reports are filed in the basement.)

Depends how you define profitable. As pointed out elsewhere, their cash pile has declined by over a billion dollars, despite the company being "profitable".

Profitable means they're making more money than they're spending. (You do know the meaning of the word, right?) Just sitting on cash isn't a good thing for a company to do, and getting rid of excess cash isn't necessarily a bad thing for a company to do. All that counts at the end of the quarter is the balance sheet. Did we make more than we spent? Yes? The let's have a party.

Oh but of course like the poor poster who started this thread I have questioned the strength of Apple, which is clearly flamebait. Or overrated of course.

Actually, your post is overrated, simply because you got so many things so terribly wrong.

Re:to be or not to be

[The Infamous Grimace]

"...The Velocity Engine is in the 970 so it's pretty clear that Apple is going to be using it..."

What does this prove? IBM has stated that they are going to use the 970 in their own Linux systems, and AltiVec support for linux exists and has been implemented.

In addition, Steve Jobs apparently is satisfied with the G4 roadmap.

We'll know for sure in a week. Well, maybe the night before if we're lucky.

(tig)
"We do not inherit the land from our ancestors"
"We borrow it from our children"

Re:to be or not to be

[bnenning]

Nothing interesting happening is certainly possible

Yes, and the Earth being destroyed tomorrow to make way for a hyperspace bypass is also possible. But look at the evidence: WWDC was moved back a month for no adequately explained reason, the G4's are apparently in short supply, Apple is hyping WWDC and showing the keynote in their stores, and Steve Jobs made unusally pointed comments about Motorola a few months ago. None of this is conclusive, but it implies a very strong probability that we'll see the 970 a week from today.

As pointed out elsewhere, their cash pile has declined by over a billion dollars, despite the company being "profitable".

Um, because they've been buying lots of companies?

Is that actually confirmed? By Apple?

Of course not. But IBM has said they'll be shipping their own 970 systems this year. Can you construct a plausible scenario where Apple doesn't? It may be a rumor, but it's a rumor backed by overwhelming circumstantial evidence.

Re:to be or not to be

[JonathanBoyd]

IBM has stated that they are going to use the 970 in their own Linux systems, and AltiVec support for linux exists and has been implemented.

Your Redhat link was a press release saying that they were going to start work on it last year. You haven't provided proof that it actualy has been implemented or that anyone is using it IBM has been quite happy without it so far, the Power4 didn't have it and theres no reaosn to suppose that they would have tacked it on (apparently as an after-thought) unless it was at the request of someone who already has a use for it - Apple.

In addition, Steve Jobs apparently is satisfied with the G4 roadmap.

No, he was satisfied with it last year. That doesn't mean he still is.

Re:to be or not to be

[andrewski]

M.A.C. means Media Access Control. So, to have your computer on an Ethernet, you need a MAC. Are you saying that every person who has ethernet sucks balls?

You are an ignorant little smegma pile. Mac isn't an acronym, it's short for Macintosh.

i.R.Baboon

[jabbadabbadoo]

iThis and iThat... When will we see i.R.Baboon? on a Mac? (i.e. something like an Encarta competitor)

Re:i.R.Baboon

[mkldev]

Well, I always said they should have called iChat iM-Weasel, but they didn't seem to think that was such a good idea.

Oh well. :-p

Nonsense appearing as news

[Anonymous Coward]

Pffffff, rumors about rumors. Come on, we've heard this all before. Apple produces nice stuff, but that cult thing that is going on here at /. is ridiculous. Don't you have anything useful to do? ... oh ... discussing over and over what apple might do is useful?

Re:Nonsense appearing as news

[toddhisattva]

Kremlinologists need something to do since the fall of the USSR. So chill out for a while and see who's right about what.

PowerMacs wont ship

[interdigitate]

i think the biggest doubt is weather the 15inch powerbooks will ship and not the powermacs. The rumors on the 15inch powerbook are pointing in different directions with some people saying they are boxed and ready to be shipped while other people are saying they just went into production...

Re:PowerMacs wont ship

[iJed]

Another question about the PowerBooks is what CPU will they have? It could either be a G4 or some version of the PPC 970 (as reported by some rumor sites). In my opinion the PowerBooks will use a G4 class CPU since the current 970 probably lacks energy saving features.

Re:PowerMacs wont ship

[Anonymous Coward]

read the specs. it has lower power than the CURRENT g4s.

Re:PowerMacs wont ship

[Anonymous Coward]

Updated 15" PowerBooks WILL ship.

The question is with what processor.

Re:PowerMacs wont ship

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm betting on them having 6502s. What do you think?

Re:PowerMacs wont ship

[Anonymous Coward]

Z80A?

Re:PowerMacs wont ship

[PurpleRabbit]

P4?

Re:PowerMacs wont ship

[andrewski]

There isn't any difference between the desktop G4 and the mobile G4. At all. They are the same chip.

Try that with your Pentium 4. Oh wait, they did, and then called it 'SpeedStep.' In other words, the Pentium Steps your Speed DOWN when on battery, making it mHz to mHz slower than a G4 laptop.

Re:PowerMacs wont ship

[Surlyboi]

Hell with that. 68040s baby, all the way.

Who gives a rat's ass?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey SlashDot losers, hop on the clue bus! Nobody gives a shit.

Is this Apple's business model?

[jkrise]

1. Spread rumors.
2. Get mentioned at Slashdot.
3. Everyone jeers and boos.
4. ???
5. Loss :-(

Why should we read about rumors from a company that 98% of the nice world (except the us) doesn't think much about?

Rumors from Microsoft are a different matter. Billyboy resigns and takes up Buddhism? We're all ears. MS to bundle SCOde into LongHorn? You don't say!

Apple rumors aren't tasty.

Re:Is this Apple's business model?

[tbone1]

1. Spread rumors.
2. Get mentioned at Slashdot.
3. Everyone jeers and boos.
4. ???
5. Loss :-(

Loss? Apple has been posting underwhelming but definite profits (almost) without fail for every quarter in the last three years. Name five other companies that have done that. On second thought, given the economic landscape, those profits are not really underwhelming. Still, it was a useful post. Thank you for attempting to add to the Apple Death Knell Counter. Given the likes of John Dvorak as your potential company on that list, your parents must be very proud.

The simple truth is that Apple matters. There are things they innovate (like Quicktime, the Newton, and Firewire, etc etc etc) that are ahead of their time. They also can take existing markets and make something far and away better than what is there (iPod being the most recent example). What's more, they can take someone else's technology and make it acceptable (USB, anyone?) And they also can produce things that change the way you think about 'X'. In this latter category I'd put the GUI, Quicktime, and most recently the Music Store. I have completely changed the way I look at music, thanks to the iTMS and my iPod.

As long as they keep this up, and I don't see why they can't, they will matter and will draw people who want to speculate about the latest and greatest.

Re:Is this Apple's business model?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's reports profits, but so does amazon.com. Look at the numbers. Like available cash. It has gone down from 4.5 billion to 3.5 billion in the last 3 years, despite being "profitable" every quarter.

Once one-time charges, stock options, private jets, etc are included, they're not profitable.

Re:Is this Apple's business model?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for playing.

Are you aware that Apple is sinking their cash into research and development? Do you think those shiny new Powerbooks just materialize out of thin air? Do you think it is *cheap* to spec, prototype and mass produce two *entirely new* laptop designs (12" + 17" Powerbook)?

Yawn. IHBT, IHL, HAND.

Re:Is this Apple's business model?

[Anonymous Coward]

Loss? Apple has been posting underwhelming but definite profits (almost) without fail for every quarter in the last three years. Name five other companies that have done that.

Apple is running their operations at a loss. The only reason the final line is still positive is that there is a lot of money generating interest in their bank account, but that can only be a temporary measure.

(The reason why it must be temporary is that few investers think it is a good idea to risk their money at a return lower than normal bank interest).

Re:Is this Apple's business model?

[drunkenbatman]

Loss? Apple has been posting underwhelming but definite profits (almost) without fail for every quarter in the last three years. Name five other companies that have done that.

One thing to keep in mind is that while they've technically posted some very slim profits over the last few years, they were a little iffy. There's a reason why Apple's P/E and market cap is so low- wall street basically has said that Apple's hardware line is pretty much of no value right now.

Why? Because in many, many quarters they'd have posted a loss without the interest made from the $5billion in the bank. When interest rates dropped dramatically, Apple earned less interest on that money, and hence started bleeding.

The reason you saw the stock surge quickly from $14ish to $17ish was the music store, and the fact that it COULD be a decent source of revenue for Apple if things shake out well... but they have $5 billion in the bank, and their market cap is ~$5billion... their hardware just isn't doing that well, so Wall Street is essentially giving value only to the cash Apple has.

Current G4 Supplies Depleted

[blakespot]

Another point to add to backup Arn's MacRumors post is that current suppliers are reporting deminished supplies of PowerMac G4's with resupply dates ranging from late June to early July. Inventories sitting empty. This would not happen unless _something_ were about to take place - even if it were to be just a simple G4 speedbump.

But I believe "G4" is not the name of the processor that will be in the replacement machines...

blakespot

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted

[questamor]

But I believe "G4" is not the name of the processor that will be in the replacement machines...

Whoa. this is big. I mean really big, if that happens...

mad...

the 68040 really IS making a comeback. can't wait!

(scuse. been drinking espresso all day)

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted

[tbone1]

... current suppliers are reporting deminished supplies of PowerMac G4's with resupply dates ranging from late June to early July.

Ding! Veteran Mac watcher know that this is a sure-fire indication that tower replacements are on the way. Since Jobs returned and forced Apple to get tighter inventory controls, this sort of thing has always preceded a new model announcement.

Of course, there are no guarantees that the new models have 970s in them, but I'd be dashed surprised if they didn't.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted

[Alan Partridge]

Yeah! But would a 128-way '040 actually be much of an advance over a dual G4?

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted

[mosch]

For all that its worth, I can confirm that there is at least one tier 1 distrubitor who has large backorders of PowerMacs which would help support the theory of a revision bump, or a model replacement. I guess we'll all know the truth in a week though, so I'm trying to avoid getting my PPC970-based hopes up.

Rumours...

[brucmack]

I have to agree with others that have posted, is this really the place for a topic like this? If some /. readers want Mac rumours, I'm sure they can find them somewhere else. There was already a topic on the 970s, isn't that enough?

Re:Rumours...

[MacEnvy]

Okay, here's the issue. The reason this is important is that it will increase the relative speed of the PowerMac 2-fold. Right now, the G4 is 1.5-2 times the efficiency of the P4 at the same clock speed. The 970 (G5) will be 1.5-2 times faster than the G4 at the same clock speed. If you do the math, this means the 970 will be 2.5-4 times as fast as the P4 - as well as having dual processors when using Altivec enabled apps, including the OS. Estimated initial clocks are 1.4-1.8. An dual 1.8 (3.6 total) 970 wouls be CONSERVATIVELY equal to a 9 GHz P4. Make sense yet why this is important?

Re:Rumours...

[Nexum]

Man... I REALLY love Apple...

But boy are you gonna be disappointed in a weeks time.

-Nex

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

1) - 1.5*1.5 = 2.25, not 2.5

2) - Dual rpocessors give a 70% speed increase at best. Few programs are optimised for them so the biggest benefit you get is when running multiple programs, so going with a 30% increase would be a tad more realistc.

3) - If you really wanted to be conservative, you should be taking the 1.4, rather than the 1.8.

4) - This gives a 'conservative' estimate of 1.4*2.25*1.3 = 4 Ghz roughly (before anyone objets that this is too high, read my next paragraph).

5) - If you think that even your 'conservative' numbers hold for every situation and that speed is limited purely by the CPU speed, then you can't make any sense of what is important about the 970. The extra speed is nice. It should put us on a par with P4s again. It's new bus architecture and better ability to further scale the speed that are going to make the real difference however. It's when you realise that we can start using faster memory, aren't starving the chips of data and can speed the chip up more than once (or twice if we're really lucky) a year that you'll see why this is important. anyone remember the fiuasco with the 500 MHz G4s? How long were we stuck with them as the top end? That, in my mind, is the turning point where we gave the speed crown to Intel and Motorola gave up.

Re:Rumours...

[brucmack]

My point was that the post is about rumours, not facts. Of course it is appropriate to post this information when it is actually formal and public. Until then, we risk spreading misinformation.

Unfortunately you seemed to take my post as being "Boo Apple, Yay Intel", when that is not the case. I do not dispute any of your numbers, you just missed my point.

Re:Rumours...

[useruser]

2) - Dual rpocessors give a 70% speed increase at best. Few programs are optimised for them so the biggest benefit you get is when running multiple programs, so going with a 30% increase would be a tad more realistc.

I was under the impression that current PowerMacs supportsymmetric multiprocessing of multithreaded applications (even Java threads), which means that in iTunes, one processor can be ripping a CD while the other can be importing a library of MP3s. I wouldn't be surprised by a 70% figure for multithreaded apps.

Re:Rumours...

[Alan Partridge]

" Estimated initial clocks are 1.4-1.8. An dual 1.8 (3.6 total) 970 wouls be CONSERVATIVELY equal to a 9 GHz P4. Make sense yet why this is important?"

This is absolutely ridiculous. IBM have already published provisional SPEC scores for the PPC 970 @ 1.8Ghz, if I remember rightly, the scores were about equivalent to the top of the range Opteron. If Apple use 2x 1.8 Ghz 970s in their top machine, it'll be very fast, but hardly bettr than it's x86-64 equivalent.

Re:Rumours...

[Alan Partridge]

"Dual rpocessors give a 70% speed increase at best."

Err... nope. Dual processors give a 100% speed increase at BEST.

Re:Rumours...

[Gid1]

Better than that... in some cases, the decrease in context switching (among other things) can give a greater than 100% increase. I've seen such a thing happen before.

Re:Rumours...

[weave]

Isn't the 970 a 64-bit chip? Shouldn't those that are uptight and comparing just raw clock rates compare it to another 64-bit chip like the Itanium? What's the current clock for Itaniums (if you can get em), 1.8 Ghz?

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

At the moment, you're not realistically going to see anything better than around 70%.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

Hmm, I've never sene iTunes rip more than one track at a time. I'm pretty sure it always just rips one and uses both processors for it. And I've never seen a benchmark where speed increases are more than 70% for a DP system. Theoretically, it's possible to go higher, but it's a lot of extra programing for relatively little gain and not all tasks can be threaded.

Re:Rumours...

[Alan Partridge]

look at your dnetc scores...

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

What aobut the dnetc scores? If you have a point to make, say ti rather than asking me to go find your argument for you. Besides which, dnetc isn't hugely applicable to real world computer use.

Re:Rumours...

[damiam]

My kernel compiles go about 100% faster on both proccessors, as does 3D rendering.

Re:Rumours...

[Alan Partridge]

ti?

"Besides which, dnetc isn't hugely applicable to real world computer use."

So what? We're talking BEST CASE here, not common case - the vast majority of apps aren't multi-threaded at all.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

We're not talking best case, we're talking best real world case. And dentc isn't a real world application.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

If you're compiling a kernel, am I to assume you're not doing it under MacOS X? Becasue unless you are, the comment isn't hugely relevant.

Re:Rumours...

[damiam]

No, I'm not (I'm talking Linux on dual Athlons). However, the same principals apply - two processors can compile two files simultaneously, giving a near-100% speed increase. Unless the PPC architecture is really fucked up or the OSX scheduler really sucks, I'd think it'd be pretty similar there.

Re:Rumours...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, I've never sene iTunes rip more than one track at a time.

I've done it. The MP3 encoder is vectorized and threaded, so it pegs both CPU's and encodes at about 24X. The AAC encoder is vectorized but not threaded, so it only encodes at about 12X, but you can do two of them at once at that speed.

And I've never seen a benchmark where speed increases are more than 70% for a DP system.

Now you have. Although I wouldn't call MP3 encoding a benchmark exactly. ;-)

Also, look at things like the Maya renderer. It's twice as fast on 2 as it is on 1.

But the important part about have a two-processor machine is not that it's twice as fast. It's that it's more interactive. And you can't benchmark that. You also can't put a price on it.

Re:Rumours...

[Alan Partridge]

I'll just post this again, then:-

"Dual rpocessors give a 70% speed increase at best."

Err... nope. Dual processors give a 100% speed increase at BEST.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

That's only a theoretical maximum. The real world maximum we're seeing at the moment is around 70%.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

I've done it. The MP3 encoder is vectorized and threaded, so it pegs both CPU's and encodes at about 24X. The AAC encoder is vectorized but not threaded, so it only encodes at about 12X, but you can do two of them at once at that speed.

Cool, didn't know about that. Have to find a DP machine and try it out now :^)

Now you have. Although I wouldn't call MP3 encoding a benchmark exactly. ;-)

Also, look at things like the Maya renderer. It's twice as fast on 2 as it is on 1.

I've heard conflicting reports about that, most of them saying it's less than 100%.

But the important part about have a two-processor machine is not that it's twice as fast. It's that it's more interactive. And you can't benchmark that. You also can't put a price on it

Very true. Leaving an encoder/renderer/compiler running full blast on one CPU and still being to get a responsive system out of the other is great.

Re:Rumours...

[FireBreathingDog]

It's a hell of a lot more relevant than all those Star Wars or Lord of the Ring stories.

Just because we're interested in technology doesn't mean we all gather with the AV alum dweebs for Saturday night screenings of crappy sci-fi flicks.

Re:Rumours...

[TheCrazyFinn]

The G4's bus architecture limits it to about a 70% speed increase.

The G4's biggest bottleneck is not clockspeed, but the slow bus, which prevents it from taking advantage of newer, faster memeory architectures. one big win of the PPC970 is that Apple will be moving from the slowest CPU bus (167MHz SDR) of the major PC vendors, to the fastest (450MHz DDR, 900MHz Effective), for their top end CPU's. It's also going to force Apple to ship dual-channel capable memory for the first time since the PowerMac 9600 was retired(7/8/9500, 8/9600 and 7300 PowerMac's used interleaved memory access if the DIMM's were installed in Matched pairs, which was simply a more flexible version of current dual-channel implementations), since they'll need dual DDR400 channels to even hope to feed a 1.8GHz PPC970.

Re:Rumours...

[tenton]

dnetc exists in the real world. At least it does in mine. It's doing real world work (OGR, breaking RC-xx encryption through brute force). Now, it may not be doing typical user work (ie, word processing, running PS filters, page layout, playing Q3A, etc.), but we're talking best real world--and it gives a 100% increase.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

Okay, maybe I should have said 'best case for real world use that is applicable to a remotely significant percentage of users then', but I had assumed people would realise that was what I meant.

Re:Rumours...

[Alan Partridge]

"that is applicable to a remotely significant percentage of users then"

Well, if that's your criteria then 70% is a massive overestimation. ALMOST ALL applications that one uses day to day on a dp Mac are single threaded, any performance benefits come in the main from load balancing, and we all know how under utilised a single CPU is most of the time.

Re:Rumours...

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm no they haven't published anything.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

Encoding (vidoe and audio), Photoshop and 3-D rendering are significant tasks that utilise multiple processors and I hace seen benchmarks where they can get to around 70%.

Re:Rumours...

[Alan Partridge]

you've SEEN BENCHMARKS?

I take it that you don't actually use a Mac professionally, then...

God save us from know-nothing wannabes.

Re:Rumours...

[shawnce]

The FSB is only limiting for certain usage scenarios and in many cases the G4's backside cache can cover FSB issues.

Anyway FSB would only affect SMP if the processes you are running are stressing the FSB, which compilation wouldn't really do (it is disk bound mostly).

I would love to see a 970 with a large backside cache... but it would be overkill given its FSB support.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

you've SEEN BENCHMARKS?

Yes, I've seen benchmarks of times taken to render scenes, encode songs, etc. MacWorld labs for instance do them every once in a while. You're happy to take dnetc stats, but not real world benchmarks? In fact, given that you were asking me to look at dnetc stats, why are you so upset that I've looked at other benchmarks?

I take it that you don't actually use a Mac professionally, then...

Did I ever claim to? If you look at my bio, you'll see I'm a physics student, not a graphics designer/moive-maker/professional coder/whatever. I have an iBook/500. If not for the fact that I have to fly btween home and university every couple of months, I'd probably have an iMac, or maybe a low end PowerMac since I've already got a monitor. I certainly can't afford a high-end system with the kind of tools that would use dual processors (iTunes aside). However, I don't need to be one as I can read which allows me to gether information from other people in magazines, on web sites, etc.

God save us from know-nothing wannabes.

What is it you think I want to be? Or are you simply resorting to pointless insults? I mean, really, this isn't as big a deal as you're making it out to be.

Re:Rumours...

[Commutative Monoid]

"Alan Patridge" is a troll. You really don't need to go to great lengths to defend yourself against him.

Re:Rumours...

[Alan Partridge]

a troll? moi? surely you should be able to do better than that

something like this, you mean?

troll

As used on the Internet:

1) As a verb, the practice of trying to lure other Internet users into sending responses to carefully-designed incorrect statements or similar "bait."

troll

v.,n.  1.Â[From the Usenet group alt.folklore.urban] To utter a posting on Usenet designed to attract predictable responses or flames; or, the post itself. Derives from the phrase "trolling for newbies" which in turn comes from mainstream "trolling", a style of fishing in which one trails bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The well-constructed troll is a post that induces lots of newbies and flamers to make themselves look even more clueless than they already do, while subtly conveying to the more savvy and experienced that it is in fact a deliberate troll. If you don't fall for the joke, you get to be in on it. See also YHBT. 2. An individual who chronically trolls in sense 1; regularly posts specious arguments, flames or personal attacks to a newsgroup, discussion list, or in email for no other purpose than to annoy someone or disrupt a discussion. Trolls are recognizable by the fact that the have no real interest in learning about the topic at hand - they simply want to utter flame bait. Like the ugly creatures they are named after, they exhibit no redeeming characteristics, and as such, they are recognized as a lower form of life on the net, as in, "Oh, ignore him, he's just a troll."

Use this whenever you have a troll in a discussion group!

You swine. You vulgar little maggot. Don't you know that you are pathetic? You worthless bag of filth. As we say in Texas, I'll bet you couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel. You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you.

You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you. You are a bloody nardless newbie twit protohominid chromosomally aberrant caricature of a coprophagic cloacal parasitic pond scum and I wish you would go away.

You're a putrescence mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon.

You are a bleating fool, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts who sired you and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done.

I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at the very thought of you. You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You are a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. And did I mention you smell?

If you aren't an idiot, you made a world-class effort at simulating one. Try to edit your writing of unnecessary material before attempting to impress us with your insight. The evidence that you are a nincompoop will still be available to readers, but they will be able to access it more rapidly.

You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood. May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs.

You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid, nasty and profane. You are foul and disgusting. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Mon

Re:Rumours...

[andrewski]

2) - Dual rpocessors give a 70% speed increase at best. Few programs are optimised for them so the biggest benefit you get is when running multiple programs, so going with a 30% increase would be a tad more realistc.

Maybe you meant to say that dual processors process 70% more information per quanta. Dual processors offer a tremendus increase in apparent speed, because the user waits less for processor time.

Apple has been making more and more of the OS multithreaded, and has been using the vector unit in many new and novel ways. Given the fact that the standard timeslice on the Mac is 1ms, compared with 10ms for the Intel architecture, you already have a machine that feels faster.

Re:Rumours...

[andrewski]

For most tasks, the problem isn't the memory, it's I/O blocking. It takes some sweet hard drive setup to saturate even the 167mHz bus of the G4.

Re:Rumours...

[mccoma]

Better than that... in some cases, the decrease in context switching (among other things) can give a greater than 100% increase. I've seen such a thing happen before.

When Inmos was selling transputers, they published some results (in Byte Magazine I think) that had one of their programs running on 4 processors at 4.4x the speed of it running on 1 processor. This trend continued up till 7 processors (where it dropped below an extra 1x per processor added). It does really depend on the type of calculation you are doing.

Also, letting the OS have time on a different processor than my app is running is a good thing.

Re:Rumours...

[JonathanBoyd]

I thought was much, but decided to give hi the benefit of the doubt. The discussion is well off the front page now so he'll probably shut up now.

Re:Rumours...

[TheCrazyFinn]

Or semi-decent RAM, given the RAM is running 266DDR or 333DDR, twice the speed of the CPU interface.

I'm wondering

[parkanoid]

Whether or not slashdot editors will ever startproofreading their stories or not.

Re:I'm wondering

[djward]

So this story should have been from the dept-of-redundancy dept.?

Re:I'm wondering

[Anonymous Coward]

Any Firesign Theater reference rates "Funny"

Re:I'm wondering

[kraksmoka]

actually, the story was written inside the reality distortion field . . . . .

TROLL KARMA WHORE

[Anonymous Coward]

Surak is a KNOWN TROLL -- Mods read histroy and mod approatly. thank you

Re:TROLL KARMA WHORE

[Surak]

Surak is a KNOWN TROLL -- Mods read histroy and mod approatly. thank you

Um, yeah. Read my journal. Also, RTFAQ . Funny mods don't get you karma anymore.

Re:TROLL KARMA WHORE

[Alan Partridge]

I wouldn't worry about these TROLL ALERTERS too much. It's rather like screaming "she's a witch!" when confronted with an argument you cannot counter or a personality you cannot dominate.

Slashdot needs TROLL ALERTERS like it needs Father Randy Pudge.

Worst of all, it's an attempt to stifle the art of provocative argument, which is one of the most valuable skills in debating.

970 PowerMacs?

[jagilbertvt]

I'd think that'd be a rather low estimate on the number of PowerMacs they'll be able to ship.

Re:970 PowerMacs?

[mbourgon]

Naw, makes perfect sense... after all, Apple is dying, isn't it?

Re:970 PowerMacs?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, historically speaking, 970 of 'em would is hopeplessly optimistic for a new model!

Aside from the fact that PPC 970 based Macs aren't going to be announced until the end of the year (sorry to piss on the parade -- if you don't believe me, wait until the 23rd ;-) new models are as scarce as hens teeth (not withstanding the new genetically engineered hens with teeth that have been masquerading as Motorola engineers for the last couple years).

Alas, I digress. Expect some nice new stuff, but not 970 PowerMacs. Certainly fewer, at least at the top end.

- Anonymous Coward

Re:970 PowerMacs?

[jagilbertvt]

Yeah, I know.. but it seemed to obvious to say it.

Re:970 PowerMacs?

[neoscsi]

Do they even have that many customers left? :)

Re:970 PowerMacs?

[Anonymous Coward]

TWO

TOO

TO

The above are actually different words! Incredible, I know, but true.

Re:970 PowerMacs?

[jagilbertvt]

OMG! I used the wrong "to" above. The world is coming to an end as I write this. Get a fucking life you rabid cocksucker.

Apple's rumors are rotten...

[jkrise]

This seems to be the business model at Apple:

1. Spread rumors.
2. Get mentioned at Slashdot.
3. Everyone jeers and boos.
4. ???
5. Loss :-(

Why should we read about rumors from a company that 98% of the nice world (except the US) doesn't think much about?

Rumors from Microsoft are a different matter. Billyboy resigns and takes up Buddhism? We're all ears. MS to bundle SCOde into LongHorn? You don't say!

Apple rumors aren't tasty.

Re:Apple's rumors are rotten...

[Nexum]

"Apple rumors aren't tasty"

Don't you want to know what your Windows box is going to look like in 2009?

-Nex

Re:Apple's rumors are rotten...

[Anonymous Coward]

Rumors from Microsoft are a different matter.

So you want Microsoft rumors, well here it goes:

Current mac rumors will resurface as Microsoft rumors slightly altered as not to violate copyright laws in 5 years.

Re:Apple's rumors are rotten...

[smurf975]

Yeah and Linux in 2014

Re:Apple's rumors are rotten...

[chrissam]

Don't you want to know what your Windows box is going to look like in 2009?

Need you ask? Current Mac products *are* Windows rumors!

Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[iJed]

Its amazing how little information has got out on Mac OS X Panther (10.3). This is what Apple is claiming WWDC is about and next to no information on this new OS version has been leaked. Last year, with Jaguar (OS 10.2), there were screens on ThinkSecret and a rundown on many of the new features but with Panther there is next to nothing. All there really is is speculation on piles and even this information is highly doubtful. It seems Apple has finally blocked the rumor channels. :-(

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Zoop]

Damn, never have mod points when you need them.

While I'm open to improvements in the OS, especially in the interface consistency and configuration tools area, the biggest thing I'm looking for is essentially a host of bugfixes in OS X's networking.

The Samba support is buggy -- it can't browse as well as a Windows box, and when talking to a Unix box it doesn't understand the concept of group priviliges most of the time, requiring you to re-save documents 5 to 10 times before it will decide you have write permissions.

Networking in general has big issues--PPCP VPN support improved with 10.2 but if you have a mounted drive over Samba over a VPN and the connection drops--you're pretty much in a race to see if you can shell into your machine to issue `reboot` before some runaway process hogs the entire machine and takes down every other service. I've heard from others that this is also true of regular (non-VPN) NFS mounts as well.

So truly robust networking support for those of us in mixed environments would make my life So Much Easier You Wouldn't Believe It.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[jellomizer]

"I've heard from others that this is also true of regular (non-VPN) NFS mounts as well."

Happens to me all the time. This is what I normally do.

On my powerbook.

Mount a NFS drive at work.

At the end of the day. I close the lid (Putting the laptop to sleep)

When I get home I open the lid (auto detects I am on a new network gives me a new IP adress)

Opps my NFS drive is still mounted but their is no routing to it.

Now when any application tries to read it you get the spinny sprial ball. And it will never end. If you are lucky you may get to the terminal and do a reboot but never try to unmount the drive or even go to you /Volume/NFS directory if you do then your terminal will hang (Thus wishing you can run the same application twice). Now it is time to admit defeat so you reboot the system. But all the applications close except for the finder. Thus it will not reboot. Last step it to hold down the powerbutton until forced power off. Wait 30 seconds power it back on and run FSCK and wait. That is my only Major Issue with OS X

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Jon Abbott]

I've had the same problem myself. One recommendation I can provide is to try mounting the NFS share using the "NFS Manager" program... When using this program, you can tinker with lots of parameters that are normally more difficult to experiment with at the command line. For example, you can adjust some of the timeout parameters that should give you a little more leeway in the event of getting the spinny beach ball of near-death. It's not a complete solution by any means, but it does seem to help some. All of us with this problem should write Apple to have them fix it.

About the only other advice I can provide is to remember that you have a mount active, and then unmount before leaving work (easier said than done, of course).

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[TheHornedOne]

Yes. This happens with AFP-mounted drives too. I file a bug report with every point release of the operating system and I get the same response "We know about it". It must be a serious issue or they woulda fixed it by now. It's a real black eye on an otherwise exceedingly stable and usable (in my hands at least) operating system.

I've managed to figure out that the system is trying to re-establish communication with the drive, but it just fails to ever throw in the towel. Interestingly, when this happens, all carbon-based applications seize up, but Cocoa-based apps and all CLI applications continue to be functional.

If I could only find out what process what responsible for the hang, maybe we could kill -9 it with extreme prejudice and not have to force a reboot, but I've had no luck with that.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Graff]

If you are lucky you may get to the terminal and do a reboot but never try to unmount the drive or even go to you /Volume/NFS directory if you do then your terminal will hang (Thus wishing you can run the same application twice).

You can, the easiest way is to make a second copy of the application in a different place or with a slightly different name. You then launch the second copy. It's generally safe to do this but I wouldn't save any shared documents while both are open, like preferences.

I believe there is a way to launch a second instance of an application through the terminal without copying the app first but I've never tried it and the Terminal is your problem in the first place...

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[sebi]

About the only other advice I can provide is to remember that you have a mount active, and then unmount before leaving work (easier said than done, of course).

I learned that after a long time. But before that I usually just re-launched the finder (either from the command line or the command-option-escape menu. That would get rid of the missing network drives and not really disrupt the system too much.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Hadlock]

when talking to a Unix box it doesn't understand the concept of group priviliges most of the time, requiring you to re-save documents 5 to 10 times before it will decide you have write permissions.

aha, is that what the problem is? i thought i was just not doing it right and being inconsistent and that was the source of my problems. good to know it's not on my end.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[rawg]

NFS... I get the same problem with Linux. Forgot to unmount it, or your server goes down....you might as well hit the reset button.

I've figured out how to script the APM for Linux to unmount NFS drives if it goes to sleep, but it will not unmount if a NFS is in use... IE I've got a prompt sitting on it.

I'm thinking it's a problem with all OS's.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[repetty]

"Fish, plankton, sea greens... protein from the sea!"

Logan's Run, right?

--Richard

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Pope]

Uh, so unmount the NFS share before you close the lid. What's the problem?

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

That's an inherent UNIX problem. It's got to do with uninterruptable code in the VFS layer. Solving it is a very high priority, but it's also incredibly difficult without completely rewriting the filesystem implementation code.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

If I could only find out what process what responsible for the hang, maybe we could kill -9 it

It's not a process. It's in the kernel. Yes, we *do* know about this problem, hell we see it ourselves every damn day. But fixing it required a massive rewrite of a lot of kernel, and that's not the sort of thing you do lightly.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Jon Abbott]

Logan's Run, right?

Yep! :^)

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

Solving it is a "very high priority"?! This problem is as old as NFS itself! Nobody's ever going to fix it.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not a process. It's in the kernel. Yes, we *do* know about this problem, hell we see it ourselves every damn day. But fixing it required a massive rewrite of a lot of kernel, and that's not the sort of thing you do lightly.

Well, perhaps the obvious thing would be for you to let someone else fix it. If you just open sourced the kernel, then anyone with any programming experience would be able to just go in and fix the bug. That way, everyone's happy.

What's stopping you from open sourcing the lower levels of Mac OS X?

Er, I see. Is that my coat? I was just leaving...

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[General Sherman]

Yes, I know how frustrating this can be, it happens to me sometimes when I forget to unmount drives properly and I go to a different network.

It does eventually time out though. I've tried it before. I did it once, went to dinner and didn't touch it, and when I came back it was sitting there perfectly normal with no NFS drive mounted. w00t. Just takes a while (I was gone ~1h)

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[mark-ss]

This problem is not limited to NFS. I often connect to drives at work from home using AFS. If I forget to unmount them before closing the lid on my powerbook, and then wake my computer up later, quite often (but not always) the Finder hangs with the spinning ball. Sometimes a force quit of the Finder or even the machine itself is the only way out of it. By the way, I believe FSCK runs automatically on startup (this was added at some point with the 10.2 updates). Compare the times it takes to reboot a machine that you've forced a restart vs. the time after a normal shutdown.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Morky]

Hear, hear. They need to back up their interoperability claims, which they have not yet done. Let's keep our fingers crossed for significant improvements in this area in Panther.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[illumin8]

I've heard great things about OS X and I've been dying to switch for a while now, but then I hear this...

I'm supposed to switch from an OS that is relatively stable (Linux) and seems to handle NFS and SMB mounts just fine, and never requires a reboot, to this? And, I'm supposed to buy ~$2000 worth of hardware just to do it? And it will run half as fast as my PIV at home for 3 times the price...

No thanks... I'll wait until they figure out how to do a Unix workalike OS properly before I spend my hard-earned dollars on a pretty GUI.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

What's stopping you from open sourcing the lower levels of Mac OS X?

Nothing.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[pfooosk]

Although I don't use NFS, the same happens with AFP and Samba mounts at home. I force quit the Finder. It relaunches, and the beachball is gone... Could this work for you?

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

As I'm told, the problem is that samba has an absurdly large value for waiting to time out.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

Ehh, you know that Darwin is open source, right? If the problem is at that low of a level, theoretically someone in the community could fix it. But by and large, the vast majority of work on Darwin has been done by Apple themselves (not surprisingly, and as it should be, since they are the biggest benefactors). They aren't about to wait around for someone else to come by and decide to take a look.

Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if the problem was at some higher level of the OS, which is not open source, but required a fix at the lower levels in Darwin. In that case, you pretty much have to work at Apple to understand and fix the whole thing. :)

The interesting thing about this post's grandparent is that he says "we *do* know about this problem . . . fixing it required a massive rewrite . . ." If legit, them presumably this guy is a developer at Apple and it WAS (as in past tense) fixed for Panther. If true, then happy day! :)

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude,

sudo diskutil enableJournal /

Do it today!

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[andreMA]

I'm not sure I recall correctly, but I think you can SIGQUIT the copy of nfsiod in question to deal with this problem?

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Jobe_br]

Just an FYI, practically every OS I've been on (including Win2K/XP and Linux) - and I've been a Linux zealot for over 7 years - has issues with mounts disappearing. Same goes for Solaris, now that I think about it. So, not to rag on your post, just to say - it happens everywhere. I think its a HUGE issue and it definitely requires some attention!

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[esarjeant]

Or maybe just shutdown before going home? Why is that everyone thinks it's fashionable to leave your laptop "running" (ie: sleeping) while going from place to place.

Is it honestly that difficult to shutdown and reboot when you need it? My 1.2GHz P4 is faster at starting up than any of my laptops are at waking up.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

Ehh, you know that Darwin is open source, right?

No, my comment about getting my coat was completely irrelevent.

Geez, nobody understands sarcasm any more. It was bad enough when it was irony, but now sarcasm. Well that's just great. Terriff. Awe. Some.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[coconn06]

My iBook wakes up from sleep instantly, and hardly uses any power while sleeping. It sure is nice when I have a 4 hour trip home and want to surf the net when I get in.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[lpp]

My take on it was more like:

"we *do* know about this problem...fixing it required a massive rewrite..."which is why we didn't do it

My thoughts anyway...hopefully, I'll be proven wrong.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Pope]

Sleeping and running are two different thing.
When I sleep my desktop Mac, I don't have to quit any programs or close any documents; I resume exactly where I left off. With a laptop, it's the same thing, but even more convenient since laptops tend to have smaller/slower hard drives etc. Sleep is ideal!

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you misunderstood. I said exactly what I mean. If I had meant to say that it didn't happen, I would have said "fixing it *would have required*" a massive rewrite.

Basic reading comprehension, people.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously don't have an Apple laptop then. Wakeup from sleep takes about 2 seconds. Much better than restarting, and you get to leave all your programs running, right where you left off!

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[n.wegner]

>When I sleep my desktop Mac, I don't have to quit any programs or close any documents

It looks like you want Apple to copy Windows' "Hibernate" feature, where it swaps all ram, current state, etc. to disk and then shuts down. It should also start up a bit faster, possibly, which might make it useful on laptops as well.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[awtbfb]

I close the lid (Putting the laptop to sleep)

You need SleepWatcher and a dismount script.

You could even have a wakeup script that automounts the appropriate newtork drives when you open the lid.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Anonymous Coward]

Why the fuck would you want that, when sleep does the same thing, but much faster? Unless you won't have access to a power source for an extended period of time, there's absolutely no need. Mac laptops can sleep for a couple of weeks without running out of battery.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[andrewski]

You could always have cron unmount your NFS drive at like 4:55 or whatever, assuming you are on the clock. Alternatively, you could look at /Developer/Documentation/Carbon/utilities/PowerMan ager/Power_Manager/Power_Manager_Reference/Enumera tions/sleepQProc_Commands.html on your drive, assuming you have the dev tools installed, and have your computer unmount NFS before it sleeps.

When plugged into the wall, my Powerbook never sleeps. I just have it dim the displays and spin the drives down. The processor / board together use very little power.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[andrewski]

It's easy to give out information to a bunch of parties, under NDA, and then find out who is leaking it. You just give very slightly different information to each party. The cost is substantial, but you can plug the holes pretty fucking fast with this techinque. Governments have been using such techniques for millenia.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[squiggleslash]

The default mounting options for NFS filesystems are, in most operating systems, dumb, in my not-so-humble opinion. I'm not sure if they're set like that as a way of filtering out clueless sysadmins or what exactly.

My advice is check the mount options for NFS shares on your OS. These you pass to the mount command or put in your fstab. The key ones to look for, under Linux, are:

• bg - if you don't put this in your fstab, and your machine can't find a server when it boots, you'll find actually getting into your machine close to impossible under certain circumstances.
• soft - What happens if a server goes offline and your programs try to access a file? They'll get an error? right? Nah, unless you set "soft" as an option, your machine will sit there trying to access the server and never quit. Too bad if you have a file open on a no-longer-available NFS server, you're going to have to reboot and do it the long, slow, way where you manually dismount your other filesystems, making root "read only". If you can. Check out soft, it saves a lot of trouble.
• intr - now, the fact this one's not default makes you want to meet the person who set the defaults for NFS access and mete out strong violence upon their most precious bits. If a program's trying to do something in NFS, and it can't reach the server, you'll want to kill the process, right? I mean, that's fricking obvious. That's SO fricking obvious that a child of one, who's never used Unix, and whose first words were "Com. Mand. Dot Com" will be able to tell you that. But noooooooooooooooo you have to TELL the effing kernel SPECIFICALLY that you're going to actually want to KILL HUNG PROCESSES otherwise it will NOT BLOODY WELL LET YOU. Linus, if it was YOU that set the BRAINDEAD default to NOT "intr", then here, now, ahtside! Otherwise give the bastard who did this a slap for me, cheers. But anyway, to cut a long story short, "intr" will allow you to kill hung processes that were waiting on NFS traffic that'll never arrive. You definitely want to set this in your fstabs and mount -o options. Even if you ignore bg and soft, please, set this one.

"man nfs" in Linux will list these options and many more. At the very least use -o bg,intr unless you've got a very good reason to do otherwise.

OS X users are SOL, unfortunately, as I can't see anywhere in the OS where you can set these options except, presumably, if you want to do low-level by-pass-the-Finder stuff which creates a whole new kettle of worms. Kettle of fish. Can of worms. Something like that.

Funny thing is that with these options set, and with either common passwd files across your machines or a well set up kerberos, NFS becomes an absolute joy to use. Yes, NFS. You heard me right...

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Hes Nikke]

um... all UMA macs and newer (those with AGP) support this, however it had a bug that could erase your hard drive! Apples responce was an OS update that spesificly disables this feature!

hmmm sounds kinda like new macs having USB 2.0...disabled

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[Guy Harris]

Check out soft, it saves a lot of trouble.

...unless you have an application that doesn't handle ETIMEDOUT from a read or write call. If you do, you might only be fixing hang troubles by replacing them with data corruption troubles....

Unfortunately, "handle", at minimum, means "check for the error and let the user know it occurred", and might mean "don't throw anything away unless and until the write succeeded". (Of course, unless you make sure you never run out of disk space, that might be a good idea even on local disks....)

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[squiggleslash]

Good point. In my defense, it was only bg and intr I strongly recommended. I think 'intr' is probably the most critical one of the three, I can survive a hard connection to a missing server as long as I can kill the processes that were talking to it.

If an NFS server is merely being used as a way of accessing files over a network, which is common (ie not to access a shared database complete with filelocking, etc, not to access a remote "/opt" or "/usr/local/bin", and not to access remote home directories), soft is worth setting as it will ensure processes fail that should fail.

Re:Mac OS X Panther still a mystery

[rawg]

Try this:

mount_nfs -bis server:/directory/ /mount/place

-b = bg
-i = intr
-s = soft

Works for me.

Only mac-kooks see this as a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

" they HAVE threatened legal action on quite a few rumour sites recently"

Imagine if MS or IBM was threatening web sites because of rumors they published... people would be apoletic, and rightly so.

But when you tell this to Mac people, they say "well, this is good, because expectations will be too high and it will only hurt apple".

People, this is a fundamental free speech.

But I guess the mac-kooks are more like "whatever... apple says its for the best... whatever"

Re:Only mac-kooks see this as a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Imagine if MS or IBM was threatening web sites because of rumors they published... people would be apoletic, and rightly so.

Whether or not people would be apoplectic is not the issue. (On Slashdot, people get apoplectic over what to have for lunch.) The issue is whether or not they would be rightly so.

The answer is no. You can't just print whatever you want about a company's confidential activities and plans. A poster upthread said it: if Apple doesn't ship the fuckin moon at WWDC, they're doomed. (It's not true, of course, but it's not entirely wrong, either.) Wild rumors are incredibly harmful to a company's business, and you can't just go around hurting people with impunity.

People, this is a fundamental free speech.

It has nothing to do with free speech. Freedom of speech means that that government can't pass a law that says a person cannot express a given opinion. This has nothing to do with opinions, or for that matter with the government. It has to do with people who are publishing things they allege to be facts. If they are false, then they can't publish them. If they're true but they were obtained unlawfully, then they can't publish them. It's not about free speech at all, rights-boy.

But I guess the mac-kooks are more like "whatever... apple says its for the best... whatever"

I guess the Slashdot kooks are more like "whatever... corporations are evil so everything they do must be bad... whatever"

Re:Only mac-kooks see this as a good thing

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, the point of that went totally over your head, you poor misguided hippy. :) The Mac kooks look at ceast-and-desist orders as "Hey, they don't want us printing that, it must be true! Yay!" It's simply "confirmation" of the validity of the rumors. And there was much rejoicing. And dancing around the bonfire next to the giant painting of Steve Jobs. Followed by prayer to the Great One. Etc. :)

Another rumor

[Anonymous Coward]

Jobs will do his imitation of Ballmer's monkeyboy dance.

Re:Another rumor

[Anonymous Coward]

Give it up for meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

Re:Another rumor

[switcha]

the only upside of that would be that black turtlenecks don't show the horrendous pit sweat stains as well.

Re:Another rumor

[Alan Partridge]

Steve Jobs only sweats Tofu juice, which cannot stain a black turtleneck.

So am I!

[squibix]

They promise to... just as soon as Slashdot posters startproofreading their posts!

Re:So am I!

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the grandparent was just using some Newspeak, that's all.

Re:So am I!

[parkanoid]

I blame the new, undocumented "Make /. critics appear hypocritical" feature of slashcode.

Serial ATA

[xyote]

It better have serial ATA. If not, then by the time people start upgrading their hard drives, not only will they find the parallel ATA drives selling at a premium since they're being phased out, but they will find the drives not being made in the larger sizes they need.

Same goes for some other technologies being introduced now. Nothing worse than a system design that is obsolete before it hits the shelves.

Re:Serial ATA

[JonathanBoyd]

There is a massive existing market for parallel ATA. All the computers with parallel aren't going to disappear overnight when someone starts shipping serial. It'l be a few years before the market for parallel decreases sufficiently for your worries to be relevant.

Re:Serial ATA

[Creepy]

nah, not yet, but it should be made an option, soon.

I've bought several PC motherboards in the last year, and only the high end one for my gaming box came with serial ATA (and that board supports Parallel, as well, as most do). Once low-end manufacturers jump on the bandwagon, parallel ATA will start trickling away, but not until then. Low end usually doesn't need the performance, anyhow.

Re:Serial ATA

[Have Blue]

Also, Apple probably won't make the jump straight to SATA like they did with USB. The current speedholes G4s ship with one ATA-100 channel (or is it 133 now?) and one ATA-66 channel.

Re:Serial ATA

[IntlHarvester]

(Check dell.com, see no SATA machines shipping, concludes that PATA is alive and well for now.)

I don't think you understand Apple's hardware strategy -- if it doesn't sell machines, they'll use the most bog-standard generic commodity parts they can find. You'll never see a Mac with the sort of bleeding-edge features found on "enthusiast" x86 mobos.

Apple will switch to SATA -- about 3 months after the rest of the industry. If new machines ship this month, they will be using PATA drives. If you're very very lucky, there might be internal SATA ports.

Re:Serial ATA

[tenton]

It's still ATA-100 (faster than any drive, anyways), but it supports the larger (130GB+) hard drives

There's also the ATA-66 controller and the ATA-33 controller (for the CD/DVD drives).

Re:Serial ATA

[illumin8]

WTF? Why not just buy a Serial ATA controller if you really want it that bad. No system with a free PCI slot in it should be considered obsolete just because it doesn't have some massively parallel Serial ATA RAID controller on the motherboard.

Perhaps Apple wants to do it the right way and keep system costs down. Those that need or feel like they need Serial ATA can pay extra for it. Those that don't need or even want it can save money on the initial system price.

Re:Serial ATA

[Anonymous Coward]

ATA 133 is barely relevant for most drives today. Serial ATA is shown to be slower on the same hard drive than parallel (of course this discrepency will eventually disappear). For now, there is no reason to move on to a more expensive, less prevalent, lesser performance way to connect the hard drive to the motherboard. It will be quite a while (about 2 years min.) before Serial ATA is a necessity on any motherboard, much less Apple's.

Re:Serial ATA

[Hes Nikke]

free PCI slots are all well and good, but if you can't find an SATA card with an mac OpenFirmware compatible BIOS, your SOL, the card is uesless..

after doing some googling i have come to the conclusion that there are exactly zero serial ATA cards that work in macs.

the situation isn't much better for parallel ATA, i can count the ATA/133 controlers that work with macs on one hand, and they are all funky hacks that pretend to be SCSI controlers! (if i look at the hardware profile of my tower, i have 3 SCSI hard drives in it, thanks to my $100 controller (it feels so nice to be a mac user, i think i need to bend over a little farther though....)

My employer, Sallie Mae, tripled its stock price

[Anonymous Coward]

in the last three years. That is not a direct answer to your 'profits' question, I realize. But I believe it's worth noting, especially in the current/recent economy. See link of the astounding stock return here: Click Here hopefully that link will work for you.

Not much

[kamukwam]

...seems like the biggest uncertainty is whether or not 970 PowerMacs will ship or not.

seems to me like they don't think to sell a lot of PowerMacs, only 970. This isn't profitable anymore.

Anything on Safari 1.0?

[mccalli]

It's Safari 1.0 I'm most interested in. Any news on whether they'll include a 'block image from server' function, allow your homepage to be a group of tabs and also add proper keyboard navigation of controls (eg. drop-downs)?

I like Safari because it is quite pretty. Nevertheless, there's no ignoring the fact it currently does less than the Gecko-derived browsers so it hasn't quite done enough to become my default browser yet.

Cheers,
Ian

Re:Anything on Safari 1.0?

[Anonymous Coward]

Typical Mac Boy, style over substance.

Re:Anything on Safari 1.0?

[Drakonian]

ThinkSecret is implying Safari 1.0 is close to Golden Master, and they are quite reliable. I think they've mentioned image blocking and special tab features too.

Re:Anything on Safari 1.0?

[rawg]

If you want image blocking and an all around better browser, you should try out Omniweb 4.5. It's using the same render engine as Safari, but the GUI is way improved. It's not free, but you know the old saying, "You get what you pay for."

Re:Anything on Safari 1.0?

[mosch]

Safari is very pretty, and it's very fast... but my god does it like to explode. I'm just looking forward to the day when I don't need 3 browsers in my dock in order to use the websites required to do my job.

Re:Anything on Safari 1.0?

[Anonymous Coward]

Any news on whether they'll include a 'block image from server' function

Use Privoxy.

allow your homepage to be a group of tabs

Nope.

and also add proper keyboard navigation of controls

Yes.

Re:Anything on Safari 1.0?

[Paradise Pete]

Typical Mac Boy, style over substance.

No, we assume the substance, and appreciate the style.

Re:Anything on Safari 1.0?

[megabulk3000]

Image blocking? You want PithHelmet.

Re:Anything on Safari 1.0?

[ElGanzoLoco]

I'm running a leaked beta right now (v.0.80). You can group bookmarks in "buttons" on the adress bar, and have them all opened in tabs. Cool.

One word: beleaguered!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple will close down its operations before June 23rd of this month. This is not a rumor. WWDC is going to be a huge going away party, where Steve Jobs will reveal to everyone that he is the Architect.

Now, you might be asking yourself where I got this information from? Simple. Oracle told me. Larry Ellison led me to her, and we had a conversation on a park bench. She said I must spread the truth.

Cupertino _IS_ the Zion and Microsoft centinels are moving closer to destroying it. We must fight their evil forces with devices powered by embedded linux kernels.

- The One

Tasteless rumors...

[jkrise]

This seems to be the business model at Apple: 1. Spread rumors. 2. Get mentioned at Slashdot. 3. Everyone jeers and boos. 4. ??? 5. Loss :-( Why should we read about rumors from a company that 98% of the nice world (except the US) doesn't think much about? Rumors from Microsoft are a different matter. Billyboy resigns and takes up Buddhism? We're all ears. MS to bundle SCOde into LongHorn? You don't say! Apple rumors aren't tasty.

It's a Developer Conference

[buckhead_buddy]

In a past slashdot thread, I predicted that people would be sorely disappointed because Apple would wait to demo new iApps, unveil new prices and cases for new hardware, and keep GUI changes under wraps until they can make a bigger splash to a more consumer audience. Things may be different this year because of their falling out with the MacWorld Expo organizers and so much consumer attention has been focused on WWDC by the Mac fan sites. I won't try to predict what consumer focused changes will appear at wwdc. In the past the biggest announcements were those designed to affect developers in the biggest way, if that holds true, this is what I'd like to hear about:

I'd be happy if we saw official Apple support for Cocoa bridges other developers have created such as Camel Bones (Cocoa/Perl) and PyObjC (Cocoa/Python) as officially supported as the Java/Objective-C bridge.

It might be interesting to see the addition of an optional garbage collector added to Objective-C for newbies to use but engineered in such a way to make it optional for those Objective-C veterans who want to make their work execute more efficiently. Memory management headaches are the biggest difference between the simplicity of Cocoa and other more "popular" languages like Visual Basic (and heck, even Apple's old Hypercard).

Apple went a long way in Jaguar toward re-engineering the bowels of the user interface architecture (HIToolbox) to unify Cocoa and Carbon. I'm sure Panther will see this effort finished, but it'd be great to see a global user interface macro recording feature added now that there's one robust, well-thought and well implemented API underneath.

What would be bigger news to me than any sort of user interface bauble (like the fabled "piles") would be an announcement by Apple that it was completely updating the Mac OS X online help system. They've done a great job of trying to make it easy to get to, but it's very slow and very awkward to use. Any improvements in this area would be very welcome for users and developers.

While new Macs, new iApps, and new user interface trinkets could debut here or at any other Apple event, this is the only time of year Apple really focuses on making geeky, developer relevant announcements. I hope this WWDC doesn't disappoint in that regard.

Re:It's a Developer Conference

[hype7]

While new Macs, new iApps, and new user interface trinkets could debut here or at any other Apple event, this is the only time of year Apple really focuses on making geeky, developer relevant announcements. I hope this WWDC doesn't disappoint in that regard.

Also relevant; it seems that the Apple VP in charge of hardware is going to be headlining at the new MacWorld Expo in July.

Now, that could mean one of three things:
1. He's going to be doing an extended demo of hardware that was released at WWDC
2. He's going to announce the hardware at MW; unlikely if this is the 970s everyone's been predicting (Job's would do that), or
3. He's going to announce that the 970s demo'd at WWDC are to be released.

I choose 1.

-- james

Re:It's a Developer Conference

[AIXadmin]

The PowerPC 970 would one of the biggest announcements for Apple in recent memory. They wouldn not send a VP to do it, they would send Steve J.

Re:It's a Developer Conference

[Anonymous Coward]

It might be interesting to see the addition of an optional garbage collector added to Objective-C for newbies to use but engineered in such a way to make it optional for those Objective-C veterans who want to make their work execute more efficiently.

There is. It's called "autorelease."

it'd be great to see a global user interface macro recording feature

No, no. We had that in System 6. Nobody used it. There's zero reason to put this in.

Re:It's a Developer Conference

[lowmagnet]

Cocoa has automatic garbage collection in-built by default. It's just not perfect, so it's better (but not easier) to mark/release.

Re:It's a Developer Conference

[buckhead_buddy]

it'd be great to see a global user interface macro recording feature

No, no. We had that in System 6. Nobody used it. There's zero reason to put this in.

Think of the Mac stragglers who are still running 6.0.4 and waiting for this feature in order to upgrade! Both of them. :-)

In all seriousness, global recordability never worked in System 6 because it wasn't global. There were tons of holes and special cases that just weren't recordable or played back differently because of timing problems and so forth. Using Macro Maker on the Chooser or the Control Panel was insanely unreliable.

In OS X, they've put a lot of work into making this GUI architecture. If you have it, flaunt it. Having macro maker return as a menu-lette icon would be useful to many. Having AppleScript recordability work at the GUI level if an app doesn't implement it in its own dictionary would be a great recordability fallback.

Comparing what a HIToolbox based macro utility under OS X can do to the old System 6 MacroMaker is like comparing a Harley-Davidson to a Big Wheel.

Re:It's a Developer Conference

[90XDoubleSide]

Given that Apple released the GUI scripting hack with 10.2.3, which basically makes everything scriptable, you'd think that it wouldn't be terribly hard to make everything recordable as well. It's still not going to work in every single case, however; for example, the other day I was trying to script a carbon app that has a small tollbar of buttons with icons on them, only to find that they had named every single button " ", so a call to "click button " "" wouldn't work very well.

Re:It's a Developer Conference

[Anonymous Coward]

hehe Joswiak, what's that - a Jobs/Wozniak hybrid? :)

Re:It's a Developer Conference

[bih]

As to adding garbage collection to Objective-C, I think that is what Cocoa/Java is for, the 'newbies' as it were.

WWDC "to be announced" slots

[nozpamming]

There seem to be quite a lot of slots "to be announced" at the WWDC, especially for tuesday...

Is this normal? Could these be demonstrations of new products? Ideas, anyone?

Re:WWDC "to be announced" slots

[Rosyna]

This is extremely normal. They cover the new aspects of panther and the hardware capabilities. Sometimes they slip up and a session reveals more than it should before the keynote on monday.

Re:WWDC "to be announced" slots

[andreMA]

I don't think we can rely on Apple's past behavior at WWDC to predict what will happen this time around.

Due to a spat with IDG over moving MWNY back to Boston, Apple isn't participating in MWNY this year -- the usual forum for new hardware introductions. So I think all bets are off.

Being located near Boston, Apple annoyed me a lot with this...

more rumours

[Anonymous Coward]

I heard that amd and intel will release faster processors pretty soon.
is that news as well?

what Apple WON'T ship

[bbc22405]

There has been much made of the 15" powerbook, which is still Titanium, not Aluminum. Speculation has been that it will be updated dramatically, including outrageous predictions of the new 15" Aluminum powerbook getting a 970 processor. I guess people think it was held back from update so that it could get the 970 when it is finally updated.

People, pay attention. The 15" powerbook was held back because Jobs promised to support MacOS 9 until ... this summer. With that constraint off, it can get the new technologies that are not supported in MacOS 9 (bluetooth, airport extreme). That doesn't mean it's getting the 970.

Re:what Apple WON'T ship

[jellomizer]

Well although it doesn't mean it will be getting the 970 soon. But Normally with apples powerbook lines they normally add the same chip that is in the PowerMac. Their main selling point for the powerbooks is the fact that holds most of the functionallity of the PowerMac in Laptop size. Although the 970 PowerBooks probably wont be realeased with the first set of sales. But Late summer or even next January you will probable see the 970 PowerBooks and the iBooks will be upgraded to G4s I am not sure about the iMac though. I think Apple my keep it a G4 for a while like they kept of old iMacs G3s.

Since it's a developer's conference...

[chia_monkey]

I'd like to see a few issues addressed. Yet oddly enough, they all seem to involve Microsoft:

1) The whole Virtual PC thing. Is Apple going to talk to developers to find ways to continue to run Windows on the Mac should MS decide to kill VPC?
2) Safari/IE. MS is killing IE for the Mac. Many sites currently don't look so hot, or don't even work, on non-IE browsers. How will this be addressed? Safari "giving in" to IE-style rendering?

I do also expect some yummy hardware announcement, I just have no idea what it is. It's beyond speculation, but whatever it is, I'll be happy.

Re:Since it's a developer's conference...

[TheDredd]

The whole Virtual PC thing
I think Microsoft is going to rerelease Virtual PC as something like Virtual Windows, only allowing some flavor of Windows to run

Re:Since it's a developer's conference...

[pHDNgell]

Safari "giving in" to IE-style rendering?

My first thought on this is ``please don't do this to us,'' but in all practicality it can't be done. If you try to make your browser compatible with IE rather than the standards, then you're just promoting the use of IE non-standards. As soon as they start making technological changes (i.e. the ones that require close integration with the underlying operating system), it becomes a bigger issue than ``IE-style rendering.''

Re:Since it's a developer's conference...

[mstockman]

2) Safari/IE. MS is killing IE for the Mac. Many sites currently don't look so hot, or don't even work, on non-IE browsers. How will this be addressed? Safari "giving in" to IE-style rendering?

That's really a non-issue, because IE for Mac was never compatible with the sites you're talking about... those sites are IE for Windows specific. IE for Mac was a surprisingly standards-compliant browser, one of the first to support really good CSS1 and a good chunk of CSS2, and it never supported most of the non-standard IE for Windows stuff.

On the VirtualPC front, I do think it would be nice if Apple were to throw its open-source development weight into enhancing Bochs to make it the best emulation out there, and then integrate it into OS X so you could have double-clickable Windows apps in an emulation layer such as Classic mode, but I haven't heard anything about that one way or another.

Re:Since it's a developer's conference...

[Anonymous Coward]

"Internet Explorer" has name recognition among PC users. So many specs get written where Mac IE support is mandated, and custom CSS/JS tweaks *do* get written for Mac IE.

OHOH, "Safari" has no name recongition among PC users. It doesn't even have any name recognition among Mac users -- 90% of whom run OS9 and below, and 90% of the rest don't surt tech sites or hang out at the Apple home page.

Consequentally, there's going to be very few specs where Safari is mandated as a supported browser. On top of that, it's got a whole pile of unique rendering issues. In short -- things look poor for wide-spread Safari support for the next couple years. Keep Mac IE on your hard drive.

Re:Since it's a developer's conference...

[jbx]

1) Apple doesn't care about Virtual PC. The PowerPC 970 no longer supports little-endian mode, which VPC uses to get speed (note that no one actually knows which processor Apple will use, of course...). If Apple cared about VPC, they would do the work to make VPC run as fast under X as it used under 9. Or they would have acquired VPC when they had the chance. (According to one of Connectix's founders, Apple has turned down VPC on more than one occasion!)

2) The statistic no one mentions is that, among people running OS X, Safari is already the dominant browser. So who cares if MacIE is no longer being actively developed under X? It's a non-event. It's been 3 years now that MacIE is still 5.something and no one seemed to take much notice. And besides, Microsoft is still doing maintenance revs - in fact they did one on Monday.

Re:Since it's a developer's conference...

[Phroggy]

On the VirtualPC front, I do think it would be nice if Apple were to throw its open-source development weight into enhancing Bochs to make it the best emulation out there, and then integrate it into OS X so you could have double-clickable Windows apps in an emulation layer such as Classic mode, but I haven't heard anything about that one way or another.

This was a possible feature Apple considered for Mac OS X from the beginning, code-named RedBox (Classic and Cocoa were code-named BlueBox and YellowBox, respectively). RedBox may only have been available on Mac OS X for Intel (which of course also didn't happen), or it may have been a full x86 emulator that could run on PPC.

In any case, Apple's not going to do it now. No real reason to. If an app you need is Windows-only and no alternatives are available, you should ask the developer to port it - but those are getting more and more rare as OSX matures.

Re:My employer, Sallie Mae, tripled its stock pric

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, during the crazy housing boom that followed the dot com crash. Look for the housing market to crash shortly, thanks to massive increases in the interest rates, again thanks to the rising national debt.

OpenOffice?

[ek_adam]

While there were a few rumors of an Apple browser before Safari came out, few people expected it to be based on open source Konqueror.

I'm wondering how big a surprise a behind the scenes port of Open Office to the Mac would be.

Re:OpenOffice?

[Cyph]

I'm not sure that I understand what you mean. There already is an port of Open Office to the Mac. It runs on X11 in Mac OS X, and is available directly from the website. Do you mean a native Aqua port?

Re:OpenOffice?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm wondering how big a surprise a behind the scenes port of Open Office to the Mac would be.

Well, considering there isn't one, I'd say it would be a great surprise.

Apple does not play with GPL software. We will play with LGPL libraries, but we will not play with GPL software. Simply isn't going to happen.

(Besides... hate to break it to you, but Open Office is crap by Mac standards. If you want to see the future of productivity software on the Mac, look at Keynote, not Open Office.)

Re:OpenOffice?

[ek_adam]

Native Aqua, better font support...

Re:OpenOffice?

[Morky]

Just as they did not use Gecko as their rendering engine, they would not use OO the basis of an office suite. From what I understand, it's complete spaghetti.

Re:OpenOffice?

[bedouin]

OpenOffice I doubt, but I think at least one of the old Gobe developers now works for Apple. Gobe Productive on Mac could be interesting. The more likely scenario seems to be more apps like Keynote though.

Wow, when I was typing that I just realized "If Apple released their own Word Processor I'd probably go out and pay for it." Imagine that, liking a platform so much that I'm willing to support it with my own money. That never happened when I was running Windows :)

Re:OpenOffice?

[lpp]

If you want to see the future of productivity software on the Mac, look at Keynote, not Open Office.

Hrm, well, I don't feel too productive trying to type up this memo using Keynote. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

Re:OpenOffice?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, yeah, you are. You should be using TextEdit for that. It's a full-fledged word processor suitable for things like memos.

Re:OpenOffice?

[squiggleslash]

"If Apple released their own Word Processor I'd probably go out and pay for it."

Well, you can buy a word processor (and a spreadsheet, and mini-DTP package, etc) from Apple.

Apple would do well to publicise this little package of theirs. It's surprising how many people believe Apple doesn't sell an office suite. It's cheap too, and has a reasonable reputation.

Re:OpenOffice?

[bedouin]

Apple would do well to publicise this little package of theirs. It's surprising how many people believe Apple doesn't sell an office suite. It's cheap too, and has a reasonable reputation.

Yeah, I know about it. Appleworks isn't really ready to be a Word killer yet though, let alone office.

Re:OpenOffice?

[Hes Nikke]

It's surprising how many people believe Apple doesn't sell an office suite

AppleWorks 6 qualifies as an office suite, as much as Microsoft Works 4 qualifies as an office suite, sure it does the job, but not very well, and it's old too.

hell, TextEdit (included with Mac OS X) is almost as good as the AW WP module (and it's source code is included with the Mac OS X Developers Tools!)

Re:OpenOffice?

[vniow]

I think this thread may be of some intrest...

New Case Colors and OS X 10.3

[jellomizer]

In the situation where someone just woke up and didn't have their coffee. It seems that they are saying the new PowerMacs cases will be a matalic color as well as 10.3 using more of the brush metal theam. I can only assume that they want to OS to look more like the case itself and vise versa. Which is basicly what they have been dooing OS up to 10.2 have been on Macs that were normally White in color but now the new ones are becoming more metalic as well as the powerbooks so the New OS will look like the case thus making the brush metal theam fit with the computer.

Re:New Case Colors and OS X 10.3

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, English... do you speak it?

Network support (NFS & VPN)

[kwerle]

I've heard from others that this is also true of regular (non-VPN) NFS mounts as well.

Whatever.

At work we always use NFS mounts except for builds (our NFS server is lousy, performance-wise - see it on other unixen, too). Have no problem.

I NFS mount my home directory from my laptop through a VPN (not PPCP - VTUN (see vtun.sf.net)). I drop connection all the time and have no problem.

Maybe you should try to avoid Samba...

Uh...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do you mention the housing boom? How is that related?

Thanks.

OT: SMB browsing

[LMariachi]

I can confirm problems with non-VPN NFS mounting, but what problems have you had browsing SMB shares? I have a much easier time browsing from OS X than from XP or 2000 boxes, which sometimes see only their own workgroup, sometimes nothing, sometimes everything.

Re:OT: SMB browsing

[Zoop]

what problems have you had browsing SMB shares?

We have a share called "Corp_Functions". That's one letter too long for the browser. All the Windows boxes can see it and mount it properly. I, on the other hand, have to mount it by URL.

It's also been very inconsistent about what it will let me see, a la the problems of the XP/2K boxes you mention. It did improve vastly with 10.2.

And of course there's the issue with not being able to automount Samba shares, but that's not a browsing issue.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[blakespot]

Hey...

For just navigating thru menus and windows and general GUI stuff my 33MHz 68040-based NeXTStation Turbo Color slab feels about the same speed as my dual G4 800 Mac!

Don't knock the '040!

blakespot

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[damiam]

Yeah, and my 50Mhz 486 feels just as fast as my dual Athlon 2200+. The difference is, the 486 has butt-ugly Windows 3.1 graphics, and the Athlon has (relativly) nice WinXP graphics.

slashdot and macs

[Selecter]

Seems like many posters are unhappy with the Apple postings recently. The fact is that it's news in the computing world when Apple is going to be introducing new products, becuase those are the things you will be seeing in your windows boxes someday. Apple has a reach far beyond their own product line - witness Firewire and the Music Store. Their current line of hardware in the Pro area stinks, everyone knows that, that it would seem that they are about to make a huge leap forward in that regard. I want to read about it here on /. and I currently DO NOT own a Mac, though id the new macs rumored to be coming soon do measure up to the windows world I will be buying one - the speed gain plus a mature OS X would make me switch over to mac for everything except games, which will always be better on wintel.....and of course, we know that all these MAC=GAY flamers on /. do nothing with their computers besides play games. If they ever actually DID something with computing......... :/

Piles!

[Draoi]

I certainly hope that Apple comes up with a better name for "Piles"!

Has your OS got piles?

Re:Piles!

[Anonymous Coward]

What happens when your OS takes a dump? Do you have to go back and dig through the Piles?

Yuck!

Re:Piles!

[EaTiN cOfFeE bEaNs]

Things could be worse...Apple could call Piles "Shit"

"...Man, your OS ain't got Shit!"

Re:Piles!

[andreMA]

Now where did I leave my Preparation X?

Re:My employer, Sallie Mae, tripled its stock pric

[TheGreek]

I think you're thinking of Sallie's sister Fannie. Sallie does student loans.

Apple dead...

[Andre Breton]

Again?? Damn... That must be like the 27th time.

No, it is a tradition

[alfredo]

Part of the fun is speculating on what Jobs will pull out of his ass this time. Security is so tight at Apple, any hint of what is to be is big news.

It is a game Mac users and others enjoy. Jobs is into the joke too. Watch his presentation, it is sheer entertainment. We know to expect the unexpected, and would be disappointed if the rumor sites were right.

Even if you are not into Macs, it is worth it to watch his presentation. You will be learning from the master.

Re:No, it is a tradition

[Anonymous Coward]

Part of the fun is speculating on what Jobs will pull out of his ass this time.

If Steve Jobs pulls "piles" out of his ass onstage, I'm switching to Windows.

Re:No, it is a tradition

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't forget, it doesn't neccesarily mean anything. MANY times the rumor sites have reported that something big is up and is being well kept just to find out that it was because Apple really had nothing at all.

Nice name!

[Drakonian]

Greg Joswiak, Vice President of Hardware Product Marketing. Somehow that just seems apt that he is working at Apple.

I'd also point out that he is VP of Hardware Marketing, not Hardware. (i.e. Engineering)

Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Apple,

I am a homosexual. I bought an Apple computer because of its well earned reputation for being "the" gay computer. Since I have become an Apple owner, I have been exposed to a whole new world of gay friends. It is really a pleasure to meet and compute with other homos such as myself. I plan on using my new Apple computer as a way to entice and recruit young schoolboys into the homosexual lifestyle; it would be so helpful if you could produce more software which would appeal to young boys. Thanks in advance.

with much gayness,

Father Randy "Pudge" O'Day, S.J.

Re:Dear Apple

[TheDredd]

You must be embarrassed about you're sexuality, otherwise you wouldn't be posting as an anonymous coward

Re:Dear Apple

[repetty]

I've been using Macs since '87 and I think that letter to Apple was funny.

--Richard

Dear Father Randy O'Day

[Anonymous Coward]

Dear Father O'Day:

Thanks for your letter. Being Catholic myself, I know exactly what you're talking about! It has always been our plan here at Apple Computer Inc to revolutionize personal computing with our high-quality and highly gay products.

I'm happy to answer your letter by letting you know that YES we will be releasing an entire hLife ("homo-life") software line. You'll be able to recognize it in stores by the small stylized logo depicting a large cock entering a tight anus with an Apple logo on it. ("Suddenly it all comes together" indeed!).

Anyway, I hope you and other members of our community will join us on our mission, and purchase the exciting new hLife boxed set. Only the boxed set comes with translucent cock rings!

Sincerely,

Harry Rodman
Vice-president
Homosexual Liaison Services
Apple Computer, Inc.

Re:Dear Father Randy O'Day

[jjamezz]

What... No lube?
&& here I thought you might have been for real
The only Boxed Set we've got here is a
BOXED SET OF IDIOTS posting on /.

new slogan... how about 'Make love, not lore?'

idiotic resplies expected, not encouraged

a little mac help!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Mac fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a Mac (a 8600/300 w/64 Megs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my Pentium Pro 200 running NT 4, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this Mac, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that.

In addition, during this file transfer, Netscape will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even BBEdit Lite is straining to keep up as I type this.

I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Macs, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a Mac that has run faster than its Wintel counterpart, despite the Macs' faster chip architecture. My 486/66 with 8 megs of ram runs faster than this 300 mhz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that the Macintosh is a superior machine.

Mac addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use a Mac over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Re:a little mac help!!

[Anonymous Coward]

i tinks isa needs mare sawltsz. Yew jes siddown and mes fixen to biscuitize y'all merhp, gerhukiey.

sneep! sneep!

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[WillAdams]

I know what you mean---my 25MHz '040 NeXT Cube is still my main machine for doing TeX and PostScript work.

The really painful thing is the comments from Mac developers when they first tried out OpenStep 4.2 on decent white boxes in preparation for what was then called Rhapsody...

``windows vanish (instantly) (after clicking the close box)''

``feels rock solid''

``man I hope the real thing performs this snappily''

There was recently a post to comp.sys.next.advocacy from a guy who got OpenStep running on a something.something GHz box w/ 1GB or DDR or somesuch RAM.... may have to think 'bout setting up something like that myself, thoough I'd really miss the cool old-style NeXT keyboard....

William
i

about the 970

[Enrico Pulatzo]

If for some reason Apple doesn't have a 970 machine ready or to be announced at WWDC, all hell is gonna break loose. The underground hype is ridiculous at this point. Every 4th day I see a new story posted somewhere about how Apple must be using the 970 chip. It's all vaporware until they show us a box. People are so paranoid to purchase new machines from Apple for fear of being left out in the cold. Not that Apple actively discourages this though, but at this stage in the game, what can they possibly do to stop the 970 expectation short of actually producing a box?

Re:about the 970

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. In a very sick and twisted way, I would find it quite hilarious if Apple didn't mention a single peep about the 970 at the whole conference. As a fan of Apple, though, I certainly do not want this!

I remember last year before MWNY, the hype of finally a G5 (Motorola) PowerMac was getting pretty intense. After all, people had been expecting the G5 for about 2 years at that point, and so far it was nowhere to be seen. People were getting frustrated. When no G5 came out, the backlash was pretty extreme. Of course Apple never said a thing about a G5 then, so only the rumor sites and hyped anticipation of fans could be to blame.

But this year, I feel like the 970 hype is about 5 times that of the supposed G5 last year. Even though this is supposed to be a developer's conference aimed primarily at software issues, I cringe to imagine the backlash if PowerMacs continue with G4 processors, speedbump or not. Of course it makes sense that Apple would announce the 970 if it's true, simply because developers need to be aware of 64-bit issues coming up with Panther. But that does not make it so.

Strangely enough, Apple's instensely loyal following is a bit of a problem for them. When it comes to new product announcements, fanboy anticipation wildly exceeds the bounds of reality, so that even the greatest new product is barely good enough. With any "normal" company, they could announce a product that's a bit better than previous, and casual fans might say, "Cool, they enhanced this or that. I'll have to get me one of those..." With Apple, people love their existing products so much that they expect the next revision to give them an orgasm on sight.

A link

[ProfessionalCookie]

Steve Balmers hot dance video Everytime I see that I think "wow that guy is a real psycho"

GIVE IT UP FOR MEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! I Love This Compayeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

When he prances (ok maybe that's too delicate a word) across the stage he looks like a (really fat) upset beaver...and who chose the music.

At least if Jobs does it he'll have some better music (and won't make himslf look like a fat upset beaver).

Re:A link

[TheRaven64]

At least if Jobs does it he'll have some better music (and won't make himslf look like a fat upset beaver).

Indeed. He will also only have 3 words for you:

I...Love...Myself!

Re:A link

[ProfessionalCookie]

I...Love..Myself

Are you kidding?
Jobs would never admit that. It's blatently true but he would never come out and say "GIVE IT UP FOR MEEEEEEEEEEEEE in the middle of (or at the beginning of) a keynote because he knows it's looks dumb. Jobs is the king of false facades. He smiles for his keynotes and lets them out with a happy bang giving the credit to "we." Everyone knows that he knows that he is genius and he is- just very crude genius with foul language (the kind that calls the early Segwey "shit").

Still I doubt you'll ever here him say "I love myself" at any product introduction. (and he would have way better music.)

Re:A link

[Hes Nikke]

don't forget about the remix!

or it's music video ahhhhhhh!!!!!

Re:My employer, Sallie Mae, tripled its stock pric

[Anonymous Coward]

My employer, Sallie Mae, tripled its stock price in the last three years.

Apple quadrupled theirs in the last five years. (Two, count 'em, two stock splits. Woo.)

"with its 32-Bit PPC backward compatibility"

[Anonymous Coward]

(fwiw) this is one thing i could live without.

yes, i know why it is there, have done 64-bit work for dec & sgi, and, perhaps, understand intel's 64-bit overhead backward problems.

(imo) _if_ anything _move_ forward

Romans

[aphexbrett]

You know, that quote from Romans is pretty awesome. I was reading over Romans 8 a couple of nights ago and that passage struck me as being very reassuring. I wrote it down, it's a good one that I'm going to commit to memory!

Re:Romans

[JonathanBoyd]

Wow, someone who reads my sig :^) It's probably my favourite verse and definitely worth remembering, along with the rest of the chapter. Plenty of other awesome verses around it like 8:1-2,18,28-29.

Rumors about rumors...

[djupedal]

massive...not.

You must not be able to count beyond 3, and anything after that is a Carl Sagan number :)

Rehased hash is still hash...where's the beef?

Re:Rumors about rumors...

[ocelotbob]

Unfortunately, Taco et al have drank the Jobs Kool-Aide and have become little more than a drooling fanboy WRT Apple's hardware. Thus, they ignore apple's many shortcomings, including price, compatibility, their obnoxious hardware design, etc. As Apple is the last computer maker to head into the modern era with a 64 bit processor -- something other makers have had for months, if not years -- they're trying to generate hype for themselves and other fanboys so they can keep saying to themselves that the money they spent on the crapware from cupertino was somehow worth it.

New ObjC Runtime

[Anonymous Coward]

It seems great things are in store for Objective-C.

Apple is working on "generational garbage collection, dynamic compilation and recompilation, lightweight processor specific synchronization, and zero cost language bridging."

Take a look at www.apple.com/jobs. Search under software engineering positions. They want to add an "Advanced Runtime Engineer" to the team. The quote above is straight from the job description.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[questamor]

Oh no knocking intended :). They're excellent machines, and I know at least 2 graphic houses that still use 68040 based macs for scan cleaning. If it works and keeps working well, keep using it.

Redundancy of 'or not'

[ronubi]

I've always wondered why 'or not' is even included *once* in a 'whether' hypothetical. What's wrong with 'seems like the biggest uncertainty is whether 970 PowerMacs will ship.' Says it all. If you want to emphasize the uncertainty, you could say 'will even ship' or 'will ship at all.' The 'or not' is always implied in such a statement.

Re:Redundancy of 'or not'

[pyros]

Like when priests say "Forever and ever." I think forever pretty much covers it. "You got anything sportier, like a tuna?"

ps - that second quote is a hint to whom I'm making reference to.

Re:Redundancy of 'or not'

[Hes Nikke]

ok, i'll bite (however off topic it may be...)

in the princess bride, the bishop says "Forweva and eva" and in Disney's Atlantis, one of Micheal J Fox's crew says "You got anything sportier, like a tuna?"

whats the connection?

Re:Redundancy of 'or not'

[pyros]

The voice actor in Atlantis plays/played Father Guido Sarducci, which is where the Forever and ever quote comes from.

Re:My employer, Sallie Mae, tripled its stock pric

[Anonymous Coward]

> Sure, during the crazy housing boom that
> followed the dot com crash. Look for the
> housing market to crash shortly, thanks to
> massive increases in the interest rates, again
> thanks to the rising national debt.

Let's see...how exactly is the national debt causing interest rates to rise? Care to explain in terms other than econ 1 "crowding out" effect?

Something tells me you're not a Republican. Imagine that on /.

Go stroke yourself to a picture of sausage-legged Hillary or something.

MOD PARENT UP!!

[Anonymous Coward]

ZING!

i don't see your point.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's adjust for split price was about $13 5 years ago, and is $17 today. That is not quadrupling (which means FOUR TIMES by the way...in case you didn't know that)

I was talking about the last THREE years, for one thing. And our stock, which will triple-split shortly (And than means absolutely NOTHING except to idiots), has tripled in those three years. Up another couple of bucks today.

Here:

Apple - went from 50-60-ish, to 17 today
SLM - from 38-ish to $127 today.

over the last three years.

Now, what was your point, again? I'm confused how you can compare the two stock's performance. Or, is a Monday morning thing? I'll understand.

Re:i don't see your point.

[Anonymous Coward]

That is not quadrupling (which means FOUR TIMES by the way...in case you didn't know that)

I haven't bought a single share in 10 years. Since 1997, the value of my Apple stock has quadrupled. (Actually, slightly more than that.)

Now, what was your point, again?

That Apple's stock performance has been superior to Sally Mae's.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[gklinger]

Having browsed through your directory of images, I've concluded that you might be spending altogether too much time and money on computers. :)

That being said, Time Bandit is a great game.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[blakespot]

I've concluded that you might be spending altogether too much time and money on computers.

My wife is with you 100% on that, I'm afraid...

That being said, Time Bandit is a great game.

Indeed it is. One of the very best. Good memories of it back on my old Atari 520ST.

blakespot

Most hardware stocks NOT depeleted at Apple Store

[King Babar]

For what it's worth, I just checked online at the Apple Store, and pretty much *everything* was listed as shipping on the same day. It is possible that the Apple has emptied the distributors' channels and is holding the remaining inventory, but I would not be very sure about this.

Interestingly, what *wasn't* shipping the same day were two versions of the XServe (not the low-end model or the cluster unit, but the other two). Those were listed as 3-5 days. I haven't done this drill recently, so I don't know how unusual this is for the XServe.

In any case, it might be worthwhile "pinging" the Apple Store this week for the appearance of PowerMac shortages. right now, I don 't see any.

You lie!

[thatguywhoiam]

That's just a PlayStation2 hooked up to an SGI monitor with an Amiga CDTV keyboard.

Why you gotta lie to make friends? :)

G5 News *has* been pulled from sites

[King Babar]

On the subject of what rumors have been pulled by Apple legal, squiggleslash writes:

Those stories were about the iChat videoconferencing thing though weren't they? (Think Secret didn't change the URL names or titles - one of the URLs was http://www.thinksecret.com/news/videoconf.html)

Actually, stories about G5 Macs have also been pulled from www.macbidouille.com, as has www.macrumors.com and www.osnews.com and tech-report.com. All of these were about 64-bit offerings being shown at WWDC.

Now, whether Apple Legal had these pulled because they were accurate, or merely scurilous but potentially hurting hardware sales, is another question.

OH, I thought you said that the stock quadrupled

[Anonymous Coward]

in three years, or five years. I failed to see that 10 year timeline mentioned anywhere.

But, just for your info, I have gone to yahoo to look up the stock. Picked MAX timeline and laid the two stocks on the chart.

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=SLM&d=c&k=c1&c=aapl &a =v&p=s&t=my&l=off&z=m&q=l

Again, how has AAPL outperformed SLM? (based on that chart)

Or, pick another time frame up until TODAY and show me what you mean.

I TAUGHT Finance and still wonder what figures you're looking at here.

Thanks!

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[blakespot]

Yeah, and my 50Mhz 486 feels just as fast as my dual Athlon 2200+. The difference is, the 486 has butt-ugly Windows 3.1 graphics, and the Athlon has (relativly) nice WinXP graphics.

Are you comparing NEXTSTEP to Win 3.1 and then moving on to compare Mac OS X to Windows XP?? Granted - the comparisons are very similar in nature, but pays insult to both NeXT and Apple.

blakespot

New XServe rumor at macbidouille.com

[King Babar]

So just after I posted about (brief) shipping delays being shown for some XServe models at the online Apple Store, I checked and found that Mac Bidouille posted a new XServe rumor on their site.

In the interests of Slashdot's non francophile readers and despite the fact that I might screw up some of this translation, here is what that item says:

Grek sends us evidence (lit. testimony) that not only confirms rumors of the release of PPC 970 machines, but but also this time for servers.

A friend of mine in in contact with a salesman from Apple for the purchase of an XServe solution. After several exchanges, the salesman arranged a meeting with him immediately after June 23, a date of important announcements according to him, to talk about some new things in the server sphere. So there will not only be PowerMacs with the 970 that we are expecting (lit. waiting for), but also Xserve units!

I would remind you that the WWDC last year was the the time when Steve announced the first generation of the XServe in addition to Jaguar. This year, Panther will be there, but it remains to be seen if there will aslo be a speedboat for the XServe at the WWDC. [sorry, I'm not sure how to translate "une vedette de la WWDC]

Now, I do not find the logic here completely compelling; this could be just a price drop, or an announcement about software improvements or what have you, but WWDC wouldn't be a silly place to announce changes in the server line by any means.

Re:New XServe rumor at macbidouille.com

[xelph]

Vedette = Star (as in "Hollywood Star"). Speedboat is an alternate meaning of the word but it does not apply in this case, evidently...

Re:New XServe rumor at macbidouille.com

[Fuzzy Bo]

Hmmm - when you said "speedboat", I thought "launch"...

Re:New XServe rumor at macbidouille.com

[Lord Flipper]

[sorry, I'm not sure how to translate "une vedette de la WWDC]

That means 'star of the WWDC' as in celine est la plus grande vedette' [celine is the biggest star] ...show biz style, a la quebecoise...

Apple WILL be at MWNYC 2003... sans steve?

[johnpaul191]

Is MacWorld or "create" or whatever still moving back to Boston? i got the impression that was up in the air when the former president of IDG (a Boston native) stepped down....... Being a Philly person, NYC can be a day trip... Boston is a hike.

also Apple WILL be at MWNYC this year, just no Steve Jobs keynote.... today IDG announced .Greg Joswiak, vice president of hardware product marketing at Apple(R), will deliver the opening feature presentation at Macworld CreativePro Conference & Expo(TM). Joswiak will address Macworld CreativePro's audience of creative professionals on Wednesday, July 16 at 9:30 a.m. ET

Not the same as Steve Jobs i guess, but it sounds like he will probably be repeating a lot of what happens next week.... but tuned down to consumer-speak. The NYC conference is being geared more towards consumers and creative people. Kind of makes sense since it's just a month after WWDC. Since theya re targetting the creative Mac users, it seems like all the more reason to keep the East Coast Expo in NYC instead of the northmost edge of the megalopolis.

Re:Apple WILL be at MWNYC 2003... sans steve?

[andreMA]

I was under the impression (perhaps incorrect or outdated) that Apple wasn't even going to be an official exhibitor at MWNY 2003. I'll assume I was mistaken and stand corrected.

I still think the point is valid, though, concerning the potential release or announcement of new hardware. The PowerMac line hasn't been updated in quite a while and I doubt Steve Jobs would allow anyone else to make any important new hardware announcements (PPC970 boxen? One hopes...)

You're also correct that New York is actually a more sensible location for the East Coast Expo, given the concentration of advertising, television, print media there. I don't have to like it though. Damn you. But they are in fact moving to Boston in 2004... which Jobs objected to vigorously.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[damiam]

I'm comparing the relative appearence and performance of Win3.1 and WinXP to the relative appearence and performance of NeXTStep and OSX.

Mod parent up

[jos3000]

It's funny because it could be true: The rumor of piles

The kinds of things that get shown off at WWDC

[podperson]

Usually at WWDC the kinds of announcements that get made are software. If new hardware is announced it's from a software implications viewpoint. They may demo cool new boxes, but they aren't generally announcing ship dates or showing off new plastic cases.

The exception is when they have nothing in the way of new software or architecture announcements. (The Powerbook G3-500 release is the only example I can remember of a major product announcement at WWDC; and the other announcements at that WWDC were highly underwhelming.)

The big news is Panther. Apple hasn't told most of us what will be in Panther so the idea that they will muddy the waters by fuelling a bunch of consumer-related hysteria when what they really want is to get people excited about a new OS release seems to me to be far-fetched.

I'd be looking for a demo of the PPC970 (or an unnamed chip) but not a product release.

Then again, WWDC has become more and more like a pure marketing exercise as the years have gone by and the leaks have been plugged. The days when you could stand around with system engineers being told about the year after next's OS changes and the current OS's most egregious unfixable bugs seem gone (or maybe they just won't talk to me any more).

Re:The kinds of things that get shown off at WWDC

[debugdave]

The exception is when they have nothing in the way of new software or architecture announcements. (The Powerbook G3-500 release is the only example I can remember of a major product announcement at WWDC; and the other announcements at that WWDC were highly underwhelming.)

I believe the iMac was announced at the WWDC in 98

dave

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[Alan Partridge]

"and the Athlon has (relativly) nice WinXP graphics."

Aahh! And you almost had me going!

It *is* an issue

[Gorimek]

As a MacOS X user and very frequent web browser, I can assure you that there are plenty of sites that will look awful or simply not even work in any other browser (Camino & Safari) than IE for MacOS X.

I don't see it as too much of a problem though, since IE will keep existing in its present form even when M$ stops developing new versions. It would be nice to be able to use only one browser, but I can live with this.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[otuz]

Well, System 7.1 on my Quadra 950 (33Mhz MC68040, 64M RAM, 7G HDD) FEELS faster than anything on PPC.
Everything is quite instant.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[damiam]

Well, WinXP graphic effects (after you turn off the Luna shit) are undeniably nicer than 3.1's.

To Buy or Not To Buy?

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering the upcoming WWDC, would any of you buy an iMAC G4 today...7 days before the conference? This question really isn't as stupid as it may sound. Here are some things to consider...If the G5 is announced, it probably won't be placed in the iMac for some time...On the other hand, prices might drop on the existing iMac G4 if the announcements do affect the iMac in some way. If they do, does Apple offer a price guarantee similar to Dell? The point is...I want to buy an iMac today, but don't want to get burned in a week. As you can see from what I stated above, one could argue that I should buy today and worry about next week when it gets here...OR...one could argue that patience is a virtue.

Re:To Buy or Not To Buy?

[2nd Post!]

there is a price guarantee. If you like, give the Apple Store a call and talk to a real person.

Exceptions

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe in 1998, Apple announced the iMac at WWDC. Also, I'm pretty sure that the "Lombard" PowerBooks were introduced at WWDC in 1999. I remember that they had a giveaway every hour and the first guy to win was from Microsoft. Man, you've never heard so many boos...

2000, 2001, and 2002 the focus for developers was Mac OS X--Get Your Apps Moved! In 2002, Apple "buried" Mac OS 9.

So I could easily see the 15" PowerBook being released. Nothing fancy, though. I expect it to be the same as the 17" and 12" PowerBooks (ie, no PowerPC 970). I could also see PowerPC 970 machines being announced and demonstrated with Panther. Their availability remains a question.

(-1, Fanboy)

[Anonymous Coward]

making it mHz to mHz slower

Compare: "My foo is better is better than your foo using arbitrary undefined standards."

Re:(-1, Fanboy)

[andrewski]

Naw, by common agreement and study of the design the G4 is generally much more efficient per mHz than the P4 is.

Stating obvious facts, and correcting someone in error don't a fanboy make. Trolling untrue shit on slashdot doesn't change this.

New Powerbook

[fingers1122]

I was going to purchase a 15' powerbook, but now I'm thinking that I'll hold off for MacWorld. The problem is that I need a powerbook before June 30th. What do you think I should do? If the powerbook upgrade is released, what are the real odds that it will be available quickly?

Re:New Powerbook

[jpalmerino]

I went to an Apple store last week and checked out the powerbooks. I fell in love with the 12 inch powerbook because of its styling...Hey, we're talking about Apples here! The 15 inch seemed dated to me as far as its appearance goes. Technically, the 15 inch is superior to the 12 inch. I prefer portability though, so coupled with its styling, I'd buy the 12 inch powerbook. As for you...you said you need one by the 6-30. I don't need one, so I am waiting. If you need one, get one. However, I am speculating that the 15 and 17 inch models may be restyled to look like with the 12 inch powerbook. Because of this, I will wait. I also want an imac, but that's another post!

Re:New Powerbook

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a 15" about a month ago. Even if new books are going to be coming out, I don't think you want to be one of the first to have an new chipset inside of your box. It has been my experience that laptops have weird enough problems without having to deal with brand new technology. The upside of holding off is that if the new books are announced, you might see a slight price drop on the 15" models, then again the prices dropped a few weeks ago, so they may hold until the new models are actually shipping. Now to answer your real question. You're not going to be able to get an upgraded powerbook before June 30th, it's just not going to happen. Even if a new model is announced, no telling how many will be built. Remember the wait on the 17" books? I would buy the 15" pb now if I were you, if new books are released and shipping, you'll still be able to sell your brand new book for about 80% of what you paid for it. Not the best deal, but in the mean time you'll still have a kick @$$ laptop.

Re:New Powerbook

[phatlipmojo]

Holy shit, they have fifteen foot powerbooks now?

Re:New Powerbook

[Anonymous Coward]

15' means 15 feet

15" means 15 inches

I am 6'4", meaning six feet four inches tall.

Re:New Powerbook

[fingers1122]

Holy shit, they have fifteen foot powerbooks now? I know. I caught that mistake after I posted the message and had a feeling someone would comment on it. The shift key is a doozy. My apologizes.

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[kraksmoka]

man, i love nextketeers! i bought mine cuz i loved the keyboard. man, do u know of any converter or possible way that i could get that so proprietary keyboard to work on anything else?????

i love my next cube, but i saw the os running on a pentium 166 back in the day and it was screaming fast even back then. oh, and i liked the color. the cube i've got right now is a 25 w/ b&w studio monitor, so . . . .

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[kraksmoka]

i love my cube too, but lets face it man, the things are much faster as paper weights these days :(

can anyone reccomend a good application for my poor box, that will work, and be secure on the internet, today so it may find a home again??? or at least a decent free software archive for the thing that's still running????

Re:Serial ATA -- Apple _leads_ in innovation!

[blakespot]

You'll never see a Mac with the sort of bleeding-edge features found on "enthusiast" x86 mobos.

What are you talking about? Macs were the first machines to push FireWire hard. True, Macs have recently lagged in the speed of their internal ATA interface--but at least with FireWire you've got the fastest external drive interface (in practice it outpaces USB 2.0) and now there's FW800 integrated. And how about integrating not just a slot for a wireless ethernet card but having the cases wired with antennas? And Bluetooth - how many PC's have that built in now as well??

Sounds to me like Apple is leading the way in many areas of the motherboard featureset, as they always have. (How many PC's in the 80's and early 90's came standard with SCSI on-board??) And it seems that the areas where there is a current lack of performance vs. PC (internal HD bus, system bus speed) are about to get taken care of--bigtime. Some rumors are indicating that Serial ATA _will_ be part of these new 970-based Macs, as well and have you seen the bus speeds that are expected for these Macs???

I can't find an area that would foster PC envy in any owner of one of these forthcoming 970 Macs. Not a one.

blakespot

Re:Current G4 Supplies Depleted - what's NeXT ?

[rthille]

You can get a pretty nice NeXT ADB keyboard and an ADB->USB adaptor and use the keyboard on your mac. I did that for awhile, then convierted to a Belkin USB keyboard that I cut and re-routed traces so that CapsLock->Control.