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Win4Lin 5.0 Reviewed
uninet writes "About a month ago, NeTraverse contacted OfB Labs with an early release copy of Win4Lin 5.0, the follow-up to the already impressive Win4Lin 4.0 released in May 2002. Win4Lin, for those not familiar with it, offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box so that one can run Windows 9x (95/98/Me) inside GNU/Linux."
Win4Lin 4.0 has been renamed to Win4Lin 5.0 Full-Speed!!!!
I'm willing to pay for one of these windows-emulation packages when they finally get some 3D going, which is why I _really_ want Windows at this point. What's stopping them from doing this?
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
one of the toughest challenges a piece of software ever faces, the upgrade installation mode
I can think of several stress filled things a program may have to do. I'm not sure the upgrade installation mode ranks as the "toughest". Maybe it's difficult to get perfect...
yet you think it's unreasonable for people to criticize these coders who blatantly copy Windows
This is a virtualization program. A bit like VMWare... you still have to obtain (ahem) a copy of windows.
why would I want to run the any of the 9x-based Windows? 95 is pretty aweful (compared to what is available now); both 98 and Me have a pretty bloated feel. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to mention any of the new Windows, XP and 2K, which are arguably the best and therefore most desireable. Does anyone know if 2000/XP can be run?
How about running Linux on Windows? Then maybe people would be more inclined to test the waters of the Linux world. Think of it as a way to migrate users off of the M$ titty.
Life is not for the lazy.
Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need.
Except for Windows applications.
What's wrong with Wine?
...offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box...
Surely you're not suggesting that some tree-loving hippies can generate faster code than the world's biggest software maker? Quick, subsidise Microsoft so that it can compete more fairly! Better still, pass a law to make open source illegal!
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
I've only used Windows in VMware in linux - which works well, but takes a while to boot up (and there's still no 3d support). How does Win4Lin compare to vmware for this... anyone?
It looks like one of the most important new features is Winsock 2 support.
It's crazy how much time people put into making Windows emulators for GNU/Linux. I mean, if you want to use Windows applications, just install the Windows that came free with your computer. For the cost of Win4Lin or Wine, you can get a whole nother hard drive to dedicate to Windows, and it will be fully compatible.
On a related note, how come there are no Linux emulators for Windows? Is it because Windows has better alternatives to any Linux program, or is there some sort of GPL patent issue?
Boromir, son of Faramir, King of Gondor and Minas Tirith
Check out Transgaming. They support a variety of DirectX games, including some 3d games iirc. They do this through extending wine to support DirectX. What I don't know is if they feed changes back into the mainline Wine. I do know that CodeWeavers do, but they don't support DirectX...
On the other hand, the age old question is that if Windows emulation works SO well on Linux, then will there ever be a commercial market for native Linux apps? I'd rather see native ports of these various apps/games, and I hope emulation is simply a stopgap...
I believe applications such as this do not include windows... they simply give you a virtual system where you can install and run windows on. no one is copying look feel or function, they are simply allowing you to run a licensed copy of windows on top of Linux.
"The NeTraverse products are derived from a proven technology developed over the last 15 years for UNIX® based operating systems, notably SCO®'s, MergeTM technology, accounting for over 800,000 users worldwide."
Funny how the article didn't mention Win4Lin had any connection with SCO... probably because NOBODY wants to be associated with those money grubbers these days!
Since you can't run the newest games on any of those, it's not really an issue. Native ports won't happen until there's enough of a market and there won't be enough of a market until there's enough users and there won't be enough users until there's enough apps and so on in an endless loop.
The above-mentioned apps are to break this unfortunate cycle and get people on to Linux, which must be a good thing.
Does a Christian soccer team even need a goalkeeper?
Win4lin needs to be free, as it is important for people switching over to Linux. Something similar to the "free blender" campaign may be in order... I know I'd donate quite a bit to the fund.
Unfortunately, there's a lot of things people need Windows (or other specific operating systems) for.
There's no Linux equivalent to Microsoft Money, for example -- not something that can connect to my bank automatically and get statements and process transfers without having to import and export qif files. Same with Microsoft Streets&Trips -- there's simply no equivalent.
I can't connect a Linux box to my work's VPN either -- there's no working client.
And if I managed to do so, what would I use to connect to the Exchange server to get my emails and appointments?
Then there is, as the previous poster stated, the issue of games. Linux games are few and far between, especially 3D games.
Oh, and watching DVDs? (Legally, that is)
That said, there's similar cases where Unix-like systems can offer what Windows can't. cygwin helps, sure, but that's just like running a Windows emulator under Linux.
The real problem I see with the product is that Windows 9x isn't going to be supported for much longer, and new software more and more often require an NT5+ based OS (Windows 2000/XP/2003).
In which case Windows 9x compatibility won't help too much...
Regards,
--
*Art
On a related note, how come there are no Linux emulators for Windows? Is it because Windows has better alternatives to any Linux program, or is there some sort of GPL patent issue?
You can run linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux.
And from what I understand, you can do this in windows too.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Why Microsoft hasn't sued them out of bussiness?
Sony succesfully sued Bleem out of bussiness...
Granted you need a win98 cd to get this sucker running (Which means they have to still buy windows from Microsoft.)
but conversly, it means more people like my mother could potentially use it as they would then still be able to use their old win apps.
Now all we need is to run WinLin with a Unix emulator running a Mac Emulator running...
Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need. Because I'm a web designer, who has to test everything in Internet Explorer (used by 97% of the population). With a product like this, I can quickly boot up a selection of IE versions in different MS OSs whilst getting all the advantages of Linux for development.
an i say this in all seriousness.. why? why do you need this? seriously if you are going to use windows apps in emulation mode, either install windows or go for the better althernative OSX.
I switched to osx from linux 2 weeks ago, and it is wonderfult o be abel to use my linux apps under X11 while running word, ie and a bunch of commercial games. OSX is the best thing to use if you want unix and commercial app and game support.
Why emualate a third class OS when you have option of using it natively under *nix?
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
This 5.0 release seem pretty pointless to me. Win95/98/Me has never been in use in any sane production environment. Either people are still using NT or they've moved on to 2000/XP a long time ago.
If this should have been useful it would have had to emulate 2000/XP as well. IMHO this is near pointless software.
For some strange reason, Win4Lin gets mentioned several times at Slashdot. This uses SCO technology for the past 15 years. Here's a link:
g y. php?PHPSESSID=5ed8e1d8cb2384cbb6523ec150ee5779
http://www.netraverse.com/products/wts/technolo
Seeing MS is licensing SCOde, XP shouldn't be a problem - for now.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Let's admit it, Gimp ****ing s***s
Hmm, not to kind to the GIMP development team and I happen to know a lot of GIMP users who disagree with that statement. It works for me and many others. Maybe you should read more, or just be happy with using your own tools, or in the alternative convince the software makers of the applications that you want them on Linux? Seems like that could get you what you want better than criticizing the GIMP team, which doesn't get you what you want.
Not a flame, just a comment.
All Ad hominem replies happily ignored as the sender shall be deemed to lack the faculties to comprehend the equation.
8 of 13 people found this answer helpful. Did you?
What coders who copy Windows? You do realize that to install Win4Lin, you need to already own a Win9X CD. You go through the entire Windows installation process, including loading the Windows CD and typing in a valid product ID code. An entire standard Win9X installation is created on your PC, it just happens to live in a Linux file system.
Funny that you bring up SCO. Win4Lin is based on a DOS-virtualization technology called "merge" that SCO has also used. Here is a summary I found of its very convoluted history. (Google cache; real page is broken.)
Production environments moved to Windows 2000+ years ago because of operating stability issues encountered when running Windows 9x based systems. Nevermind the inherent security issues that plagued the operating system when the user is assumed to be the administrator of the machine.
Production environments that have selected Linux as their "host" operating system have already made a good choice in selecting a stable, secure operating system. Allowing their users to still be able to use "modern" Windows software (for various reasons) is priceless.
I used to work for a company which deployed Linux throughout. However, various assignments for software development required the use of Visual Studio, which runs just fine under Windows 98 - but, as you can imagine, has a difficulty running under Linux. I purchased Win4Lin 3.0 - and the flexibility (and speed), yet convenience of not having to install Windows was absolutely fantastic.
Ayup
That would make an interesting poll...
The last time I paid for the copy of Windows I used:
1995
1998
2000
2001
I don't use Windows you insensitive clod
Huh? Pay for Windows?
Yeah, it's bad to comment on sigs, but I had to laugh...
"DISCLAIMER: The views expressed hereafter are not necessarily those of MENSA, which I am only a member of."
How about "of which I am only a member"?
LOL!
Uh... hate to break it to you, but game developers aren't going to release their games for Linux regardless. The market is just too small. Every developer who has released anything for Linux has done so for one of two reasons: 1) to provide a dedicated server package only, since Linux makes an excellent server platform and you don't have to deal with graphics in a dedicated server, 2) Because they want to.
It makes absolutely no financial sense to release a game for Linux -- the market is too small, the market you're going after (individuals running Linux as opposed to corporations) is too hostile to commercial development, and the graphics support is generally completely different from what you have available in Windows (yeah, it's the same if you write for OpenGL, but there's a helluva lot more support for writing DirectX).
Yes, I run Linux. I also run Windows. Linux makes for an excellent server, an incredible development platform, and it's just fine for web surfing, but I still wouldn't recommend it as a desktop replacement to the average user, nor as a gaming box. Windows is a mediocre server, fine for web surfing, a decent development platform (obviously better than Linux if you're developing for Windows exclusively, but I'm a Unix coder so I'm biased), and a great gaming platform. Use the platforms where they perform well... if you want to use any single platform for all tasks, well, you're going to have gnashing of teeth whenever you hit the weak spots.
The obvious question is, how do you solve those weak spots, and I don't have a really good answer. But as far as gaming goes, I do suspect the answer will be improve Windows emulation, not try and woo developers over to Linux. It's a harsh reality.
to run win4lin you have to have a windows distro cd. at that point you might as well just run a dual boot system or even a separate box. plus, after using linux for years, i have yet to find a reason to have to go back to using windows (sure there are some win exclusive aps out there, but you can dual boot into those if you need to). all i see win4lin as is a nice hack, but a rahter bothersome and slow way to run windows if you honestly have to.
-Cnik
It comes with prepatched kernels for RH, SuSE, etc.. That was always one of my biggest gripes with W4L too; use a damned kernel module like VMWare. At the time I couldn't get the kernel patch to work with my (already patched) kernel.
Not to belittle your point in the slightest, patching the kernel is a pain in the a$$; however, to base you decision solely on the amount of work it requires seems a little silly. And you must admit, in some ways, patching your kernel is easier than installing 98 and creating a dual boot machine. Besides, I've found that if you don't build your own kernel with Red Hat, the performance loss is noticeable.
=================
Unix is very user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are.
Posix - all games should be coded to this standard, and they could run on any Posix compliant OS. (This ad sponsored by the UN. Please submit all comments in Esperanto.)
cabg x3 is a life changing event...
Pros:
VERY fast. About 95% of the speed of a real Windows installation. In some cases faster, such as startup/shutdown, both of which are near-instant.
VERY easy to install. Run the graphical installer, it downloads the neccesary kernel patch (needed to make Windows think its running on top of DOS instead of Linux), installs everything. Reboot, and you're done.
VERY compatible. I've yet to find a program that runs on a normal WinME box that won't run on Win4Lin WinME.
Good networking support. You can have your Win4Lin install connect to your LAN (via a virtual NIC).
Cons:
Programs seemed to crash more often in Win4Lin than in actual Windows. This may be fixed in 5.0.
Windows doesn't get to use a lot of your hardware. Mouse, keyboard, CD-ROM, sound (thru your linux drivers), printers (thru your linux drivers) and serial ports are accessible. Almost anything else (scanners, other USB toys, etc) are not. May be improved in 5.0.
Clipboard isn't consistent between Linux and Windows. May be fixed in 5.0.
No 3D, and only limited DirectDraw. Not much can be done about this.
Yeah, so it's not perfect, but it definitely beat the hell out of VMware or any other similar programs.
For what's worth, the kernel patch is totally transparent and does not involve recompiling. What basically happen is Win4Lin downloads a Win4Lin enabled version of the kernel you are using (depending on your distribution) and installs that one. You still have the option of booting your old kernel in lilo, even. Very well done, very impressive...
Mother is the best bet and don't let Satan draw you too fast.
I am astounded at the backlash the readers of ./ have vented at Netraverse. You people have never tried the product, but are willing to make unfounded claims about its speed and ability. I have used Win4Lin since the release of version 4, and I can tell you why you would use it, how it runs, and why it is cool:
I use it to encode videos in DivX format. DivX.com is the partner with one of my clients, and they do not have a encoding app for my mac, and the linux version is not as flexible (CLI) as the windows codec. So I run Adobe Premiere, Virtual Dub, and DivX 5.0.2 from within Linux! Prior to Win4Lin I had to reboot my machine to get into win2k for encoding. This has saved me so much time and frustration it is amazing. Also, I can simply back up the windows related directories (which are installed in my home folder on linux) and then I never have to install windows again, I can just install Win4Lin and restore the directories complete with programs, file associations, and serial numbers!
Win4Lin is fast! I noticed an incredible speed difference with windows 98 on a PIII 533 with 512 MB RAM! The OS booted in seconds even with Linux running with all of the bells and whistles of KDE (most of them anyways). Windows 98 is much, much snapier. And if it crashes (win98), I can easily kill the process and restart it in seconds! No rebooting, no headaches.
Finally, if you, as a geek, can not see the inherent coolness of running a virtual OS at higher than native speeds from within Linux, then you are no geek of mine... I have messed with WINE for years, hours of frustration to get the most basic apps working... but for a nominal fee (sometimes closed source is okay) I can get more work done, spend less time in windows, save my uptime, and forget about rebooting headaches! Have you ever tried to emulate win98 with VirtualPC on a mac?!? If you need windows, and your apps require speed, Win4Lin is the way to go. Period.
Ideally, Win4Lin would be open source, but these people have coded an incredible piece of software which was, to me, well worth the licensing fee! I don't need the true bloat of win2k or XP (nor do I need the EULA headaches!) all I need is a few win32 apps (for encoding video) and win4lin pulls this off for me with relative ease. No you can't play games, but shouldn't you be working anyways? Honestly, the waste of doing this with win2k or XP is obvious. If you just need the apps, you usually won't need all of the services and overhead that come with the latest versions of windows. Win98 runs most programs (albeit somewhat unstable) very quickly, it is solid in the sense that Linux isn't going to be brought down with it, it boots like a madman, and it does just about everything I need.
Quit being cheap, buy a copy and try it out. The support is very responsive, they have an active mailing list, and it actually does what the company claims. A successful Linux only vendor who provides support, upgrades, and a useful product. This is a model for other vendors regardless of OS!
for anyone wondering
95 is already considered obsolete
98 receives no free support after the end of this month, none at all after the end of this year (basically)
ME is unsupported at the end of the year as well
..but I still can't sell this to the Big Wigs upstairs.
Why? Because Windows 98 is on its way out. All of our proprietary software runs in Windows 95/98, but the new version coming out next month uses Windows 98 and up ONLY. I expect next year (or maybe 2005) it will be phased out much like Windows 95.
Let's face it, not one new machine built today comes with Windows 98 SE. And let's not get into the train wreck that was ME.
What I'm saying is we can't deploy linux on a large scale, even if it will run on our propriety software, until I know it will last at least 3 years (the usual PC-replacement development cycle).
So while I'd love to get this up and running for The Powers that Be, until something that's even more advanced and is guaranteed to support Windows 2000 or XP only apps comes along, no endorsement here can be made.
Of course, the irony is that were we to support this and purchase it for our organization that it would fund the win2k/xp only program support, however, just giving it the once over, what about USB devices such as WinCE devices (yes, a lot of execs do use them...my Tungsten T is the one palm of the whole place), printers, et al. Plus all the weird hardware that my org. relies on, such as high load scanners.
And if you've had any time in sys admining, vendors love to blame things like odd operating systems if their buggy software doesn't work the first time out.
Sigh. I push Linux every time I can around here (I'm the resident Linux Guy of the IT dept.), but it's just not there yet.
Almost all (Windows) 3D nowadays is either DirectX or OpenGL. I'll ignore the former for a moment and stick to OpenGL. How hard can it be to 'emulate' a glVertex3f call? Ok, I'm not saying it is trivial, but it must be a lot easier than the average Win32 API call. I mean, the function already exists anywhere you have OpenGL.
Back to DirectX or rather Direct3D... although this uses COM interfaces, the functions available are pretty similar to those in OpenGL. Now there will be a number of 'slow' functions (loading a large texture), but these will always be slow. A little more overhead won't make a huge difference. There are only a few functions (vertex, texture coordinates, normals etc) which get called really often. It is here that optimization efforts should be directed. Not easy, but should be easier than the entire Win API.
I will admit to ignoring the problems of X being a network protocol rather than a graphics one. I suspect that to reach optimal frame rates you wouldn't want to run DirextX games in an X window on another terminal over the network. But unix has always done well at allowing multiple 'terminals', so do it that way.
I use cowboy neil's windows longhorn cd
-or-
Cowboy Neil washes my windows
You've got that all wrong! SCO licenses the technology from NetTraverse, not vice versa. It doesn't use any SCO code and you do them a disservice for claiming otherwise.
As a user of win4lin I have to disagree.
Would people have felt this way about SCO technology a year ago? How about two years ago? I doubt it. So now I'm to punish Netraverse for not having the ability to forsee SCO's actions years in advance even though I myself didn't?
Thanks to Netraverse's product I now have 6 GNU/Linux ternimals running KDE where windows only boxes used to set. The users are doing less and less inside windows as they find *nix equivilents that work as well, if not better, than their windows counterparts. The installs under win4lin are more stable and require less support time. The product is solid and Netraverse's techincal support staff have been nothing short of amazing in dealing with issues that have cropped up.
While I have no desire to support SCO I have even less desire to punish a company like Netraverse for something that is clearly beyond their control.
Sorry for shouting, but this is getting crazy! People are slamming NeTraverse for using SCO technology and are even calling to boycott NeTraverse. That is simply untrue. Below is a quote from Jim Curtin, the CEO of NeTraverse: "Win4Lin is not built on technology licensed from SCO. SCO licenses technology from NeTraverse as an OEM and packages the technology on their UNIX platforms under our name "Merge". We do not license anything from SCO (nor do we need to)." People should check their facts before posting accusations and calls to boycott. They (the posters) have done NeTraverse and the Slashdot community a grave diservice. Instead of boycotting Win4Lin, maybe the posters should go out and by a copy to make amends for the mis-information they've spread and the harm they've done. Dcnjoe60 NOTE: I have no affiliation, whatsoever with NeTraverse, Win4Lin, Jim Curtin or SCO. I just think the record should be set straight on this one issue.
How odes Win4Lin compaire to it?
There are 10 type of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
Folks,
;-)
Win4Lin is not built on technology licensed from SCO. SCO licenses technology from NeTraverse as an OEM and packages the technology on their UNIX platforms under our name "Merge". We do not license anything from SCO (nor do we need to). From time to time we have used wording on our web site and in our literature that is accurate but perhaps on a quick read might be misconstrued. The comment "Win4Lin Terminal Server 2.0 is derived from proven technologies developed for Unix® based operating systems over the last 15 years, most notably those of SCO® (Caldera®), under the product name of Merge(tm)" is meant to convey that our technology has been in use on SCO variants of UNIX for some time - not that it is based on SCO technology. SCO Merge (or Sun Merge, or whatever Merge) is our product.
Rather than try and clarify the language on our web site, we will be taking it off
I hope this clears up the misinformation.
Jim Curtin
CEO NeTraverse
But Bochs can (very slowly, but still).
I love VMware by the way. It's one truely useful tool.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
I'm just wondering: Couldn't you push Linux for the things that Linux is good for? Get two or three machines for starters, just running the servers?
Then get one to two for work, and on those put Win4Lin. Argue that as a supplement, it's better. Then when someone wants to be using MS Word, they'll think "Fast or slow? I'll pick fast."
Next, start pushing hiring decisions in favor of those who know how to use and program Linux, where their spare time could be used to help script and such.
Doing it this way, you could argue that the company depends less on any one system, and is more resilient for surprise customer requests.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
I have Win4Lin and will no longer use it.
The Kernel modifications necessary to run it are too much to keep up with. Everytime you upgrade you have to either wait on them to build a kernel or patch the kernel yourself. And they do not come out with new patches quickly. And they only seem to support the kernel that ships with your linux distribution.
It's a shame that they seem either not able to or refuse to incorporate their patch in the kernel. If they did then this would be a very cool package. As is, it works fine, just locks you into the shipping kernel or a home patched kernel to use it everytime you upgrade.