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Win4Lin 5.0 Reviewed
uninet writes "About a month ago, NeTraverse contacted OfB Labs with an early release copy of Win4Lin 5.0, the follow-up to the already impressive Win4Lin 4.0 released in May 2002. Win4Lin, for those not familiar with it, offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box so that one can run Windows 9x (95/98/Me) inside GNU/Linux."
This friendly troll brought to you by the Goatsemon Music Group Mirror http://nero-online.org/goatsemon/
Dear rotten.com,
I am unsure if you are aware of the problems that your "Incident with the bird" picture has caused on the popular technology website slashdot (http://slashdot.org).
Many users of this site's messageboards are posting links to http://smoke.rotten.com/bird/ and making text based representations of a bird on a man's penis. Frankly, while I am pro-freedom, this type of photo sickens me. Could you please move the location of the bird page on your site to keep slashdot readers from seeing things that are completeley unrelated to computers and technology? I'm not asking you to remove the content, just to relocate it.
FYI the text representation of the bird is:
*p_e_n_i_s_b_i_r_d_p_e_n_i_s_b_i_r_d_*
p______...___________________________p
e____(_..__`'-.,--,__________________e
n_____'-._'-.__`\a\\_________________n
i_________'.___.'_(|_________________i
s____________7____||_________________s
b___________/___.'_|_________________b
i__________/_.-'__,J_________________i
r_________/_________\________________r
d________||___/______;_______________d
*________||__|_______|_______________*
p________`\__\_______|__/__''\_______p
e__________'._\______/.-`____{}|_____e
n___________/\_`;_.-'_________/______n
i___________\_;(((____.--'\_/________i
s_________.(((_____.-;\______________s
b____.--'`_____,;`'.'-;\_____________b
i_taco's____.'____'._.'\\____________i
r_dick_--'_________|__\_|____________r
d__________________\_\,_/____________d
*p_e_n_i_s_b_i_r_d_p_e_n_i_s_b_i_r_d_*
with a link to the offensive site (http://smoke.rotten.com/bird/) underneath, these "Penis Birds" are posted by Penis Bird Guy, Penis Bird MAN and several other users.
Regards, Andrew J. Tosh
This friendly troll brought to you by the Goatsemon Music Group Mirror http://nero-online.org/goatsemon/
Somehow the group attitude here is that it's wrong for SCO to take licensed Linux code and use it in their own products, since it's protected under the GPL. Well, the way Windows works and it's GUI is protected under U.S. copyright law, yet you think it's unreasonable for people to criticize these coders who blatantly copy Windows. Anyone here can explain this phenomena to me?
Hello.
It's good for gay webmasters.
Win4Lin 4.0 has been renamed to Win4Lin 5.0 Full-Speed!!!!
Just y'day there was an article on a UK firm doing a school Linux project using Win4Lin. This product uses SCOde, and isn't suited for true Linux enthusiasts.
Less of SCO, more of GNU, GPL I say!
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Why exactly does one need to run Windows at all? It seems Linux offers everything the average user would need.
I'm already looking forward to P2P'ing this...
I'm willing to pay for one of these windows-emulation packages when they finally get some 3D going, which is why I _really_ want Windows at this point. What's stopping them from doing this?
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO TROLLS UNITE oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO
We must rape the forums on the ph34rb33r website, in order to deride them, and insult their lame excuse for a 'webcomic'. There are minimal forum rules in place to stop trolls over there, such as a 20 second delay until another post can be done. Obviously, this allows you to refresh the page once the 20 seconds is up, and then resend the data, so that it will be reposted. The forum in question also has image posting capabilities, allowing you to use the explicit material contained upon rotten.com and goatse.cx. In addition to all this lack of troll-protection, the forum actually allows anonymous postings! Members of TrollKore have already trolled their forums multiple times, with crapfloods and the posting of sexual imagery. The posts were deleted after around an hour, but I believe that we have put a small dint in their weak ego. Ah, did I say 'their'? I meant 'his', since he is the only one that runs the webcomic, and has no friends.
A sample of the offending content is here. Please note how the webcomic is fucking lame and unfunny, and its very existence needing to be eradicated from the Internet. Also note how the comic looks as if it was drawn by a small child (and probably was). THE INTERNET IS NO PLACE FOR A SMALL CHILD, LET ME TELL YOU, GOOD SIR! At present, this is more important than meer Slashdot, fellow trolls. You now troll for FREEDOM, FREEDOM FROM AN INTERNET WITHOUT LAMENESS FROM SUCH TWATS.
I ask you this... if the forum could be down by tomorrow, isn't that worth trolling for? ISN'T THAT WORTH CRAPFLOODING FOR?!?
I plead to you, fellow troll, this fucking LOSER has to be revealed for the motherfucker he really is.
Thank you.
TrollKore out.
oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO TROLLS UNITE oOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoOoO
-PENIS--PENIS--PENIS--PENIS-
P________________8',-',";,.P
E_______________#'',-',";,.E
N______________8(',-',";,..N
I_____________#(',-',";,.,.I
S__________#8#8_',-',";,.,.S
-_________#',-.8',-',";,.,.-
P________8~',-..#',-',";,..P
E_______#'',-',";8_',-',";.E
N_____8=',-',";.+#+',-',";.N
I____#=',-',";,._8',-',";,.I
S___#=',-',";,..(#',-',";.8S
-__8(',-',YOUR,.(8',-',";s#-
P_8(',-',MOTHER";#',-',-s8_P
E_#z',-',LOVES,";8',-..s#__E
N_8_.,#',"YOU',";~#,..88___N
I_#.##',-DEARLY,";~8,8#____I
S_8##',-+~'',-',-~#'8______S
-_#.,..-',-',";.'=8#_______-
P_.8+_',-',";,.'88_________P
E___888',-',";~8___________E
N______8#888#88____________N
I__________________________I
S____.oO TrollKore Oo._____S
-_At the head of the game._-
P__________________________P
E___irc.freedomirc.net_____E
N_______#trollkore_________N
I__________________________I
S__________________________S
-PENIS--PENIS--PENIS--PENIS-
one of the toughest challenges a piece of software ever faces, the upgrade installation mode
I can think of several stress filled things a program may have to do. I'm not sure the upgrade installation mode ranks as the "toughest". Maybe it's difficult to get perfect...
I didn't have the patience to create an account at win4lin.com - is there a free downloadable version available?
From hell's heart I fstab at /dev/hdc
What the Hell is a "Simoniker" and why do Taco and Michael smile when they wait for their turn at him ?
why is it modded down?
NeTraverse...How is it pronounced?
Net reverse? or
Knee traverse?
But the question is, if things like Win4Lin, Wine. Lindows and VMware, are not the very reasons, for which the game producers don't release their games with native GNU/Linux binaries? After all, why would they care to do so, if they assume, that GNU users can run Windows games... This is a serious matter, I wonder what people more familiar with the "gaming industry" think about it. Have anyone done any serious research about this subject?
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
why would I want to run the any of the 9x-based Windows? 95 is pretty aweful (compared to what is available now); both 98 and Me have a pretty bloated feel. Unfortunately, the article does not seem to mention any of the new Windows, XP and 2K, which are arguably the best and therefore most desireable. Does anyone know if 2000/XP can be run?
How about running Linux on Windows? Then maybe people would be more inclined to test the waters of the Linux world. Think of it as a way to migrate users off of the M$ titty.
Life is not for the lazy.
If this open source shit can run the same stuff as windows, in the judges eyes it is ruining a copyrighted product.
Thanks for playing, dickcheese!
What's wrong with Wine?
...offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box...
Surely you're not suggesting that some tree-loving hippies can generate faster code than the world's biggest software maker? Quick, subsidise Microsoft so that it can compete more fairly! Better still, pass a law to make open source illegal!
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
I've only used Windows in VMware in linux - which works well, but takes a while to boot up (and there's still no 3d support). How does Win4Lin compare to vmware for this... anyone?
We use VMware for legacy stuff - any hints as to how the two compare? If it's easier to install/deploy then I might migrate..
I don't read your sig, why do you read mine?
It looks like one of the most important new features is Winsock 2 support.
Good question. Too bad you won't get it answered, except by the dolts who think it's ok to copy the look+feel+function.
It's crazy how much time people put into making Windows emulators for GNU/Linux. I mean, if you want to use Windows applications, just install the Windows that came free with your computer. For the cost of Win4Lin or Wine, you can get a whole nother hard drive to dedicate to Windows, and it will be fully compatible.
On a related note, how come there are no Linux emulators for Windows? Is it because Windows has better alternatives to any Linux program, or is there some sort of GPL patent issue?
Boromir, son of Faramir, King of Gondor and Minas Tirith
Check out Transgaming. They support a variety of DirectX games, including some 3d games iirc. They do this through extending wine to support DirectX. What I don't know is if they feed changes back into the mainline Wine. I do know that CodeWeavers do, but they don't support DirectX...
On the other hand, the age old question is that if Windows emulation works SO well on Linux, then will there ever be a commercial market for native Linux apps? I'd rather see native ports of these various apps/games, and I hope emulation is simply a stopgap...
"The NeTraverse products are derived from a proven technology developed over the last 15 years for UNIX® based operating systems, notably SCO®'s, MergeTM technology, accounting for over 800,000 users worldwide."
Funny how the article didn't mention Win4Lin had any connection with SCO... probably because NOBODY wants to be associated with those money grubbers these days!
Here the homepage of NeTraverse: www.netraverse.com
...and a screenshot.
My spirit takes a journey through my mind...
Win4lin needs to be free, as it is important for people switching over to Linux. Something similar to the "free blender" campaign may be in order... I know I'd donate quite a bit to the fund.
On a related note, how come there are no Linux emulators for Windows? Is it because Windows has better alternatives to any Linux program, or is there some sort of GPL patent issue?
You can run linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux in vmware in windows in vmware in linux.
And from what I understand, you can do this in windows too.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
It will be modded (-1 redundant high-speed).
Slashdotter are stupid and biased.
Unless you obtained an illegal copy of Windows, most of us actually have to pay for it. Last I knew, Windows wasn't free.
Yes, this is sarcasm.
Why Microsoft hasn't sued them out of bussiness?
Sony succesfully sued Bleem out of bussiness...
Granted you need a win98 cd to get this sucker running (Which means they have to still buy windows from Microsoft.)
but conversly, it means more people like my mother could potentially use it as they would then still be able to use their old win apps.
Now all we need is to run WinLin with a Unix emulator running a Mac Emulator running...
...offers near-native (or better) speed "virtualization" of a Windows box..
Alas, even linux can't really speed up Micro$soft software - it must alter reality and virtualize it for us...
From excellent karma to terible karma with a single +5 funny post...
I stopped reading right there. No thanks. I left my kernel patching days behind me when I tossed Slackware in favour of Red Hat four years ago. I don't want to deal with that shit any more.
...used to be games and 3D stuff.
But now its syncing with my PocketPC. Does anyone know if this product can do this with PocketPC 2002?
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
an i say this in all seriousness.. why? why do you need this? seriously if you are going to use windows apps in emulation mode, either install windows or go for the better althernative OSX.
I switched to osx from linux 2 weeks ago, and it is wonderfult o be abel to use my linux apps under X11 while running word, ie and a bunch of commercial games. OSX is the best thing to use if you want unix and commercial app and game support.
Why emualate a third class OS when you have option of using it natively under *nix?
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
This 5.0 release seem pretty pointless to me. Win95/98/Me has never been in use in any sane production environment. Either people are still using NT or they've moved on to 2000/XP a long time ago.
If this should have been useful it would have had to emulate 2000/XP as well. IMHO this is near pointless software.
Since when is windows free? Last I checked XP pro was around $180 and XP Home was $100. If you building a $1000 machine that is roughly a 10% or 20% increase to the cost of the system.
Do you mean free as in if you buy a preloaded computer from a vendor then you don't see it factored into the price?
k
Comment removed based on user account deletion
For some strange reason, Win4Lin gets mentioned several times at Slashdot. This uses SCO technology for the past 15 years. Here's a link:
g y. php?PHPSESSID=5ed8e1d8cb2384cbb6523ec150ee5779
http://www.netraverse.com/products/wts/technolo
Seeing MS is licensing SCOde, XP shouldn't be a problem - for now.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
Production environments moved to Windows 2000+ years ago because of operating stability issues encountered when running Windows 9x based systems. Nevermind the inherent security issues that plagued the operating system when the user is assumed to be the administrator of the machine.
Production environments that have selected Linux as their "host" operating system have already made a good choice in selecting a stable, secure operating system. Allowing their users to still be able to use "modern" Windows software (for various reasons) is priceless.
I used to work for a company which deployed Linux throughout. However, various assignments for software development required the use of Visual Studio, which runs just fine under Windows 98 - but, as you can imagine, has a difficulty running under Linux. I purchased Win4Lin 3.0 - and the flexibility (and speed), yet convenience of not having to install Windows was absolutely fantastic.
Ayup
...
Wine runs apps, this is about running an OS
So I took delivery of my shiney new 2004 John Deere tractor, and man is it nice! Everything's all automated now, you just work your field once, and it remembers the course so it can be played back at any time! Schweet!
Unfortunately, the microcontroller runs on Windows CE, and requires that your press [CTRL][ALT][TROLL] to login. Well, I'm an old farmhand, and needless to say, I've had my arm ripped off in a threasher accident (no shame in that, I mean, like, who hasn't?) Which leaves me with the problem of having to manage to press three seperate keys on the keyboard using only one hand. Saying that this is a difficult proposition is an understatement at best. How the hell did Bill Gates get to be so rich by being so damn stupid?!!
to run win4lin you have to have a windows distro cd. at that point you might as well just run a dual boot system or even a separate box. plus, after using linux for years, i have yet to find a reason to have to go back to using windows (sure there are some win exclusive aps out there, but you can dual boot into those if you need to). all i see win4lin as is a nice hack, but a rahter bothersome and slow way to run windows if you honestly have to.
-Cnik
Posix - all games should be coded to this standard, and they could run on any Posix compliant OS. (This ad sponsored by the UN. Please submit all comments in Esperanto.)
cabg x3 is a life changing event...
Why would anybody with intelligence high enough to merit Mensa membership care about being valuable to a collective called "society"? If you're intelligent enough for Mensa, you're intelligent enough to grok that there is no society without a group of individuals. It takes at least three people to make a society: two to group together and make the third an outcast.
Virtual PC is now owned by Microsoft, so I wouldn't count it on running Linux on Windows for too long.
Go for VMWare. They're still independent.
When you write a program for Win9x, in it's alpha stage you could bring down the computer.
Why not just bring down and emulator or three instead?
I am astounded at the backlash the readers of ./ have vented at Netraverse. You people have never tried the product, but are willing to make unfounded claims about its speed and ability. I have used Win4Lin since the release of version 4, and I can tell you why you would use it, how it runs, and why it is cool:
I use it to encode videos in DivX format. DivX.com is the partner with one of my clients, and they do not have a encoding app for my mac, and the linux version is not as flexible (CLI) as the windows codec. So I run Adobe Premiere, Virtual Dub, and DivX 5.0.2 from within Linux! Prior to Win4Lin I had to reboot my machine to get into win2k for encoding. This has saved me so much time and frustration it is amazing. Also, I can simply back up the windows related directories (which are installed in my home folder on linux) and then I never have to install windows again, I can just install Win4Lin and restore the directories complete with programs, file associations, and serial numbers!
Win4Lin is fast! I noticed an incredible speed difference with windows 98 on a PIII 533 with 512 MB RAM! The OS booted in seconds even with Linux running with all of the bells and whistles of KDE (most of them anyways). Windows 98 is much, much snapier. And if it crashes (win98), I can easily kill the process and restart it in seconds! No rebooting, no headaches.
Finally, if you, as a geek, can not see the inherent coolness of running a virtual OS at higher than native speeds from within Linux, then you are no geek of mine... I have messed with WINE for years, hours of frustration to get the most basic apps working... but for a nominal fee (sometimes closed source is okay) I can get more work done, spend less time in windows, save my uptime, and forget about rebooting headaches! Have you ever tried to emulate win98 with VirtualPC on a mac?!? If you need windows, and your apps require speed, Win4Lin is the way to go. Period.
Ideally, Win4Lin would be open source, but these people have coded an incredible piece of software which was, to me, well worth the licensing fee! I don't need the true bloat of win2k or XP (nor do I need the EULA headaches!) all I need is a few win32 apps (for encoding video) and win4lin pulls this off for me with relative ease. No you can't play games, but shouldn't you be working anyways? Honestly, the waste of doing this with win2k or XP is obvious. If you just need the apps, you usually won't need all of the services and overhead that come with the latest versions of windows. Win98 runs most programs (albeit somewhat unstable) very quickly, it is solid in the sense that Linux isn't going to be brought down with it, it boots like a madman, and it does just about everything I need.
Quit being cheap, buy a copy and try it out. The support is very responsive, they have an active mailing list, and it actually does what the company claims. A successful Linux only vendor who provides support, upgrades, and a useful product. This is a model for other vendors regardless of OS!
It rules, no bloatware or crappy built in annoyances. But if you can't play 3D games anyway, then who gives a damn?
I went to battle MC Escher but drew a blank
for anyone wondering
95 is already considered obsolete
98 receives no free support after the end of this month, none at all after the end of this year (basically)
ME is unsupported at the end of the year as well
..but I still can't sell this to the Big Wigs upstairs.
Why? Because Windows 98 is on its way out. All of our proprietary software runs in Windows 95/98, but the new version coming out next month uses Windows 98 and up ONLY. I expect next year (or maybe 2005) it will be phased out much like Windows 95.
Let's face it, not one new machine built today comes with Windows 98 SE. And let's not get into the train wreck that was ME.
What I'm saying is we can't deploy linux on a large scale, even if it will run on our propriety software, until I know it will last at least 3 years (the usual PC-replacement development cycle).
So while I'd love to get this up and running for The Powers that Be, until something that's even more advanced and is guaranteed to support Windows 2000 or XP only apps comes along, no endorsement here can be made.
Of course, the irony is that were we to support this and purchase it for our organization that it would fund the win2k/xp only program support, however, just giving it the once over, what about USB devices such as WinCE devices (yes, a lot of execs do use them...my Tungsten T is the one palm of the whole place), printers, et al. Plus all the weird hardware that my org. relies on, such as high load scanners.
And if you've had any time in sys admining, vendors love to blame things like odd operating systems if their buggy software doesn't work the first time out.
Sigh. I push Linux every time I can around here (I'm the resident Linux Guy of the IT dept.), but it's just not there yet.
Is that you?
Almost all (Windows) 3D nowadays is either DirectX or OpenGL. I'll ignore the former for a moment and stick to OpenGL. How hard can it be to 'emulate' a glVertex3f call? Ok, I'm not saying it is trivial, but it must be a lot easier than the average Win32 API call. I mean, the function already exists anywhere you have OpenGL.
Back to DirectX or rather Direct3D... although this uses COM interfaces, the functions available are pretty similar to those in OpenGL. Now there will be a number of 'slow' functions (loading a large texture), but these will always be slow. A little more overhead won't make a huge difference. There are only a few functions (vertex, texture coordinates, normals etc) which get called really often. It is here that optimization efforts should be directed. Not easy, but should be easier than the entire Win API.
I will admit to ignoring the problems of X being a network protocol rather than a graphics one. I suspect that to reach optimal frame rates you wouldn't want to run DirextX games in an X window on another terminal over the network. But unix has always done well at allowing multiple 'terminals', so do it that way.
Windows? 95 is pretty aweful
/. crowd would think that it was awful.
Personally, I was never filled with awe. I think that rest of the
Please submit all comments in Esperanto
Sinjoro, vi aro idioto. aro vi felica nu?
The "[CTRL][ALT][TROLL]" just pushed things to far, eh?
It doesn't matter that Windows 98 is a bit old. I suppose most people only need one or two Windows programs on their linux box. In that case, Windows 98 is quite stable and fast. Much faster than Windows 2000, I think. If you install a dozen of programs, Windows 98 will become sluggish and cluttered (anyway, my copy does) so Windows 2000 may be better..
;)
Of course, it depends on what you mean by 'production environment'. If it's a nuclear plant, I wouldn't trust Windows at all. And Windows in an emulator would even be less attractive..
History matters..
You've got that all wrong! SCO licenses the technology from NetTraverse, not vice versa. It doesn't use any SCO code and you do them a disservice for claiming otherwise.
The question about SCO and Win4Lin/Merge came up on the Win4Lin-users mailing list recently, and there were some interesting replies:
r s/Message/4749.html r s/Message/4750.html
https://www.netraverse.com:9100/lists/win4lin-use
https://www.netraverse.com:9100/lists/win4lin-use
Win4Lin is based on Merge technology, which as also been licensed *to* SCO. SCO has never owned any of the Merge code - the just resell it in their Unixware package.
VMWare has been providing the ability to run nearly all modern OSes that are available for x86 - the caveat is in its virtualization of computer resources which leads to a performance hit; one that Win4Lin focuses on dealing with by utilizing the existing facilities in a Linux box for its actual Windows process.
I think as of 3.0 (3.2.1/4.0 are current), VMWare has the ability to access raw internal devices (IDE/SCSI) as well as provide support for external USB devices with excellent OS-to-OS transparency. You can find out more about their Workstation software by clicking here.
Most Windows applications have no problem running under Windows 9x (especially 98+). It is true that Microsoft is phasing out applications from running on their legacy Win9x operating systems, the rest of the world is still supporting Windows 9x+ and will do so when it because unfeasible to do so within their operating budgets.
Win4Lin allows people to run Windows applications at almost native speeds (if not a wee bit faster) than a true Windows 9x system, while still allowing their systems to be stable and Linux based. Where VMWare has the ability to run modern Windows operating systems (NT based), it does so with a penalty on performance and system requirements.
I can only assume that Win4Lin is going to pursue the same type of support for NT based Windows when Windows 9x is retired from the list of eligible operating systems that can run Windows software. But for now, it will serve to bridge the gap quite nicely.
Ayup
Sorry for shouting, but this is getting crazy! People are slamming NeTraverse for using SCO technology and are even calling to boycott NeTraverse. That is simply untrue. Below is a quote from Jim Curtin, the CEO of NeTraverse: "Win4Lin is not built on technology licensed from SCO. SCO licenses technology from NeTraverse as an OEM and packages the technology on their UNIX platforms under our name "Merge". We do not license anything from SCO (nor do we need to)." People should check their facts before posting accusations and calls to boycott. They (the posters) have done NeTraverse and the Slashdot community a grave diservice. Instead of boycotting Win4Lin, maybe the posters should go out and by a copy to make amends for the mis-information they've spread and the harm they've done. Dcnjoe60 NOTE: I have no affiliation, whatsoever with NeTraverse, Win4Lin, Jim Curtin or SCO. I just think the record should be set straight on this one issue.
How odes Win4Lin compaire to it?
There are 10 type of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
You are mistaken!
Win4Lin's kernel patches are not binary only, they are patches. Debian isn't supported, officially, but it works; I have two computers running Debian with Win4Lin working on them.
You apply two patches: the "MKI adaptor" patch, which just adds a new interface to the kernel, and the Win4Lin kernel patch. I just built a 2.4.21 kernel last night with the 2.4.21 version of the Win4Lin kernel patch. No problems.
The only regrettable part with Win4Lin: it doesn't work with kernel preemption, or with the low-latency patches. I hate it when my Ogg music skips on playback, so I always ran the low-latency patches before I got Win4Lin. Now I can't.
If you want to build a custom kernel with Win4Lin support, go ahead and do it. As long as you don't have preemption or low-latency it should work.
I look forward to kernel 2.6.x, as I'm sure Win4Lin will be made to work with it (Netraverse does a good job of customer support) and 2.6.x will have huge improvements with respect to latency.
steveha
lf(1): it's like ls(1) but sorts filenames by extension, tersely
hehehehe
Folks,
;-)
Win4Lin is not built on technology licensed from SCO. SCO licenses technology from NeTraverse as an OEM and packages the technology on their UNIX platforms under our name "Merge". We do not license anything from SCO (nor do we need to). From time to time we have used wording on our web site and in our literature that is accurate but perhaps on a quick read might be misconstrued. The comment "Win4Lin Terminal Server 2.0 is derived from proven technologies developed for Unix® based operating systems over the last 15 years, most notably those of SCO® (Caldera®), under the product name of Merge(tm)" is meant to convey that our technology has been in use on SCO variants of UNIX for some time - not that it is based on SCO technology. SCO Merge (or Sun Merge, or whatever Merge) is our product.
Rather than try and clarify the language on our web site, we will be taking it off
I hope this clears up the misinformation.
Jim Curtin
CEO NeTraverse
and get that +5 grandparent back down ...
One simple rule for its versus it's
VMware works much better than Win4Lin. It's costs more but it's worth it.
VMware runs any Windows flavour, plus a bunch of other OS's (Linux, *BSD's, etc.).
In my ongoing attempt to Learn to Love Linux, I tried installing Cygwin at home on my Windows XP. It crashed. No doubt this is due to some trojan planted by Bill the Gates in order to keep me from Linux rather than just a, uh, crap installer.
P.
But Bochs can (very slowly, but still).
I love VMware by the way. It's one truely useful tool.
The ratio of people to cake is too big
http://216.239.41.100/search?q=cache:UIxZ_jqTcxgJ: www.mail-archive.com/gnhlug-discuss%40mail.gnhlug. org/msg03722.html+win4lin+merge+sco&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
One simple rule for its versus it's
I'm just wondering: Couldn't you push Linux for the things that Linux is good for? Get two or three machines for starters, just running the servers?
Then get one to two for work, and on those put Win4Lin. Argue that as a supplement, it's better. Then when someone wants to be using MS Word, they'll think "Fast or slow? I'll pick fast."
Next, start pushing hiring decisions in favor of those who know how to use and program Linux, where their spare time could be used to help script and such.
Doing it this way, you could argue that the company depends less on any one system, and is more resilient for surprise customer requests.
Correct Horse Battery Staple: 72 bits of entropy. Enter "Correct H" into google. When it generates the phrase, that's
> How about running Linux on Windows?
Here it is:
http://www.knopper.net/knoppix/index-en.html
"This product uses SCOde"
Umm, I'm sure you realize of course that this is old SCO we're talking aobut for the original code... New SCO group doesn't look to me as being seriously interested in creating anything other than work for lawyers. But in any case NeTraverse licensed and paid for the code prior to all this occuring, advocating punishing them for things that are completely out of their control is wrong! Not only that, it is short-sighted. Irresponsible zealots, think about this: Netraverse could have come forward and did a MS. "Look, we respect IP, we paid for blah blah blah..." So, my short-sighted zealot, you want to give them a reason to provide bad press?
"and isn't suited for true Linux enthusiasts."
Which you sir most certainly are not. Isn't linux supposed to be about freedom of choice? Oh wait, or is that only so long as you don''t decide of your own free will to use commercial software? Or so long as yopu only use zealot-approved software?
Get real, your position is no more tenable than Microsoft's position. Open Source is not the one true way. Closed Source is not the one true way. They are polar extremes, and as in reality (the one the rest of us live in and my zealot friend denies) the real answer lies somewhere in the middle. Where in the middle is a function of who you are and what you want to accomplish. It is not a moral deficiency to use commercial software to accomplish a task. Further, using freeware to accomplish a task in preference to commercial software better capable of accomplishing the task is not moral, it is stupid, short-sighted, and counter-productive.
Allthough I use Linux for 90% of my computinbg tasks, I recognize that the other 10% my computing time is better handled by other platforms. On my linux servers are a variety of free and commercial products. Again, I use the best tool for me to accomplish the required work in the least time, with the least aggravation.
I am sick and tired of the Linux zealots though, Linux is not for everyone, it is not God's own operating system. The world doesn't need a Society of Linus (Linuits?) running around putting everyone who doesn't accept their perceived moral superiority to fire and sword.
Please be responsible in your advocacy.
Although a migration to XP is planned for sometime this year, Windows 95 is used here at the Dept. of Fisheries and Oceans, Govt. of Canada.
(I use GNU/Linux and have Win4Lin installed for the occasional corporate Word file.)
I have Win4Lin and will no longer use it.
The Kernel modifications necessary to run it are too much to keep up with. Everytime you upgrade you have to either wait on them to build a kernel or patch the kernel yourself. And they do not come out with new patches quickly. And they only seem to support the kernel that ships with your linux distribution.
It's a shame that they seem either not able to or refuse to incorporate their patch in the kernel. If they did then this would be a very cool package. As is, it works fine, just locks you into the shipping kernel or a home patched kernel to use it everytime you upgrade.
Simple, X/Cygwin in rootless mode ssh -X over to a spare old box, start up your lil window manager (I like fluxbox) and boom! Linux on Windows.
(Don't start a 3D game while having an X/Cygwin session open though, you'll lose it for some reason, at least under XP)
-- taking over the world, we are.
Because sometimes you need a 98 app and its convenient/better to use it under Linux. Like say web development with Dream Weaver or checking compatibility with Internet Explorer. There are numerous reasons.
;-)
I think a better question would be whatâ(TM)s with that OSX spellcheck?
I switched to osx from linux 2 weeks ago, and it is wonderfult o be abel to use..
Quack, quack.
Windoze will be around.
There are too many folks hooked on Outlook & its kin.
Probably more like Ne-tra-verse.
They probably think it's a terrible clever name.
To all of those claiming to be geeks (you are reading /. aren't you? ;) stop complaining about patching your kernels! Wow, I can't believe that Linux has become so popular that average pee-cee users are now using Linux (what other explanation is there for someone to complain about patching a kernel!). First there are binary packages for most distros, yet there is also source if you are a) using another distro, or b) too cool to not install from source. If you haven't YET compiled the kernel (or any other application for that matter) from source go back to native winblows or get a 'pretty' mac (isn't it cute)! ;)
You are on the wrong OS, slothful one. Go get a Macintosh.
"...so that one can run Windows 9x (95/98/Me) inside GNU/Linux..."
Why in god's name would you ever want to?
t_t_b
I'm on PJ's "enemies" list! Are you?
The WordPerfect for Linux sucks. I havn't figured out how to get WP for Windows running on WINE yet but I'm close. I can install it OK, but when I try to run it, it suggests I register OLE2.reg which doesn't seem to exist. I did an install of dcom98 but that has seemed to work. I've been using WP since 4.2 and I won't switch to another wordprocessor until it supports all of the features I use and can import/export WP files. OpenOffice still has a way to go (and runs like a three legged pig).
I personally use WineX for old Windows games, but stick to native Linux for newer ones - anything that isn't native I simply don't buy (I choose to vote with my wallet).
:)))
As for needing Windows, unfortunately, as a programmer I frequently get paid for writing software for Windows (you can only eat so much pride before you need some real food) - all I did was buy a crap low end box (P3 733, 256Mb RAM - cost me about £150), install Windows 2000 on it, run it headless with VNC and just control it remotely from Linux - perfect and all with free, open source software! (obviously excepting the Micro$oft bit but Win4Lin doesn't take away the need for that, does it?)
Win4Lin still sounds like a decent product - it just wouldn't suit me. My way, I keep the actual physical touching of a filthy Windows box to a minimum
Or can I run Plan 9 or something in it?
Really? I was sure they have, at least VMware. Is there any reason they shouldn't support 3-D?
Lindows is not "just a Linux distribution." It is meant to be a cheap Windows substitution. Most of the people without technical knowledge are sure that Lindows runs everything which is written for Windows. We all know how it is in practice, but most of people don't.
Have you seen this list? I would say that 150 screenfuls of games is quite impressive, in my opinion.
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
You are probably right. I sometimes get a little bit paranoid, wondering if Wine might be a Microsoft conspiracy just to say to game developers: "Do you want your games to be portable? Then use DirectX and Win32 API!" You know what I mean... I'm just worried about Steve's and Bill's evil laughter while they think about us emulating their APIs, supporting their file formats, and otherwise getting dependent on them. But I'm probably wrong. Or at the very least I do really hope so...
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
I don't know what I find the most insulting: that you said I am dumb, that you called me an "ass," or that you suggested I might work for Microsoft. Do you think I would advertise GNU on my user informations page, if I worked for Microsoft? I don't think so. As a matter of fact, I don't even use proprietary software and I find it offensive, that you are implying I have no moral standards suggesting, that I could write such a software.
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
I have to agree with you. Humans are indeed animals. I doubt they will ever learn...
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
But you have to admit, that we are a little bit more intelligent, than they are.
Karma: Positive (probably because of superiour intellect)
...because they can work quickly.
Win4Lin is much faster than the other emulation layers. On my machine it runs faster than native Windows ever did. Also, you should keep in mind that the maximum amount of memory that Win4lin will allow is 128MB.
Even if this wasn't the case, the memory space for Windows programs is separate for the one for Linux, so it pays to have an OS that is slim. Win2k and XP AREN'T that. Windows 2000 and XP are arguably the best, but because of stability, not performance. In this case, the underlying OS can be stable.
Is it crashes you're worried about? It doesn't seem like as much of an issue when a "reboot" takes three seconds.
I just wish they'd do message passing between DirectX and DRI. Right now Win4Lin 5.0 has directX, but it's software based. I'm sure they're saving that for version 5.0 so that they can make more money.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
Get real - Netraverse keeps up rather well - you just need to check your expectations a bit.
I found that in general you can expect the newest kernel patch to be supported within a few weeks...
What did you expect for your $50 licence?
There is a tradeoff here, like with anything in life - get used to it, or pay them for faster turnaround - I'm sure they'd love to have those patches out the next day!
Jan
Try getting these to run under Linux. Good luck.
When it comes right down to it, you can run VMWare or Win4Lin. No other choice is really viable now.
With Win4Lin & Samba I can run Linux on a corporate network, and not lose out on anything! When I need to do a PPT presentation - no problem, run Win4Lin full screen and you're good to go. My laptop gets an extra ~30 minutes of runtime under Linux, I get to use a sane development environment, and my co-workers don't have to worry about OpenOffice files getting garbled.
This isn't for servers, and this isn't for most end-users. This is for developers.
Jan
I was a huge fan of Win4Lin 3.0, and I thought it was well worth the money. Over the course of time, I got frustrated with it because of a few problems I had with the printer port (probably my error, not W4L3), and Winsock2 based apps (like Kazaa Lite, etc). I didn't want to use Vnet and have a second IP in use.
Netraverse sent me an email with the $29.99 upgrade price, and I jumped on it once I saw the Winsock2 upgrade stuff. I wanted to note that for some reason, I had to uninstall Win4Lin 3.0 because it kept complaining that the code (Netraverse GAVE me) wasn't an "upgrade code", but a "full install" code.
I installed it fresh, and 'lo and behold, my printer worked flawlessly, and Kazaa Lite no longer hangs for indefinite amounts of time. It's just really fast and stable, and a nice thing to have in a time of need.
Nowadays though, I don't really run it that often. Its there in case I need to print something a boss sends in Office (that must LOOK IDENTICAL on the printed page, something OO can't mimic right), or for Kazaa or Photoshop (its what I am used to from school).
Bottom Line: Win4Lin 5.0 is the best route for perfect compatibility and speed of Win32 applications. I use WineX for the games (Diablo II in incredible with it!)
DrPascal: Not the language, the mathematician.
I am a cow
I guess my pointing out the SCO reference has helped your firm in that you've re-worded the page (sensibly, I might add). A casual reader is still left with the impression that your product uses (proprietary?, copyright? patented? trade secret?) System V code, currently being brandished as a weapon by SCO.
May I suggest you remove all Unix references from your technology page? BTW, seeing you don't license anything from SCO, do you have unbridled access to SysV code? A certain Eric Raymond might like to hear from you.
Thank you.
PS (to moderators): I see my parent post is modded down to -1 (Insightful). If it's modded back to +5, readers are bound to benefit when they read these clarifications - thanks.
If you keep throwing chairs, one day you'll break windows....
According to the link you provided, "Extended hotfix support ends 30-Jun-2003. After 16-Jan-2004, the product will be obsolete and no support of any kind will be provided." You still have a few months...