Palm Releases New Tungsten T2

securitas writes "Palm has released its latest PDA, the Tungsten T2. The T2 features a Texas Instruments 144MHz OMAP 1510 ARM processor, 32MB SDRAM (29.5 available), 320 x 320 transflective TFT display, wireless communications including Bluetooth, email client, SMS, and web browser, Palm OS v5.2.1, and MP3, video playback, and photo software. It will set you back $399. You can read more about the Palm Tungsten T2 and get tech specs (PDF) at the Palm site. Press release here. More at CNet, PC World, Infosync, the Register and the Inquirer. I'm not sure how many people will buy this product instead of waiting for its newly acquired Handspring Treo 600."

Comments

*yawn*

[ravenousbugblatter]

I don't see anything new here at all - they just bundled a bunch of things. When is there going to be some fresh innovation in the PDA world?

Re:*yawn*

[perly-king-69]

What do you want to see? If there's no demand, there's no supply. Mostly.

Re:*yawn*

[Patrik Nordebo]

Nothing new? It has a new display and twice the memory. That's bundling only in the sense that any handheld is a bundle of components. It also comes with a new version of the OS, including Graffiti 2, which I don't think is available for the Tungsten T.

Re:*yawn*

[torpor]

Have you not seen the new Sony Clie UX-series yet?

I dig my NX70V... it is most righteous being able to read slashdot.org anywhere in my pad, wirelessly. I can even go across the road to the park with it.

In my opinion, PDA's are getting better and better every month ...

Re:*yawn*

[nixer]

The hassle with PDAs is that it is really difficult to get past the form factor. They are too big to intregrate well into a phone - and since I don't want to carry two devices this is a real issue for me - and I want as small and light a phone as I can get. The latest Nokia phones (e.g. 6100 - the one I own) also have the key functionality I want - i.e. the ability to sync my Outlook contacts and schedule. All the other functionality is fluff that isn't as well handled as a regular laptop or other device. If I do e-mail, I want to be able to reply without taking 4 hours to scribble it in. Hence I'll carry a light weight laptop instead (like my Sony Vaio). The same goes for note taking. If I want to do media, I'd rather use my laptop or my i-Pod, both of which have enough storage to put all my MP-3s on (about 1400 tracks at present), or I'll choose one of the new phones from Nokia again if I'm prepared to compromise and only to carry 20-50 tracks. Ultimately PDAs don't do anything well - I've owned four and all four now sit in the drawer, having been replaced by the devices mentioned above. - Nick

Re:*yawn*

[Mwongozi]

That's not innovation. That's a modern Psion.

Re:*yawn*

[Anonymous Coward]

Nothing new? It has a new display and twice the memory.

Which aren't new. Other manufacturers have had *better* displays and *more* memory for *years*.

Re:*yawn*

[Liquorman]

Agreed. What I want is a 40GB iPod that is a phone and has PDA functionality! I don't even care if it is the size of a Tungsten if it can do all of those things! But, obviously, the smaller the better. I don't care about a damn camera phone or a PDA that lets you store 128 MB of mp3s on a card! Sheesh.

Re:*yawn*

[colmore]

Well see, this time the PalmPilot is sent by the good guys from the future and he's trying to SAVE Sarah Conner, but yeah, it's basically the same.

Re:*yawn*

[jimstone]

I bought an m505 when they were first released (mid 2001), then I bought a collapsable keyboard some time later. This has allowed me to take notes for all my classes (using docs to go), which I can then sync when I get home. I can sync my Palm addresses with my Ericsson T29m phone (which I can also use to remote sync email / news[via AvantGo]) For mp3 playing, I have a tiny Creative one - very basic with about 96MB storage, but ideal for the ultra light traveller Trust me, a lap top might be well and good - but it doesn't fit in your pocket (along with the keyboard) when you're on a motorcycle. The cost vs my needs balances out better than I'd hoped. OK so I have 3 devices plus a keyboard, but they're smaller in overall dimension than any laptop, and have the all the functions that I need. (a mate of mine uses his PalmVNC to remote admin his UNIX boxes). Cheers, Jimstone

Article Text

[dakryx]

Palm on Wednesday launched its newest Tungsten handheld targeted at businesses, the Tungsten T2.

As previously reported, the T2 comes with 32MB of memory, twice that of its predecessor, the Tungsten T. It also includes a new "transflective" display, which is the same size and resolution as that of the Tungsten T, at 320 pixels by 320 pixels, but Palm says it is more easily viewed both indoors and outdoors.

Updates aside, the T2 focuses on multimedia performance, including software for maintaining a digital photo album, playing audio files and viewing short video clips. The handheld also comes with the latest edition of Palm's operating system, version 5.2.1, and built-in Bluetooth wireless. It continues to use Texas Instruments' OMAP 1510 processor.

Tungsten T2, which is available now, will sell for $399, according to Palm. Originally priced at $499, the Tungsten T now lists for $349.

Along with the launch of the Tungsten T2, Palm confirmed price reductions on two of its consumer-oriented handhelds, in an effort to help stimulate sales.

The company dropped the price of its m515 handheld from $299 to $249, and cut its m130 from $199 to $179, the company said. Palm's last price cut was in February.

Stereo Headphone Jack

[kitsook]

They finally include something that is really usefully...

Re:Stereo Headphone Jack

[the_2nd_coming]

the Tungsten T only had mono audio....the T2 has stereo.

Re:Stereo Headphone Jack

[PghFox]

Er, the original Tungsten|T has a stereo Headphone Jack, as clearly indicated here.

Re:Stereo Headphone Jack

[justinstreufert]

Sorry, but that is not correct. I own a T|T, and it most definitely has stereo sound.

Not the best sound in the world (weak bass, low overall volume) but stereo it is!

Some of the other Tungsten series do not have stereo sound, but the T|T does.

Justin

Re:Stereo Headphone Jack

[jezor]

It's the Tungsten C that has mono-only sound. {J}

Re:Stereo Headphone Jack

[Aliencow]

It is the 802.11b Tungsten C that has a stupid Mono jack. If it wasn't mono, I would've bought one already, but I'm gonna wait for the Tungsten 3 which has Virtual graffiti (320x480) !

Handspring Treo

[Surak]

Yeah, I expect the Treo to retail somewhere in the high $400s, about for an extra $100, it's a cell phone too, which this doesn't appear to be.

The only thing is I gotta wonder how long the Treo will last after finalizing the merger with Palm. Will Palm provide support? For how long? Palm will most likely kill off the entire Handspring line of products, this will include the Treo 600, which will no doubt be short-lived.

Re:Handspring Treo

[NDPTAL85]

The Treo 600 is WHY Palm bought Handspring. They aren't going to kill it, they want to take it and support it and come out with better future models.

Re:Handspring Treo

[hey!]

We develop for the palm platform and have both Treos and Tungsten Ts in house, as well as a pretty wide variety of Wince devices.

A lot depends on how you feel about phone-PDA convergence. As a pure PDA, I prefer the T to the treo. It's smaller and much more rugged feeling. The Treo feels plastic-y. The treo is larger, but has the advantage that you don't have to carry a separate phone. However, with the T you can have the benefits of phone integration with certain phone models via Bluetooth. Carrying the second device is no big deal in my book, because the Tungsten-T is small and light enough that it is comfortable in the pocket. I personally haven't used the T for this purpose, but if you wanted to send SMS or browse the web, you probably wouldn't even have to take your phone out of your briefcase.

The bottom line is that both devices are nice and which you prefer depends on your usage. For people who use their PDA and phones lightly, I'd recommend the Treo, because the inevitable compromises of shoehorning a PDA and phone into the same small package won't matter to you. If you're a heavy user of the phone or PDA, I'd go with a Tungsten/Bluetooth Phone combo.

Re:Handspring Treo

[ThogScully]

Yeah, I expect the Treo to retail somewhere in the high $400s

Dude, if that's true, I'll buy one in a second. I'm a huge Handspring fan with a VisorPhone Prism. I'd love to have had the money to buy the Treo 270, but come on - it just came down from $700 in the last few months. I'll be ecstatic if a Treo 600 will be under $500, but let's get a little realistic at least.
-N

Re:Handspring Treo

[Mr. No Skills]

The only thing is I gotta wonder how long the Treo will last after finalizing the merger with Palm.

As a bitter Handspring Visor owner, I would guess not too long since Handspring doesn't even really support the Visor anymore. The whole PDA and cell phone market has become nothing but thrashing through product and technology changes so fast that it's impossible to use any device more than 2 years. No wonder people aren't buying -- it's a market for $300-$500 disposable electronic devices.

The only consolation is that when my Visor Pro batteries will no longer hold a charge I can probably by replace my Visor (and modem/GPS/compactFlash/folding keyboard modules and assorted cables) with something for around $125.

Re:Handspring Treo

[GarfBond]

You my friend have absolutely no insight into Palm's business strategy. I'm not going to profess that I know all, but it's fairly obvious why Palm bought Handspring.

Handspring has transitioned themselves into a smartphone provider after moving away from the typical PDAs, and only now are they starting to catch on. palm has met only mild success with their smartphone/blackberry type device, the Tungsten W. If palm wanted to kill off handspring, why would they buy a company that makes nothing but smartphones? Handspring certainly isn't going after palm's core business, straight-up PDAs.

Furthermore, earlier reports of the Handspring buyout mentioned that Palm was particularly intrigued by the Treo 600, and that device is pretty much what clinched the deal (in other words, Handspring didn't just stop dead in their tracks). Why kill off the product that caused you to buy the company?

It's fairly apparent that Palm is planning to attack all markets. If I were a betting man, I would be expecting the Tungsten W to quietly go away, while the Treo will become Palm's super new smartphone. While it's true that the Tungsten W is more business oriented, it doesn't seem such a stretch for them to make a device and call it Tungsten Treo or something. The T|C is only offered in conjunction with AT&T. Handspring has agreements with Tmobile, Cingular, and Sprint. These are resources palm would enjoy to have.

The tungsten T isn't designed to have a builtin phone, or a builtin camera, or anything fancy. It's palm's business workhorse, and is priced accordingly.

Re:Handspring Treo

[Surak]

I'll be ecstatic if a Treo 600 will be under $500, but let's get a little realistic at least.

Um, not to be rude, but RTFA. ;) I wasn't pulling the number out of my ass. ;)

What's with 32 MB memory?

[minghe]

"As previously reported, the T2 comes with 32MB of memory"

How come those devices always are so cheap on internal memory? I mean, get a least 128 MB in the cheapest of MP3 players these days. So what's the problem?

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[ThePeeWeeMan]

'cause most Palm apps are small ( 1MB). IIRC, the Tungsten T2 will (like other recent Palms) come with a SD/MMC/CF slot for expansion, so they can save costs by including less onboard memory.

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[BenjyD]

1Mb? That's a huge Palm app! Most apps are around 30-64K (not including those with lots of extra data like plucker web pages, of course).

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[EpsCylonB]

coz 32 MB is fine for web browsing and all the other things you might want to do. This isn't going to run Quake 3, nor was it meant to.

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[ThePeeWeeMan]

Yup, but most people judge the "size" of an app by looking at it in the Info program; on mine, AvantGo takes up 821KB and I've seen portable PDFs take up > 3MB before.

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[73939133]

How come those devices always are so cheap on internal memory? I mean, get a least 128 MB in the cheapest of MP3 players these days. So what's the problem?

The T2 "memory" is RAM, your MP3 "memory" is flash storage. The T2 doesn't come with any flash storage built-in (but you can put hundreds of megabytes of flash storage into its expansion slot).

Furthermore, until recently, PalmOS couldn't even cope with more than 16M of RAM (although it could address more flash storage).

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[vasqzr]

This is Slashdot.

It will have Doom ported to it, and it will run Linux.

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[minghe]

And thus, I am enlightened. Thanks.

But I think a chunkload of built-in flash-memory wouldn't be such a bad idea Ideal for storing documents, MP3 files, whatnot. I might want to use the SD slot for other purposes.

Btw: How the hell was my post modded insghtful, when what I did was wearing my ignorande on my sleeve? (asking fellow /. questions)

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[73939133]

But I think a chunkload of built-in flash-memory wouldn't be such a bad idea Ideal for storing documents, MP3 files, whatnot. I might want to use the SD slot for other purposes.

The new Sony Clie has internal flash. But a better choice is probably to have dual expansion slots. The Zaurus and a few other handhelds do.

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[Mr_Silver]

'cause most Palm apps are small ( 1MB). IIRC, the Tungsten T2 will (like other recent Palms) come with a SD/MMC/CF slot for expansion, so they can save costs by including less onboard memory.

Maybe so, but a 2 meg data file on your PC will still be 2 meg when you stick it on your PDA. More memory is always good.

My biggest gripes is the ancient and featureless built in applications (they haven't been significantly updated since 95 or so) and the fact that there is no continious syncing a la ActiveSync. This means that I can't just grab my PDA at any time and head into a meeting knowing that it's fully up to date (I'd have to hit the sync button just before).

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[ThePeeWeeMan]

More memory is always good, yes, but most modern apps (as in after 2000 or so) can read/write SD cards or be run on them.

I agree about the applications; on my m130, it's shocking that Memo Pad *still* has a 8kb limit, which I could understand when I was using my IIIxe (FWIW, I'm still using it); fortunately I managed to get hold of the Tungsten T CD and installed DocsToGo on the Palm (for about 3.5MB)...

Also, the ICQ client for Palm doesn't seem to have been updated recently, and MSN/Yahoo/AIM don't seem to have clients for PalmOS either.

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[jandrese]

The problem is battery life. The larger the internal memory is the more power it takes to run the chip. More power == less battery life. Flash cards are nice in this regard in that they require no power to maintain state (unlike the DRAM used inside the Palm), but they have very power intensive write operations. Besides, 32MB is quite a bit for a Palm device, if you need more (stored dictionaries or multi-volume ebooks), use the expansion slot.

Re:What's with 32 MB memory?

[Halloween Jack]

Maybe for utility programs and the like, but lots of medical apps take up anywhere from 2 to 10, count 'em, 10 megs--and the healthcare field is Palm's big vertical market.

Tungsten T2 vs Treo 600

[cesarcardoso]

I'm not sure how many people will buy this product [the Tungsten T2] instead of waiting for its newly acquired Handspring Treo 600.

They're very different beasts, appealing to very different people. I can't imagine people in doubt between the T2 and the Tréo 600.

Re:Tungsten T2 vs Treo 600

[BigBir3d]

T2 - 320*320

Treo 600 - 160*160

That alones makes a big difference in who wants which one.

Re:Tungsten T2 vs Treo 600

[mcwetboy]

Screen resolution isn't likely to be the key issue in deciding between a general-purpose Palm and a smartphone.

Re:Tungsten T2 vs Treo 600

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the resolution, it's the radio.

I have a Treo 180. It has a little black and white screen which isn't much better than my old Pilot 1000. But I'd rather have the Treo 180 than a Zire 71 or other Palm with a big color screen. Sure, I like the color screens but I NEED the radio.

The Treo 600's screen isn't as nice as the Tungstens, but it has the radio, and the screen is a lot better than my Treo 180. And it plays MP3s. So it looks like a winner. The Tungsten series would have been great 4 years ago, but not anymore. (The Tungsten W was interesting but the Treo won out on cost. The T|W's need for a headset, no MP3 and larger size and cost offset the nicer screen it has).

Re:Tungsten T2 vs Treo 600

[Dehumanizer]

Sorry, but... if I wanted a radio (which I don't), I'd buy a radio, not a Palm or a cell phone.

Re:Tungsten T2 vs Treo 600

[Anonymous Coward]

You realize I used "radio" in a generic sense - because the Treo contains a cellular radio, right? Or was this supposed to be a funny quip as if I meant FM radio?

Re:Tungsten T2 vs Treo 600

[BigBir3d]

I agree, but the poster of the article made the comparison, so I commented on it.

I am old school I guess... I have a cell phone I like (v.60), a mp3 player I like (refurb iPod 10GB) and a laptop. No PDA for me (newest I ever used was a Palm V).

If there is ever a practical PDA / cell phone combo, then I might go for it. But I think that device is 2 or 3 generations away still.

Re:Tungsten T2 vs Treo 600

[cesarcardoso]

T2 - 320*320

Treo 600 - 160*160

That alones makes a big difference in who wants which one.

Hey! Treo 600 is still on 160x160? Hm. Bad.

The expansion slot

[waltmarkers]

Why does palm insist on using a lower capacity, less adaptable expansion slot?
Seriously, compact flash is cheaper for memory:

SD costs 232 USD for 512 MB - http://www.pricewatch.com/1/226/5642-1.htm

CF costs 96 USD for 512 MB - http://www.pricewatch.com/1/226/4003-1.htm

1 Gigabyte is only available in CF, and the SD/ MMC format can only be used for memory whereas CF can do almost anything PCMCIA can. Is the space saved really that important? Or could the unit not afford the slight extra power drain? Why does palm insist on the clearly inferior expansion slot?

Re:The expansion slot

[the_2nd_coming]

compact flash is also HUGE in physical size compared to MMC or SD.

Re:The expansion slot

[dtldl]

Of all the formats to moan about, try the sony memory stick on the clies. propriatary format, more expensive than SD/MMC last time I checked and about to become incompatable with itself with memory stick pro.
The advantages of SD are the size, protected content can be put on it hence Secure Digital and if you wanna moan about all protection is bad, use an MMC, slightly smaller cheaper in places, uses the same slot.
And the most important thing compatability. All new camcorders afaik except sony take SD cards and loads of stills take SD, plenty of mp3 players take MMCs, my old phone took an MMC.
And heres something insightful, google palm SDIO, theres an add on camera, a bluetooth card, a wifi card coming up, a video out for presentations. Nothing but memory?

Re:The expansion slot

[mcwetboy]

the SD/ MMC format can only be used for memory

You never heard of SDIO? What's this Bluetooth card that fits in my m505's SD/MMC slot, then? There's already an SD digital camera for the Palm, and SD 802.11b cards are due this fall (sooner for Pocket PC).

Is the space saved really that important?

Yes.

Or could the unit not afford the slight extra power drain?

PDAs are always a tradeoff between size and features. A PDA with a CF slot and a larger battery to power it would be larger than a Tungsten T2. The Sony NX series has a CF slot and a pile of other features; it's also considerably larger and has been criticized for its short battery life, which apparently has been rectified to some extent with the new NX73/80 handhelds.

Why does palm insist on the clearly inferior expansion slot?

Because it's not inferior -- it just has different advantages and disadvantages than CF.

Re:The expansion slot

[73939133]

Why does palm insist on using a lower capacity, less adaptable expansion slot?

To which one might add: SD is proprietary and not publicly documented.

Why do they do it? Because SD is much smaller than CF.

Note that there are SD expansion devices, although the SD "card" in that case becomes little more than a connector.

Re:The expansion slot

[shione]

Yea they shoulda gone with Memory stick. they go up to 1 gig now and with sony making palm devices I'm sure they can cut a deal for a themselves.

Re:The expansion slot

[Koyaanisqatsi]

www.bhphotovideo.com has 256MB SD cards from SANDISK priced at $70

at $0.27/MB that's the best "bang for the buck" I could get when I purchased memory for my digi-cam; YMMV;

As someone already said, MMC/SD is very nice being so small. But I rather have both CF and SD/MMC because there are some nice CF periferals (for memory it's just too bulky ...)

Re:The expansion slot

[swv3752]

I just went and checked Froogle and Sd memory ranged $42- $70 and Memory Stick ranged $50-$70 for 128mb. So the low end is a bit cheaper.

Both Lexar and Sandisk make Memory Sticks, so it is not a proprietary format. It is patented so you need to pay Sony royalties to use it, hence not a lot of electronic devices use the slot besides Sony's.

BTW everything you mentioned for Sd is already out for Memory Stick.

Re:The expansion slot

[The-Perl-CD-Bookshel]

Nope...The new Samsung "high-end DV/4mp digital still camera" Camcorder takes Sony memorystick pro.

Re:The expansion slot

[Anonymous Coward]

Before you posted this, I just suspected that you were an idiot.

Now I know for sure.

Re:The expansion slot

[gklinger]

Here in Toronto I can get 256Mb Comapct Flash card (Sandisk) for $85 and a 256Mb Secure Digital card (Lexar) for about $95 so there isn't that big of a price difference. Oddly though, when you move to a 512Mb card, the CF costs less than *half* what the SD costs ($175 vs. $425). To further illustrate the difference, you can get a 1Gb CF card for $325 and as far as I know, there are no 1Gb SD cards on the market at any price.

I know that SD cards are physically smaller than CF cards and smaller is usually more expensive but this seems excessive. I can only assume that the price differential is attributable to the greater demand for Compact Flash cards (scales of economy and all that). Perhaps this will change in time.

The fact that we're complaining about the price (which is quite reasonable in the big scheme of things) suggests that we might be spoiled. No matter how you square it, a PDA with 32Mb of RAM and 256Mb or more of storage is very impressive.

Now, if I could only decidce if I should buy a new PDA or a new phone or a combo device. I'm looking downright retro with my Palm IIIc and Nokia 5100 series phone. Teenagers are laughing at me (which may or may not have anything to do with my inferior devices, but I digress).

(all figures in Canadian dollars BTW)

Re:The expansion slot

[PetoskeyGuy]

I agree, I would like to see a CF slot in the cheaper Palm devices. I love the Dell Axim - it's cheap and includes both a CF and an SD slot. If there were a $200 Palm device with these features I would buy it in an instant.

People have mentioned SDIO, but be aware that there are precious little SDIO devices out there yet. Almost everything is expected to come out in the near future, and most likely be high priced compared to the CF alternative.

I think another big problem for palm would be that there are no palm drivers for the existing CF products. I have 10/100 Ethernet, WiFi and Barcode scanners in CF modules as well as your basic memory. If palm suddenly came out with a CF slot tomorrow, I would still be waiting for manufacturers to produce drivers to make my CF cards work on my new device. I would also (gladly) have to rewrite my applications to take advantage of this new hardware on those devices.

That's another reason I haven't upgraded(?) to Windows Pocket PC 2003, or Mobile or whatever Microsoft has decided to call their latest patch - er, Operating System for handhelds. The drivers for many things still aren't stable on PocketPC 2003.

Re:The expansion slot

[Large Green Mallard]

I'm really hanging out for 802.11b for my tungsten.. the bluetooth is CRAP.

Re:The expansion slot

[Kompressor]

I work for a country wide Canadian camera retailer, and one of the most common questions I get RE the digitals is "Why is there such a price difference between media formats?" (although the customers are usually aren't nearly that coherent)

The older formats are usually cheaper, SmartMedia and CompactFlash being as old as each other cost about the same up to 128MB (AFAIK, no SmartMedia beyond 128MB), and the new media formats, SD/MMC and XD Picture Cards, both cost more. I usually attribute this to, as you said, market saturation, along with "Well, these older formats have been around so long that they've already covered the costs of engineering them and building the plants to make it, whereas the new formats are a bit behind, and so still cost more, but prices are falling fairly quickly." With the rate that prices are falling faster on the SD/MMC and XD cards in regards to CF, I can't think of any better explanations.

Re:The expansion slot

[Anonymous Coward]

whos the dumbass that modded itredundant? no ones mentioned HD memory stick which is smaller the rest.

drawkcab gnivom si ygolonhcet ADP

[Rmorph]

.sdrawkcab ecnatnes siht etirw ot emit dah I taht yadot cnys ot gnol os gnikat si ti tcaf nI ....ledom 1002 ym sa cnys dna ,sksat od ,toob ot gnol sa eciwt sekat QAPI wen yM

Re:drawkcab gnivom si ygolonhcet ADP

[skvngrx]

What's a "sentance"?

Re:drawkcab gnivom si ygolonhcet ADP

[welshsocialist]

Thanks for giving me a mental workout. It is welcomed.

Re:But can it...

[Alan Partridge]

...who cares?

eh....

[hatrisc]

what a great day for palm! and i still haven't had time to get my zaurus talking to my box.

Re:But can it...

[hatrisc]

i'm sure it can, and theres a good start with one of those projects. porting it to this guy probably wouldn't take too long.

I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[MarcQuadra]

I really miss the black and white, 33MHz palms. What a wonderful idea those were. I never used more than 512K of the ram on those things and the batteries would last me weeks on end. My Palm III and Visor Deluxe worked without flaw for years. Now they've got too many faetures and extras, except for the zire, which feels very cheap and breakable to me (not to mention the TINY screen). I thought the whole idea for the Palm was SIMPLICITY. I think they'd honestly make more money if they just refined those old models, made them smaller and added mini-USB ports for HID keyboards and connectivity. The'd be selling twice as many palms, and the stable platform would finally give corporate customers time to evaluate and migrate to the Palm (right now they can't because the meaning of 'Palm' keeps changing, hardware and software). Here's an idea, LET PocketPC take the speed/features crown, make really high-quality reliable and simple Palms that people can pick up and USE. I'll bet they could put the whole DragonBall palm logic and memory onto one or two chips now, it would be beautiful.

About half the people I know who have Palms have the old ones and they SWEAR by them. I know people who have PalmIIIs that bought a second one, new, just to replace their current one when it dies.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[BenjyD]

There's always Palms like the m105 - $59 I think at the moment. 8meg memory, 20Mhz. Plenty fast enough for me.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[tcdk]

Kind of agree with you.

I've a palm Vx and the only reason that I use 7 of the 8mb it has, is that I've a 6½mb dictionary installed. I don't need anything that the new machines can give me. Lot's of the new features would be "nice" and "cool", but I don't need them.

What I really don't need is a gadget bigger or heavier than the Vx, as it's just at the limit of what you can have, relativly, unseen in a pant/shirt pocket.

But then again... I also have a mp3 player (MPIO) and a mobilephone (nokia 6210) and if i could get something that did everything that these gadgets do, but still keep the size of the Palm Vx...

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[iCEBaLM]

The'd be selling twice as many palms, and the stable platform would finally give corporate customers time to evaluate and migrate to the Palm (right now they can't because the meaning of 'Palm' keeps changing, hardware and software).

Actually you are wrong, the market is screaming for these new features which is why palm is implimenting them.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[imadork]

I agree with you, I think Simplicity should be a priority when looking at these things. But when I recently went around looking at a replacement for my venerable Palm V (2mb was getting kind of cozy), I was amazed at how bloated a lot of these PIM's had become.

The Sony Clie's had way too much eye candy for my tastes. It also uses those infernal Memory Sticks for expansion. The Pocket PC's were simply too bloated also. (I have no need to drive a display for a Powerpoint Presentation from my handheld...) And I was suprised to see a keyboard and no graffiti area on the higher-end Tungstens. Does anyone actually use those tiny keyboards?

The only conclusion that I can come to is that the ideal PIM should be simple, but the best-selling PIM will have lots of unnecessary bells and whistles, because that's what the sheeple want.

Ultimately, I ended up getting a Tungsten T last week (for a song, since resellers were clearing them out last week -- with Palm and Amazon rebates, the final price is $220.) Compared with 2MB, 16MB is plenty! and Bluetooth simply rocks. I think that Bluetooth alone is worth the difference in the price I paid for this model compared to the Palms in the $100-$200 range.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[jht]

I'm on my fourth Palm since the early days, a Tungsten T (My previous ones were a Pilot 5000, a Palm III, and a Vx). My wife has an M100. I've also owned and used several other handhelds over the years - at various points I've had a Newton, an iPaq, a Jornada (but that one came free with an HP 4000 switch - I gave it away to one of my staff), and a Zaurus 5500. I still have and use the Zaurus, which stays in my briefcase with an Ethernet card and a wireless card. But I never really thought of the Zaurus as an organizer or even as a Palm competitor. The Zaurus is more like a laptop substitute.

Thinking of these different systems makes me speculate on what an organizer should have for a feature set. I basically see three good categories that handhelds can go after, with this for basic feature sets:

Basic/Economy - first off, a black & white (or at most, 4-bit) screen. It should also have a reasonably speedy processor, rugged design, small size, and it only needs minimal expansion, if any. It needs 8-16MB of RAM if it's a Palm (and Palms come closest to this), and ideally it should have user-replaceable batteries that could be charged when in the cradle, like if you used NiMh AAA batteries instead of alkaline. Standard Grafitti should be good enough for HWR. The battery life needs to be good enough that you could use it heavily for a few days on the road without draining it, and with light use it should last a month or more - like the original Palms did. The cost for one of these should be $150 or less - $199 at the very most.

The midrange handheld can be a little bigger in form factor. Add a color screen, faster processor, and some sort of internal expansion - probably an SD slot. A little less battery life is an acceptable trade-off here. It also should have 32-64MB of RAM - less if it's a Palm and more if it's running CE or Linux. The docking connector on one of these should be able to serve as a USB port to allow for some peripherals to be taken advantage of. At the higher end of this range, Bluetooth and/or 802.11 could make an appearance. Handhelds in this range could cost as much as $400. I think this is the logical ending point for the PalmOS as we currently know it.

Finally, at the high end you get handhelds that are more like little laptops. Slightly bigger screens, at least able to do a resolution like 600x400. A fold-out keyboard is a must, as is wireless networking. It needs at least two expansion slots - some combo of SD and/or CF. Processor power should be equivalent to a decent desktop from a few years ago. It'll run either CE or Linux, and be able to execute software from flash. Battery life should be at least 6 hours of heavy use, untethered - 8 would be better because it represents the mythical "full workday" charge. Size isn't that important, nor is weight. Heck, these could be the size of a Newton 2100 for all it matters. They'll never go in a pocket anyways. And the price for one of them is whatever the market will bear. Only a handful of wealthy geeks will buy them as individuals - most of them will go to big companies who use them as laptop substitutes.

The only problem with those three market models is that the low-end handhelds will sell to the point of market saturation and that's pretty much the end of it. There's not going to be much of a compelling reason to upgrade a nice, solid, cheap handheld that's rugged enough to not break every year. Ergo, no significant growth. Heck, look at what processor stagnation helped do to Apple in the desktop market! Without compellingly "mo-betta-fasta" Macs to go to, a lot of the upgrade/replacement market dried up for quite awhile. It really has cost them in the high-margin Pro desktop line. Palm would get hit much the same way playing in the entry level space. So I think they have to focus elsewhere - and the midrange is a better target for most of their energy.

That said, I love the KISS principle when it comes to a handheld - it's what first attracted me to Palm, and what's driven me to own several of them. I just don't think that alone is enough for Palm, but it is a key advantage they have against the other players and one they should exploit better.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[Chanc_Gorkon]

I agree with others in this thread that marketing is screaming for features. Palm needs to beef up their offering so it can compete with Pocket PC. WM 2003 is right up there with Windows XP as a decent OS. Sure, there are bugs. Sure, it's a bit bloated but hey it's an accomplishment! Something that approaches the usability of Windows XP and a compact .NET framework that all fits in 32 MB of ROM. Pretty cool if you ask me! If all you want is an organizer, then you could try a Royal Linea or one of the organizer only sharp units. They are dirt cheap and available compared to other suggestions like the Helios and Agenda VR3. Granted....these organizer only ones aren't without their issues. I had a older lady friend that her hubby gave her the sharp unit (not the zaurus) and it was pretty cool.....5 months later, it kept erasing her data and she had not synced it at all with her desktop. I think the organizer only ones should put a SD slot in and include a 8 MB SD card for backing up. Some folks don't want to hook it to their computer. If you think you ever want to do something else, better go with Palm or or PPC. The simple models are still out there. I see Visor Deluxes and some of their cousins in lots of place. I saw Compusa had refurbed Visor Platinums for 99 bucks! If you scope the Walmart Electronics Dept. Clearance rack, you sometimes can find Visors, or if not visors, you can find memory backup springboards or even the Magellan GPS module. There are older devices (new or refurbed) still on the market because Palm started to lose to Pocket PC because Pocket PC was doing lots more and at a equivalant price when the Axim came out. Palm and Handspring both tried flooding the market(which is why you still see these units) with KISS Handhelds, but the market was busy being dazzled by Sony and the PPC OEMs. KISS handhelds are for grandmas!

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[Anonymous Coward]

You may like the Treo 600. It will play MP3s, is a cellphone and it is pretty small.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[mobets]

Yeah, but it's sreen is smaller, and it looks fruity. :)

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[BenjyD]

Yes, the screen size is the one annoying thing, but for the price it's pretty good still. And they look much better if you replace the case with a metallic-grey one.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[MarcQuadra]

But the screens are tiny! I like the Handspring Visor Deluxe-sized screen.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[.com b4 .storm]

Now they've got too many faetures and extras, except for the zire, which feels very cheap and breakable to me (not to mention the TINY screen).

I don't know about the original Zire, since I've never used one. But I own a Zire 71 ($300), which is a beautiful little machine. It has a solid feel to the case, a gorgeous display (better than a lot of $400-600 handhelds I compared it to in-store), a built-in digital camera for simple picture taking, MP3 playback, and video playback. It also has the trademark "K.I.S.S. Palm" feel. My only gripe about it is the limited built-in memory (16MB), which requires you to buy an SD card to truly take advantage of its multimedia features.

Palm has made some really crappy handhelds over the last couple of years, but I think they finally smartened up and know where they are going now. The Tungsten line represents the exact opposite of K.I.S.S., whereas the Zire series represents the "pick up and use" philosophy that you so desire. In fact, the Zire 71 seems to me a lot like the approach Apple tends to take - beautiful hardware with a clean, stable OS and a nice feature set.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[skt]

I agree about simplicity being the most important feature, but if you have ever seen a Tungsten T.. you would know it is one of the more simple PDAs you can buy right now that doesn't look like a cheap toy. In fact, I would say it has better usability than my old Palm IIIxe with its superior display (higher resolution, color, and fonts), collapsable panel to hide the graffiti area, and size.

It does have some features that may seem unnecessary to most people such as bluetooth, voice recording, and a CD filled with third-party apps.. but the important thing is that these features do NOT increase the overall complexity of the interface. Unlike Sony handhelds that have buttons all over the place, Palm has only the necessary, core function buttons (power, address book, to-do list, memo, calendar, maybe a hold button.. can't remember) that have been standard on PalmOS devices for many years.

Of course, all of those features that sit there unused increase the cost of the unit :( I think the design and interface of the Tungsten T is great for people like myself that are confused by lots of extra buttons and features. If only it were not $300.00..

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[MarcQuadra]

Alright, maybe I'm a fool, but if you gave me two Palm units, one with color and one greyscale, I'd get the greyscale unit. I have no use for color, I think it looks stupid on handhelds. If you gave me a choice of CPUs, I'd pick the DragonBall over the ARM because it'll give me better battery life. If you asked if I wanted 32MB RAM or 8MB RAM, I'd go with 8, because I've never used more than 512K and I want better battery life.

I guess what I want is a Handspring Visor Deluxe.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[skt]

Color screens are subjective I think.. I may just be falling into learned helplessness because good, greyscale palms are no longer available. I do personally like the color Tungsten T screen (apparently the T2 is better), but obviously have never seen a greyscale one.

I read a paper once that said that men in particular are confused by color, advertisers have picked up on this and it is apprently the reason behind a lot of the black and white beer commercials that used to be shown on TV (Miller, I think). I have also noticed that while Apple commercials are not black and white, they tend to use very few colors with extremely simple (usually white) backgrounds. It might be interesting to see them offer that as an option again, I would probably be interested in it too on the modern PDAs.

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[twalk]

Basic/Economy - ...

A lot of these are availible for less than $100. The original Zire only has 2M, but it's now less than $80 most places. M100/105/125 and the visors are all less than $100.

The midrange handheld ...

TT, TT2, Zire 71, several sonys. This also is pretty well covered already.

Finally, at the high end ...

Don't look for PPC or Palm here if you want those kind of features. Linux is also out. Look for the tablet version of WinXP. Several companies are working on these right now. (Several were suppose to have already shipped...) I think that most of these will go to companies that will promptly dump all their PPC PDAs. (Why run a substitute WinOS, when you can run the real thing?)

Re:I miss the K.I.S.S. Palms

[NDPTAL85]

Grafitti sucks to put it simply. The softare was never really upgraded or enhanced to learn from the user. So most folks get frustrated with it and use the popup keyboard instead. Well that pretty much sucks too. So now most PDA's will be moving toward the physical keyboards which made the blackberry so popular.

Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[tcdk]

Anybody know if it's possible to get it to syncronize with the desktop over the bluetooth connection?

A bit slow, but if you just want to update a few minor things it would be great (and it would save you a cradle, if you do it with secondary computers).

Re:Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[gl4ss]

from the site:
*
BUILT-IN BLUETOOTH
It's wireless connectivity when you need it. Access email and surf the Web when you team your handheld with a compatible Bluetooth mobile phone (ISP required, not included). Perform a wireless Hotsync® operation with your Bluetooth-enabled desktop, or wirelessly share data with colleagues that have compatible handhelds.
*

bt is really handy for such things..

Re:Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[tcdk]

I just had a look around and there seems to be plenty of different bluetooth adapters availible, both for pci, usb and PCMCIA. Starts at around 50/us$.

Couldn't find a card or basestation with both 802.11b(/g) and bluetooth though.

It does seems to be possible to connect to linux through bluetooth.

Re:Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, it's pretty straight forward.
I sync my Tung-T with my PC in the office using the cradle, then occasionally sync with my home PC using bluetooth (just for an extra backup, really).

I bought one of those little USB Bluetooth gadgets, installed it on the PC. The BT-software lets you map a virtual serial port to the Bluetooth interface. You just configure the PC's hotsync software to listen on that.

The Palm is configured to use the BT connection, but when it's sitting on the cradle, and you press the cradle hot-sync button, it uses the cradle automatically.

Re:Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[panurge]

The AC post is right but I'm reinforcing it because I have points.

Bluetooth works just fine and the Bluetake dongle works perfectly. I have the cradle on the desk machine and the dongle on the notebook, no problems. If you need longest battery life remember to turn off bluetooth when not in use.

Only catch is, the Tungsten will not work with my crappy company Nokia phone, whose Bluetooth is crippled.

Re:Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[73939133]

Bluetooth synchronization works fine.

BT support in Windows is pretty awful--hard to install, hard to configure, and some USB dongles don't work. But once you find a USB dongle that does work (I'm using a blue-gene.com dongle), hotsync over Bluetooth works like a charm.

BT support in OS X looked more limited but claims to support hotsyncing and appeared easier to install.

Since BT emulates serial lines, you should also be able to hotsync with Linux over BT, but I haven't tried that since it requires a more recent kernel.

Re:Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[gl4ss]

i recommend one of the cheap usb bt-dongles, though try to find out beforehand if the chip in it works in linux(afaik almost all work but i'm not sure). i got an a-link that i use with windows for talking to my nokia 3650(transferring progs, clips and pics), the a-link cost ~47euros or so. there's not much point in buying the more expensive one's unless you want the sometime called class1 dongles that have more range, though obviously you would need another class1 devices to take advantage of it.

Re:Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[rekoil]

I can sync my Palm T|T over Bluetooth with my Mac running 10.2 trouble-free, although it appears to take substantially longer than syncing over the USB cradle.

Another neat trick is to configure the Palm to run PPP over the Bluetooth link allowing TCP/IP communication between the Mac and the Palm (and via NAT, to the rest of the internet).

Re:Syncronizing with desktop/bluetooth

[stickyc]

Yes, it is possible to sync a Palm to the desktop via BlueTooth (both on the PC and Mac). I've done both many times. Caveat: I also ended up with a lot of duplicate addressbook entries when iSyncing everything on the Mac. One of the devices I sync to doesn't support repeating appointments or no-time events (birthdays) - I'm pretty sure it's either the iPod or the t68.

PC Instructions
Mac instructions (including t68 sync instructions)

TOP TEN SLASHDOT ARTICLES :)

[laetus]

Sometimes you don't even need to read the daily stuff. My suggestions for the top 10 daily Slashdot articles:

1) Microsoft warns of a new security flaw.
2) RIAA, et. al. are fawking us bad.
3) Apple's doing something innovative.
4) New Linux release,driver,bundle,etc. announced.
5) Neat new digital device arrives. Runs Linux.
6) Palm offers a new Palm.
7) New video/audio format/program released.
8) Someone announces a game for Linux.
9) Obligatory offbeat science topic of the day.
10) SPAM is leading to the apocalypse.

Any other top ten lists? :)

Re:TOP TEN SLASHDOT ARTICLES :)

[vano2001]

Why do you think normal people stay away from nerds then, eh?

Re:TOP TEN SLASHDOT ARTICLES :)

[perly-king-69]

SCO!
You forgot the obligatory SCO-bashing article.

Re:TOP TEN SLASHDOT ARTICLES :)

[phalse phace]

the Mozilla release news. (betas, alphas, etc...)

Re:TOP TEN SLASHDOT ARTICLES :)

[sean.peters]

Geez, you blew it... you didn't even MENTION SCO!

Sean

...the Zaurus

[Gothmolly]

So its almost as cool as a Zaurus 5500? Wow, keep going Palm, you'll get there.

Audio via bluetooth?

[sam7557797]

Apparently listening to music via my bluetooth headset is not an option. I love using it for my mobile phone. When am I going to get to use it for my PDA?

Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[NaveWeiss]

Tungsten comes with the Palm Web Browser, and you know what's stupid in it? That it requires a *beep*ing proprietary proxy to work!

Yes. The palm itself is not powerful enough to resize the images and render the documents, so they use a mandatory proxy that does the job. I don't know how fast it is, but it's really annoying that the palm can't connect directly.

I hate the concept so much because:

1. AvantGo has to do the same thing, and their proxy is overloaded and many times you must reload. I don't know if the palm thing is different.
2. What if Palm dies? Their proxy will die too and that will render the browser useless.

How do I know that it uses a proxy? If you look at the palm web browser page, you'll see on the bottom of the page that they mention that ports 8827 and 8775 must be open. I can't check if this thing would work without a proxy, because their browser won't work with earlier palms.

I should mention the Palm (III and above?) can do normal TCP/IP as long as you use a modem and not the proprietary web-only palm.NET service (I think it can even listen too but I doubt it can run servers), and there are a couple of palm browsers that access web servers directly without a proxy, like the free EudoraWeb and Xiino. But nobody seems to support them anymore and they got problems: EudoraWeb is very nice but can't load docs bigger than 21k, and Xiino is even nicer than EudoraWeb but it got a very annoying bug with radio buttons (when there are many radio buttons, it makes some of them selected).

I couldn't find any usable browser for palm which doesn't have the problems I listed above, even that I looked a lot. If anyone can recommend me one I'd be very glad, but till then I am really disappointed and frustrated at Palm. I bet that the browsing in the competitors (PocketPC/Zaurus) is much better.

Re:Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[netringer]

Tungsten comes with the Palm Web Browser, and you know what's stupid in it? That it requires a *beep*ing proprietary proxy to work!

Whine, whine....The free Eudora web browser and the Blazer browser that was bundled with my Handspring Treo 90 work directly over TCP/IP. Blazer renders all of the graphics on the web page.

I aim my Treo's IR port at the one on my Nokia cell phone with built-in 9600bps modem and get online with no problem. I prefer not getting the images so I can browse faster.

The biggest problem is "clever" webmasters who put in code that checks your browser and refuses to show you any web content if it doesn't recognize it. Morons. Let ME decide if the content is usable.

Re:Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[NaveWeiss]

Didn't you read that EudoraWeb can't show docs bigger than 21k?
I tried Blazer too. It just didn't work.. the app run but it never loaded any documents.

Re:Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[stickyc]

1. AvantGo has to do the same thing, and their proxy is overloaded and many times you must reload. I don't know if the palm thing is different.
2. What if Palm dies? Their proxy will die too and that will render the browser useless.

1. I use the Tungsten browser daily and have never had any issues with the proxy being choked.
2. Palm still supports proxy required for the Palm VII PQA applications, the device for which has been discontinued for years (the PQA apps wont even run on the newer devices). I find it hard to believe that in the unlikely event of palm going completely under, someone wouldn't step up and create a workaround, thus being a hero to the hundred(s) of thousands of users that would be stranded by this. Or that, by then, someone would not have released a better proxy-less browser.

Re:Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[steveha]

Blazer uses a proxy server. Handspring says so.

Your wider point, that there are choices in the Palm market, is spot-on. If Palm were to die and take their proxy with them, you would be able to get some other browser for your palm.

steveha

Re:Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[NaveWeiss]

Or that, by then, someone would not have released a better proxy-less browser.

So if that happens, or if Palm loses their DNS like what happened to Microsoft some time ago, what will my employer say to the customers? "I'm sorry, but our work is suspended because the company that made the palm is dead"?

I want to depend on as less factors as possible - especially when it's someone who's not receiving money from me, but just doing me a "favour".

Re:Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[NaveWeiss]

... you would be able to get some other browser for your palm

But that's the problem. There are hardly any other browsers, and none of them does the job. Seems that nobody wants to develop a palm browser either.

Re:Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[yomegaman]

My Kyocera 7135 came with a program called EIS, which sounds like it does what you want. It doesn't use a proxy, and it can show you pages either wrapped horizontally to the screen width or with regular formatting where you might have to scroll to see the full width. I think the retail version goes by the name 'iPanel'.

FWIW, I think the reason some of them use proxies is not to save CPU power but rather to save bandwidth. That way all the unrenderable HTML can be stripped out beforehand, and the pictures can be scaled and reduced in color depth so they can be sent quicker.

Re:Palm and the sucky web browsing.

[Anonymous Coward]

BUT I NEED A GIRLFRIEND!
Do you know of a better way to get one? Because I don't!!!!

No WiFi=Useless PDA junk

[HanzoSan]

If theres no WiFi, what good is a PDA? I want to be able to get online, for free.

Re:No WiFi=Useless PDA junk

[Vagary]

I agree. Consumer-grade palmtops are way behind in terms of connectivity.

Approximately a year ago, I wanted to replace my IIIe but everybody was like "wait for Bluetooth, it's just around the corner and it'll make you cream your pants". Well, now it turns out that Bluetooth will be useful around the same time Denmark becomes a superpower. Now I'm waiting for WiFi.

WTF? You'd think everyone in the IT business would have heard of Metcalfe's Law by now, but obviously not. It's not about the memory size or the camera on top, it's about connectivity! I'm tired of stupid gadgets and dongles and proprietary web browsers.

There is no task but surfing, and Tim is its prophet.

Re:No WiFi=Useless PDA junk

[pHDNgell]

Bluetooth will be useful around the same time Denmark becomes a superpower.

It's pretty useful to me. I use it to check my mail (IMAP) on the go, web browse, sync my clock (I like ntp on everything), sync my palm, sync my phone, remote control my desktop, provide a better SMS interface than what my phone provides, and probably more stuff I'm too tired to think of right now.

Re:No WiFi=Useless PDA junk

[Kaimelar]

If theres no WiFi, what good is a PDA? I want to be able to get online, for free.

Offhand, I would say keeping a calendar, address book, to-do lists, note-taking, e-books, calculator, playing Audible.com content, viewing street maps, playing chess . . . you get the idea.

And besides, what are you complaining about? If you want a Palm w/ Wifi, go get a Tungsten|C.

Or a PocketPC w/ WiFi.

Or an SDIO or CF WiFi card.

Different people have different needs in a PDA. You (and I, actually) want WiFi in a handheld. Other people don't. The new Tungsten|T2 is targeted at the latter.

Well, enjoy the T2 Now...

[vudufixit]

'cuz we all know T3 won't be nearly as good.

Re:Well, enjoy the T2 Now...

[scrap104]

hope the TX model is sexy looking

Abandoned palm

[tf23]

About a month ago I recieved my first PocketPC (a Dell Axim). I started, many years ago, w/ a Pilot 1000, I believe it was. Then other palms, then a III, IIIx. Then a Samsung i300 phone that had the Palm built in.

While I do love the phone w/ the palm built in, the PocketPC is so much more useful then the palms are (excluding, obviously, the bundled phone and palms).

There's more ram. I can throw documents on them. It's wireless. I can now surf the web on the shitter, in boring meetings. There's *room* on the thing to store just about anything I want.

I never had that with Palm. It was always a meager amount of space, no headphone jack, no color, no wireless, no way to add extra storage space (cf/sd). I couldn't just throw an excel doc on the thing and it just worked. Syncing w/ Exchange (at work, ugh) was never a process that I had 100% confidence in.

I'm not a big MS fan, but I highly doubt I'll ever go back to using the Palm products anytime soon. Which is sad, because for years I was one of their biggest fans. That is, until their innovation practically stopped. Now they've bought Handspring... kinda Microsoftian don't you think? Someone's got a good idea... let's buy them!!

Anyway, I'm quite happy with the PocketPC. I dither down video clips to it's size with MS's Movie app, I've got mp3's on it too. Wireless surfing just works.

Now if only the Axim had the 802.11b/g built into it, and was a bit thinner and lighter...

Re:Abandoned palm

[Anonymous Coward]

It's wireless. I can now surf the web on the shitter, in boring meetings.

I wouldn't call any meeting I attend on the shitter boring.

Re:Abandoned palm

[Anonymous Coward]

Try the Tungsten C, 64MB, Wi-Fi, Color, 320x320 Transflective screen, & keyboard.

It's got it all.

Re:Abandoned palm

[SomeOtherGuy]

You are right. PPC just walks all over palm right now. (Same goes for the Sharp Linux based machines). In my opinion the PPC or Zaurus is the best option if you want "laptop type" functionality in a small form factor. If all you need is a PIM type device then the Palms are just fine.

Re:Abandoned palm

[NDPTAL85]

No he's not right. You can do all the things he said with devices Palm sells NOW. The problem is he is comparing old Palm products with current PPC products. Thats hardly fair.

Outdated already

[CrackedButter]

The T2 features a Texas Instruments 144MHz OMAP 1510 ARM processor, 32MB SDRAM (29.5 available)

No wonder Skynet and the robots lost to John Conner and the humans after judgement day.

Re:Outdated already

[AgentSmith1000]

Do not worry. We at the Matrix are trying to make a hostile takeover of Skynet, and make some cyborgs with real some real specifications: 8088 processor 512k RAM.

Of course, we had to give each cyborg an equivalent 20 Terabyte storage capacity. Budget is tight in the Matrix, so each cyborg looks and runs like a truck.

Simplicity is over rated

[NDPTAL85]

Why don't you try actually using that little handheld computer you have for more than just the basic 4 PIM apps?

First of all I'd love to have more than 4 buttons. Right now I have to use an app called Button Launch (its free people) that lets me assign more than 1 app per button. (counting what the buttons are already assigned to there's three apps to a button).

I have a Kyocera 7135 Smartphone. It runs Palm OS 4.1 and has 16MB of RAM. It also has a SD Card slot, 3G speed capability and a built in MP3 Player with a stereo headset. My AvantGo app alone has 8MB worth of channels (thats around 50 channels folks).

Not to mention I have real estate software to synch with my state's MLS systems, SnapperMail for on the go email, iSilo for reading ebooks at my leisure, PocketQuicken that synchs to Quicken Deluxe on the desktop so I can do away with paper checkbooks, Teal Script so grafitti can learn from me and not the other way around, Tipper so I can calculate the exact tips at restaraunts, upIR for IRC on the go, SplashID for keeping all my bank account, credit card account, web logins, and other sensitive data all in one encrypted place.

My PDA is more than just a glorified addressbook/datebook/todolist/memopad. Its a real friggin handheld computer. AND it does it all in 33Mhz. I can't wait to see what can be done when Smartphones get 400Mhz CPU's like the standalone PDA's already have.

www.kyocerasmartphone.com

I could never be satisified with the earlier models.

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[Vagary]

Tipper so I can calculate the exact tips at restaraunts...

You need a special app to calculate the tip? What, does it use a little camera to estimate the waiter's service level? On my Palm there's this really cool app called a calculator, it can calculate tips and tax!

What kind of loser leaves a $5.23 tip, anyway? My brain can round-off, can Tipper? (With a Master's in Psyc, I'd hope so, but you never know...)

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[MarcQuadra]

So you're in the 'it should do everything' camp. All MOST users want is those 4 features, email, maybe mp3 playback, basic audio recording, simple stuff. Palm should produce the 'killer tungstens' but should also produce a highly refined, durable, and STABLE (in the 'it won't change for years' sense) platform for us. The M-series is weak, they're flimsy and the screens are miniscule.

I was thinking that they could probably make a dragonball-based machine in a single-chip (that's CPU, RAM, and I/O logic on one chip), call it the Palm Refernce Platform 1, slap the chip into a super-thick plastic or hard rubber molding with a decent sized b+w LCD (color model as well). Standardize the I/O on a mini-USB port, and make an INTERNAL USB bay for handspring-like cards for wireless, backup, or whatever. They could sell it for $175, which would probably be a really good markup. Business would jump on if Palm would come out with something that they promised to stick to for more than a year, who wants to have 17 different breeds of palm running around the office, all with different OS software and hardware?

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[Planesdragon]

Palm should produce the 'killer tungstens' but should also produce a highly refined, durable, and STABLE (in the 'it won't change for years' sense) platform for us.

Zire 71 all the way, baby.

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[Farley Mullet]

How To Figure Out A Tip

1. Tip (at least) 15%. Servers get paid less than everyone else because it's assumed they'll be tipped. Tipping isn't optional.
2. Drop the rightmost digit of the bill, and move the decimal point one to the left. For example, $43.68 becomes $4.36. You now have 10% of the bill.
3. Take half of the 10% you got from the last step. This gives you 5% of the bill. Continuing the example, half of $4.36 is $2.18.
4. Now add the 10% and 5% together to get 15%. There's your tip, and it's that simple! Finishing off our example, $4.36+$2.18=$6.54. And if service was really good, or the server is hot, you can always tip more

Or, if you live somewhere with 15% tax, you could always just tip the tax.

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[NDPTAL85]

If my bill isn't rounded off why should the tip be?

Yes I could use the PalmOS's built in calculator to calculate the tip but why do that if the Tipper app makes it so much easier? I enter the price of the bill, select the percentage I want to tip at (15%, 20%..etc) and hit enter and there's the exact tip the waiter should get.

The percentage is used to represent the waiters service. If the service is below average they get a lower percentage. Great service gets a 25% tip from me. Besides I suck at math, don't need to be good at math, and machines rock at math, machines are built to do work for humans so WHY NOT USE IT?

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[Patrick]

All MOST users want is those 4 features, email, maybe mp3 playback, basic audio recording, simple stuff.

You're wandering off toward the "everyone uses only 20% of Bloatedsoft's features" fallacy. That may be so, but everyone's 20% is different. You yourself demonstrate that by throwing a few extra features into the mix: email, MP3, and voice memo. I consider those things useless, but I highly value my PDA's eBook reader, mapping software, KeyRing, and portable spreadsheet. Every feature Palm (or in my case Sony) includes has some devoted followers, to be sure.

The Palm platform has an excellent approach from a software perspective: a general-purpose CPU, a well-documented API, and backwards compatibility. You can install any app you find useful and leave the rest off. Some of the apps that I find useful require more CPU power, RAM, or screen colors than the Palm III, which is why I'm quite glad to have upgraded.

The hardware perspective (changing the damn connectors with each new generation) is another story.

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[Anonymous Coward]

dude. you are a fucking dumbass. i bet you didn't even go to mit like i did.

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[don.g]

FWIW, the Tipping isn't optional only applies in countries where tipping is considered the norm. Not living in one of those countries, I've never understood why - would someone care to explain?

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[NDPTAL85]

MIT produces people who cannot capitalize the first letter in the beginning of a sentence and use profanity needlessly?

Oy vey!

Re:Simplicity is over rated

[Farley Mullet]

Well, I certainly don't claim to know the social history of tipping, and how it became entrenched, but in my province (Ontario, Canada), tipping is sufficiently institutionalized that the minimum wage for servers is less than 90% of the regular minimum wage (both of which have been frozen for over 8 years, by the way), and that things like workers' compensation and income tax presume that servers make a certain amount in tips. And I suppose that's why I don't think it's optional.

How I don't miss them.

[NaveWeiss]

I've got a Palm III at home and it drains my NiCad AAAA batteries pretty quick. I would have gladly used NiMH batteries instead but I can't find NiMH batteries in that size.

Re:How I don't miss them.

[bjb]

I've got a Palm III at home and it drains my NiCad AAAA batteries pretty quick. I would have gladly used NiMH batteries instead but I can't find NiMH batteries in that size.

Don't use NiCad batteries then. Just use regular alkaline. I regularly get 34 days +/- a few on alkaline AAA batteries, and I sync at least once a day (couple hundred records in each PIM app) and use a Palm folding keyboard.

Re:How I don't miss them.

[jandrese]

Yeah, those AAAA batteries are pretty hard to find. I had no trouble getting AAA NiMH batteries though. Target, K-Mart, Wal-Mart, Best Buy, CompUSA, and Circut City are the places that I know carry them around here. I'm sure there are others. Rayovac makes some nice ones . I'd dump the NiCads though, they have sucked since day 1.

Re:How I don't miss them.

[NaveWeiss]

(Ooops, should have written "AAA")
Well, my palm drained those pretty quick, too. Just 2 days and they were dead. I guess I've got a bad unit.

Re:How I don't miss them.

[darc]

Check that your serial port isn't open 24/7 because of some app gone mad.. check with superutility, I think. Serial drains the battery, but not THAT fast... you might have a bad unit.

Re:How I don't miss them.

[NaveWeiss]

The problem continued even after I erased all the memory. But I'll check. Thanks.

Re:How I don't miss them.

[bjb]

Are you leaving the device in your cradle? If that is the case, then you're leaving the serial port open by doing that. The older Palm devices would drain slowly if the (I believe) DTR line was high, and usually in the older Palm cradles, the DTR line was always high when connected to a serial port. The solution was to either cut the DTR line in the cradle or cut it somewhere outside of the cradle (dongle or something).

I don't have the documentation on hand, but should be easy enough to find on the web. Note that I ran my Palm III on a cradle that had the DTR cut for years, and I never had any synchronization problems.

Re:How I don't miss them.

[NaveWeiss]

Hmm.. maybe I should try to take the palm out of the cradle. I'll try that. Thanks.

144 Mhz?

[Ummite]

In what world do they work? 144 Mhz is not enough to run any .NET application, web services, and real time xml parsing. So, why bother buy one of those?

Re:144 Mhz?

[Anonymous Coward]

The T|2 caches all user input so it doesn't seem so slow. For instance, when you click the appliation button, the Apps.XML file doesn't need to be parsed in real-time by Kernel.NET, because it's already been cached.

The downside is that the cache is refreshed every day at 10am and it takes about 4 hours during which the machine is suspended to user input.

Re:144 Mhz?

[Anonymous Coward]

sg

Re:But can it...

[NaveWeiss]

Maybe Minix, but not linux.
Besides, it takes years to update the flash rom with a new OS, so it'll make switching between linux and palmOS tedious.

Recent?

[gyrojoe]

From the press release:

The key to this memory expansion was Palm Solutions Group's recent technology breakthrough, which extends the random-access memory (RAM) capacity of Palm Powered handhelds from 16MB to 128MB.

This can't be that recent, the Tungsten C has been out for some time and has 64 MB (51 Available) of memory built-in.

Re:But can it...

[The Fanta Menace]

...who cares?

I care. Writing apps for PalmOS is a complete bitch. Its API is nasty and the whole development process is awful. I'd much rather develop and test apps on a big machine running the same OS, and then just cross compile the final product for the device before installing it.

That's the best you can come up with?

[WIAKywbfatw]

Seriously, you've not been here much recently have you?

Number 1 on the list should be "SCO claims to own the world's code, everyone else laughs in their face". How in hell did you miss that one?

And Number 8 on your list must be a private joke - Linux releases of games are as frequent as blue moons. Perhaps they're making plenty of noise over at games.slashdot.org but they sure aren't making waves on the front page.

Also, I don't know where it would appear on your list but you forgot the "DCMA is evil, government should work for us not big corporations"-type articles. Or am I just imagining all these stories about Lexmark printers, etc? And, while we're at it why not add the "Yet another stupid software patent granted" story? That's a regular favourite too.

Add SCO, bump the Linux games, add DCMA and patents and call it a dozen.

Or, if you think that DCMA comes under "RIAA, et. al. are fawking us bad", (although I don't see how), just call your list the Big Ten.*

(*Yes, I do know how to count, this is a sports joke. If you're not familiar with the Big Ten, see how it works go to http://www.bigten.org/.)

I'm still using my Sony Clie OEG-S300

[Wonderkid]

Because it's ultra reliable, the batteries last weeks, it does the key orgnisational tasks I require, it incldues an 8Meg Memory Stick for backing up (I only use 250k so far!), it's well made and most importantly, it doesn't pretend to be a multimedia machine. How complicated is it to download video to a Palm T2 and how much can you get in 32Meg? I will by a multimedia PDA when, like the iPod - it has a 30 gig hard drive. And built in 802.11g. Sony's new Clie 50 still lacks the RAM, but it accepts Memory Stick Pro, so one could watch hours of video! Now that is innovation!

Expansions

[Anonymous Coward]

Palms have always had expansion slots. Just like your mom.

about the memory restrictions...

[sirstrongbad]

several of you had mentioned that the tungsten t2 only had 32 MB of ram. if that's not enough for you, check out the tungsten c. i picked one of these bad boys up a couple weeks ago and it has 64 MB onboard memory. it also sports a 400 MHz xscale processor. it doesn't have bluetooth, though, which kind of stinks. but it does have 802.11b wifi included! as for web browsing with the palm...it renders websites quite well. i had owned an iPaq 5455 for 5 months and hated how slowly the browser reacted compared to the speed of the tungsten c. pages loaded and can be scrolled through much faster on the palm.

yep, kind of

[RMH101]

get yourself a sony-ericsson P800. symbian OS, full outlook synch, opera browser, symbian OS, camera etc etc. it's a little chunky for a phone, but not much...

Re:yep, kind of

[Nogami_Saeko]

It's much smaller when you hold it than it appears when people see photos of it. I've had one for a couple months now, and I could never imagine going back to a seperate phone or PDA. It's not perfect, but it's close.

My only P800 gripes:

- 12 bit colour screen
- low res camera, fairly poor lens (webcam quality)

Other than that, it's great. Both of those gripes are addressed in the new P810 which may be released by next year.

Any company making PDA-style devices without having a GSM phone in it has missed the boat IMHO.

N.

Re:yep, kind of

[dezoe]

Love mine. Just wish it had wifi... :-(

Re:yep, kind of

[RMH101]

...and i'm fvcked if i can get it talking to my 2k box via BT...

You forgot a couple...

[Anonymous Coward]

11) Yet another Mozilla release out

12) SCO threats someone

Palm needs to seriously cut prices

[Cereal Box]

It came time for me to upgrade my Palm m130 and I decided on a PocketPC. Why? It was an issue of price and features. The cheapest Palm I would consider buying is the Zire 71 at $300. It didn't really seem to make any sense to buy it because the PocketPCs offered a lot more at lower prices. I decided on a PocketPC that cost $250 and came with 64MB RAM (36MB usable vs. Zire's 13MB usable) and a 300Mhz ARM processor (vs. 144Mhz ARM for the Zire). Seems pretty clear to me who's offering the better deal.

Yes, I know the PocketPC is Microsoft and therefore "evil", but I kinda like the thing. You can do some really neat things with it. You can emulate Nintendo games at full speed with sound, play Doom at a pretty good speed, play a fantastic port of Simcity 2000, there's even a program that emulates an 8086 at about 25Mhz and allows you to run a LOT of DOS software (I managed to get older games like Eye of the Beholder and Dune 2 running), including all the old DOS tools I've missed over the years, like the Turbo C compiler! Running a full-blown C compiler in an emulated x86 on your PDA... now THAT is cool. There's also a lot of good languages/dev tools/utilities/games/etc. that have been ported to the PocketPC platform, due mostly, I suppose, to how easy it is to port regular Windows software over to the PDA.

I particularly like the PocketPC's directory structure for files vs. Palm's "you have no control over where files go" structure. When I put the PocketPC in the USB cradle I can browse the PDA's memory like a normal disk and the internet connection for the PDA tunnels through the USB connection and uses the computer's internet connection seamlessly. This in particular is one thing I hated about my old Palm. You couldn't use the Palm's USB link for the internet connection... instead you had to buy a serial link and set up your computer to accept incoming connections to do SLIP and whatnot provided your Palm didn't have WiFi capabilities (which mine didn't).

I'd probably go back to Palm IF they lowered their prices to be closer to what PocketPCs cost. I think they're a tad bit overpriced at the moment considering what you get.

Re:Palm needs to seriously cut prices

[Taurim]

With my zire 71, I can open a ppp connection through the USB cradle to my Linux box and it works perfectly.

You can have a good control of "where the files go", especially with a good launcher like ZLauncher and a SD/MMC memory card.

The Ti processor is maybe only clocked at 144 MHz and a lot of apps runs in 68k emulation but it makes a very responsive Palm ! Way faster than a friend's 400 MHz Dell Axim !

And most important feature of a Palm : I can use it with my desktop linux box !!!

Re:Palm needs to seriously cut prices

[pHDNgell]

Running a full-blown C compiler in an emulated x86 on your PDA... now THAT is cool.

I run a full-blown C compiler that's not emulated on my Tungsten. I also have a pascal compiler that was written using that C compiler. I tend to do my palm development in the scheme system I've got on it, though. Look around, though. There's python, a few C systems, smalltalk, etc...

There's also a lot of good languages/dev tools/utilities/games/etc.

Have you looked around at palm software? The last time I looked, there were too many to choose from. I'm a developer, so I dig that kinda thing. I've developed complete applications (GUI and all) directly on my palm that I used to use all the time (I don't use the one app I wrote anymore because I no longer need it).

Palm's "you have no control over where files go" structure.

What do you mean? My books are in a separate directory from my movies, from my mp3s, from my applications, etc...

When I put the PocketPC in the USB cradle I can browse the PDA's memory like a normal disk and the internet connection for the PDA tunnels through the USB connection and uses the computer's internet connection seamlessly.

I have to imagine my card reader is more efficient than this.

You couldn't use the Palm's USB link for the internet connection...

I'm pretty sure I've done this before, but I just do it over bluetooth lately. I only use the cradle for charging.

Re:Palm needs to seriously cut prices

[Cereal Box]

I run a full-blown C compiler that's not emulated on my Tungsten. I also have a pascal compiler that was written using that C compiler. I tend to do my palm development in the scheme system I've got on it, though. Look around, though. There's python, a few C systems, smalltalk, etc...

All those languages have PocketPC ports as well. The point I was making was that it's really neat to be able to run a particular C compiler (a DOS-based one), in addition to all those old DOS utilities on the PDA. Emulating a real PC on your PDA is pretty cool.

Have you looked around at palm software? The last time I looked, there were too many to choose from. I'm a developer, so I dig that kinda thing. I've developed complete applications (GUI and all) directly on my palm that I used to use all the time (I don't use the one app I wrote anymore because I no longer need it).

I'm well aware of the available Palm software, since I still own a Palm and use it occasionally. I'm saying that PocketPC has a lot of dev software and, when you look at the total picture, I found the PocketPC offerings to be a better deal overall.

What do you mean? My books are in a separate directory from my movies, from my mp3s, from my applications, etc...

On my m130 I could make categories but couldn't nest them. On the PocketPC, I can have directory structure just as I would on the PC. I like that. What I meant by "no control" was my experience with the Palm hotsync program. You basically just select files to upload and the Palm puts them wherever it feels like (sometimes games would go to the "Games" category, but mostly went to "Unfiled", etc.). What I like about the PocketPC is that if I have a file I want to send over I can use explorer to create a folder in the appropriate place on the PDA and drag the file over. That's nice. I wish I could do that with Palm.

I have to imagine my card reader is more efficient than this.

Of course, that costs additional money and it only lets you access the SD card. When I cradle the PPC everything is available directly, including the system's storage RAM, internal flash, and SD card. Again, a nice touch, and I wish I could do that with Palm.

I'm pretty sure I've done this before, but I just do it over bluetooth lately. I only use the cradle for charging.

Couldn't do it with the m130, but perhaps the Zire will let you do it. Either way, I was quite happy when I found out that simply having the PPC in a cradle would allow the PPC to use the computer's internet connection with no extra configuration.

Re:Palm needs to seriously cut prices

[ldrolez]

> And most important feature of a Palm : I can use it with my desktop linux box !!!
And you have lots of open source software at www.palmopensource.com , and an onboard c compiler (OnboardC under GPL) !

Re:Palm needs to seriously cut prices

[ldrolez]

> You couldn't use the Palm's USB link for the internet connection...

Yes it works with my 2.4.20 ! You just have to launch pppd on /dev/ttyUSB[0|1].
I get more thant 100KB/s of http transfer rate via ppp via usb.

Handspring's attributes

[skvngrx]

What?

Palm bought Handspring to flesh out their core markets. Handspring had basically committed to being only a "convergence" pda company (the treo line had become their only moneymaker), and had spent a lot of time listening to both customers and providers.

The treo 600 is supposed to be the distillation of all this - hardware revisions were made to directly answer the requests of Sprint, et al. This is another thing - Handspring had very good relations with the providers - and a completely different set (Sprint, Cingular, Orange) than Palm (ATTW).

Notice that palm has never once tried to make an true phone/pda (the tungsten W only supports "handsfree" phone). My guess is, if anything, the tungsten W is short lived.

The tungsten C, on the other hand, with the fast processor, high res screen, keyboard, ram, and WLAN is another direction the market is going - notice all the PockPC models, the new Sony's, etc.

Handspring the brandname is probably quite short-lived. The treo line and the engineering behind it and in the future? A much better chance.

I'm still happy

[M3wThr33]

I got my Zire71 the week it came out in April. I love it still, and seeing more OS5 devices on the market will only help(Pardon the standard res Treo 600). I never thought I could do so much on a Palm without tying myself down to a PPC.

T3 already rumored

[Gemini]

Palm seems to be stepping up the pace of their model releases. The T3 is already rumored.

Landscape-able screen, and you can actually use the area underneath the slider. Pretty nifty.

For me, the T2 is too little of a improvement over the T to justify buying it. Plus, a forced conversion to Grafitti 2 embodies the concept of "suck".

Of course, by the time the T3 is out, the T4 will be rumored, complete with photos...

Not-so-well though out name

[Bjarke Roune]

atleast not in Denmark, where I live. In danish, "tung" means heavy and "sten" means rock. So this is the "heavy rock t2". Not exactly a handheld I'd like to own!

Re:Not-so-well though out name

[red_mug]

yes, and in german the chemical element tungsten is called wolfram, which in english means wolf and ram...
put that in your pocket!

Re:Not-so-well though out name

[thechink]

The english word tungsten comes from old norse and it literally means just that, heavy rock. Tungsten is also a metallic element and is sometimes called wolfram. It is very hard and has a high melting point. I'm sure Palm is using the name to imply that the new Palms are tough or indestructable.

Re:Not-so-well though out name

[trueger]

Well, that's how "tungsten" got its name after it was discovered in 1783, presumably because its ore was especially dense. Kinda like Palm's marketers...

Palm vs. RIM

[CuriousR]

maybe opening a can o' worms...

which is better in your *humble* opinions, Palm or Blackberry?

Please focus your comments on web-browsing and use of app's... extra-value placed on Mac user comments... ; )

A better name

[skvngrx]

How about the "Wolfram 2" then?

missing stuff in p800

[RMH101]

* no support for playlists at all with native player
* dodgy plastic lens on camera really limits things. 640x480's not that bad (i remember paying quite a bit for the first domestic digital cameras that did this and being reasonably happy) but a glass lens would really help
* dodgy new memory format - the memory stick duo. it's a sony, so maybe you can't expect an SD slot, but it'd be nice. the duo cards are *really* expensive
* provide a means of terminating running programs without third party software. why don't the apps have a "close" icon? this is plain dumb

there's probably a few more, but these are the main gripes. don't get me wrong, i love mine. make it a little bit slimmer and less plasticy and i'd be *really* happy

Tungsten...

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it have a Tungsten Plug for extra forgiveness? What I really need out of my palm is about 30 more yards of carry.

t2

[Bubba-T]

should have called it a t3 and did a terminator tie in.

Bill Gates is buying 1100

[ConfusedVorlon]

Bill Gates Foundation Buys 1100 TT2's for NYC Edu
Is this a tacit recognition by BG that PPC is an inferior product???

Pocket PC?

[cmay]

Sounds like an expensive, slow, low memory pocket pc. Please don't say this is a troll because it isn't. Why is Palm trying to make their devices into what pocket pc's already are? Why not focus on making cheaper/better projects? I understand that some people will want a high end palm device, and thats fine, but it seems like palm is really making a push to get back the high end market share from microsoft. Why would someone buy this device when they can get a Dell Axim for 199 bucks? I think palm would be wise to start selling $50 devices, or continue their push into making the palm OS run on other devices, like the watch that runs PalmOS. (Now THAT is cool!) Build more/better smart phones! Just my opinion.

SSL support

[majid]

An important feature PalmOS 5.2.x added over 5.0.x is SSL support in the OS and in the VersaMail 2.5 app. I have a Tungsten T and it cannot access the SSL-only POP3 server we have at work. The T2 should.

I don't think I will upgrade to the T2, however, probably to the new Sony Clie UX50 instead.

It's what I want

[steveha]

I have a Tungsten T and I love it. When the newer Palm devices came out, I said to myself, "I wish Palm would come out with a device just like the Tungsten T but with the new tranflective screen". Here's the T2, and it fits the bill.

Double the memory is nice, the transflective screen is great, and the rest is almost purely unchanged. That spells a winner in my book.

I'm nervous about Graffiti 2; I like Graffiti as it is. But Palm lost a lawsuit over Graffiti and they don't dare ship it in new models, so I don't blame them for the change, and perhaps Graffiti 2 will be a good thing anyway.

It also sounds like they have sweetened the software bundle, also a good thing.

Some posters have commented that this is "nothing new". I say it's exactly what I wanted. A Tungsten T is a sweet little PDA, and the T2 should be better still.

steveha

Tungsten C Web Browser is proxy-free

[edmundv]

The web browser that comes with the Palm Tungsten C, which by the way is called 'Web Browser', does not use a proxy. I guess that 400 MHz is fast enough for formatting web pages.

Re:Tungsten C Web Browser is proxy-free

[NaveWeiss]

Did you really check that? Did you go to someplace like www.whatismyip.com and verified that the IP belongs to your ISP and not to some unknown proxy server?

Re:Tungsten C Web Browser is proxy-free

[edmundv]

I just surfed over to www.whatismyip.com using my Tungsten C over WiFi, and indeed the IP address reported is my own personal IP address. So, no proxy involved.

Just for kicks, I also tried Handspring's Blazer browser which I know uses a proxy. It reports a very different IP address, just as you would expect.

Blazer is actually a more usable browser because it formats web pages vertically. Horizontal scrolling can drive you nuts pretty quickly.

Obiquitious Internet

[Vagary]

Using it while sitting on the couch right beside your desk isn't exactly a revolution. Once upon a time we believed that Bluetooth would provide Internet access in trains and coffee shops -- just like WiFi does now.

Bluetooth is a false idol. There is no networking but WiFi.

Re:Obiquitious Internet

[pHDNgell]

Using it while sitting on the couch right beside your desk isn't exactly a revolution. Once upon a time we believed that Bluetooth would provide Internet access in trains and coffee shops -- just like WiFi does now.

Nah, I use my powerbook on the couch. I use my palm when I'm in the airport, at a restaurant, in a meeting, or wherever else I might be without a computer but wanting to check my email or look something up.

waiting

[Matthew Weigel]

I bought the TT because I was already using Bluetooth and wanted something that didn't use an external adapter (I was using a Vx with the blue5, and I didn't want to use an SDIO card that stuck out of the top, either). What does the T2 add? A better screen (the TT's screen has been good enough for me, readable in all lighting conditions I've tried), and more memory (I already have a 128MB SD card, and I'm still using less than 8MB of internal memory).

The T2 looks like a product that might sway people not quite convinced to buy the TT, but I'm waiting for something like what the rumors have suggested: virtual graffiti area, 400MHz processor, and so on.

I need Tungsten 2 live!

[dev_null]

"Help, I need tungsten to live. Tungsten!"

Said by Allen Wrench in Simpsons episdoe BABF03

http://www.snpp.com/episodes/BABF03

Airports, Restaurants, Meetings

[Vagary]

So the airports and restaurants you frequent actually provide Internet access via Bluetooth? Is it free? I must say I'm impressed.

Re:Airports, Restaurants, Meetings

[pHDNgell]

So the airports and restaurants you frequent actually provide Internet access via Bluetooth?

No, but my phone does, and it works in a lot don't (and probably won't) have wifi.

Still cool, but kind of expensive (nm) :(

[Vagary]

nm

totally diffrent then Handspring Treo 600

[Anonymous Coward]

its not a cell, lame slashdot, lame...

My Rant

[MarcQuadra]

I guess I'm just old school.

I think 'multimedia' is bullshit.

Animations, video, and sound where they don't belong just piss me off.

If your website has flash I don't like it.

If my PDA has to render my address book in 'vibrant 16-bit color' it's more of a toy than a tool.

If I wanted to take pictures I'd have bought a camera, keep CCDs out of my PDAs and Phones.

Bluetooth is a way to reduce wire clutter, not an excuse to have 35 wireless perhipherals jumping around my desk.

video cards have too much RAM onboard these days. I don't think I've ever USED more than 5MB VRAM.

Tolerance

[NDPTAL85]

My first impulse to your subsequent posts was to call you a moron and label you a luddite. But you have valid reasons for your position so I must respect that.

This is the way I look at the PDA situation.

First of all color screens. My first PDA was a Kyocera 6035. 8MB, no expansion slot, 20Mhz CPU, greyscale screen. Basic unit. Great cell phone, great PDA. But I wanted MORE. Humans are able to see color and for good reason. More information can be conveyed with color than via black and white. I want that visual bandwidth.

So now I'm on my Kyocera 7135. I've got color, a bit faster CPU (33Mhz), an MP3 Player, and an expansion slot. These few things really make a difference. It can play videos too believe it or not although that is one function I don't really use. Voice memos (something the 6035 could do as well) is something I've just gotten into. Ever park your car at the mall and forget where it is? Now I just make a quick voice memo of its location.

PS I would love an addressbook in 16-bit color. That would enable me to put a picture next to every person's contact in my addressbook. Maybe the next generation of Smartphones will have that so I don't even have to open the flip to see who's calliing! (Well technically I don't now because of the LCD on the top of the phone but I mean SEE not READ who's calling).

Hmmm

[NaveWeiss]

I wonder why they don't use that browser on other palms too. I believe that a 100mHz processor could handle page rendering by itself..
Thanks for checking.

"T2"?

[Sleeper Service]

Does that mean the case is made of liquid metal? Won't that get messy?

Re:Tolerance....not for him

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you should just went with calling him a moron. Most of us can understand things if they more visually appealing.

Bluetooth is awesome, it's just infant.

I want MORE integration and smaller sizes and MORE visual interfaces with MORE ways to connect to other items.

My t68i phone is the greatest little piece of hardware I have ever owned and has every single thing the parent mentioned he hated.

Read the other posts, it's a pattern of being a turd, not just this one post here. So yeah, stick with calling him a moron ;)

Why pay $399 for a T|T2 when you can get a T|C ?

[Anonymous Coward]

www.bestbuy.com (and the Best Buy stores) has the Tungsten C on sale for $399 (same price as the Tungsten T2).. The C uses a PXA255 (Xscale) 400MHz cpu, has 64MB ram (51 available), has built-in 802.11b and a built-in thumbboard... a larger battery (8 hours or so uptime at max birghtness without wireless, or 3-5 hours if using wireless), and a REALLY sweet display...

Oh yeah and no CE!