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SCO "Disappointed" by Red Hat Lawsuit
schmidt349 writes "SCO has issued a preliminary response to Red Hat's lawsuit, in which President and CEO Darl McBride advises that SCO will prepare a "legal response" to Red Hat's requests for injunctive relief. In addition, he promises that the countersuit that SCO will file may include "counterclaims for copyright infringement and conspiracy." His final statement-- that Red Hat's "decision to file legal action does not seem conducive to the long-term survivability of Linux--" is chilling in light of the business strategy that SCO has adopted in its sales of UnixWare licenses to actual and potential users of the Linux kernel."
"I am also disappointed that you have chosen litigation rather than good faith discussions with SCO about the problems inherent in Linux."
I don't seem to remember SCO giving IBM much of a chance for "good faith discussions"
Hi Darl, you fascist, I run Linux on a dozen boxes. Please send me a bill that I will be happy to wipe my ass with and send back to you.
What an arrogant little prick.
I'm glad that Redhat finally brought their suit. This will assure linux users that they are not being left out to be attacked by SCO. Even if their claims are unfounded, you must agree that they seem to have a quite large legal team (if that isn't all that they have), and could really cause some damage if they started to attack companies. The companies may have to settle to just avoid a suit. Also, this'll nicely divide the SCO legal team into two suits.
"Men lie."
"Yeah, about sleeping with other women, but never about bioluminescent plankton."
-Dan Brown
Conspiracy? Wow, that's a really strong word to throw into the FUD campaign. It will certainly have people looking at Linux with even more doubt. Hopefully, the judicial system will work in this case and force SCO to actually prove their side of the issue.
- Darl McBride, CEO, SCO Group
Again, end users are not at risk, if anyone is, but rather the distributors of the Linux kernel in question. Secondly, the code was released by SCO under the GPL, negating the claim. Third, by not asking the "infringers" (who would be IBM primarily and companies like Red Hat secondly) to remove the suspect the code and instead attack the customers of the "infringers", SCO has made no attempt to keep their trade secret a secret at all, which renders it's claim to secrecy invalid in legal terms.
SCO has buried itself. I can't believe that anyone is still buying their stock, all they are doing is making McBride richer.
"In any such meeting, we will provide example after example of infringement of our intellectual property found in Linux. Of course, any such demonstration must be pursuant to an acceptable confidentiality agreement and must be intended to further good faith discussions about resolving the differences between us.........If you seek information for the purpose of informal discovery intended to benefit IBM in the pending litigation, or for the purpose of devising your own litigation plans against SCO related to Linux, we must respectfully decline your request."
- Robert Bench, CFO, SCO Group
In other words, they still refuse to take action in defending their trade secrets and rectifying the problem. No moral judge is going to cut them any slack with this kind of behaviour.
"Of course, we will prepare our legal response as required by your complaint. Be advised that our response will likely include counterclaims for copyright infringement and conspiracy."
- Darl McBride, CEO, SCO Group
It is amazing that this crook has the audacity to suppose that Red Hat is engaged in some kind of a conspiracy, considering the disgusting actions of his company. This is truly laughable.
1st anti-sco lawsuit, many more will come.
SCO's using lawsuits as a business threat? "this may include copyright violation charges!" It feels oddly like mccarthyism, or the salem witch trials, where any skeptics was accused of the crime themselves.
$8.95/mo web hosting
Will they continue to remain 'disappointed' if others follow the line of Red Hat and sue SCO? I'm sure there will a lot more anger floating around their offices than mere disappointment.
Mattb90
Editor, allaboutgames.co.uk
"I am also disappointed that you have chosen litigation rather than good faith discussions with SCO about the problems inherent in Linux." - Darl McBride
This guy oughtta write for Letterman!
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
I would say this is the pot calling the kettle black...but that just doesn't come close...
Today RedHat is
a) Good
b) Bad
c) CowboyNeal
We have been showing a portion of this code since early June.
Um...no you haven't. Nobody has seen this comparison but Darl McBride and his evil twin brother.
So, they're disappointed that other people are choosing litigation, which is exactly what they did. No surprise to me, though; I'm surprised that SCO is surprised.
I'm not saying that Red Hat made the wrong decision - they were injured and are suing - but I think the more Linux players SCO can get involved with litigation, the happier they will be - if they can drag out the proceedings. Imagine the boost to the "Linux has IP problems" line if all the major Linux players are tied up in litigation over IP issues.
The best that can happen is that they lose quickly. But I bet they'll drag it out as long as they can.
It's not wasting time, I'm educating myself.
SCO has not been trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt to end users. We have been educating end users on the risks of running an
/.).
operating system that is an unauthorized derivative of UNIX. Linux includes source code that is a verbatim copy of UNIX and carries with it no warranty or indemnification. SCO's claims are true and we look forward to proving them in court.
First off, don't use FUD in a press-release, that's just stupid.
Second, you might have been showing this section of code but the people you have shown it to have no fucking idea what it is, most people are speculating that it's bullshit anyway, and what's the fucking point? You are STILL fucking spreading GPL'd kernel code (in its entirety as we have been shown 1000x before on
Third, *everyone* looks forward to you showing this in court because you haven't proven anything anywhere else except that you can play God with your stock prices.
SCO's "Disappointed"? Awe poor SCO.
Well SCO, I'm very disappointed in YOU!
Now go to your room and don't come out until you've thought about what you've done.
See the Pictures of the Flood of '08
Right or wrong, RH was in their list of eventual suits..
This only pushes up the timetable.. Bad thing is RH is a more logical target the IBM..
They have a much better chance of squishing RH due to their size. This would set a legal precident that none of us want to see. And it would make it easier to go after the big guys. ( i stil dont know why they didnt try that to begin with.. )
Unlike IBM who can fight and destroy SCO due to their sheer mass..
.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
"How dare you counter our frivolous claims with an honest-to-goodness lawsuit based on real facts!?!?!"
We at the SCO are disappointed you did not roll over and die when we used the word lawyers.
We are awaiting further instruction from out legal team, however this may be delayed as our current course of action provided by our lawyers lists only the phrase "2. ???" for our next step. We are awaiting clarification from them before continuing.
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
Red Hat's decision to file legal action does not seem conducive to the long-term survivability of SCO.
No, I don't want a free iPod
If they all just got on with building software instead of legal wranglings, everyone would be better off. It just seems that almost anyone can kick up a fuss half expecting to be bought off, just because it's easier and cheaper than lititgation.
Vacancy for signature. Apply within.
I liked Red Hat's letter to SCO. So much that it leaves me wondering what would happen if every Linux user coordinated sending a copy with their demands to SCO on the same day. We could all demand responses.
Instead of supporting their FUD campaign with license fees, we could create cost by forcing them to deal with a mountain of letters. Make sure you send it registered/certified so that someone has to sign for it.
Just picture the tractor trailer backing up full of letters...
I used to wonder what was so holy about a silent night, now I have a child.
Whatever. If SCO proves their claims, then it won't be long before the Linux community re-writes those parts that IBM contributed and makes the Linux kernel "UNIX-free."
You'll pardon me if I'm not frightened.
Finding God in a Dog
SCO still has not formally charged someone with copyright violation... Their only (related) suit on record is a "contract breach" with IBM. That makes great grounds for libel and fraud, considering they continue to distribute Linux code over FTP months after proclaiming this a crime against themselves!
Give me a break!
What a load of nonsense doublespeak.
They are ready to sue IBM and everyone else they can get their hands off but they chide another company for taking legal action against them first?
Typical. This will not hasten the demise of linux but in actuality will only hasten the departure of SCO from the scene.
Kudos for RedHat for having the balls to call these scumbags bluff.
ACK
It was my understanding that the Microsoft EULA is the "use" license for Word--Linux customers have made no such agreement with SCO.
In addition, Stowell admits that IBM holds the copyrights to the code in question (emphasis mine):
Someone please ask SCO this:
Since IBM has the copyrights to the code in question, what recourse can SCO possibly have against end-users?
If the contracts forbid these "derivative works" from being contributed to open source, what recourse do you have against end-users now that they have been? You don't own the copyrights for such code, and end users are not party to your contract with IBM.
Or do you realize that you have no claim against end-users, and as such are inventing a new kind of intellectual property called "control rights"?
Saddam Hussein "Disappointed" by U.S. liberation of Iraq....news at 11!
I was going to post the text of the article, but then I decided against it ... I would prefer to just let them get slashdotted ;-)
Want to hear more details on the conspiracy and long term viability of Linux? Check out their conference call today:
Where: Toll Free within North America: 1-800-238-9007
International: 719-457-2622
Password to enter call: 274040
When: Tuesday, Aug. 5, 2003
2:00 p.m. EDT, 11:00 a.m. PDT
slatted to lose 35% today after 8% losss yesterday..
burn sco group shares!
Don't Tread on OpenSource
That's nothing - he can do that with both of his faces as well.
++ Say to Elrond "Hello.".
Elrond says "No.". Elrond gives you some lunch.
What SCO said, and what they really meant
SCO has consistently stated that our UNIX System V source code and derivative UNIX code have been misappropriated into Linux 2.4 and 2.5 kernels
We just want to scare you into paying us money. Thats easier than actually producing a product that anyone wants.
We have been educating end users on the risks of running an operating system that is an unauthorized derivative of UNIX.
We have been trying to extort money from you.
SCO's claims are true and we look forward to proving them in court.
If we can get you to give us money, then we don't really have to prove anything. Our lawyers told us that.
Recent correspondence from SCO to Red Hat further explains SCO's position
Holy SH*T someone is calling our bluff, what? They have lawyers? Suing WHO? I can't belive it, threatenting to sue is the way to do business, can't we grease your palm with some of our liscence fee to make this go away?
"Science is about ego as much as it is about discovery and truth " - I said it, so sue me.
Being the biz world's poster child for linux, they basicly have to counter suit to maintain the validity of the kernel.
Though I often trash talk redhat for not quite being what I want in a distro, I have to give them a pat on the back for this. kudos to ibm as well, though I'm not happy about them sending so many developer jobs over seas.
-makoffee
SCO Sues you!
No wait, we did that already
Is NIL. SCO does not have a legal team. For some time now the company HAS become a law practicing firm. So the RedHat suit comes just like getting a new client.
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
Toll Free within North America: 1-800-238-9007
International: 719-457-2622
Password to enter call: 274040
More info at: http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030805/latu080_1.html
What would happen if the next version of the kernel simply rewrote the disputed parts of the code? Or, at least if there were some parts that were more in question than others, just these?
In addition, I'm wondering about the rest of the world, like China, Japan, countries in South America, all of which are repidly adopting Linux. They don't need to worry about the U.S. copyright laws so what happens then? Everyone is already pissed at the U.S. so does Linux become a world standard and MS an American one, like NTSC and PAL?
SCO has consistently stated that our UNIX System V source code and derivative UNIX code have been misappropriated into Linux 2.4 and 2.5 kernels. We have been showing a portion of this code since early June. SCO has not been trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt to end users. We have been educating end users on the risks of running an operating system that is an unauthorized derivative of UNIX. Linux includes source code that is a verbatim copy of UNIX and carries with it no warranty or indemnification. SCO's claims are true and we look forward to proving them in court.
... [and Red Hat's] lack of access to unpublished software patent applications, copyright registrations which fail to adequately disclose source code, and numerous issued software patents that are of dubious validity ... Claims of infringement could require us to seek to obtain
Recent correspondence from SCO to Red Hat further explains SCO's position.
The first letter is from Bob Bench, CFO of The SCO Group, Inc., to Mark Webbink, Sr. Vice President and General Counsel of Red Hat, Inc., that SCO intended to send to Red Hat. After a conversation between Matthew Szulik and Darl McBride, Red Hat determined that SCO did not need to send this letter.
The second letter is one that was sent to Matthew Szulik today from Darl McBride after Red Hat's lawsuit was filed.
July 31, 2003
Mark Webbink, Esq.
Sr. Vice President and General Counsel
RED HAT, INC.
1801 Varsity Drive
Raleigh, NC 27606
VIA FACSIMILE: (919) 754-3700
Dear Mr. Webbink:
This letter is in response to yours of July 18, 2003 to Darl McBride President and CEO of The SCO Group, Inc. ("SCO").
Before responding to your request, it is important to place your letter in context. Your letter follows on the heels of Red Hat's S-3 filing of July 7, 2003, in which your company revised its risk disclosure statement.[1] In addition, SCO is currently engaged in litigation with International Business Machines Corporation ("IBM") regarding its role in the development of the Linux operating system. At the time of your letter, we had expected the possibility of a global resolution of SCO's intellectual property claims against all Linux-related companies that would have likely included Red Hat. This effort has apparently stalled, through no fault of SCO.
Based on the posture of our litigation and your revised risk disclosures, it is unclear to us the purpose of your July 18, 2003 letter. If you desire to enter good faith discussions to address SCO's intellectual property claims against Linux, either on behalf of a wider consortium of Linux companies or solely on behalf of Red Hat, we are willing to meet with you for that purpose. In any such meeting, we will provide example after example of infringement of our intellectual property found in Linux. Of course, any such demonstration must be pursuant to an acceptable confidentiality agreement and must be intended to further good faith discussions about resolving the differences between us.
If you seek information for the purpose of informal discovery intended to benefit IBM in the pending litigation, or for the purpose of devising
your own litigation plans against SCO related to Linux, we must respectfully decline your request. Therefore, please clarify in writing the purpose for your request. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Robert Bench
Chief Financial Officer
The SCO Group, Inc.
[1] Red Hat states in the revised disclosure that it is "vulnerable to claims that [its] products infringe third-party intellectual property rights particularly because [its] products are comprised of distinct software components many of which are developed by independent parties." The revised risk disclosure continues: "[M]uch of the code in [Red Hat's] products is developed by independent parties over whom we exercise no supervision or control
Reporters might want to consider this list of questions for the conference call today:
Note: Brazenly ripped off from a post on the SCOX Yahoo discussion board:
1. When you said there are thousands of files of "your" (ie SCO's) Intellectual Property in Linux, were you referring to IBM's copyrighted and patented code?
2. Isn't that a very liberal and deceptive use of the word "your"?
3. Were you intentionally trying to mislead investors, Linux users, and the general public by referring to it as "your" IP before your case with IBM even goes to trial?
4. Are you concerned that your deceptive use of the words "your" and "our(s)" will lead to class action lawsuits by investors?
5. Don't the clauses in ammendment X saying that IBM owns all work produced by IBM and that those works are not subject to the other restrictions in Ammendment X mean that IBM can donate its patented, copyrighted code to Linux?
6. If you and other SCO execs feel you have such a strong case, why have there been no executives cashing in options and holding them?
7. Assuming for the moment that IBM has violated your trade secrets, accourding to established IP law, wouldn't that simply mean that IBM was liable to you for damages, but that the 'secrets' are now out of the bag and there is no legal way to encumber Linux because of that?
8. Given the filing date on your copyright, isn't SCO enjoined from seeking statutory damages or fees and limited only to the much harder to prove actual damages in any copyright legal action against Linux?
9. How does SCO, a Unix company, expect to make use of Vultus, a web services company whose product works only in Internet Explorer for deployment on IIS servers as a slower than Java replacement for Java?
10. Sontag has publicly stated that JFS, RCU, and NUMA are copyrighted by IBM but that SCO has "control rights" over that code. Is that type of contract legal? Has the validity of such a contract ever been tested in court?
Compliments of martin_lvnv -
11. When was the last time you checked on the number of resellers and developers? Don't you think it might be time to update those figures?
Problem is he DOESN'T want to go to court.
:D
"I thought it was best to telephone you and speak in person to see if we could resolve the issues between our companies short of litigation."
Oh and here is something amusing.
" I am disappointed that you were not more forthcoming about your intentions. I am also disappointed that you have chosen litigation rather than good faith discussions with SCO about the problems inherent in Linux."
Not more forthcoming? Isn't this SCO's entire business strategy for 2003-2004?
"Of course, we will prepare our legal response as required by your complaint. Be advised that our response will likely include counterclaims for copyright infringement and conspiracy."
Conspiracy? Is this guy off his medication again? Ye Gods! I believe this guy is gunning for the idiot of the year award. Before year end he will be more popular than my favorite idiot. The Iraqi Information Minister
Has Comcast disconnected your Internet account? Same here. You can read about it at http://comcastissue.blogspot.com
Instructions:
1. Wear your best black Ninja gear
2. Creep into office of someone who signed the NDA (if you can find them)
3. Take a copy of the documents showing the so called 'stolen' code.
4. Post them on your anon website.
5. Get Slashdotted.
Go on, someone, be a hero and show us the code, we're all meant to be using illegally. There's turnips in it for you!
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
long int infinity = 32768;
/
for (i=0,i<=inifinity,++i){
Sue();
GetCountersued();
CountersueCountersuer();
}
Profit!
I leave it to you to work out all the bugs for SCO and upload the source via CVS to the following ftp server: ftp://ftp.scogroup.com/evilbits/code/profitengine
Thanks!
A few things that stood out for me:
.
SCO has not been trying to spread fear, uncertainty and doubt to end users.
I love the way this is phrased. It sounds like it's the first they've heard of the term FUD. They're literally adressing every word of the acronym.
We have been educating end users on the risks of running an operating system that is an unauthorized derivative of UNIX.
The risk is that SCO will sue you, of course.
Linux includes source code that is a verbatim copy of UNIX and carries with it no warranty or indemnification. SCO's claims are true and we look forward to proving them in court.
"Yep, the claims are true. Really true. See how true they are. And we'll show this truth at a later date. If we need to."
And no warranty and indemnification . .
In any such meeting, we will provide example after example of infringement of our intellectual property found in Linux. Of course, any such demonstration must be pursuant to an acceptable confidentiality agreement and must be intended to further good faith discussions about resolving the differences between us.
"So, we'll provide a ton of examples, then control how you can discuss them. Trust us. You have to sign the agreement of course before we provide them"
If you seek information for the purpose of informal discovery intended to benefit IBM in the pending litigation, or for the purpose of devising your own litigation plans against SCO related to Linux, we must respectfully decline your request.
This makes me wonder what kind of NDA would be required to see the code anyway. It sounds like "we can show you this stuff if it never gets involved in a lawsuit, but we can sue the bejesus out of you anytime."
To my surprise, I just discovered that your company filed legal action against The SCO Group earlier today.
A Linux company suing SCO. Will surprises never cease.
Be advised that our response will likely include counterclaims for copyright infringement and conspiracy.
"We're going to try and turn this lawsuit into a new revenue stream for us."
I must say that your decision to file legal action does not seem conducive to the long-term survivability of Linux.
Pure threat. Red Hat isn't the only Linux out there. This sounds like A) A general threat and B) more of a "bring it on" attitude towards Linux in general - posturing.
I don't think much has changed. This is the usual mix of threat and PR work.
My two cents.
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
Here's a suggestion that I am proposing for Darl McBride, which he is free to use without paying royalties to myself:
I would pay good money for that!Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
The enemies of freedom were at it again last night. On Kudlow and Kramer on CNBC some analyst hack mentioned Linux's "IP problems" in a Microsoft story. I am afraid that the SCO suit is having its intended affect by negatively influencing public opinion and support by business and analysts. By proxy with SCO, Microsoft is accomplishing what it could not do alone in creating Linux FUD.
By the way the /. crowd has ridiculed Stallman in the past about making contributors sign legal disclosure forms for FSF programs. What do you say now, fools? Had Linus and his open source buddies been half as vigilant about the source of code contibutions, this issue would not exist.
an ill wind that blows no good
I suppose the question is "are you paranoid if everyone is out to get you BECAUSE you annoyed them all."
"The Sage treasures Unity and measures all things by it" - Lao Tzu
Red Hat's countersuit is only beneficial to Linux. Even Chris Stone, who is moving Novell ahead with it's own desktop Linux distro, seems to think so.
Of course Red Hat is going to countersue. The Linux kernel has a lot of code that THEY developed and spent money on.
My journal has hot
SCO's stocks have almost recovered, though. See here.
It's sad so many people are buying into this kind of crap.
Its almost as if Darl McBride is reading slashdot. He's the little kid on the playground that keeps poking at you until you chase him. Then he runs and hides. Posts like this parent are just what he is looking for. He wants to see how many linux users he can piss off before SCO falls.
Sehr geehrter Toilettenbenutzer!
"Linux geeks howled a bit, but then wrote off SCO as a bunch of sleazebags and went back to playing live-action roleplaying (LARP) games in their mothers' basements, or whatever it is they do when they're not writing device drivers and complaining about clueless end users."
But Redhat is trying to win an Injunction, which doesn't cost much and doesn't take long.
If Redhat loses in its attempt, THEN you are talking about a longer lawsuit and then you are also more likely to see, as IIRC Bruce Perens was recently quoted as stating, the cases betwixt SCO, IBM and Redhat settling.
This prediction of settlement I thought was one of this week's weirdest twists, and it hasn't been much commented upon. Are the issues so murky that Bruce thinks obtaining an injunction v. SCO is unlikely, and so like in the majority of cases which result in long, drawn-out court battles, all sides would then be more likely to settle and end the bleeding?
This portion of the correspondence (where Red Hat explains it's intentions) is the cusp of the thing:
"Claims of infringement could require us to seek to obtain licenses from third parties in order to continue offering our products, to reengineer our products, or to discontinue the sale of our products in the event reengineering could not be accomplished on a timely basis."
So Red Hat requested to know what parts are infringement. The purpose is to either pay a fee to use, rewrite the stuff to eliminate infringement, or stop selling the stuff if they can't get it fixed quickly. They gave SCO 30 days to provide them with the kernel code, then decided to sue them since they were dragging their heels. This is smart. Red Hat depends on Linux (duh). They want to get this resolved. By stating clearly that they will simply rewrite the code in question, SCO balked and delayed. Red Hat's managers seem to have a good grip on how a business is run, and SCO just realized that once Red Hat makes a compliant kernel, the rest of the community will follow, and SCO will have no suit. This is the real reason they are hiding the code till trial. They won't have a case if it comes out sooner.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
Has anyone thought about maybe diffing the recent Linux sources against legacy UNIX sources (like SCO used to license)? It seems like such a simple and logical thing to do. They found the alleged infrigements, why can't we?
If I had the appropriate UNIX sources, I'd do it myself. Somebody out there must have a copy of the UNIX in question.
The FUD will evaporate in the cold light of day.
Ask your doctor if getting up off your ass is right for you! -- Bill Maher
I wish they'd just yelled and grounded me. Their being disappointed just makes me feel so much sorrier...
Until April 2005, as I recall. From my own limited experiences with the legal system, (My father involved in a complex dispute over the family farm, and a drawn out divorce) these things move at a speed akin to continental drift. The whole thing will unfold in slow motion, and like an aging wine cannot be hurried. No matter who wins the 2005 hearing, there are bound to be further rounds of settlement talks. (in the unlikely event SCO gains a partial victory) Legal action involving other Linux distributors and SCO will play out over an even longer timeframe, if there is anything left of the carcass, assuming IBM wins.
This will be both a cash drain and an unfortunate distraction for Red Hat, but it has the positive effect of casting a longer shadow over SCO, since they are now fighting a second front. If other Linux distributors follow suit, (or perhaps band together into a class action?) and sue SCO then it will put even greater pressure on them.
My rights don't need management.
SCO distributed the linux kernel to me under the terms of the GPL just last week (it is still on their ftp servers). I'm quite willing to license the kernel to Redhat under the GPL as is my right. SCO can't claim copyright infringement or anything as they did not take down the kernel even after I emailed them last week pointing this out.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
The moment they state the file or day, can't you just go look up the good ol' CVS for that day, and see who put it in there?.. I could think of nothing funnier in court than:
....
Monday:
Judge: Please state the files, lines, etc that are in question.
Sco: File xyz.c lines abc.c
Judge: This could be incrimenating, yes.
Tuesday:
Judge: Linux Distro X, do you have anything to say before we proceed?
Penguin: Only that we clean-roomed the files in question and rebuilt the kernel last night while you were sleeping. Any code SCO might lay claim to is no longer an issue.. We had offered to remove the offending material, but SCO never told us where it was... it is now gone. At the courts disgression, we can also remove the source logs of the offending files
meh
I think /. should put together an interview with Mr McBride. Seriously, I want to hear this guy reason and rationalize this stuff. Maybe he can come up with a good reason. Or maybe his head will spin off like a fist full of Chinese fireworks.
How would you translate that to text? *fffffffwwwwwwwwppppp!!!*
What is music when you despise all sound?
Somebody needs to call up RIAA and convince them of the following:
1) All their copyright infringers are using Linux
2) Linux is apparently the same as SCO
3) Thus, the root of all their problems is SCO.
Lock RIAA and SCO up in the same room and let them fight each other. Now that would be a reality show worth watching.
*grin* They have.
From Forbes: That's pretty much -exactly- what the suit is saying, in a nutshell.
-- Robert Bench, Chief Financial Officer, The SCO Group, Inc.
Take notice, all you that still believe that this is just a simple contract dispute between SCO and IBM. SCO's CFO is clearly stating that they have IP claims against the Linux kernel!
There should be no doubt of their intents after this...
... for some message to pop up somewhere, with some guy going
... I dunno. Is this guy more or less priceless than al-Sahaf? ...
"OH GOD! YES! I DID IT! I COPIED V5 SOURCE CODE INTO THE LINUX KERNEL.
I'M SO SORRY! THE PRESSURE! I COULDN'T TAKE IT ANYMORE! AAAARGH! *sob*"
Whereupon we can all go "you know - you're a dick" and buy him a beer. Then everyone cleans up after him.
As to Dee McBride
Dude - *you're* disappointed? Well let me tell you how *we* feel
yes, we have no bananas
That's simple.
If you were the number one player in a product category, and a competitor less than one tenth your size announced a frivolous claim that you were violating their patent / copyright, you would in fact damage your credibility if you purchased them.
Also, SCO has little or no real chance of retaining market share if their IP claims are dismissed. This is real reason they are suing. SCO's product is simply inferior to a lot of open source products.
I think anyone even speculating on [name of large company here] buying SCO is being particularly foolish, as any investor seeing that speculation may be mislead and actually help to drive SCOX's stock price up.
BUT...A DMCA letter being a instant shutdown of their operation would require SCO to go to a court and validate the need for such a shutdown of Red Hat's business....No sane judge would allow a SCO to shut another down and refuse in court to tell why the offender is liable and refuse to allow the company C&D'd to become compliant. A DMCA C&D would be horrible, but it's something tangible that Red Hat can fight against rather than the "will be open to.." or "We may sue..." that SCO has been spewing lately.
it's extraordinary to see today's business practices. Just Check out sco's stock value anywhere (Nasdaq: SCOX if you missed it from all related press releases*). It's gone from around 1.2 in january when they starting hinting about pressing IP claims, to the current 12! They've increased their value by an order of magnitude! At the same time they put themselves in a situation where it would be convenient for IBM to just buy them to make'em shut up.
:)
And in the whole affair, Linux gets bad publicity for the guys who hold the Big Money strings. These guys don't care about effectiveness, they don't want to be hit by a lawsuite, which would be MUCH costlier than reducing purchase/licensing costs.
So while Linux keeps making steps forward in our geeky view (yay! just about as easy as winxp! yay! it got an excellent common cirteria certification), SCO is batting it back to the prehistoric age.
Remember, winning such a lawsuite isn't all about "being right". Lawyers know everything of loopholes around "being right", and given enough money will explain by 1+1=2 that Bad is Good. This is going to be long and bloody because it's SCO's last-ditch policy, and we're talking cornered-rat tactics by people with money and getting media attention.
The only thing we can do about it is, if ever your Boss mentions the name SCO, calmly explain how they have absolutely no chance of winning, and any money given to them is straight to the trash, and money refused to Red Hat and other OSS-based companies in light of the fight will seriously hamper lots of excellent quality projects.
*btw aren't there criteria which would quickly kick SCO out of Nasdaq? that would be fun
Misleading titles? Inflammatory blurbs? Keep in mind that Slashdot is a tabloid.
What do you know? It's one day later, the "apocalyptic statement" has been made, and SCO's stock price is up 5% for the day! Good call!
If you look carefully at stock market data on SCOX, you'll eventually find an interesting stat on "Short Interest" which Nasdaq defines as...
SCOX short interest in April was ~40k shares, May was ~30k shares, June was ~280k shares, July was ~390k shares. About mid-May was when SCOX stock price jumped from ~$4 to ~$10.
Based on this, i'd opinion that many brokers don't believe the SCO FUD either. Many are positioning themselves for a hefty profit when SCOX claims are proven in court (which i believe to be inevetable) to be null & void.
Personally, I very nearly exited a BAD stock position, thus taking a significant $ hit on my portfolio, in order to short SCOX at $15 near the end of July. I may regret not doing so for a long time.
As to makeing McBride richer, according to the SEC, he hasn't cashed out on any of his stock yet. 5 of his employees, however, (2 Sr Vice Presidents, 2 Vice Presidents, and their CFO) have cashed out a total of ~75k shares for a grand total of ~$884k. Combined, the 5 of them have at LEAST 395k more shares which can be sold
Those are the facts as near as I can gather with my meager resources.
"Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte
So SCO wants to make a counter suite to Redhat's counter suite to SCOs suing of all Linux users? Maybe we can get some kind of recursive counter suing going on so all known lawyers get tied up into one case. Then life in the US can go back to normal.
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
Why are Dell and HP so silent on this? HP 'fully supports' Linux according to recent articles yet they're keeping their lips tighter than any of them. Not even a peep.
Last time I looked at a changelog there were several @hp.com addresses that were adding stuff to the kernal.
What's up with that?
As a rock-in-roll Physicist once said, No matter where you go, there you are.
Mod me flamebait all you want.
I have moderator points, but there is no "un-informed" or "grossly incorrect" comment label, so I am commenting instead.
And its a definate possibility, considering the linux community has no respect for IP laws in general, and IBM has no respect for fair business practices.
The Linux community does not believe in IP laws, but that does not make them code thiefs. They belive in a licience that does not allow any one person or organization to own any code they write.
So far all the linux community can defend itself with is name-calling.
When the names are applicable and correct, it is'nt name calling, it's FUD busting.
When SCO won't even disclose the nature or specifics of the accused infringments, the community has very little to defend itself from.
Or, how about this scenario? IBM settles out of court, admitting guilt. They license - and now own for all intents and purposes - linux.
You obviously have no idea how sofware liciencing works. If IBM settled, all that would happen is that SCO would get an ammount of cash for each copy that IBM sold. This would give them permission to use the code and Linux would remain unchanged. In the worst case, the code would be removed from all commercial distributions, but the GPL would still apply to the remainder of the code.
Eventually, one way or another, linux will be declared some corporations property. It's guaranteed. The more valuable it becomes, the harder people will fight and the more tricks they will use to make sure it does not remain free.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Linux is explicitly licienced to be Open, Free and without ownership. It will never become the property of any one organization.
Redhat has this cool thing called "stock." Thats probably the best way to donate :)
Seems to me that SCO is practicing the ancient art of "nuisance lawsuits" where IBM, RedHat and the like will eventually pay them off to make them go away.
I'm not an attorney (standard disclaimer) but I've sued several people in small claims court and I've learned two things:
1. It costs large companies thousands of dollars just to show up for such things.
2. If they don't show up, they lose no matter how ridiculous your claim is.
Why don't we all sue SCO Group in our local area and force them to defend themselves? Imagine 100, 500 or 10,000 lawsuits for $1,000 each against them in every municipality in the country? They'd either spend millions responding to each of them or risk having literally millions of dollars in default judgements against them which they'd have to disclose on their SEC filings and to shareholders. You might even collect the money!
It will cost each of us approximately $50 to file such a lawsuit. Consider that a contribution to the open source movement that you might even get back 20-fold. I think someone should create a Step-By-Step "How to sue SCO in your local area" document. I'm busy.
I'm a big tall mofo.
It's too bad SCO has already distributed Linux 2.4.x under the GPL. Thanks, SCO, for delegitimizing your own claims.
They even specifically mention SMP improvements. Isn't their claim to copyright infringement against Linux 2.4's SMP code? So they can jump on the Linux bandwagon, say, "Hey, we've got improved SMP scalability, and we're distributing it under the GPL (because we have to)!", then jump off when their business fails and sue everybody for code they themselves distributed under the GPL?
I browsed through their RPM archives on their FTP. They've removed all the kernel RPMs and SRPMs. Oh well.
Fuck SCO. I hope they crash and burn.
-=/\- Jizzbug -/\=-
I just visited the German SCO Server (online again, *sig*). Their Newsletter 01/2003 brags about SCO-Linux being ready for enterprise level applications. They state that SCO Linux (distributed under GPL AFAIK) includes code of the "Open Source Community" and the "UnitedLinux LLC, which included and integrated the functionalities critical for professional enterprise deployment" (bad translation by me ;-)).
... back to see if they still have something about this whole mess on their German server. That would cost them a lot of money now.
Then they go on talking about what great stuff there is in this release (see page 2 of the newsletter):
* Kernel 2.4.19, KDE 3 etc
* Improvements in the memory manager for scalability and performance
etc.
I don't believe they did not know what they were distributing if they advertise with this stuff.
OK
Anyone planning on blogging this somewhere? I may not be able to call in and I'd be interested in seeing the transcript in either a sparse or blog-commented upon form.
Not me. I hope they kick their asses swiftly and without mercy. It is more decisive that way. Let SCO wallow in the appeals process. The longer this is in the courts, the worse it is for Linux in general.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
ftp://ftp.sco.com/pub/scolinux/server/4.0/updates/ SRPMS/
Scroll down to the k's... there are updates specifically for SMP kernels.
Sometimes I wish this would just get to litigation now, because I believe things like this will screw SCO. But then again, IBM has the money to destroy SCO in negotiations... either way works for me.
Dear Mr. "CmdrTaco" Malda and other Slashdot editors:
I appreciated the link in the story to the SCO. It is always best to get the story straight from the horse's mouth. Or, in the case of SCO, the other end of the horse. However, would it be too much trouble to put a "goatse.cx" disclaimer on further links to SCO's website? They are clearly too closely related for my comfort.
On another issue, I understand that there has been conversation regarding changing the SCO icon from it's current Mickey Mouse looking thing to something resembling the goatse.cx picture. I, for one, cast a whole-hearted "no" vote on that potential change. I think that the current Mickey Mouse looking icon accurately reflects the nature of SCO's enterprise and that the proposed alteration might be traumatic for the younger readers of this "family" website.
Thank you for your consideration.
Respectfully,
guacamolefoo
Lots of petrified grits
Why doesn't RedHat just buy them?
People keep asking this question, so it seems like it deserves a "OK, once and for all, this is why" answer.
Your question is based on the (common) misconception that all of a company's shares (or even a majority of them) are necessarily publicly traded. A company, when it "goes public," may make 95% of all its shares available to the public, or it may make only 5% of those shares public.
If the case is the latter, you could go to the NYSE or NASDAQ and buy every share there that someone is selling, and you would still only own 5% of the company. Ownership percentage = the percentage of votes you can cast on shareholder questions like kicking out the board of directors, etc.
I don't have figures, but I believe that SCO is more than 51% privately held. So buying all the publicly traded shares of SCO still isn't going to let you dictate the course of the company, it would just give you a bunch of (hopefully soon worthless) shares. The only way to gain control of the company would be to buy out the private owners ... who, I'm guessing, will make that price VERY steep if they think they have any chance at winning.
"95% of all Slashdot
I now present the following bits of source code that SCO has on display...
;
}
}
;
}
This sig no verb.
I am also disappointed that you have chosen litigation rather than good faith discussions..
l
This from a company who's only possible sources of income are related to suing, or threatening to sue everybody.
I must say that your decision to file legal action does not seem conducive to the long-term survivability of Linux
This from the company that has been bashing Linux non-stop for months now, and who plans to eliminate Linux as it now known.
Be advised that our response will likely include counterclaims for copyright infringement and conspiracy
Gosh, I thought Darl hated all that nasty litigation. Conspiracy? Sort of like Microsoft and Sun secretly funding Scox's anti-linux FUD campaign? Or Sco's actions being dictated by Canopy Group?
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030804/lam110_1.htm
Besides, It's mostly Suse's implementation that SCO is distributing RIGHT NOW. They're best to remain quiet and stick by the terms of their current contract. Should SCO try to weasle out..then SuSe will have lots of ammo!
Fuck you and the source you rode in on,
Attached is the letter I discussed with you during our July 31, 2003 telephone conversation.
I am attaching a letter for your review.
Instead of actually sending the letter, I thought it was best to telephone you and speak in person
We didn't have enough in the petty cash drawer to buy a stamp, but I got this really good deal on long-distance calls, so...
to see if we could resolve the issues between our companies short of litigation.
PLEASE DON'T HURT US!
We left the conversation with a preliminary agreement to meet and continue our discussions further.
You're buying this round, I'm broke.
To my surprise, I just discovered that your company filed legal action against The SCO Group earlier today.
Et tu, Matthew?
You, of course, mentioned nothing of this during our telephone conversation.
You're a sneaky bastard and I'm proud of you, son.
I am disappointed that you were not more forthcoming about your intentions.
*sniffle*
I am also disappointed that you have chosen litigation rather than good faith discussions with SCO about the problems inherent in Linux.
You talking to me?
Of course, we will prepare our legal response as required by your complaint.
/me is opening a can of legal whupass. Oops, it's way past the expiry date...
Be advised that our response will likely include counterclaims for copyright infringement and conspiracy.
We're gonna get medeival on your ass.
I must say that your decision to file legal action does not seem conducive to the long-term survivability of Linux.
insert boilerplate_empty_threat.c
Yours truly
Fuck off
Darl C. McBride
Darl "My sandbox was full of cement" McBribe
President & CEO
Chief Entertainment Officer, The Up the Creek Correctional Facility LLC
Money for nothing, pix for free
Stock up 4% as of 1:13pm ET:
/PRNewswire-FirstCall via COMTEX/ -- The SCO Group, Inc. (SCOX, Trade), the owner and licensor of the core UNIX(R) operating system source code, today announced the availability of the SCO Intellectual Property License for Linux(R). The run-time license permits the use of SCO's intellectual property, in binary form only, as contained in Linux distributions. By purchasing a SCO Intellectual Property License, customers avoid infringement of SCO's intellectual property rights in Linux 2.4 and Linux 2.5 kernels. Because the SCO license authorizes run-time use only, customers also comply with the General Public License, under which Linux is distributed.
O GO )
.
.
/Photo: NewsCom: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/19990421/SCOLO GO
SCO Announces Intellectual Property License for Linux
August 05, 2003 12:43:00 (ET)
LINDON, Utah, Aug 5, 2003
(Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/19990421/SCOL
SCO announced in July that it had registered the copyrights to its software releases of UNIX System V and UnixWare(R) with the U.S. Copyright office and that it would offer licenses to cure the SCO IP infringement issues for Linux operating systems. Beginning this week, SCO will start meeting with commercial Linux customers to present the details of this right to use SCO intellectual property binary licensing program.
"We have identified numerous files of unlicensed UNIX System V code and UNIX System V derivative code in the Linux 2.4 and 2.5 kernels," said Chris Sontag, senior vice president and general manager of SCOsource, the intellectual property licensing division of SCO. "We believe it is necessary for Linux customers to properly license SCO's IP if they are running Linux 2.4 kernel and later versions for commercial purposes. The license insures that customers can continue their use of binary deployments of Linux without violating SCO's intellectual property rights."
Pricing and Availability
SCO will be offering an introductory license price of $699 for a single CPU system through October 15th, 2003. Pricing for multiple CPU systems, single CPU add-ons, desktop systems and embedded systems will also be available. Linux users who are interested in additional information or purchasing an IP License for Linux should contact their local SCO sales representative or call SCO at 1-800-726-8649 or visit our web site at http://www.sco.com/scosource
About The SCO Group
The SCO Group (SCOX, Trade) helps millions of customers in more than 82 countries to grow their businesses with UNIX business solutions. Headquartered in Lindon, Utah, SCO has a worldwide network of more than 11,000 resellers and 4,000 developers. SCO Global Services provides reliable localized support and services to all partners and customers. For more information on SCO products and services visit http://www.sco.com
SCO and the associated SCO logo are trademarks or registered trademarks of The SCO Group, Inc., in the U.S. and other countries. UNIX and UnixWare are registered trademarks of The Open Group in the United States and other countries. All other brand or product names are or may be trademarks of, and are used to identify products or services of, their respective owners.
SOURCE The SCO Group
Blake Stowell of The SCO Group, +1-801-932-5703,
bstowell@sco.com ; or Dave Close, Avi Dines, or Brian Willinsky, all of
Schwartz Communications, +1-781-684-0770, sco@schwartz-pr.com , for The SCO
Group
AP Archive: http://photoarchive.ap.org
PRN Photo Desk, +1-888-776-6555 or +1-212-782-2840
http://www.sco.com/scosource
"You have liberated me from thought."
I suppose now is a good time to plug my own letter to SCO. Yes, I'm self plugging, but why not have a bit of fun?
This sig no verb.
I just saw this press release from SCO. Pricing starts at $699 per CPU until October 15th, 2003!
Unbelievable!
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
Dear Darl:
Please note, there is no actual conspiracy against SCO; it only seems that way because everyone hates you.
TINC
The original Red Hat letter to SCO demanded an identification of the allegedly infringing code, in enough detail that the issues could be fixed (whether or not the allegations were subsequently shown to be true).
What I don't know is whether SCO's refusal to respond damages their case, but I suspect it does; even if they can prove infringement, they have failed to take steps, in this action, to minimize harm to themselves. If I understand correctly, that isn't good for them.
"RedHat, I'm disappointed in ya. What are yaz do'in on my turf? If you're not careful, I'll have da boys ruff ya up."
Of course, he can threaten RedHat like this because the two 'gangs' are roughly the same size... But IBM is standing over in the shadows behind RedHat.
Darl needs psychiatric help and someone should should get his HBO shut off to help him come out of his fantasy world.
and
I don't get it. NDAs (or confidentiality agreements) are meant to keep "trade secrets". Regardless of the legal status of the code in question, it is openly viewable in the GNU/Linux source code. They are not keep the code secret, they are keeping secret which sections of code are in copyright violation. If not for FUD (which they deny), what possible purpose could they have for the NDAs? Has anybody ever seen them explain why? I can't think of any legitimate reason for it. I'm not saying they don't have one, but I'd like to hear it.
I think this holds true unless M$ leaps in with another handfull of $$$.
Yes, this is the worrying one. I can see SCO going down the tubes and someone inimical to FOSS buying them solely with the idea of clobbering Linux and other Open Source software.
MS is the likeliest candidate, but it probably wouldn't be the only one. There are other software companies whose breakfast is being eaten by FOSS.
SCO's issue seems to be with code that IBM completely and honestly believe they own, wrote and have the rights to. IBM would probably have signed such a disclosure form.
The FSF's disclosure/assignment policy protects them against individuals whose employers might sue. Not corporations giving source code.
However distasteful the strategy, I'd expect there to be some logic behind it (even if broken). Many analysts have stated that this is all a strategy to get themselves acquired for many times what they're really worth (warning: trying to quantify that last one may involve a divide by zero).
But they supposedly hired David Boies to represent them. He's a very good lawyer (and very expensive). Somehow I don't think he wrote that letter. So what is he doing? Have SCO really hired him, or did they just pay him for a one hour consult so they could claim that he's working on the case? Krill
SCO has just announced pricing for its Linux licensing scheme.
SCO will be offering an introductory license price of $699 for a single CPU system through October 15th, 2003.
and
Because the SCO license authorizes run-time use only, customers also comply with the General Public License, under which Linux is distributed.
Another question I'd like to see asked is for a clearer explanation of that last sentence. I just can't think of any way that could make any sense.
Peer Review: (to be confidential inside SCO under standard NDA)
This business plan has several problems:
- The function sue() cannot be proven to ever return (see ACM literature re. "Halting Problem"), meaning any suit could effectively last forever.
- The function sue() is self-recursive, meaning it could consume all resources available to the machine.
- The counterSue() signal handler is poorly implemented and introduces a vulnerability whereby a countersuit DoS attack may be initiated upon Business Plan v2.0; countersuits launched while Business Plan v2.0 is launching a response to another countersuit may go unnoticed, and as such the countersuing vendor would win due to lack of action by the software.
- The main() function targets all vendors without attempting to verify if the overhead of calling sue() is justified, nor attempting to execute lawsuits in an optimal order.
- No attempt is made to limit the resources consumed (threads spawned) during the counterSue() signal handler; as such, a large number of long-lasting countersuits (again, none of which can be proven to terminate due to the Halting Problem) may use up sufficient resources to prevent the lawsuit loop in main() from initiating new suits, or indeed crash the application program.
- The algorithm chosen for sue() has proven only to work once in a specific case (caldera, microsoft); the general case has been proven neither experimentally nor formally. Furthermore, sue(caledera, microsoft) was selected as the test case for this algorithm because it was a trivial example, and the consultCEO() subroutine was significantly more optimized at the time.
(pardon the formatting, I don't think it's *possible* to nicely indent code onDo daemons dream of electric sleep()?
Let 'im know how you feel:
:)
Blake Stowell of The SCO Group, +1-801-932-5703,
bstowell@sco.com
Be nice, now!
/.: why the hell am I here?
"Eventually, one way or another, linux will be declared some corporations property. It's guaranteed. The more valuable it becomes, the harder people will fight and the more tricks they will use to make sure it does not remain free."
THAT is exactly what SCO is trying to accomplish here.
And it's why they aren't making copyright claims IN COURT, as they'd eventually have to identify WHAT it is they own the copyright on that Linux is infringing on.
Which they don't want to do.
This attack is an end run on the GPL, something no doubt Ransome Love (who HATED the GPL) helped cook up, whereby the code remains "free" but to use it free of FEAR, you have to buy SCO's license...
Corporatism != Free Market
IIRC, SCO released a statement regarding the whole GPL issue (SCO distributed the kernel with the copyrighted code under GPL, therefore it must bless the distribution of said code) saying that they are not held to the GPL because they weren't aware at the time that the infringing code was in the kernel.
Couldn't Red Hat or any other distributor use a similar argument? If they used the kernel in good faith, unaware of the alleged infringement, aren't they just as 'innocent' as SCO when it comes to the distribution of a tainted kernel?
Red Hat sort of shot themselves in the foot, I think, by launching a counter-suit before making an official offer to remove code that SCO claimed was infringing. When they end up in court, it would have looked much better for Red Hat to have offered to fix the infringement and have SCO deny that offer than to have just flat out refused SCO's claim and instead launch the injunction.
According to a statement by McBride in May (wish I still had the lin), The canopy group owns %85 of the company (which as I understand it, can be turned into public stock, if they wanted to go that route). You're absolutely right. The only real way to buy SCO would be to convince them to sell.
This signature has Super Cow Powers
Because it's not just the code they claim to own.
They claim to own the concepts behind the code. They claim to own all works derived from their concepts.
If the code were replaced they would claim to own the replacement code as well.
And the fact they won't reveal the code isn't helping.
If SCO's future is as bleak as everyone here seems to believe, then its stock is currently ridiculously over-valued. (It's up > 1000% over the last year.) Sounds like a prime candidate for a short sell to me. The latest numbers on Short interest (available here) indicate that short sales have spiked over the previous month, but are still at a relatively low ratio to the daily float. In other words, the players haven't yet jumped on this one in a big way. It would be particularly satisfying to turn a tidy profit as the stock of these bastards goes to zero.
do some research before you throw insults around.
wikipedia
Reclaim Democracy
The supreme court decision
According to the same site (yahoo finance) Red Hat (market cap $1.14B) has about $80.0 M in cash. Breaking the bank to buy an unprofitable dog of a company seems like a bad proposition to me. You could buy a lot of lawyers with that money.
Don't drop the soap, Tommy!
The Linux community does not believe in IP laws, but that does not make them code thiefs. They belive in a licience that does not allow any one person or organization to own any code they write.
Speak for yourself, please. Just because I use and work on code licensed under GPL doesn't mean that I don't respect the intellectual property licensing predilections of others.
The whole point of the Free Software/Open Source movement, to my way of thinking, is to create a corpus of intellectual property that is and remains extremely free. As you say, it is not about ripping off other people's copyrights.
- jon
Ganymede, a GPL'ed metadirectory for UNIX
I am sure you meant DDO$ right? (distrubuted denial of dollars)