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Razor Blade Games?

Oxygen99 writes "There's a story on the BBC News website regarding the financial impact on game developers of the next generation of consoles. The article states that while the cost of producing games increases exponentially as new technology comes online, consumer prices stay approximately the same, leading to an unsustainable financial environment for many small developers. With many small development teams already hurting from the crippling costs of development for the X-Box, GameCube and PlayStation 2, what happens when the X-Box2 or Playstation 3 arrives? Are the days of small scale game development over? Will we ever see a new Jeff Minter? Will the games industry go down the route of the razor manufacturers where consoles are almost given away with the games?"

77 of 347 comments (clear)

  1. Pressure = opportunity by TopShelf · · Score: 5, Insightful

    When economic pressures like this get built up, that provides an opportunity for someone to deliver a solution to some of these problems that reduces cost and/or time of development. For example, rather than producing Hollywood-caliber graphics on a custom basis for each game, perhaps that function is better served by standalone companies that create characters and associated animations that game developers can license for use.

    Bottom line is that the demand side will determine what happens here - if the market can sustain higher prices for games, the current trend could continue for a while. If a big-budget game flops dramatically, however, you'll see a restructuring of the process that could result in a major shakeout within the industry...

    --
    Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
    1. Re:Pressure = opportunity by Cap'n+Canuck · · Score: 4, Interesting

      When economic pressures like this get built up, that provides an opportunity for someone to deliver a solution to some of these problems that reduces cost and/or time of development.

      What you're talking about here is a GDE (Games Development Environment). It SOUNDS like a great idea, but I don't think so. It would mean that every game coming out of the pipe would be the same, homogeneous product, using the same libraries, graphics, sounds, whatever. Blech.

    2. Re:Pressure = opportunity by Monkelectric · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Agreed! Fundamental business model changes are at hand, but I think they'll be a tad bit different then what you suggest.

      What has been the trend in all entertainment venues right now? Movies? One of the worst years for movies, average drop of is HUGE. Games? Things could be better. Music? Teetering on bankrupcy.

      For whatever reason (bad economy?), consumers are a *little* smarter about what they're purchasing. People are tired of mindless teen movies, boring first person shooters, and bullshit pop music. Now I'm not claiming that every last consumer has wisened up, but that enough are atleast to reduce profits to critical levels.

      We are at a low low LOW for creativity on all of these mediums. Normally, companies expect a ceartin ammount of idiots will buy a shitty product no matter what. But now, people hop on the internet, talk to their friends, and now you only need to know someone who knows someone who tells you a game is bad. "Yea dude, this guy I know bought red faction, its fucking lame."

      I think what is going to happen is a market is going to be created for Independant movies/games/music. independant music is already here. I'm hearing *good* new inovative music and it just takes a little work to find it. I get to reject corpratism, I get to hear *good* music cheaper then I would, and good artists get my money directly.

      A few years from now? I expect independant games / movies should start to show up. However, thats just my hope. It could be that once the economy loosens up, people will go right back to buying shit. But I have hope :)

      --

      Religion is a gateway psychosis. -- Dave Foley

    3. Re:Pressure = opportunity by SomeoneGotMyNick · · Score: 5, Funny

      every game coming out of the pipe would be the same, homogeneous product, using the same libraries, graphics, sounds, whatever.

      You just described the standing state of Shoot 'em Up Games(tm) for the past two years.

    4. Re:Pressure = opportunity by AKAImBatman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, I think coding is far more of a problem for consoles than graphics. Graphics ARE a big deal, but a good art studio can chuck them out pretty fast. In the future we may even get around to laser scanning real objects. Hire a cheap sculpter, contract with a laser scanning company and BAM!, cheap graphics.

      On the coding side tho, programmers are still expected to build 3D engines from scratch. This is made worse on consoles, because you're usually programming the hardware directly with very few APIs to help you out (i.e. OpenGL). Even with APIs, a GOOD 3D engine is expensive to develop. That's why Id and Epic are able to make a fortune licensing Quake and Unreal engines. Yet you still have very expensive debug cycles. I truly expect to see more advanced languages (such as Java) start appearing on consoles in the near future. Even if we're talking about C# on the XBox, it would be a HUGE savings in development and debugging. Get a few companies leveraging that savings by creating and licensing best of breed 3D engines, and you'll cut development time for games back down to more reasonable levels.

    5. Re:Pressure = opportunity by danila · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I bet many people are thinking about whom they can sue instead. ;)

      But honestly, it's a brilliant idea. :) Some companies have already developed parametric character models. If we are to believe Valve, all scientists in HL2 will look different. And the upcoming Sims 2 will feature even greater variability. Improve this technology a bit, add extra controls, easier tools and you solved the problem of designing new characters. Want an evil villain? Move some sliders (ugly - 70%, evil - 100%, old - 60%, crazy - 80%, smart - 65%). :) A producer of the original system can update this a couple of time, until they can make completely realistic models that can be simplified automatically as necessary.

      The same can be done for other objects. Recently the Driver 3 developers said that their biggest cost is designing the world, even though most of the buildings are still just empty boxes. The solution is similar - create a parametric function-based object called "house" that could be tweaked from igloo to WTC. :) Same with objects. Finally write a world generator that would create a random world filled with these objects. Voila. All problems solved.

      --
      Future Wiki -- If you don't think about the future, you cannot have one.
    6. Re:Pressure = opportunity by mbourgon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yeah - except that a lot of this already happens. There's a physics engine (Havoc?) used by a lot of people. AI has been reused. A lot of games already license an engine. Take a look at Gamasutra.com or Game Developer for more details.

      And while I'm at it - this article really overstates things. Yes, it can take more people to develop for consoles. But games can still be built by small groups, and the games can be A titles. It's about not reinventing the wheel - look at some of the mods out there. Built by small teams that have the engine already. Remember, while eye candy helps, it's all about the gameplay.

      --
      "Sometimes a woman is a kind of religion, she can save your soul & set you free from all your sins" - Bad Examples
    7. Re:Pressure = opportunity by mausmalone · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd hate to paraprhase Dave Perry, since he hasn't had a great track record, but he said that a game developer must have control over every pixel on the screen at all times.

      he was... uh... referring to the decision to use a software polygon engine in the early versions of Messiah, IIRC... but it's a good point nonetheless.

      I've played a lot of games with randomly-generated worlds, and while the variation sounds like a boon, it just ends up becoming tired and boring. Think of Gran Turismo (to pick a popular example). Remember coming out of the roadways at the end of the SS Rt. 5 stage, rising back up onto the highway straightaway. Remember how it felt like you were soaring, as you broke out of a series of tight turns in a confined space and started rocketing down a straightaway at 200 mph in a wide-open space?

      You can't have that in a randomly-generated game... there's no experience.. things aren't planned.. they're just there. There's no personality to it, no cohesion in design.

      Now, I get what you're saying about using random world generator to take all of the extreme effort of crafting a play environment, but then you lose all control over the world itself. The play isn't crafted any more. The world has no personality.

      The only exception I've seen is Animal Crossing, but that's because you contribute to the world's personality so much, that it doesn't matter if the world is a little odd. Your environment doesn't play as big a role in the game as it does in others.

      Now, randomly generated graphics... that's a great idea. How about completely randomly generated trees? Give a few parameters to work off of, and a seed for a random number generator. This way, it'll generated randomly instead of being modeled, and will look the same every time. There's great opportunity for streamlining graphics production, but the actual play environment is an expertly tailored thing, and randomization would only screw it up.

      --
      -=-=-=-=-=
      I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
    8. Re:Pressure = opportunity by DonGar · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Having looked into starting a gaming company personally, it's already really, really hard to do. Especially for consoles.

      It requires millions of dollars investment to produce the first game. Our estimates were $3 million of the game we had in mind (for the PS/2 using a from scratch engine).

      There are a variety of ways to get money, but it's definatly not possible to do it nights and weekends, or in a garage. A lot of this is the control that the console makers have over every aspect of the game release.

      They get to decide if you CAN release, and they get a big chunk of every game sold (bigger than the developer). The result is that you are forced into only doing blockbuster style games with heavy development costs. No $10 cheapies that are simple but fun are allowed. Nothing that doesn't fit into the model they are working with.

      The most common way to get funding (and distribution) is to go through one of the big game labels. You sign contracts similar to the record industry. They fund your development, and you have to pay them back out of your sales. They are also conservative on what they will back, and don't like it when you try something new. After all, if you are trying something different, you might fail and not be able to pay back the 3 million you owe them.

      Development companies often lose money. They are usually happy to just pay everyones salary during the development cycle, and then break even. Only with a mega-hit can you hope to really make money on the game.

      Low end independant PC games on the other hand can be totally different, and are much more interesting to me.

      --
      plus-good, double-plus-good
  2. I hope they start giving away the consoles. by mikeophile · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's too hard to make Beowulf clusters from old Gillettes.

  3. Nope - vis a vis Bookwork by cspenn · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Smaller shops will likely continue to innovate, especially in new markets like cell phones and PDAs, where compactness of code and short development cycles pay off quickly. You will not likely see Doom XXVIII on your Samsung NPH-3500 phone, but you might just see Bookworm coming soon.

    Don't be fooled into thinking that consoles and PC are - forgive the pun - the only game in town.

  4. The theorem is simple by imperator_mundi · · Score: 2, Informative

    Increased maturity of a market => less place for little player.

  5. Movie industry parallel by MagPulse · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I see the game industry moving along much the same path as the movie industry did. Today, independent films are still made, movie enthusiasts support them, and they are a great way for individuals or small groups to get noticed and get on large projects that make real money.

    I am hoping that moviegoers are getting saturated by the overly formulaic movies they're being given, and will shift the focus back to smaller budget films that are more original. But I don't see anything fundamentally wrong with the movie biz right now. For those that crave original, small-budget films, there's no shortage of them.

    1. Re:Movie industry parallel by TheOneEyedMan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The number of books published by small presses dwarfs the number if independant films. A major reason is that they are far cheaper to produce. To the extent that games aer like movies and not like books, there will be far fewer of them. In any case, the independent films only start that way. By the time the beauty pagent ends and a few of them have been chosen for mass distribution, the average member is far more commercial.

      --
      Reality is that which refuses to go away when I stop believing in it. --Phillip K. Dick (remove SPAM to email)
    2. Re:Movie industry parallel by imperator_mundi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The parallel holds just partially... the technical aspects of doing movies don't change as fast as the videogame developement methods... I mean camera operators are not required to re-learn filming techniques every 3 or 4 years.

    3. Re:Movie industry parallel by jayayeem · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem with this parallel, is that advancing technology has made it cheaper to produce professional looking movie, by using digital cameras and editing suites. It has actually reduced the number of people needed to make a movie.

      With games, the advancing technology has made it more expensive to create a professional looking game. A professional looking game requires more people today than it did 10 or even 5 years ago.

      --
      I metamoderate, therefore I am
  6. SDK by gsparrow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How much does it take to get started developing on these systems?

    1. Re:SDK by macrom · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not only does it take good money, but I know at least Sony and Nintendo want you to submit business plans, have financial and corporate backing, have already entered talks with a publisher, have a design for a game and also have some code maybe running on a PC to show for it. They don't let just any Joe Shmoe with money call up and order a dev kit. Things may have changed, but this is how I understood it to work a few years ago.

      On a side note related to this, I really wish Sony would resurrect the Yaroze program. It was a great way to get into Playstation development. I would be interested to hear how many people broke into the industry, either as individuals or companies, through that program. Maybe it was such a small number that Sony decided it wasn't worth it.

    2. Re:SDK by iansmith · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Take the PS2 for example.

      For starters you need a $15,000 development station.

      Then you need to licence the SDK for an amount Sony will decide.

      Then for each game you need to spend about half a million dollars to get it approved and tested by Sony. They can reject you for any reason and make you pay to have it tested until they are happy.

      Then you pay Sony $8 for each game you sell, plus the costs to produce the special CD's the PS2 needs.

      Then do the same with Microsoft and Nintendo.

      Don't forget several programmers, artists and people to figure out the maze of licencing procedures for each console.

      Making console games is in no way something a single person can do, sadly. The consoles are VERY tightly controlled.

    3. Re:SDK by dackroyd · · Score: 5, Interesting

      -1 Wrong:

      Then you need to licence the SDK for an amount Sony will decide.
      You need approval for your game from Sony in order to buy the development kit - this is to prevent the PS2 market being flooded with crap. Once you have your kit, all the Sony tools are free. (but not as good as the third party tools from Sn Systems.)

      Then for each game you need to spend about half a million dollars to get it approved and tested by Sony. They can reject you for any reason and make you pay to have it tested until they are happy.
      The testing procedure is paid for by the license fees per disk. Again this is a hurdle to prevent crap being released on the market - or would you prefer publishers to be able to publish buggy games in order to hit their deadlines ?

      Then do the same with Microsoft and Nintendo.
      Your first game doesn't have to be released on all three consoles - why not just target one.

      The consoles are VERY tightly controlled.
      Because there are already too many professional games companies making games for the market to support - it is not in anybodies interest in the market for amateurs to flood the market with sub-standard crap.

      --
      "Free software as in beer, copy protection as in racket" - Telsa Gwynne
    4. Re:SDK by Aadain2001 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think you forgetting a great market that moved away from this kind of mentality and has not collapsed under a pile of crap games: the pc game market. Sure, they have crap games out there. But they don't survive. The good games become popular and the companies that make them produce more games. The setup of the pc game market does not prevent a 15 year old super coding genious from producing the Next Great Thing in his basement while still allowing for large companies like Blizzard et. al. to produce greate and not so greate games in mass. The console world can take a page from the pc game market and let the consumers decide what is a good game and what is a bad game.

      --
      Space for rent, inquire within
  7. Give us more, and make it hurt! by Wvyern · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There will always be a high demand for the latest and greatest games/consoles from the pre-teen to the post-teen age groups. The thing is, we have gotten a taste, starting with Pong, and will never get enough until you jack us straight in, and get a virtual reality that is more than a messy abortion. Addiction is a word that comes to mind, and people will do anything to pay for their addictions.

    --
    "Sheep just follow the easiest path and run from scary noises and intimidating creatures." - Me
    1. Re:Give us more, and make it hurt! by kfg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Those of us who are older may have a slightly different point of view though. The only games that I play regularly now are years old, Grand Prix Legends, Red Baron 3D, Age of Empires. Throw in a bit of replay of Grim Fandango. Not to mention the classics like Asteroids.

      None of these require the latest screaming system to play, yet they all still represent the Best of Class.

      I havn't purchased a game in years, not becasue of cost. Not because of lack of interest. Simply because I haven't been presented with a game superiour to those I already play.

      It wouldn't take much to grab a few hundred more bucks out of my pocket, but the latest gee whiz bang twist to the same tired old formula isn't going to do it for me.

      Give me games instead of technology and I'll buy them.

      KFG

  8. Golden age died along time ago by msgmonkey · · Score: 3, Informative

    The days of the 8-bit micro was the golden era when it came to small developers(otherwise known as geeks in bed-rooms/garages/basements). You'd have the same person doing the coding, graphics and sound and still have something that did n't look amaturish compared to the big guys. You just cant do that these days, and especially so because graphics and sound have much more prominence then playability did back in the day.

    I still remember those 1.99 games being available at my local newsagent. Ahh let the nostalgia begin :)

  9. It has already happened with Inkjet Printers by BagOBones · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Just look at printers. You can purchase a new printer for nearly the same cost or sometimes LESS then purchasing new ink cart.

    --
    EA David Gardner -"... but the consumers have proven that actually what they want is fun."
  10. Consider the Film Industry by plasticmillion · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I see a lot of parallels between video game development and the film industry. As the market has become larger and more global, consumer expectations have risen accordingly. The result is that the biggest moneyspinners in the future are likely to be "blockbuster" games written by larger companies with big budgets and teams (this trend is already abundantly clear).

    To me this is good news for gamers. True, it will result in a lot of lowest common denominator crap. But this analogy suggests a lot of positive aspects as well. For one, I personally happen to like blockbuster movies, and I'm glad that the market is such that someone can justify spending $300 mio or so on the LOTR trilogy (to name just one example).

    At the same time, there is space for the little guy in the film industry to some extent. Innovative filmmakers can still make a name for themselves on a superlow budget (e.g. Clerks. In my view this applies even more to the gaming world, where a clever idea can be a huge hit without requiring dozens of programmers and designers to implement (consider Tetris).

    Anything that makes really stunning high-budget output possible is more than fine by me.

  11. Smaller developers... by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Should develop smaller games. For every Grand Theft Auto 3, there's a Tetris.

    The Big Hollywood style productions can be handled by the huge companies, while the smaller companies can do innovative things like games that actually have gameplay value as opposed to eyecandy value.

    Gameplay value is timeless and largely not driven by technology. If need be, license the high end graphics from someone else rather than reinvent the wheel. But someone should be working on making games playable, re-playable, and fun.

    A prime area for small-time, moderate budget development? AI. *Good* AI, that learns and adapts, for example, is something I'd like to see. AI that gets lazy and complacent and forgets sometimes, for that human feel, and to prevent things from getting too difficult.

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
    1. Re:Smaller developers... by Rinikusu · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Indeed. And with increases in technology and programming API's, even independent developers can get more done with less "effort". Stuff like DirectX and OpenGL help free up some of the resources that would normally be used in creating custom API's, and, as you mentioned, various 3rd party engines are available to use so the developer can concentrate on gameplay, storyline, or even art-look.

      Consider Puppygames.com's Alien Flux. They produced a full-on arcade style game in 6 months, with just 2 guys working mostly part-time. It's written in Java, using OpenGL and a wrapper library they happily "give away" (lwjgl), and runs under Windows and Linux, and soon MacOS X (they seem to have troubles finding and keeping a MacOS X person with the expertise/time to keep the library up-to-date as the primary developers are x86 only). Is it Doom 3? No. Is it fun? Yes. Definately so. It's proof that you don't need a 10 million dollar budget to produce a good game.

      Other areas for small-time developers: Mindless action games. Puzzle games (see popcap.com). I'm even toying with the idea of a small, episodic RPG's (think monthly-bimonthy episodes at low cost (say, $5-10 module or use some sort of subscription).

      Anyway, I don't think the days of the independent developer are over. In fact, I think with the wider acceptance of Flash, J2ME, etc, the barrel has opened even wider.

      --
      If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
  12. this happened in computer dev as well by 514x0r · · Score: 2, Insightful

    things get bigger and more complex and so do the development environments. the big get bigger in this scenerio--for a while. there's almost always a new development--ie *nix--to bring things back to earth. in the end a good idea can overcome the cost of easy development.

    --

    !(^((ri)|(mp))aa$)
  13. Re:Consoles are already given out by Gherald · · Score: 2, Funny

    Not sure if you were trying to be funny or not, but in (pretending?) to miss the point you've sure made a good one of your own.

  14. Voodoo economics by Brahmastra · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why do video game prices have to go up because the the technology is improving? Computers have consistently become more complex, but their prices have been going down. The number of people playing video games is also going up quite rapidly, resulting in more customers for video game companies. Maybe they have to do more development, but that is the same for all new technologies. If video game companies are losing money, it's because of nothing but a crappy business model.

    1. Re:Voodoo economics by Outlyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're talking about two different things, and so-called "Voodoo Economics" has very little to do with this topic at all. That's a Reagan-era term for supply-side economics and deals primarily with fiscal policy.

      Technology on the CONSUMER end is improving, but if technology on the SUPPLIER end does not improve at the same pace, you have an increasing cost industry and consequently higher prices.

      Any imbalance between cost of production and cost to consumers in the market would normally result in price shifts.

      Video game companies are losing money because the cost of doing business has increased while market prices have not. As costs go up, firms will leave the market resulting in an increasingly diminished supply causing prices to go up and so on.

      In the long run, without major improvements on the supply side, the industry would collapse; at least that is what generally accepted microeconomics principles would predict.

      --
      ----------------- "I have a bone to pick, and a few to break." - Refused -------------------
    2. Re:Voodoo economics by shamel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wrong. The article says exactly the oposite. It says the development cost have increased "exponentially" but not consumer price. More customers certainly compensante for some of this but not all. Hence the prediction that the market will restructure in consideration of these economics.

      --
      The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
  15. Small development vs. large development by tambo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    (I think that the answer to this factoid observation is self-evident, but I'll post it anyway.)

    The costs of developing large-scale games only affects the developers of large-scale games. As noted abundantly by others, such games tend to fit certain well-defined genres: RTS, MMORPG, FPS, RPG... indeed, the whole reason we even have and know these acronyms is because the styles of games have become extraordinarily pigeonholed.

    That's not necessarily a bad thing. Take Medal of Honor: Allied Assault - the game only works because gamers have been trained to go along with the scripting and accept the monolithic linearity of the missions. If you do, however, you get a pretty grand experience.

    But the point is this: A few game niches have become so overproduced that independent developers can't hope to compete - but the rest of the market is wide open.

    And what a wide-scale market that is! How many genres have barely been tapped, or not yet invented? How do you even classify something like Popcap's Insaniquarium? Or PaRappa the Rapper, or Dance Dance Revolution? Those are pretty easy games to design and develop, and they're fiercely fun. Window dressing is extra - but for these innovative games, window dressing is secondary to gameplay. (What a novel concept!)

    Bottom line: Independent developers should not mimic Electronic Arts and try to compete in these highly stylized, overbudgeted affairs. But there's plenty of untapped gaming out there, just waiting for someone with a smidge of vision and a touch of imagination. Go get 'em, guys!

    David Stein, Esq.

    --
    Computer over. Virus = very yes.
  16. Alternative business models? by Decaffeinated+Jedi · · Score: 2, Insightful
    On the PC gaming front, we've already seen companies like PopCap Games and GarageGames get around rising design costs by returning to something similar to the shareware model of the early- to mid-1990s, creating relatively simple, inexpensive, fun games. Maybe something similar would work for the console market.

    Oh, who am I kidding? Anything released to the console market without 3D graphics, genuine B-list actors providing the voiceovers, and 16.7 zillion colors is doomed to failure.

    DecafJedi

    --
    DecafJedi
    my weblog: apropos of something
    1. Re:Alternative business models? by Decaffeinated+Jedi · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Good point on reusing engines--even if they aren't cutting edge. After all, that's how Sierra On-Line managed to turn out six or seven best-selling adventure games per year and profit like crazy throughout the late 1980s and early 1990s.

      DecafJedi

      --
      DecafJedi
      my weblog: apropos of something
  17. Small players in the console market? by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There never really was room for small players in the console market. Look at the old Atari days. You had Atari and Activision and them some other big compaines moved in. There where some little guys but not that many and they sort of lived in the cracks that the big boys did not want. Only home computers let little game makers live. Even then if you where a small company starting off you might do better starting with a less popular computer than the Atari, C64, or Apple. Writing for a getting a CoCo game reviewed might have been easier than getting an Apple II game reviewed.
    There is room for small game companies. Just not on the Playstation or the X-Box.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:Small players in the console market? by cosmo7 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Look at the old Atari days.

      More salient than you might think.

      Atari's weakness was that it did not control the games publishers. There was no quality control, consumers were discouraged, and in the end the entire market suffered. When Nintendo and Sega started to reinvent the games console market the first thing they did was to strictly control who was publishing what for their systems.

    2. Re:Small players in the console market? by LWATCDR · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually Atari tried to control game publishers. They even tried to sue Activision. They lost mainly because the 2600 was all off the shelf parts. The couldn't even stop people making clones.
      They tried to put an end to it with the 7800. That machine had an encrytion scheme to prevent third party games from using the imporved features.
      Like I said there has never really been room for the small guy in Consoles.
      BTW some of the worst games came not from third party publishers but from Atari. ET and Pacman did more to tick off 2600 users than anything.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
  18. Re:Consoles are already given out by bludstone · · Score: 2, Informative

    Will you people PLEASE stop perpetuating this rumor.

    The only consoles to be sold at a loss were the Dreamcast and the XBox. The XBox is no longer sold at a loss.

    --

    no .sig
  19. Nintendo is confronting this by GweeDo · · Score: 3, Informative

    Nintendo has feared that this was coming since they decided to create the Gamecube. They saw that more and more we are only getting sequal's and games with a Disney license since they are a sure fire seller. In response to this the former President of Nintendo (the mighty and wise Hiroshi Yamauchi) started a little project called the QFund. It has multiple purpose's, but one of them is to promote the idea of less expensive development (Nintendo has been doing numerous internal things to drop their production costs). The QFund has a few restrictions on it that help to this point. First of all any project gets money from QFund must finish the game in one year. If they go past that point they can loss funding. They also must use GBA connectivity. Some might claim that is a gimmick to get more people using that for Nintendo, but some of us believe this could actually lead to some real innovations :P

    1. Re:Nintendo is confronting this by mrseigen · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nintendo should be confronting this by going around to independent developers that look good and dropping a development kit in their laps. The idea that they attach strings to funding for already-sequelled games as long as they crank them out quick is stupid, and if that's Nintendo's idea of innovation the GameCube will be the last Nintendo system I ever buy.

  20. Old School. by _aa_ · · Score: 2

    I would like to see more development for classic platforms. Despite all the graphics and realism, new games are not neccesarily any more or less fun than games were in the early 90s. The development of emulators such as snes9x make it plausible for regular people to develop their own applications for the snes. It would be very interesting to see open source projects based on older gaming systems instead of the bleeding edge.

    Let the large developers have their bleeding edge. There's no reason that smaller developers can't continue developing on an older system. Or is the gaming community really so shallow that it will always choose the shiniest graphics, and the most dazzling effects over the content and fun of the game?

  21. game engines, pricing, expectations. by AtaruMoroboshi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Game programers should stop re-inventing the wheel and use common game engines, at least for the graphics. I realize that lots of games have been made by liscensing the Quake 3 engine or Unreal engine, this seems like a potential way for smaller developers to have access to reasonably good looking technology to drive the PS3, xbox 2 or N5.

    One of the real problems is that there is little room for games with lower expectations. I'd be really happy to buy a bunch of ten hour games that had less technical wows but much heart, especially if their retail price was reasonable.

    How many gamers do you know that buy the latest games at $50? Most games sold at $50 are the blockbusters that sell to the general public rather than the hardcore gamers. But it's the hardcore gamers who buy more than 1 game every few months. I buy a ton of games but I've learned to be patient and buy games a month or two or even 12 later than the release date, simply to get the game for $20 or less. There is a big market for new games at lower prices that is not being tapped.

    Not everyone has 40 to 80 hours to sink into the latest rpgs and not every game needs to be Final Fantasy VII. I really love the Ikaruga's of this world. Final Fatasy VII cost $35 million to make and had a staff of over 100 people. On the other hand, 95% of Ikaruga was made by THREE people. (For instance, the music was written by the same guy who did the game's background art!)

    I kinda get the feeling that the industry might be heading towards another major evolutionary period, similar to the market crashes of the late atari era... I'm just not sure what it will look like.

    .

    1. Re:game engines, pricing, expectations. by pmz · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not everyone has 40 to 80 hours to sink into the latest rpgs...

      Many older Nintendo RPGs made it a point to advertise "over 100 hours of game play." Now, however, I am finding it really hard to complete an RPG that takes even 40 or 50 hours. I think this is indicative of the greater and more complex time constraints many of us are facing.

      Given that people are now torn by cell phones, PDAs, PCs, gaming consoles, television, cable television, not to mention older avenues, such as magazines, newspapers, and radio, there are less personal resources available for long drawn-out games. Oh shit, I fogot to leave room for family...and politics...well, friends really are optional...nothing gets done at PTA meetings, anyway...it's more important to get a cash loan for a down payment on this crappy wannabe sporty car...gotta be fast with no time left for driving...what do you mean you need to be picked up after practice...don't forget to stop by McDonalds for dinner...fat ass kid expects to be fed... (this isn't my life, I hope, but I think I am seeing this more and more every day in other people)

  22. Misspent Resources by EvilTwinSkippy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    New games don't take exponentially longer to develop. The problem is the black hole of CGI movies. How many games have you played that are simply a series of puzzles in between a boatload of Squarsoftish clips? Are racing games really that much more playable with photorealistic race tracks? I think it's cute that you can see a hockey player's breath, but if you are bitching about budgets, stuff like that is easy to cut.

    What is needed is for game developers to stop throwing money into the photorealistic hole. Anime is a perfectly acceptable graphic style designed for mass production. By reducing the amount of "detail" using artisitic license you can focus more on game play, scripts, and quality assurance.

    --
    "Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival."
    --Dr.W.Edwards Deming
  23. I hope it forces them to make better games... by wirelessbuzzers · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...rather than games with better graphics.

    Something that irks me about recent games is that many of them are unoriginal, have worse-than-average gameplay... and a huge graphics budget.

    For instance, I find that WarCraft III gameplay is much, much worse than StarCraft (could just be my low-end machine with a crappy graphics card), and the heros and other additions don't make the game much more interesting.

    Similarly, Diablo II was probably the most unoriginal RPG I've ever played; the graphics are excellent but the plot is thin and the gameplay is mediocre. (It's damn addictive, tho). Compare the Baldur's Gate series, which has worse graphics and decent gameplay, and a better plot.

    Anyone here ever played Liero? An ancient, free 2d Worms-but-realtime shooter? That game was more fun than many of the FPS games I've played. The graphics were shit, but the controls were responsive, the weapons were balanced (and numerous, and MODable), and the modes were fun.

    I think this article nicely pinpoints the problem with many games today. The graphics teams soak up all the budget, and the guys that write an actual plot into the game, balance it, and adjust the gameplay don't do anything. They add in an assload of really cool spells/weapons/whatever, but then nobody actually uses most of them because a few of them are overpowered.

    Maybe I'm just like those oldtimers ranting for a return to the "good old" days, but I'd like to see creative new FPS, one with nontrivial tactics (haven't seen one since Counterstrike), and for once a well thought-out TBS game. Alpha Centauri was close, but like many games, they put in too many features. The features ended up unbalanced, buggy, and their interactions were poorly thought-out. As a result, play didn't scale well and the AI sucked.

    --
    I hereby place the above post in the public domain.
  24. Re:Easy - send the development to India by Gherald · · Score: 2, Funny

    > send the development to India

    "Fight!"

    Madhusudan Vishnu vs. Muhammad Amin, round two.

  25. Why I Can't make a DOOM 3 clone by Peterius · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I've been programming for many many years on many different platforms, I'm an expert in C and x86 assembly and I've done a lot of stuff with OpenGL and a good amount with DirectX not to mention being proficient in just about any area of programming you could think of. The problem is that a game engine like DOOM 3 is not a stand-alone work. It is rather the evolution of the first DOOM engine through all the iterations of Quake. I could write the first DOOM engine. I could probably even write something like Quake 2. But as a small developer, I cannot possibly break into this market when I'm competing with people who are evolving and reusing code that they've had for years. They just keep making it a little better. I can't do that because I don't have years and years of succesful 3d projects to draw from and improve upon.

    No small developer can jump 6 levels of technology to get to the current state-of-the-art and compete with large developing firms. Programming, like everything, is an iterative process; so as games get larger(code-size) and more complex with more and better technology packed into them, it will be harder and harder for small developers to break in the market. Most of them end up buying a decent 3d engine from someone else. And with faster graphics cards and games like Warcraft 3 and PlanetSide, all games are beginning to rely on evolved technology. A small developer's game (whether its an FPS or an RTS or an MMORPG) can't compete with the beauty and speed of a large company's engine that has been revised and rewritten and composed of a multitude of high speed algorithms and computing tricks that have been drawn from a large code base. Which relegates us all to the realm of shareware...or, on the bright side, perhaps open source community projects.

    1. Re:Why I Can't make a DOOM 3 clone by Naysayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is not as true as you think. There has been some code sharing in the Doom / Quake series, usually it goes in pairs (Doom -> Doom 2, Quake -> Quake 2, etc).

      Quake was basically made from scratch, Doom code was not used. Quake 3 was basically made from scratch, Quake 2 code was not used (much). Doom 3 was basically made from scratch.

      What you say is only now starting to be true (from here on, we probably won't be doing all so much "start from scratch" programming work). But it's not the reason why you can't make something of the quality level of Quake 3 or Doom 3.

      The thing that *is* getting re-used, built and improved upon, is Carmack's (and other peoples') understanding of and experience with 3D. If you can't just sit down and write Quake 3, you just don't have enough programming experience yet. Quake 3 is actually not hard to write these days. The challenge in making a game that looks at least as good as Q3 is in getting people to do good art.

    2. Re:Why I Can't make a DOOM 3 clone by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've been programming for many many years on many different platforms, I'm an expert in C and x86 assembly and I've done a lot of stuff with OpenGL and a good amount with DirectX not to mention being proficient in just about any area of programming you could think of. The problem is that a game engine like DOOM 3 is not a stand-alone work. It is rather the evolution of the first DOOM engine through all the iterations of Quake. I could write the first DOOM engine. I could probably even write something like Quake 2. But as a small developer, I cannot possibly break into this market when I'm competing with people who are evolving and reusing code that they've had for years. They just keep making it a little better. I can't do that because I don't have years and years of succesful 3d projects to draw from and improve upon.

      The Doom 3 engine isn't an example of code reuse, though it is an example of learning from past projects. It's also an example of most of the code being done by one person in a fairly short amount of time. Oh, and of the slow shift from C and x86 assembly to C++.

      No small developer can jump 6 levels of technology to get to the current state-of-the-art and compete with large developing firms.

      There's far more information available to developers today than when these people started. Furthermore, the Doom, Quake, and Quake 2 source is all available as well. Many people have already taken the Quake engine beyond Quake 2's capabilities from a graphics standpoint. Id isn't a large development team, either, they have more artists than developers by far, and if you want decent artists for your game the nearest community college can supply a never-ending group of people that will work for next to nothing.

      Programming, like everything, is an iterative process; so as games get larger(code-size) and more complex with more and better technology packed into them, it will be harder and harder for small developers to break in the market. Most of them end up buying a decent 3d engine from someone else.

      and being able to license technology allows small developers to break in more quickly, as well. Valve broke through by licensing id's technology and then rewriting a large amount of the code. Once they had their first game shipped, they started their own engine in-house, and licensed code for the physics engine. I'm sure if there's a Half-Life 3 some day, we'll see that Valve developed their own physics engine after Half-Life 2 shipped, as well.

      And with faster graphics cards and games like Warcraft 3 and PlanetSide, all games are beginning to rely on evolved technology.

      What's the evolved technology in WarCraft 3? I'm not even sure if PS has any evolved technology, either.

      A small developer's game (whether its an FPS or an RTS or an MMORPG) can't compete with the beauty and speed of a large company's engine that has been revised and rewritten and composed of a multitude of high speed algorithms and computing tricks that have been drawn from a large code base. Which relegates us all to the realm of shareware...or, on the bright side, perhaps open source community projects.

      Where do you think companies like id got their start? Unreal and Quake were both developed by companies that started in the shareware business. Blizzard started as a console developer, and is pretty much wholly owned by a much larger company. Valve was started by an ex-MS employee with a good amount of money in the bank. 3D Realms has been developing Duke Nukem Forever, well, forever, on money they earned as a shareware developer.

      Design good games and worry about making it pretty with later iterations if you really have problems making Quake 3 or Doom 3 quality graphics on your first time out. Hell, I'll build Pong clones if that's what it takes to make sure my physics and graphics are accurate.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    3. Re:Why I Can't make a DOOM 3 clone by Minna+Kirai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I could write the first DOOM engine. I could probably even write something like Quake 2.

      I could probably write something like Quake 2... oh wait, I've got the whole Quake2 source code right here! Nevermind.

      If you're a small developer, the excuse of not having a basis to start from doesn't hold up. Carmack has graciously released his code to the public well before it became fully obselete.

      As mentioned in other responses, the majority of the work for a new game is in graphic/level resources. The fact that your binaries are GPL won't hurt your commercial prospects very much- customers still have to pay to play the game experience you've designed.

      (And if the code you do change is GPL, then you have the added potential benefit of leveraging changes made by other small game developers)

  26. You mean Bust-A-Move by yerricde · · Score: 2, Informative

    Snood is a nearly-exact knockoff of Taito's Puzzle Bobble: Bust-A-Move, played only by players who are unwilling to either buy a console or install an emulator to get the Real Thing.

    But yes, I get your point that simple games such as Bust-A-Move can be fun without requiring too much of a budget. The problem here is finding that killer game formula, a needle in a haystack.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  27. large publishers emerge, just like movies or books by *weasel · · Score: 2, Informative


    consoles publishing is very similar to that of mainstream movies, print, and pc gaming. (independent pc gaming is fairly healthy now, but is about as 'popular' as art-house movie theatres)

    a console has a barrier for entry - just like getting your film into a loews cineplex, getting your PC game into CompUSA, or getting your book into Barnes and Nobles.

    -developers- can remain small - but small publishers evaporate.

    this is not a new twist in gaming, it's an emergent trend from the last 10 years. certainly, it's a market that costs money to break into. you either have it independently, or you pitch for it.

    what does it mean for the industry?

    well it nearly guarantees that games will continue to be as derivative as hollywood, and the ny times fiction list.

    Anything remotely 'new' will get beaten into the ground in long-running strings of sequels (gta, doom, die hard, and Tom Clancy novels are not so different)

    Innumerable 'knockoffs' will get published to try to ride the wake of what is 'new', and maybe once every 4 years something really cool and different from the norm comes out.

    but it will quickly be emulated, immitated, and desecrated.

    will it go the razor blade sales model?

    no. that's ridiculous. the razor-blade sales model relies on producing inexpensive pieces, and packaging them as an expensive whole. (even with 4 blades in a refill, gilette is making money hand over fist - even on the cute handle)

    Nintendo has shown that using your console as a loss-leader is not necessary (they make money on each console as well as each game) their lack of market share in the US and Europe is more directly due to nintendo's tight control over game developers, and their resultant small selection of games. microsoft and sony resorted to dumping, to try to capture large chunks of the market. with the new consoles becoming more and more complex, and incorporating more and more general functions - they most certainly will -not- be 'given' away. (xbox2 and ps3 almost certainly will carry pvr functionality)

    they may be sold at a marginal loss, so long as there is healthy competition in the market, but it would never come down to handing someone a console. primarily because there would then be no 'attachment' to the title. everyone would own every console in short order. What xbox/ps2 owner would pass up wind waker or sunshine if they didn't have to pay for the GC? likewise with ps2 owners buying halo, and xbox owners buying gta:vice city. and if there's no brand loyalty - well then who's to say that MS will -ever- get their money back from game sales to support eating the cost of the console? particularly from the 'casual' gaming market - who would buy maybe a half dozen games. (and most likely, the 2 best from each main system). 2 games does not cover MS loss on the xbox, or Sony's on the ps2.

    so what -does- this mean?

    it does mean the end of originality on the store shelf - but that's been not-so-slowly happening since the early 90s.

    perhaps if electronic distribution catches on, then this trend can be avoided - but i'm not holding my breath.

    --
    // "Can't clowns and pirates just -try- to get along?"
  28. Re:Enter The Matrix? by vasqzr · · Score: 3, Interesting


    That's not what he means.

    Let's say company A makes characters. Company B can either buy them or sub-contract them to create new characters for their games.

    Therefore, letting the game company worry about the game itself. This is commonly done with sound effects and music. (outsourcing, more than licensing though)

  29. Re:Consoles are already given out by nelsonal · · Score: 3, Informative

    XBoxes are still sold at a loss (remember that retailers do make a profit on those units figure MS gets less than $150 per X-box). I'd guess that the cost of a unit is around $200, it was $300+ when introduced. The whole program, including games sales (which are quite profitable) generated almost $1 billion in losses for MS this year (ending in June). Many consoles are sold at a loss initially, since the manufacturer knows that eating a few months of losses might give them a year of profits on the back end, when a better console might still be sold, so they tend to pack the best stuff they think they can resonably get away with at the time.

    --
    Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
  30. Re:Indie games? Like what? by MagPulse · · Score: 2, Informative
    True, there are no indie console games. But it's also hard to rent VHS/DVD copies of indie movies. Those interested take the effort to make going out to independent movie houses a part of their life, and people who want indie games need to make PCs part of their lives. Some examples of indie PC games:
  31. Re:Two things will emerge by Zigg · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They say that only 5 percent of game players today complete a game to a developer intended "finish." So clearly a change toward shorter games would be beneficial.

    My biggest problem with this change is that games are getting too short. If I don't finish a story-oriented game, the real reason is that the game has suddenly become extremely difficult for no good reason and frustrating, not because I lack the patience to finish it.

  32. Middleware is the Solution by Frogmanalien · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Solutions will arrive automatically. Thankfully we've already seen the start of this via Middleware - software by a third party which is hired/loaned and used for development. PS2 and Xbox have successfully helped build an entire middleware community and a new source of revenue. Now small bedroom programmers can either be responsible for middleware or the "end game" software.
    Let us not lament- Sony is the current market leader and also happens to be the only manufacterer who opened up their console for easy programming (anyone remember the Sony Yazoo (or whatever it was called) for the PSX - a home development system) and is also selling Linux kits without a free cease and desist letter to anyone who uses linux on their PSX.
    There's still space out there for bedroom developers, it's just that bedroom developers are changing!

    Frogmanalien

    --
    The only thing that saves us from the bureaucracy is its inefficiency (Eugene McCarthy)
    1. Re:Middleware is the Solution by InferiorFloater · · Score: 2, Informative

      That would be a small bedroom programmer with the thousands of dollars neccesary to purchase development equipmenet and/or a middleware license. Licensing Renderware would cost you like $200,000. Licensing Havok would cost you another 50k probably. Unless said small bedroom was in a really big mansion, it'd be unlikely that its occuopant could afford the extremely large fixed costs associated with console development.

      --

      ---------
      Get back to me when my brain starts working.
  33. Some observations. by fondue · · Score: 2

    Development costs aren't growing 'exponentially'.

    Tools are improving. Efficiency is improving. Developers can now farm out music, art creation, testing, etc. to contractors. They can buy in engines and middleware.

    Furthermore there is no hard-and-fast rule stating that just because a game can eat up $10 million budget, that that is the minimum that has to be spent to make a technically sound, playable and marketable game.

    Further-furthermore, each hardware generation has a larger user base, offsetting the increased costs.

    I do appreciate that it is an expensive business though, and consolidation is probably the wisest course of action for many smaller companies around today.

    'The new consoles could have up to 1,000 times more processing power than current models' is not even worth responding to...

    Oh, and *Jez San* is saying development is too expensive? Then don't pour millions into endlessly protracted projects that then get canned, dumbass!

    --

    Preferences > Homepage > Customize stories on homepage > Authors > Zonk > Uncheck

  34. Looking at the wrong devices by mccalli · · Score: 2
    If the independents can't compete on the consoles or the PC, then they could move to places where they can compete.

    For example, there's a huge boom in Symbian and J2ME devices with the new mobile phones at present. Could code for that - that can't produce the effects which take up all the time on a big-hardware gmae, but it can sill be extremely playable. Sort of back to the late 8-bit/early 16-bit stages.

    The Gameboy Advance can use homebrew cartridges - why not have a crack at writing something for that? It's about up to the standards of the old SNES (I think it's identical except for sound channels, though I'm prepared to be corrected on that), and the old SNES had some truly brilliant games.

    I'd suggest that if the cost of developing for one platform starts heading for the stratosphere, then look around for platforms that don't have that problem.

    Cheers,
    Ian

  35. Re:Enter The Matrix? by ZorinLynx · · Score: 2, Informative

    The problem here is not the characters, but the fact that the games were not willing to explore any new ground story-wise.

    I mean, I remember playing "The Lion King"; all you did was play the storyline of the movie! I already knew exactly everything that was going to happen. Big whoop.

    Now, if they had made it more of an RPG, with an action component, and extended the universe with a new story, THEN it might have been interesting. Combining likeable characters you already know with NEW adventures might have made for quite an improvement!

    But no.. they followed formula, formula, formula. Though I must admit, the ability to throw the other player around in a two player "Chip and Dale" game made it worth every penny at the time. };)

  36. GamePlay VS EyeCandy by holy_smoke · · Score: 2, Insightful

    One thing I am noticing is that games today are, getting way too complex with regards to graphics, geometry, lighting, etc. It takes a TON of time and money to design, build, texture, test, and finalize these worlds. "What's your point you ask?" - Its this: That the gameplay isn't THAT much different today than it was say 5 years ago (exept with AI development), and quite frankly I don't play the game for the eye candy (although that enhances my experience while playing).

    Game enjoyment is all about challenge, goal accomplishment, and interaction with AI in the computer. These are paramount elements, and these costs can be normalized to fairly predictable levels. The eye candy is on the list but not that near the top for me, and yet game developers sink huge dollars into this.

    I really don't "enjoy" Quake III or UnrealTournament2003 any more than Quake II or UnrealTournament1999 except where BOT AI is concerned. This is because the GAMEPLAY has improved because of AI development, not because a building is made of 3000 objects instead of 500.

    Does anyone else feel this way??

    --
    Is the juice worth the sqeeze?
  37. New Jeff Minter by n0wak · · Score: 2, Informative

    Will we ever see a new Jeff Minter?

    Why would we need to see a new Jeff Minter when the current one is single-handedly (well, with some financial support from Lionhead Studios) making a GameCube game right now: Unity.

    Somehow, I doubt that Unity will cost $30 million. Smaller scale game dev is still possible -- so long as you don't want $29 million worth of theatrics, and $1 worth of a game.

  38. good reply... by rmdyer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ok, so I'm having a large reaction to what I feel is a change in the balance of power.

    1. It started with small unknown developers writing games for the PC.

    2. The small unknown developers become giants.

    3. The consoles allow the giants to sell more games to people who don't understand computers.

    4. The giant can no longer afford to develop PC games because they need to put all their development into consoles.

    5. Nobody buys anything but consoles and console games because that is the only thing the developers program for.

    The end...PC gaming DOA.

    What I generally dislike about consoles...

    1. Doesn't allow mouse control.

    2. Doesn't have high-resolution > 1024x768. And even if it did, that doesn't mean much to people who don't have HDTV.

    3. You are locked into the game...no modding.

    4. You can't always freely connect with other large groups over the net without using a system that was developed to monitor your gameplay...like Microsoft's.

    5. How about setting up a 32 player server with a console?

    6. Ever try to backup your console game CD?

    7. Can you upgrade you console system without throwing out the entire box?

    8. Why do you say consoles are easier? PC game interfaces are exactly the same (on screen configuration and controls)?

    9. Consoles are sold separately from PCs. An investment in a console is not an investment in my PC. Why would I do that?

    The end.

    ++more.

    1. Re:good reply... by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 2, Insightful

      3. The consoles allow the giants to sell more games to people who don't understand computers.

      Not everyone buying consoles don't understand computers. In fact, for many gamers it comes down to the simple fact that different game types play better on consoles than computers, and vice versa. I wouldn't play your average RTS on a console, and most FPS games don't work well on consoles, either. Star Wars: KOTOR is the first game that really brings PC-style RPGs to consoles without huge changes to the gameplay.

      4. The giant can no longer afford to develop PC games because they need to put all their development into consoles.

      For many of them most of the development process is cheaper for the PC, and the XBox, for one, offers some easy transition from console to PC (or from PC to console). The biggest effort on the computer is testing different configurations and making sure your control scheme works.

      The end...PC gaming DOA.

      People have been predicting this for a very long time. What usually happens is that PC gaming gets something new that can't easily be reproduced on the consoles for at least a few more years. In many cases, the consoles start catching up to PC gaming only because PC gaming loses a lot of it's originality, which is something we're seeing a lot of people crying about across the board, now.

      What I generally dislike about consoles...

      1. Doesn't allow mouse control.


      Many mice have been available for different consoles over the years, they simply aren't very popular. Personally, I'd much rather have a USB adapter for both my keyboard and my trackball than something developed for the console specifically (because I'm very picky about my keyboard and trackball, partially because I have to use them all day). The XBox offers the keyboard adapter, not sure about mice.

      2. Doesn't have high-resolution > 1024x768. And even if it did, that doesn't mean much to people who don't have HDTV.

      Until people have the TVs, they're not going to bother with the higher resolution. On a computer monitor the higher resolutions make a big difference, whereas on a TV screen they mean almost nothing unless they're used to enhance FSAA.

      3. You are locked into the game...no modding.

      This is changing as well, though mostly with mod chips allowing people to add in various hacks and mods.

      4. You can't always freely connect with other large groups over the net without using a system that was developed to monitor your gameplay...like Microsoft's. ...or EA's, or Blizzard's, or the old Won.net system, etc. GameSpy didn't make all their money from selling software, either.

      5. How about setting up a 32 player server with a console?

      How about setting up a 32 player server for a console? We setup multiple 32 player Quake servers on a single P200. This is why Microsoft chose the model they did. It doesn't take much to run a handful of large servers on one box to host a large number of console players.

      6. Ever try to backup your console game CD?

      A lot of people do. Can't say I've had any problems with CDs, or any other disc format. Overall I've had 2 or 3 CDs get scratched in a way that affected playback, and they were all music CDs (I have about 2x as many music CDs as I do PC game CDs, and about 30x as many music CDs as I do games for the largest of my console game CD collections). Ever try to backup a computer game CD? For a while there it seemed that you needed a new trick with every new game that came along. At least with the consoles once you learn the trick it rarely changes (though with things like GD-ROMs and DVD it's certainly a bit more expensive to get the hardware).

      7. Can you upgrade you console system without throwing out the entire box?

      I can buy a new console for less than the cost of a new graphics card. In fact, I bought my last 3 consoles with money saved from not upgr

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    2. Re:good reply... by pcosta · · Score: 2, Informative


      1. Doesn't allow mouse control.


      PS2 supports USB mice.


      2. Doesn't have high-resolution > 1024x768. And even if it did, that doesn't mean much to people who don't have HDTV.


      Why would you need high res when playing on a TV?
      And current gen consoles do support HDTV, although
      very few games actually use it. Next gen it will be pretty much a standard.


      3. You are locked into the game...no modding.


      Xbox has a hard drive and lots of mods availables.


      4. You can't always freely connect with other large groups over the net without using a system that was developed to monitor your gameplay...like Microsoft's.


      Sony doesn't monitor online gamers at all.


      5. How about setting up a 32 player server with a console?


      How about it? Most console online games use one machine as server.


      6. Ever try to backup your console game CD?


      There's piracy on consoles, if that's what you mean.


      7. Can you upgrade you console system without throwing out the entire box?


      Can you upgrade your PC spending less than $300?


      8. Why do you say consoles are easier? PC game interfaces are exactly the same (on screen configuration and controls)?


      Installation, compatibility problems, patches...


      9. Consoles are sold separately from PCs. An investment in a console is not an investment in my PC. Why would I do that?


      So you bought the latest greatest graphics card because it improves the performances of your word processor?

  39. It's not just computer games by cellocgw · · Score: 2

    These software folks are just beginning to feel the disaster which hit pinball years ago. As pins went electronic (CPU-based operation vs solenoids and cam wheels), the development and production costs went up and up. And just like vids, the perception was that people wanted ever more features and fancy doo-dads in their pinball game. But for some strange reason, humans can't deal with the fact that a quarter is not worth what it was in 1960 :-( . So even tho' an inflation-adjusted game of pinball should cost at least a couple bucks, operators are limited to charging 50 or 75 cents per game. This is one of the main reasons pins are disappearing from the scene. In fact, there's only one company still making them -- and it ain't Bally, Williams, or Gottlieb (or Chicago Coin for you cognoscenti out there :-) ).

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
  40. Disney's control of its characters by yerricde · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Now, if they had made it more of an RPG, with an action component

    Hmmm... possibly like the Mana engine... smells good.

    and extended the universe with a new story, THEN it might have been interesting.

    For one thing, Disney might have dictated terms to Virgin that prohibited writing new story lines because any new story lines might conflict with the direction Disney wanted to take the characters in The Lion King II: Simba's Pride.

    Better would have been to do like Rare did in Goldeneye for N64: missions inspired by the movie, with more depth in each mission than was explored in the movie, and a couple extra missions that might as well have been "deleted scenes" in the movie. Completely linear levels where the player dies instantly if he leaves the track, such as if he jumps off the ostrich in the "Can't Wait to Be King" mission of The Lion King for Super NES, are a Bad Thing.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  41. Choose the GamePark! by BFKrew · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If you are looking for a handheld console that has a free SDK, can be used with any development environment on Linux, Mac or Windows then have a look at the GamePark 32 which is available in Korea and soon into Europe.

    I recommend looking at the GP32 site though as it has better descriptions, reviews, news and gives you a great overview of what is possible. It is the first 'Open' console that's been produced and already has quite a 'bedroom' community that has sprung up around it.

    Not only it is open, it just happens to be the most powerful handheld console out there and there's ports of Doom, Heretic on it already as well as Atari ST, Gameboy, SMS, PC Engine and Megadrive emulators. It has a built in MP3 player and you can also plays DivX movies if you pay a small fee (3.50/$6) for the player. All the commerical games for it are very cheap too - most in the 7/$12 bracket.

    In short it is superb and runs on standard Smart Media Cards so once you've bought the console you aren't tied to buying proprietry hardware like the Gameboy.

    So, you have no excuses now - buy one, start developing and make money! :)

  42. Market crashes, Innovation flourishes by ab5tract · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is little doubt that we are coming closer and closer to a "market correction" (and not just in the US, see the "What's Wrong with the Japanese Gaming Industry" series at tokyopia.com). The hows, whens, and whats of the issue, however, are really rather hard to predict. There are a few developments I predict for the future of the "gaming industry", which may or may not directly result from said market correction:

    1) Shorter games at cheaper prices - This has already been brought up several times, but I think this will be one of the major themes in the future. If gamers truly are searching for "cinematic experiences", then why do many modern games promising to deliver on this account run 40 hours, when the average movie runs around 2? Shorter games will be the perfect forum for testing the new ways of telling stories that have yet to be developed (and which will most likely be pioneered from smaller and/or open-source independent development houses).

    2) A resurgence of older games - Say a big industry powerhouse suddenly finds itself publishing games for a market that is no longer investing in the big-budget rehashes that said powerhouse has been investing, well, big-budgets in. It won't take too many $20 million dollar investments to flop before the company starts hemmorhaging. The answer? Tapping into the incredible backlogs of intellectual property that the company has at its fingertips, possibly stretching all the way back to the 8th bit generation. What better way to recoup on failed development investments than by re-releasing older products with little development investment required? This would mean that we finally see legal emulators released on new-generation consoles (what a major coup for Nintendo, if they were to suddenly to gain a huge chunk of Sony's marketshare simply by releasing an official SNES emulator and working with developers to ensure quality re-releases!)

    3) Gaming will find its Voice - Maybe not directly related to the Crash, one development that is certain will be a rising interest in looking at video games from an "academic" perspective. Institutions such as the IGDA and publications such as Game Studies are heralding a new age of vdeo gaming discussion, criticism, and theory. And as we well know there have been several calls-to-arms among the video game journalism crowd (which the quality members of will also help to fuel the desire among gamers to get their hands on some of the older games through their nostalgic advocacy of previous classics). It is only a matter of time before a common language for game theory is developed. After that, the sky won't even be a limit!

    4. Innovation based on older technologies - If you were thinking this category is just an excuse to throw out some links to Tenebrae screenshots, well, you were right (and stop reading my mind already!). Do yourself a favor and feast your eyes on some of these (Tenebrae) and these (Tenebrae2). These engines are based off the GPL'ed Quake 1 source, people! I mean, OMFG! T2 could be on par with Doom3 (in terms of capability, if not performance...yet), and it is _open-source_! Under the _GPL_! Which means it can only keep getting better! Alright, I better stop here or else I'll exceed my quota of exclamation points...

    5) Convergence of Media - Check out this excellent article from gamesindustry.biz that contains speculations about Sony's long-term plans. Better believe the PSP will be my "Walkman" once it's released!

    Okay, I think that is all I have to say for the moment. I am very excited fo

  43. Garage Not Dead by carcosa30 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I think garage developers are far from finished.

    There's a gigantic mass of untapped territory out there. All it takes is creativity. As John Carmack himself mentioned, big companies have trouble breaking away from molds. They produce "lock-in" conditions for themselves, being forced to run the same old games and formulae time and time again.

    Games, like anything else, exist on a fitness landscape. Games like the shooters are searching for pinnacles, ever higher, in one very narrow area.

    If id software broke away from their formula and tried something new, they'd then be duking it out with smaller developers, or houses with some money but without a huge popular name, like CDV/Fireglow (Divine Divinity, Sudden Strike)

    Much of the bottleneck for small developers is art. Textures and models. These are hard to do, even for talented and skilled specialist artists.

    I think a solution here is one that's fallen almost totally by the wayside in the last few years, and that's proceduralism. In other words, draw textures and models, as much as possible, procedurally-- as the insightful guy above said, parametric models are starting, and I think that's a way of coding that's going to revolutionize the way things are done.

    Also, buildings, dungeons, plants, city maps... all these things can be done as L-systems or as other types of grammars. It's not impossible, it just takes a little bit "more work" right up front, and the things get tons easier. Like so many other programming tasks. And then you have almost endless replay, until you see to the bottom of what the system can do.

    Id and Blizzard may not be around forever. They may be the SirTechs and the Broderbunds and the Beagle Brothers of today, to be supplanted tomorrow by hungrier smaller companies.

    --
    Intolerance for ambiguity is the mark of the authoritarian personality.
  44. So what? by Derkec · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They can't afford to produce for the console? Well, earn your stripes in the world of pc games. Once you can make money there, you can license the stuff for the consoles and move on.

    This really doesn't seem like the end of the world.

  45. Code Is Not Reused by Ro'que · · Score: 2, Informative

    Someone mentioned this above, but almost no "code" is reused in the sequels you listed above besides Doom 1-2 (almost the same game) and Quake 1-2. What is reused in the 'big' jumps is the experience of the developers and their understanding of 3D in a computer world.

    Take Starcraft, for instance (I know it's not an id game, but I know beyond doubt that what I say about Starcraft below is true). The very first build of Starcraft was made by adding onto and editing the Warcraft II engine Blizzard already had. After about three complete start-from-scratch redesigns, the game was released. What is used are the ideas and concepts, but the physical Warcraft II code was not carried over. Quake III was made in a similar fashion, with start-from-scratch code.

    I just finished reading Masters of Doom, and I'm fairly confident in saying that Carmack and his team could all walk away from id Software and make a new FPS called 'Mountain Dew Menace' or something with Doom 3 caliber graphics because they have the skills and the knowledge.

    Just thought of something, too. I'm fairly certain Quake 2 was a complete redesign due to a part of Masters of Doom where Romero gets the code from Carmack and has trouble porting Daikatana from Quake 1 to Quake 2 because Quake 2's codebase was so radically different than Quake 1's.

    So, in short, Doom 3's code has nothing to do with Doom 1's code. Only the concepts have evolved, not the actual if-thens.

  46. What about old school games? by TrekCycling · · Score: 2

    Many of us would like to see a return to gameplay over graphics. That's essentially the problem here. Games didn't cost as much to make when the focus was on gameplay and not on making the game as realistic as humanly possible. That's why some of us have flocked to the Gameboy Advance and dropped consoles altogether. Because we want to play fun games, not crappy games that look REALLY realistic. I know this will never happen, but how about a return to that type of gaming? Maybe a solution for some companies. There's definitely a market there. Now back to Advance Wars (which is infinitely more fun than any game I ever played on a modern console save GTA: Vice City).

  47. Consoles given away? by scdeimos · · Score: 2, Informative

    Will the games industry go down the route of the razor manufacturers where consoles are almost given away with the games?

    Hate to break it to you, but manufacturers have been selling consoles at a loss for a long time now. Their business models rely on profits in software sales to recoup their hardware development and manufacturing costs.

    Besides the initial financial risk to the console manufacturer, this model causes tremendous stress to the software development companies as the manufacturer negotiates harsher deals to allow themselves a greater profit margin. With the costs of development systems going up with each new platform release, not to mention contractual obligations, console software development is not an easy market to get into. This isn't likely to improve either.

    The only possibility of this situation improving is manufacturers driving-up the retail prices of consoles far enough to recover costs on inital sale - but then they price themselves out of the market. This isn't likely to happen.

    With games coming into new devices, such as mobile phones, at least there's opportunity for development companies to grow into areas other than the console market.