BSDCon '03 Nearly Here (OpenBSD 3.4, Too)

robotdreams writes "Once again BSDCon showcases the BSD community's long history of innovative research, open exchange of ideas, and collaborative work. Tutorials this year feature: an intensive code walkthrough of the new FreeBSD 5.x release, debugging kernel problems on live systems, advanced BSD system and network security, and FreeBSD's new GEOM disk I/O subsystem." Since BSDCon runs from September 8th through 12th, you're probably either already going or out of luck ;) On the other hand, you're still early for OpenBSD 3.4, now taking pre-orders -- details below.

An anonymous reader writes "Pre-orders for the OpenBSD project's latest release, 3.4, are now being taken. This release will ship around November 1st. Significant enhancements have been made in this release, including i386 switch to ELF executable format, further W^X improvements for i386, ld.so on ELF platforms now loads libraries in a random order for greater resistance to attacks, inclusion of a static bounds checker to the compiler for basic checks on functions which accept buffers and sizes, strcpy/strcat function audit to replace with safer strlcpy/strlcat, ProPolice stack protection in the kernel, further manual page cleanups, large number of bug fixes and optimizations to the packet filter (PF) including packet tagging, stateful TCP normalization, passive OS detection, SYN proxy, and adaptive state timeouts, and many other improvements to the rest of the system.

Order a CD from the OpenBSD store. Ordering a CD helps support the project, as a bonus you get cool stickers, artwork, and an audio track!"

The same reader sent links to more information on this release, including new features, and the changelog between 3.3 and 3.4.

Comments

The important question

[Anonymous Coward]

Will that hot FreeBSD devil babe be there?!

Re:The important question

[Anonymous Coward]

Will that hot FreeBSD devil babe be there?!

Ceren? I don't know (but I'm also curious). I don't think she was at the last BSDCon.

Oh, and it's DAEMON, not devil.

Re:The important question

[erikharrison]

Last I heard, she was retired.

Re:The important question

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's cut to the chase: *BSD is dying

Buzz Buzz Buzz

[CEHT]

I can't wait for new OpenBSD music!

Re:Buzz Buzz Buzz

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmm, it is usually the cover-art for me. The cover-art and the music make OpenBSD release CDs (which also come with entertaining stickers and comic artwork inside the CD case) the most collectable in OSS. It is interesting they don't even attempt to dressup their software in formidable-looking packaging; they aren't even trying to win-over business IT departments. The releases are targeted at fandom....

Re:Buzz Buzz Buzz

[Anonymous Coward]

Fandom? What are you talking about? Explain.

First of all: "they aren't even trying to win-over business IT departments."

Personally I wouldn't want to use an OS that is designed for that reason, why do you think Windows is the way it is today? An OS should be designed to be secure, bug free, well documented, and at the end of the day, just damn well do what it's supposed to do. Nothing else.

Do you think that the FreeBSD team tries to win over IT departments when they write code? You're kidding, right? Thought you were, had me going there for a second. OpenBSD won over my IT department for a firewall. Why? Not because they tried to for the sake of it, but because it just fucking works and is secure at the same time. (being free, minus CD cost, was a bonus)

Please give this some more thought.

Re:Buzz Buzz Buzz

[Anonymous Coward]

Relax! I only meant the CDs are packaged to appeal to OpenBSD OS enthusiasts, and not to impress managers with 'secure-looking' packaging. I was alluding to the fact that the best way into IT departments seems to be by marketing to managers rather than making a great product that impresses people who would actually know the difference.

You've clearly read far more into my post than I intended....

Re:Buzz Buzz Buzz

[Anonymous Coward]

This is getting worse. Packaging?? What the hell is "secure-looking" packaging? A colored Window? A fat penguin? A shady character with a red hat?

The best way into an IT department is with a product that works, as I explained before. Not every manager is as dumb as you think. Managers like that should be ignored, they deserve what they get by choosing products on what the CD cover looks like. If the managers are choosing the products, it sounds like the IT department is very broken. Why does a manager have techs working for him/her? To make the technical decisions, to do the technical work. The manager should not care what the product looks like. What matters is cost, whether or not it does the job, and at the end of the day, make his/her team look good.

The OpenBSD covers are just a bit of fun. I'd rather that to every other drab, boring CD cover used on other OSes. If I was you I'd pull out of this while you're ahead. I can't imagine what you will say next.

Technical sessions start Sept 10

[cperciva]

The technical sessions start on September 10th, so there's still lots of time to register and book plane tickets.

Speaking of the 10th... I'd better start working on my slides.

Re:Technical sessions start Sept 10

[Anonymous Coward]

What We Can Learn From BSD
By Chinese Karma Whore, Version 1.0

Everyone knows about BSD's failure and imminent demise. As we pore over the history of BSD, we'll uncover a story of fatal mistakes, poor priorities, and personal rivalry, and we'll learn what mistakes to avoid so as to save Linux from a similarly grisly fate.

Let's not be overly morbid and give BSD credit for its early successes. In the 1970s, Ken Thompson and Bill Joy both made significant contributions to the computing world on the BSD platform. In the 80s, DARPA saw BSD as the premiere open platform, and, after initial successes with the 4.1BSD product, gave the BSD company a 2 year contract.

These early triumphs would soon be forgotten in a series of internal conflicts that would mar BSD's progress. In 1992, AT&T filed suit against Berkeley Software, claiming that proprietary code agreements had been haphazardly violated. In the same year, BSD filed countersuit, reciprocating bad intentions and fueling internal rivalry. While AT&T and Berkeley Software lawyers battled in court, lead developers of various BSD distributions quarreled on Usenet. In 1995, Theo de Raadt, one of the founders of the NetBSD project, formed his own rival distribution, OpenBSD, as the result of a quarrel that he documents [theos.com] on his website. Mr. de Raadt's stubborn arrogance was later seen in his clash with Darren Reed, which resulted in the expulsion of IPF from the OpenBSD distribution.

As personal rivalries took precedence over a quality product, BSD's codebase became worse and worse. As we all know, incompatibilities between each BSD distribution make code sharing an arduous task. Research conducted at MIT found BSD's filesystem implementation to be "very poorly performing." Even BSD's acclaimed TCP/IP stack has lagged behind, according to this study.

Problems with BSD's codebase were compounded by fundamental flaws in the BSD design approach. As argued by Eric Raymond in his watershed essay, The Cathedral and the Bazaar, rapid, decentralized development models are inherently superior to slow, centralized ones in software development. BSD developers never heeded Mr. Raymond's lesson and insisted that centralized models lead to 'cleaner code.' Don't believe their hype - BSD's development model has significantly impaired its progress. Any achievements that BSD managed to make were nullified by the BSD license, which allows corporations and coders alike to reap profits without reciprocating the goodwill of open-source. Fortunately, Linux is not prone to this exploitation, as it is licensed under the GPL.

The failure of BSD culminated in the resignation of Jordan Hubbard and Michael Smith from the FreeBSD core team. They both believed that FreeBSD had long lost its earlier vitality. Like an empire in decline, BSD had become bureaucratic and stagnant. As Linux gains market share and as BSD sinks deeper into the mire of decay, their parting addresses will resound as fitting eulogies to BSD's demise.

I know, but...

[Mr. Darl McBride]

As far as I know Windows have had native support for Java for ages. Actually since Microsoft and Sun signed an agreement about this back in 1997 that deals with this issue. So the fact that FreeBSD got this is fine but not exactly revolutionary.

Re:I know, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Absolutely fascinating. I wouldn't have known that if I hadn't read your obscure Slashdot posting. I don't know if you know this or not, but Microsoft has been trying to get rid of Sun ever since then. Another thing that I'm not sure if you know is that FreeBSD had native support for the Java 1.1 series since at least 3.x, so FreeBSD support for Java is fine but not exactly revolutionary.

Re:I know, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing revolutionary around here is this posts lack of pointing out anything anybody didn't already know.

Re:I know, but...

[MobyTurbo]

As far as I know Windows have had native support for Java for ages. Actually since Microsoft and Sun signed an agreement about this back in 1997 that deals with this issue. So the fact that FreeBSD got this is fine but not exactly revolutionary.

FreeBSD has had native Java for several years as well, it is only recently however that Sun, which according to the license must approve of all binary distribution, approved of distributing *binaries* of Java for FreeBSD; so you no longer have to first install the Linux Java VM, Java source, and patches, all the while clicking on Sun-mandated license warnings, to bootstrap Java on FreeBSD. Don't blame FreeBSD for being late to have binary Java 2, blame Sun for not open sourcing Java.

Re:I know, but...

[AchmedHabib]

Hey, I guess Sun has been busy writing drivers for x86 Solaris. :D .. ahrm

FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

I keep hearing that FreeBSD has a kickass filesystem. Is it more reliable than ext[2|3]? Because frankly, I think Linux filesystem is not all that great. I noticed that when I download a lot of files at the same time, like say with ncftp, netscape and wget all saving data to the same disk at the same time, I invariably end up with serious filesystem issues at the next fsck (and yeah, I use ext3, but you still have to fsck it to fix duplicate/corrupt inodes).
So anyway, how does FreeBSD's filesystem stack up against Linux?

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Mr. Darl McBride]

So anyway, how does FreeBSD's filesystem stack up against Linux?

FreeBSD chose to address this problem by making fsck capable of running in the background. fsck cooperates with the kernel, checking all files/inodes, and when a file is requested that has not yet been checked, the file operation is held while that check is moved to the front of the unique "moustache ride-ordered" queue.

Journaling without sacrificing performance and clean algorithms simply isn't possible, and corruption is still possible on a journaling filesystem with out-of-order writes as done by many kinds of cache-enabled drives and controllers, leading to a false sense of security when fsck is bypassed. FreeBSD's approach catches every situation, and guarantees an intact filesystem on every boot.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

FreeBSD's approach catches every situation, and guarantees an intact filesystem on every boot.

Sounds good.

You think it could be incorporated in GPL code?

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[biggerboy]

Sure. It's BSD -- you can do whatever you want. The BSD license gives you more freedom than GPL.

(ducking)

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

Good, 'cause then the good code will be protected forever from getting locked up by corps like SCO.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Mr. Darl McBride]

This could be incorporated in Linux, if that's what you mean. It would be a pretty major undertaking, however. This operates with hooks at the filesystem layer and the block device layer both, which means that for every filesystem implementing this, a path needs to be made through it. This would touch not only the INode queue system (which would be good, as the Moustache ride-ordered queue mentioned above is more efficient), but also the Async Network And Loopback probe since this would have to permeate 2.4's proc-based /dev filesystem, and the penal sheath bits of the thread dispatcher in order to allow a filesystem to halt the process requesting fsck-limited activity.

This could well be a good phd project for someone who wants to work on a thesis project that gives back to the community, and would surely secure them a job at Oracle or one of the other Big Data Storage Management companies.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

I just lost my Moustache in a shaving accident you insensitive clod

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Mr. Darl McBride]

I half suspect I'm responding to a troll. This isn't a feature you can simply lift and compile in. This touches many parts of the kernel which don't yet exist on Linux. More details here.

Hopefully Linux will see this added in 2.8 or similar. Or they may take OpenBSD's tact ofadding commit markers to the journal queues to force syncs before blocks that update metadata. (This is good for reliability, but a little bad for performance, and very bad for potentially losing much more data if power is yanked or machine crashes)

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[FrostedWheat]

FreeBSD's approach catches every situation, and guarantees an intact filesystem on every boot.

I dunno, have you see the previous article? I'd like to see FreeBSD catch this!

Now that would be impressive!

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[caluml]

I noticed that when I download a lot of files at the same time, like say with ncftp, netscape and wget all saving data to the same disk at the same time, I invariably end up with serious filesystem issues at the next fsck

Load of arse. ext2 is both fast and reliable. If you're having lots of disk problems, you should look at your hardware.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[realdpk]

If ext2 is so reliable, why does it, by default, insist that I must fsck after X days or Y mounts?

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

It isn't. The guy you replied to is full of shit. If he had read 'man tune2fs' (the -c option, specifically), he would know that Linux filesystem isn't foolproof. Instead he choose to be a prick and blame hardware issues instead. Damn fool!
Oh yeah, and e2fsck is shit. Check this out:

# df | grep home /dev/hda7 37658144 27933100 7812112 79% /home
# umount /home/
# df | grep home
# /sbin/e2fsck -fy /dev/hda7
e2fsck 1.27 (8-Mar-2002)
Pass 1: Checking inodes, blocks, and sizes
Pass 2: Checking directory structure
Pass 3: Checking directory connectivity
Pass 4: Checking reference counts
WARNING: PROGRAMMING BUG IN E2FSCK!
OR SOME BONEHEAD (YOU) IS CHECKING A MOUNTED (LIVE) FILESYSTEM.
inode_link_info[1261677] is 1, inode.i_links_count is 2. They should be the same!
Inode 1261677 ref count is 2, should be 2. Fix? yes

See?!! e2fsck is so easily confused, it can't even find it's own arse (the fact that a partition isn't mounted) with both hands!

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

Wouldn't porting a "unix" filesystem like ufs+s be considered a lawfully unwise move, since you own unix and all that?

Just asking since you have already stated that FreeBSD and the BSD bretheren are not excluded from your licensing gestapo (as told in one of the countless interviews you seem to give prior to your stock going up).

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Frohboy]

Sigh... why do people mod things up as "interesting" or "insightful" when they don't understand what they mean? The parent should potentially be modified up as +1 funny.

Note the following terms used (and think of associated acronyms):

• Async Network And Loopback probe
• Big Data Storage Management companies

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Mr. Darl McBride]

If you're suggesting that as CEO of THE multinational UNIX source licensing company, I don't know about kernels...

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

You missed the moustache ride and penal sheath?

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to the subject of operating system, most of us can agree on at least one thing, and that is the simple plain truth that *BSD is dying. But the deeper question is why? Why did *BSD fail?

Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personalities?

The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. The hope is long gone; a mournful nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

Reliable my ass: by default it won't remount-ro not panic, it will simply fuck up. "Use the source code", zit-face.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

And why in the world would you need to add communism and bigotry to a filesystem?

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

That's good to know. Since it is a safe bet that SCO invented it first (I noticed that you were too modest and forthright to mention it), I'll be sending you a check for $699 roght away.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[evilviper]

ext2 is both fast and reliable.

Bull! I've had many-a-time that my Linux system lost power, and an ext2 partition was corrupted. Usually my /home partition.

I can give you a 100% guarantee that is was not my hardware for two reasons. First of all, I had the exact same experience with a handful of different hard drives. Secondly, I'm still using all of those hard drives, and they haven't lost a single byte of my data, even with numerous power-outages, heavy-duty writing, and uprades from version to version, and even various distros.

On the other hand, ext3 has (thus far) proven itself to be quite reliable. An occasional FSCK doesn't bother me, as long as the data remains intact.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[axxackall]

Sure. It's BSD -- you can do whatever you want. The BSD license gives you more freedom than GPL.

Sure. That's the difference between GPL and BSDL. With GPL no need to worry - IBM or SGI will contribute something like that to Linux sooner or later (most likely sooner). With BSD don't waste your time: you gotta code it yourself.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

Why must you be a De Rat fanboi? Are you his boyfriend or something?

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[axxackall]

Journaling without sacrificing performance and clean algorithms simply isn't possible

Say it to IBM and SGI. They would like to hear your arguments just to discover that years of research and practice were useless.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD you grow in the ghetto, living second rate

And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate.

The places you play and where you stay

Looks like one great big alley way.

You'll admire all the numberbook takers,

Thugs, BSD pimps and pushers, and the big money makers.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Mr. Darl McBride]

Come back with benchmarks.

That the FreeBSD filesystem blows the above away is one of its greater strengths. Sun is the only UNIX with a faster filesystem, but at nothing like the price point of course.

There's a reason why FreeBSD and Solaris are the only platforms where Oracle doesn't require a dedicated partition to create its own database filesystem. FreeBSD and Solaris can hack it. JFS, XFS, Reiser and friends are a fairly distant second.

Please do your research before posting. This kind of performance isn't about the desktop. Leave the replies to people with real server experience.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

IBM and SGI are researching journaling file systems for use by those needing file system journaling. This means banks, stock exchanges, and the like. People who could care less about performance and "clean" algorithms, but are intensely concerned about atomic transactions at the filesystem level.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Brandybuck]

If ext2fs is both fast and reliable, then why the heck is every Linux distro dumping it for ext3, xfs or reiserfs?

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[NuShrike]

I've set up Oracle 8.1 on both Sun and Redhat Linux systems... On Solaris, it's better to have a dedicated partition with Solaris Disk Suite, or use Veritas VxFS.

You have no choice on RH Linux so you stick it on a ext3 filesystem in the default install.

Never got Oracle running in FreeBSD. How did you do it?

And softupdates 0wns j00!

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD really, really is dead. Not a troll. I wouldn't invest a dime in it. Ask yourself if you'd want to put your own money into BSD. There's an ultra-high risk investment with no promise of any returns, let alone big ones. Like I said, BSD really, really is dead.

Re:FreeBSD filesystem

[Anonymous Coward]

helicopter crash
dead flesh stinking charred flesh
freebsd death

Soothing break

[Mr. Darl McBride]

We'd like to interrupt this BSD story for a bit of pro-BSD propaganda.

Tell me you don't want BSD on your laptop now.

Further persuasion available here. This is definitely +1 Interesting material to any heterosexual male. Mod me down if you are the sendmail author or otherwise uninterested.

Re:Soothing break

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhmm get a life. She's somewhat attractive but not nearly as hot as everyone seems to think.

OMG ITS A WOMAN IN LATEX AND ITS LIKE BSD MASCOT SO LIKE YEAH GIRL MAKES ME HORNY!

Get a life loosers. There are women 20x hotter then that outside your door.

Try going outside and talking to them sometime instead of wanking off to pictures of women in latex on the internet.

Re:Soothing break

[pirodude]

THIS is a much better reason. I'm just wondering, does she come in the box or as an upgrade?

Re:Soothing break

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy Welcome to Last Decade, Batman.

Re:Soothing break

[pimpinmonk]

Holy hot tamales! How 'bout a few pickup lines?

Hey baby, you can do my security audit anytime!

Hey, wanna go out for a FreeBSD install and a fsck?

Hey baby, bet you can't install a rootkit in my homedirectory!

Ouch, ouch, I know... well back to hungover slumber then :-)

Re:Soothing break

[Mr. Darl McBride]

Do you know how hard it is to find an attractive mormon woman in latex?

Re:Soothing break

[Anonymous Coward]

Further proof that BSD users are pedophiles.

Re:Soothing break

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me you don't want BSD on your laptop now.

+5, serious; I want BSD on top of my lap. Is that the same thing?

Re:Soothing break

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to the subject of operating systems, most of us can agree on at least one thing, and that is the simple plain truth that *BSD is dying. But the deeper question is why? Why did *BSD fail?

Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personalities?

The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. That hope is long gone, replaced by an inconsolable despair. A mournful, plaintive nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

Re:Soothing break

[Anonymous Coward]

It's PVC (well, technically PUV, polyurethane vinyl-coated polyester), not latex. Don't ask how I know; you don't want to know.

one issue that should be hot on the table

[Anonymous Coward]

is ximian compatability.

Any linux related (binary compat in this case) that wants to move or shake should investigate ximian compatability....

I for one welcome out new ximian overlords.

Imagine a schimick GUI interface, FreeBSD underneath, all you'd need is a cheese grater aluminum case......

Soon?

[JamesTRexx]

Will soon be widly placed on desktops... I think that's a bit much very premature. So far it's still Windoze, and the hype is Linux, so I think *BSD won't grow that much on the desktop market. Although I would like to see much more articles on using *BSD for the regular consumers. In the meantime *BSD will keep the important parts of the internet running. Oh, and no *BSD is dying comments please. It's getting really old and tired to hear that from close minded people...

Re:Soon?

[nyteroot]

I would like to see much more articles on using *BSD for the regular consumers

Why, god. Why is it that an OS must be usable "on the desktop", "by mom", or by "the regular consumers" in order for it to be considered "good"? First we had Linux, and then they mom-ified Linux. Now you want them to mom-ify *BSD too? Fuck that shit!

There are server OSs. There are desktop OSs. Any attempt at combination is bound to fail miserably at one or the other and quite likely both.

Re:Soon?

[JamesTRexx]

I didn't say it isn't good, in fact, I use it for my servers and I hope to get my new workstation soon so I can install the latest FreeBSD on it.
The trouble is, (most) managers only see what's in the pc magazines so they don't know about the power of *BSD or other OS'.
I'm all in favor of seperate OS versions for server and for desktop uses. I still curse everytime I see totally useless junk installed on a Windoze server like Imaging, Pinball, etc...
Hell, if we had our way at work there would have been only a few Windoze boxes left!
What I want is for more people to realise there's more out there than Windoze and GNU/Linux, or Apple. Let them know so they might try something else for a change and in the process improve on internet and intranet.
We know the good stuff, now tell the masses.

Re:Soon?

[Malcontent]

I thought MacOSX was the desktop freebsd.

Re:Soon?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can afford the mortgage for the hardware. I am talking about good hardware like a workstation, not a cheesy Imac.

Re:Soon?

[MrHanky]

Why, god. Why is it that an OS must be usable "on the desktop", "by mom", or by "the regular consumers" in order for it to be considered "good"? First we had Linux, and then they mom-ified Linux. Now you want them to mom-ify *BSD too? Fuck that shit!

I don't know. FreeBSD is a fine desktop/workstation OS. I use it on my laptop. However, it's not quite mummified yet (sorry, but we all have to have a reference to '*BSD is dead', don't we?). I recently installed it on my desktop as well, and wantet GDM as a log in manager. That was painful. After I finally got GDM to start at all, and managed to log in, I noticed I was root. This came as a surprise to me, since I had tried to log in as a user. I didn't bother too much with it, and installed KDM instead. It worked.

FreeBSD might or might not work for the regular consumer, as a desktop OS. It doesn't rot away from normal use, like Windows does. But the ports and packages aren't necessarily working correctly, might need tweaking and so on. A FreeBSD install that has been set up by a knowledgeable nerd for its intended use should work fine, even for a mummy.

Re:Soon?

[JamesTRexx]

Yeah, except, or maybe it's just me, it doesn't run well on AMD, VIA, and other x86 compatibles like Intel. ;-)

Re:Soon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact: *BSD is dying

We all know that *BSD is dying; it almost goes without saying. Yes, ever hapless *BSD continues to be mired in an irrecoverable and mortifying tangle of fatal trouble. It is perhaps anybody's guess as to which *BSD is the worst off of an admittedly suffering *BSD community. The numbers continue to decline for *BSD but FreeBSD may be hurting the most. Look at the numbers. The erosion of user base for FreeBSD continues in a head spinning downward spiral.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of BSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major marketing surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among hobbyist dilettante dabblers. If truth, for all practical purposes *BSD is already dead. It is a dead man walking.

Fact: *BSD is dying

Re:Soon?

[evilviper]

Personally... I won't use it. It isn't just the desktop BSD (FreeBSD/Mach/etc), it's also the closed-source BSD. There are many good reasons people use Open Source software, and they apply to the desktop as well as the base OS, and additional applications.

I would recomend it over Windows to people that aren't very technical, but that's about it.

Don't mind me, just ranting here.

Re:Soon?

[evilviper]

There are server OSs. There are desktop OSs. Any attempt at combination is bound to fail miserably at one or the other and quite likely both.

OpenBSD has been working fine as my desktop for years. I'm using Mozilla on OpenBSD on my Laptop to type this message right now.

It's really quite easy to install, and you only need the tiniest bit of knowledge to setup X and install applications. I wouldn't say it's for "the regular consumers", but only because those people are horrified if they have to type-in a single word, rather than being able to click the mouse to do everything.

With a simple shell-script, I could have an OpenBSD CD automatically install itself, configure X, and install and configure basic applications. That's pretty-much what Windows does, but Unixers expect more control and flexibility than that, so nobody bothers to do it.

Re:Soon?

[thedexter]

After my hard drive's partition table was erased the other day, I installed FreeBSD 5.1. It was a painless install (less the pain that I'd felt to no cause of it) and I'm running it on my desktop right now. I recompiled the kernel to get sound working -- via adding one line, "device pcm", to /sys/src/i386/CUSTOM and recompiling and installing -- and it detected my school's network automatically. I'm doing fine on it.

Re:Soon?

[JamesTRexx]

I think that's the beauty of the BSD's. I haven't yet tried Open or Net, but I can either let FreeBSD handle things automatically for the most part, or download and compile whatever I need.
It's that kind of choice that would have given Windoze a big extra. At one point those OS will come together, when the BSD's can be as simple to install or use as Windoze, and Windoze can be customized as good as the BSD's. Then we can really make a choice on OS.

Re:Soon?

[anthonyrcalgary]

Darwin (and therefore MacOS X) is based on the Mach kernel. It probably has FreeBSD code, and they make efforts to make it FreeBSD compatable in some respects, but it's only loosely related.

Re:Soon?

[JamesTRexx]

Hmmm... I don't see how *BSD could be less technical than Linux, presuming that's what you're using.
*BSD is just as open too, except the license is different, maybe less intruding. It gives everyone a chance to make some money from the software they write/enhance upon.
I recommend BSD to people so they don't have to go through all the different distributions of GNU/Linux to find the one that might suit them best. With the three big flavors of BSD you make more of a choice between security, portability, and overall usefulness. And, from what I've heard from several sides, the BSD's and their application ports seem to be more structured than the Linux counterparts. But then *BSD and Linux have different approaches to their development and availability of applications.

Re:Soon?

[evilviper]

You misunderstood my post, and are preaching to the converted here. I'm a BSDer, and verymuch recomend it over Linux (you replied to another of my comments here as well, I guess you don't notice usernames too much). What I'm saying, is that I wouldn't recomend Mac OS X to anyone that knows enough to use an open source OS.

Re:Soon?

[JamesTRexx]

Whoops! Yes, I do notice usernames, but I guess I was too tired to notice you were talking about Mac OS here, heh.
Doing way too much overtime does that to me...

Re:Soon?

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD has made it to the desktop. In the form of Mac OS X.

Sorry Linux desktops, you have lost the race, and are starting to fall behind.

Cloning Windows is not the right approach. You're all smart people, come up with something BETTER than the Windows GUI and mindset.

Re:Soon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck you, nigger. Ooops, I meant to say faggot. My bad.

Re:Soon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wake up, Jim. Put down the crack pipe, and consider this:

*BSD is dying

M'kay?

Re:Soon?

[Anonymous Coward]

Jim, I'm afraid I have bad news for you. *BSD is dying.

However I've also got some good news. I saved a ton of money on car insurance by switching to GEICO.

Re:Soon?

[Shanep]

Darwin (and therefore MacOS X) is based on the Mach kernel.

Yes.

It probably has FreeBSD code, and they make efforts to make it FreeBSD compatable in some respects, but it's only loosely related.

http://www.apple.com/macosx/technologies/darwin.ht ml

The stability of Mac OS X begins with Darwin, an Open Source, UNIX-based foundation. Darwin is a complete BSD UNIX implementation, derived from the original 4.4BSD-Lite2 Open Source distribution. Darwin uses a monolithic kernel based on FreeBSD 4.4 and the OSF/mk Mach 3, combining BSD's POSIX support with the fine-grained multithreading and real-time performance of Mach.

It doesn't seem to be very loosely related. In the past it seemed from Apple's site that the FreeBSD component of OSX was mostly in user space with a little in the kernel. But this page seems to suggest FreeBSD plays a much bigger role.

removing some utilities

[deputydink]

Replacement of GNU diff(1), diff3(1), grep(1), egrep(1), fgrep(1), zgrep(1), zegrep(1), zfgrep(1), gzip(1), zcat(1), gunzip(1), gzcat(1), zcmp(1), zmore(1), zdiff(1), zforce(1), gzexe(1), and znew(1) commands with BSD licensed equivalents.

Anyone know why OpenBSD is removing GNU tools ... other than the licensing issues ?

Re:removing some utilities

[Tirel]

Theo has said many times before that they will only use GNU tools if there's nothing to replace them with. Infact, the good folks at @openbsd have been looking into replacing gcc with tunDRA (with little success atm) simply because of the GNU licence.

Basically, GNU licenced programs are only there if really necessary.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

So Theo's being an asshole yet again.

If he thinks separating from the protection granted by GPL will further the survivability of OpenBSD, he's seriously mistaken.

I've never quite understood how the BSD people can think they've got freedom when their work may be locked down and stolen by a corporation any time.

It's amazing how RMS could foresee this decades ago.

Re:removing some utilities

[iamdrscience]

Are you serious? Their work can't be "locked down" -- no matter what any corporation does with their code they'll still have all the stuff they wrote available to them and that's what's really important.

Re:removing some utilities

[nyteroot]

. . .their work may be locked down and stolen by a corporation [at] any time.

Ah! Such enlightening insight into the world of open source licensing!
..yeah, right.

My dear sir, you are utterly incorrect. Were some corporation to "lock down" their source code (and I can only assume that by "lock down" you mean to re-release under a proprietary license) they would only be assuring that their version of the software would be utterly disregarded by the entire computer community, because (pay attention here) the free version would not somehow magically cease to exist! So on the one hand you would have the free, latest version. On the other hand, you would have the not-free, catching-up version. Gee, tough choice.

Now what the BSD license does allow is for some company to take some or all of the source and reuse it elsewhere, under a proprietary license if they so wish, without giving anything back to the Free software community. Whether or not this is necessarily a bad thing is a philosophical matter. However, your assertion that a company could "lock down" the OpenBSD code is completely and utterly incorrect.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Many companies use OpenBSD with their server products. Theo doesn't care and he ends up making enough money. This freedom of how a person may use code is great. Look at the BSD licensed Tk for example. Tk is used in Tcl, Perl, Python, Erlang, KSH, Ada, Scheme, and so on. People have adapted it for many things, and often use it commercially. I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but some companies have strict rules that forbid the usage of GPL or LGPL licensed software.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

making enough money.

Wrong. There's never enough money.

Re:removing some utilities

[Daniel Phillips]

Anyone know why OpenBSD is removing GNU tools ... other than the licensing issues ?

While I'm greatful I have these tools for free, and they have served me well, they are not without brain damage. For example, I found to my horror that 'patch' will, under certain circumstances, seek out and change my original files used to generate a patch, instead of what a reasonable reader would think to be the target files (the ones marked with "+++"). This is in fact documented behaviour, presumably thought to be good by some well-meaning but confused soul.

Here, the argument of continuity apparently outweighs that of sanity. Solution: fork. Maybe with a little competition, the gnu utilities will eventually get updated to get rid of that nasty, destructive behaviour.

Re:removing some utilities

[eht]

If anyone really does have a problem with a lockdown of BSD code, they could always take everything and re-release it under the GPL, they're quite welcome to do so as long as the BSD copyright notices remain intact in the source code.

gplBSD here we come.

Re:removing some utilities

[tedu]

licensing, less gpl is always better if possible. we also now maintain the tools entirely ourselves. cleanliness -- they don't even know how to indent properly. :) in the case of grep, it was a major improvement in size of the binary (think floppy installs) because we use libc regexp, not 3 different special edition text searchers made just for grep.

Re:removing some utilities

[howardjp]

Actually, I was the original author of FreeGrep, and even if you pull out the text searchers in GNU Grep, FreeGrep is still only 1/3 the size (source lines).

FreeGrep is also FAR more extensible and, in general, better designed. It would not be difficult to add support for grepping bzipped files, other compressed types, or even new types of files. It's also easier to add new options and features, though I do think the entire alphabet has been exhausted.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact: *BSD is dying

It is common knowledge that *BSD is dying, that ever hapless *BSD is mired in an irrecoverable and mortifying tangle of fatal trouble. It is perhaps anybody's guess as to which *BSD is the worst off of an admittedly suffering *BSD community. The numbers continue to decline for *BSD but FreeBSD may be hurting the most. Look at the numbers. The loss of user base for FreeBSD continues in a head spinning downward spiral.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of BSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

Every major marketing survey shows that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among hobbyist dilettante dabblers. If truth, for all practical purposes *BSD is already dead. It is a dead man walking.

Fact: *BSD is dying

Re:removing some utilities

[kruntiform]

Now what the BSD license does allow is for some company to take some or all of the source and reuse it elsewhere, under a proprietary license if they so wish, without giving anything back to the Free software community.

They do give back to the community in many cases anyway. I fixed a bug in some code with a BSD-like license that we use in our proprietary product. It made sense for us to send a patch in to the maintainers because naturally it would have been impractical for us to maintain the software ourselves. So we won and the maintainers won -- it made our product better, and the maintainers got the services of a paid programmer to fix one of their bugs. I imagine this is a fairly common case.

Re:removing some utilities

[sketerpot]

That would probably be worthwhile just for the laughs. You could even submit the story to slashdot!

Re:removing some utilities

[cpeterso]

absolutely! The BSD license implicitly encourages companies to share patches "upstream" because it will make future forking easier. The companies that used "forked" BSD software do not want to maintain tons of separate bug fixes in a different codebase. They just want to copy other people's work. That sounds "evil", but it does provide a strong incentive to share a common codebase.

Re:removing some utilities

[evilviper]

the good folks at @openbsd have been looking into replacing gcc with tunDRA (with little success atm) simply because of the GNU licence.

First of all, there has been a _small_ bit of interest in Tendra by just a few in the BSD community, but I don't think it's fair to say that they have been looking into replacing GCC.

Secondly, licensing isn't the only concern. An upgrade from GCC 2.9 to 3 is on the horizon, and at least one of the primary OpenBSD developers has said that they aren't happy with GCC 3. I don't think it's worth getting into detail, but it isn't licensing issues alone.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to the subject of operating systems, most of us can agree on at least one thing, and that is the simple plain truth that *BSD is dying. But the deeper question is why? Why did *BSD fail?

Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personas?

The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. That hope is long gone, replaced by an inconsolable, ashen despair. A mournful, plaintive nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD you grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate.
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way.
You'll admire all the numberbook takers,
Thugs, BSD pimps and pushers, and the big money makers.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, that makes perfect sense as long as you ignore the 10000 forked versions of BSD Unix.

Re:removing some utilities

[tedu]

why doesn't redhat ship the same kernel i find on kernel.org?

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice use of bolding for emphasis! Very well done. :-)

Re:removing some utilities

[infinite1]

My company uses FreeBSD and we push any bug fixes etc upstream. It makes sense to contribute back if the changes you make, make the base better. You don't need to maintain it against a changing base.
I think the BSD license makes sense. Everybody contributes together to make a common platform and you build your own value added services on top. Its in your own best interests to give back to the community to make sure you have a strong and vibrant platform for your business.

Re:removing some utilities

[Brandybuck]

Licensing issues mostly. But licensing issues of a pragmatic, not religious, nature. Unlike Linux, the userlands of the BSDs are an integral part of a single source tree. It's much easier to release the entire OS under a single license. It's to the benefit of the developers and the users. But when some code is not "BSD license compatible", it becomes a pain in the butt.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Because Linus won't accept certain features for whatever reason. 99% of the RedHat diffs will eventually be merged back to kernel.org, or replaced.

Now how much of the SunOS or Ultrix kernel was ever folded back to FreeBSD? That's right, 0%.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

The (IMHO) main reason why *BSD didn't catch as much as Linux did is caused by inflexibility. The ``we are against the GPL'' licencing issue is just one of the symptoms of this.

However, it is nice to see that OpenBSD is finally implementing ASLR (Address Space Layout Randomisation), which has been available for Linux for quite some time now (in the form of PaX).

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Death is not pretty.

It hurts 'n' stuff.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

locked down and stolen?

a) can't be stolen because it is free. you don't seem to understand that THE DEVELOPER CHOSE TO PUBLISH HIS CODE THIS WAY. he did you a FAVOR.
b) once a corporation "locks down" a portion in a product, it is THEIR responsibility to manage
c) you obviously have no concept of research that is not product driven. the freebsd philosophy is born of academia. science simply for the sake of science is A Good Thing and we ALL benefit. GPL fans are very focused on the nuts and bolts of the code and making sure that ownership is asserted for every individual line. code is fairly insignificant compared to the ideas that prompted its creation.
d) people who see Linux and FreeBSD in competition should be modded -5 simply because the whole thing is driven by the insecure geeks who need to assert their chosen OS as some sort of exclusive club and are generally talking out of their asses.

Re:removing some utilities

[Geekboy(Wizard)]

First of all, there has been a _small_ bit of interest in Tendra by just a few in the BSD community, but I don't think it's fair to say that they have been looking into replacing GCC.

Yes. It is fair to say that. Since they have been investigating it. The biggest issue for OpenBSD to replace GCC, is the other arch support.

Secondly, licensing isn't the only concern. An upgrade from GCC 2.9 to 3 is on the horizon, and at least one of the primary OpenBSD developers has said that they aren't happy with GCC 3. I don't think it's worth getting into detail, but it isn't licensing issues alone.

If by "at least one", you mean "the vast majority" dislike GCC, you would be correct. GCC3 is needed for some archs, since they are newer than GCC 2.95.3. GCC is a bloated pig, and needs to be replaced. I don't have the skills to replace it, so I don't bitch about it.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you just did.. :)

Re:removing some utilities

[evilviper]

Yes. It is fair to say that. Since they have been investigating it. The biggest issue for OpenBSD to replace GCC, is the other arch support.

I said what I said because, AFAIK, they are not officially doing so. It seems to be just a few individual developers interested in the prospect.

If by "at least one", you mean "the vast majority" dislike GCC, you would be correct.

I was refering, specifially, to the upgrade to GCC3. I've only heard one outspoken core developer voice objections about the transition.

GCC3 is needed for some archs, since they are newer than GCC 2.95.3. GCC is a bloated pig, and needs to be replaced.

I agree. However, I much prefer not to overstate things myself. It's pure troll-bait here on /.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Is SunOS or Ultrix still around? No. Guess that it doesn't matter then. That is the problem with forking off BSD licensed code and not contributing back. You risk falling behind, becoming incompatible, and getting left by the side of the road.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact: *BSD is dying

It is common knowledge that *BSD is dying, that ever hapless *BSD is mired in an irrecoverable and mortifying tangle of fatal trouble. It is perhaps anybody's guess as to which *BSD is the worst off of an admittedly suffering *BSD community. The numbers continue to decline for *BSD but FreeBSD may be hurting the most. Look at the numbers. The erosion of user base for FreeBSD continues in a head spinning downward spiral.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of BSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major marketing surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among hobbyist dilettante dabblers. In truth, for all practical purposes *BSD is already dead. It is a dead man walking.

Fact: *BSD is dying

Re:removing some utilities

[Groganz]

Bullshit.

Go read a BSD license and tell me where it says you are allowed to change the license.

Re:removing some utilities

[Anonymous Coward]

How much of FreeBSD is in SunOS/Ultrix?

That's right, 0%.

Both go back to BSD4.x, but both SunOS and Ultrix are significantly older than FreeBSD.

As it happens, Sun at least did send some code back to the CSRG. Ultrix, I can't comment on, but Ultrix is heavily SysV influenced.

OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[MADbull]

when will the next song be out? http://openbsd.rug.ac.be/ftp/pub/OpenBSD/songs/ i don't see it there yet...

Re:OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[Anonymous Coward]

You need a life. Seriously.

Re:OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[Daniel_Staal]

Theo says it will be out in 'about three weeks.'

Re:OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[ThreeFarthingStone]

I didn't know about any songs. There seems to be a "songs" directory on each OpenBSD mirror, I've never noticed it before. Perhaps because I'm always inside "3.3".

Maybe I can download them later.

Re:OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[Anonymous Coward]

While you're waiting, check this death metal RMS remix:
http://www.jonobacon.org/music/solo/jonoba con-free softwaresong.ogg

Re:OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shit, slashdot broke my url, here's with tags:
rms remix

Re:OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[Mr. Darl McBride]

Mod parent as troll!

The "about three weeks" he sarcastically quotes is how long Theo had said his wife would be in the hospital from surgical complications just before she passed away early this spring. "About three weeks" is a troll used at every opportunity on the OpenBSD mailing lists, and it's twice caused Theo to have to take time away from the lists.

This is neither informative nor funny. Come on, people -- whether you like Theo or not, Angie had nothing to do with the BSD project, and this is just cruel.

Re:OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[Anonymous Coward]

What I find even more worrying is that so far two people moderated that 'interesting'.

Re:OpenBSD 3.4 song?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you heard the latest song from the Hit Parade? It's called *BSD is dying

Don't go!

[in7ane]

Please don't go to either of these, and if you already are - come back now. I hear there is a good change of dying at either of these two conventions.

Re:Don't go!

[oaksey]

Is your employer MS?

Re:Don't go!

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to the subject of operating system, most of us can agree on at least one thing, and that is the simple plain truth that *BSD is dying. But the deeper question is why? Why did *BSD fail?

Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personalities?

The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. The hope is gone, replaced by an inconsolable despair. Mournful nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

Re:Don't go!

[Anonymous Coward]

Look at it this way. BSD won't be around in another year or two so why waste your time and coin.

Damn!

[fi-greenie]

Sounds too good to be true. I wish there would be similar stuff in Europe. But unluckily, I haven't found anything like this at this side of the Atlantic. Only things that come to my mind are targeted to corporate type of people, who can pay - let's say $1000 and more for a weekend for absolutely "nothing", like Kevin Mitnick's keynote.

Anyways, you guys have fun!

Re:Damn!

[Anonymous Coward]

There was a EuroBSD Con in Amsterdam last year
in November.

http://www.gufi.org/~gmarco/pictures/bsdcon2002/ in dex.php

Re:Damn!

[Anonymous Coward]

and the next one should take place in Paris in mid-2004. At least that's what the brand-new organization committe hopes.

stay tuned.

Re:Oh and...

[botzi]

Oh, and it's DAEMON, not devil.

Oh, and she actually is not so hot at all, but who cares.....geek-babes are rare enough...;oP

Re:Oh and...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, and she actually is not so hot at all

Speak for yourself. Some people think she's hot.

Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

..I don't see you winning any beauty contests yerself.

I'll take a natural-looking BSD Daemonette over airbrushed and implanted magazine trash any day.

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

*clap* *clap*

And she has WORKING grey matter between her ears. Mmmmmm working brains.

Too bad for my lustings I'm too old for her :-( Or local to her location.

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

"and implanted magazine trash any day."

That would better read as "and implanted magazine trash with tux pengiuns illegally gimped on any day"

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

*clap* *clap*
She has the clap? yikes....

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Hot does not mean implanted magazine trash.

Re:I agree..

[Anonymous Coward]

They're not allowed to. Dying is patented by SCO. Every BSD user has to pay $750 before it can die! And that includes any and every OS and application that ever used BSD-license code! BSD is illigitemate son of bastard SCO! You pay now!

Re:openbsd?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, but it does 'run Linux' in a sense. One of the add-on packages is called 'RedHat-Base' and includes a fair subset of RedHat libraries, with which which you run many Linux binaries.

(Yes, I know you intended your post as a troll -- sorry).

Ceren? attending?

[santiag0]

I hope so. Dust off the red daemon suit and get packing! For the few who don't know who Ceren is... nevermind, everyone knows who Ceren is!

Re:Ceren? attending?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought Ceren didn't wear latex any more.

Re:Ceren? attending?

[Anonymous Coward]

Ceren is a fscking hippie, dude.

huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Locked down and stolen?

How can you steal something that's truly free?

Re:huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Locked down and stolen?

Extend and embrace? Make a superior version from the freely available codebase and refuse to release the modifcations back to the Community.

Re:huh?

[realdpk]

Make a superior version from the freely available codebase and refuse to release the modifcations back to the Community.

Inspire competition, the community creates a superior program to the corporation, etc etc. This cycle has been going on for a very, very long time.

Some of us are OK with sharing, even if it means someone else might make money off of it.

Re:huh?

[tedu]

yeah, like i'm going to fork out $50 for a better grep. i'm pretty happy with the free one i have now.

Re:huh?

[Jeff Breker]

Really, well hot dang if I had know that the OpenBSD 3.4 cd's didn't include all that other stuff that is advertised on it (you know the OpenBSD operating system) I wouldn't have pre-ordered this $50 three cd copy of a BSD licienced grep... Thanks for the heads up, I owe you one.

Re:huh?

[Jeff Breker]

Grr sorry bout that... Thats what I get for reading slashdot at 1...

Re:huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to the subject of operating systems, most of us can agree on at least one thing, and that is the simple plain truth that *BSD is dying. But truly the deeper question is why? Why did *BSD fail?

Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personas?

The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. That hope is long gone, replaced by an inconsolable despair. A mournful, plaintive nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

Re:huh?

[psergiu]

How about forking a few hundred times more for a version of sort ? :)

Re:huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Bones: It's dead, Jim

Why so late?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not a troll.. I'm just curious why it took OpenBSD so long to start using the ELF format on the i386 platform? Linux had it for ages...

Re:Why so late?

[Anonymous Coward]

An interesting question. Elf binaries are vulnerable to viruses (like the remote shell trojan in Linux) but for all I know a.out may be as well. Might have had something to do with gcc platform support, but my best guess it that they just didn't have any overwhelming reason to change until recently.

Re:Why so late?

[squiggleslash]

At a guess: a.out works. If it works, why screw with it?

Remember, with OpenBSD the focus is on correctness and keeping the codebase free of bugs. Making drastic changes in areas where those changes are not absolutely necessary undermines that focus.

I haven't seen 3.3 or 3.4, but 3.2, which is barely a year old, still runs BIND 4. The current version of BIND is 9. This gives you some idea of how the OpenBSD team things.

FWIW, other versions of OpenBSD have switched to ELF. I run OpenBSD 3.2 on a SparcStation, and a quick "file /etc/ksh" reveals ksh to be "ELF 32-bit MSB executable, SPARC, version 1". I guess testing the system on obscurer platforms has paved the way for it to be released on the more dominant architecture.

Re:Why so late?

[SteelX]

OpenBSD 3.3 runs BIND 9.

$ uname -srm
OpenBSD 3.3 i386
$ /usr/sbin/named -v
BIND 9.2.2

One more thing that's old is OpenSSL. Here's OpenBSD 3.3's OpenSSL:

$ openssl version
OpenSSL 0.9.7-beta3 30 Jul 2002

But when I checked the CVS, it looks like they've imported the latest stable version of OpenSSL. So hopefully 3.4 would come with a decent version.

Re:Why so late?

[styrotech]

I haven't seen 3.3 or 3.4, but 3.2, which is barely a year old, still runs BIND 4. The current version of BIND is 9. This gives you some idea of how the OpenBSD team things.

BIND 9 (with patches) was included in OpenBSD 3.3.

Re:Why so late?

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to the subject of operating systems, most of us can agree on at least one thing, and that is the simple plain truth that *BSD is dying. But the deeper question is why? Why did *BSD fail?

Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personas?

The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. That hope is long gone, replaced by an inconsolable despair. A mournful, plaintive nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

Re:Why so late?

[hegemon17]

The work that needed to be done to switch i386 to ELF has been ready for a long time. But doing such a switch is a huge pain for the developers and users, so it was delayed for as long as possible. Same thing was with other architectures. alpha switched to ELF when the alpha port was almost dead and was violently revived by redoing lots of code and completly changing everything. sparc switched to ELF after a bug was discovered in how the dynamic linker worked. The dynamic linker didn't map the code segments executable which didn't really work after the kernel was taught to honor the executability bit on memory mappings (that was done to get non-exec stack). And i386 swichted because that was the only way to get proper non-exec stack. OpenBSD does big disruptive changes only when it's really necessary and when those changes come, all disruptions are clustered thightly.

Re:Why so late?

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple plain factual truth: *BSD is dying

Re:Why so late?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is one thing that is indisputable: *BSD is dying

Re:Why so late?

[Anonymous Coward]

A decent version of OpenSSL? What difference will it make to you? NONE! You're such a moron.

About time.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now if only someone would post the "I don't know what the big deal is about $OPERATING_SYSTEM. I've spent 30 minutes copying a 17 MB file" troll....

Re:A topic for discussion

[Anonymous Coward]

Theo de Raadt is a fucking raghead terrorist

Second deleted post

[Anonymous Coward]

this is already the second deleted post i've experienced on slashdot.

pretty soon after this article was made public, i wrote a post commenting on how slow the traffic appeared to be and that i even had to check the news if something had happened to the us internet.

now it's nowhere to be found.

Re:Second deleted post

[ThreeFarthingStone]

Your post is here. It is not deleted. You can find it on the main page just above the capital-letter "article summary" and below the "removing some utilities" comments.

Demon suit? No

[Anonymous Coward]

Demon suit? No. This is *BSD you are talking about. Dress as the Grim Reaper, or if you are so inclined, Eric the Angel of Death from "Touched by an Angel".

Re:Circumcised penises are GROSS

[Anonymous Coward]

Shutup, and suck my circumcised penis. It's good for you bitch. Good girl.

Re:Slow response

[norculf]

We're all too busy being fat and rambling around in our SUVs to read Slashdot right now. Check back in an hour.

Re:Circumcised penises are GROSS

[Anonymous Coward]

Hi Linux Chick,

I'm glad you appreciate us uncircumsised guys. Please consider a career in Europe as America's goodwill ambassador and we'll provide you with all the uncut open sauce cocks you'll ever need.

The OpenBSD 3.4 Wailing Song

[Anonymous Coward]

The OpenBSD 3.4 Wailing Song

What's left for me to see
In my ship I sailed so far
What can the answer be
Don't know what the questions are.
And after all I've done
Still I cannot feel the sun
Tell me save me
In the end our lost souls must repent.
I must know it is for certain
Can it be the final curtain
As long as the wind will blow
I'll be searching high and low.
Who knows what's really true
They say the end is so near
Why are we all so cruel
We just fill ourselves with fear.
And heaven and hell will turn
All that we love shall burn
Hear me trust me
Inthe end our lost sould must repent.
I must know it is for certain
Can it be the final curtain
As long as the wind will blow
I'll be searching high and low
Final curtain
Final curtain

Better Lock up your Daughters

[Anonymous Coward]

The BSD boys are coming to town.

Re:Better Lock up your Daughters

[Anonymous Coward]

"Better lock up your daughters"

Sorry, but you misspelled sons.

Hope this helps.

DragonFly at BSDCon

[m.dillon]

I will be attending BSDCon this coming week and will be setting up a BoF session on DragonFly as well as doing a quicky summary WIP (Work In Progress) talk. Some extremely interesting work is being done in DragonFly as well as in other BSD's (FreeBSD-5, OpenBSD, and so forth). But the conference is not for the weak of heart. If all you care about is the next K00l music UI don't bother to come {EVIL GRIN}.

Re:DragonFly at BSDCon

[Anonymous Coward]

When it comes to the subject of operating systems, most of us can agree on at least one thing, and that is the simple plain truth that *BSD is dying. But the deeper question is why? Why did *BSD fail?

Once you get past the fact that *BSD is fragmented between a myriad of incompatible kernels, there is the historical record of failure and of failed operating systems. *BSD experienced moderate success about 15 years ago in academic circles. Since then it has been in steady decline. We all know *BSD keeps losing market share but why? Is it the problematic personalities of many of the key players? Or is it larger than their troubled personas?

The record is clear on one thing: no operating system has ever come back from the grave. Efforts to resuscitate *BSD are one step away from spiritualists wishing to communicate with the dead. As the situation grows more desperate for the adherents of this doomed OS, the sorrow takes hold. An unremitting gloom hangs like a death shroud over a once hopeful *BSD community. That hope is long gone, replaced by an inconsolable despair. A mournful, plaintive nostalgia has settled in. Now is the end time for *BSD.

Re:DragonFly at BSDCon

[Billly Gates]

Request?

Hey Dillion, I was wondering if you had plans to make drivers for cams on Dragonfly? I am sick and tired of those who say FreeBSD is deing, look at driver support, you should try Gentoo, etc. I noticed my usb keyboard had support from FreeBSD long before Linux, contary to what the trolls tell me.

Just a request since I love my logitech quickcam and hate using Windows all the time. I know kernel work is alot more important to you but I figured its worth a shot to ask.

Re:yup

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm hanging from my prehensile cock over a cliff face at three thousand feet(I'm a dolphin, so nothing new there). Does this count? Please respond ASAP, for my laptop is running out of batteries.

Re:A topic for discussion

[boudie]

A terrorist? Why that's like saying all Americans are assholes and get what they deserve...wait, poor example.

Re:BSD Dying?

[Anonymous Coward]

It is, it just has extremely long half lifes.

OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[evilviper]

deadly.org, which was previously the premiere place for OpenBSDers to learn and communicate has now disabled comments completely. Comments, 90% from intelligent and informed users, happened to be the highlight of the site, but now it's all over because the admins are very unhappy about a pair of trolls, and aren't willing to do anything anti-troll. instead, they shut the door completely.

So, I wonder if anyone here knows of another site that will take-over? BSD-specific, with knowledgable users, and plenty of comments... BSDforums has a large number of factors working against it, keeping it from becomming anything really good, so rule that one out.

The BSD section here at /. has EVERYTHING working against it... VERY infrequent stories, few commenters, even fewer informed commentors, and nearly as many trolls as BSDers.

Any suggestions?

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's pretty sad that anyone that doesn't think OpenBSD is the greatest thing on earth is clearly a troll. What's that? You offered criticism? Troll! Delete his post! What a bunch of fucktards.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

That's pretty sad.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you know?

BSD is dying. j/k

btw I think its pretty amusing that whenever an article on BSD happens to end up on /. that the Troll to poster ratio is like 2 to 1.

I guess when its comes to BSD you reap what you sow.
Maybe if they weren't perceived as such a bunch of elitist assholes they wouldn't have so many people trolling them.

Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter. What does matter is most people don't like BSD users. It's going to take a lot to change that.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

Small wonder. Maybe if BSD users didn't troll so much on their own it wouldn't be a problem.

Let's pick a typical quote form a recent article.
On the the next release not containing various GPL tools.

"The OpenBSD project wants to do away with as much GPL'ed crap as possible."

Any they wonder why the linux users who over number them 1,000 to 1 can't stand them.

I agree there were some jerk trolls there, but really the whole way they made it like anything but the "OpenBSD way" was wrong was really fucking annoying.

The same could be said of many linux users here, but you just can't compare OpenBSD zealots with linux zealots.(Yes I hate that word as well)

Besides the fact that OpenBSD is not user friendly I really have zero problem with it. If they every manage to make it as friendly as Red Hat I'd probably start using it, but I don't think I could stomach dealing with many of the people in their community.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

I've never really visited there that often but when I did I never felt welcome.

See this article for why not. I've found people friendlier to linux at Activewin then there.

http://deadly.org/article.php3?sid=2003082923510 8

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[evilviper]

when I did I never felt welcome.

See this article for why not.

Well, you are pointing to a good example of trolls, and why comments have been disabled.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[evilviper]

Any they wonder why the linux users who over number them 1,000 to 1 can't stand them.

That is a OpenBSD site. There shouldn't be any Linux users there anyhow.

Besides, I find that comment quite appropriate... GNU version of programs are notorious for being huge, bloated, slow, and sometimes unstable.

but I don't think I could stomach dealing with many of the people in their community.

Good. Don't use it. You won't be missed. OpenBSD isn't Linux, nobody in the OpenBSD community is trying to take over the world.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD you grow in the ghetto, living second rate

And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate.

The places you play and where you stay

Looks like one great big alley way.

You'll admire all the numberbook takers,

Thugs, BSD pimps and pushers, and the big money makers.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

> There shouldn't be any Linux users there anyhow.

Yeah, because no REAL OpenBSD users would ever use Linux for anything. Or Solaris. Or OpenVMS. Or OS/2. Or even Windows.

News Flash: Not everyone wants to join the Cult of Theo.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[anthonyrcalgary]

OpenBSD zealots, GPL zealots, MacOS X zealots...

There's a lot of cults to choose from.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[evilviper]

Yeah, because no REAL OpenBSD users would ever use Linux for anything.

Give me a break... I use Linux myself. I was refering to people who use Linux exclusively, since you can't be outnumbered by 1,000:1, or hated by yourself now can you?

It's going to take a lot more than taking a sentence out of context to troll here.

Not everyone wants to join the Cult of Theo.

In fact, I dare say that absolutely nobody wants to join the non-existant cult of Theo. On the other hand, the cult of RMS followers is going strong.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[evilviper]

AFAIK, only one post was deleted for trolling, and that was moments before comments were entirely disabled. I don't think that removing one missinformed, infamatory, anti-OpenBSD comment, and leaving the rest of the thousands in place, really counts as censorship.

Take your trolling to SecurityFocus if you want to be a PaX fanboy.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[evilviper]

What does matter is most people don't like BSD users.

Not true. What you should say, is that most *Linux Users* don't like BSD users, or at least that was true just a few years ago. I think it's safe to say that (to a much lesser extent) the reverse is true. Many Linux users all too often make themselves look like dumb children on BSD mailing lists and websites. You could say that is a definate advantage of BSDers, that they tend to stay on their own ground, while Linuxers seem to stray from their own herds, and make asses of themselves by being all-too-vocal where they don't belong.

These Linuxers are the exceptions of course, but so are the elitist BSDers, and we are talking about perceptions.

Of course, you could also accurately say that most Windows users don't like Linux users, although they don't mind BSDer one bit. The difference being that Linux users seem to think they need to take over the world, and try to convert anyone that isn't using their OS, while BSDers don't.

Of course, you could even go a step further, and say that most Unixers don't like Windows users, for the same reason that BSDers don't like Linuxers.

So, tell me what the problem is... Each group has a lot of negative perceptions about them, but BSDers clearly seem to get the worst of it.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

Who said anything about censorship? The OpenBSD fanboys are so far up Theo's ass they're unable to think for themselves and accept that there MIGHT be other ways to approach a problem.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[evilviper]

Who said anything about censorship?

The parent did... And I block-quote:

anyone that doesn't think OpenBSD is the greatest thing on earth is clearly a troll

That implies censorship of comments because they don't refect the official, established point of view. Just because you don't say the word censorship, doesn't mean you aren't talking about it.

The OpenBSD fanboys are so far up Theo's ass they're unable to think for themselves and accept that there MIGHT be other ways to approach a problem.

-1: O.T. Rant

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[vesamies]

Quoting the first post in that page: "Portage is the pure sh*t". Surely, the site is better without such comments. Deadly.org is not dying, it's just much better without all that stuff about what is right or wrong software.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

Come on -- You seriously deny that there's a Cult of Personality surrounding Theo and OpenBSD? If so, you either are an ignoramous or a member -- or both.

RMS has his minions, sure. But unlike the tiny OpenBSD community, there's quite a lot of high profile dispute over both ideology and technical direction in the Linux world.

The whole reason your board was shut down is apparently because dissent (aka "trolls") can not be tolerated. (I read the Portage/BSD thread posted, and the only trolling I saw came from the pro-BSD people.)

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been on both sides of the street, and although your mileage may vary, my experience has been that a good portion of the BSD crowd have some unresolved issues. Some might use the term maladjusted. In fact it was one of the reasons I gave up on BSD after about three years.

In the wise words of Chris G Demetriou (NetBSD core): "When i think of "politics," i think of Jordan Hubbard, flat out lying about what's in, or going to be in, FreeBSD, or what the system can do, or what's wrong with the system. (worth noting: I've come to understand Kolstad, even see him as a reasonable person. I see jordan as a _liar_, period.) _that's_ not the game that we, or i, play."

Unfortunately, it's not its only problem. Constant flamage and hypocrisy between developers has resulted in a system that is mediocre at best. Too much time spent in flames and useless politics has resulted in a system that has to copy from others to survive (NetBSD's RAIDFrame, rcng and a dozen userland tools), and that is constantly playing catchup, with Linux in the hype area, with NetBSD in the technical area.

Do yourselves a favor and download the latest SuSE ISO.

Thank you.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

Theo is a weirdo. Very weird dude.

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Please stop posting on these forums. Your comments are not welcome. Freespeech doesn't apply to people like you.

BSD is not fading out. GET A DAMN CLUE.

OpenBSD, FreeBSD, NetBSD and...lets not forget, APPLE'S MAC OS X - ARE ALL GOING -STRONG-

Just because "CNET" doesn't have hype stories on them everyday, does that make them less of an OS?

Have you been living under a rock? I think so.

There is not much difference to Linux. Linux today is just a distro with a bunch of GUI's tacked on, this is what makes Linux for A LOT of people. Everything else is pretty much available accross the board.

BSD hardware support is more than good enough. All the popular hardware works fine. and sometimes commerical driver support sucks, eg nvidia's drivers. I'd rather the open source community write some of those drivers.

If projects like Mozilla, OpenOffice etc were coded to be a bit more portable, they would be running fine on any BSD. It's not impossible to get Mozilla and OpenOffice (talking desktops here) running on OpenBSD - just takes a bit more effort than it should.

FreeBSD has very good commericial support. You have no idea, really.

Maintream...does it really matter what the kids are using to play their MP3s on? Down with Microsoft! yay! Lets clone the Windows gui!

hobby. Linux is more of a saddled hobby to administer than BSD anyday. FreeBSD and OpenBSD configure and lock down with ease. I can't say I'd use Linux for any of my servers, the stability is just not there.

Anyway that's enough for you, you're just a common troll and you've been fed. Happy?

Re:OpenBSD Journal is dying (not a troll)

[Anonymous Coward]

FreeBSD has very good commericial support. You have no idea, really.

With statements like that, clearly neither do you.

non-executable stack?

[Rock Ridge]

Are the BSDs working on this? It seems it would be a "good thing," since most of the cracks hope to smash the stack and execute some mal-code. Solaris may have had this feature, but not sure.

-Rock

Re:non-executable stack?

[RdsArts]

OpenBSD has had it since at least 3.3. There was a large amount of press about it when they announced it, relatively close to the time they had the DARPA funding pulled.

Re:non-executable stack?

[Schubert]

It has been in OpenBSD since at least 3.2 if memory serves (http://www.openbsd.org/plus32.html | grep non-exec)

Re:non-executable stack?

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD you grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate.
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way.
You'll admire all the numberbook takers,
Thugs, BSD pimps and pushers, and the big money makers.

Re:non-executable stack?

[anthonyrcalgary]

OpenBSD has it on most architechtures as of 3.3, and i386 has it in the CURRENT tree, so it'll be included in 3.4 AFAIK.

I don't know what the other BSD's are doing about it. It takes a fair bit of work in the kernel, so it's not a straight port.

Re:non-executable stack?

[Anonymous Coward]

Freebsd Patch is here...

http://www.trl.ibm.com/projects/security/ssp/bui ld freebsd.html
works luvverrly...

New Leaders

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, welcome our new BSD overlords. I look forward to a kind and benevolent reign as compared to unkind and irrelevent reign of SCO!

Obvious troll...

[Anonymous Coward]

No one uses *BSD you fool! It's dead!

Silly troll, that's like saying "My 2000 Ford model T takes forever to get up to 60MPH and when it does get to 60 the car always falls apart! Why don't people use other faster, cheaper, more stable cars?"

Next time you troll make sure you at least create a believable situation (ie don't say you're running an OS that doesn't even exist anymore)

Yet another...

[Anonymous Coward]

Bronson, Charles

Re:BSD troubles

[MobyTurbo]

don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you BSD fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a BSD box (a PIII 800 w/512 Megs of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes.

This troll is a cut and paste change of a nearly 5 year old troll written attacking the alleged performance of a pre OS X Apple Macintosh. See the original troll, which is identical except for a few words changed to substitute "BSD" for "Mac" and "8600/300" for "Pentium" The BSD trolls are getting more and more lame; as if they weren't lame to begin with... Desperately resorting to cut and paste trolls, red ink flows like a river of blood. ;-)

Fact: *BSD trolls are dying.

naughty (Re:Soothing break)

[Anonymous Coward]

I would prefer something a bit more naughty.

Hate to be the bearer of bad news...

[Anonymous Coward]

But the entire message was ripped of from this post, which was, say what you will, at least on topic.

Fine trolling, nonetheless.

Re:BSD troubles

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's hope somebody goes Columbine all over these stupid trolls.

Soon?-BSDs convoluted path.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Why, god. Why is it that an OS must be usable "on the desktop", "by mom", or by "the regular consumers" in order for it to be considered "good"? First we had Linux, and then they mom-ified Linux. Now you want them to mom-ify *BSD too? Fuck that shit!"

Well I guess that explains the conversation I had with a BSD bigot last friday. Who basically only had negative things to say about alternatives (Guess what? XP is UNIX. WoW!). I think he (and you) miss the big picture. If you want your OS to continue? You have to have people come in and use it. They have to start somewere, and as I see it that "somewere" starts at a cliff and goes up from there. Some might try Linux or other easy to get started OS, and then migrate to the BSDs. But it would be overall better for the BSDs if the path was a straighter one. Now if they don't want to do any of that, fine. But don't be complaining about the consequences.

Re:Soon?-BSDs convoluted path.

[JamesTRexx]

Actually, I found FreeBSD very easy to install the first time, and also very fast to install.
I was surprised at the speed in which I had FreeBSD/KDE running. Much faster than a Windows 2000 install. Not to mention installing a simple web/ftp/nfs server.
That was what I was looking for at that time, a server set up in 5 minutes instead of at least half an hour.

Re:Old Ike, BSD con

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn I really enjoyed that story. If you have any more stories about Ike can you mail em to deraadt@theos.com?

Re:Elegy for BSD

[Anonymous Coward]

Speaking of zits, let's hope you'll be columbined too.

Re:Oh and...

[Anonymous Coward]

She's better looking than anyone YOU can get.

Re:Circumcised penises are GROSS

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not just gross, it is utterly tragic. There will come a time that history will look upon male circumcision as a practice that is just as savage and beastly as the one that is still performed regularly on young females in many backwards parts of the world.

The male foreskin contains thousands of nerve endings and it serves an essential function in normal sexual activity. Circumcision has been proven to lead to a wide variety of disorders of which premature impotence is by far the most common.

Because of the practice of mass circumsion in the United States, almost 70% of the adult male population today suffers from some type of sexual disfunction ranging from mild to severe.

If you have already been cut, you have my sincere sympathies. If not, fight for your foreskin no matter what the physician says. And should you have a young son or one on the way perhaps, I implore you: Spare him.

Please see this page for more information about this important issue.

Re:BSD joins the B team

[Anonymous Coward]

Bobby Bonds. There's a double B.

Mods: Mod this -9999999, mentioning a sports figure.

Re:New gnaaBSD for gay nigger computing!

[Anonymous Coward]

yes, but only anally for practice fucking real guys

Nice troll...

[nacturation]

You troll initially, respond AC to your own post, and troll in the reply to your AC post. I've been ignoring that "Have you meta-moderated lately?" message, but time to head right on over...

Re:Nice troll...

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD you grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate.
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way.
You'll admire all the numberbook takers,
Thugs, BSD pimps and pushers, and the big money makers.

Re:Nice troll...

[Anonymous Coward]

Onoe we might lose a karma point!!!1!

Please please please don't throw me in the briar patch, Mr. Brer Bear!

Re:Nice troll...

[nacturation]

Onoe we might lose a karma point!!!1!

Please please please don't throw me in the briar patch, Mr. Brer Bear!

Uh oh, looks like I've angered the trolls. Obviously someone's mother didn't pay him enough attention as a child. Hey AC, go post a couple more *BSD is dying threads -- someone just might notice you and give you the recognition you so desperately crave!

Re:Nice troll...

[Anonymous Coward]

I bet you feel tingly in your pants and smart upstairs when you tilt at windmills like this.

Re:Nice troll...

[Anonymous Coward]

You must think you're pretty hot stuff, pretty damn smooth to sit there in your mother's basement spending your days replying to anonymous posts; get a clue, the world isn't to be lived in underground and behind the glare of your 14" hand-me-down SVGA monitor, fool.

hush

[Anonymous Coward]

it seems that we have a competitor tfor egg troll.

life and Death in the BSD Ghetto

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD you grow in the ghetto, living second rate
And your eyes will sing a song of deep hate.
The places you play and where you stay
Looks like one great big alley way.
You'll admire all the numberbook takers,
Thugs, BSD pimps and pushers, and the big money makers.

Re:openbsd?

[Anonymous Coward]

This begs the question: If you're going to be running Linux programs, why not juse use Linux?

After all, if you're going to be running the 'insecure' Redhat binaries on there anyway, you may as well just use Redhat, since the differences between the two are minor.

MOD PARENT UP +1 INFORMATIVE

[Anonymous Coward]

They want it to be "stolen"...

[anthonyrcalgary]

I've never quite understood how the BSD people can think they've got freedom when their work may be locked down and stolen by a corporation any time.

You don't understand the BSD license. It's impossible to steal something that's given freely. BSD has been such a seminal influence precisely because the code can be "stolen". That's the intent.

Besides, AT&T did try to steal (in the "you can't use it anymore" sense of the word) BSD's code. They lost.

If he thinks separating from the protection granted by GPL will further the survivability of OpenBSD, he's seriously mistaken.

BSD predates the GPL.

Re:They want it to be "stolen"...

[Brandybuck]

There once has a fabulous apple tree. No matter how many apples one would take from it, there were just as many as before! When this was heard by the villagers they all rushed to the apple tree and took apples. But no matter how many they took, there were just as many apples as before. But some of them came and took apples and locked them within a chest, so that none could steal them. And they laughed at the other villagers, saying, "Look, they do not protect their apples. Surely a thief will come and steal them."

150, 200, ? the over/under ?

[Anonymous Coward]

Last time only about 100 people showed up, no exhibitors, no swag.
This show is NOT very interesting at all if you are used to normal trade shows.
I would only recommend it if you have some sort of code you want to talk about, otherwise it's no soap.

Very interesting, but...

[edunbar93]

Significant enhancements have been made in this release, including i386 switch to ELF executable format, further W^X improvements for i386...

Yes, but what *I* want to know is whether the BSD babes are going to be there. :D

Mmmm. Mondo cleavage and red latex!

*nods*

[JamesTRexx]

I agree with evilpiper, that post is a good example of closed minded people. Maybe it's just too much to ask of people to give everyone their right to use whatever OS/program they want instead of dissing them.

Re:*nods*

[evilviper]

I agree with evilpiper,

Interesting... I don't know anyone named evilpiper.

Re:*nods*

[JamesTRexx]

Blah!
See? Overtime and lack of sleep kills more braincells than alcohol can make up for it... *lol*

Re:*nods*

[Anonymous Coward]

Correction.

• BSD is dying
• OpenBSD Journal is dying.

Hope this helps.

Re:*nods*

[Anonymous Coward]

He mistook you for the Piper at the Gates of Dawn.

Re:*nods*

[evilviper]

Don't worry about it too much... I'm just being kinda nit-picky.

Re:What I know about BSD and why it sucks

[Anonymous Coward]

true: 1, 2, 3, 4, 8, 10

This makes sense because

[Anonymous Coward]

There seem to be a lot of trolls in this topic, unfortunately :(

I hope that they won't ruin the discussion about your valuable posting however. Though critical, you present a valid and objective argument and back up your point of view with convincing evidence. Thank you for taking the time to come up with a truly informative posting, which deserves some positive moderation to stand out.

Re:BSD troubles

[Dahan]

Even Emacs Lite is straining to keep up as I type this.

This part bugs me everytime I see it... how about changing "Emacs Lite" to MicroEmacs next time?

Re:FIRST POST!

[Anonymous Coward]

Q: What do you call a large gathering of BSD enthusiasts?

A: A funeral.

Keynote: Computing fallacies

[alien_blueprint]

I notice that the keynote speaker is Michi Henning, and he is delivering the "Computing Fallacies" talk again, presumably in an updated form.

Since this very presentation was discussed on /. previously, it might be interesting for an attendee to take notes so that we can compare with last time. Does he believe things have improved, or not, and why?

Re:BSD troubles

[Anonymous Coward]

heh.. yeah, that would make sense... actually, I certainly could see my Mac SE/30 running NetBSD taking a long time. 16Mhz 68030, its a bit slow. But, there's a certain "geek factor" to having a little portable (ok, "luggable") machine that can run BSD. Although, my P3/500 laptop is probably more efficient.

Links to ordering site & items --

[Anonymous Coward]

Support the OpenBSD developers by getting a 3.4 CD $40 or for Europe EUR 45

There is a new Tshirt: 3.4 Tshirt $20 or for Europe EUR 20

The new 3.4 poster is very nice too, get it for $10 US or EUR 14 in Europe

If you prefer OpenSSH, have a look at this new Tshirt OpenSSH 2 $20 or for Europe EUR 20

thank you.

OpenBSD Book: Building Firewalls with OpenBSD

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD is certainly not dying! There's even a new book on PF, "Building Firewalls with OpenBSD and PF". Now, that' s a niche book! But very much needed.

Thanks Jacek!

Re:FIRST POST!

[Anonymous Coward]

Q: Why is the devil used as a BSD mascot?

A: Because the BSDs are not only dying but going to hell.

Re:FIRST POST!

[Anonymous Coward]

Q: What do you call a large gathering of Linux enthusiasts?

A: A greek orgy.

Why don't you show some proof?

[Anonymous Coward]

Show us proof you troll.

Re:BSD troubles

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, better yet, use a real text editor.

Haiku

[Anonymous Coward]

Mangled car crash death
Hot flame, bent metal, crushing force
BSD farewell

Re:To BSD is dying trolls

[Anonymous Coward]

Cool. Thanks for the feedback.

Re:thank you for supporting troll kind..

[Anonymous Coward]

people like you are the cancer of the Internet, just like spammers. actually read what the person in the previous most was saying. it is mostly true. he/she seemed to hit a nerve with you at least, you responded. i find it funny that a troll is telling someone else to fuck off and die, you have got it backwards buddy. you have nothing good to say about the subject at hand (bsd), so your presence is not welcome. i actually feel a bit sorry for you that your life is so sad, this is all you have. you seem to feel insecure or threatened by other operating systems besides your own. seek professional help. you can express what ever you want, but there is a right time and place, which you are having trouble understanding.

Oh cool!

[Anonymous Coward]

All three of the participants can rent a hot tub suite at the Holiday Inn!

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


30283

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


20677

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


4460

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


6994

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


6643

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


12591

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


27554

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


20719

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


29520

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


25149

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


14827

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


31007

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


23332

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


24544

Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

[Anonymous Coward]

Elegy For *BSD

I am a *BSD user
and I try hard to be brave
That is a tall order
*BSD's foot is in the grave.

I tap at my toy keyboard
and whistle a happy tune
but keeping happy's so hard,
*BSD died so soon.

Each day I wake and softly sob
Nightfall finds me crying
Not only am I a zit faced slob
but *BSD is dying.


20495

Cry me a river! Go fuck yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been a slashdot user for at least 4 years now. I've seen plenty of bullshit from *BSD users claiming that Linux is shit and *BSD was uber.

Now when the tables are turned, you cry like a little three year old. Wahh! Wahh! Mommy! Johnny is making fun of me!

Re:Cry me a river! Go fuck yourself!

[Anonymous Coward]

Explain how the tables are turned. Give some examples of this bullshit.

this means nothing

it's like if SuSE went under tomorrow, would Linux suffer as a whole? no.

Re:thank you for supporting troll kind..

[Anonymous Coward]

Its amazing that pro-BSD comments are automatically insightful to BSD moderators and anything thats actually truthful and correct is moderated down by the same peope.

We know your true colors.

*BSD is dying

[Anonymous Coward]

Fact: *BSD is dying

It is common knowledge that *BSD is dying, that ever hapless *BSD is mired in an irrecoverable and mortifying tangle of fatal trouble. It is perhaps anybody's guess as to which *BSD is the worst off of an admittedly suffering *BSD community. The numbers continue to decline for *BSD but FreeBSD may be hurting the most. Look at the numbers. The loss of user base for FreeBSD continues in a head spinning downward spiral.

OpenBSD leader Theo states that there are 7000 users of OpenBSD. How many users of BSD are there? Let's see. The number of OpenBSD versus NetBSD posts on Usenet is roughly in ratio of 5 to 1. Therefore there are about 7000/5 = 1400 NetBSD users. BSD/OS posts on Usenet are about half of the volume of NetBSD posts. Therefore there are about 700 users of BSD/OS. A recent article put FreeBSD at about 80 percent of the *BSD market. Therefore there are (7000+1400+700)*4 = 36400 FreeBSD users. This is consistent with the number of FreeBSD Usenet posts.

Due to the troubles of Walnut Creek, abysmal sales and so on, FreeBSD went out of business and was taken over by BSDI who sell another troubled OS. Now BSDI is also dead, its corpse turned over to yet another charnel house.

All major marketing surveys show that *BSD has steadily declined in market share. *BSD is very sick and its long term survival prospects are very dim. If *BSD is to survive at all it will be among hobbyist dilettante dabblers. In all truth, for practical purposes *BSD is already dead. It is a dead man walking.

Fact: *BSD is dying

To the *BSD fanboys:

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop posting. Your thoughts are not welcome, or wanted, anywhere on the Internet

No one cares what people like you think. Just keep your crap and troll posts to yourselfs.

Where did you get the idea that YOU have a right to post? Freespeach is abused by people like you.

Just close your mouth and go away. Or pay for that oxygen you are wasting.

Re:To the *BSD fanboys:

[Anonymous Coward]

CUMVAT!

*BSD Suxors

[Anonymous Coward]

*BSD Suxors

In a startling turn of events today, a previously little-known fact
came into the public eye: "*BSD Sux0rs".

This came as a complete surprise to the BUWLA, or BSD Users With
Large Assholes, as they previously thought that *BSD 0wned.

"You see, even though I have never contributed code to any BSD
project, I thought it was my duty to be a big asshole to others
which don't use the OS I do, because it just 0wnz.", said one
FreeBSD user. "Now that I know it sux0rs, though, I have to go
find something else to be an asshole about."

One notorious OpenBSD fanatic known as WideOpen, told reporters,
"I have to kill myself. This isn't how it was supposed to happen.
My BSD has always been the best, and shouting that opinion in other
people's faces at every chance I got has been my only hobby. It
was all I ever did. It was what got me out of bed in the morning.
Now I have to die. I will jam my bedpost up my ass until I hit my
brain. It is the only way to go: BSD style."

In the volatile world of operating systems anything can happen.

"At least we don't sux0r as much as Windows users", BigAzz, a
relatively well-known NetBSD user said. "Screaming things in people's
faces is my calling. Now I need to scream that BSD sux0rs. What
a sad world. At least I won't kill myself like those uber-asshole
OpenBSD guys. They are just way over the top. Or were, at least."

Nobody knows for sure what the future holds for the state of operating
systems, but with Netcraft confirming the sux0r status, *BSD users
all over the world will have to stick something else up their asses
from now on or risk looking even more gay than they used to.

A troll replies...

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok buddy.

First off, learn how the Slashdot moderation works.

Second, spammers send many, many messages direct to people. If you don't want to read my posts then learn how to set your preferencing for reading comments. If you post too many lowly rated comments then your IP address gets banned. I've only ever had it banned twice.

Thirdly, a troll is free to speak his mind. In this case I strongly disagree with the users of *BSD and the OS itself. I'm gonna express this viewpoint where and whenever I like thank you very much.

Lastly, how you can identify someone's personality by reading their comments is beyond me. The internet is a strange place - most people lie about something. You are correct about the need for professional help though, please send the cash required to help me directly to me. Thank you.

P.S. *BSD is still dying..

Re:A troll replies...

[Anonymous Coward]

Fuck me, what drugs are you taking. Why I post is up to me. I see a submit button and use it. Strangely enough I don't have to resort to all caps to make my point. Obviously you read them and that is enough for me.

Posting trolls is what I enjoy and I won't be stopping any time soon. I find it quite amusing that people try to reason with trolls - we aren't here to be reasoned with.

The most amusing part of all this is that YOU are now contributing to the crap that makes up Slashdot. Ha ha. Get a sense of humour.

Actually, I use Mac OS X every workday. I also use Linux and even old Winblows. Again, you are taking your OSes far too seriously.

Again, because I can post trolls - I will post trolls. With your narrow minded thinking you may think that this statement is just illogical. It is indeed, but I don't give a rat's arse.

I will now be doubling my trolling efforts. Of course the trolls will be FUD, but you like FUD anyway.

Have a good day.

P.S. The latest Slashdot story confirms that one part of BSD has actually died. Therefore I conclude that "*BSD is dying"

Re:A troll replies...

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like the previous posters prediction was right

Re:BSD troubles

[Anonymous Coward]

Any way you slice it, it always comes out the same: *BSD is dying

Re:A topic for discussion

[Anonymous Coward]

BSD zealots are quick to deny the "death" of BSD nowadays by pointing to the existence of OS X, which has supposedly given BSD "thousands" of users. In fact this is a myth propagated by Apple, eager to tout the "Industrial Strength Unix Foundations" of their new "Darwin" OS.

The kernel of Darwin is not the BSD kernel, but rather the Mach kernel, In fact, the core of Darwin is of a totally different design to BSD, being of an elegant microkernel structure rather than the monolithic structure that BSD still retains. It is strange that Apple would choose to tout that their OS is based on 4.4BSD, which even by BSD standards is obsolete by over 10 years.

Darwin includes totally rewritten filesystem and network support and does not use the BSD code here either. In fact, BSD code is only used in the OS as a "skin" to wrap the underlying OS in order to provide a virtual Unix-like environment, in much the same way as Cygwin wraps Windows.

Higher up in userland, adapted versions of the BSD tools are used for the Unix command line, an odd choice, considering the GNU utilities are superior. Files are kept in odd places and in many cases manpages are out of date. Many basic system services such as user authentication are provided by Apple's own proprietary system rather than the traditional Unix methods. In general, the OS X command line is a lackluster and messy ordeal, and certainly radically unlike any BSD system.

Re:A topic for discussion

[Anonymous Coward]

You have no idea what you are talking about.

Which part of "you're a trolling parasite" don't you understand?

The kernel in darwin is more monlithic than you think it is. Go read up on it. Everytime someone says OS X has a micro kernel, you'll see a lot of details as to why it really isn't. Read up on it.
This document might help you get a clue: http://www.maths.mq.edu.au/~steffen/talks/comp342- macosx-darwin.pdf

"GNU utilities are superior? Now the licence of code is related to the quality of it? You're on drugs.

"Files are kept in odd places and in many cases manpages are out of date."

The same is true with any UNIX based OS, some things are in different places.

wtf? are you illiterate?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm talking about BSD vs Linux troll posts. Has nothing to do with companies dying.

Re:wtf? are you illiterate?

[Anonymous Coward]

The only table that is turning is for other trolls.

As for zealots, they are in every crowd unfortunately.

All I can is, at least BSD trolling is mostly contained to Slashdot. The real BSD forums don't have this much of a problem, so at least the Internet community can know that this forum is not to be taken seriously. Other sites at least have some method to prevent trolls, IP stamping "anonymous" posts and the like. If Slashdot had some kind of filter to prevent duplicate posts, there would also be less rubbish. The cut'n'paste troll kiddies would have a harder time, at least.

This is just a honeypot for trolls, if you will.

So anyone that wants real discussion, use one of the dedicated *BSD sites.

I won't post links because I think it'd be funny to watch a troll fumbling around trying to use a search engine. Copying and pasting is about the limit of their ability. However they worked out how to use a submit button, so maybe there is hope for them yet?

Re:What We Can Learn From BSD

[ddimas]

That's too bad. I always thought of BSD as the pioneering FOSS. BSD and GNU(later GNU/Linux) both had their start at the same time and in response to the same problem (AT&T raped the Unix community). BSD just managed to get a full OS out there first.

I will mourn the passing of BSD.

What BSDCon really is

[Anonymous Coward]

BSDCon is synonymous with the word funeral