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Spam And Alston - From Luddite To Pin-Up?

templeton069 writes "Alston (the Australian Communications Minister) has been lambasted as the 'world's greatest Luddite' for a long time but the spam bill introduced to the Australian Parliament last week seems to have struck an almost magical balance with everyone from the Internet Industry Association, the Coalition Against Bulk Unsolicited Email and the Direct Marketing Association, suggesting that it is about as good as it gets. So what's the story -- can you go from Luddite to pin-up in one step? And more importantly, does the legislation provide a template for other jurisdictions to implement low-pain anti-spam legislation?"

175 comments

  1. major problem.. by jcr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Non-profit groups are exempt.

    Sorry, but I don't like spammers that are trying to save my soul any more than spammers who want to sell me placebos to increase my sexual prowess.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:major problem.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Your comment might sound a little whiney to some moderators, but it raises a very important point. There is nothing stopping a team of unscrupulous direct marketers opening a "non-profit" organization that does the actual spamming dirty work on behalf of the parent organization. This is a huge hole in the legislation that needs to be fixed.

    2. Re:major problem.. by TLouden · · Score: 0

      All spam is bad spam unless you've got the SPAMMO FILTER 3000. Get yours today and never worry about spam again. A panel of experts recomend it and your sex life will improve. Free Pr0n! :D

      --
      -Tim Louden
    3. Re:major problem.. by stephens_domain · · Score: 1

      Presumably the spam would also be required to be related to real non-profit.org business. It would also probably lead to other law suits if they tried it (false advertising, mis-representation, blah blah).

      --

      ..
    4. Re:major problem.. by bersl2 · · Score: 1

      spammers who want to sell me placebos to increase my sexual prowess.

      Why do you need the placebos when you could have a pin-up of a government official? Dressed as a Luddite, nonetheless. I don't know about you, but I have a Luddite fetish.

      Oh, shit! I... uh...

      [Narrator: Things are not looking up for Bersl...]

    5. Re:major problem.. by code_echelon · · Score: 1

      Say no to non-profit groups unless there are non-profit sites that want to be based on making me profit. Does that make them non-profit?hmmm. As for the comment about the Luddites being shuned upon by the pinups I am deeply offended as I come from a long line of Luddites. I feel that my great ancestors helped society as if they hadn't protested the advancement in technology Microsoft may have caught on faster and if Gates had any more damn money I can imagine a world where we are enslaved by our horrible emperor Gates and turned into cyborg like beings that will be used to search the universe for anything of material and to claim it for Gates. The remainder of us would be used to fight the Linux Republic and hunt down there knoble warrior leaders. At first there would be three battles however after a few generations it started to be extended to 10 battles and it sort of lost its touch. Sort of like the game telephone you played when you were a kid.

    6. Re:major problem.. by kudos200 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Non-profit groups are exempt.

      Sorry, but I don't like spammers that are trying to save my soul any more than spammers who want to sell me placebos to increase my sexual prowess.

      That may be true, but what percentage of the spam you receive is trying to save your soul? If your inbox looks anything like mine, it's full of low-interest loan offers, porn offers, and penile enlargement stuff. If that stuff can be eradicated with this bill, then I'd be all for it. I, for one, don't get much non-profit spam at all, if any. But I don't know about everyone else.

      The notion (that another reply offered) that penile enlargement companies will spawn non-profits just to do the spamming for them seems awfully far-fetched to me. I was under the impression that non-profits had to meet certain criteria or something of that sort. I highly doubt an organization would be allowed to keep non-profit status if it were sending out millions of porn ads a day.

      Of course, as usual, this is all just my opinion, and if the past is any indicator, it's highly likely that I'm wrong.

    7. Re:major problem.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      absolutely. other peoples' first amendment rights do not exist in my inbox. or my "junk mail" folder, for that matter.

    8. Re:major problem.. by Anthony · · Score: 1

      Covers Political parties.... They explicitly excluded political parties frlom the Privacy legislation.

      --
      Slashdot: Where nerds gather to pool their ignorance
    9. Re:major problem.. by simonbrock · · Score: 3, Informative

      The problem is the definition of consent which says: consent that can reasonably be inferred from: (i) the conduct; and (ii) the business and other relationships This is weaker than the notions of opt-in and opt-out being used in Europe and due to come into law this year. If you register on a supermarket's web site for home delivery, that supermarket can send you special offer emails because it might be inferred you are interested in them. The new European legislation requires such emailing to be explicit and selectable at time of registration. Simon.

    10. Re:major problem.. by BrokenHalo · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I can't say I've seen any spam from non-profit groups, but it strikes me that most probably realise that funds are hard enough to come by without pissing people off.

      95% of the spam I've had over the last week has been from http://superrxsalesman.info (prescription drugs) domain registered in Seattle. I can't see our Australian government having any teeth to use against these guys.

    11. Re:major problem.. by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1
      Covers Political parties.... They explicitly excluded political parties frlom the Privacy legislation.

      This is Australia we're talking about here. If a politician started spamming people, he would very quickly learn the error of his ways.

      A number of us are accustomed to taking direct action, and the miscreant would probably get his teeth knocked so far down his throat that he would have to stick his toothbrush up his arse.

    12. Re:major problem.. by TekPolitik · · Score: 1
      Non-profit groups are exempt.

      No, charities, religious organisiations and political parties are exempt. It's extraordinarily difficult to become a charity in law, and basically impossible to become a charity in such a way as to work around the provisions in this Bill. Becoming a registered political party is difficult too (although I would be surprised if some of the restrictions on becoming a political party weren't ruled unconstitutional if somebody were to challenge them). Becoming a religious organisation might be easier in principle, but if the religious aspect is a sham, then it won't be a religious organisation in the law (that is, it's not enough to *say* you are a religious organisation - religion would have to be a significant part of the organisation's activities).

    13. Re:major problem.. by TekPolitik · · Score: 1
      If you register on a supermarket's web site for home delivery, that supermarket can send you special offer emails because it might be inferred you are interested in them.

      This sort of conduct is (already) covered by the Privacy Act rather than this proposed legislation. The reason is that it's thought the nature of the problems have enough differences that there should be different approaches to dealing with them.

    14. Re:major problem.. by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      If your inbox looks anything like mine, it's full of low-interest loan offers, porn offers, and penile enlargement stuff.

      Really? My inbox is full of messages from "Microsoft" wanting me to install an attached security patch to protect me from viruses and worms.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  2. Anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone can blurt what he has, now lets see him execute it.

    1. Re:Anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Anyone can blurt what he has, now lets see him execute it.

      or better, execute a few spammers.

  3. Why's everyone so excited? by Erick+the+Red · · Score: 3, Funny

    I don't see anything about drawing and quartering spammers in that legislation!

    --

    DO NOT WRITE IN THIS SPACE

    ok
  4. The Secret by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 4, Funny

    The real secret to this Luddite's success against spam is the provision in the bill banning spammers from possessing computers or electronic equipment of any kind. Apparently, he felt that carrier pidgeon would be the the best way to transport the spam of the future.

    1. Re:The Secret by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Makes sense.
      Pidgeons are omnivorous.
      They would eat the can of spam before it arrived.

    2. Re:The Secret by GloomE · · Score: 1

      In doing so they would turn it into something more easily recognisable for what it is.

    3. Re:The Secret by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      The problem is running UUCP on an abacus. If you can't even have a computer, IP over avian carriers will not help you.

      Besides, well, ethernet is a switched network, it's functionally identical to the telephone network, and the telephone network is going away. Remember the story about AT&T and Spring moving toward entirely IP-based service? The moment you start using pigeons to carry data to your computer, it becomes just another phone line. Or, so you could argue.

      If you built a difference engine to e-mail, guess what? It's just another computer. Regardless of if it's sticking its output into a pigeon's ass, or playing the bongos.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:The Secret by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Worse than UUCP, try running PGP on an abacus. I think that's a task suited for some Tibetan monk monestary for the next few hundred years.

  5. Sad that something similar won't work in the US. by dnotj · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    We have too many flippen lawyers.

    Reference the Do Not Call List earlier.

    --
    No more Micro$oft bashing from me. Its like bashing at the special olympics.
  6. Worst link ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    the bill can be linked to directly. If you want to get to it using the list liked to in the article then scroll down to number 124.

    1. Re:Worst link ever by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget the other part. Both in RTF format, cool.

  7. Count your change, daughters and pets by AndroidCat · · Score: 5, Insightful
    If the Direct Marketing Association likes it, then something is wrong. Odds are, there's a weasel clause that basically defines spam as "that which the DMA doesn't do".

    They don't mind banning those sleezy low-life spammers, but don't wish to restrict the targeted e-marketting of ethical businesses...

    I suppose I should read the article, but I bet it takes less than a minute to find the escape hatch in this law. I'll be back...

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    1. Re:Count your change, daughters and pets by Tristan+Tzara · · Score: 1

      I bet they are also mostly composed of telemarketers and junk mailers. Naturally, even scum competes with scum, so they've decided to support the ban on spam. :)

    2. Re:Count your change, daughters and pets by charvolant · · Score: 2, Insightful
      If the Direct Marketing Association likes it, then something is wrong. Odds are, there's a weasel clause that basically defines spam as "that which the DMA doesn't do".

      Kind of true. Straight telephone use is explicitly excluded (section 5.5). Section 6.7 also allows other messages to be administratively excluded -- which is perfectly sensible, as it allows oddities to be fixed up without resort to a new law.

      However, this is a bill that outlaws spam, not all kinds of direct marketing. Why wouldn't the DMA be delighted? It solves a major public relations headache for them.

    3. Re:Count your change, daughters and pets by AndroidCat · · Score: 3, Informative
      I didn't have time to wait through all the sub-sub-sub-search-and-rescue-clauses, but they don't seem to be banning spam so much as electronicly harvested lists. So long as the company can get your email address another way, make some claim that you opt'ed-in (ohboy), and have a working opt-out (double ohboy) then they can email you.

      This would favour main-sleaze emailers who have other ways to get your email than "millions" CDs. The DMA sometimes accepts restrictions, but only to preserve your PC as their advertising channel. (Didn't say that on the box when I bought it! "Athlon Advertising Channel"? Nope.)

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    4. Re:Count your change, daughters and pets by Dewsipper · · Score: 1

      Schedule 1--Designated commercial electronic messages... (c) the body is the supplier, or prospective supplier, of the goods or services concerned. So, as long as I intend to sell you those anatomy-enhancing jelly beans, it's not SPAM. I'm seeing the logic now....

    5. Re:Count your change, daughters and pets by TekPolitik · · Score: 1
      Direct Marketing Association likes it, then something is wrong. Odds are, there's a weasel clause that basically defines spam as "that which the DMA doesn't do"

      This is the Australian Direct Marketing Association, not their evil American cousins. The DMAs outside the US have basically come to the conclusion that Bob Wietzen (head of the DMA in the USA) is a world class moron without the first shadow of a clue on what should be done about spam.

    6. Re:Count your change, daughters and pets by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ADMA press release: http://www.adma.com.au/data/portal/00000947/conten t/78709001063933790078.pdf"...NOIE had adopted ADMA's recommendattions to permit business to business communications albeit on in limited and controlled circumstances."

      ie there are not laws specifically making sending spam to business illlegal (which does not make it LEGAL), there are other laws which, may possibly cover this area (ie junk fax law, computer crimes act etc.

    7. Re:Count your change, daughters and pets by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I would be perfectly happy if spam really, honestly and truly had to have a working opt-out, and spammers who didn't comply were slow-roasted, and more importantly, had to pay me. Not just a fine. I want the money, because I'm the one who has to suffer. I think we'd have to agree to a clause saying that if they were DoS'd then they would be exempt, but then you have to make very sure that they aren't the ones doing it. Still, you can investigate them for fraud, and if you made it a federal law, you could get deep into their lives. Don't like it? Don't spam.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  8. Heeeelp!!! by Best_Username_Ever · · Score: 3, Funny

    That Dingo stole my penis enlarger!

    1. Re:Heeeelp!!! by code_echelon · · Score: 1

      Some snakes are big enough that they eat dingos.

    2. Re:Heeeelp!!! by darkov · · Score: 2, Funny

      Look for the Dingo with an enormous penis.

    3. Re:Heeeelp!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Score: -1, Lame

    4. Re:Heeeelp!!! by Sneftel · · Score: 1

      in communist russia, snake eats dingo!

      --
      The opinions stated herein do not necessarily represent those of anybody at all. Deal with it.
    5. Re:Heeeelp!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That Dingo stole my penis enlarger!

      At least it did not steal your tiny penis!!

  9. Re:It's not that hard to redeem yourself... by stephens_domain · · Score: 1

    That is not redemption, that is buying a vote with an issue.

    --

    ..
  10. Easier solution by TLouden · · Score: 0, Insightful

    Just ignore it all. Everyone is making such a big deal of spam. A simple filter get's it all for me and I've got my email in some odd places. Why don't you focus that animosity towards something more damaging like the fricken flyers on every lamp post saying "10K+ a month, part time, work from home"???

    --
    -Tim Louden
    1. Re:Easier solution by Spetiam · · Score: 1

      no disrespect, but people are making a big deal out of spam because it is a big deal. i mean, some people have serious objections (moral, etc.) to being exposed to pornographic content, either pictures or just email titles.

      "jenna jameson raped by a horse!!!!!!!"

      am i advocating the censorship of horses raping women? yes, i am.

      also, "just deleting it" costs at least time for the individual, and money for commercial entities. i won't bother to go into that.

    2. Re:Easier solution by gregmac · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Why don't you focus that animosity towards something more damaging like the fricken flyers on every lamp post saying "10K+ a month, part time, work from home"???

      How is that "more damaging" ? While yes, it's perhaps ugly to see flyers stuck up all over the place, they're just visual - you can easily ignore them by not looking at them.

      It's like banner ads on webpages. It doesn't take much to become conditioned to ignoring them. When ads first started appearing in the middle of article text, they were very obtrusive and annoying. Now people are used to them, and it's easy to skip right past. Your brain just instantly says 'thats an ad, no interest to me' with perhaps the slight few that get your attention somehow. (And note to banner desingers/PHB's/whatever: that doesn't mean flashing graphics! That actually makes it worse, your brain just treats it as 'white noise' and totally blocks it out).

      I can notice this effect personally (and I'm sure many others can too) when I start reading an article that has an image for a headline (instead of using HTML). I'll be reading, and thinking 'what the hell is this about?' because to me, it just seemed to dive right into whatever it is talking about.. I'll have to sit back and take an overview of the page, then suddenly I realize that the headline is in giant letters right at the top. The problem was, my brain filtered it out just like it would for an ad or any other crap they stick in.

      Back to the flyers-vs-spam issue: while flyers are something you can look past and ignore, spam is something that you have to directly deal with. Perhaps it's pressing delete, perhaps it's setting up a filter (and hoping it doesn't catch anything legitimate). To take it to the real world, spam is less like flyers on lampposts, and more like a door-to-door salesman. Forces you to answer the door, and deal with him (slamming the door, to telling him what hole to put whatever he's selling in).

      I'd much rather have to ignore 40 flyers (by turning my eyes to another direction) than deal with even a couple salesman every day.

      --
      Speak before you think
    3. Re:Easier solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "jenna jameson raped by a horse!!!!!!!"

      Can you forward this e-mail to me?

    4. Re:Easier solution by MacTheGIF · · Score: 1
      Quote from the "I'm allright jack" department ...

      Just ignore it all. Everyone is making such a big deal of spam.

      If 50% of email is spam (and I think that is a conservative estimate) then every ISP and business is spending twice as much on mail server capacity than it really needs.

      Ignore it? The ISP that I work for is paying many thousands of pounds extra for it. BTW they pass that cost onto you dear friends.

    5. Re:Easier solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the same breath as the announcement of bandwidth capping from ISPs? Suddenly that SPAM bandwidth is costing you money, or eating into your allowance for downloads, streams(heh) and sharing. 86% of my email is SPAM, and that amounts to a hideous 2MB a day. As email moves more onto mobile devices (I use my PDA and IrDA mobile for checking email on the move too), the costs of SPAM will increase, not decrease.

    6. Re:Easier solution by bakes · · Score: 1

      Sure, yeah, that's what I do too. I just ignore it all. Most gets caught by Mozillas filters, some gets through, I just delete it.

      But when this sort of stuff shows up in my 8-year-old daughters mailbox, I can't 'just ignore it' any more.

      Grow a brain. Just because it's not a 'big deal' for you doesn't mean it's not a big deal to other people.

      --
      Ho! Haha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! Ha! Thrust!
    7. Re:Easier solution by OaXlin · · Score: 0

      I would rather have spam then flyers. Spam is ethereal, doesn't hurt the environment as drastically as one flyer does.

      Granted they both suck...

      But in my opinion, anyone sticking flyers on vehicles and the like should be fined for littering.

      Clicking delete is a lot easier then bending over to pick up a piece of paper that used to be a flyer that is now just litter.

      --
      sig. "I didn't do it."
  11. Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by The+Fink · · Score: 4, Informative
    This is the same Luddite who, just today, decided that chatrooms should be all but banned. Remember: this is the same Luddite who not so long ago, in effect decided that broadband was a waste of time.


    Yes, the anti-spam bill is a good step, but he's still a Luddite.

    1. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by SatanicPuppy · · Score: 1

      Even a stopped watch can be right once a day. Unless it's a digital watch, but since he's a luddite, it doesn't seem too likely.

      --
      ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
    2. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by Mr_Escher · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with this.

      Firstly I believe this legislation is an EXCELLENT idea, HOWEVER, the attrocities including expensive websites and his blatant disregard for broadband in Australia are unforgivable.

      I appreciate what he is doing here, but he's basically clueless with regards to technology.

      One of his advisors (or his nephew etc. for all I know) need a pat on the back. He, on the otherhand, should be ousted before he does more damage.

      My AU$0.02

    3. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by darkov · · Score: 1

      An analog watch would be right twice a day. Unless it's a 24-hour watch, which are pretty rare.

    4. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by toddhunter · · Score: 1

      Of course he is still a 'Luddite'. Any politician is going to be the same. The important thing is that he has good people around him that know what they are talking about, and that he listens to them. From the sounds of this bill, this has been the case on this occasion at least

    5. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by Mr_Escher · · Score: 1

      The problem with this is it is an exception rather than the rule with Alston.

      As he's probably the most ignorant and facist communications minster I can remember us ever having anyway.

    6. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by toddhunter · · Score: 1

      Anyway, he's more of a 'tool' in my eyes. But I agree with his views on the ABC. Just listen to triple J in the morning if you want an example of biased reporting. The fact that I agree with their views 99% of the time doesn't matter. It makes me cringe to hear their constant anti-america/anti-howard/anti-business attacks.

    7. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Absolutely. It's incredible what Triple-J get away with in the name of 'balanced reporting' and 'showing the other side'.

    8. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by cranos · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry when did it become a bad thing for an AUSTRALIAN radio station to be Anti-AMERICAN? I have a great deal of trouble working out why this is a problem. If it was directed solely at the liberal party, and it isn't, then I could see the problem.

    9. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by The+OPTiCIAN · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with hist stance on broadband, and I think you've misrepresented it. What he said was that for the public to fund broadband to every home was stupid. And it is. If people want broadband they should do what I have to do, and hand over the cash for it.

      The government has no role making taxpayers fork out so other people can get broadband, particularly when a large percentage of the population doesn't have a computer and fewer still have need of broadband.

      The ALP would never have implemented that policy.

      In the same way, I don't think the Australian government has any role in "first home-buyers grants" or other incentives that skew the market for no (publicly) good reason.

      --


      Believe with me, my saplings.
    10. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well... the 'other side' is Bush and Howard, and if they showed them, the sight would pretty much convince you that they're wrong anyway...

    11. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by CitizenJohnJohn · · Score: 1

      One of the vital tasks of the ABC is to provide balance. Since several of our major newspapers are owned by an American and the commercial TV stations are full of American shows rippled with ads from American companies, the ABC would be failing desperately in its duty if it were anything BUT anti-American.

      Note for non-Australians: ABC = Australia's government-owned national broadcaster.

    12. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by Marlor · · Score: 1

      I agree with hist[sic] stance on broadband, and I think you've misrepresented it. What he said was that for the public to fund broadband to every home was stupid. And it is. If people want broadband they should do what I have to do, and hand over the cash for it.

      No, what Senator Alston said was that it was wrong for the government to subsidise the rollout of cable to every home in Australia. The ALP's policy statement (part of Knowledge Nation) said that this should be a goal to be achieved before 2006.

      This doesn't mean that all homes have free government-supplied broadband. What it *does* mean is that all homes have the opportunity to get cable broadband if they wish to do so.

      While it might be hard for those of you living in the major cities to believe, many of us living in regional areas currently do not have access to any form of broadband (other than over-priced, high-latency satellite). The ALP's policy was to make cable broadband available to *all* Australians, not just those that are forunate enough to live in one of the capitals.

      I have been told by Telstra and other ISPs that xDSL or cable are not options for me in the near future, despite living on the edge a major regional population centre. I have resorted to ordering overpriced 128K ISDN. It's not as good as cable or DSL - but standard 56K modem connections are getting outdated fast.

      So, this is not about "skewing the market", it is about allowing everyone with *access* to the market. What Alston said was there was no need for people to have access to this market because it was only used for deranged perverts who download pornography and play violent games (I'm paraphrasing there, but that was the gist of his argument).

      Personally, I'm tired of waiting for telecommunications in regional areas to regain the reasonable level of service we had 10 years ago. It takes over a week to get a broken phone line fixed here, so I'm not holding my breath for decent broadband access.

      The divide between telecommunications services in the major cities and regional areas is quickly widening, and Richard Alston isn't improving matters one bit.

    13. Re:Spam bill good, but overall still a Luddite by The+OPTiCIAN · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the respectful correction :) I'm still not entirely sold one subsidising the country so that it can have the benefits of the city - because if it's that expensive then it's that expensive. Nevertheless, I had a skewed understanding of the situation you've explained.

      --


      Believe with me, my saplings.
  12. The man is still an idiot by Aussie · · Score: 2, Informative

    On Microsoft closing chat rooms:

    Senator Alston said other firms would have social obligations and legal concerns prompting them to take similar action.

    Article

    He thinks MS did this for the public good.

    1. Re:The man is still an idiot by ShayUK · · Score: 1

      One piece of legislation doesn't forgive Alston for all the rest of his stupidity. The guy is still causing major troubles across the rest of his Communications portfolio.

      Chalk this up to a staffer who knows what they're talking about in this specific context. The man himself is clearly still living in a dream world...

    2. Re:The man is still an idiot by darkov · · Score: 4, Funny

      Yes, pedophiles are everywhere, preying on your children. Shutting down chatrooms isn't enough. As long as we have any sort of communication, your children are unsafe. Disconnect the phone and your network connection. Board up the windows, because pedophiles walk around the suburbs looking for victims. Don't let your children go to school, because teachers are often pedophiles. Best to lock them in a cupboard, because the man who comes to fix your sink might be a pedophile. But they're still not safe. Pedophiles can still "groom" your children while you're not watching, so best to poke out their eyes and ears, that way pedophiles can't talk them into doing things they don't want to do.

    3. Re:The man is still an idiot by blibbleblobble · · Score: 1

      "On Microsoft closing chat rooms:"

      http://theregister.co.uk/content/6/33032.html

      "MSN was always a blatant example of Microsoft anti-competitive actions. It was launched because Bill Gates came to realise that AOL was a bigger force on the Net than Microsoft, and he "invested" heavily in the Microsoft Network.

      Say what they like, it was an attempt to crush AOL. It was a successful attempt, insofar as it crushed other major online service providers - who remembers Prodigy, or The Source? - but AOL survived."

    4. Re:The man is still an idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yep, people with foot fetishes are everywhere.

  13. It won't make a lot of difference by dbIII · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Web cacheing is apparently illegal in Australia too is you take one of the laws to it's logical conclusion. That deparment doesn't have a good history in drafting legislation (or anything really).

    I don't think we'll see anything slow down until the first procecution.

    Maybe we'll all have to put NO JUNK MAIL on our web pages to show we've put some effort into informing the miscreants.

    It goes to show however, that once an IT issue directly annoys a minister it gets results. The more IT issues become mainstream the better.

    1. Re:It won't make a lot of difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe we'll all have to put NO JUNK MAIL on our web pages to show we've put some effort into informing the miscreants.

      No, our pages with pictures of our cats will have to say:

      By accessing this web page("The Page"), the reader ("You") agrees to not use any email adress harvested either automatically or by hand in any mass marketing campaign wherein the recipient has no pre-existing relationship with the sender.

      DISCLAIMER OF WARRANTY: THE PAGE AND ITS OWNERS, OPERATORS, INTERNET SERVICE PROVIDER, AND CONTRIBUTORS PROVIDE THIS PAGE AS IS AND WITH NO WARRANTY, EVEN AN IMPLIED WARRANTY OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR USE.

      Kitty Picture 3:

      [Kitty Picture]

      [Back][Next][Home]

    2. Re:It won't make a lot of difference by Pseudonym · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Web cacheing is apparently illegal in Australia too is you take one of the laws to it's logical conclusion.

      If you meant proxying, not any more. This was fixed in the Copyright Amendment (Digital Agenda) Act, aka the "Australian DMCA". In the US, this was also fixed in the DMCA. No, the DMCA isn't all bad...

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    3. Re:It won't make a lot of difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Web cacheing is apparently illegal in Australia


      er, no it apparently isn't. If you are serious about these issues and problems you should know about the debate between ISP and the independent review board (hired by the govt) reviewing these and related issues *right now*? Submissions are still (possibly) open if you have some input. The govt, in my view, in this current debate is doing a *lot* better then they have in the past (IMHO).

      The indep. review board, athough not very adept at IT related issues (they are mostly lawyers & related professions), from what I can see are trying to do a good job and are willing to listen to people who know more about IT then they do.
  14. Re:It's not that hard to redeem yourself... by 00420 · · Score: 1

    That is not redemption, that is buying a vote with an issue.

    I'd rather someone buy my vote with an issue than with money.

  15. what about open relays? by piscoBandito · · Score: 2, Insightful
    (1) For the purposes of this Act, a person does not send an electronic message, or cause an electronic message to be sent, merely because the person supplies a carriage service that enables the message to be sent.

    So.. does this mean that people running and/or responsible for open-relays aren't responsible for the traffic that goes through them?

  16. Re:Sad that something similar won't work in the US by stephens_domain · · Score: 1

    That's Flipino lawyers, and I don't see the relevance. Everything's about race these days.

    --

    ..
  17. Re:It's not that hard to redeem yourself... by Sevn · · Score: 1

    Yup. And it happens all the time. Single selfish issues that a person has will make them pick one candidate over another. Something as universally hated as spam will make people suddenly like you when you vote to stomp it out.

    --
    For every annoying gentoo user, are three even more annoying anti-gentoo crybabies. Take Yosh from #Gimp for example.
  18. Wow. Bad mental image. by cliffy2000 · · Score: 3, Funny

    "Spam And Alston - From Luddite To Pin-Up?"
    Am I the only one picturing an older man in an undershirt, suspenders and short pants as a centerfold? (Not to mention a dozen broken monitors behind him.)

    1. Re:Wow. Bad mental image. by TrancePhreak · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are the only one. I suggest you seek help immediately.

      --

      -]Phreak Out[-
  19. Re:It's not that hard to redeem yourself... by stephens_domain · · Score: 1

    I want to be bought buy a platform, not by an issue.

    --

    ..
  20. Pinup? by ezthrust · · Score: 2, Funny

    I don't know about you, but this isn't my idea of a great pin-up.. but to each their own I guess.

    1. Re:Pinup? by kgbspy · · Score: 2, Funny

      According to his home page, he enjoys pumping iron. Does that change your mind?

      --
      ~
      ~
      ~
      -- INSERT --
  21. Address Harvesting by nfras · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's interesting to note that selling address harvesting software will become illegal, and that selling email lists harvested by software will also become illegal. It will also be illegal to use the list even if you bought it overseas. The problem lies in proving that the list was obtained in this way.

    --
    You call me a pedant? I prefer the term "correct"
  22. Re:It's not that hard to redeem yourself... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Fine, so you can be bought too, only your price is higher.

  23. Re:It's not that hard to redeem yourself... by 00420 · · Score: 1

    I want to be bought buy a platform, not by an issue.

    Oh, good point.
    I don't vote anyways, so I really don't know what I'm talking about.

    I would, however, vote for a presidential canidate if they had a solid plan to use alternate energy sources.

  24. Re:The Internet is dangerous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not offtopic.
    This is a referrence to said Ludite.
    For moderators in the UK be advised the link does not advocate the P word.

  25. Alston still is, and always will be, a fuckwit. by The+Fanta+Menace · · Score: 2, Informative

    His latest statement is here, where he claims that after Microsoft's closure of its chatrooms, more scrutiny will be placed on those of other ISPs

    Microsoft's chat service closure was less to do with protecting children than it was a chance to start strangling their IM competition. The child protection thing was just pulling the wool over the public's eyes.

    Alston would like nothing more than to have every unmoderated chat service shut down.

    --
    -- Even if a god did exist, why the fsck should I worship it?
    1. Re:Alston still is, and always will be, a fuckwit. by The+Fink · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Alston would like nothing more than to have every unmoderated chat service shut down.
      Reality is, I think he'd like the Internet shut down, or at least cut off from Australians.

      Oh, and apparently EFA are there purely to support the "immoral" industries... go figure.

  26. Not such a blessing... by gnoshi · · Score: 5, Informative

    As another has pointed out, there are a number of exemptions:
    Eg. Schedule 1, Object, Note 2:
    Designated commercial electronic messages are exempt from section 16 (unsolicited commercial electronic messages must not be sent) and section 18 (commercial electronic messages must contain a functional unsubscribe facility).

    Those 'designated commercial electronic messages' include:
    Government bodies, political parties, religious organisations and charities
    (a) the sending of the message is authorised by any of the following bodies:
    (i) a government body;
    (ii) a registered political party;
    (iii) a religious organisation;
    (iv) a charity or charitable institution; and
    (b) the message relates to goods or services; and
    (c) the body is the supplier, or prospective supplier, of the goods or services concerned.
    Educational institutions
    (a) the sending of the message is authorised by an educational institution; and
    (b) either or both of the following subparagraphs applies:
    (i) the relevant electronic accountholder is, or has been, enrolled as a student in that institution;
    (ii) a member or former member of the household of the relevant electronic accountholder is, or has been, enrolled as a student in that institution; and
    (c) the message relates to goods or services; and
    (d) the institution is the supplier, or prospective supplier, of the goods or services concerned
    Factual information
    (a) the message consists of no more than factual information (with or without directlyrelated comment) and any or all of the following additional information:
    (i) the name, logo and contact details of the individual or organisation who authorised the sending of the message;
    (ii) the name and contact details of the author;
    (iii) if the author is an employee--the name, logo and contact details of the author's employer;
    (iv) if the author is a partner in a partnership--the name, logo and contact details of the partnership;
    (v) if the author is a director or officer of an organisation--the name, logo and contact details of the organisation;
    (vi) if the message is sponsored--the name, logo and contact details of the sponsor;
    (vii) information required to be included by section 17;
    (viii) information that would have been required to be included by section 18 if that section had applied to the message; and
    (b) assuming that none of that additional information had been included in the message, the message would not have been a commercial electronic message; and
    (c) the message complies with such other condition or conditions (if any) as are specified in the regulations.


    After all that, I don't really see how it will help one bit. To my interpretation (wrong though it may be) we can still get spam but we have to know who it is coming from, and if it is from a business (for profit) it may not be more than a business card. On the other hand, from a govt body, political party, religious crazies (or otherwise), and charities, you den't even need to be able to unsubscribe. It must relate to goods or services (uh huh... big protection there. The catalogues in my mailbox do that too) and they must be the prospective supplier. That's what they are hoping, anyway.

    Also, a uni, or school, may cheerfully spam all their students. What fun.

    All seems to be a waste of time to me.
    As for Alston... if anyone sees him, punch him in the face for me, or somesuch.

  27. His $4 million website. by sr180 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For those that dont remember, Richard Alston is the Communications Minister that spent $4 million on a website. I dont car how many good deeds he does, he is still the worlds worst luddite. References for those who dont remember: $4 million website or $4 million website And he couldnt even spend that money on the local economy. His view of technology is that it has to be done with the big multi-national companies, local ones dont even get a look in (see the whirlpool link). Obviously the companies prefered are the ones that are likely to hire him as a consultant either now or later on.

    --
    In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
    1. Re:His $4 million website. by mister_tim · · Score: 1

      If a luddite is someone who is anti-technology, named after people who actually broke machinery, how can someone who spends large amounts of money on technology be a ludite.

      Not to defend it, but a $4 million (about USD2.6 million) web site represents a big investment in a form of technology and would seem to infer, therefore, that he is the opposite of a luddite, whatver that is called.

    2. Re:His $4 million website. by sr180 · · Score: 1

      Coz it was no investment. He was a luddite that got ripped off.

      --
      In Soviet Russia the insensitive clod is YOU!
    3. Re:His $4 million website. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the day a website like that is worth 4m is the day I suddenly become very very rich :)

  28. Not an aide that wrote it by mister_tim · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, as he is a senior Minister in the Australian government, he would have had the Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts write the bill. And after they did the initial drafting, it would have gone to the Attorney General's Dept for conversion into legalese, i.e. to keep the language tight and to make sure it only allows/disallows the things that it is intended to.

    Regardless, Alston would still have had the final say and would have checked off on every aspect of the bill before it went to Parliament.

    It's not like America here - there aren't a great number of aides (political staff) and they don't generally write bills - most of that kind of work is done by public servants.

    1. Re:Not an aide that wrote it by kgbspy · · Score: 2, Informative

      So essentially he's gone from a Complete And Utter Luddite to a Moderate But Still Dangerous Luddite.

      Let's face it - the man's a Collingwood supporter. You can't get much closer to the bottom of the evolutionary ladder than that.

      --
      ~
      ~
      ~
      -- INSERT --
    2. Re:Not an aide that wrote it by cranos · · Score: 1

      Hate to tell you this but the current government has decided that it likes the American style "aides" and has been using them for the last eight years. Apparantly they provide a great way to invoke plausible deniability as in "my aides never told me and all my information comes from my aides".

    3. Re:Not an aide that wrote it by cranos · · Score: 1

      Okay now he is really on my hate list, any person who could support Collingwood and Eddie "Mr TV" Maguire has serious issues.

    4. Re:Not an aide that wrote it by Tuross · · Score: 1

      It's not like America here - there aren't a great number of aides (political staff) and they don't generally write bills - most of that kind of work is done by public servants.

      Pube, Aide, whatever. The real frightening thing is that the portfolio he has control over is such a broad one that what you end up with is the arts students writing the IT policy. No offense to arts students, but come on... if anyone remembers their university days you know that these are the opposite ends of the spectrum with generally an intense loathing of one another. I met one of those directly responsible for the censorship laws - they admitted they didn't even bother researching the subject, all that mattered was getting the papers off their desk. It took all the self-control I had to avoid punching them in face a few times.

      BTW Alston did something else pretty cool during the past fortnight, but buggered if I can remember what it was right now. But yeah, regardless he's still a Luddite.

      --
      Matt
      1. Read Slashdot
      2. ???
      3. Profit
    5. Re:Not an aide that wrote it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My favourite line from a charity show phone-in recently... "You are probably aware that the telephone is an incredibly powerful tool. But then so is Eddie McGuire."

    6. Re:Not an aide that wrote it by mister_tim · · Score: 1

      They do like aides, political staff or advisors they call them - but regardless, aides don't write legislation. And they still go to the public service for most of their policy advice.

  29. Re:It's not that hard to redeem yourself... by tokaok · · Score: 1

    wow you used buy instead of by, great pun, i commend u, you made me chuckle.

  30. antispam by tigre222 · · Score: 1

    Perhaps here is a nice summary

    --
    Where ever I go, there I am
  31. Defending SPAM and Condemning Detractors by tjstork · · Score: 2, Insightful


    I'm looking for ways to get hits on my site, and, that $50 for 300,000 targetted opt-in emails is looking better all the time.

    All this legislation does is make it more expensive for spammers, not less likely. Right now, because email is so cheap, eventually spammers will succumb under their own weight because they can't make a profit in an industry where price competition exists.

    But now, with opt in mailing lists, you've created a thing of value for spammers to own, and to sell or rent.

    Way to go spam legisltatures. You've just turned a nuisance into the next mega industry!

    --
    This is my sig.
    1. Re:Defending SPAM and Condemning Detractors by yerricde · · Score: 1

      To get hits on your site legitimately, participate in electronic discussion boards such as Slashdot, and link your sig to your site.

      --
      Will I retire or break 10K?
    2. Re:Defending SPAM and Condemning Detractors by TCQuad · · Score: 1

      To get hits on your site legitimately, participate in electronic discussion boards such as Slashdot, and link your sig to your site.

      Getting his server slashdotted might not be the best way to bring in new business, though...

  32. My only gripe by StewedSquirrel · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I will admit I only read the "Simplified Outline", but from what I saw there, my only grip with this bill is this:

    "Address-harvesting software must not be supplied,
    acquired or used."

    I have no problem banning the USAGE of harvested lists. But banning the software?? hmmmm it reeks of censorship to me. Personally, I'd rather be free and spammed than to be sliding down slippery slopes that are completely spam-free.

    But maybe that's why I hang out here instead of the local pub.

    Stewey

    --
    There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
    1. Re:My only gripe by StewedSquirrel · · Score: 1

      Minor typo: should read

      "my only gripe with this bill is this:"

      --
      There are 10 kinds of people in the world. Those who understand binary and those who don't.
    2. Re:My only gripe by gnoshi · · Score: 1

      If that is your gripe, how did you feel about the content laws for things being hosted in Australia (being managed by the ABA).
      Not to mention Using internet for offensive and menacing purposes to be outlawed (and EFA's response).

      It will take a lot more than this (and even this I am not convinced is a + rather than a -) to make me have any respect for Alston and his cronies.

    3. Re:My only gripe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      However much you dislike this a large section of the SPAM industry makes its money selling this sort of software rather than actually spamming. Without this provision they would be untouchable. With luck its about to become riskier and more expensive for the small fish and less profitable for the professionals.

  33. Re:Address Harvesting? Address Looting perhaps? by B.D.Mills · · Score: 1

    Harvesting? HARVESTING? I hate that term because it implies that the addresses are the spammers' crops and they are simply collecting their own property.

    In reality, the spammers are stealing the addresses. So why not use a term that is closer to the mark, such as "address looting", "address pillaging" or "address plundering".

    Dictionary.com says:
    Loot:
    1. Valuables pillaged in time of war; spoils.
    2. Stolen goods.
    3. Informal. Goods illicitly obtained, as by bribery.
    4. Informal. Things of value, such as gifts, received on one occasion.
    5. Slang. Money.

    Pillage:
    1. v. tr. To rob of goods by force, especially in time of war; plunder.
    2. v. tr. To take as spoils.
    3. v. intr. To take spoils by force.
    4. n. The act of pillaging.
    5. n. Something pillaged; spoils.

    Plunder:
    1. v. tr. To rob of goods by force, especially in time of war; pillage: plunder a village.
    2. v. tr. To seize wrongfully or by force; steal: plundered the supplies.
    3. v. intr. To take booty; rob.
    4. n. The act or practice of plundering.
    5. n. Property stolen by fraud or force; booty.

    --

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
  34. Big F*cking Loophole by nfras · · Score: 3, Insightful

    You are also exempt if:
    the message relates to goods or services; and
    (c) the body is the supplier, or prospective
    supplier, of the goods or services concerned.

    Holy Shit. That means that I have the right to send you email if I have something that I want to sell you, or think I might want to sell you. I think I might want to sell a penis enlarger. I will now email these 2 million people to see if they would be interested. Hey, the law lets me do it as long as I let you unsubscribe and say who I am.

    --
    You call me a pedant? I prefer the term "correct"
    1. Re:Big F*cking Loophole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Holy Shit. That means that I have the right to send you email if I have something that I want to sell you...


      I'm calling you out on your FUD, troll. Try reading the the entire article *forwards* OR try reading the line above what you have quoted. The exception you have quoted is incomplete.
  35. I'm Australian... by Xenex · · Score: 4, Informative
    So what's the story -- can you go from Luddite to pin-up in one step?
    I'm an Australian, and let me assure you - he can't.

    A man that thinks broadband is just for games, introduced unworkable Internet censorship and thinks Telstra is doing a good enough job to become 100 percent public is still a Luddite.
    1. Re:I'm Australian... by brindafella · · Score: 1

      I'm an Aussie, too.

      Senator Alston may not be the greatest **computer** intellectual, but let's be fair. Who writes this stuff? He does not invent policy or Bill text himself.

      Someone in these places is doing it:
      - Department of Communications, IT and the Arts http://www.dcita.gov.au (e.g. Networking the Nation http://www.dcita.gov.au/Article/0,,0_1-2_3-3_461-4 _106337,00.html)
      - National Office for the Information Economy http://www.noie.gov.au/
      - Treasury's e-commerce office http://www.ecommerce.treasury.gov.au/
      - somewhere else in the Australian Federal Government http://www.fed.gov.au

      Yet, the semi-Westminster form of Government we operate under in Australia both appluads and blames the Minister responsible. Sen. Richard Alston

      --
      Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
  36. Reservations regarding this bill by lpontiac · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Lots of organisations are still digesting this bill, and are yet to issue a response. But groups may well come out swinging against:

    • The banning of "email harvesting software." There's a risk of trouble for people legitimately scanning websites for email addresses, for purposes such as research, and maintenance of their own sites.
    • Only covering the sale of goods and services. This would seem to exempt charities, religious organisations, lobbying groups, survey groups and lots of other people who manage to annoy without selling anything.
    • The sections of the bill relating to searches without a warrant.

    It's a step in the right direction, but this bill is far from perfect.

    1. Re:Reservations regarding this bill by wouterke · · Score: 1

      The banning of "email harvesting software." There's a risk of trouble for people legitimately scanning websites for email addresses, for purposes such as research, and maintenance of their own sites.

      Uh. What kind of 'research' exactly do you have in mind? The only research I can think of that would require people to have lots of email addresses would be one of 'how do I improve my spamm^H^H^H^H^Hdirect marketing practices'. I don't think I want those.
    2. Re:Reservations regarding this bill by lpontiac · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Uh. What kind of 'research' exactly do you have in mind? The only research I can think of that would require people to have lots of email addresses would be one of 'how do I improve my spamm^H^H^H^H^Hdirect marketing practices'. I don't think I want those.

      Stolen blatantly from a fellow calling himself Stilgherrian on a mailing list: Linguistic research into what people choose as usernames. What's more popular, generic 'sales@' addresses, or 'contact sales manager Sarah Jones at sarah@'? What's the proportion of popular Chinese names to popular Australian names? etc...

      I'd find that pretty boring too, but I imagine some people would be interested, and since there's no need to ban harvesting tools (since we can just get people when they actually spam), I think it's best left alone.

      There's also the 'code is speech' and 'ban crimes not tools that can commit them' angles to consider.

    3. Re:Reservations regarding this bill by amRadioHed · · Score: 1
      Of course no one likes spam harvesters, but I have to agree with the parent. I don't like the idea of making something like:
      egrep -o '\w+@\w*\.\w*'
      illegal. That is no better than the whole DeCSS situation.
      --
      We hope your rules and wisdom choke you / Now we are one in everlasting peace
  37. Interesting clause by geekwench · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Looking through the information on what, exactly, implies "consent", I ran across this:

    • (1)For the purposes of this Act, the consent of the relevant electronic account-holder may not be inferred from the mere fact that the relevant electronic address has been published.

    • Exception--conspicuous publication
      (2)However, if:
      (a)a particular electronic address enables the public, or a section of the public, to send electronic messages to:
      (i) a particular employee; or
      (ii) a particular director or officer of an organisation; or
      (iii) a particular partner in a partnership; or
      (iv) a particular holder of a statutory or other office; or
      (v) a particular self-employed individual; or
      (vi) an individual from time to time holding, occupying or performing the duties of, a particular office or position within the operations of an organisation; or
      (vii) an individual, or a group of individuals, from time to time performing a particular function, or fulfilling a particular role, within the operations of an organisation; and
      (b) the electronic address has been conspicuously published; and
      (c) it would be reasonable to assume that the publication occurred with the agreement of:
      (i) if subparagraph (a)(i), (ii), (iii), (iv) or (v) applies--the employee, director, officer, partner, office-holder or self-employed individual concerned; or
      (ii) if subparagraph (a)(vi) or (vii) applies--the organisation concerned; and
      (d) the publication is not accompanied by:
      (i) a statement to the effect that the relevant electronic account-holder does not want to receive unsolicited commercial electronic messages at that electronic address (emphasis mine); or
      (ii) a statement to similar effect; the relevant electronic account-holder is taken, for the purposes of this Act, to have consented to the sending of commercial electronic messages to that address, so long as the messages are relevant to:
      (e) if subparagraph (a)(i), (ii), (iii), (iv) or (v) applies--the work-related business, functions or duties of the employee, director, officer, partner, office-holder or self-employed individual concerned; or
      (f) if subparagraph (a)(vi) applies--the office or position concerned; or
      (g) if subparagraph (a)(vii) applies--the function or role concerned.

    So, in other words, if I don't put a big notice on my e-commerce website saying "Don't even think about spamming these contact e-mails," I can expect to have to muck out the mailbox three times a day, as usual. Oh, wait; per the law, it will all be relevant to my business, and therefore legitimate.

    Sorry, buddy. Spam is spam, no matter how it's sliced.

    --
    Doing my level best to piss off the religious right wing...
    1. Re:Interesting clause by charvolant · · Score: 1
      So, in other words, if I don't put a big notice on my e-commerce website saying "Don't even think about spamming these contact e-mails," I can expect to have to muck out the mailbox three times a day, as usual. Oh, wait; per the law, it will all be relevant to my business, and therefore legitimate.

      Sure. Provided that all of those messages are relevant to your e-commerce site. What do you supply that requires such a big penis?

      Note the "the relevant electronic account-holder is taken, for the purposes of this Act, to have consented to the sending of commercial electronic messages to that address, so long as the messages are relevant to:" (my emphasis)

      It's also worth noting that this raises the economic bar to an intreresting height. You can't just scrape web pages for addresses, you also have to verify that there isn't a "no junk mail" sign on the page and determine what kind of messages you can legitimately send to that address. At the moment, that will require an expensive human. Hmmm. Maybe RDF and the semantic web aren't such a good idea, after all.

      Practically, this clause allows someone with a legitimate product or service to sell that is relevant to a company to come calling. This just might apply to InkJet refills, but I don't think it applies to most spam.

  38. please read this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  39. Bayesian Filters, Thanks Paul Graham by Skeme · · Score: 1

    With bayesian filters, more junk mail implies more accurate filtering. If the amount of junk e-mail is reduced by legislation, that could have the side effect of making bayesian filters less accurate and thus getting MORE spam.

  40. I will never call this a pinup by spoco2 · · Score: 1
    "can you go from Luddite to pin-up in one step?"

    I will never call this man a pinup.... NEVER do you hear me?!

    1. Re:I will never call this a pinup by thirdrock · · Score: 1

      I will never call this man a pinup.... NEVER do you hear me?!

      Must have been a typo. I think what the /. ed's meant to say was "Can you go from a Luddite to a pimp in one step?"

      --
      >>
      I am the director, and this is my movie ...
  41. Porn profits? Alston said "No thanks." by quinkin · · Score: 2, Interesting
    You forgot that he is also the humourless intellectual pygmy who legislated that no porn can be hosted from australia - hence other countried get the profits...

    This doesn't actually change anything for the public except to ensure that absolutely all of the revenue generated by these sites is directed offshore... nice one...

    Q.

    --
    Insert Signature Here
  42. Could make google.com.au Illegal! by bigsteve@dstc · · Score: 3, Interesting
    My initial reading of the draft legislation is that it could make web search engines illegal. For example, I can use google.com.au to search for "@student.uq.ed.au", and then use these to create a list for spamming students at the University of Queensland. Under paragraph 20.1.a, this would make Google a provider of address harvesting software.

    While 20.2 says the following, I don't think it helps:

    20.1 does not apply if the supplier had no reason to suspect that the customer, or another person, intended to use the address-harvesting software or the harvested-address list, as the case may be, in connection with sending commercial electronic messages in contravention of section 16.

    The mere fact my search request contained a DNS name and an '@' character could be construed as grounds to suspect that I might use the results for spamming.

    1. Re:Could make google.com.au Illegal! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not Just e-mail, any electronic address, including TCP/IP.

      From the summary of the act:

      address-harvesting software means software that is specifically designed or marketed for use for:
      1. searching the Internet for electronic addresses; and
      2. collecting, compiling, capturing or otherwise harvesting those electronic addresses.

      So perhaps port scanners are illegal too.
      And SNMP devices. Goodbye Cisco!

      The above is FUD.

    2. Re:Could make google.com.au Illegal! by bigsteve@dstc · · Score: 1
      Not Just e-mail, any electronic address, including TCP/IP.

      You may be correct. Certainly the act does not say what an "electronic addresses" is, and that is a bad thing, IMO.

      If your software only harvests addresses that are not email addresses, this would probably fall under the section 20.2 exclusion on the basis that the purpose of harvesting is not related to sending unsolicitted commercial email. However, I don't know if this "common sense" reasoning would stand in a court of law!

  43. When the average Aussie broadband is 3Gb/month... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    .. is that day I stop calling Alston a luddite.

    Sigh. Just because an idiot does one smart thing doesn't mean he's not an idiot anymore.
    This luddite:
    * spent AU$4 million website
    * thinks broadband is for gambling and pr0n
    * believes Telstra is doing a good job with its 3Gb/month cap.

    The only way to convince me that he's no longer a luddite is when the average Aussie broadband is more than a 3Gb/month cap.

  44. Still a complete dropkick by wrmrxxx · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's hard to imagine that he personally understands the issues involved. It seems more likely that he's been given advice, and not gotten involved or objected because it's all gone way over his head.

    It's when he makes off the cuff comments that his general cluelessness about IT is revealed - he didn't earn the title of "Biggest Luddite in the World" for nothing. Aside from the comments on closing chatrooms that several other posters have mentioned, he's also recently been taken to task over comments he made in the Senate about Electronic Frontiers Australia. There was a story in the Register only a few days ago. EFA were permitted to publish a reply in the parliamentary records, objecting to his description of them as "spokespeople of the porn industry".

  45. Religious spam? by Rob+Simpson · · Score: 1
    bertsimpson,The answer to your prayers
    Highten S/p/i/r/t/u/a/l satisfaction, 1 0 0% Safe hgyu5767hgh
    IMMEDIATE ACTION REQ'D: download new soul patch
    bertsimpson,Where you go when you die
    Amazing small digital bible!
    bertsimpson,It doesn't^H^H^H get better than this

  46. Maybe Alston has relative studying in California? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Doesn't California have an anti-SPAM law
    with teeth already? I'd bet Australia is
    just following such leads, not innovating

    OT, but IMO:

    The governing liberal party (of which
    I understand Alston is a member) may
    be under some pressure in the next
    Australian federal election.

    The Anti-SPAM bill may be part of the
    government's attempt to lay the ground-
    work for its re-election.

    I hope Aussies (and others) -won't-
    forget:

    - refugee children still (after years) in
    detention, in remote parts of Australia
    (our hot counterpart of USSR's Siberia)

    In the gov'ts "Children Overboard" spin-
    doctored telling of the refugees arrival,
    the refugees held children overboard for
    a few moments...

    In reality, that same gov't has held
    those same children - & a lot more -
    in psychologically dangerous detention
    centers... at great cost (in $$$'s &
    reputation) to Australians & our image.

    ...while New Zealand saved money by
    allowing -its- refugee families out
    in the community, to earn their own
    livings, in peace, without all the
    emotional & physical scarring

    - Australia sheepishly went into Iraq,
    by coincidence, just before talks on
    a free trade agreement with USA began

    (No agreement has yet been won by this
    rush to war, however... Australia has
    positioned itself as a puppy that comes
    back even after being kicked... again &
    again...)

    (Singapore had not need to commit any
    troops, but has their free-trade already)

  47. Political Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It's worth noting that a lot of the "world's greatest luddite" stuff that's flinged at Richard Alston is just BS made up by his political opponents.

    For example, he's not against broadband, he just spoke out against a bad plan for broadband rollout that the opposition came up with, and rightly so.

    Don't believe everything you read by or about politicians.

    1. Re:Political Bias by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      what he actually said was based on the experience of South Korea (highest per capita internet use in the world) residential broadband is used predominantly for games and porn. Throw in p2p and he would be pretty close to the truth.

  48. things are never what they seem with Alston by Wil63 · · Score: 1

    Here's the story behind Alston's spam decision and his response to media coverage. http://www.apcmag.com/alstonresponse

  49. Re:Address Harvesting? Address Looting perhaps? by Zocalo · · Score: 1
    Ooh, I like that idea! I think we should go with "pillaging", mainly because that has a word association with "rape", and that simple association with these scum is going to do them no favours at all. It's kind of like the RIAA associating copyright offenders with pirates, only more gramatically correct since all too often their spiders ignore any "robots.txt" file and plough through the html anyway.

    All in favour...

    --
    UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
  50. Privacy Act by StArSkY · · Score: 1

    This bill needs to be taken alongside the context of the privacy act.

    The privacy act means that companies can only use information colelcted for the purpose that it was collected, unless the person who's information is collected agrees for it to be used for other specified and explained purposes.

    The SPAM laws are basically enforcing the opt-out option, and making it easier to prosecute people who abuse the privacy laws (eg companies acquiring harvested lists from overseas organisations who are not subject to our privacy act) and then using the information to spam).

    On its own this bill is toothless, but when combined with the Privacy Act it is a significant weapon.

    In this case I think this bill will actually help.

    --
    lounge around on the blue couch
    1. Re:Privacy Act by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The parent is an excellend comment. In my place of employment (an Australian uni) during the implmentation of the Privacy Act (Dec 2000) I experienced first hand what it actually means and how it affected the inner workings of a workplace. Every single act I did every day was impacted by the Privacy Act, every phone call, talking to students (>100 every day), talking to staff, logging onto computers, even the simple act of picking up a piece of paper (it could have info on it, and if it does then you have a "duty of care" to follow proper procedure), unless you don't value your job of course.

      Pertaining to spam, the Privacy Act 2000 concerns the collection, use and distribution of info about individuals. For example if a spammer got my email address from my website and sent me spam, this (depending the specifics of course, there are *always* specifics) can be seen as:
      1. The spammer has *collected* information about my person without my consent
      2. The spammer has *used* private information about me without my consent
      3. The spammer has *spammed* (now illegal too :-)

      In addition to the substantial fines from the spam act, you, in court have the ability to request that the individual/business be examined and changed so that privacy violations do not happen in the future. If your a big business in Autralian you should *really* take privacy seriously, small changes to everyday working practice, accross an entire org are *big* deals in large businesses, auditing, staff training, policy creation and monitoring can burn some serious amounts of time/money.

      I know for a fact one govt. dept. in particular (Centrelink) which is shit scared of being audited because of the Privacy Act, they don't even let you submit information written in pencil (it can be rubbed out).

      In addition I am awaiting response from verisign in regards to suspected violations of my privacy because of their sitefinder "service". (ie collecting info without my consent and redirecting my emails to their email server without my consent).

  51. him or you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    because teachers are often pedophiles

    with a comment as ridiculous as that who are you to be calling anyone an idiot?

  52. Not a Big F*cking Loophole by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you have misread the definition. Your quote is part of the definition of a designated commercial electronic message, which are messages from the government, charities, educational institutions, etc. These are exempt if they comply with the definition.

    If you were to send a penis enlarger mail, it would be a commercial electronic message. If the mail was unsolicited, you would be breaking the law.

  53. Luddites by pbjones · · Score: 1

    Luddites were a group of social reformers, read your history. Alston is a moron.

    --
    There was an unknown error in the submission.
  54. telemarketing easily avoidable here... by Goonie · · Score: 1

    We already have a national do-not-call list, and it works a treat. The only unsolicited calls I now get are pollsters, and them rarely.

    --

    Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
    --Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
    1. Re:telemarketing easily avoidable here... by charvolant · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I can't speak for anyone else, but telemarketing isn't that much of a bother to me (an Aussie). We get about one call a month, if that. The "No junk mail" sign on the mailbox means that I don't get piles of useless paper in my mailbox; the postie doesn't deliver obvious junk mail and folks delivering advertising by hand respect it.

      Spam I get by the bucketload, even with spamassasin running.

      A lot of the spam comes (apparently) from the US, which is sourly amusing when it's for something where the transportation costs would dwarf the value of what's offered. That is an indication of why spam is such a problem. Telephone and dead tree marketing are self-limiting and necessarily local, since the marketer cops some expenses. I can be spammed by any twit in the world at minimal cost. It does give me a sense of the true horror of what saturation telemarketing must be like, though. And why a do-not-call list would be a good idea where phone marketing is a major annoyance.

      Personally, spam is a bigger problem than any other form of direct marketing. Generalising wildly to the rest of Australia, this would seem to be the sense of the bill.

      The bill itself covers any electronc message to any electronic address, including telephone numbers, with specific exclusions. It also prohibits the harvesting of addresses. It's pretty clearly aimed straight at low-cost, high-volume automated annoyances. If other forms of direct marketing approach the same level of annoyance, they can be dealt with seperately.

    2. Re:telemarketing easily avoidable here... by BrokenHalo · · Score: 1
      the postie doesn't deliver obvious junk mail

      You obviously don't live in Perth then. The Post Office used to sell "Australia Post Mail Only" mailbox stickers once upon a time, but some months ago when I tried to buy one, I was told that they don't sell tham any more.

      When I asked the man if that was because Australia Post is the biggest carrier of junk mail, I was told "I wouldn't deny it".

      I used to get a lot of telemarketing calls, but since I adopted a policy of giving them the runaround (putting them on hold etc.) that seems to have stopped.

      Seems to me that the best way of stopping spam [obviously inflammatory suggestion follows] is to simply unplug the US internet connections to the rest of the world :-)

    3. Re:telemarketing easily avoidable here... by realdpk · · Score: 1

      You live in a very different world than I. There's no way to stop junk mail here, in the states (that I know of). I receive about 3-5 ads in there per day (I receive about 5-8 legitimate letters per month!).

      When I answered my landline I would receive about 2-3 telemarketing calls per day.

      The AU does sound awfully nice. Now if they could get rid of that pesky Internet censorship and monopoly problem... ;-) (winking in case those are already long gone).

  55. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 1

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  56. Big mistake by Dusabre · · Score: 2, Informative

    You didn't understand the clause.

    In simple English

    If the message comes from one of the listed orgs (party, etc) AND concerns goods or services FROM the listed org, then its okay.

    Still, if your church is producing penile extenders, then its exempt.

    1. Re:Big mistake by LX.onesizebigger · · Score: 1

      *runs off and establishes the Church of the Holy Penis Enlargement*

      Seriously, you can provide commercial goods and services if you're a non-commercial organisation? Am I the only one who feels an urge to resort to a little non-violent violence?

      --
      I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
  57. Re:Address Harvesting? Address Looting perhaps? by Alien+Conspiracy · · Score: 1

    Your suggestions are just as perjorative and excessive. They have not 'stolen' anyones email any more than it would be reasonable to refer to breach of copyright as 'theft'. We all know how propagandist that one is.

    Why not just call it 'email address gathering' or 'collecting'?

  58. As per RFC1149... by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    ...and Linux is the only OS to have actually implemented it.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  59. Ayup, fire enough shots... by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    ...and at least one of 'em 'll hit the enemy sooner or later.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  60. A technical problem takes a technical solution. by jurujen · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I think the IT industry needs to recognise that standards like SMTP need overhauling. They were never designed with the insight required to recognise potential mis-uses. The world should not go the way of the USA in attempting to fix all problems by turning society into one bit letigious mass.

    Here is a copy of a letter which i sent to the Australian Government in relation to this matter which was published in the the Australia IT.

    This email is intended for Minister Richard Alston, but is applicable to any persons within the Australian government who are responsible for administering, overseeing, and maintaining Australia's Information Economy.

    Whilst I applaud the Australian Government's strong stance on SPAM email and its recent decision to fast track legislation to prevent it, I am gravely concerned by the nature of this legislation with regard to its stance on list-generating software.

    At face value it may seem as though it is a good idea to prevent people from mining email addresses from the Internet, however upon closer inspection I hope that you will come to see it as I do, shortsighted, dangerous, and detrimental to the Information Economy.

    My concerns arise from a fundamental view of what the Internet is and what it represents. Without a doubt the Internet has become much more than its designers ever envisaged, the current day invocation of Internet is as a medium for the publishing and sharing of information and, perhaps more importantly, it is also a medium for free speech and dissemination of data.

    By moving to restrict the ability to harvest this information, the Australian Government will be unwittingly placing restrictions not on what is published, but rather how it is allowed to be received and distributed. This course of action may have far reaching implications and consequences for the Information Economy which the Australian Government is poorly equipped to understand.

    From a technical perspective the Internet is still in its infancy, its current invocation will not last for ever, and so legislation which effects the flow of information needs to be carefully considered for the implications it may have on the future evolution of the Internet and therefore the Information Economy.

    The Internet is an architecture built on flexible and generic standards, for instance an email address is actually a subset of a much wider standard for representing information called a Universal Resource Locator (URL)* which in itself is derived from a wider and even more generic standard called a Uniform Resource Identifier (URI).

    * Please refer to http://www.w3.org/Addressing/ for more technical details on the URI and URL.

    By attempting to legislate against software which extracts email addresses from web pages or other content on the Internet, the Australian government is potentially legislating against software which harvests any kind of information based the URI/URL standards. Much of the software which performs such data mining activities is used for generating indexes of the Internet for use in search engines.

    Search engine technology, and therefore data mining, is the most critical and heavily used application on the Internet today. Whether it be individual users, small business, corporate entities, or governments, they are all heavily dependent on search engine technology. Without such technology and the freedom to produce new innovative software utilising Internet standards, the Information Economy would surely be doomed.

    What the Australian Government may not be aware of, and what the legislation probably overlooks is the fact that software designed to support the URI/URL standards will often not distinguish between and Email address (i.e. mailto:oof@foo.org) and a conventional HTTP address (i.e. http://foo.org).

    The Australian Government cannot pass legislation which will effectively stifle existing search engine technology and future innovation in that area. Data mining based on existing Internet stand

  61. Summary: they told him to go knot himself... by leonbrooks · · Score: 1

    ...but they did it politely.

    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  62. Good idea. by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  63. References? by leonbrooks · · Score: 1
    --
    Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
  64. Idea! by Flingles · · Score: 1

    Next time any government wants to pass a new bill, post it on slashdot! All the users will poke holes in it and then it can be rewritten. You guys should get paid dammit!

    --
    Karma: -2^0.5 . Mainly due to the imbibing of dihydrogen monoxide
  65. this already happens in the telemarketing industy by DiveX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Per the TCPA (47 USC 227) prerecorded calls may be made by, or on behalf of, non-profit organizations. Since debt-consolidation agencies have to be non-profit there are people that create or run two companies for the purpose of getting around this. Integrated Credit Solutions (Flagship) is engaged in the business of marketing and providing call center support for tax-exempt organizations such as Lighthouse Credit Foundation. Lighthouse Credit Foundation, is the "tax-exempt non-profit organization" in whose "behalf" ICS makes the calls.

    They are located in the very same building, have the same in-house counsel, and are breaking the law by trying to use smoke and mirrors. Each have their hands in the pockets of the other, and it isn't just to take a dollar out. Of course most aren't buying it, including the attorney generals of several states;
    New York http://www.state.ny.us/governor/ltgov/press99/marc h8_02.htm
    Massachusetts http://www.ago.state.ma.us/press_rel/ics.asp?head1 =Press+Releases&section=5
    Florida
    http://myflori dalegal.com/lit_ec.nsf/0/96159EA0F81 DA9E885256A8700650763?OpenDocument
    Missouri
    http ://www.ago.state.mo.us/071201.htm

    --
    Cave, wreck, and deep diver.
  66. Misread that... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny


    Was I the only one who read that as "Spamela Anderson - From Luddite To Pin-Up?"

    I don't think I want a Alston as a pinup.

  67. He's just a "Dick" by StefanK666 · · Score: 1

    This is the guy who, quote "made it illegal for any Australian to forward an email to someone else because of copyright laws. Any violation would result in a Au$60,000 fine or five years in jail. Not content with this madness, he then proposed fines of up to Au$10,000 against any individual that posted material on the Internet that the police deemed unsuitable to be seen by minors." Gee, I just forwarded an email to someone the other day "Dick". Do I owe you 60 grand now? Honestly, if this guy is proposing anti spam laws, it's probably because he just thinks it's a good thing to do and will appease the Liberal voters. Sing with me "Australia, Australia uber alles."

  68. Some wrong, some right by ajs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Ok, so this bill has some bad:

    "Address-harvesting software must not be supplied, acquired or used"

    Making a class of software illegal regardless of its use or usefullness is wrong. Period.

    As to address-harvesting, I've written my share of address-harvesting software that was for perfectly legitimate reasons (statistics usually, though for anti-spam reasons in one case).

    There is good in the bill though. It seeks to regulate a few things oddly (e.g. requiring "unsubscribe" facilities is pointless when almost all mailings are one-time events) but does avoid trying to regulate the way mail is formed and does leave legitimate forgery available to the average mail sender. There is one common form of forgery that this makes illegal, and I might have to have a talk with our legal counsul about it (since the law covers mail originating in Australia, not just mail recieved there). Our anti-virus software may be violating this law...

    Still, it's less draconian and less spam-industry-friendly than many ill-conceived laws I've seen.

    I'd still rather that governments stay out of it, or just fund the open source development of reputation-based anti-spam mail server software, but I guess that's a lost battle and everyone is too spooked by spam to see the long-term anymore.

  69. Re:Sad that something similar won't work in the US by SEWilco · · Score: 1

    He was referring to the gesture which everyone flips at lawyers.

  70. Incomplete Article by SEWilco · · Score: 1

    The article did not include a link to the pin-up.

  71. (OT) Advertising a web site in a /. sig link by yerricde · · Score: 1

    Usually, a Slashdot signature link brings in a healthy trickle of traffic, not a torrent like a front-page posting.

    Well at least it's better than spam.

    --
    Will I retire or break 10K?
  72. TO Police chlng providers to shut down free chat.. by CKW · · Score: 1

    He's not the only idiot.

    Toronto Police issued a challenge yesterday to other internet providers to follow Microsoft's lead and shut down free, anonymous chat rooms

    But then again, I haven't been lurking at the easy to find chat rooms that morons like Microsoft and the like have been making available. Maybe there are chat rooms out there that are all dressed up and easy to find for children (like at disney or the cartoon network) that have no controls and that are simply just too easy for predators to infiltrate (unlike IRC where ops and network admins prevent spamming, and the technology isn't as exploitable as Microsoft's crap, and you have to be pretty clue'd to find the place anyways as opposed to an 8 year old neophyte on a web board).

    There's also a "child exploitation conference" going on in Toronto this week, the Toronto Police probably just spouted that crap off to look good.

  73. that's beacause in Australia... by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

    everyone is decended from criminals (or fammine refugees from Ireland).

    1. Re:that's beacause in Australia... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Them's fighting words!

  74. Considered legal opinion from this Bush Lawyer by HSpirit · · Score: 1

    Yes.

  75. May prevent RDF/metadata crawling by timbomb · · Score: 1

    Section 3, Simplified Outline, states
    "Address-harvesting software must not be supplied, acquired or used"

    and

    Section 4, Definitions: defines "address-harvesting software" as
    "...software that is specifically designed or marketed for use for:
    (a) searching the Internet for electronic addresses;
    and
    (b) collecting, compiling, capturing or otherwise harvesting those electronic addresses."

    Unless refined, this seems to imply that metadata harvesters and many other legitimate harvesters will become "illegal". Which seems a little counter-productive.

  76. Re:TO Police chlng providers to shut down free cha by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    There's also a "child exploitation conference" going on in Toronto this week

    Good, Get all the child exploiters in one spot. Send Darl from SCO, dressed as a child!

  77. A nice summary of Alston's career.... by ken.quach · · Score: 1
    ... is nicely summarised at Whirlpool.

    Highlights:
    * Initially dismissing broadband as a gaming platform
    * Calling a country-wide broadband rollout a "costly waste of time"
    * Decreeing that consumers should be kept in the dark about their phone line
    * Linking the takeup of broadband to pornography
    * Allowing his department to spend $4,000,000 on a small and poorly developed website