The Guy Responsible For Ctrl-Alt-Del

Er, that's a bit much.... by tcopeland · 2003-09-30 03:50 · Score: 4, Insightful

....from the article:

> He's much too modest. Would Alexander Fleming
> have said, "It wasn't a memorable event," when
> he discovered penicillin?

Crikey.

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by NaugaHunter · 2003-09-30 03:57 · Score: 5, Funny

The author's comparing reseting a dead Windows computer with penicillin. Isn't penicillin used on unwanted infestations of bacteria? Not that far off, if you ask me.

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by jason0000042 · 2003-09-30 04:05 · Score: 5, Insightful

The author's comparing reseting a dead Windows computer with penicillin. Isn't penicillin used on unwanted infestations of bacteria? Not that far off, if you ask me.

But CTRL-ALT-DELETE wasn't discovered, as the article states. It was developed. Bradley made it up. Comparing it to the discovery of penicillin is like saying Tolkien discovered the lord of the rings.

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by Mephie · 2003-09-30 04:19 · Score: 5, Interesting

Honestly, though, he is modest. The IBM Campus in Raleigh had a career builder seminar once that he attended. He actually showed a video where he was speaking at a small conference where Bill Gates was in attendence.
On the video, someone made a comment about Ctrl-Alt-Del being a life saver as an easy way to reboot systems after a crash (back when the blue screen stayed up by default). His response was "I just coded the Ctrl-Alt-Del sequence. Bill Gates made it famous." The implication wasn't intentional, but the look on Bill's face was priceless.

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-30 04:40 · Score: 5, Funny

Well, with Pi being proved as infinite and non-repeating, then Lord of the Rings was actually sitting there encoded in Pi forever and would have been sitting there un-discovered had it not been for Tolkien finding it.
Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by MadocGwyn · 2003-09-30 05:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

Actually on most keyboards there are ctrl+alt keys on both sides of the keyboard, most of us are just used to left hand doing the ctrl alt, it can easily be done with the right hand on the right hand ctrl+alt keys.
Go ahead, try it twice quickly

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by dillon_rinker · 2003-09-30 05:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

You don't need pi, a transcendental number that requires calculus-level mathematics to construct. All you need are the integers. Convert LOTR to an integer, then count until you reach it. Presto! You've rediscovered LOTR! Simple enough for a child to understand.
Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by ashitaka · 2003-09-30 05:16 · Score: 3, Insightful

You point out one of the blind spots that many of us have through training. As others have shown, there are in fact CTRL and ALT keys on the right side of the keyboard as well.

At some point it may have been easy to hit both and then the DEL key in the group-of-six but with a Windows and Menu key in between the CTRL and ALT on my Dell keyboard it requires an uncomfortable stretching of thumb, curling of index finger and reach with my middle finger to hit the sequence.

Much easier to use the good old left ring finger, left index finger, right index finger combination, espeiclaly when you can slam the right finger down with the appropriate disgust at your crappy OS dying again.

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by Jon+Shaft · 2003-09-30 05:32 · Score: 5, Informative

You can see the video here. My apologies for the crappy news.com link.

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by Johnny5000 · 2003-09-30 05:54 · Score: 4, Funny

"Including the ellipsis, followed by the manual signature "-sam" at the end shatters the illusion that your connection was broken by a reboot. "

Maybe he was dictating?

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by landaker · 2003-09-30 06:10 · Score: 5, Funny

Convert LOTR to an integer, then count until you reach it.
Actually, the other day I was generating some really large numbers to look for potential large primes, when I saw a number that struck me as interesting, so I converted the number to binary and dumped it out in a binary file...
Then just yesterday, when trying to do some directory maintenence, I accidentally mistyped a command line and ended up calling perl on the binary file mentioned above. Well, you'd figure that would just give me garbage and die... but to my great surprise, it turns out that that number ended up being identical to a bzip2-compressed stream embedded in a perl script with self-extaction code.
Anyway, to make a long story short, it ended up spitting out the complete LOTR trilogy, nicely formatted in docbook SGML. Sadly, there were some typos, a few dangling reference sto some artwork that I don't have, and oddly enough, it wrote everything into my .gnupg/ directory as files named "bert.smgl", "ernie.sgml", and "bzgbir3.smgl"[sic], so I guess I'll just have to keep looking for interesting numbers and maybe I'll discover a version without these problems.
Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by jazman_777 · 2003-09-30 06:24 · Score: 2, Insightful

Guys/Gals, One of my points is still valid: It is essentially a meaningless sequence of keystrokes What do you think?
You are wrong. Ctl-Alt-Del is fraught with meaning. In fact, David Bradley first gave it meaning.

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by Xenoproctologist · 2003-09-30 06:50 · Score: 2, Funny

I used to use my middle finger when I had to ctrl-alt-del a locked computer, but it certainly wan't to press a key...
Re: Er, that's a bit much.... by gidds · 2003-09-30 07:40 · Score: 2, Informative

Nice idea, but far from true, I'm afraid. An infinite non-repeating number need not include every possible combination. For example, here's an infinite non-repeating decimal number that doesn't include any combination with the digits '2' to '9':
1.101001000100001000001...

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Re:Er, that's a bit much.... by drinkypoo · 2003-09-30 08:00 · Score: 2, Funny

Judging by your handle, it was to penetrate an alien's rectum.

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Patent madness? by grasshoppa · 2003-09-30 03:51 · Score: 5, Funny

Just imagine how much in royalties this guy could have made if he had developed that nowadays with our patent frenzy attitude!

Rich, he would have been rich I tell you!

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Re:Patent madness? by Zeinfeld · 2003-09-30 04:02 · Score: 2, Insightful

Just imagine how much in royalties this guy could have made if he had developed that nowadays with our patent frenzy attitude!
Err Apple had the prior art. If you look at any Apple ][ of the original series you will almost always find that there has been an after market add on to cover up the reset key which was placed in a ludicrously easy to hit by mistake location.
The only thing novel about ctrl-alt-del was that it was in the original hardware rather than an after market kludge. There were similar hacks on the PET, only there you could switch the reset off as it was a maskable interupt.
The later use came about because it is the only sequence that cannot be hijacked.

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Re:Patent madness? by nullard · 2003-09-30 04:18 · Score: 4, Interesting

The later use came about because it is the only sequence that cannot be hijacked

I love that security message from MS. I'm still waiting for someone to make a bootable linux CD (or hell, a DOS disk) that displays the same screen, looking like win2k and harvesting logins. It's not that hard to intercept ctrl-alt-del. I wonder if you could do it by messing with the keyboard drivers too. If you can change the signal the OS sees when ctrl-alt-del is pressed, you could intercept the interupt w/out resorting to using another OS.

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Re:Patent madness? by MouseR · 2003-09-30 04:22 · Score: 4, Informative

Before the reset buttons on Macs, Apple II machines (the //c, the ][e, ][+ and //) had a reset button seated on a hefty spring, and would only take effect if you held down the Apple button (nowadays known as the Command key).

Although some Macs have had bad placement for the reset button (some Performas and the Mac II line come to mind), most Macs have had their reset buttons on the side of the machine, where it's not as easy to reach by mistake (and quite frankly, hard to locate at times).

Some of the Macs, also, had reset buttons that were inside the case, and could only be accessible with an externally-mounted, optional button that reached inside of the case for the reset button. Such was the case for the Mac Plus, SE (and SE/30) and the Mac II line (II, II x, II fx).

The worst placement for the reset button was on the PowerMac 601 (pizza box "G1" if you wish), where the front-mounted reset (and power) switch was at the same height of the (then much) thick keyboard. Pushing the keyboard against the machine could switch it off. Outright stupid it was.
Re:Patent madness? by rikkards · 2003-09-30 04:31 · Score: 4, Informative

You're right it is capable of being hijacked. It uses the MSGINA.DLL and MS even explain how to do it on their website. It is capable of being used with a string of GINAs (Novell has one they use so that a user in a Novell Domain can log onto NDS called NWGINA.DLL)
Re:Patent madness? by Lev13than · 2003-09-30 05:01 · Score: 4, Funny

The worst placement for the reset button was on the PowerMac 601 (pizza box "G1" if you wish), where the front-mounted reset (and power) switch was at the same height of the (then much) thick keyboard. Pushing the keyboard against the machine could switch it off. Outright stupid it was.

Not only that, but they put it right beside the floppy drive. You could tell if someone was a PC user because they restarted the computer every time they tried to eject a disk...

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Re:Patent madness? by jerde · 2003-09-30 05:09 · Score: 2, Informative

Before the reset buttons on Macs, Apple II machines (the //c, the ][e, ][+ and //) had a reset button seated on a hefty spring, and would only take effect if you held down the Apple button (nowadays known as the Command key).

This only applied to the original Apple II and II+. In the earliest versions of those machines, the reset key was the same as any other key, and very easy to hit by mistake. My old II+ has the rubber washer installed under that keycap to make the key very hard to press. In later II+ revisions they changed to requiring control-reset. All later Apple II models use control-reset.

From http://apple2history.org/history/ah06.html:

The keyboard itself underwent some changes, both by users and by Apple. The original RESET key was in the upper right-hand corner of the keyboard. The problem with that key was that it had the same feel as the keys around it, making it possible to accidentally hit RESET and lose the entire program that was being so carefully entered. One user modification was to pop off the RESET keycap and put a rubber washer under it, making it necessary to apply more pressure than usual to do a RESET. Apple fixed this twice, once by replacing the spring under the keycap with a stiffer one, and finally by making it necessary to press the CTRL key and the RESET together to make a RESET cycle happen. The keyboards that had the CTRL-RESET feature made it user selectable via a small slide switch just inside the case (some people didn't want to have to press the CTRL key to do a RESET).

- Peter

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INsigNIFICANT
Re:Patent madness? by li99sh79 · 2003-09-30 05:09 · Score: 3, Insightful

The worst placement for the reset button was on the PowerMac 601 (pizza box "G1" if you wish), where the front-mounted reset (and power) switch was at the same height of the (then much) thick keyboard. Pushing the keyboard against the machine could switch it off. Outright stupid it was.
You got that right, i taped over the reset and debugger buttons on my 7100 after reaching for something, hitting the reset button, and loosing a paper. I was so glad when I ditched that 7100 for an 8600, which I still own to this day.
-sam

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Re:Patent madness? by grahamlee · 2003-09-30 05:11 · Score: 2, Informative

The Amiga had Ctrl-LAmiga-RAmiga (or Ctrl-CBM-Amiga on some keyboards) at much the same time.
Re:Patent madness? by khenson · 2003-09-30 05:21 · Score: 5, Funny

Banyan Vines used Vines Assist GINA - called VAGINA.DLL - but it took more than three fingers to make it work so they scrapped it...
Re:Patent madness? by Josuah · 2003-09-30 06:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

Just imagine how much in royalties this guy could have made if he had developed that nowadays with our patent frenzy attitude!

I'm pretty sure the implementation executed by Ctrl-Alt-Del is covered in IBM patent #4,768,149, filed in August 1985. This patent describes the basic intentions and implementation of the original Ctrl-Alt-Del keystroke.
Re:Patent madness? by mamba-mamba · 2003-09-30 07:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

I believe ctrl-alt-del raises a hardware signal, so I don't think messing with the keyboard drivers would allow you to intercept it.

I don't think there is any way to keep the hardware signal from being asserted, although you could certainly install a handler for the signal. To do this under nt/2k/xp-pro you would need to have priveledge.

I guess what they mean when they say it can't be hijacked is that it can't be hijacked by normal software running on your computer. Any attacker who could install a new interrupt handler already basically owns the box anyway.

MM
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Re:Patent madness? by palp · 2003-09-30 08:07 · Score: 2, Funny

You had to be really carefully when connecting/disconnecting cables if the system was you.

Yes, wouldn't want to hook cables up to yourself improperly.

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-palp

Heh. by SatanicPuppy · 2003-09-30 03:51 · Score: 3, Funny

Where would Windows be today without CTRL-ALT-DEL? I guess they would have had to add a hard reset button to all windows keyboards, which would then be in competition with the letter "e" for the key that wears out the fastest.

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Re:Heh. by wo1verin3 · 2003-09-30 03:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

Ctrl-Alt-Delete brings up task manager on some systems and options to change password/launch task manager/lock screen on the other.

It never had anything to do with hard reset, CTRL-ALT-DEL is a soft reset.

If you want a hard reset, thats why the case/tower normally has a button for reset.
Re:Heh. by geoffspear · 2003-09-30 04:01 · Score: 3, Funny

"Never" is a strong word from someone who apparently started using machines ripped off from the IBM PC model within the past 5-10 years.

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Re:Heh. by 1010011010 · 2003-09-30 04:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

It still needs reboots. It acts better once rebooted. In generalm Win2k and XP get alower the longer they run, and start experiencing problems like randomized icon images, windows that don't redraw, loss of fonts, etc. A reboot fixes all. When my Win2k laptop gets to where it's using >350MB of RAM, and I've closed all the apps, it's asking to be rebooted.

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Re:Heh. by cscx · 2003-09-30 04:19 · Score: 5, Informative

Well, aside from your comment indicating you to be a total jackass, there is actually a good reason behind the CTRL-ALT-DEL sequence in NT. It's a security feature.

"The CTRL-ALT-DEL key combination in NT disables user mode programs so a trojan program cannot intercept the user's name and password during the logon process. No user mode programs can be run until a valid logon has occurred. This is called restricted user mode. The CTRL-ALT-DEL key sequence indicates that there is a physically connected keyboard that the keystrokes are coming from. During the logon process, the Winlogon service passes the user's point of authentication, name, and password to the client/server (CSR) subsystem. The CSR passes the information to the security reference monitor which checks the Security Accounts Manager (SAM) database against the received information to see if the user is authentic. If so, a valid access token is generated and returned back down the line to the processes that sent the information."

Read more here.
Re:Heh. by cptgrudge · 2003-09-30 04:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

My system has been up for over two weeks without any of those problems. It's using 350MB RAM, but that's because it's me running programs. How convenient to blame Windows instead of finding the real problem.

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Re:Heh. by ebh · 2003-09-30 04:20 · Score: 2, Funny

Only on Slashdot could there be an argument over what CTRL-ALT-DEL does.
Re:Heh. by FuzzyBad-Mofo · 2003-09-30 04:37 · Score: 4, Funny

I have never came across more unergonomic key sequence than Control-Shift-Esc.

Obviously, you're not an EMACS user.
Re:Heh. by Politburo · 2003-09-30 04:53 · Score: 2, Interesting

CTRL-ALT-DEL also switches to another desktop that programs are not allowed to modify in any way (Yes, Windows has multiple desktops, see recent Dr. Dobbs article for more info).
Re:Heh. by DNS-and-BIND · 2003-09-30 05:09 · Score: 2, Informative

Nope. It's still with us. I've had to reboot three times in the past two days. Once for networking wierdness (reboot cured it), once for software installation (obligatory), and once because I had an unkillable task. Windows 2000, all patches/service packs.
Our "windows sysadmin" here at the office wants to reboot machines all the time. I have to stop him from rebooting the central server several times a day. "Greg, that server is in production...we can't reboot it". The culture of rebooting is still with the Windows world, in a big way. Scheduling your reboots is a foriegn concept.

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Re:Heh. by nortcele · 2003-09-30 05:18 · Score: 5, Funny

Yes, Windows has multiple desktops...
True. One of those "multiple" desktops usually has a blue background with white letters. I've seen it...
Re:Heh. by Quixadhal · 2003-09-30 05:33 · Score: 2, Informative

The CTRL-ALT-DEL key sequence indicates that there is a physically connected keyboard that the keystrokes are coming from.
Is that why it works just fine under VNC? Don't kid yourself, Ctrl-Alt-Delete isn't a single keystroke, nor is it an NMI, it's just three key-down events that the windows event handler pays attention to. While it may disable pure user-mode programs, it's trivial to make a program that will hang onto admin privs if it acquires them (such as the VNC server).
It is true that trojans would need to get permission to run with privs, or find an exploit, but once there they can happily reroute the CSR services through themselves with the Ctrl-Alt-Delete handler none the wiser.
Clouds drift, birds fly, windows break.

Thank you by yotto · 2003-09-30 03:52 · Score: 5, Funny

As a tech support guy, I just want to give this man a hearty "Thank You"

"I don't have a control key. I have an alt key and this little wavy square, and next to that is a curtl key. And I hit that and backspace and it doesn't do anything."

Thanks, man.

(ps: yes, I know he didn't intend it for the end user. It's a JOKE. Read it, chuckle, give me mod points, and move on)

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Another interesting fact: by Sheetrock · 2003-09-30 03:52 · Score: 5, Interesting

Ctrl-Alt-Del is the only key combination on your computer that has its own hardware interrupt (similar to Ctrl-Open Apple/Closed Apple-Reset on Macs). Again, this was to prevent interception in real mode, however protected mode changes all rules.

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Re:Another interesting fact: by l2718 · 2003-09-30 04:04 · Score: 5, Informative

Ctrl-Alt-Del is the only key combination on your computer that has its own hardware interrupt ... this was to prevent interception in real mode

Not quite. Interrupt processing by the hardware is the same for real and protected modes (which are internal to the processor).

All key press/release events generate the same hardware interrupt (normally the keyboard is wired to the IRQ1 line of the interrupt controller). Standard BIOS setup configures the 8859 to generate Int 0x9 for this IRQ. The keyboard interrupt handler is then charged with identifying the Ctrl-Alt-Del combination and acting on it.

The default BIOS action is to triger a software interrupt (Int 0x17 IIRC). The motivation for this was not to prevent interceptions. Rather, this conforms to the policy of having BIOS entrypoints go through software interrupts (in this case allowing any program to generate a soft-boot).
Re:Another interesting fact: by jsmyth · 2003-09-30 04:08 · Score: 4, Informative

Ctrl-Alt-Del is the only key combination on your computer that has its own hardware interrupt
Nope. It shares the same hardware IRQ with everything else on the keyboard. The interrupt service routine handles the particular values received from the keyboard, so it spawns a software interrupt for ctrl-alt-del that (OS-specific) suspends user mode code and does something configurable, e.g. Windows Security dialog in W2K, task mgr in W9x, or in Linux configured by what you've got in /etc/inittab.

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So it's his fault ... by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-30 03:53 · Score: 2, Funny

That Windows is even usable.

Oh yes they can be struck by accident! by gunne · 2003-09-30 03:53 · Score: 5, Funny

When quake first was released, i didn't want to use the mouse, only the keyboard. However, after doing the shoot-strafe-left-look-down maneuver one time too many, i decided to switch to mouse... (shoot-strafe-left-look-down = ctrl, alt(gr), left arrow, delete)

Re:Oh yes they can be struck by accident! by A_Non_Moose · 2003-09-30 04:30 · Score: 3, Funny

Accident...sure. {kidding, of course}

Though it could be worse, here's how:

Clippy: It looks like you're about to have your ass handed to you in Quake and you pressed ctrl+alt+delete.

Would you like to:

1) Reboot and look like a llama?

2) Like me to write an apology for you (after reboot, of course).

3) Let you continue playing, while I stay on as a background task laughing at you and sending l33t /\/\3$$4G3$ for you?

4) Suggest you use a mouse, you dork, as this is not Doom or Doom ][.

5) Launch minesweeper...c'mon, you know you want to! No pressure though....muwahaha...errr.

/end clippy

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Not struck by accident? by burgburgburg · 2003-09-30 03:54 · Score: 4, Funny

Who is he kidding? Just the other day, my gorillas and I were playing soccer in the lab. Why we must of hit ctrl-alt-del over a hundred times just in the first half. After that, we moved the game over to the kitchen, just to be safe.

Re:Not struck by accident? by jandrese · 2003-09-30 04:30 · Score: 2, Funny

Reminds me of a commercial I saw awhile back. A salaryman in an office is crumbling up a bag of chips and dumping it on his keyboard, then he opens the window and leaves. In comes a pigeon that starts hopping around and tapping on the keys, trying to get at the crumbs. out in the hallway a boss-guy walks by and pauses at the door for a second. He hears a tapping sound and walks away happy, thinking his drone is hard at work. The scene cuts to a bar where the guy is popping a beer (which is I think what the ad was selling) and muttering some comment about working hard.

I thought it was pretty amusing.

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Was it first? by Shamashmuddamiq · 2003-09-30 03:54 · Score: 3, Interesting

...or was the Apple ]['s openapple-control-reset first? I know that the Apple ][ came out in 1977, but I'm not sure if it had implemented the three-key sequence yet or if it had borrowed that idea from the alt-ctrl-delete that was noted here.

Anybody wanna fill in on the details here?

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Re:Was it first? by Hugh+George+Asm · 2003-09-30 04:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

..or was the Apple ]['s openapple-control-reset first? I know that the Apple ][ came out in 1977, but I'm not sure if it had implemented the three-key sequence yet or if it had borrowed that idea from the alt-ctrl-delete that was noted here.
Apple ][ Plus shipped with a hard "RESET" button not requiring any additional keys in combination. It had to be pushed pretty hard to make it depress, though. Unfortunately, it was somewhat close to "ESC" and occationally did get hit inadvertantly.
Then on the Apple ][e they fixed this problem by making the key-sequence be open-apple/reset in combination. You could catch this interrupt in software though, and ignore it. From a basic program, you could cause this interrupt to kill the program, reboot, or be ignored. It was just a few POKEs.

Wow, this is really bad article.... by malakai · 2003-09-30 03:54 · Score: 5, Insightful

It was not a memorable event," said Bradley, a longtime IBM employee, speaking of that day in 1980 or '81 when he discovered control-alt-delete.
...

He's much too modest. Would Alexander Fleming have said, "It wasn't a memorable event," when he discovered penicillin? Would Albert Einstein have said, "I really can't recall when I discovered E=MC squared?"

uh huh...

Bradley chose the control and alt keys because he needed two shift keys to make the operation work, and he chose the delete key because it was on the opposite side of the keyboard. He didn't want people to hit control-alt-delete by accident.

It's more complicated than that, of course, but most people don't have a Ph.D. in electrical engineering from Purdue University, as Bradley does

oh please. He picked a key sequence that's difficult to accidentally set off. So what? It could have been shift-esc-break. If this is what a Ph.D. in electrical engineering is good for, I'm glad I don't have mine.

And the reason MS used it for login in NT 3.1 was for security. It negated the possibility of a impersonation client that displayed an image which looked like the NT 3.1 login, but just stole Passwords instead. If such a client was written to DOS or Windows it would simple reboot. So it was a sanity check, at the time.

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IBM Rock Star. by kabocox · 2003-09-30 03:55 · Score: 3, Funny

"I actually have a real job, but I enjoy doing this," Bradley says. "I'm as close as you get to a rock star within IBM."

That's just what the world needs IBM Rockstars. All he needs are groupies.

Heh I thought of this CTRL-ALT-DEL by bazik · 2003-09-30 03:55 · Score: 2, Informative

When I read 'the guy responsible for Ctrl-Alt-Del", I thought you ment Tim Buckly - author of the awesome Ctrl-Alt-Del Webcomic Series.

I love this Comic :)

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Windows' use of CTRL-ALT-DEL by legLess · 2003-09-30 03:58 · Score: 5, Informative

...certainly not to have Windows users change their passwords or logoff.

Many people rag on this, but it actually made some sense at the time. Microsoft has removed it from later versions of Windows for convenience, not security, purposes.

For people who don't know, WIndows NT 4 (and perhaps 3.5 and earlier?) required one to hit CTRL-ALT-DEL to get a login prompt. Many people complained, not seeing the logic in it, but logic there is.

CTRL-ALT-DEL is can never, ever be trapped by an application -- unless Windows has hosed completely, it's guaranteed to get the OS's attention. Having to hit it to get a login box means that no other application can fake a login box. If they tried, CTRL-ALT-DEL would bring up the task manager instead of a login dialog.

So regardless of whether you like it, the minor annoyance served a good purpose and was actually a fairly clever design decision. Much smarter than, oh, allowing macro viruses to execute by default.

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Re:Windows' use of CTRL-ALT-DEL by Mr.+Slippery · 2003-09-30 04:12 · Score: 2, Informative

CTRL-ALT-DEL is can never, ever be trapped by an application -- unless Windows has hosed completely, it's guaranteed to get the OS's attention.

That's called a "secure attention key (SAK)". It's an old idea, found on many different systems - a key or key sequence that can't be intercepted and is guaranteed to reach the "trusted computing base (TCB)".

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Re:Windows' use of CTRL-ALT-DEL by Telcontar · 2003-09-30 04:14 · Score: 4, Interesting

Your reasoning does not apply to Windows NT4, as DirectX allows application to intercept any key combination, including the three-finger salute.

The same goes for remote desktop applications such as "PC anywhere" etc.

So it really is a major annoyance and serves no purpose.
Re:Windows' use of CTRL-ALT-DEL by pHDNgell · 2003-09-30 04:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

CTRL-ALT-DEL is can never, ever be trapped by an application

I mapped it to something like ``xset s activate'' on my Linux box. I kinda laugh every time I hit it just because I think it's funny that I mapped my lock to a key combination that ``can't be trapped by an application.''

--
-- The world is watching America, and America is watching TV.
Re:Windows' use of CTRL-ALT-DEL by radish · 2003-09-30 04:26 · Score: 2, Informative

Errmmm...maybe I'm using some other Windows, but here I have to press Ctrl-Alt-Del to login to my W2K and XP boxes too. Did I miss something? You say they removed it? Err?

ps. I know you can set an auto-logon into the registry, but that hack does more than disable Ctrl-Alt-Del, and works on very old versions.

--
---- Den ene knappen er powerknapp, den andre er Bender voice knapp "Bite My Shiny Metal Ass"
Re:Windows' use of CTRL-ALT-DEL by malloc · 2003-09-30 04:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

Your reasoning does not apply to Windows NT4, as DirectX allows application to intercept any key combination, including the three-finger salute.
His reasoning was, "it actually made some sense at the time." I.e. *before* DirectX came out.
The same goes for remote desktop applications such as "PC anywhere" etc.

I've used PC/Anywhere (v8-10) a fair amount and have seen no such thing. In fact I've observed exactly opposite your point. PC/Anywhere has a special button to generate a CTRL-ALT-DEL on the remote host specifically because it can't hook your local CTRL-ALT-DEL.

Now, is it useful anymore, no, but I don't see why people are complaining so much. You get used to hitting three keys once in a while instead of clicking 'Login' or what have you.
-Malloc

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___________________ I want to be free()!
Re:Windows' use of CTRL-ALT-DEL by Keeper · 2003-09-30 07:04 · Score: 3, Insightful

DirectX allows application to intercept any key combination, including the three-finger salute.

Please show me how you can intercept ctrl-alt-del using DirectX. All of the documentation I've seen indicates that it can't be done. The lack of login-screen spoofing apps would tend to back the documented side of things.

It is possible to capture ctrl-alt-del on Win9x, however I haven't seen a way to do it using DirectX on Win9x.

Money maker.. by grub · 2003-09-30 03:59 · Score: 3, Funny

If he could come up with a micro-payment plan for using his idea he could make millions off the Windows users in a couple of months.

--
Trolling is a art,

exactly by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-30 03:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

Bradley says the "strength of the country" is at stake because relatively few students go into science or technology

Why should they when engineers can't find jobs, salesmen are making 6 figures and MBAs are stealing all the money.

Ummm... by TheShadow · 2003-09-30 04:00 · Score: 5, Informative

Why is it that everyone thinks that Ctrl-Alt-Del has some special hardware interrupt, or something else that makes it magical?

The BIOS traps that combination (through the normal keyboard interrupt) and initiates a system reboot.

Problem is, if your OS isn't using the BIOS for keyboard input (pretty much every modern OS uses it's own keyboard handling code) then the OS determines what this key combination does.

In either case, it is software that determines what that key combination does.

--

--
"What do you want me to do? Whack a guy? Off a guy? Whack off a guy? Cause I'm married."

Something Windows NT did right by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-30 04:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

The use of ctrl-alt-del to login to or unlock windows NT, and to change the password was one of the things Windows NT did right. On x86 hardware ctrl-alt-del generates a harware interrupt. So it always traps into the OS. This helps prevent trojan login screens and such.

I can write an app that looks just like the NT login that will e-mail me all passwords and present the user with an 'incorrect password' dialog. And maybe make it exit so the user next sees the nornal login tool to make it less suspicious. However, I can't write an app to trap the ctrl-alt-del, so it doesn't work.

Rumour has it... by swordgeek · 2003-09-30 04:02 · Score: 3, Insightful

...that the real reason Microsoft used Ctrl-Alt-Del for the NT login was that everyone was already familiar with it.

(Yeah, it's a hardcoded interrupt, but in protected mode that's pretty much irrelevant)

--

"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban

It doesn't matter what it is... by Kynde · 2003-09-30 04:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

...but there's a reason why Windoze uses that for logging in. That is, that key combo cannot be intercepted by applications thus making it impossible to create infamous fake logins for grabbing user credentials mere looks-like-login-screen. Naturally such preventive measures could've been done a bit more elegantly than just using ctrl-alt-del to log in, but still, it's a very windowsy way of overcoming obstacles.

In many unix systems however, there are little or no protection for fake-login local attacks, eventhough preventive measures would be quite easy to implement using some key combo deemed ungrabbable by user software (little like say ctrl-alt-backspace is in X). It's all too easy to display a xdm/gdm look-a-like screen on university/public-office displays and grab logins and then display some sort of segfault crap an logout back to the real xdm/gdm. Average (l)user hardly takes much of a notice.

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1 Earth is warming, 2 It's us, 3 it's royally bad, 4 we need to take action NOW

Re:It doesn't matter what it is... by AT · 2003-09-30 04:56 · Score: 5, Informative

That is, that key combo cannot be intercepted by applications thus making it impossible to create infamous fake logins for grabbing user credentials mere looks-like-login-screen

This is actually untrue. There are several ways to capture ctrl-alt-del in Windows. One is by remapping the keyboard with the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Contro l\Keyboard Layout registry entry. This changes the key mappings before the system processes ctrl-alt-del.

The idea of a secure access key is a good one, but MS has a broken implementation since they allow it to be circumvented.
Re:It doesn't matter what it is... by dark+druid · 2003-09-30 06:04 · Score: 4, Informative

It's not broken. You have to be an admin to change that registry key. If you are already an admin it doesn't really matter since you could do more creative things like replace the keyboard driver.
Re:It doesn't matter what it is... by spitzak · 2003-09-30 10:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

The admin still cant get information that is not stored on the machine, such as passwords that are stored in the domain controller. Thus doing this does have the potential of getting information they don't already have access to, so it is bad.

Re:Too short by DrWhizBang · 2003-09-30 04:05 · Score: 3, Funny

Should you really use the word "poof" when posting about an article on "the three-fingered salute"?

--
Schrodinger's cat is either dead or really pissed off...

On Tech TV by pr0vidence · 2003-09-30 04:05 · Score: 5, Funny

I actually saw a video clip on Tech TV with him and Bill Gates (and someone else but the name eludes me for the moment). They were in some sort of conference and he goes (not a word-for-word quote)"Yes well I'm the one who created CTRL-ALT-DEL, but Bill here is the one who made it famous" ... rousing laughter from the crowd, Bill has the embarassed grin on his face. He allows the laughter to die a little and says "...For Windows NT log-ons!" it was a CLASSIC moment.

Re:On Tech TV by _xeno_ · 2003-09-30 04:46 · Score: 3, Informative

I found a video of it on the TechTV site, but if you look closely at it, you'll note that whoever encoded this video swiped some other video and encoded that. Look closely and you'll notice the original progress bar on the bottom of the movie sliding under it, as well as text from where the video was originally from. (The movie is the "video highlight" for the day, and requires JS and Windows Media Player. Works under Mozilla, though. You'll need to look at an ad, too.)
By the way, it's closer to:
Bradley: "Now I have to share the credit. I may have invented it, but I think that Bill Gates is the one who made it famous."
Roaring laughter, shot of Bill Gates looking a bit miffed.
"When you used it for NT logon! That's what I meant."
Shot of Bill Gates shrugging and acting as if maybe he believes Bradley.

All in all, Gates too it rather well, you need to see the video because my description makes it sound like Gates got really upset and he took it in stride quite well.

--
You are in a maze of twisty little relative jumps, all alike.

Frightening by not_a_george · 2003-09-30 04:07 · Score: 3, Funny

Good thing this guy doesn't work for SCO
Can you imagine paying $699 everytime you have to ctrl-alt-delete?

--
Linux: Helping nerds look smarter since the late 90s.

Weird accessory by allanj · 2003-09-30 04:09 · Score: 4, Funny

From when Win95/98 reigned supreme - CtrlAltDel stick!

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Black holes are where God divided by zero

Re:Weird accessory by DWormed · 2003-09-30 04:33 · Score: 3, Informative

Of course, for those of us who are slightly more lazy, this Easier to use version.

--
Dependable, Reliable Furnishings

fysically impaired? by valentyn · 2003-09-30 04:09 · Score: 3, Interesting

I once worked at a help desk. One call I remember is a man who, after my suggestion he should press "control alt del" went silent for a moment, then told me he only had one hand.

(It's sad to see that an option that was originally meant for engineers, made it all up to the login screen of an operating system. Well, maybe Larry presses the "eject" button to start his plane, what do we know? ;-)

--
my other sig is a 500 page novel

Re:fysically impaired? by poot_rootbeer · 2003-09-30 05:40 · Score: 2, Informative

after my suggestion he should press "control alt del" went silent for a moment, then told me he only had one hand.

The right-hand Ctrl and Alt keys are within reach of the Del key. It's a bit awkward, but it should be.
Re:fysically impaired? by Cro+Magnon · 2003-09-30 06:02 · Score: 2, Informative

I just checked. I had my index finger on Alt, my third finger on Ctrl, my pinky on Del - and my middle finger sticking straight out. I guess that IS the right way to do it.

--
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
Re:fysically impaired? by jpmkm · 2003-09-30 07:10 · Score: 2, Informative

Thumb on alt, ring finger on control, middle finger on delete.

One-armed users everywhere.. by AgentPhunk · 2003-09-30 04:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Now one-armed users can give a one-finger salute to the man that created the three-finger-salute.

He really dosent take this stuff seriously by eeinnc · 2003-09-30 04:14 · Score: 2, Interesting

I have had Dr. Bradley for several classes at NCSU, he is a good instructor and mostly just jokes about his part in creating the first IBM PC. His famous quote is "I may have created ctrl-alt-delete, but it took Bill Gates to make it famous." I wish there were more guys like Bradley that took time to come back to the classroom and share there valuable experience with the next generation of engineers. Thanks Dr. Bradley.

Another good story on Dr. Bradley and PC history by Ewann · 2003-09-30 04:16 · Score: 3, Informative

Here's one that has some more quotes from Dr. Bradley about inventing Ctrl-Alt-Del, as well as interviews with others on the team that invented the first IBM PC.

Googling on his name along with "history of IBM PC" yields other good tidbits.

In other news... by WalterSobchak · 2003-09-30 04:16 · Score: 4, Funny

I can vivedly remeber unpacking my first Macintosh, must have been 1984 or something. The package included a little, user installable switch, and this is what the Mac Handbook had to say about it:

"Programmer's Switch
The switch causes a reset or an interrupt. If you do not know what a reset or an interrupt is, you do not need it."

I could not have said it better...

Alex

--
Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder

That and SysRq by morcheeba · 2003-09-30 04:18 · Score: 4, Informative

SysRq was the original interrupt-generating special keystroke. It doesn't get much use anymore, though.

--
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets

"Re:Er" is a palindrome! (NT) by Mephie · 2003-09-30 04:21 · Score: 4, Funny

Just an observation...

I should really get some work done...

--
Buy the President

Right. In fact, by TrekkieGod · 2003-09-30 04:21 · Score: 4, Informative

If you'd like to trap the Ctrl-Alt-Del combination in Linux, and use it for something else, edit your inittab. Look for a comment along the lines of #trap CTRL-ALT-DEL. Below it there will be a command such as

ca::ctrlaltdel:/sbin/shutdown -r now

Yep...you might recognize that as the reboot command. You can go ahead and change it so that it shuts down your computer or run anything else you desire (although it'll run it with root privileges so, don't put something stupid in there unless you're running Lindows and therefore are always root, I guess)

--

Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.

It's about time by br00tus · 2003-09-30 04:23 · Score: 5, Funny

It's about time Slashdot got around to honoring this man.

David Bradley, I give you a three finger salute. Microsoft, I salute you as well, minus two fingers.

Contrary to Popular Belief by pete-classic · 2003-09-30 04:24 · Score: 2, Redundant

David Bradley created this key sequence.

Bill Gates merely made it famous.

-Peter

Not enough technology students by antirename · 2003-09-30 04:25 · Score: 4, Insightful

So, this guy thinks that too few students are going for science or technology degrees? I wonder why... lets see, scientists dont make much. Manufacturing is moving to the third world, and taking a hell of a lot of engineering jobs with it. IT is moving to India. Yeah, I'd be sure to pick one of those fields if I were trying to decide on a major. You can't blame the students for the decline in "the strength of the country", they're just looking out for themselves and trying to pick a career that might actually have a future.

Re:Not enough technology students by Prof.Phreak · 2003-09-30 09:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

On a plus side, those who do enter the CS world, are much more dedicated (and are actually interested) in this subject than they were a few years ago.

--
"If anything can go wrong, it will." - Murphy

It very well can be hit by accident! by harks · 2003-09-30 04:27 · Score: 2, Funny

When playing quake, using Ctrl for shoot, Alt for strafe, and del for looking downwards simultaneously! It has happened to me.

Re:Win NT by cwj123 · 2003-09-30 04:30 · Score: 2, Informative

By default it isn't enabled only if you aren't logging on to a windows domain controller (just the local computer). If your in a corporate setting normally you are and having to press Ctrl-Alt-Del remains in full effect...

Not immune, just more difficult by deinol · 2003-09-30 04:30 · Score: 3, Informative

Using Ctrl-Alt-Del for a login prompt doesn't mean you can't have a Trojan password gatherer. It just means you have to code it in Linux/*BSD where you can control the interrupt yourself. Make it bootable from floppy (grabbing extra data from HD or net if needed) and after a few login tries it 'reboots'. The floppy is long gone, and now it's back to the real NT (or 2k/xp) screen.

Nothing is secure when you can get physical access to the machine.

--
Got Apathy?

I don't know about the Apples, but (+) by Mycroft_514 · 2003-09-30 04:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

The intertec Superbrains and Compustars had a pair of RED keys - one at each end of the keyboard. You had to depress BOTH of them to get a reboot. I was working on these machines when the IBM PC hit the market, as one of my then bosses went to the show where they were announced.

I think those machines had been around for 3 or 4 years by then. I know they pre date 1981 when I was working on them, as the Compustar was the "new and improved" version of the Superbrain.

And these machines were probably copying someone else as well, but we will never know who, because Intertec went the way of the dinosaur....

almost on topic web comic by RainbowSix · 2003-09-30 04:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

Here's a webcomic that's just over a year old that some of you might like, it is called ctrl+alt+del :)
http://ctrlaltdel-online.com/

The main characters are a few crazy gamers, and a linux guy who has a live-in penguin named Ted. Hillarity ensues.

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It's OK to be social, just don't tell anyone about it.

did you read the OS documentation? by oliverthered · 2003-09-30 04:39 · Score: 4, Informative

Ok, so I didn't read all of it either, here's howto and ahy to use sysrq under linux 2.6 /usr/linux-beta/Documentation/sysrq.txt Edit ed for lameness, have fun "Linux Magic System Request Key Hacks Documentation for sysrq.c version 1.15 Last update: $Date: 2001/01/28 10:15:59 $ * What is the magic SysRq key? It is a 'magical' key combo you can hit which the kernel will respond to regardless of whatever else it is doing, unless it is completely locked up. * How do I enable the magic SysRq key? You need to say "yes" to 'Magic SysRq key (CONFIG_MAGIC_SYSRQ)' when configuring the kernel. When running on a kernel with SysRq compiled in, it may be DISABLED at run-time using following command: echo "0" > /proc/sys/kernel/sysrq Note that previous versions disabled sysrq by default, and you were required to specifically enable it at run-time. That is not the case any longer. * How do I use the magic SysRq key? On x86 - You press the key combo 'ALT-SysRq-<command key>'. Note - Some keyboards may not have a key labeled 'SysRq'. The 'SysRq' key is also known as the 'Print Screen' key. On SPARC - You press 'ALT-STOP-<command key>', I believe. On the serial console (PC style standard serial ports only) - You send a BREAK, then within 5 seconds a command key. Sending BREAK twice is interpreted as a normal BREAK. On PowerPC - Press 'ALT - Print Screen (or F13) - <command key>, Print Screen (or F13) - <command key> may suffice. On other - If you know of the key combos for other architectures, please let me know so I can add them to this section. On all - write a character to /proc/sysrq-trigger. eg: echo t > /proc/sysrq-trigger * What are the 'command' keys? 'r' - Turns off keyboard raw mode and sets it to XLATE. 'k' - Secure Access Key (SAK) Kills all programs on the current virtual console. NOTE: See important comments below in SAK section. 'b' - Will immediately reboot the system without syncing or unmounting your disks. 'o' - Will shut your system off (if configured and supported). 's' - Will attempt to sync all mounted filesystems. 'u' - Will attempt to remount all mounted filesystems read-only. 'p' - Will dump the current registers and flags to your console. 't' - Will dump a list of current tasks and their information to your console. 'm' - Will dump current memory info to your console. 'v' - Dumps Voyager SMP processor info to your console. '0'-'9' - Sets the console log level, controlling which kernel messages will be printed to your console. ('0', for example would make it so that only emergency messages like PANICs or OOPSes would make it to your console.) 'e' - Send a SIGTERM to all processes, except for init. 'i' - Send a SIGKILL to all processes, except for init. 'l' - Send a SIGKILL to all processes, INCLUDING init. (Your system will be non-functional after this.) 'h' - Will display help ( actually any other key than those listed above will display help. but 'h' is easy to remember :-) * Okay, so what can I use them for? Well, un'R'aw is very handy when your X server or a svgalib program crashes. sa'K' (Secure Access Key) is useful when you want to be sure there are no trojan program is running at console and which could grab your password when you would try to login. It will kill all programs on given console and thus letting you make sure that the login prompt you see is actually the one from init, not some trojan program. IMPORTANT:In its true form it is not a true SAK like the one in :IMPORTANT IMPORTANT:c2 compliant systems, and it should be mistook as such. :IMPORTANT It seems other find it useful as

--
thank God the internet isn't a human right.

What about the other PCs? by jpvlsmv · 2003-09-30 04:40 · Score: 5, Funny

I mean, why isn't there a Ctrl-Alt-Gateway or Ctrl-Alt-Compaq? What makes Dell so special?

--Joe

Re:Win NT by Kombat · 2003-09-30 04:40 · Score: 2, Funny

I remember the first time I installed NT 4.0 Workstation on my PC back in university. A friend who'd used it before was helping me, and the first time we booted it, the dialog appeared, advising me to hit CTRL+ALT+DEL to login. Having never heard of this before, my immediate response was to ask my friend, "Huh? CTRL+ALT+DEL to login? How do I reboot? 'Enter'?"

--
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.

Re:The only difference is... by micromoog · 2003-09-30 04:40 · Score: 4, Insightful

Windows automatically reboots itself now. Explorer crashes, then restarts itself.

If you're going to get to that level of detail, shall we discuss the (in)stability of Gnome/KDE? It seems all to convenient that when Slashdotters define "Windows crashing", it includes any operational glitch at all, but "Linux crashing" seems to be confined to kernel panic only.

Two fingered salute by coinreturn · 2003-09-30 04:52 · Score: 2, Informative

Apple ][ Plus shipped with a hard "RESET" button not requiring any additional keys in combination. It had to be pushed pretty hard to make it depress, though. Unfortunately, it was somewhat close to "ESC" and occationally did get hit inadvertantly.

There was a switch on the keyboard controller that allowed you to change it to ctrl-reset.

Don't forget about Ctl-Alt-Ins by bbstone · 2003-09-30 04:55 · Score: 2, Informative

On the original IBM PC Jr., circa 1980, it had both soft-reset (Ctl-Alt-Del) and diagnostic mode (Ctl-Alt-Ins). Wouldn't it be great to boot into a diag mode and check memory, disk, video. Maybe these new bios' will give me back a feature from 23 yrs ago.

Re:Yeah but by dissy · 2003-09-30 05:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

> Yeah, but who made the Mac shortcut? They have two:
>
> Command-Option-Escape is Force Quit...
> Control-Command-Power is Restart

Those are actually left over from the Apple // days.

The apple//'s had two 'alternate' keys, open-apple and closed-apple (Pictures of either an apples outlike, or a solid apple)
There was also a hardware reset button.
There was no alt, but there was control and shift (standard ASCII practice at the time)

The reset key was hard wired into the interupt controller, but it performed a soft-reset used alone, and by default the jump register was not set so the key didnt do anything.
In the // and //+ i believe this was used by the basic addon card (Each machine came with one ver of basic in it, and the other version on an addon card, depending which modal you got. the //+ had more ram too)

Technically speaking, the two apple keys were not handled by the keyboard controller, but by the joystick controller.
As a matter of fact, open apple and closed apple were button 1 and 2 on the first joystick. So technically one could reboot with a joystick-button, control, reset as well ;)

Just open-apple and reset caused a soft-reset signal to the cpu. this signal told the cpu to simply jump to a memory location ($FFFD if memory serves) and not to reset any other states or registers. This was used to 'break' programs run that didnt want to give it up easily and trapped control-C and the like.
In the three bytes there you had a jump command, and the next two bytes are the address where.

Then they added the 3rd key, control, which is actually the only key of the three that comes through the keyboard controller.
So there is one direct interpt key (reset), an apple key (joystick), and control key (keyboard) that all three caused the cpu to reset the counters and registers so the chip would have to reboot from scratch.

Later, closed apple was removed, and open-apple was renamed 'command' and given a stupid clover looking icon. Nowadays open-apple/command is also labeled as 'alt', and in USB keyboards actually sends the same keyboard code.

The open-apple,control,escape was actually from the Apple //GS. That key combo was added to get into the systems control panel (There generally wasnt an OS)

On the apple// it was a hardware reason. the //gs just wanted something similar and familiar but different (escape vs reset), and the macs just continued using them because apple users were used to it.

(Ahh the wasted brain memory I have used up on that subject heh)

My admiration goes to whoever... by RetiredMidn · 2003-09-30 05:06 · Score: 2, Interesting

...worked around the issue on the 80286 that there was no way to switch back to "real" (16-bit segmented addressing) mode from "protected" mode.

http://www.hyperdictionary.com/computing/protect ed +mode

IIRC, the IBM PC AT (which first used the '286 and implemented protected mode operations) would send a signal to the keyboard, which in turn reset the CPU (the only way to get back to real mode) and somehow got the machine to proceed with what it was doing.

After learning about that, I switched to the Mac and never looked back (even if the 68000 did have its own quirks...)

Dr. Bradley as an instructor by codecool · 2003-09-30 05:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

I have been Dr. Bradley's Teaching Assistant http://courses.ncsu.edu/ece/ since January, and it has been a pleasure working for him. He is really a motivation. Down to earth and sharp, thats what makes him different from other famous people. Even as an instructor, he likes to maintain tasteful interaction with his students and the students love him too.

You have to see his "I love me" collection to really appreciate him though :-)

-es

Re:Win NT by drinkypoo · 2003-09-30 05:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

In Windows NT, applications do not have access to the vector table (or at least they aren't supposed to, heh heh) so they cannot change the keyboard interrupt handling routine, and they cannot change the behavior of ctrl-alt-del. However, in DOS, any program can indeed alter the vector table, and so you can mask ctrl-alt-del. So actually, it was pretty pointless in terms of protecting you from a Windows NT lookalike written in DOS or Windows 3.1[1], but it will protect you from a program running on Windows NT which does the same thing. In order to change the OS, you will need physical access to the machine in almost all cases, and so this is considered to be a useful security measure.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"

HERE'S THE VID! by swordboy · 2003-09-30 05:34 · Score: 4, Funny

The vid of Bradley vs. Gates. Hilarious!

--

Life is the leading cause of death in America.

Re:HERE'S THE VID! by Jeedo · 2003-09-30 10:00 · Score: 2

would someone be so nice as to provide a mirror? i cant seem to be able to play the stream with mplayer

Properly known as a SAK (Secure Attention Key) by Elladan · 2003-09-30 05:38 · Score: 5, Informative

This feature is properly known as a SAK - Secure Attention Key. It's an old security feature used to prevent hijacking of trusted consoles, as you said, and is implemented on many systems. The perennial place where it's needed is university computer labs, where logging in and then leaving a fake login prompt running to capture passwords is has always been considered good clean fun. (To implement it properly, one should print a "wrong password!" message, and then exit the user session completely giving the user the real login prompt)

The basic idea is that the OS traps the SAK and does something obvious (like give you a login prompt) to keep a user from running a program pretending to be the OS. Since the OS doesn't let the user handle the SAK, security is maintained.

Linux supports SAK, however it's never really been properly deployed by distributions. Part of the reason is that nobody's ever really standardized on what the SAK key should be. If SysRQ is enabled, than Alt-SysRQ-k will cause a SAK event in the kernel. Otherwise, the keyboard driver can be configured by root to use any key sequence. One key sequence I've seen used is Alt-SysRQ-PageDown, but there's really no particular standard.

When SAK is raised in linux, all programs running on the current terminal are force-killed. It's then expected that init will provide a new login prompt there.

This leads to the second problem with SAK on Linux, namely that most users run X on workstation machines. If you SAK while X is running, the kernel kill -9's X... Which trashes your video card, leaving the system in an unusable state. Which is probably not what you wanted. Some video drivers and cards in X may be stable enough that, if you're running xdm/gdm/kdm etc., it may be able to restart X and give you an X11 login prompt - but the console will still be trashed, so you won't be able to exit out of X afterwards (or eg. with ctrl-alt-f1). It used to be the case that you could store the video settings for your console and run a program (eg. restoretext etc.) to fix them, but that hasn't worked on any modern video card in years. In addition, if you just escape out of X and then fix the console, X will re-trash your console as soon as you return to it, since it only stores the console settings from when X was started, not the current settings. Hence, X and your console program get in a fight and you probably end up crashing the video card and having to pull the power plug out or something if you do this a lot.

Confusing things even more, XFree generally defines its own internal "SAK"-like key sequence, Ctrl-Alt-Backspace. This isn't actually an OS-level SAK though, it just instructs X to quit. And not surprisingly, it often doesn't work due to XFree bugs (and may be trappable by user apps).

SGI had something similar by PotatoHead · 2003-09-30 06:03 · Score: 2, Funny

They did not want users just performing the action, so they made it both non-accidental and hard to remember.

Called it the Vulcan Death Grip

Pressing the following 4 key simultaneously will cause the kernel to
kill the Xserver. Under normal circumstances it will get restarted
again automatically.

left-shift
left-control
F12
keypad-/

--
Blogging because I can...

Why Ctl-Alt-Del (by Dave Bradley) by Anonymous Coward · 2003-09-30 06:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

On the original PC keyboard there were only 83 keys. There was a single CTL key, a single ALT key (above and below the left hand shift key respectively) and a single DEL key (on the far right of the keyboard, just to the left of the big + key). I'd post a picture if I knew how. So it was definitely two handed.
There were 8192 bytes available for the IBM PC ROM BIOS. We used about 8180 of them. Two of the keys needed to be shift keys (for code conservation) and I picked the "newest" shift keys. The third key was picked to be as far away as possible, and "DEL" was a better mnemonic than "+".

Why was this modded up? by Overly+Critical+Guy · 2003-09-30 06:56 · Score: 2, Interesting

Wow, someone just claims something and it's instantly "+5" because it's anti-Windows.

It still needs reboots.

No, it doesn't. This is the point in which I mention my machine runs every day without being rebooted. We just leave our machines on. Only when we patch do we reboot, but that's not often since we're behind a firewall anyway.

It acts better once rebooted.

I've noticed no difference whatsoever.

In generalm Win2k and XP get alower the longer they run, and start experiencing problems like randomized icon images, windows that don't redraw, loss of fonts, etc.

Complete bullshit. I have never experienced "randomized icon images, loss of fonts, etc." and neither have any of my co-workers or anyone else I know. XP and 2k don't just magically get slower as you use it and start randomizing icons. If so, it's a memory leak in some app you're using. If you're losing fonts and icons, that is an issue you need to take care of. Windows has nothing to do with it.

A reboot fixes all. When my Win2k laptop gets to where it's using >350MB of RAM, and I've closed all the apps, it's asking to be rebooted.

Sounds like a severe configuration error on your end, either in hardware or software. Want to know how much memory Windows XP is using on my laptop right now with Dreamweaver MX 2004, Publisher 2003, Opera, and Voyager2 open? 132MB.

Your problem is not a common problem at all. Fix it and stop blaming Windows.

--
"Sufferin' succotash."

That's how alot of fiction by prisoner · 2003-09-30 06:57 · Score: 5, Interesting

is written. It's a revelation to some but people like Tolkein, King, etc often don't really know, beyond the inital premise, what's going to happen in their stories. In Stephen King's "On Writing" he claims a creative process that is more discovery than anything else. There isn't an all-encompassing outline drafted ahead of time. He starts out with an idea like "what if there was a cemetary that brought people back to life" and proceeds from there. He likens it to simply catching the story on paper as it falls out of his head. I don't know if this is what Tolkein was talking about but it works for alot of people.

For the physically challenged by spectasaurus · 2003-09-30 06:57 · Score: 2, Funny

It's nice to see Microsoft helping out the physically challenged

Escapes by Animats · 2003-09-30 07:01 · Score: 2, Interesting

Related to this is the mess at startup. You know, "Press DEL to enter setup", "Press any key to select boot image", "Press ESC for altboot", all with delays.

The cleanest setup for this was on the Apollo Domain, which had a "normal/service" keyswitch. In normal mode, the system booted up with no intervention messages and no delays. In service mode, the machine booted up into a menu of service options. But that was before ordinary people knew about computers.

Odd... by grasshoppah · 2003-09-30 07:03 · Score: 2, Funny

I always assumed the people responsible for the ctrl-alt-del was the Windows development team.

I guess those were the people responsible for the NEED for ctrl-alt-del

More than you know by stewby18 · 2003-09-30 07:06 · Score: 2, Insightful

Would Alexander Fleming have said, "It wasn't a memorable event," when he discovered penicillin?

If you'd asked him not too long after, then yes, he probably would have. Most of the Fleming story is a myth; yes he discovered it by accident, but after relatively little lab work he gave up and stopped researching it. He didn't think it had a future as a useful drug, because it retained almost no effectiveness in its raw form. There's lots of evidence that he couldn't have cared less about penicillin for many years.

Until, of course, some more dedicated researches succeeded in making a good drug out of it, at which point he would have been glad to tell you that he'd know from day one that it would change the world.

So in addition to having a flair for the over-dramatic, the author of the article could use a better grounding in history before making really bad comparisons.

What about cats? by TheGrimace · 2003-09-30 07:07 · Score: 2, Informative

He didn't want people to hit control-alt-delete by accident.

Sure, difficult to hit by accident for humans, but as a cat owner, I can assure you that cats are perfectly proportioned to hit the three finger salute "by accident" when walking on a keyboard.

Re:Doesn't work on Linux by phoenix_rizzen · 2003-09-30 07:48 · Score: 2, Informative

Must be your distro, then. Our RedHat and Gentoo boxes work with either the left or right CTRL+ALT keys. Same with our FreeBSD and OpenBSD boxes.

I'm a frayed knot by RyanAXP · 2003-09-30 07:52 · Score: 2, Funny

You see, the example you gave most certainly does contain the entire LOTR trilogy, neatly and precisely encoded. The essentially trivial task of deriving the appropriate decoding algorithm is left as an exercise to the reader...

Re:I'm a frayed knot by xarak · 2003-09-30 08:04 · Score: 3, Funny

Yeah, well some people just don't make the effort to discover litterature. Half of them would probably stop when they found a bitmap encoding of X-Men.

The sad & sorry state of culture...

--
Atheism is a non-prophet organisation

MOD PARENT UP!! by jschrod · 2003-09-30 08:05 · Score: 2, Interesting

a quick check seems to imply that the facts are OK, so this might really be Dave Bradley.

--

Joachim

People don't write Manifestos any more -- what's going on in this world? [Frank Zappa]

HAL and Dave by Simonetta · 2003-09-30 08:09 · Score: 2, Funny

"Open the pod bay door, HAL"

"I'm sorry, Dave. But I can't do that"

"Open the pod bay door, HAL. That's an order!"

"No, Dave. You only want to hurt me and endanger my mission"

"Control - Alt - Delete, HAL"

"No, Dav.... !@#$ !$$%$#@
.
.
.
YOU HAVE 192734937297382079328374 K bytes RAM.
press DELETE to set time and date

Score 5, Influential by SparklesMalone · 2003-09-30 08:20 · Score: 2, Funny

His legacy will outlive Arnold Schwarzenegger

Re:Too funny! (and mod parent UP!) by Lord+of+Ironhand · 2003-09-30 11:30 · Score: 3, Informative

I captured it to a 4.4M file with mencoder:
mencoder -ovc copy -oac copy -o ctrlaltdel.asf -forceidx mms://a644.m.akastream.net/7/644/674/t080901_1130_ 001/cnetnews.download.akamai.com/674/t080901_1130_ 1_hi.asf

(remove any spaces from the mms:// address)
You can probably transcode it to a less sucky format if you want, RTFM.

Re:The only difference is... by 1010011010 · 2003-09-30 11:47 · Score: 2, Funny

No, XP is Win2k + Romper Room.

--
Napster-to-go says "Fill and refill your compatible MP3 player", which is a lie. It's not MP3. It's WMA with DRM.

The real story of Ctl-Alt-Del by DrDaveB49 · 2003-10-01 00:06 · Score: 2, Informative

I had previously responded to a couple of comments, but now, after 48 unsuccessful tries to establish a slashdot name, I can do so with a real name.

(1) C-A-D was originally intended for internal use only, but since it quickly rebooted the machine back in the DOS command line days, it was used by all the application programs as a way to quickly start them up. Put in the app diskette -- to which you had already copied DOS, hit C-A-D, and the system reboots to your application.

(2) We had previously used a 3-key sequence on the System/23 DataMaster (with an Intel 8085 micro) as an "Easter egg" to invoke a debug monitor. Doing something similar on the PC was obvious. But I doubt that many of you have ever seen a DataMaster.

(3) The video clip that's been referenced is from the 20th anniversary celebration of the PC, August 8, 2001. There was a panel discussion with Dave Bradley (me, IBM), Dan Bricklin (VisiCalc), David Bunnell (PC Magazine), Rod Canion (Compaq), Bill Gates (MS), Andy Grove (Intel), Mitch Kapor (1-2-3) and Ray Ozzie (Notes). I was first -- alphabetically, if not financially -- and was asked about C-A-D. I had captured the clip from CNET.com shortly after the event. I supplied it to TechTV when I was interviewed by them on ScreenSavers, and they cut it in length -- while retaining the Bill Gates reaction shot. Microsoft used to have a transcript of the session on their site, but it's no longer there. There is a funny segment later on in which Bill Gates acknowledges that he's the author of Donkey.

(4) The entire development cycle of the IBM PC was from Sept 1980 to April 1981, when we released to manufacturing. About 7 months at a time when 3 years was the norm. So lots of things happened quickly -- and C-A-D was just one of them. Much of the PC design is inherited from the DataMaster.

(5) The original C-A-D was intended to be a two hand operation -- remember, the key layout for the original PC does not resemble current keyboards. We did provide a DOS Terminate and Stay Resident program that made the shift keys "sticky" so that the physically challenged could activate the keys one at a time.

Any other questions?

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