Germany Publishes Windows to Linux Migration Guide

Bombcar writes "This Migration Document is also available. It has details on going from WinNT to Linux/FLOSS/Samba et.al, with less detail on RedHat/Ximian/GNOME and more on SuSE/Mandrake/KDE. See Kurt's post to Samba Technical for more details."

Comments

woot!

[qewl]

Where would I be without this?!

Re:woot!

[Swift(void)]

Still on windows, no doubt

Re:woot!

[Anonymous Coward]

high/on drugs

Slow down there, Robotripper

[Anonymous Coward]

high on dxm?

woes along the way

[grosa]

my university has been testing out replacing NT/2k/2003 machines with Samba boxes, and they've hit a lot of speed bumps. It's nice to see that someone is actually documenting all the necessary steps so that doing the conversion doesn't end up being a huge beast of a project.

afaik, Samba supports even the more advanced domain controller features, but it's not all very straight-forward or intuitive. this should make the PHBs with anti-commercial-solution tin-foil hats breath a little easier. documentation goes a long ways in a managed environment.

This is great

[Rico_za]

This is exactly the kind of document you can use to convince your boss to migrate to linux. It has migration strategies, and even looks at the economic implications. Great job!

Re:This is great

[cluckshot]

I would say more! This document should be copied to your hard drive and spread out to the world

After reading about 85 of the 400+ pages, I believe that keeping MS is for the stupid only. The long and the short of it is that MS stuff will have to be migrated every few years to the latest expensive release from MS while Linux stuff seems to be adjusted better over time.

Serve this one to your politicians!

my guide

[Anonymous Coward]

1) wipe the hard drive 20 times
2) get refund from microsoft
3) unlearn everything you thought you knew
4) read, read, read
5) install the penguin
6) read, read, read
7) tinker, tinker,tinker
8) convert others ;)
9) goto step 1
10) pay the SCO guys ...

Re:my guide

[Anonymous Coward]

phew, good thing 10 can never be reached.

Re:my guide

[Anonymous Coward]

1) relocate your linux to the trash can 2) get rid of all computers 3) wipe drive 50 times 4) die

Re:my guide

[JamesOfTheDesert]

4) read, read, read

4a) Have spouse tell you the kids have started grade school

5) install the penguin
6) read, read, read

6a) Have spouse tell you the kids have started High School

7) tinker, tinker,tinker

7a) Have college-bound kids tell you that your spouse has left you.

Re:my guide

[madpierre]

2) get refund from microsoft

Has anybody actually tried and succeeded at this?

My laptop came pre-installed with XP home edition which I never
even booted into. I wiped the drive and installed SuSE.

I still have all the MS supplied CD's unopened and unwanted.
How do I get a refund?

Re:my guide

[Anonymous Coward]

there was an article a while back were some guy went to small claim court against microsoft with the intent of winning a judgment based on the license agreement. his theory was that the shrink wrap license hold microsofts name and not the persons who sold him the laptop's so they were liable. he futher stated that because of the work he does with open source and such that he couldn't adbide to the license as writen. and then he stated that even thought the oem software sold for around $100 that an ordinary person couln't buy just the software and licences for that price. he supported it buy asaking at microsoft and the place that made the laptop to have them refunds the money for the os claiming they owed him $200 (full price) they said the oem software was only worth somethingin the neiborhood of $25 or so. then he asked to purchase 10 copies of it and was told that was impossible and he would have to pay full price.

armed with all this well documented files and letter to supporrt himeself. he went to small claim ourt to claim money from microsoft (the full price of windows 2000 pro) and they failed to show up. the judge awarded a sumery judgment for the full price and i believe it cannot be appealed.

at the time i read the article he said that he has yet to actually colect from the judgement but the process was already started and he should soon be hearing something about it.

Re:my guide

[dcmeserve]

The astute reader will of course notice that you can never get to step 10...

Re:my guide

[wideBlueSkies]

>>Have college-bound kids tell you that your spouse has left you

And the worst part is that after the divorce proceedings, she'll most likely get a cut of your salary, which you've earned by doing all that reading and tinkering.

wbs.

Re:my guide

[Anonymous Coward]

The astute reader will of course notice that you can never get to step 10...

This is /., subtle jokes are considered harmful.

The IDA Open Source Migration Guidelines

[jsinnema]

The IDA Open Source Migration Guidelines

Re:The IDA Open Source Migration Guidelines

[danimo]

(Tiny rant about the EU guide following:)

I read both quite carefully, the EU as as well as the German one and I came to the following conclusion:

The EU one does not:

• go in-depth
• contain retability calculations (which points out a very significant strength of OSS: the price)
• is mostly a (quite incomplete) listing of solutions, especially in the groupware or database area (Kolab, SAB-DB?)

Another important aspect of the German migration guide was that it always kept the comparison to the "continuing migration" which shows the trade-offs and advantages of OSS migration and thus gives a balanced picture. I can't really blame the EU guide for this, since it simply didn't have this goal.

But I think there is a very significant point of critisism left: The German migration guide had co-authors from experts (see co-authors section in the PDF for reference), which ensures that the descriptions are more in-depth and exploit all features of new version (This is very important for Samba for example. The EU guide is more a list of applications with features listed "as advertised". The EU left out Debian completely. While I am not a Debian zealot, I know of quite some successful migrations to Debian and the German migration guide acknowledges this. It doesn't take a RHAS or SLES to migrate to Linux!

Re:The IDA Open Source Migration Guidelines

[Anonymous Coward]

What is retability?

available?

[Boiling_point_]

This Migration Document is also avilable.

That PDF you mean? Not after just ten comments are posted about it to /., it isn't!

Migration = Salvation

[heironymouscoward]

Not in any religious sense, but just from the tedium of managing a PC park.

Like many techies, I help friends and family with their PCs. I've started saying, "it's Linux or nothing", and we install a nice distro like Xandros or Knoppix on the PCs. No device problems, no viruses or spywarez, no calls to the "help desk".

The only problem is that people are used to just switching off their machines, and don't shut down correctly. This seems to have caused a couple of machines to loose configurations. So I'm looking at using a pure CD-based install like Knoppix with a USB key for /home.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[TwistedSquare]

Surely this will also be a problem as if the USB pendrive (Im guessing thats what you mean) isnt flushed then shutting down unexpectedly might well cause corruption.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[heironymouscoward]

I believe it's related to the file systems used, and I think (will check) that USB drives use FAT, since they are portable to various OSes. And I've tested writing to a USB drive and unplugging it, it does work reliably.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Anonymous Coward]

Like many techies, I help friends and family with their PCs. I've started saying, "it's Linux or nothing", and we install a nice distro like Xandros or Knoppix on the PCs. No device problems, no viruses or spywarez, no calls to the "help desk".

Ha! The fact that there are no more calls to the "help desk" probably means that your friends and family are no longer speaking to you after you installed a geek's wet dream of an OS on their machines.

If you want to get family and friends away from using windows then you should recommend they use macs. Nicer for them and just as nice for you.

I'll post this as AC since it'll probably be modded down as flamebait.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Anonymous Coward]

How about the problem where they can't install that new Quicken version they just bought at wal*mart ?

Re:Migration = Salvation

[lgftsa]

USB drives are block devices(512bytes/block for the few I've used) and can be treated like any block device. They usually appear as SCSI disks(/dev/sda, etc) and have partitions(/dev/sda1, etc) which can be fdisk'ed, mkfs'ed and mounted with whatever filesystem you care to use.

I usually use vfat for compatibility, ext2 for deliberate incompatibility, or a raw device/partition for a bestcrypt container.

Even though modern [USB|IDE]/FLASH bridge chips use tricks to spread writes across cells(to stop bits wearing out too fast), I also mount them nomtime,noatime to reduce writes. Oh, and ext3(or any journaling fs) is a good way to prematurely wear them out, too.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Hektor_Troy]

The only problem is that people are used to just switching off their machines, and don't shut down correctly.

How about using APM and make the power button shut the system down properly? It can't be that hard to do, can it?

Re:Migration = Salvation

[grosa]

i did this as well, and it worked out great. i got my folks to use linux/kde for about 8 months, and then when it came time for hardware upgrades, they decided running unix at home was a great idea, but they bought an iMac instead of upgrading the PC.

can't say I blame them, while PC Unix was great because they didn't get viruses and I could do software upgrades and minor fixes remotely (they have DSL), it meant that they were entitled to pester me about it as much as they wanted. I got pestered a lot with questions like "How do I do X like I used to in Windows?", and lots of times the answer was "well... you don't"

it's particularly bad with more savvy users because they have their pet software titles, and often the open-source equivalents have very different interfaces, or just different enough for them to shun it.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[heironymouscoward]

Macs would be fine except the "would you install my PC" part is inevitably preceded by "would you help me buy a really cheap PC".

And it's just so convenient to take an old unused box from somewhere and put Linux on it.

And there are few complaints because it just works. Surf the net, do some hotmail, check some porn sites, maybe write a letter in OOo. That's the most that a lot of people use their PCs for.

A Mac would be complete and total overkill.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Spy Hunter]

You can set it up so that the power button does a proper shutdown instead of immediately cutting the power. Some distros do that by default.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[ultrabot]

Surf the net, do some hotmail, check some porn sites, maybe write a letter in OOo.

Don't forget P2P and listening to MP3. Both are adequately covered in Linux. Perhaps even better, because of the more powerful TCP/IP stack.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it warn about the dangers of using KDE as the desktop. It's important to bear in mind that you are unable to write closed-source software for the KDE without paying $3000 PER DEVELOPER WORKING IN YOUR APP, to Trolltech, up front -- and this is just for the priviledge of using the toolkit, not for tools etc. This makes it more expensive than Microsoft Windows!

It's important this kind of information is made clear.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[ultrabot]

How about the problem where they can't install that new Quicken version they just bought at wal*mart ?

Wal*mart will surely take back the copy.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Ed Avis]

If 'just switching off' causes problems because of disk corruption, you could try ext3 with data=journal. This makes sure that _everything_ is committed to the journal as soon as it's written. Another way of looking at it is a 'no lies' property - if the operating system says to the application that the write completed then you know it did complete and isn't just sitting as dirty buffers waiting to be flushed. So you could switch off the machine immediately the 'save' command finishes. (This assumes your hard disk isn't doing its own slightly dishonest buffering, of course.)

If the corruption is caused by the applications leaving things in an inconsistent state if they don't get closed properly, then obviously no filesystem can do anything about that. Using a USB key for /home would stop the system being corrupted but still the user's files might be, and that's probably more serious.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Ed Avis]

Disk corruption due to uncommitted writes is kinda orthogonal to the filesystem used. Any filesystem can be corrupted if you write some updated blocks and leave out others. A simple filesystem like FAT might be better able to recover from corruption than a complex one, but still it is possible to corrupt a FAT filesystem with uncommitted writes. When MS-DOS 6 was introduced, many users reported disk corruption. This was not due to any bug in the OS but because smartdrv disk caching was being loaded and the users were switching off PCs before exiting applications to a command prompt (at which point smartdrv flushes writes to disk). Later MS-DOS 6.x versions turned off write-back caching in the default configuration.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Anonymous Coward]

This is not a troll, I really want to know the answer.

In what way is the Linux IP stack "more powerful", and how would that make a difference to P2P and MP3's?

Re:Migration = Salvation

[boomer_rehfield]

That's no different than them picking up CD burning software when they don't have a CD burner. User education.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Anonymous Coward]

Not if they open it.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[ultrabot]

In what way is the Linux IP stack "more powerful", and how would that make a difference to P2P and MP3's?

It's mostly a hunch, but networking on Linux seems to be faster and less resource-hungry. I don't know how much this relates to general resource consumption of the OS.

As far as P2P, it stresses the networking subsystem quite a lot. Various eDonkey clients, for example, can and will use hundreds of connections at once. And MP3 playback is intimately tied to P2P, obviously ;-).

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Anonymous Coward]

Does APM do this? I thought you needed ACPI...

Re:Migration = Salvation

[adrianbaugh]

How much of an effect does all the seeking a knoppix CD does have on the lifetime of the drive?
For PCs where the off switch is an ACPI power button you can get the system to interpret this and execute a proper shutdown, I did this on my laptop a while back, unfortunatly I've forgotten how now.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Chicane-UK]

Um yeah.. Windows XP does this too on ACPI compliant hardware?

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Dick Faze]

Perhaps even better, because of the more powerful TCP/IP stack.

Racer X, knowing he can never tell Speed that he is really his brother, nods knowingly, putting his FreeBSD disk in the trunk, and drives off into the sunset.........

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Waffle Iron]

Racer X, knowing he can never tell Speed that he is really his brother, nods knowingly, putting his FreeBSD disk in the trunk, and drives off into the sunset.........

However, Racer X didn't notice that Chim Chim and Spridle had sneaked into the trunk as well.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Anonymous Coward]

(This assumes your hard disk isn't doing its own slightly dishonest buffering, of course.)

Which it is, of course.

All this advice is useless because most hard drives today have write buffering. Your journal might not have gotten to where you think it got!

Also note we are talking metadata journaling, not data journaling.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Daniel Phillips]

The only problem is that people are used to just switching off their machines, and don't shut down correctly. This seems to have caused a couple of machines to loose configurations.

If you are running Ext3, make sure you're mounted with data=journal so you get full data journalling. My wife and I have been operating several machines for more than a year that way, without problems. Standard nighttime shutdown is, just hit the power switch. Every now and then I run a forced fsck just to be sure nothing broke, and nothing ever has.

This may come as a surprise to Andrew Morton ;-)

Re:Migration = Salvation

[dcmeserve]

(This assumes your hard disk isn't doing its own slightly dishonest buffering, of course.)

Actually, that makes me think: if the HD uncludes enough of its own cache RAM to let the OS disable its own caching, and also its own little power supply backup, it could just dump its cache out to disk as soon as it detects its "official" power has gone off, and the OS -- and the user -- don't have to worry about a damn thing. It could be marketed as the "non-corruptible" hard disk...

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Ed Avis]

Actually I was thinking of data journalling as well (ext3 with data=journal); I agree that an IDE disk may buffer writes internally and so risk losing data if power goes down, but doesn't the OS compensate for this by issuing explicit flush instructions? A more high-end disk system will store just enough charge to write dirty buffers when power fails, or otherwise ensure that when the disk says it's written it's written.

Re:Migration = Salvation

[Anonymous Coward]

and your point is...?

Google Cache to the Rescue

[robbyjo]

Here you go.

Network effect

[ultrabot]

This all is just wonderful. Public money is invested in migrating systems to Linux, and the findings are give back to the public. Each migration team will learn the lessons of the previous one. What's more, the private sector can learn from the findings and mistakes of the public sector.

This marks the beginning of a new Europe. Now we should just start teaching Python at elementary schools, and we could be kicking some serious US ass as far IT goes :-).

Re:Network effect

[ajs318]

Exactly. With Open Source, everybody benefits when anybody contributes. The dividends are shared, yet not diminished by the act of sharing.
Consider a bank paying interest at 5% and run along traditional lines, but with just three investors: Anna, Bob and Charlie. Anna invests $1000. Bob invests $200. Charlie invests $3000. A year later, they get their interest payments.
Anna receives 5% of $1000 = $50.
Bob receives 5% of $200 = $10.
Charlie receives 5% of $3000 = $150.

With a bank that worked the way Open Source works, Interest Calculations would be done more like this:
Anna has $1000. Bob has $200. Charlie has $3000.
Anna receives 5% of $4200 = $210.
Bob receives 5% of $4200 = $210.
Charlie receives 5% of $4200 = $210.

Re:Network effect

[Anonymous Coward]

And banks would be going bankrupt pretty fucking quickly if they followed your idiotic logic. Though quite frankly, the use of the word logic to describe your thought process is almost as lacking in any concept of reality as your post.

Re:Network effect

[mirko]

ith a bank that worked the way Open Source works, Interest Calculations would be done more like this:
Anna has $1000. Bob has $200. Charlie has $3000.
Anna receives 5% of $4200 = $210.
Bob receives 5% of $4200 = $210.
Charlie receives 5% of $4200 = $210.

I guess the Open Source Bank would give each of them a third of these 5%, so Anne, Bob and Charlie would get 30$ each (I'd get the remaining 120$ as a consultation fee)...

Re:Network effect

[ajs318]

It doesn't work with real money, because money gets diminished by the act of sharing. If I have to share $100 with another person, we only end up with $50 each. On the other hand, if I have a lit candle, and someone else lights another candle from it, that does not make my room any darker, yet we both have lit candles: the light is not diminished by the act of sharing.

I respectfully suggest you keep reading until you understand.

Re:Network effect

[ultrabot]

And banks would be going bankrupt pretty fucking quickly if they followed your idiotic logic.

That's because banks operate on a scarce resource (money). Knowledge/code/data is a scarce resource only artificially, and therefore sharing it increases the total amount that is available.

Obviously, this reduces the bottom line of huge corporations that charge lots of money of what should/could/is starting to be a commodity (OS and Office Suite vendors). Most of them are in the US (MSFT and SUNW), so Europe doesn't really have that much motivation to preserve their status. Europe loses nothing and gains jobs, expertise, openness and wealth.

Re:Network effect

[Anonymous Coward]

I took the red pill [python.org].

Ruby is red
Python is blue
I am high on drugs
(PENIS)
(BALLS).

Re:Network effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Or consider a bank that works the way Open Source does given the current litigious climate. Interest Calculations would be done like this:

Anna has $1000. Bob has $200. Charlie has $3000.
Anna receives 5% of $4200 = $210.
Bob receives 5% of $4200 = $210.
Charlie receives 5% of $4200 = $210.

SCO rocks up and sues Anna, Bob and Charlie and forces them to cough up their hard-earnt pennies.

Without wishing to stereotype open-source/Linux users, here is what I think would happen.

Anna can't afford to buy that new RAID controller she so desperately wanted, Bob can't get that new silent fan that would let him overclock his P4 3.0GHz up to 3.13GHz and leave his computer on overnight, and poor old Charlie has to wait another month for his employment benefits before he can afford to get his hair cut ($210 will only barely cover this).

It's a cruel world out there.

Re:Network effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Sadly for you, both France & the UK have a nice arsenal of thermonuclear weapons. Add to that the fact that a large percentage of US weapons are based on European soil, and you'd have a hard time nuking us.

So watch your fucking back, Yankee.

Re:Network effect

[Anonymous Coward]

Now we should just start teaching Python at elementary schools

Die in your own shit! Python isn't mainstream and will never be. Even Visual Basic would make more sence.

Deal with it!

Re:Network effect

[Ozan]

A better example would be the following one where interest rates are proportional to the investment:

Anna invests $1000. Bob invests $200. Charlie invests $3000.
Anna's interest rate is 1%
Bob's interest rate is 0.5%
Charlie's interest rate is 3%

Anna receives 1% of $1000 = $10.
Bob receives 0.5% of $200 = $1.
Charlie receives 3% of $3000 = $90.

If the three work the open source way and invest their money together, making it $4200 the interest rate is 4%:

Anna receives 4% of $1000 = $40.
Bob receives 4% of $200 = $8.
Charlie receives 4% of $3000 = $120.

Of course this is only a quick'n'dirty example.

Re:Network effect

[duratkin]

Look up the concept of "Social Capital". This is the result of cooperative sharing, bridging and bonding among peoples. I'm no expert, but it seems to me that the GPL is the epitome of SW social capital. Tom Merrick

Re:Network effect

[4of12]

On the other hand, if I have a lit candle, and someone else lights another candle from it, that does not make my room any darker, yet we both have lit candles: the light is not diminished by the act of sharing.

You betry your lack of experience and credentials in IT.

Anyone that's really been exposed to decision-making processes in corporate IT knows that we live in a restricted oxygen environment where 2 candles will simply kill us off twice as fast as one candle.

People coming out of meetings, blue-faced and open-mouthed gasping...

Bad for economy

[ultranova]

In my humble opinion, migrating from Windows to Linux is bad for economy. Think about it. While new versions of Windows are packed full of advanced, bleeding-edge innovations, the new Linux versions are mostly indistinguishable from each other. Or can anyone here claim that migrating from Linux 2.2 to 2.4 brought a single new icon to their desktops ? Maybe 2.6 will bring a much-needed improvement to this. Back to economy. It's a well-known fact that a healthy economy demands an increase in spending. This, in turn, requires people to buy things. If people can get what they need for free, then they don't pay, spending decreases, economy suffers, and so do people. Therefore, it's the duty of every patriotic citizen to help economy by avoiding "free" stuff. Furthermore, it's a well-known fact that Linux lasts almost forever without maintenance; there's still people running 2.2 ! Obviously, this is a bad thing for economy. With Windows, there's the healthy drive to update every few years, followed by an equally healthy drive to update your hardware as well. Besides, think about it - the biggest Linux distributor is REDhat ! Now what does that remind us of ? That's right - when you're downloading Linux, you're downloading Communism !

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Therefore, it's the duty of every patriotic citizen to help economy by avoiding "free" stuff.

hahaha...

With Windows, there's the healthy drive to update every few years

HAHAHAHA...

You're a funny person. Really. I'm afraid your economy is fscked then!

Re:Bad for economy

[arcanumas]

Thank you for opening my eyes! How could i have been so blind all those years!
I am deleting my Linux partition and i am buying WindowsXP as we speak.
I too want to take spending away from trivial items and spend all my money for WindowsXP.

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

In my humble opinion, migrating from Windows to Linux is bad for economy

Hello reality calling!

The German government is helping people migrate. SuSE is German. Microsoft is not German. People using a product made by a German company is good for the German economy.

Re:Bad for economy

[markbeal]

Communist states are well known for their drive to impose their will on the populace and to stifle any competition through fair means or foul (remind you of anyone?). If you want freedom, download Linux.

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Rubbish. Your lack of understanding of how open source really works is matched only by a poor grasp of economics. Open source is a bit more than a bunch of folks giving stuff away like someone sharing mp3 files on Kazaa. I'd suggest doing some research, perhaps starting with an investigation into who pays the salary of the that Linus guy. And why.

As for your statement that "a healthy economy depends [on] an increase in spending," consider what could happen if the tens of billions in annual revenue earned annually by one company (Microsoft) were re-directed elsewhere. I doubt there's a republican ideologue alive today (you know, the kind who religeously believes that the cure to any economic problem is a giant tax cut) who wouldn't salivate over the possibilities of such a scenario. For the rest of us, the dual prospects of innovation and employment wouldn't hurt.

Re:Bad for economy

[Pius II.]

Well, buying a system from the "Gesellschaft fur Software- und System-Entwicklung" is certainly better for the German economy than sending money to Redmond, thankyouverymuch.
Plus, all our CS students are trained on Linux, so there are plenty of Linux-savvy folks around here. Who will get paid for _developing_ stuff (on the Linux platform), instead of making money by holding companies hostage.

Re:Bad for economy

[Ralph Yarro]

Therefore, it's the duty of every patriotic citizen to help economy by avoiding "free" stuff.

Indeed! I'm glad you brought this up, because the REAL damage to the economy is being done by people using supposedly "free" air instead of buying proprietary Canopy canned air. I thikn a lot of people have no idea how many jobs are being lost over this.

But it's even worse than you may imagine. When people do use our proprietary canned air, some of it can leak into the atmosphere and mix with so-called-free air. That's right, the atmosphere of the entire planet is a derivative of our product, and people are not paying licenses to use it.

If you ever breathe then please respect our IP rights and pay our one time $699 license fee and we promise to almost definitely not bring any legal action over this against you in the future.

I ask you, do providers of "free" air indemnify you against this sort of action?

Re:Bad for economy

[MatrixBandit]

Wow. "Spending is good for the economy."
Well thank you for the lesson in capitalism.

Just a few problems with your short essay though.
First of all, these "bleeding-edge innovations" you're so very fond of don't exactly have the greatest track record for reliability, stability, and last but not least security. Of course none of these things are an issue if you're only concerned with the pretty pictures on your desktop called icons, and yes I'm sure all of us in the linux community eagerly await the nifty new icons that we hope will be on our desktops with the release of 2.6.

Second of all, if people get what they need for free, especially when refering to the basic essential core functions of a business (like a functioning network that doesn't have to be patched every 10 minutes), they then have more money to invest in ... oh say, silly things like customer service, advertising, food for their families, more employees. I personally would like to see ALOT MORE MONEY finding its way to THESE places, than back to Microsoft so they can crank out more "bleeding-edge" crap for us to throw our money away on. A much needed trend in our currently monopolized state.

But hey what do I know...

Re:Bad for economy

[JohnHans]

Your humble opinion has no basis in economic fact. The money not spent on WindowsXP doesn't disappear. It means lower taxes when a government uses open source and more dollars in the hands of the citizens. For a business it means larger profits ...which the last time I looked was the goal of business. And again those profits can be re-invested or distributed to the stock holders. No matter how you paint it, from an economic standpoint, using Linux and not spending on Windows XP makes economic sense.

Re:Bad for economy

[Pike65]

If you were a true convert you'd buy 95, 98, 2k and then XP. As it stands I don't think you're trying hard enough . . .

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Hello reality calling!

Umm.. I think he was joking. You know, "It's funny, laugh" ?

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Rubbish. Your lack of understanding of how open source really works is matched only by a poor sense of humor. It is a joke. Read again...

Re:Bad for economy

[adrianbaugh]

Why would people put icons in the kernel? (Well, other than the Tux boot logo..)
I suggest you try tunning a distribution from 2 or 3 years ago, maybe Red Hat 6, and then comparing that with Red Hat 9. Or the equivalent Mandrake numbers or whatever else. There is a huge difference.

Oh. Sorry. I have been trolled, I have lost :)

Re:Bad for economy

[gnu-generation-one]

"In my humble opinion, migrating from Windows to Linux is bad for economy."

(a) jobs gain for linux experts to do the transition

(b) productivity gain from using reliable software

(c) reduction in worms and viruses, which are routinely quoted as costing billions of dollars to the economy

It's not just about box-prices, and as to the people running around fixing Windows systems, that's wasted time, not productive time.

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

oh, but you haven't even touched the core of the issues yet! think about all those people breathing out the Canopy canned air!! since the human body only uses a small fraction of the oxygen (which itself is a small fraction of the total) in the canned air, most of it is then recklessly poured into the so-called 'free air'. it's not merely a derivative product, it is the product!

not even mentioning the Canopy bottled water ...

=)

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

amazing how many people missed it - the sad /. landscape ...

it's a bloody joke, people! laugh, ignore it or go see a laughter therapist!

Re:Bad for economy

[malsdavis]

Expensive commerical software is an unnessicary cost for businesses that hurts the economy. If businesses did not have to plough as much money into buying new software for all their computers they would have much more money to use for other far better economy growth inducing items like wages, cheaper products and expansion.

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Dude, you're irony detector is fucking broken.

Re:Bad for economy

[Zenikase]

Hello, sarcasm. Have we met before?

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

You make excellent points. I would like to add that the air we breathe is every bit as important to society as the software we use to run our computers, and yet its value is being destroyed by oxygen piracy.

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Hehe. Agreed, unfortunately some /.'ers are seriously humour impaired - Not even with some handholding (Score:5, Funny) do they realize it's supposed to be funny. Maybe Slashdot should have a Funny-Haha-FAQ?

Re:Bad for economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, you're right. I feel so guilty, spending money on things that are good for me and my community instead of giving it all to Microsoft so that Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer can spend it on themselves.

And I feel like such a loser for missing out on the software experience for which Microsoft products are so famous.

Thank you, thank you for showing me the light.

Re:Bad for economy

[ultranova]

For those of you who took this seriously, I must apologize. I recently ran across a trolling guide for Slashdot, and just had to try it out. Yes, gentle reader - my orignal message was a (lame attempt to) troll.

I have to wonder, thought. Didn't that reference to Communism make you the least bit suspicious ?-) Or that absurd and nonsensical icon claim, for that matter ?

The sad part is that an article making similar claims about the economy was was in a Finnish newspaper Ilta-Sanomat last summer.

Re:Bad for economy

[bmike78]

I never thought about it this way...

I always thought that Linux was like a friend.. you know, you help me out (free OS) and I'll help you out (open source contributions).

I should have learned like everyone else that you can trust M$. They do have that Trustworthy Computing Initiative to back up that they can be trusted... They work very close with all the virus companies so that when I do get a virus, I can remove it and then patch all of my machines. I like that they are very proactive once the virus spreads.

You can also help the economy by laying off half of your company. That way disgruntled employees can complain to M$ all they want that you have unlicensed copies of the software. Little to they know that you only bought half of what you needed originally and the half of company is now gone, so you have just the right amount of licenses now :)

M$ is very close to releasing Office (whatever year it is) pretty soon. I took a look at their product line. InfoPath and OneNote look promising, but I have no clue what they do. They help my company by doing stuff that I don't have to, so that I can make money or something...

I'm off to my meeting with the Underpants Gnomes (ref. South Park) to get approval for all these new programs.

Step 1: buy M$ products

Step 3: PROFIT!!

Re:Bad for economy

[zzleeper]

Actually, any decent economist can tell you that what you describe is wrong. Apparently, economics will suffer, but in practice efficience will improve. Everyone will pay lower costs for their software, business and individuals would use the money they save (by using open source) in other stuff like cars, hardware, etc. Economics teachers often use this example to describe your point. "The economy is in a slowdown, and glass and windows (windows in the real world) makers propose that we should all start throwing stones to the windows so they will break. When they break, ppl will spend more, windows companies will hire more people, and we would all be better"

Re:Bad for economy

[Russ Nelson]

I see that you are a fan of Bastiat.
-russ

Re:Bad for economy

[Russ Nelson]

w00t! w00t! You have saved The Angry Economist from having to refute this economic nonsense. Of course, he was being sarcastic, so all we really know about his real message is what it isn't. That's the trouble with using sarcasm -- you're saying what you don't believe in the hopes that somebody will understand what you really believe.
-russ

biased?

[Anonymous Coward]

with less detail on RedHat/Ximian/GNOME and more on SuSE/Mandrake/KDE

what if the user(s) wanted to migrate to a Debian based system running icewm?

however you look at it, this still limits the users migration options..

Re:biased?

[Nighttime]

Coo, imagine that. Germany, a country in Europe, pushing its home-grown distribution and that of a neighbouring country. Such shocking behaviour!

Re:biased?

[Anonymous Coward]

Coo, imagine that. Germany, a country in Europe, pushing its home-grown distribution and that of a neighbouring country.

And let's face it, although you say "neighbouring country", France is essentially just a province of Germany anyway so this should come as no surprise to anyone.

Re:biased?

[boomer_rehfield]

then get off slashdot, write one yourself and quit wondering why no one ELSE has done it.

Re:biased?

[Anonymous Coward]

And patriotic americans are pissed and arguing that the switch is bad for (their) economy! Indeed.. SHOCKING!

Now...

[t4b00]

If we could only talk M$ into converting over....

Re:Now...

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure a few departments already have...

Re:Now...

[Mizery De Aria]

They already have

CORRECTION

[Anonymous Coward]

5) install PenisBird

Sounds like a good idea

[ajs318]

This is one massive case study, and it should be inspirational reading to anybody who has ever wondered if there was an alternative to Microsoft.

As the migration progresses in Germany, so it will be copied in many other places - and mostly without the mistakes Germany will inevitably make {though, arguably, none of them will ever come close in magnitude to actually ever letting closed-source software anywhere near their machines in the first place}. Once somebody with some real clout has made a hard commitment to GNU/Linux on the desktop, then we will see real change.

I wish every success to all who choose to wrest back the control of their destiny from the hands of the evil corporations. Theirs will not be an easy journey. I, too, have a little experience of what they must be facing; and yet, my humble effort - to do without Windows at any price, even if that prevented me from using a computer at all - just seems so insignificant compared to Germany's task.

I'm also more than a little humbled at realising I don't know how to say "Good luck!" in German.

Re:Sounds like a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

"Good Luck!" translated to German: "Tretet den M$'lern ordentlich in den Arsch und seht zu das eure Euro's EURE Euro's bleiben."

Re:Sounds like a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

"Tretet den M$'lern ordentlich in den Arsch und seht zu das eure Euro's EURE Euro's bleiben."

Quite right but not the exact translation.

"Good Luck!" == "Viel Gluck!"

Re:Sounds like a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if you know how to say "Good luck!" in German, you wouldn't be able to type it...

"Viel Gluck!"

Re:Sounds like a good idea

[Sique]

No. Gluck was an bohemian-austrian composer. There is nothing to say against "viel Gluck" per se, but you are surely meaning: "Viel Glueck". The u-umlaut gets transcribed to 'ue' if not available, according to the Duden (german official orthography), Vol I pp. 105.

Re:Sounds like a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know how to say "Good luck!" in German.

Viel Glueck! (It should really have an umlaut by Slashdot isn't non-english friendly)

Re:Sounds like a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

Haven't laughed that much for a long time :-) Anyway, - good luck is "Viel Gl\"uck!" in German - sorry, - but Slashdot isn't very Umlaut-friendly, so we have to do it in LaTeX style..

Re:Sounds like a good idea

[Anonymous Coward]

I am not German, but 'das' should be 'dass' and be preceded by a comma.

I'll post this one as an AC because correcting German grammar *really* makes me look like a Grammar-Nazi (entschueldigung).

Never satisfied...

[lpret]

with less detail on RedHat/Ximian/GNOME and more on SuSE/Mandrake/KDE.

You're never satisfied are you? "Geez, RedHat/Ximian/GNOME is so much better, I can't believe they wasted their time on S/M/K..." It's linux -- better yet, it's not Microsoft. So just be happy people are looking at open source, even if it's not your particular brew.

Works for me except for

[OffTheLip]

US tax preparation software, ie, Turbo Tax (shudders) or similar. There's not much else I can't do now with Linux.

Re:Works for me except for

[Anonymous Coward]

[ No ... tax preparation software ]

Just return your tax forms on paper, like I do.
It can't be too long before the IRS gets so
fed up with the paper stuff that they have
to allocate real live humans for to read, that
they'll offer tax preparation software on free
software.

Re:Works for me except for

[Anonymous Coward]

try HRBlock.com; they cost about the same as turbotax and they work online, so I did my last one with Mozilla in Mandrake. You do have to do a paper filing with them the first year, but after that you can be online forever.

Re:Works for me except for

[Anonymous Coward]

I used a web based one last year. Don't remember who's, but it worked fine. I kept looking until I found one that worked with mozilla.

Derek (from Canada)

Why not...

[Anonymous Coward]

"It has details on going from WinNT to Linux/FLOSS/Samba et.al, with less detail on RedHat/Ximian/GNOME and more on SuSE/Mandrake/KDE.

Why has neither RH nor SuSE ever published "Migration Guides" before Germany did? Oh, maybe they have and they are called "user's manual." It is interesting that the German Gov. is so eager to promote OSS. They must hate MS monopoly.

Maybe we will see another "migration guide" soon published by our good friend SCO.

Re:Why not...

[Elektroschock]

Nobody hates Microsoft exept some fanatics. However in order to secure freesom of its citizens there has to OS competition as so much depends on OS. Just consider an official bachdoor would be used in business espionage. Closed Source is not usable in security related areas of Government. the risk is too high.

less detail on RedHat/Ximian/GNOME and more on SuS

[Anonymous Coward]

...less detail on RedHat/Ximian/GNOME and more on SuSE/Mandrake/KDE.

Well, SuSE is german after all.

Re:morons publish hostage to participant migration

[BoogleBoo]

http://zapatopi.net/afdb.html

boosts open source culture

[leiprecht]

One thing is clear, the majority of machine to be migrated are servers of some sort... most of the WKS will stay on Windows. This will encourage more and more programmers to invest time in open source projects. As a result, it will catapult development into new heights....
great move...
but it wouldn't wipe M$ from the planet...
A dreamer, who thinks so...
and a dangerous one on top of it (economically)...

Re:boosts open source culture

[bninja_penguin]

but it wouldn't wipe M$ from the planet...

No, but it's a start. We are just seeing the begining of the "snowball" effect. It starts out small, but starts growing exponentially. If the U.S. doesn't watch it, it will be the little cartoon house at the bottom of the Alps, with a snowball 5 times its size bearing down on it at an unstoppable pace. Germany, Brasil, other Latin American countries, the E.U....
Hopefully the U.S. won't get bought and paid for too soon, or it will become the world's Former Super-Power.

Windows doesn't like it that much better

[Kjella]

No device problems, no viruses or spywarez, no calls to the "help desk".

The only problem is that people are used to just switching off their machines, and don't shut down correctly. This seems to have caused a couple of machines to loose configurations.

Windows machines have enough issues as it is, without the users making it worse. "Crashing" Windows on purpose on each shutdown is bound to create trouble in the long run. It's simply a matter of habit, it doesn't take more than a few seconds to shut it down through the menus. I assume they don't have soft-power off buttons, those shut down windows normally, or should at least...

Kjella

Re:Windows doesn't like it that much better

[vigilology]

They should just have a desktop or taskbar icon that does a clean shutdown. I remember doing this by calling some .exe with a load of parameters. Alternatively, they could use APM (I think) so that when they hard press the power button on the front of the computer, MSWin does a clean shutdown instead of a forced hardware stop.

This paper is long overdue

[BillsPetMonkey]

The core of the problem with Linux is it's PR. There's this gulf of understanding between us tecchies and the people who make "really important" decisions.

The number of times our company (large retail group) has tripped up because of decisions based on convincing salespeople rather than technical merit make for shameful reading.

This document has a stamp of officialdom though. Better still, a government stamp! Written by bureaucrats for bureaucrats! Yippee!

There will be a copy on my Director's desk Monday. Whether I can get him to read it is another matter. But that's a different battle. I imagine there's a few UK government bureaucrats swotting up using this document too. I'm amazed and rather humbled that it's written in English as well!

Re:This paper is long overdue

[camiel]

Good heavens, it's an impressive document indeed. These German taxpayers get value for money from their government.

Re:This paper is long overdue

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

Yeah - f*ck migration to Linux; lets just all adopt German governments!

Re:This paper is long overdue

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

...actually, haven't they done something like that in California?

stop the conversion!

[golgotha007]

i don't understand why all the linux folks want the mainstream public converted over to linux!

i like the fact that because i run linux, i have more capability than the average windows joe.
i like the fact that i am part of a technical movement that helps each other in times of need (newsgroups, forums).
i like the fact that when my rights are threatened or otherwise, that it's this same group of folks that stand together (SCO?).

one of the things that MS doesn't have is the 'comminuty closeness' that *nix users have.
this closeness is why linux innovation is an par with the biggest software company in the world.

i'm afraid that if linux were to ever win the desktop war, this closeness and community won't be as friendly or as helpful.

sure, we embrace IBM now, but for how long? you do realize that the way we feel about MS is similar to the way our fathers felt about IBM in the 70's.

Re:stop the conversion!

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about?

Re:stop the conversion!

[ajs318]

I think it's a reference to a music scene phenomenon that begain in the late 1980s / early 1990s, when a whole lot of bands got "discovered" almost at once; and ended just after the "rock and pop" section in record stores became "rock, pop and indie". All of a sudden, people stopped liking bands just because they'd been on Top of the Pops, and it was back to business as usual.

Not liking something just because other people like it is hardly any different than liking something because other people like it. You're still a fashion victim.

And anyway, the system fights against those it considers rebels by assimilating them, albeit in a rather watered-down, sanitised fashion. Late 1960s - rebellious men start growing their hair long. Early 1970s - respectable men start growing their hair long. Result: long hair now not rebellious!

Re:stop the conversion!

[digitalhermit]

I don't have time, that's why I'm using Linux. Whether or not Linux or Windows is easier to use for first time computer users is irrelevant; I know that I can get things done much faster in front of a Linux box than anything from Microsoft. Practical, always.

But then there's the philosophy. I really love the idea of sharing knowledge, sharing information. Luckily, the free (speech) software movement, the community, the openness doesn't impede the practicality.

I remember the early days of the Net. There were a bunch of folks who complained, like you are doing now about the growth of Linux, that all these newbies and aolusers and top-posters and suchlike folks would be the death of the Community. It would become another social club or some sort of virtual mall. Yup. They were right. But without the Internet, without the influx of millions of users, Linux itself would have remained a curious (but cool) little experiment, perhaps useful to a few thousand users at most. You can debate this if you want, but I'll stand by it.

But I really wanted to talk about practicality. For all my writings about Free Software being a revolution for the people, I'm still a practical guy. If I don't have to explain Linux to a co-worker and can just pull up his OpenOffice spreadsheet it makes things easier for me. If I can hop over to CompUSA to pick up TurboTax for Linux and install it without messing with Wine or VMWare or a dual boot then it's easier for me. If I pick up another laptop and don't have to go through the trouble of deleting Windows then installing Linux it's easier for me.

And yes, I enjoy this feeling of being a holder of some arcane knowledge about this rogue operating system. It feels good to tell others that, yes, I've been using Linux since the .99 kernel days and that I remember downloading floppies to install Linux. But I'd look pretty foolish if it was more work to use Linux. It would be an ecentricity, like the fountain pen that I carry around on occasion, that's just not practical in the real world.

That's my rant.

Re:stop the conversion!

[IamTheRealMike]

i don't understand why all the linux folks want the mainstream public converted over to linux!

It's fun, we like Linux and want other people to be able to enjoy it as much as we do, more users == more apps == more users etc

i like the fact that because i run linux, i have more capability than the average windows joe.

Running Linux should not be a status symbol, period. If you want the respect of your peers, if you want to be seen as "elite" then learn to hack code - THAT is the right way to demonstrate technical capability, not simply knowing how to use the command line.

i like the fact that i am part of a technical movement that helps each other in times of need (newsgroups, forums). i like the fact that when my rights are threatened or otherwise, that it's this same group of folks that stand together (SCO?).

Those things won't disappear, even if one day everybody in the world uses Linux. The free software developer community is strong because of the shared experiences of building things together. It doesn't matter how many users you have, that shared experience is still there.

Of course the distinction between user and developer will become greater, but this is a natural progression.

one of the things that MS doesn't have is the 'comminuty closeness' that *nix users have.

*nix (god I hate that stupid term) users have no community. Sorry, that's just bollocks. There are all kinds of Solaris, AIX, Tru64 users all over the world who couldn't give a rats ass about what's happening beyond their office door as long as the paycheque comes in on time.

There is a free software community, and it centers around Linux - don't confuse the fact that Linux is roughly based on UNIX with the community aspects. The word "community" comes from Latin, "cum munere." "Munere" is "to give," and "cum" is "among each other," so, community means "to give among each other."

As long as people share what they make, there will be a community. It has nothing to do with what command shell you run, never forget that. It has nothing to do with how many people use what is built - the community will always be made up of the subset that share with each other.

i'm afraid that if linux were to ever win the desktop war, this closeness and community won't be as friendly or as helpful.

There are friendly and helpful communities of Windows users. They are called friends and family. Of course there are organized groups too, such as Protonic which is similar to our LinuxQuestions.org site.

Basically I think you worry too much. As long as there are people who care about sharing with each other, the community will remain strong, regardless of how much it grows.

Re:stop the conversion!

[gunix]

I think it's good to force people to use Linux.
Then they will be so upset with things not working so they will start to get a life instead of sitting online 10h/day !
That is really a good thing!

If I were forced to switched to windows, I'd give up on computers....

Re:stop the conversion!

[Jameth]

I think that your missing part of the reason this closeness exists in Linux and not in Windows.

With Linux, the community controls the product, so the community has reason to care about the product.

With Windows, if they make a decision you don't like, you just cope.

This means that Windows help==learning how to use what they give you while Linux help==learning how to find what you want to use.

This is the difference which will not go away, thanks to the GPL.

Re:stop the conversion!

[rd4tech]

*one of the things that MS doesn't have is the 'comminuty closeness' that *nix users have. this closeness is why linux innovation is an par with the biggest software company in the world* I disagree, me and my fellow window users would get together and discuss how windows sucs, where did it crashed and why it went down destroying everything in the process, then we would inovate (i.e.) talk about which sofwtware to pay, how much is it, bitch a bit about it.. etc etc.. to prevent that happening again. Mind you, some people are even crying over lost data so there's your closeness with the machine. See, we got both point :)

Re:stop the conversion!

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with most of what you have to say.

But I too would not like to see Linux as the mainstream OS. Windows works well for that area, and Linux deserves its own little sandbox. If Linux ever gets to the state Windows is today (which I doubt it ever will, as the core components are hacker-driven, and I'll probably be able to use Linux + GNU tools + X for a very long time), I may end up switching to BSD or even a commercial Unix.

Look at the state of Windows today. Particularly, some of the applications. So many people boast about Windows and its vast application space, but the truth is 99% of Windows apps are crap. Poorly written, ill behaved, crap.

I've seen a lot of Linux apps like this. But at least the platform overall is pretty decent, clean, and the application space not as polluted as on Windows.

Look at your typical Windows box with your typical Windows applications. You have programs like TurboTax rewriting your MBR and all sorts of stuff installing spyware. I don't want that to happen to Linux!

Re:stop the conversion!

[debest]

And I don't understand this why you need this l33t mentality of yours. Because by the content of your post, the desire to somehow hold your use of Linux over the "normal" crowd as being something to be proud of is the only valid reason you have for not wanting to see more widespread use.

i like the fact that because i run linux, i have more capability than the average windows joe.
Fine, I accept that. I suggest you move on to the BSDs if you want to preserve your feelings of superiority. Or, even better, make some contributions to projects.

i like the fact that i am part of a technical movement that helps each other in times of need (newsgroups, forums).
As long as the code is open, and people are free to invent and contribute, that will always be there. If the existing newbies haven't killed this, nothing will.

i like the fact that when my rights are threatened or otherwise, that it's this same group of folks that stand together (SCO?).
Quite the opposite, there will only be more of the group that will stand together. Isn't this a good thing?

Look, there will always be "fringe" and bleeding edge things to do on Linux, even if it were to ever dominate the PC world. It's the nature of OSS: you can't tell anyone not to do what they want to do, regardless of what everyone else is doing. So you will always have new and cool things to play with in Linux. You just won't be able to laud it over your friends by saying "I use Linux! You use Windoze? LUSER!"

Compare this to the real advantages of a mass conversion of users away from Microsoft:

- less effective virus epidemics (due to more OS diversity)
- fewer locked-in file formats (if vendors don't assume you use Windows, they can't ignore you)
- reduced cost for software apps (if viable, legal alternatives are commonly used by a great many users, existing apps become cheaper to compete)
- less spending on software by business, leading to more profit and/or cheaper product prices for companies. Sure, it's bad for one industry (proprietary software developers), but good for everyone else.

So, in conclusion, "continue the conversion!"

Re:stop the conversion!

[golgotha007]

And I don't understand this why you need this l33t mentality of yours.

look, i make a lot of money because there aren't many linux developers in comparison to windows certified folks.

I suggest you move on to the BSDs if you want to preserve your feelings of superiority. Or, even better, make some contributions to projects.

i don't need to use any of the BSDs. linux does exactly what i want, and if it doesn't, then i can make it act/feel exactly the way i please.
contributions? i maintain 2 sourceforge projects.

You just won't be able to laud it over your friends by saying "I use Linux! You use Windoze? LUSER!"

hehe, too late for that. most of my 'windows friends' have already been converted by yours truly.

however, i do agree that more linux users will mean less open file formats and reduced costs for proprietary software, so your post wasn't a completely wasted effort.

Re:stop the conversion!

[Idou]

"sure, we embrace IBM now, but for how long? you do realize that the way we feel about MS is similar to the way our fathers felt about IBM in the 70's."

And if MS ever were to change the way IBM has, we would embrace them, as well. These are corporations, not people. Though slow and clumsy, theoretically only the name stays the same over time.

We are fighting a war of ideals, not companies or people.

Btw, regardless of how many people switch to Linux, the knowledge that you have gained over the years will always give you an advantage and allow you to connect on a different level with other advanced users. The community wont change overall . . . we will just gain more followers ;)

Re:stop the conversion!

[debest]

Sorry to have misread your position, but really, you never did make any point (that made sense) as to WHY you seem to feel that more conversion of PC users to Linux is a bad thing. Especially if you develop software for Linux! Far from bringing "competition", veteren Linux developers will be even more sought after if more people and companies adopt it. You should be the biggest cheerleader for more OSS adoption!

You've agreed with my positive consequences, and not disagreed with my points arguing your position. Have you changed your mind?

Re:stop the conversion!

[whereiswaldo]

i don't understand why all the linux folks want the mainstream public converted over to linux!

I can't believe some people still hold this viewpoint. Linux usability, stability, and usefullness has improved several times over from 5 years ago at least in part because it has reached a critical mass in mindshare. I would like to see more people use and support Linux.

In fact, I think it is critical that more people use Linux, as many hardware vendors still seem shy about supporting it. With more supportive hardware vendors, you have more pressure against those who don't yet support Linux.

Re:stop the conversion!

[dcmeserve]

i like the fact that because i run linux, i have more capability than the average windows joe.

You don't have extra capability merely because you run linus -- you have it because you *know* stuff. This would be true even if 100% of computers ran linux. Your average joe would just stick with all the default settings and whatever window manager does the most babysitting. Anyone who bothers to look behind the scenes, use the more advanced-but-estoteric interfaces, etc. will still be among the "l33t".

Re:stop the conversion!

[Anonymous Coward]

huh huh. he said "cum". huh huh.

Re:They didn't migrate yet...

[presroi]

Hi, indeed, this seems confusing..

please re-read this post again:

Oh, and even if the PDF is saying it was produced
from MS Windows with the help of PDFmaker -- be assured that the original
document was written with the help of OpenOffice.org. vlendec should be
able to confirm this, since he is also one of the authors... ) ;-)

Re:you won't need a tin hat either

[Anonymous Coward]

If you only had a brain...

Something tells me....

[TygerFish]

Something tells me that laxative sales in Redmond have just plummeted!

Re:Something tells me....

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. It smells, too...

And so do you!

Misleading intro

[Ur@eus]

However posted this story should have his head examined. Its is both mixing facts about two different articles and turning the facts around in one go.

The German article linked has more details on going from WinNT to Linux/FLOSS/Samba et.al, with less detail RedHat/Ximian/GNOME/SuSE/Mandrake/KDE.

The
EU article mentioned in Kurts mail, has more focus on RedHat/Ximian/GNOME than Suse/Mandrake/KDE.

linux user @ 56years

[sireenmalik]

I have never got involved in MS Vs. Linux religios wars! However, this summer my mom came to visit me in Germany (from Asia) and from her experience with both OSs i have a better opinion!

I am a PhD. candidate. My work is wrapped around simulations for which I trust Linux/Debian. At house i've Suse 8.2 simply because it was the most painless installation of any OS i had ever made in my life.

My mom has an incurable habit of reading and writing. When she arrived i thought i would use the holidays to teach her to "use-the-mouse" and if that succeeds then treach her to do "google and surf" . I thought internet would probably catch her interest. I have to admit what follows was a lesson for me too.

Agreeing to the user-friendliness of Windows, i contemplated of installing XP as i thought it would make the job easier for her. It took some days before i could do that so for the intermediate phase i exposed mom to the already installed Suse. Partly because of my under-estimation of her IQ, and mostly because of her determination to prove to me that PhD is "just another degree" she could do "mouse" and "google" in a couple of days (half an hour after her first lone journey into the internet, i found 50+ empty mozilla browsers running!).

About a week later i installed XP (partition) and asked her to use it instead. Here is the summary of her questions/discussion before i switched her back to Suse!

1. Who are Carina, Angelaxxx, SusyDeep, TOM, etc? and why do you have friends like that??!?!?!

I use t-online. Unsolicited messages are norm. People familiar with these messages would know the content of these messages! No matter how much i try to convince mom that i have nothing to do with "those friends" she is still suspicious of me :-)

2. "People have lost fortunes in gambling. Its the slippery back of the snail. Stop gambling."

You see, when she opened a website in Explorer she recieved web-advertisements. A lot of them. I do not know the reason and i do not have the statistics to back it up, but i have also felt that the number of advertisements/pop-ups are far more in MS Windows/Explorer as compared to Mozilla/Linux. She had seen advertisements from online casinos!

3. There is something wrong with your computer because i can not read the text?

It is one of those things that is almost unbelievable but the website (our local newspaper in Urdu language) which she could read in Mozilla simply did not show the text in Explorer. I know you would say "font" but hey which OS had all the fonts on its side!

4. There is something wrong with your power-supply plug!

Thats what she thought was the reason for the machine "rebooting" itself every now and then. Honestly, i have not had the time to figure out why XP does this on my AMD Athlon machine- auto-reboot 2/3 times per week? Till the time i know the exact reason i would just think that there is something wrong with power-supply cable!

etc. etc.

You get the picture why i simply switched back.

I will add one thing before i pen off. I installed Suse 8.2 from DVD and it was the most painless installation experience of my life... 14-15 minutes and everything was working, including nVidia card and the DSL! I got to tell you that it went so smooth that i really thought that something was wrong! Once the system was running i could update everything (patches etc.) within half an hour with 2-3 clicks of mouse. I love Debian's "apt-get" now i love YAST too.

I have a much better opinion now. Thanks mom.

p.s.
Back home, she is insisting that my younger brother install the "soosey" too :-)

Re:linux user @ 56years

[sireenmalik]

This is an extension what i wrote above. It would not be totally fair to say that MS-Windows is not used at my house. My wife teaches computer at a local school and often uses children CDs almost all of which use MS-Windows. So I have kept the XP partition.

Re:linux user @ 56years

[hanssprudel]

Thats what she thought was the reason for the machine "rebooting" itself every now and then. Honestly, i have not had the time to figure out why XP does this on my AMD Athlon machine- auto-reboot 2/3 times per week? Till the time i know the exact reason i would just think that there is something wrong with power-supply cable!

I don't know if you are being facetious here, but you do realize this is a SoBig.F infection, right?

Re:linux user @ 56years

[RdsArts]

I know this has little to do with the discussion, but I was under the belief that instead of showing a BSoD, the default behaviour in XP is now to just reboot the machine. Haven't used the OS at all, so I've no idea if it's true, so this is just heresay, but hey.

*tosses two cents*

Re:linux user @ 56years

[c4ffeine]

Actually, it's never rebooted the entire machine for me. It just kills the process called Explorer, my screen goes blank except for my background, and everything flickers back. Is that supposed to happen? Sorry for my idiocy, but I don't have time to discover what's wrong with xp

Re:linux user @ 56years

[sireenmalik]

That 'd be a wow because the system was some hours into operation after an installation. I had niether POPed any email nor opened Yahoo/Hotmail/t-online accounts.

Actually till now i never realized that using linux all the time had me kind of think immune to viruses! But there is reality. You maybe right.

Re:linux user @ 56years

[hanssprudel]

I had it wrong, Sobig.F is a mail worm. I was thinking about MS Blaster which infects through open ports and makes windows reboot.

Re:linux user @ 56years

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, like you said, that's the shell (Explorer) crashing. Sometimes you can fix it by hitting ctrl-alt-del, open the task manager and start a new Explorer process (New task/type 'Explorer'/Hit Enter) , The shell restarts and you're back on you're desktop. Unfortunately, not all processes handle these kind of crashes very well so you may notice that some of your tray icons dissappear. What the hell.. just reboot instead.

Damn I hate Windows..

For the love of God

[p3d0]

Please stop using the acronym FLOSS. That's the dumbest acronym I have ever heard, and I am including "GNU" so you know I'm serious.

If we learn anything from the likes of Microsoft, I hope we learn a little about self-promotion.

Re:For the love of God

[Anonymous Coward]

Please stop using the acronym FLOSS. That's the dumbest acronym I have ever heard

It could be worse. Imagine BUTT FLOSS (Better Understanding of Technology Through Free/Libre Open Source Software).

Re:For the love of God

[HermanAB]

Yes absolutely. It should be GNUFLOSS.

Help ! - I need to migrate !

[bushboy]

After reading this article, I really feel the need to migrate !

Of course, if anyone could supply me with information on getting the following working under linux, I'd be very happy ! :-

1. Microsoft Encarta
2. Microsoft Golf
3. Internet Explorer 5.0
4. Windows Media Player
5. Zonealarm
6. Adaware
7. Nortons Anti-Virus

I'd really love some help - I need these quality applications to run in a Linux box, otherwise I just can't migrate !

Arrhghgh !

Re:Help ! - I need to migrate !

[Anonymous Coward]

Its early, I just woke up.

1 MS encarta ....don't know

2 MS golf........don't know

3 IE 5...........Mozilla, Konqueror, Opera, Galeon

4 Win Media Player... Mplayer(?)

5 Zonealarm ...... Iptables, FWbuilder,Linksys

6 Adaware..... Mozilla(?),Konqueror(?)

7 Norton AV..... F-prot

I think some of what you ask is already there. Games are best left for windows IMHO.
I only boot to win2k now to play BF1942.

Cheers!

Re:Help ! - I need to migrate !

[norsk_hedensk]

i hope that was a joke. until it gets modded +5 funny, i cant tell. i need slashdot to tell me how to feel!!

Re:Help ! - I need to migrate !

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny. I've decided it was a joke and not a clever troll.

Here are some suggestions:
1. Encarta -- Google
2. Golf -- Nethack
3. IE5 -- Firebird, Mozilla, Konqueror, Galeon for the browsing experience. For the other stuff, set your root pw to "password", diable firewall, enable older and buggy CGI software in apache, enable finger server, enable publicly accessible Samba share of your root fs, SUID your bash shell and create a CGI to automatically run web form submitted scripts.
4. WMP -- xmms, xine. Run crypt on random files in your mp3 and divx collection and forget the password so that you can reproduce the missing codec features.
5. ZoneAlarm -- iptables, use Lokkit or other frontend.
6. Adaware -- Turn off unrequested popup windows in any of your browsers. Not really needed.
7. Norton AV -- use Linux installation disks to delete the Windows partition. This will prevent 99.9% of viruses.

OOoSwitch

[Anonymous Coward]

Hentzenwerke publishes a book called OOoSwitch: 501 Things You Wanted To Know About Switching to OpenOffice.org from Microsoft(R) Office.

Dunno if it's a good book but I'm glad someone wrote it.

Re:They didn't migrate yet...

[Anonymous Coward]

This refers to the German Government document and not the EU doc: the original version, in German, was produced using OOo. The English translation involved ... other tools ;-) I have *no* idea how the EU doc was produced, so don't ask!

"et" means "and"

[anothy]

OT, but...
"et.al" is incorrect. as is "et. cetera" or "e.t.c.". in each case, "et" is latin for "and". "etc" and "etc." are okay, "et c." is the most correct abbreviation (although kinda ugly).

related (hey, i'm already OT, why not go for broke?), the ampersand (thingie above the 7 on US keyboards) is a evolution of "Et" (curve the top and bottom of the E, connect the lower horizontal line of the E to the vertical line of the t, and the middle horizontal line of the E to the horizontal line of the t, to get a start). so in addition to being useful on its own as "and", "&c" is also a correct replacement for "et cetera".

If you explain in simple terms, the users get it

[Anonymous Coward]

"Linux and Windows are two different things, like an electric car and a gasoline car. You don't put gasoline into an electric car."

No Exchange Killer Yet.

[LazloToth]

From an administrator's point of view, it is refreshing to see an analysis of OSS alternatives that does not gloss over the difficulties of migrating away from the Outlook/Exchange groupware architecture. Too many "analyses" by OSS advocates seem to say, 'Oh, go ahead and give this cobbled-together approach a shot - - you'll work things out one way or another.' If it is your responsibility to guide executive decision making where your company's groupware product is concerned, you know that this is one place where a misstep could easily cost you your job. As much as I would like to look at something like Kroupware or OpenExchange, this report bears out my own investigations - - there's nothing in the Open Source world yet that can take the place of a well-managed Outlook/Exchange infrastructure. This is the crown jewel of the Microsoft monopoly, and they guard it well. When OSS can provide a confidence-inspiring mailbox mass-migration tool and a back end that fully supports Outlook, that's the day you can sell your Microsoft stock.

Re:No Exchange Killer Yet.

[pe1chl]

With every migration, there is always the issue of "does the new product implement all 25000 features of the old product".
When you start your migration with the assumption "the new product must do everything the old product did plus possibly more" you will not only limit your options, but you will also migrate to more and more complex systems.

Instead, you should look at the requirements of the organisation, and define the properties of the system that will be implemented. Maybe Outlook/Exchange implements them, but that does not mean that it is the only solution to the problem.

Don't try to implement an Outlook/Exchange replacement, but define what your company needs and implement that. Possibly it does not need all the features of Outlook/Exchange and thus they do not need to be present in the "replacement".

We run an IMAP mailserver on Linux, with LDAP address book, and a separate web-based calendaring system. All are accessed from Mozilla on the (Windows) desktops. It works fine.
The only thing I would want to be improved is the maintenance of the LDAP address book by nontechnical users.

Re:No Exchange Killer Yet.

[LazloToth]

I think you're absolutely correct on all counts. At one point in my investigation of alternatives - - I'm a Linux guy from about 1995, by the way - - I built a Postfix/LDAP/Squirrelmail testbed on a little test network. We invited managers to play with the system, using Outlook, Outlook Express, Netscape Communicator, and the Squirrelmail interface. While some people seemed intrigued by the Open Source concept - - meaning they were amazed that all this cost essentially nothing to put together - - no one saw this as a replacement for Exchange/Outlook for even a moment. The free/busy scheduler and various aspects of contact management were the things people wanted to know about right up front.

In the end, the CEO and I came away feeling that Open Source offers many good solutions, but nothing that would meet the expectations of our users. On the upside of things, though, we have used the Postfix/Squirrelmail solution in other, less demanding areas of our operation, and it plays an important role in our disaster recovery plan.

Re:No Exchange Killer Yet.

[pe1chl]

It probably depends on the people and their expectations, plus their flexibility when looking at solutions.

We are running a system like that for over three years now, and our managers are very happy with it. In fact one asked me last friday to replace the Outlook program on his personal (home) system by Mozilla.

They not only like the fact that it is free, they also like that it has never been down except for scheduled maintenance, and that we have never had a virus or trojan.

For scheduling we use Maorong Zou's "Webcalendar".
Have a look here: http://www.ma.utexas.edu/~mzou/webCal/index.html

Re:No Exchange Killer Yet.

[audities]

Maybe Exchange is the *killer*. Here's what an experienced email admin posted yesterday about Exchange and spam handling:

"Microsoft has this "stated policy" that Exchange Server _will not_ verify local parts on incoming SMTP mail during the SMTP transaction. Supposedly this is to "protect" us from extra CPU usage for the LDAP lookups or something. What it means, of course, is that Exchange Server accepts mail for any local part for any domain it is serving, even dictionary attacks and other cruft. It then queues them up for delivery, but of course it can't deliver them because the local part is invalid so it wants to generate an NDR."

"This may have been reasonable behavior in 1998/9 when this product was being developed; today it is absolutely ridiculous. The prevalence of forged/invalid sender spam/viruses means that the Exchange Server "badmail" directory (equivalent of frozen messages in Exim land) just fills up constantly, even for a small site, and the server generates "collateral spam" for forged senders that are deliverable. I have no idea how sites with large email volumes handle this problem, it's just insane."

Re:No Exchange Killer Yet.

[HermanAB]

Huh? Ever heard of Suse OpenExchange? And Ximian Connector? MS Exchange is going out of business fast - I hope.

Re:No Exchange Killer Yet.

[LazloToth]

I really don't think Exchange is about to die any time soon. The real-world reports about OpenExchange don't make for encouraging reading if you're an Exchange admin hoping to depart from the MS platform. In my work, I take care of only two mail systems, but I call in consultants for, well, consulting from time to time. And I'm hearing that there are LOTS of folks who are doing just fine with Exchange 5.5, Outlook 2000, and NT4. The thing is, once you've spent the bucks for the add-ons that make Exchange reasonably secure, the thing runs pretty darned well. I, for one, have not had a hack or viral outbreak in four years, and I stay off the open relay lists with no problem.

Many, like me, are saying, hey, let's just keep the hardware maintained - - rotate those drives, replace the power supplies - - and we'll see in another 12-24 months what's out there. But, right now, there is NOTHING that can do what Exchange/Outlook can do. Believe me, I'd know - - I try everything I can get my hands on.

Re:No Exchange Killer Yet.

[dbIII]

That's true - security "features" like never being able to ever change the postmaster password - a feature of Exchange 5.5 despite many updates - is not implemented on any other mail transfer agent anywhere. That's right - if it gets hacked anyone that has EVER logged in as postmaster to that box is a suspect, great fun for contractors. The complex and time consuming process required to recover backed up mail without disrupting the current mailboxes puts it beyond the means of any nefarious folk that don't have a spare server or are prepared to shell out for another Exchange licence. In the *nix world anyone with permission can recover single messages from backed up mail files easily - as can be done in windows if mail is on the client machine and the mail client is anything but Outlook. It's true that you can accidently set up an open relay with any mail transfer agent - but with at least one version of Exchange it happens every time unless you install a patch. Doing things like adding disclaimer clauses to emails require a registry hack - If you don't carefully document what has been done to an exchange server the next guy has a major task working out how it is configured.

To make Exchange work well in a corporate environment, you also need third party software - like a virus scanning front end to Exchange and fax to mail software. With sendmail et al you also need additions. It's true that there is nothing like Exchange - sendmail and others handle mail, other things handle calenders and notification.

The exchange/outlook way of doing things can have very nasty unexpected consequences. As one example I worked with one person who kept the companies customer contact list (for a company with 100+ employees) in an Outlook mailbox on her LAPTOP hard drive - It didn't exist in any other form (not even a backup). I migrated that (in a very slow and painful process) into a database (rational clearquest with oracle back end) before anything nasty happened. The person involved had an IT degree so should know better than an engineer that's made the move to IT such as myself. I shudder to think what those who can't remember their usernames do with it.

One thing exchange does do - it keeps people employed to maintain it. I don't know how many times I had to get exchange going again after it didn't come up in the morning after a backup (you have to shut it down completely to backup the mailboxes - another feature!), and I only had three exchange servers to babysit.

The question is what functionality is required, then what are the users used to. A migration away from exchange will be painful to the users (but so will the removal of Bonzai Buddy from the machines of some users), and keeping it is painful for the sysadmins, and often makes them look incompetant when it breaks or doesn't come up in the mornings. Either way, keeping up with the newest exchange or spending time and putting contractors on to change the system rapidly is going to be expensive.

Re:No Exchange Killer Yet.

[LazloToth]

I'll address a few of your points:

"That's right - if it gets hacked anyone that has EVER logged in as postmaster to that box is a suspect, great fun for contractors."

True, but finding a rootkit on your Postfix box is every bit as scary.

"The complex and time consuming process required to recover backed up mail without disrupting the current mailboxes puts it beyond the means of any nefarious folk that don't have a spare server or are prepared to shell out for another Exchange licence."

With Veritas Backup-Exec, the Exchange module enables online backups of the information store as well as online backups and single-message restorations of mailboxes. It works very well.

"To make Exchange work well in a corporate environment, you also need third party software - like a virus scanning front end to Exchange and fax to mail software."

True, but we all know it costs money to build and maintain networks.

"As one example I worked with one person who kept the companies customer contact list (for a company with 100+ employees) in an Outlook mailbox on her LAPTOP hard drive - It didn't exist in any other form (not even a backup)."

Dangerously ignorant people exist on every platform, Exchange and otherwise. There is no such thing as "foolproof," but, alas, there is abundant evidence of foolishness.

"A migration away from exchange will be painful to the users (but so will the removal of Bonzai Buddy from the machines of some users), and keeping it is painful for the sysadmins, and often makes them look incompetant when it breaks or doesn't come up in the mornings.

Even more painful, from an exec's point of view, is the cost of retraining. That kind of pain in a network of hundreds or thousands of users must be carefully considered. Maybe that's why Morgan-Stanley, with tens of thousands of brokers worldwide, has made a rather public move to *nix, but continues to utilize Exchange.

Hurray for inherent disability

[Jameth]

I just love the way that a freshly installed Windows system has viruses before its used. They're like special, poisonous Easter eggs!

But, seriously, that is so sad. Does anyone realize that we've already lost the war against viruses and are now to the point where we are trying to overthrow firmly entrenched tyranny?

(Likewise with spam and Microsoft)

Re:Hurray for inherent disability

[hanssprudel]

But, seriously, that is so sad. Does anyone realize that we've already lost the war against viruses and are now to the point where we are trying to overthrow firmly entrenched tyranny?

(Likewise with spam and Microsoft)

And DRM (I knew it was coming, never thought it would be Apple...) And ISPs limiting what you can do with an account. And proprietary file formats. And software patents.

Re:If you explain in simple terms, the users get i

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary, that's the ONLY thing you should do with any electric car!

Re:If you explain in simple terms, the users get i

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, look, a post from an American.

Sigh - it was a joke

[bushboy]

Sadly, I failed at being funny on this one.
I wish myself better luck next time !

.Net alternatives

[Quelain]

Strange that they do not mention Mono or DotGNU in their discussion of MS .Net migration, but instead rave about the superiority of J2EE for a couple of pages. They go so far as to say .NET is Windows only...

Re:.Net alternatives

[Zaiff Urgulbunger]

I guess because no one is migrating *from* .Net at this point in time -- typically people want to migrate from something older.

Not enough people hear about these reports

[malsdavis]

I think although these reports are very useful and helpful in allowing businesses to assess the benefits of switching to Open Source software, not enough of them hear about the actual reports.

Unlike the commercial software companies, mail outs are not produced and multi-million dollar advertising campaigns are not conducted.

I think Open Source in general would benefit greatly if information regarding it could be distributed more widely so to match the commerical companies.

Good Linux desktop computers at University

[malsdavis]

At the University of Birmingham, England, the computer science department has hundred's of desktop computers all running Linux with Openoffice and Mozilla and the few other applications that make an excellent, yet extremely cost-effective replacement for expensive Microsoft Windows and Office software.

If many businesses were to follow these lines the total software and support costs would be reduced dramatically.

the pdf above is in English

[malsdavis]

The pdf document in the summary is in English

what are you talking about????

[Anonymous Coward]

My livelihood depends on Linux!

Windows is HUGE drag on small businesses (keeping up with updates and worms, etc).

When I set up Linux (or BSD) I know it's going to be easy to lock down and keep up to date. That way I have more time for other customer-focused stuff.

If you take out the cost of migration (otherwise known as "lock-in" cost) there's no reason not to use Free software.

Please, everybody use Linux! Who cares about "community" and warm fuzzy stuff, this is about hard business numbers. I don't lie to my clients and tell them "aww, shucks, Linux has a 'community', I tell em: 'with linux you have the freedom to X, Y, and Z, and you don't have to pay a dime for the software itself, you never have to worry about 'licenses', and for $100/mnth I will keep them up to date from my home office. End of story."

Re:what are you talking about????

[Anonymous Coward]

Windows is great for consultants. All the $$ we make from visiting clients, installing patches and security updates, workstation OS and hardware updates every 2 - 5 years, server OS / hardware updates every 3 - 6 years. It's a cash cow ... of course, we use Linux at the office where ever possible so we don't have to put up with the crap. Long live Microsoft!

I did a 180

[Anonymous Coward]

When this whole SCO thing started, I actually went to Microsoft from Libux. Why? As an idealist, I cannot abide by the fact that although SCO has yet taken the whole thing through a rigorous court process, I refuse to use any code that may be owned by Mormons. Since they are a cult, I also quit using Google as their CEO is a Mormon.

Re:I did a 180

[bninja_penguin]

When this whole SCO thing started, I actually went to Microsoft from Libux. Why? As an idealist, I cannot abide by the fact that although SCO has yet taken the whole thing through a rigorous court process, I refuse to use any code that may be owned by Mormons. Since they are a cult, I also quit using Google as their CEO is a Mormon.

Man, are you screwed. I know some guys I went to high school with who now work at Microsoft. Oh, and they write code for XP. Oh, and above all else, they are Mormons. Looks like you'll just have to write your own OS, bub, There are Mormon coders at Apple also. There are Mormon people who work at food places too, and build cars, and, Shit man, get a life... Mormonism isn't any different than Catholicism, or whatever. They are all "Cults" according some people.
Mormons have their quirks, just like Catholics have priests who chase little boys, and, even though there are over a million members of the Jehova's Witnesses, they believe there will be only 700,000 souls saved at rapture time (I think it's them, don't know for sure), anyway, ALL organized religions could fit the criteria for the status of a "Cult", So who gives a flying fuck what the religion of some CEO is, as long as the product isn't crap??

Would that really help?

[scruffyMark]

I'm not very knowledgeable on Unix FS's, but surely, short of some type of UPS between the case power supply and the HDs, there's no way you can stop things from being corrupted by hard power-downs. If you hit the power switch while the drive is midway through a write operation, it will toast whatever is being written.

The one cure I can see is the approach Mac OS has taken since at least the first G3s - there is no hard power switch on the front of the case. Hit the power button on the case, and it will send an interrupt to the OS, which will pop up a "do you want to power down now?" dialog. The only way to shut down without the OS knowing is to reach behind the case and pull the plug (or cause a kernel panic, of course, but that's gotten fairly hard to do with OS X).

Re:Would that really help?

[Ed Avis]

The idea is you first write a record to the journal - an area of disk set aside for this. If power fails while writing that, this record is lost, but the filesystem is not corrupted because the partially-written record can be cleanly ignored on next boot. And the write() system call or whatever won't return until the disk has finished writing to the journal (assuming ext3 with data=journal), so you know that if the write completed, it's definitely on the disk.

Later on something can come along and move data from the journal to another area of the disk, for efficiency when reading. This too can be done in such a way that no data is lost - if the power fails you can just reexamine the whole journal on the next reboot.

So if you lose power while the application is saying 'Busy saving...' you obviously won't get the file it was in the middle of writing. But once the app says 'Save complete' you know it really has gone to the disk. And no matter what happens, the filesystem won't be corrupted (short of bugs in the FS code or physical disk corruption, of course).

Re:Please Mod the parent down as offensive!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hope it was worth the Karma burn, genius. Thinking about it, goatse guy is modded as overrated, you're modded as off-topic. That makes you WORSE THAN GOATSE!!! Oh man, that's good stuff. And there is no offensive mod. That would be for pussies.

Problems with managers?

[StoneCrusher]

There are a lot of non-tech managers out there that are a more than a little scared of the idea of free software. Add in a little FUD and a scary letter from SCO and who can really blame them.

The solution... don't get into the free (speech/beer) argument at all. Simply present the costs/benefits analysis of a linux boxed set (hey, you get some support and a pretty box as well) vs the M$ product.

Don't forget to include a decent security section in your review :-)

It's a start, but don't let 10 Nov stop it.

[Peyote Pekka]

Hopefully the U.S. won't get bought and paid for too soon, or it will become the world's Former Super-Power.

Too late. W has run up a bar tab he can't pay and is now trying to get the EU to cover it even as it continues to increase. While the sheeple were busy electing Conan, no action was taking to shore up the economy. Some of the federal costs have been shifted over to individual states which are mostly worse off than California. The interest rate cannot be cut further and it is doubtful that the last-ditch maneuver of reducing the strength of the dollar can hold of the D-word.

The only thing that could stop the snowball would be U.S.-style software patents in Europe, which is why the U.S. is lobbying so hard in the EU to get them put through. The EU will vote yet again on software patents 10 Nov 2003. Contact your EU representative and prevent the U.S. economic depression from dragging down the European development.

available in book format soon

[Anonymous Coward]

According to their statement at

http://www.kbst.bund.de/Aktuelles-aus-der-KBSt-, 29 .303387/Entscheidungshilfe-der-Migrati.htm?global. home=1

the paper should be available as a real book somewhere in october to be ordered here:

http://www.mitp.de/vmi/mitp/blau

(for those who don't want to print 418 pages) I wouldn't know it this only applies to the german version or not.

Conversion my ass

[SonicBurst]

open the pdf file with an editor and look toward the bottom...created with Adobe Acrobat on Windows!

Re:Conversion my ass

[Unit3]

RTFA, man:

Oh, and even if the PDF is saying it was produced
from MS Windows with the help of PDFmaker -- be assured that the original
document was written with the help of OpenOffice.org. vlendec should be
able to confirm this, since he is also one of the authors...

Do I understand this right?

[scruffyMark]

What I understood from that is:

On any write() call,

1. the data is written to the journal area of the disk.
2. once that has completed successfully, it's written to the regular data area of the disk.

Also, if I get it correctly, the first write couldn't be stuck in a write cache, but has to complete immediately, while the second could be cached and completed later.

So, if the power dies during the first write, you fall back to the original data. If it dies during the second write, fsck runs on reboot and uses the journal as a source of authoritative data.

Net effect then would be that any write() call would take roughly twice the time (likely more, since one of the seek/writes can't be cached), while reading would take exactly the same amount of time.

Re:Do I understand this right?

[Ed Avis]

Yeah your understanding sounds more likely to be correct than mine. (Though it must vary with different filesystems, and the layout on disk doesn't always determine the strategy you must use to write things.) I do recall something about ext3 flushing the journal to disk every five seconds by default, so it's possible that the writing-to-regular-bit-of-disk doesn't get asked for at the time of the original write() call, but by a separate daemon thingy some time later.

Let's stick to OS wars

[dbIII]

What has happened with Mormons holds up some hope that there may be future benefits from groups like Scientologists. Mormons started off as looking like an excuse to marry lots of women and cut the throats of your enemies (and hence redeem them) and ended up getting the antisocial edges worn off them and forming a functional society. I do jokingly refer to the opulent new mormon temple in my city as "the temple of mammon", but the people that go there are functional members of society - and don't go aroung cutting anyones throats. Give it fifty years and they might even start feeding the poor and other things that other religeous groups do.

Besides, a lot of other groups were doing nasty things in 1857.

shutdown /?

[edgarde]

If yr on a Windows machine, typing shutdown /? (or just shutdown) at a command prompt won't harm you. I think shutdown -s is all you need.

shutdown -s -t 120 -c "user initiated" might impress the boss more.

-f (close applications without warning) should probably be avoided on a user control.

More here.

Ich, fur ein,

[Hognoxious]

begrusse unseren neuern Teutonischen Ubermeistern.