Slashdot Mirror
Rules for Teenage Internet Access?
Kent Brewster writes "Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms. We've got a nebulous set of rules, which include several like these: Keep the door open when you're on the computer. Don't quickly exit from everything when we walk past. Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing. Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific. We'd be very interested in hearing from both sides of the fence: parents with Net-connected progeny, and those who are chafing under their rule. Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms, what's a reasonable set of guidlines? Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? Do they actually make a difference in your behavior, or do you just sneak past them anyway? Finally, and this is sort of a meta-question from an exasperated dad, does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?"
By age 15, I'd be concerned if they weren't yet looking at porn.
As far as the "don't quickly exit from everything" rule, I think that's a bit unfair... there are plenty of legitimate reasons they might want to (emails, IMs, etc.), and even the naughtiest of children should feel they have SOME privacy. Besides, knowing that you trust them is far more important for their growth than seeing a few naked women (masturbation discovery nonwithstanding).
Observing my siblings and their friends grow up I have noticed something - stricter parenting doesn't make children misbehave less, it just makes them better at lying. You have two options -
Which one all depends on how street-wise you think your kids are. If you think that they are going get influenced by what they see or talk to the wrong people (like paedophiles or Irish people), the dangers are too great so you have to restrict them. If you are just simply uncomfortable with them seeing inappropriate images, bear in mind they'll see them elsewhere if not at home, so what's the point in stopping them?
foo mane padme hum
You mention that the rules have all been broken? What happened when they broke them? Did you take the computer out of the room for a time? If not, perhaps you should in the future.
I don't know about the rest of the stuff, but as a teenage boy, let me tell you, Netnanny or any of that privacy software DOESTN't work, so don't try that. Also, don't assume the worst in kids, unless they are male, and are pubescent, in which case, the answer is YES, he WAS looking at porn.
Canadian Cynic, canadian politics is less boring than you
does everybody lie about what they're doing on the Internet?
Yes.
I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
I know the point of ask Slashdot is to make fun of the person asking the question but come on. Simple...log where they are going or set up some advanced Snort rules on a firewall box to alert you whenever keywords come through. But seriously I've been looking at internet pr0n since I was 11, way back in the day(About 1993), it doesn't hurt much just make sure they aren't planning on meeting someone they met in a chat room named SugarDaddy35 and it'll be fine.
My parents, when asked to sign a letter stating that I could get an Internet account from the ISP I was working for, only replied, "Of course there's porn on the Internet, isnt't that what it's for?".
If you, as a parent, have to tell your kids not to:
* Close everything up when you walk by
* Keep the door open
* Don't lie to us.
Then you've got some serious human responsibility issues.
Don't ever lie to us about what you're doing.
Whenever my parents told me crap like this, it inspired me to lie about pretty much everything. Including activities which would probably not get me in trouble. But, when you create an environment of distrust, you're more likely to breed distrustful actions....
"Quoting famous computer scientists out of context is the root of all evil (or at least most of it) in programming." - K
Non-parents, what are the rules that chap your hide the worst? I hated it when my parrents would try to give me guide lines on when to use the computer. "Don't be up at 11 using the computer". That kind of thing doesn't help much. If you ever get in that situation for your kids, tell them that it's late and give them the option of turning off the computer for the night. If they say no, then remind them they still need to get up at 6 the next morning for school, and stick by it. Learning by cause and effect rather than a parrent laying down the law is usually more effective (it just created resent for me).
Don't keep the door closed when you're on the computer? Geez, what horrible rule, especialy for the 15 year old.
:).
If you're that freaked out, why not put all the computers in a "family computer lab"? Is it that painful for you to actually spend time in the same room as your kids?
I mean seriously, putting the TV, computer, etc in the kids room means the kid will spend all their time in their room alone, away from the rest of the family. Put all the entertainment devices in the same place, and you'll find yourselves actually spending time together. That's certainly what I plan on doing when I have kids (which should hopefully be quite a while from now
w.r.t your paranoia. There's a lot of fucked up stuff on the internet, and your kids will eventually see it anyway. I wouldn't want small children to see that stuff but the stileproject isn't going to turn a 15 year old into a psychopath.
But anyway, my solution still solves your problem. So do it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Yes, I think that they deserve a reasonable amount of privacy, but you wouldn't let them hit the town without at least knowing where they're going, would you?
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I'm willing to say the biggest thing wasn't the fact that my parents were big on what I was doing on the computer, it was the lack of respect for my own privacy. Believe it or not, your kids opinion of you (and how much he/she will visit you ;) ) depends on how much space you allow them.
Now there is a such thing as too much space. However, if you want to protect your kids from p0rn, just make it not such a big deal. If you allow your child to date, chat, and be sure to give'em the "sex talk", it isn't so interesting anymore. (In my experience, the kids with the parents who showered them with information and condoms were the ones who are still virgins.)
Most parents only care about p0rn and bombmaking, which is something you don't find unless you are curious. I would say limit your kids time online, but be fair about it. And figure out just what they do with their bandwidth. If the kid has days of music and new games all of the time -- you know what he's doing. But if you notice the harddrive is full, maybe you ought to search for video files periodically.
If you find something, *chill out*. Bringing it up isn't going to help unless you're willing to bar them from the internet forever. In the end, every lonely 15 yo kid is gonna see it, you're just dodgning the inevitable. The easier it is, the less interesting. Be curious, but don't be a nazi.
Why can't all fpga/microcontroller manufacturers just release free optimizing compilers???
On a personal note, i'd never try to enforce a 'no porn' rule on teenage boys. It's damn stupid. Even my mom was cool with the porn mags in my night table when I was a kid. We had a don't ask don't tell rule. She didn't clean that drawer - it was my one sanctum of privacy.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
You allready pretty much summed it up.
You don't trust your children.
If you want to If instill Big Brother.
You could always install a product like spector pro on the pc's and review their actions on a daily basis.
Let them know that it's on there, and that they have no privacy and they'll be sure to behave.
Then again, you could just trust them. And let them actually confide in you without fear of being punished for every little thing.
An example:
(Would you rather have your kid
(1)call you "I'm too drunk to drive home" from a party,
or
(2)Try to drive home drunk afraid that if they didn't Mom and Dad would know they were drinking.)
.
Remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.
Something I'm thinking of doing when I've got little ones running around is putting their pc's behind a special gateway. This way I can block off specific websites, ports, etc for their subnet. Maybe even a way to disable/enable the internet depending on the time of day. (chron jobs maybe?) You could also log everything because all the net traffic would be comming over one line. I know it isn't the perfect answer but it seems better and cheaper if using linux than software solutions. If I had it logging some stuff I'd just do random checks of the logs for stuff that wasn't allowed. This would all be pretty invisible to the children too. Keep the gateway under lock and key and I'd consider my self pretty lucky if my kid was 1337 enough to hack my box.
Oops!
Kids are curious by nature, I know I was. No matter what you do they are going to get their hands on exactly what you don't want them to, so why bother trying? Censuring your childrens' access to the internet is only going to cause them to resent you more and place more obstacles in the path of having a positive relationship with them. I grew up with a computer in my room connected to the internet! (my parents didn't know about that though... they are quite computer illiterate and didn't seem to notice when I crawled under the house with a couple hundred feet of CAT 5. But now I am about to graduate with a BS in Computer Engineering. So, let your kids be, they will turn out all right.
For a 15 year old, I wouldn't really be worried. The only real risk would be pervs chatting them up (especially if they were a girl) But even there I'd probably stop worrying around 13 or 14 or so.
:))
Teach your kids that "don't talk to strangers" applies online as well. (Oh, and be sure to tell them what a stranger is. When I was a child I met a girl who though "Stranger" was simply a synonym "pedophile". I told her it meant anyone she didn't know and she didn't believe me).
Definitely tell them not to ever give out their email address, or download software (probably don't want to give them admin access, unless they are a geek, in which case you should give them a Linux machine
But you have to be age appropriate as well. Something like the stileproject could seriously warp a little kid. Or at least it seems like it could, I'm not a psychologist.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Sir, not to disrespect, but I'm sure your wife doesn't know about EVERYTHING that you do on the internet. And if she does, something is either very wrong, or very right.
See, it all boils down to the fact that the internet is just like any other information medium, be it the library, the video shop w/ an "adult" section in back, or Pigsty, the dirty little kid who hangs out on the playground singing "milk milk lemonade..." That is to say, you'll never be able to keep it in check. It is outside of your sphere of influence.
What can you do? Prepare your kids for what they may run into. Give them feedback and guidance on how to deal with certain situations. Tell them what is appropriate and what is not. After that, its all up to them. As it should be. Humans need practice making decisions for themselves and not having everything honed down, toned down, and spoon fed to them. To do so is a disservice to both the human spirit, and your children's ability to function and think on a level that you may not be comfortable with.
The fact is, you can't protect them. You can only help guide and instruct them.
And if its really such a big deal, take the computer away and be a mean parent. They'll forgive you eventually, and its probably for the best anyway. Its not like its the end of the world, and there's no need for you to cave just cuz Johnny S and Susie Q have computers in their rooms.
Anyway, its all about the trust, man. Trust that your kids know what they're doing and if it gets out of hand, offer help and advice instead of anger and retribution. We get enough of that from The Christain God.
---
To add to the parent poster: Most would agree that there are dangers to the internet, which your rules are there to protect. When those rules are broken, you should have a pre-set plan of consequences. On the part of the child the punishment is a deterent, but you must be strong enough to cary through so that they can also learn from the experience of breaking the rule. I can not stress enough that you should not cave to their 'needs' and be afraid of taking the computer away as punishment.
With your rules it would seem logical that removing the computer (or internet connection) would be a fair punishment.
As the old saying goes: Spare the Rod, Spoil the child. The older I get (I am only 22 now) the more truth I see in that
I know this is not a popular view these days, but whatever rules you make about internet use in your house are fair - it's your house.
Keep in mind, though, that all teenage boys wank over naughty pictures - this is normal. And no-one wants to admit that to their parents - that would be embarrassing for the kid.
If you're concerned, have all internet traffic enter your house through a box you control, and install dans guardian on it. I'm too lazy to link to it - GIYF.
You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
I love it. /. parenting. Finally.
... you can go off the pill"
:) It was a good setup.
.02's? Kids need privacy. Kids need discipline. Kids aren't the parents. Install some snooping software. Just like my mom used to pick up on the phone extension -- though she never knew I knew how to wire up a few parts from Radio Shack and a blinking led always told me of a 2nd extension going off-hook.
[me]: "HONEY -- I'm ready now
The sad thing is I grew up with a C=64. My parents didn't understand what I was doing. Thus they didn't _want_ to know. Nothing illegal, of course...
Today, they _still_ don't understand what I do or how I do it. Fine by me -- and now it pays the bills. Almost ironical.
My
Oh yeah. Tell them about using protection (!) PLEASE. Too many Windows boxes spewing spam from virus'. Or go buy them a Mac if you're tired of the patches, but I digress.
The worst punishment I ever got was getting grounded to my parents room. No computer. No TV. Oh my gosh, only books. Funny -- I still like to read.
Since she's sitting next to me, playing Diablo 2, I asked my 14-year-old daughter about her net access.
"I find little weird web sites, I look at them," she says. "When I close the [browser] window, it's just an automatic reaction to parents in the room, a matter of privacy."
Yes, I've caught my eldest daughter reading disturbing web sites -- CNN, Christian fundamentalists, anime, Slashdot. Lord knows, she's found some very strange online comics. She asks the most damnable questions sometimes -- and that's just fine with me.
I can't teach my daughters to respect my privacy by snooping in her activities. I trust my kids. They know their parents trust them, and that they can come to us with any question; we know what they are doing, where, and with who, not because we dictate, but because our kids want us involved in their life.
All about me
By the time your kids are in or approaching highschool, the groundwork has been laid. Either you have a strong, nurturing relationship, and your kids have learned to think responsibly for themselves; or they're snotty brats who distrust their overbearing and indifferent parents, who will lie to you at every opportunity, and who will bend with the winds of peer pressure. Either way, they have already been faced with every temptation you wish they didn't know about.
You need to give them the tools to make good choices: self-respect, self knowledge, curiosity, empathy, fairness, and the other strengths of responsible adulthood. And if they have a healthy amount of curiosity and are not malformed, OF COURSE they'll be fascinated by porn. Weren't you? Like the other poster said, isn't that what the Internet is for?
Little kids are another story, of course. They are still assembling their tool kits. You need to guide them through the discovery of life's seamier chapters. But fortunately, little kids won't know how to circumvent firewalls, and they don't need computers in their rooms. You have a few years to get them ready. And what they need from you has nothing to do with technology.
So I laugh at the folks who are aghast at their 16 year old kids running Grand Theft Auto Vice City. But I shudder at my friends who bought it for their ten-year-old son. WTF?
-- We all have enough strength to endure the misfortunes of other people. La Rochefoucauld
I got a summer job and bought my own PC. So I'm golden on that front.
My parents tend to learn computer stuff from me. Thus I do not discuss History Lists around them.
I get home from school before my parents get home. This leaves me about two hours to do whatever.
I have a brother, and we tend to keep the fappage details secret from each other. It's not good to look at porn when the other brother is in the room; that's just our moral code. I know he looks at lots of crap and he has mostly given up on hiding it; he still closes windows quickly though. And it's not like we rat on each other; he who has not sinned may cast the first stone, I always say. But still, I categorically deny anything that may show up in my History, intentionally or not.
I must be pretty lucky compared to other teens "chaffing under the rules." My parents have recently grown a little concerned after I posted some of my Photoshops of teachers on my blog that got me suspended for ten days and got me kicked out of the National Honor Society. But otherwise it's cool.
Oh crap! I'm starting to think they might not care!
Nah.
I have 3 children (16,10 and 5), they all have computers in thier rooms that have unfiltered Internet access. The only real hard and fast rules we have is that they are not allowed to talk to people on IM or e-mail that they do not know, never give out your e-mail address to people you don't know, and never agree to buy anything. The last one became necessary when my 10year old joined Columbia records and got 10 free CD's for a penny!!! Now the gotcha's. My kids know that I can see everywhere they go by checking my firewall logs. If I check my logs and and see anything I feel is worth discussing then I will. Nothing will stop a 16 year old from viewing porn like having to face dad for an open and frank discussion that starts out as "so son, notice you've been looking at a lot of sex pages..Do you think all women are like that?? I noticed you were spending most of your time on pages where the women were doing X. Why is that ?? " He would much rather I just yell at him and forbid it, but I refuse. Basically I am using shame as a weapon..Will probably have to pay for it via therapy for them later...Oh well.
Parents, once you're past making the huge mistake of actually letting the kids have computers in their rooms...
There is no way to prevent the access. There is no way to prevent desire. Acknowledge this and adapt. Teach ethics, treat people (including your kids) with respect, and behave honorably. Simple.
The alternatives suck.
Maw! Fire up the karma burner!
It was discovering gay Internet communities that stopped me from hating myself. In most areas of the U.S., teens that question their sexuality aren't allowed to have anything resembling a constructive dialogue that helps them come to terms with themselves. I lived in an oppressively homophobic, fantically religious small town where being gay was outright unthinkable. The innate homophobia in high school doubled the effect. I HATED it, almost became suicidal. But the Internet helped me bring my confusing "differences" into sharper focus, gave me the chance to feel less alone, and provided me hope for eventually escaping the evangelical confines of my surroundings. Access to gay youth resources on the Internet would be the first thing to go if a filter was in place. Especially if a log file was being recorded. The last thing a gay teen wants to do is tip his parents off about his sexuality before he wants to!
The answer to that last question, of course, is also yes.
Good point, everyone claims "Well trying to shelter the kids is pointless, they will find out about it sooner or later and then all you have done it make it more desirable by forbidding it."
The Internet is new; most parents today, as children, did not have the level of access to such material in the home that we do now. As the poster above says, would you let your kids walk around just anywhere in your town? Think of the seediest, run-down strip in your town, yet with no age limits at the bars and video stores. Approximately half of the internet looks like that.
There's a good reason that, before the internet, you had to be a certain age before getting access to this kind of material. It's not to shelter the children, it's to prevent exposure to this kind of material until they are old enough to make mature judgements and decisions. Before learning what the dirty underbelly of the world looks like, they should at least learn respect for others and not to treat women as objects. Children absorb and form ideas very quickly, while adults have a sort of filter of past judgement and experience where they can decide to take something to heart or forget it.
...
there is only one rule you need to make and that is that you will not allow them to meet anyone from the internet unless you meet them first.
you can't/shouldn't invade their privacy or stop them finding a bit of porn, but at the ages you are talking about they are still relying on you for money/ transportation so play that as your trump card.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
What exactly is your goal in doing this? To prevent them from looking at porn? To keep pedophiles from chatting up your kids? Under your rules, your kids could look at porn all they want as long as they're willing to let you know about it, in other words, you hope your children's shame in their parents knowing about their sexual predilictions should keep them in line? Or you just want your kids to be honest about their sexuality with you? Both of those seem a little weird to me.
If I were you, I'd just use some kind URL sniffer on, and check to make sure they wern't looking at anything really weird.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
First as a parent, (i'm not one) you should trust your children. The internet is like any public place, you can't be with your child 24/7. Maybe it's because I'm not a parent, but my parents always instilled the expected behavior from me and then let me choose what it is I was going to do. This has made me a better person in life as I've made my own mistakes and have learned that what they usually say is true. So I tend to listen and accept what they have to say not as rules but as life learning experience.
Point two; I dont want to sound demeaning but parents such as yourself who set rules on things they have little to no control over end up having children who lie to your face. They end up at Billy's house using the internet to talk to some pedophile. Something you could of had control over if it wasn't for the gestapo rules as it would of been in the open. So instead of saying listen, talking to X people over the internet isn't cool and having a positive discussion with your child. You simply have no idea what's going on. Your child ends up on the run with some pedophile in Mexico and you are wondering what happened.
With children I think that the best thing is to simply let them know is that just like anywhere else the Internet is a public place. Just like I will teach my child not to talk to strangers, I'll teach them not to talk to strangers on the internet. At least not in a personal non-academic way and when they are old enough to make the decision that they feel they can do what they want, then thats their choice. However rules like "keep the door open" while on the internet will do nothing for you. Your major mistake is believing that your rules will stop a curious child, they won't. Instead of being a rule gestapo, explain to your children the positives and negatives, tell them what they need to hear so that they can expect certain things and already be alert.
Lastly, be parents. I think the problem today is that alot of parents think that setting "rules" is all they need to do when in reality understanding their children and inquiring about their lives is what parenting is all about. Teach your children, rules mean nothing if they don't know how to handle life like situations. The internet isn't the mistake, public schools aren't the mistake, life situations aren't mistakes. Stop blaming society or the internet or whatever because simply, they are here and everything has problems. It's how your child conceptualizes the problems, issues and general life situations they will have to deal with on daily basis that will determine if you are a parent, or simply a care taker. That choice is truly the parents, and the behavior of the child is truly reflective upon them. My mom used to say, "the smartest children aren't just the ones that can win spelling bee's, or get straight A's. They are usually the ones who can tell if you're bullshitting or not and have toyed with you just to get to see you cards." I guarantee you, your kids can't call a bluff, you've never even explained to them what a bluff looks like.
Heh, I think i'll call my mom now and thank her. She really prepared me for life, not just tell me to follow rules.
I'd have to say it's a lot more like letting a teenager loose in the library of congress. You never know what they might learn.
If you could be told what you can see or read, then it follows that you could be told what to say or think - BoC
That and the fact that you have no life.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
I'm 20, and I have no children, but the other day (seriously) I was thinking about what kind of internet access I would allow my kids to have..
Proxy port 80: Use something like squid and proxy up port 80 and don't allow any regular traffic on 80 otherwise. Then tell your kid that you can see what websites they're checking out, just to keep them accountable. Doesn't mean you actually have to check the caches constantly. If ever..
No "Speedy Minimization" Rule: I remember the times I was talking to girls when I was younger, it wasn't anything bad, it was just something I didn't wish to share with my parents. I can understand seeing your kid quickly minimizing a photo of albino midget porn, but emails/IMs, I think that's just as intrusive as insisting that your kids let you bug their telephone conversations. How would you like your kids listening on a separate phone to all your conversations?
that is all,
Klowner
I strongly advise you to let your children make mistakes and learn about the world. Trying to protect them from every possible ill of the world will backfire and surely by the time they graduate high school they will have many problems. I still have serious social problems as a result of my parents control structures. I've also had to learn lessons that people with normal parents had learned as teenagers. Believe me trying to protect your children from the world is just a recipe for a whole lot of pain in their future.
And I only think it is because of our Puritan society. I know legally you are required to be 18 to look at porn, but it is a consequence of our overly Puritan society.
Unfortunately, our nation's leaders don't seem to understand that once our children hit puberty (esp. male), they will want to get some sexual gratification.
I say let them look at all the porn they want. If they are male, they probably already are looking at it. And don't deny that you didn't look at it when you were a kid.
The only thing you should forbid them against is blantantly illegal activity, such as cracking into other people's computers. If they become interested in hacking, setting up a local honey pot and let them play around with it.
... and the rest of my post (sorry)
Yes, pornography is evil. Not only now but it always has been and always will be.
Lust is the driver behind pornography, Lust to have something (sex), which God created for intimacy inside of marriage outside of marriage. The lack of self-control in fulfilling that lust in any of many different ways (pornography is only one) removes our ability to enjoy the very thing we desire. It is our own evil desire (inside of every one of us) that feeds lust and draws us into the traps of pornography where nothing ever satisfies. Here is one of the problems with lust: When we attempt to fulfill this lust apart from Gods design it is like chasing the wind. One picture is never enough. Having sex once outside of marriage is never enough, nothing is enough. As soon as one desire is fulfilled another comes. God wants us to embrace our sexuality and accept the plan He had when He created sex. Battling lust is part of how we do that!
I'd think specifically about what your worries are before laying down laws. A well-adjusted young adolescent won't be Scarred for Life by anything on the internet (except the stuff that scars us all :). I'd worry more about whether or not they're able to contextualize what they see or read -- since they WILL encounter porn, hate speech, etc. eventually, rules or no. In any case, I'd drop the "door open" policy, at least for the older ones: adolescents need some privacy to be able to start leading their own lives. And I'd be wary of surveilling your kids in general, unless there is something specific to worry about (i.e., lots of gun-related websites).
No. I mean, not too often. Well, sometimes. Okay, fine, I'm not really 6'4", fabulously wealthy, and have a 9 inch cock. Under my red mini-skirt. Which I wear when I pick up hot 18-year old sluts who will do anything for money!
Now that I've gotten my smart-assedness out of my system, I think it's time you looked at the basics of human development.
Kids grow. In doing so, they will expect their own privacy and freedom. With that goes responsibility. Would you let your 11 year old go to a party unsupervised? Probably not. Would you let your 15 year old? Well, judging from your attitude, probably not. I would. As long as your kids are getting good grades and have their shit pretty much together, let them do their own thing. If they want money from you, make them mow the yard. If they want a ride, tell them to clean up their room first. If they choose to walk rather than that, don't bitch at them. It's their choice. You need to slowly relax the reins, so that when they are 18 and go off to college, they have the skills and maturity to adjust, rather than just going "Woo-hoo! I don't have to listen to anyone anymore! I'm gonna fuckin' party". That's a big part of the problem. If you think your kids aren't interested in sex, intoxicants ( drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, whatever ), bands, parties, etc., you're wrong. Weren't you? It's a matter of degrees, and knowing what is healthy.
And doesn't it strike you as odd that your child feel the need to lie to you? My personal experience has been that it's easier to tell the truth, so I don't waste time lying unless it's worth it. Ex. : if you could just tell a cop : "Look I busted my headlight last week, but I haven't had time to replace it" and he just gave you a warning, would you feel the need to to tell him you hadn't noticed it, someone must have hit your car in the parking lot? I wouldn't bother if I could, but is telling the truth worth the hassle of going to court and paying a fine? Not in my books, because whether the cop believes my lie or not, noone is hurt ( except for maybe the county, who is deprived of a $150 that they could waste as well as my tax dollars are ).
A computer is a tool. Internet access is a problematic tool, because it's a gateway to so much. What are you really worried about? Kids looking at porn? What, and you never looked at porn? Never masturbated? If you say no, you're full of shit. Being exposed to violence/hateful themes, etc? That's around kids every day. Same for drugs. So, unless I'm missing something, the only thing that kids are exposed to on the internet that isn't around regularly, are sexual predators. And those are there in the real world too. Basically, the only thing I would be worried about are the people that they might interact with online. But if you haven't explained to them that are people in the world that would like to hurt them, and that they need to be careful in who they trust, then they're not equipped to walk down to the cornerstore, let alone do anything else.
So the same basics that apply to the real world apply online. And please don't rob your children of a chance to mature in a healthy, human, responsible manner. If you're going to worry about anything, get on them about their grades, try to interest them in science, art, nature, etc.
If they want to look at pictures of naked chicks, or read about guns, drugs, whatever, don't sweat it. ( hell, the eleven year old is probably just looking up pictures of guy/girl he/she thinks is cute/smart/cool/whatever and doesn't want dad to know because he/she's embarrassed ). In my opinion, expose children to the world, let them read, talk to them, and most of all : tell and show them what you think, and then let them make up their own minds.
PC moderators can suck my White pierced, tattooed dick. If you think pride == hate, s/dick/Aryan meat mallet/g.
When I was a kid, my parents were more concerned with my awareness of the fact that internet information can be misleading and incorrect.
g 2.com/r g.net/
I briefly went through a stage where the sudden availability of contraban information was a novelty, and I eagerly accumulated a stockpile of useless drivel from the 'anarchists cookbook' and similar web publications, but when I realized that my parents really didnt care, I lost interest.
The web can be extremely useful and informative, and the nature of the content that teenagers view is very much an extension of their level of maturity. My parents didnt establish any rules, and as long as my school work got done, the internet connection was mine to do with as I pleased as long as I wasnt doing anything illegal.
What finallly caused me to forsake the infantile obsession with contraban material was the discovery of content really worth exploring. When I discovered project gutenberg, I chose to spend my time reading classics online rather than doing something silly and unproductive.
The advice I have to give is this: parents who want their children to browse the web responsibly should help their children find good web sites with meaningful content that can help them expand their interests. As soon as something interesting and productive becomes available, most people lose interest in something that is purportedly 'taboo'.
Additionally, if you stress that certain content is associated with social stigma, it is almost definitely going to arouse curiousity. Parents who want to discourage their children from viewing pornographic content should explain to their children the nature of real, meaningful, intrapersonal relationships, and let them see for themselves that pornographic content is a perversion, and an assanine waste of time.
Parents who want to provide their children with good internet resources that will help kids expand intellect and interests include:
http://ibiblio.org/
http://lii.org/
http://h2
http://www.everypoet.com/
http://gutenbe
Therefore, I reciprocated the same level of respect back onto them.
I am given complete privacy with my own computers as I have demonstrated a level of maturity required to be able to handle such a responsibility.
I look at porn. So what?
I know parents who treat their kids like dirt and deny them every freedom, as if they (the parents) were Hitler. Their kids hate their parent's guts and look forward to going onto college to get the hell away from their homes.
I know one kid who is so oppressed that he contemplated finding ways to kill or at least seriously harm his parents. We talked him out of it to a point where he is going to just frame his mom for some crime (well, she deserves it) when he goes to college (on scholarships, just to show the independence he has from his parents).
While I do understand that you feel compelled to restrict your childrens access to information , I think it is dam stupid . ;-) .I think I also locked my self in the bathroom for a couple of hours when the first told me.I also contemplated do a lot of stuff that should not be mentioned in public forums. To be honest I was obsessed with computers (school wasnt working so well for me , and the computer was my escape).
1)If you are worried about pornography ; dont be . Pornography is out there. If they really want porn they dont have to realy on the internet to get it . Although it can be an excellent money saver
2)Open door policy? A lot of what people do on the internet can be compared to mail , and telephone of past . Unless you think all parents should read there childrens mail and tap there phones (Note : May be illegal to do that) then let them have some privacy
) Children are people as well . You have no right to limmit there access to information.
)Any rules are stupid. At one point in my child hood (not to long ago) my parents attempted to restrict what I did on the computer and when I could . This simply resulted in me putting a BIOS password on the machine (pre-emptively) and sneeking around the rules . It also resulted in anything they wanted to do with/ask me meeting with stiff resistance. E.g. "How was school?" , "I'm not telling you"
In response to your meta-question . Yes and no . You seem like a fairly up tight over protective sort of person ; as sutch if I were your child there is no way in hell I'm telling you WTF I was doing on the computer .
Isn't this something that Slashdot should not be attempting to answer? How many of the slashdot readers can say that they are successfully raising a child? How many can say to this parent what they did correctly?
Personally, I wouldn't consult slashdot for anything family related. I think it's just plain silly to ask a bunch of nerds and geeks like me about how to raise your kid. It's like asking your kids what you should do with their computer.
This is not an appropriate ask slashdot topic.
in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
Yes! Protect them from virtual dangers (those scary pixels!) by beating them!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
The guy made a statement about his control of the home network. You responded by personally attacking him, basically calling him a tight-assed bastard... shame on you. He makes a VERY important point... his hardware, his electricity, his rules; I happen to think he's got every right to do this.
Here's a point you're missing; he's responsible for that network.
That's right... his house, his hardware, his electricity, HIS RESPONSIBILITY, including legally. The last thing I want is the RIAA/MPAA/FBI coming to my door because I gave my teen a little too much freedom on his computer. How many thousands did that little girl's mother have to pay because she was downloading music? I know you know the story I'm talking about, discussed ad nauseum here on Slashdot.
I have no problem letting my kids learn. I let them fall, skin their knees (my wife has a little trouble with this), even occasionally burn themselves, after all, the two best teachers are pain and loss of money. What I will not do is sit back while they fill their minds with stuff they may or may not be ready to handle, or while they get chatted up by some pedophile. And don't even give me that "you're just a paranoid old man" crap... Until you've done the number of sexual assault exams I have (including pediatric), you can sit down and be quiet.
My kids have met "big brother," and he is me. I'm not overprotective, just watchful. If I see them access something inappropriate, I may not say anything; I may just watch to see what they do. They best measure of your personal ethos and integrity is what you do when you think nobody is watching.
Once your kids have proven themselves, consider turning them loose... but trust is EARNED, folks.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
The problem I have with your post, is that it implictly claims that Islam is evil.
I do not agree. The poster was being ironic; the only people who say Hussein is evil are Bush and his cronies, usually as a backpeddling justification for murdering his kids.
In reality nobody, or at least nearly nobody, is evil. Evil in the classic movie-villain sense is "I'm bad, and I like it." It's the antagonist dressed in black and torturing, killing, and maiming because he's *evil* and that's *just what he does*.
In real life evil is harder to find. Real people generally consider themselves good. Bin Laden, for example, is clearly not evil. He is working from a dissagreeable (and one might even say faulty) perspective. Saddam Hussein is not evil, he has different priorities and (yes) different beliefs from we the observers. But I'm sure HE believes he is good and doing the right thing, at least most of the time.
The poster was saying, I think, amounts to "What I do is evil? Funny, I don't feel evil." Or something like that.
To get back on topic somewhat: Pornography is evil like Saddam is evil, which is to say it isn't. Hell, people can't even agree over whether pornograhy is *bad*, much less evil.
In no way is any of the above commentary on Islam or any religion, except where it implicitly insults all christians. Didn't catch that? That's the trouble with implicit satements...
I want my Cowboyneal
So, in that case, it can quite easily be classified as evil as it strictly deals with instant, responsibility free pleasure and not with the finer more complex points in life like relationships with other people (which is pretty much what life is all about).
Maybe that's what your life is about, but not everybody's. Some people like porn (even women), others don't. And how can you possibly consider instant, responsibility free pleasure evil?
Have you tried Linux yet?
My wife is a consenting adult, whom I trust completely. That trust has been built over a period of years, and is mutual. Having spent birthdays, holidays, etc apart due to miltary duties for months and months, we've both had ample opportunity to violate our marriage vows, and we have not. She can be hard-core, and is more than able to take care of herself (I've watched her shoot guys down... brutal.) I would never snoop on my wife, because we have built up that trust, and because she is MORE than capable of thinking and reasoning for herself.
That, my friend, is the difference between a consenting adult and a minor child. Why is there an age of consent? It's because younger children and teens generally don't have the ability, breadth of experience, or perspective to assent to certain activities. This is why slime like NAMBLA are so fundamentally wrong. A child cannot consent to activities like they advocate, because they cannot adequately appreciate and understand the ramifications of those activities.
My wife is of the same mind on this matter, by the way. I prefer to think of myself as a watchful guardian rather than a "snoop" (it's all semantics anyway). If I'm not there to help them interpret what they see, then who will be? Who will love them enough to help them understand? Who will address the tough questions with them? (and thanks to open communication and a little technology, I'll be able to anticipate some of those critical conversations).
It's all good, my young friend, and it's an absolutely beneficient effort with nothing less than their best interests at heart... A labor of love, if you will.
It would be a lot easier for me to say "sure, go ahead and do whatever the hell you want..." but I love them too much to do that. They may not appreciate it at the time (I certainly didn't), but God willing, they may eventually come to be thankful for all those hours and all that effort.
It took me until my late 20's to realize exactly how hard my parents had worked to make me a quality human being, and I feel that it's my parental obligation to return the favor with my own children.
You may disagree, of course.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
The problem here is defining what is bad for someone. Here some simple guidelines are probably safest. Just about any healthy teenager is going to want to check out pornography at some point. To deny this is at best unrealistic or at worst an outright lie, and any kid with a normal quota of common sense is quite capable of perceiving that you are lying if you claim it's "bad" for them.
I guess the thing is to not let any behaviour get obsessive. Sure, check your logs, but leave some leeway for exploration.
Perhaps an injection of cynicism might help: educate your kids into asking themselves what people are asking of them.
Face facts: all of these things exist and are real. You cannot shield or shelter your children from anything that is real. Eventually they will come in contact with some or all of these "hidden, naughty, inappropriate" ideas, images, and contacts. So as a parent, you have a choice: you can teach them to think for themselves, and introduce them over time to some of these things, guiding them and helping them to develop their own ideas about ethics, morality, and justice. Or, you can try to shield them until they inevitably leave your care. This can succeed or fail; it's difficult to know which has worse consequences. In one case, you have a child - now an adult - still incapable of dealing with the world around him or her, frightened and vulnerable with no independent thinking ability. In the other, you have a child - now an adult - with an unhealthy fascination and/or shame at knowing the existence of these things. And since you've failed to shield them from this dangerous knowledge, they've acquired it instead from others - riddled no doubt with inaccuracies and colored by fear of discovery. Is that any way for a 25-year-old to live? This will be your child...
In short, nothing on the Internet is any more or less dangerous than the real-world counterparts that so worried parents 20, 50, or 500 years ago. There's more of it, it's more accessible, and it's centralized. But there's nothing new here. Any parenting philosophy you have in the physical world can and should be applied as-is in the virtual world. And I hope for the sake of society and your own children's happiness that it's one of openness, honesty, and independence. Since nearly all children survive physically to adulthood today, your main function as a parent is to prepare your children mentally. Hiding reality will not serve them well.
I was online very early - starting with CompuServe in 1984 when we rotated back to the States. At home and a buddies house with Commodores, Tandys, and an Apple II. We hacked everything we could and yeah, ultimately got busted by the MIBs who (fortunately) just gave us a warning. ASCII pr0n wasn't exactly what the doctor ordered, so the magazine variety had to suffice. I BBSed with a bunch of other folks, met a bunch of folks online - some I met IRL, others not.
The big bad Internet is just one of a myriad of tools that people use to communicate. It's replaced the phone for most teens I know. What you do online does not necessarily reflect who you are or what you're going to be. I remember folks spewing warnings about the evil of AD&D when I was a teen, the total overcompensation for it and raid of my personal library, the destruction (at a book burning sponsored by the Catholic Church) of 2 years of gaming notes and characters and worldbuilding and books. All in the name of "protecting me" from an evil influence. I think a lot of parents act *exactly* the same way about computing and the Internet.
My parents trusted me; every now and then I betrayed that trust and did something incredibly stupid and dangerous and was punished for it if I got caught. The majority of the time I did get caught. As a general rule, I followed my parents' guidelines. I didn't consider them unreasonable. I think I turned out okay so far: love my IT job, happy with my $, happy with my friends & family.
I smoked cigarettes, I drank alcohol. It was another time (I graduated from HS in '87) and we spent my early adolescence stationed in Spain - 3 years. Alcohol was freely available, I had a lot of money (for a junior high and high school kid) from various entrepreneurial activities. My buddies and I ate breakfast in a neighborhood bar before school and had a few beers there and played video games after school. When I got back to the States I got in trouble for both smoking and drinking, but my parents blew it off - they'd rather have me drinking at home under supervision than binging at some party. I learned moderation from my Mom.
As a parent, you certainly can shape the kind of person your kid is going to be - for good and for ill. But you are not the only influence on their life and certainly in adolescence aren't the most important one - not to them anyway.
The best thing you can do is spend time with your kids; I'm not talking hours and hours of mutually boring 'hanging out' or Interrogation 101. But spend some quality time with them, even if it's just a few minutes a day, to ask how they are, how stuff is going. Not a quiz on what they're learning, but ask them about stuff they're interested in - things important to them, how they fit in at school, gauge how happy or bummed they are, etc. Don't be all judgemental or you'll lose a fragile rapport.
In other words, treat them like a human fucking being and SHOW them you respect them by listening to them. You don't have to agree with them, just *listen*. Mete out discipline as needed.
Of course, the shoe is on the other foot too.
Are you on drugs or are you a complete fucking moron? Which one? Both?
Oh, and for your information, Bin Laden is evil too. As is anyone who purposely targets civilians. Yes, that makes the IRA evil, too.
-- Will program for bandwidth
I contest that Donald Rumsfeld IS pure evil. You just have to look at ANY video with him in it and you can tell. You can see how he is drunken with power, and insane with his own ego. I'm no Bush basher like some, he's an OK guy, but Rummy is SATAN! And before you troll me, please actually look at a video clip of him.
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
I'm sure we'll get the entire spectrum of views on parenting here. Everyone wants to convince everyone else that their approach (or their parent's approach) is the best/worst/whatever.
;)
Let me jump in, then
So my parents robbed me of my Human Right to Rebellion. Any time I tried something "forbidden," they merely co-opted it, and took the thrill out of it.
Starting with building fires (as an eight year old), I was given full permission to build fires, with a few constraints. Dad taught me how to kindle a good blaze with only a single match and twigs. While I wasn't strictly forbidden from using paper, lighter fluid, plastic, or candles, they were regarded as being beneath contempt. I wasn't going to stoop to that level. Not even to shock my parents. Well, with all that, I had to give up my dream of becoming an arsonist.
So I got caught sneaking some wine a few years later. So Dad split a beer with me. Not long after, he mixed up some martinis. Did I want to drink? OK. I could, but it had to be at home, or I had to promise to call for a ride home if I were somewhere else. That was much too reasonable to rebel against, and, to this day, I have failed to be an alcoholic.
Then I wanted to stay out late with friends, or on a date, or something. This was the clincher -- I knew they couldn't come up with a reasonable way of relinquishing control. But they did. OK. I could do it. They were counting on me to be responsible, not get arrested, not get anyone pregnant, not get in trouble. But if I did, I shouldn't hesistate to call on them, and they'd pay my bail, rescue me, or do what they could to help out. Damn! Defeated again.
Then again, I had a college friend whose father used to beat him with a heavy oak dowell anytime he ever broke a rule. Now there was a kid who didn't know the meaning of "limits" when it came to drinking, smoking dope, and getting in trouble. Still, he got it out his system, and today we're pretty much both responsible (hah!) citizens. So ya never know.
Suggest appropriate behaviour, and the consequences of poor behaviour while using the tool, and let them make their own decisions. They will satisfy *any* curiosity regardless of what restrictions you think are worth implementing. Let them be free.
I've known them all, and honor students, giften musicians and (in Canada) Air/Army/Sea Cadets or Boy/Girl scouts get just as drunk and have just as much sex as every other teenager.
Then I guess you don't know me yet. Honest to goodness Eagle Scout, musician, and now I can add teacher to the list.
and you have to accept the fact that they WILL try drinking,
Tried it. Age 19. Didn't like it.
Tried it again. Age 21. Liked it only for social occasions.
Still haven't ever been drunk.
they WILL have sex
Nope. In a relationship right now, and I'm waiting. One of the things I learned from my family was to let love grow rather than just make it.
and chances are they will try drugs
Got me there. Cafeene, all the way.
These are just things kids do in high school, and your restrictivness and controlling attitude may actually encourage these things to happen.
Yea, and look where it got me now. Professional teacher in a foreign country. What a waste of a life, huh?
About the point you make about your kids being capable of having those conversations at your own level:
Teenagers often seem like they think they're smarter than their parents. Realistically, they probably are. Woh hold on fogie, back off the keys and let me finish:
You have experience, they have a young mind runnin at full steam (assuming they aren't dumbed down by ADHD "cures"). Play them at chess, and watch how quickly they learn to beat you.
Ahem, the lesson is. Teach them your experience, but understanding they aren't 3 anymore and they deserve the same explanation you do. Not only that, but they have the same bullshit filters you do. Yes, they won't believe things until you prove them now. "Because I said so" loses all meaning at about the age of 12, when they start learning how to avoid you.
Actually the truly evil person just wants what s/he wants and doesn't much care about what anyone else feels about it.
If you want to know why pornography is evil then just think about it from the point of view of the photographic objects. Imagine that was you, how degraded would you feel if you were the subject of those pictures. What kind of psycological defences would you have to put up just to get up in the morning? Kind of makes you understand why so many people in the porn industry are addicts doesn't it?
As for Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, they are actually perfect examples of evil men, and Saddam has been known to execute the occasional relative himself, they are selfish, uncaring about others welfare, and malevolent. But then again, so is George W. Bush.
One last thing, every monster in history Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Napolean, Attila the Hun, Gengis Kahn, John Dillinger, Julius Ceaser, all of them, could honestly say that they didn't feel evil. Many of them felt that they were engaged in a noble enterprise. This is called self-delusion.
Automatic filtering and even surveillance is not about taking responsibility; it's about enforcement of rules. Law enforcement already takes care of that part. Those of us who say parents need to take more responsibility don't want another layer of enforcement. We want parents to do what only parents can do.
It is precisely the negligent tactic of caring about your own duties under the law before caring about your child's well-being that is the cause of so many problems.
If you have an open discussion with trust, integrity, and mutual respect, then your child will come to you crying or asking for advice the first time they encounter something that may frighten or confuse them. If you filter and forbid, they will keep it to themselves for fear of being accused of having broken the rules. Take your pick.
I for one welcome our new SCOviet Russian overlords to whom all our base are belong.
I'm 15-year-old girl and I often find that because, stereotypically, younger people understand new technology better, its been a lot harder for my mum to keep tabs on my sister and my internet use.
She used to try password protect the browser, or set up passwords for logging in. But we knew our shit and found holes around the passwords all the time -- whether that involved fiddling with the registry or finding the piece of paper where she wrote our internet accounts password.
She tried this only so many times before she gave up.
She tried to read our chat logs, and when we realised what she was doing, we p/w protected the files.
And then recently my sister was fishing through our internet history and found that our own MOTHER had been surfing porn sites. Weird fetish ones. Involving old men.
And when our mother tried to tell us that the sites just "popped up", we pointed to the google searches she had made.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that sometimes the kids end up monitoring the parents. I don't expect this to happen so much in the future, but it happens now.
I think in the future we'll just view the internet as an alternative to tv. When my mum was little she used to get in trouble for watching television in the morning. Nowadays no one cares if you watch it in the morning. At home we aren't really allowed to go on the net in the morning, but I can expect it to be fine when I have my own kids. The technology won't be so new and scary. Parents won't get scared by reading over-hyped newspaper articles, they will have experience to go by on.
I *do* think that putting the computer in a bedroom is a bad idea. Its a lot easier to stay on the net till 3am when it is in your room. But do make sure you put the computer somewhere else where they have privacy. Your kids are people too. People don't like their personal lives being exposed to the authorities.
If you are scared your kids are going to be doing something they should not, try to get them to understand what is 'right' and 'wrong' and why so. Get them to have morals and they will feel bad when they do the wrong thing. Some of the most 'wild' kids I know my age have overly strict parents. They get joy from doing what they're not supposed to be because it makes them feel in control. If you can leave your kids in control and still make them understand you make your rules for a reason (to guide them and not just to be a complete and utter fascist).
Oh and btw, most kids over 11 can tell if they are talking to a pedophile or not. There is an obvious difference between a teenager and an adult trying to impersonate a teenager.
I read a few posts about parent's thinking they have the right to read emails between their kids and their sweethearts. I disagree. As long as they are not supposed to read my snail mail, I don't believe they are allowed to read my email.
If you can't trust what your kids are doing, you seriously need to work on building some trust. I know that if my father saw me reading an email and asked me what it was about, I'd let him read it. Because I could see he needed confirmation I wasn't doing something I wasn't meant to be. Then again, if that email had 'naughty' things in there, my dad would just accept it as a growing up thing. I'm a teenager. He will not blow things out of proportion because of a few titties on the screen.
But if he tried snooping while I wasn't looking, I'd tell him where to shove it. Give your kids the same respect you want from them. As I said before, they might be little people, but they are still people. A bit more innocent maybe. But its only a matter of time before they lose their innocence. You should try cushion their fall as much as possible. Don't keep them in a bubble until they move out. They won't know how to deal with the world. Allow them to grow 'streetwise' so they aren't as likely to be screwed over in early adulthood.
This was a bit 'all over the place', sorry about that.
This analogy has been used a few times before....However its not strictly true, On the net you can visit the seedier areas relativly safely, at least physically! Indeed it could be argued that this can be a good thing at least for older children 's education... but as has been said many times in this thread there is nothing that compares with a proper education from one's parents, and as a parent of 2 boys 13 and 15, all I can hope is that they are old enought to know what they are doing ... afterall it wasn't so long ago that boys of this age when off to war......... as a postscript I checked the eldests logs the other day and found some (fortunately, softcore) porn sites, as a responsible parent I showed him how to erase his logs and clear his files properly much as my father at a similar age advised I wear a condom. A mature discussion is I feel much more likely to result in him informing me if anything inappropriate occurs.
I control the router. I read the logs. When they turn 18, if they are still living in my house, we'll discuss it. Until then, what I say goes.
You sound a lot like my father, though the issue of computers never came up, since I turned 18 in 1972.
I haven't spoken to him in over 30 years. Perhaps you regard this as an example of successful parenting.
Perhaps you'll succeed equally well with your kids.
Tech Public Policy stuff
There's darker moments in Anglo-Saxon history. I wouldn't say Hussein is misunderstood, but that he justifies his own actions. We, at this point of our civilization find his actions to be unjustifiable. But, take a look in our history of civilization and you'll see large moments in time that Hussein would fit right in. Iraq is simply in a different time civilization wise (don't let the modern trappings of materialism distract you), and eventually they will advance to the next stage. Now that we're the catalyst for their advancement, I sincerely hope they're able to move on to the next stage, but I fear they won't be and they'll actually go backwards, but I've been wrong before.
As for using weapons of mass destruction on his own people, the people were rebels attempting a coup. The US and other governments have done similar (see Waco, TX and the Civil War), and the US is confirmed to have used military and civilian personnel for testing of chemical and radioactive substances.
In a democratic government (of which both the US and Britain are), there are no civilians. Though you may choose to not carry a gun, the bottom line is that we elected our leaders. Therefore, we are responsible for their actions. Since bin Laden (or the IRA) has no hope of defeating a conventional military, their only way of fighting is to convince the people ultimately in charge of that military that it's not worth it. Electing a leader and designating the most well equipped, trained and funded among us to be our soldiers neither absolves us of their actions nor protects us from retribution.
Ultimately, it is we the people that dictate policy and our government - and that the enemy has a conflict with...why shouldn't they attack us? Because we have a mighty miltary force who we'd rather them attack?
I understand that, as a parent, it's really hard to deal with the fact that your kids are developing hormones and may like to look at porn. The bigger, more legitimate worry is that they might start joining chat rooms and talking with people that might harm them.
As for the first item, I'd suggest you get over it. It's natural for kids to want to look at porn, and forbidding them isn't going to stop them from looking at it, it simply means they'll look for another way you simply don't know about, or go over to their friend's house and do it there.
As for the second point, simply explain to your kids that the same rules that apply to not taking rides from strangers applies to the Internet as well, and that they aren't to be giving out their personal information, etc.
Also, as far as surfing the internet goes, remember: if they're at home entertaining themeselves on the internet, at least they're not out doing other things that are guaranteed to do them physical harm (insert horrible mental image here.) Looking at sex is entirely different than having it.
My parents used to come down hard on my brother for using the internet to surf for porn, but I pointed out the very same things to them. He became angry and rebellious, but instead of stopping, simply found other routes, just as I predicted. He even went so far as to take the family car joy-riding a couple of times, which got him into worse trouble.
My parents finally decided to try things the other way. They sat him down, explained what their concerns were to him, and then - wonder of wonders - told him that they'd decided to trust him with the responsibility as long as he promised to be careful. They let him take the car out.
My parents found out later that, as he was filling the car up with gas, he proudly told the store clerk that he had the coolest parents in the world. And he did his best to not abuse their trust from that day on - because they treated him like an adult.
"Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
Would you consider the Bombing of Hiroshima to be terrorism? You could say we weren't 'deliberately' killing civilians, but surely you wouldn't argue that we didn't know a fuck of a lot of innocent people would die if we nuked a city. Or do you take the Israeli view that it doesn't matter if civilians die as long as you were trying to kill someone else and they just happened to be in your way?
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I must say I couldn't agree more.
My children are relatively grown up now (21 and 18) and I have only had internet access for them for the past 4 years or so - so the issue has never really arisen. I have no idea whether they have ever visited porn sites, but I would suspect its un-likely - but even if they had, so what.
The thing that worried me the most was with the youngest (daughter) and chat rooms. We explained the danger - but after that let her get on with it.
The important thing was, that we were always around for advice. As a result, both offspring are able to use the internet as a research tool, feel reasonably relaxed about buying things when appropriate through the net, and use instant messaging as a tool (the other evening I was conversing with my daughter 250 miles away at university about an experiment she had been doing with strain guages and whetstone bridges)
I've always found it to be very strange when people talk about wanting to protect children from certain kinds of things, like porn for example, or violent movies, or "bad" words especially. When I was growing up I never could figure out exactly what it was that I was being protected from. I did of course see and hear everything that I was supposed to be shielded from. Since I'm a human being and not a walking tape recorder I was no more affected by it than an older person would be.
Now that I'm in my 30's I've come to realize that the motivation that drives parents and society itself to engage in information control and censorship is not that any young people will be harmed by the things we hide from them, but that we are somehow uncomfortable with the idea of them seeing certain things. The whole protection bit is just a post-hoc justification.
The truth is that surfing the web is about as safe an activity as can be imagined. The real dangers lie outside in the real world, not in cyberspace. Now to be fair there are predators online, both sexual and financial. But if you haven't seen to it that your kid is street smart enough to identify and avoid them then you're just a piss-poor parent.
If you feel uncomfortable about the idea that your children might see certain things online then maybe you should investigate why you feel that way, because it sure as hell isn't because they're going to be damaged in some way from seeing it. A person would have to be force-fed something on a continual basis for an extended period for it to have an effect upon them.
Young people are human beings, not tape recorders and not pets with the power of speech. Their view of the world is formed from the conclusions they reach based upon the sum total of their experiences. The only real difference is in how much experience they have to draw from. By the time they are old enough to know how to use a computer, the basic nature of who they are is already in place. By the time they're teenagers they're basically as grown as someone can be without having been out on their own. There is not special transformation which takes place on the eve of their 18th (or 21st, or you name it) birthday whereby they are suddenly transformed from being an malleable infant into a mature adult.
I'm starting to ramble here. Really what I'm trying to say is that there isn't anything you need to protect your children from seeing or hearing because none of it is going to affect them in any special way. Also it isn't like you can protect them from the things you don't want them to find out about unless you lock them in a closet, and if you think that is a good idea please get psychiatric help soon.
Childhood is more of a cultural construct than anything else, at least how childhood is understood in our culture. The lies and deceit that children have to deal with is nothing short of criminal. I don't know about you, but I didn't much like being lied to when I was a kid. What made it worse is that the lies that are told are so pathetically transparent that I'm amazed anyone is fooled. I kept thinking that there must be something I was missing, some piece in the puzzle that would make the things I was being told make sense. It wasn't until I realized that most people were idiots that I understood that the way children are treated is simply an extension of that stupidity.
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
If someone wanted to take naked pictures of me, it would make me feel pretty fucking good. But that's beside the point.
The point is, people choose to be in those images. A lot of times, they look like they are having a lot of fun. Believe it or not, but some people actually like having other people appreciate the way they look. Some women enjoy the power it gives them. And, shock of shocks, some women enjoy sex and what's more, some women actually are sexually aroused by posing naked!!!!!. Hard to believe I know.
But anyway, lets take your logical assertion to the extreme. What you are saying, is that paying people to do something that harms them in some way is evil. Well then doesn't that the entire US Military totally evil? I mean, I'd much rather be objectified then dead.
Hmm... reading the rest of your post, you might agree with me. But that still doesn't change the fact that all of the women in porn are there because they chose to be, and while some may feel dirty, most don't.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Saddam was delusional to the end. Not insane, but really more the way Bush is. He was (by choice) surrounded by Yes-men, and he avoided thinking about the negatives. It worked pretty well until he went up against another group of self-deluding morons with a bigger army. I don't believe that Saddam thought he was evil. He thought he was doing what he needed to to unite a racially and ethnically and religiously divided nation. He didn't know what he was doing was wrong, and he didn't know it wouldn't work.
George Bernard Shaw, IIRC said "The rational man adapts to the world, the irrational man tries to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress is dependant on irrational men". I used to love that quote. But Saddam and Bush are both irrational, and they have both changed the world. I don't know if I would call it progress.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Go move to Saudi Arabia then. You might like it better over there.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
I think it might sound stupid, but what is it that you really want? Do you just want your children to never see porn? To not behave badly because of porn? To understand what society expects behavior wise so they're not outcasted?
At core, part of growing up is knowing how to survive. By this, I mean knowing things that can harm you directly (poison, pointy sticks, fire, drugs) and indirectly (murder (being murdered yourself or being arrested), possibly sex (unwanted children), drugs (arrest, dirty needles, etc)). If your point is solely to provide them with this information, then you actually *want* to teach your children porn so they know what can hurt them.
If you want to teach them enough to function in society like sheep (ie, doing actions without reasons), you'll certainly want to ban them from porn. You might do it to if you believe seeing porn will desensitize them from being able to function properly in society and more importantly a monogamous relationship.
My personal belief is that you really should talk your children like adults. By this, I mean you should try to explain to them all these things that would make you want to ban them from things. Yes, children aren't fully adults, but they will be adults soon. If nothing else, you need to discuss with them your beliefs. But, by the time they're 10 even, it's well beyond the point that you can so strongly integrate ideas into their psyche about the evils of something without a rational or emotional justification.
And rational justifications last the longest. The reason is of course because most people are rational beings. As such, the best thing you can do is speak to them on these terms. You're not trying to trick them into doing what's right, after all. You're trying to imprint your beliefs upon them because you've argued with yourself over why you believe the things you do (right?). And it won't be a perfect imprint. Pushing it won't help. Denying their right to make decisions will just breed resentment.
In summary, I'd suggest you try at an early age to teach them about life, from sex to death. By this, I mean you should describe their functions in life, not necessarily details. At the same time, you can convey the social normals (as you invariably do) as you progress through life. Language and culture are mostly learned through imitation. Imitation alone leaves only a hollow appearance, so please try to fill that shell well.
You can't trust your children to act responsibly at 18 if you haven't trusted them before.
Face it: Your children will grow up, you can not be there to watch over them every minute of their lives. They WILL have to learn to make their own decisions and take responsibility - learning this involves the opportunity to make bad decisions.
The internet is a relatively safe world (fearmongering about paedophiles notwithstanding) and if you cannot trust them with a modem, you'll never be able to trust them with a car, or in a liqour store - or with choosing a life partner. Tell them about the dangers - and why they are dangers. Tell them that paedophiles are bad people, and that they should never, under any circumstance, meet anyone they only know over the internet. Tell them that porn may be interesting, but real women aren't like that. Tell them what real women think of boys who spend lots of time on porn. Tell them that they'll have to act respectfully if they want others to respect them. Tell them to never give out their phone number, address or other information. Tell them that fraud is fraud, even on the internet.
Maybe it'll help, but ultimately it's up to your kids, not you. It's their life and you can prepare them for it, but you cannot live it for them.
As the leader of a country, he is responsible for all of the people of the country. Whether they are related or not, they are 'his' people. If he wants to evade responsibility for them, then he should let them split off into a separate country. Still. even as citizens of a different country, it would have still been a war crime to gass entire cities (and a crime against humanity in either case).
I mean they were in the middle of uprising or whatever.
If you follow that logic, then the British government would be justified gassing Irish Catholics (and Bush might even be justified in gassing democrats). Even in war, there are rules which our society has drawn up. In either case, he has violated the rules of humanity which were codified after WW2..
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
As someone who had a hell of a childhood and was beset by complexes (handicapped from birth) and loneliness (my father died when I was 9 and my mother's later boyfriend treated me like a dog), I can just say there are some things you should know and do if you're interested in your childrens well being:
1.Talk to them. It sound so simple, doesn't it? But is it? We all know as adults just how difficult the modern world is and how litttle time we have, but that overdone cliche about spending quality time with your children is damn important. Controlling your kids too much will make them fear you and lose your trust. Show them that you love them and are interested in their lives. Make them feel like home is a place of warmth and saftey and that you will protect them with everything you've got.
2.Treat them like real human beings. There are so many guides that advocate rules and strict parenting, but neglect the fact that your children are real human beings with their own personalities and feelings. Treating them with respect (privacy is important for them too) will help them when the time comes on the internet that some sicko doesn't treat them with respect.
3.Have a set of rules about what you can and will accept. This might seem paradoxial to what I said above, but it isn't. If you explain to your children why you set those rules instead of just being the parental nazi, they will be more likely to follow them. Having rules is important, very important, in that it shows children to realise and know what other people's limits are i.e. they realise as well that you are in fact a real person.
4.Never break their trust. This can be damn difficult, but it is damn important. Don't be too harsh if they break a rule or do something stupid. Show them you're angry or worried (yell if you need to, penalise them in a SMALL way if need be i.e. one week no internet or extra task around the house) but don't leave it at that. Talk to them afterward to show you're still interested. Learn to forgive your kids for breaking rules, and show them that it's ok. We all know how difficult and unforgiving life and society are. They don't need that at home as well, because then there's no difference between home and the wild for them.
Well, I have had Internet access since I was 12, been in front of computers blowing shit up since far before that, and getting my hands into as much computer knowledge as I can ever since I was 4.
Yeah, as I teen I drooled over nude girls on the net, I played some of the most violent games ever created, and I spent hours upon sleepless hours in my room, with the door shut, tinkering with code, stroking my penis, having sex with my girlfriends(yes, geeks get girls), and writing hot steamy letters love letters that I never feared my mother would dare read.
And she never did, she respected my privacy, she always has, and she always will. She knew what I was doing some nights, she didn't mind. I wasn't exploiting poor women of the net, I was venting sexual frustration, I wasn't doing drugs, I was chugging coffee, I wasn't hacking AOLer's accounts, I was learning python. and I wasn't getting the girl pregnant, I always wore a rubber.
This is what I did as a kid, and I am sure I am not alone. Where did it get me? I graduated high school with honors, went to college, got a job as a network admin, and will be married next summer. I have a clean civil record, aside from numerous speeding tickets, am generally kind to strangers as long as they are as courteous to me as I try to be to them, and I even teach 12 years old basic programming in my spare time.
I got where I am today being a so called, bad kid, because my parents understood that I wasn't being bad, I was being responsible, given my age, and they trusted, and respected me.
Your kids are never going to grow up if you keep making them be 12 all their life. They can make their own choices, it won't get them killed, unless you raised a real moron.
Remember, easiest way to get a kid to do something, is to tell them not to. Also, might be worth mentioning that my parents were much strickter with my older sister, and regularly invaded her privacy. I turned out alright, and she spends most of her days looking through the world from the bottom of a bottle. Think about it.
That being said, no, I have no children, nor will I ever have any.
The computer my 11 year old daughter uses is connected to the net through a linux box running Squid, set up to log accesses. It also has VNC server on it. She knows that I have a history that she can't erase, and that I can look at her screen at any time from any computer at home or work without her knowing I'm doing it.
OK, this is the sort of stuff that we chafe when our employers do it to us. But I've found that it works well for us.
If you want to know why pornography is evil then just think about it from the point of view of the photographic objects. Imagine that was you, how degraded would you feel if you were the subject of those pictures. What kind of psycological defences would you have to put up just to get up in the morning?
This kind of flawed logic seems to be very common. You would feel degraded by being the subject of pornographic photos, therefore everybody would feel degraded by it, therefore pornography is bad.
The world isn't that simple. There are a lot of people who enjoy or seek out things that others consider degrading or even harmful. What one person finds degrading, another might find entertaining or even arousing. Neither side is wrong until they insist that everybody else must feel the same way.
I'm sure I'll get moderated as flamebait for this, but.... I hardly doubt anyone here has any advice that's either informed or from the perspective you're looking for.
By this I mean two simple things: most slashdot folks are likely 16 through 27 or so (I'd imagine, since they're likely to have the most free time), are extremely liberal (most liberal folks I know are of the "don't discipline your child, it might scar him - until he's a teenager, then start", and "let kids do what they want, they're intelligent" persuasion - which is not to say all are), and are more likely to not have a family than to have one.
All these conditions, in my mind, make any advice gotten here something you might not want to consider.
That being said, this 21 y/o father and husband thinks that if, by the time they're 12 or 13, and they're still lying to you, something was done wrong from the beginning. There's evidently a trust issue. Recalling back to the few years to my adolecense, I'd say that this lack of trust is likely due to the fact that they're alienated by you and/or see you as the enemy.
My experience is that if you're the enemy (and I don't just mean your child is upset with you for a couple days, I'm talking about long-term resentment and/or distrust), then it's most likely that you weren't open enough with them when they were younger, aren't open enough with them now, and communication lines need to be cut and re-laid. Tell them that you trust them. Let them know that they've got someone they can talk to if they need to. Be interested in -them-, and care about the things they do. This means spend time with them if they'll allow it. Develop a report with them more sophisticated than the simple "this is how my day was" kind of conversation. You'll thank yourself later.
As for the actual guidelines that I'd suggest (from a fairly liberal-right kind of guy): back off for now, and develop that relationship. If that doesn't seem to be working, let them know that you don't appreciate it. Check their browser caches and/or history, if you're paranoid and/or want to be restrictive of their behavior: if they're bad, let them know about the harms/dangers of whatever they're doing, don't chastize them or punish them. By the time a kid reaches adolecense, they're likely too independent (depending on the kid) to be disciplined effectively, unless the infraction is quite severe. Dolling out punishments like cheap doctor's office candy just causes hatred towards you - they'll see you as being mean.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
It's one thing to have a contrary opinion of the law, but another entirely to accept it. It doesn't need to be done cheerfully, but it needs to be done both for your sake and your child's sake.
The point is, people choose to be in those images.
Many images you run across are taken on the sly, or are of quite young people. These things absolutely discust me. But to deny that this nasty, underground market exists is wrongheaded.
I have no problem with my children seeing porn. I do have a problem with them seeing porn of a 15 year old girl with two things stuck in her and the expression on her face says something like "what did I do to deserve this?" It's sick and morally repugnant.
Unfortunately, the line between "good" porn and "bad" porn isn't easy to draw. When is porn a real choice (note: getting $5 for being shown nude is probably not a choice, but more an act of despiration).
I do agree that passive monitoring is the way to go, unless it's necessary to intervene to avoid a clear and present danger. I feel no obligation, however, to "reason" with my children. A parent is an absolute monarch to his or children, with all the responsibilities that come with that. If a parent abdicates that responsibility, his or her children are already lost.
Despite dire warnings, we've gone ahead and put computers with Internet access into our adolescent (11, 12, and 15-year-old) childrens' rooms.
Well, if you ignored the dire warnings, I'm assuming it's because you trust your kids to be able to handle the privilege according to your guidelines.
Unfortunately we've had instances where all of these rules - especially that last one [don't lie to us about what you're doing] - have been broken, so now we are looking at getting more specific.
Well without knowing the specifics of how they broke the rule (Were they looking at porn sites? Were they getting frisky in online chat? Were they posting to racist newsgroups?), I can't say for sure what would be the right way to handle it. However, I can think of an easy fix to start with: yank the computers out of their rooms, and put one or two into a public room.
While one could argue that having access to the internet is becoming essential, having private, effectively unmonitored access is still clearly a privilege.
Jay (=
Lust is the driver behind pornography, Lust to have something (sex), which God created for intimacy inside of marriage outside of marriage. The lack of self-control in fulfilling that lust in any of many different ways (pornography is only one) removes our ability to enjoy the very thing we desire. It is our own evil desire (inside of every one of us) that feeds lust and draws us into the traps of pornography where nothing ever satisfies. Here is one of the problems with lust: When we attempt to fulfill this lust apart from Gods design it is like chasing the wind. One picture is never enough. Having sex once outside of marriage is never enough, nothing is enough. As soon as one desire is fulfilled another comes. God wants us to embrace our sexuality and accept the plan He had when He created sex. Battling lust is part of how we do that!
This is an interesting theory. Where's your evidence?
People don't say, "Only give your kids Internet access in public family areas" because it doesn't work as a monitoring tool. They give this advice because it is the best option.
Every person I know that has put Internet in their kids bedrooms has regretted it. Every person that only allows access in common family areas while the parents are home has been quite happy with the results. The kids don't seem to really mind either.
Pick up any book, talk to any psychologist or law enforcement officer, and they will tell you the same thing.
To ignore this advice is to ignore better, hard won, thinking on the matter.
There is no need for them to have private computers. Just as I wouldn't let them have private TVs, I wouldn't let them have private PCs. We have two computers in public places in the home. Their privacy is respected in that we don't stand over their shoulders, but their monitors are clearly visible to others in the home. The Internet is a wonderful place, but it can also be dangerous. It is my job as a parent to protect them from harm.
This is a thorny issue simply because people have varying moral views. I personally feel pornography in any form is more harmful than most believe and I choose to protect my children from it as much as possible. One way to do that is to control, at least in the home, the chances of them coming across such material.
"Sure son, you can toddle across that busy highway if you want... or use my circular saw... " "Sure honey, you can email and visit that pedofile for a while..."
Anyway, one thing to consider is that not all lessons can be learned by trial and error. Sometimes the consequences are just too severe and you have to learn by other ways...