Track People Using Their Mobile Phones

Richard W.M. Jones writes "A couple of new services have been rolled out in the UK recently which allow you to track people when they have their mobile phones turned on. Mapminder states 'It's important to know where your loved ones are for your own peace of mind'. 192.com asks 'Do you want to know where your children are?'. Of course the police have been able to do this for a long time, and evidence from mobile phone positions has been used in high-profile court cases in the UK. Silicon.com has an article."

Comments

Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[matth]

This is nice.. especially for kids. I wouldn't mind having it on a cell phone my kids keep in the car. Obviously there are going to be people who are going to abuse the system... but then these people probably already can... so.... Also, I'm not really worried, because... who wants to track me? I'm joe normal... but yes I know the whole invasion of privacy thing... but, at least here in the US, you CAN turn off GPS+ on your phone... even though it still works for 911..

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[pilot1]

You can turn GPS off, but it still works for 911?
If it works for 911, why couldn't it work for the government?
Sounds to me like it just turns the GPS off for most people..

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[Anonymous Coward]

who said anything about gps? this is the uk, the tracking system relies on knowing which tranmitter you are nearest to, in rural areas this can be many hundred of metres.

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[EvanED]

I would assume that it works local to your cell. Like if you press the keys 9-1-1-send, it will send your GPSed location. If you dial another number, it won't. To change that setting, unless there's a back door, would require physical access to the phone.

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[skinfitz]

The technology is not based on GPS but triangulates the position of the phone based on signal strength of masts.

Any phone can be tracked in this manner.

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not GPS at all. RTFA.

It's triangulation and position reporting based on the last cell that your phone was in. That's all. And the networks have been doing it for years as a side-effect of normal network activity. If the system didn't know where phones were in the country, how would they route calls to the correct base station?

Jeez, it's not hard, people...

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[EvanED]

RTFC(omment) to which I was replying. The superparent of my original post: "at least here in the US, you CAN turn off GPS+ on your phone... even though it still works for 911..". This discussion thread isn't directly about the article in question.

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[eyegor]

In the old days, that was true. Now there are infrastructure-based technologies that are being deployed that can accurately measure your location within about 100 yards. These systems usually use either the phase angle of arrival or the time difference of arrival method to determine your location and don't require a GPS in the phone. Your phone simply has to be turned on. GPS systems require a special phone and an unimpeded view of enough GPS satelites in order to function.

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[matth]

What this user said is true. GPS+ is simply a name the cell companies seem to have labeled on these phones.. it uses a GPS in the cell tower for cordinates (sometimes).... but the phone only knows where it is based on triangulation.. so while it says GPS.. it's NOT GPS...

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

These systems usually use either the phase angle of arrival or the time difference of arrival method to determine your location and don't require a GPS in the phone.

As far as I'm aware, they all still require multiple nearby base stations. Typically, there's not much directional about the comms at those stations; it would be unreliable anyway, given the nature of mobile phone signals. Hence you still need to triangulate, or use some variation on the theme. The question is more the accuracy with which you can do it.

IOWs, these services work much better in some places than others. Not a great surprise, given the nature of mobile phones, but worth pointing out, particularly if they're being advertised as a way to track missing things.

They also need the mobile to be switched on, of course. Again, pretty obvious, but a fairly significant drawback if it were claimed to be useful in cases of abduction.

(Incidentally, to the AC grandparent: at least on the major networks I've had experience with, the system hasn't automatically triangulated in the past. The switch to a new base station is indicated simply by the relative signal strengths on some sort of control channel; when the signal from your current station gets too weak, you switch to a more viable alternative if there's one available.)

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[mgv]

but, at least here in the US, you CAN turn off GPS+ on your phone... even though it still works for 911..

If you don't want to be tracked, dont have your phone on. Divert it to a paging service and carry a pager, and ring back at your leisure. Mobile phones are rapidly becoming trackable whenever they are on, and there will be nothing that can be done to avoid this.

Michael

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[eyegor]

The Time Difference of Arrival (TDOA) method doesn't require a directional antenna. It matches the incoming waveform for each signal in order to determine how long it took the signal to arrive and can derive a crossfix that way. The problem of course is that the timing between stations must be extremely accurate (luckily, it's possible to get a very accurate clock from a nearby GPS satellite).

The Angle of Arrival uses a set of three at each site spaced a quarter wavelength or so apart and the phase angle of the incoming signal gives a fairly accurate measurement of azimuth. If the incoming signal is close to the perpendicular of the antenna plane the most accuracy is obtained.
If the signal arrives near the parallel of the antenna plane, a very fat lobe is the result. In that event, a different antenna set can be used.

A detection is required on at least two sites in order to obtain an accurate crossfix. It's not uncommon to detect the signal on three sites. Field trials using a site separation of up to 20 miles have been surprisingly accurate.

The biggest hurdle to deploying any of the infrastructure-based systems is the high cost of backfitting all cell sites with the proper gean. Integration of the system into the E911 system is also an issue.

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[couch_potato]

Brilliant idea, Mike. Now I won't have to be so paranoid whenever I'm running those bags of weed around town.

You need a license to have a dog, but any fool can have a child.

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[cloudmaster]

How would the phase angle alone work to measure distance unless you were known to be N wavelengths away? Similarly, the time differential would only give the relative position - whether the device was getting closer or farther away. Both of those would only be useful if the initial position was known, which makes them pretty useless without some kind of triangulation.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, of course...

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[eyegor]

Phase angle is used as a means of determining the azimuth relative to the antenna at one of the receiving stations. You need a reception on two sites in order to obtain a crossfix. A reception on three sites will usually yield a fairly small error ellipse.

My knowledge of TDOA technologies is fairly limited (I used to be fairly involved at one time with AOA methods).

There have been discussions of using signal strength and a received angle as well as hybred AOA/TDOA reception for single site receptions. Those are obviously not as accurate as a multiple site reception.

Another method that can be used is a combination of an AOA reception on a single site and matching the received angle over time with geographic features (roads). This method works best when roads with constant speeds and limited opportunities for changes of direction (such as freeways). The technique is similar to traditional Target Motion Analysis (TMA) that is used in the submarine community.

Re:Usefulness vs. Controversialness

[cloudmaster]

So basically, triangulation is the only accurate method so far, though it's possible to get something to work with fewer antennae under more ideal scenarios. :)

the moral is

[iggymanz]

if you're going to whack someone, first hide your phone in a restaurant a couple miles away....then you can "prove" you weren't at the crime scene.

Re:the moral is

[ozric99]

Yeah, my boss was on my back all last week too...

Re:the moral is

[TroyFoley]

I could be 100% wrong but I think the sticking point of the "High profile cases" that the /. post mentions is that people called and verified that it was indeed the owner of the phone who had answered it at a time when a crime occured. But I dunno that for sure.

Re:the moral is

[Richard W.M. Jones]

I could be 100% wrong but I think the sticking point of the "High profile cases" that the /. post mentions is that people called and verified that it was indeed the owner of the phone who had answered it at a time when a crime occured. But I dunno that for sure.

Actually no. In the case I heard about (a notorious case involving a black school child murdered in South London in an apparently racially motivated killing) the phones were not called. I understand that mobile phone positioning information is now used fairly routinely in police cases.

Rich.

Re:the moral is

[Zeinfeld]

if you're going to whack someone, first hide your phone in a restaurant a couple miles away....then you can "prove" you weren't at the crime scene.

A while ago, before 9/11 I was sitting in a bizare meeting with a bunch of wireless execs who were breathlessly telling us how great their new location finder service was going to be. They could send you adverts targetted at people in a particular location.

I was rather unpopular when I asked if the customers would buy a product if the chief benefit was going to be to enable a new kind of spam. "Perhaps they don't get the choice"

I was even more unpopular when I pointed out that the regulators in Europe would blast this type of thing on privacy grounds. "Oh the regulators tend to be more sensible than the general public".

I pointed out that my cousin, one of those regulators has survived two assasination attempts and may have an opinion about a technology that gives away his position. In Europe privacy is not something that you muck arround with.

Today the risk of this type of scheme would be obvious even to a US legislator. Now right to life will be able to stalk doctors who provide abortions by telephone, Saddam loyalists will be able to stalk senior Republicans and Al Qaeda will be able to stalk everyone.

So they are finally working out socially acceptable ways to package up the same technology. Was it really necessary to have the dotCOM bust before some folk got a clue?

Re:the moral is

[Anonymous Coward]

This is probably story they're refering to.

Two pieces of phone evidence in the Soham case:

1. It disproves the position of someone who's part of an alibi.
2. It gives the rough location of a girl just before her phone dropped off the network.

So on its own it's not 100% conclusive, but taken with eyewitness accounts and forensic evidence, it can certainly back up evidence quite considerably.

Re:the moral is

[iggymanz]

So you have an ongoing case with a typical slow tech support desk, they put you on hold for 40 minutes to 90 minutes at a time.....they put you on hold, you hide the phone, you do your "business", you come back to your phone,and later state "yup your honor, was on the phone with Ibhanan of the M****S**** help desk the whole time".......

(Disclaimers: this is a humorous thread of posting, a joke; all homicidal maniacs reading this should consider suicide as a far superior alternative to homicide. Also, M***S****'s help desk isn't slow enough 30% of the time to put one on hold for more than 40 minutes)

Re:the moral is

[Anonymous Coward]

doctors who provide abortions by telephone

So is that like when tech support has to walk someone through a nuke & pave?
"Now, at the command prompt, type 'format fetus' and then press 'Y' when prompted."

Re:the moral is

[SlashdotLemming]

then you can "prove" you weren't at the crime scene.

No, you can just "prove" that your phone wasn't at the crime scene.

Re:the moral is

[An Economist]

You are mixing 2 cases here:

1. was the sad case of Daminola Taylor, a 10 year old schoolboy, murdered. It was expcted a gang of only slightly older kids killed him, but this suspected group 'got off' because their mobile phones were traced to a distance too far away from the murder scene to be credible. The ganag was mainly Afro-Carribean (Daminola Taylor was Nigerian, the racial aspect centered around Afro-Carribean vs. African violence, a serious friction point in London's black community).

2. The infamous racist killing in SOuth London was that of Stephen Lawrence (late teens IIRC) whose alleged attackers (racist white gang) 'got off' on technical details.

Both were killings and in both cases the attacters were not convicted.

Re:the moral is

[Richard W.M. Jones]

Yup, fair enough... I am mixing two cases, and the one I was thinking of was the Taylor case.

: Rich.

Re:the moral is

[Anonymous Coward]

or if you actually take the phone with you, dont just turn it off, but remove the battery too..

Re:the moral is

[mantera]

or just find out what their phone number is, thereby you can find them wherever they go and whack them.

Re:the moral is

[STrinity]

No, if you're going to whack someone, stick your phone in their pocket so you can follow them. This technology's great for stalkers.

Re:the moral is

[tftp]

That would be a solid piece of evidence in your favor - exactly as the presence of your knife at the crime scene would be used against you.

Re:the moral is

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why, in fact, prove is in quotes.

Re:the moral is

[stmfreak]

then you can "prove" you weren't at the crime scene.

No, you can just "prove" that your phone wasn't at the crime scene.

Fair enough, then the prosecution can merely "prove" that your phone was at the crime scene.

Re:the moral is

[Barbarian]

Aren't "technical details" usually civil rights or reasonable doubt?

Re:the moral is

[Anonymous Coward]

stalk doctors who provide abortions by telephone

Sounds safer than going to the clinic or making a house call. The doctor can stay in his bunker a few hundred miles away and do it by phone. It also means more customers over a larger territory with less travel.

Re:the moral is

[Anonymous Coward]

They may be 'points of law' regarding evidence submission. whether it can be done etc.

Reasonable doubt is only when the jury get to deliver a verdict, neither of these cases lasted until the end of the trial.

What are 'civil rights' in a court case, these were criminal trials not civil trials.

Yes in the end those who were said to attack were not found guilty, but in the latter case in particular it was recognised the police bungled it.

Track anyone...

[penguinoid]

unless they lend the phone to someone else. So much for knowing where your children are.

Re:Track anyone...

[Anonymous Coward]

You can track anyone you like, and the system isn't stalkerproof:

1. Buy a nice cheap pay as you go phone
2. Register phone with tracking service
3. Give phone to someone you want to stalk
4. ???
5. Prison!!!

The moral is: never accept phones from strangers.

Alternatively, you could register your own phone, although seeing as the police can track stolen phones (I don't know if they do - is it cost-effective?), it would be merely for novelty value, or to find out if your mate has nicked it...

Re:Track anyone...

[penguinoid]

Yes, tracking hones is extremrly cheap. It consists of (at their choice) measuring the strength/time delay of your signal from three phone towers/walkietalkies. Sending a policeman to fetch the theif is more expensive, but hey, it's their job anyway.

Re:Track anyone...

[tyrani]

Or toss the phone on a truck or in a bus after stealing a kid. You'd be looking in the wrong direction. This isn't reliable unless the phone was hidden.

Re:Track anyone...

[ttsalo]

You can call the phone and see who answers. Pretty much foolproof for guaranteeing the accuracy of everyday tracking.

Amazing how the truth comes out

[rebeka thomas]

Back around 1999 & 2000 there were rumours/news stories about the possibility of being tracked by mobile phones, and much discussion about how it wasn't really technically possible. Phone companies denied it could be done, many law enforcement agencies denied they used it (although some were forthcoming enough to say more). The general consensus was that it was something out of the XFiles.

Now it's commercial a scant 3 years later. Who'd have guessed.

Re:Amazing how the truth comes out

[Anonymous Coward]

who denied it?
what bollucks is this?

It's always been possible and I've seen discussions about it as far back as '93. You just need a high density of masts to narrow down the location (and even then it can be out by several dozen metres).

Re:Amazing how the truth comes out

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually whats impossible is locating users of mobile phone service down to a few yards or even to a city block, they can only see where you are according to the tower your connected to

Detecting where you are by "triangulation" or some such rubbish is still in science fiction for commonj people. It can technically be done but takes more time and effort for carriers than they have time to put into it

Re:Amazing how the truth comes out

[perly-king-69]

Rubbish
Location Based Services (LBS) have been touted for years now as the next big thing in the Geospatial arena.

Re:Amazing how the truth comes out

[Anonymous Coward]

How do you think they caught OJ in his White Bronco? This is hardly top secret.

Re:Amazing how the truth comes out

[thogard]

Depending on teh area, it may not be too hard. With very narrow antenna paterns and logs of which other cells picked up the signal, its easy to be within a block in most densly populated areas.

Re:Amazing how the truth comes out

[steeviant]

This is utter nonsense, because cellphones keep a running log of all of the cells in transmission range, up to the maximum trackable by the telephone, and remain connected to all of them. This is the only way that it's possible to do a smooth handover from cell to cell.

In built up areas like city blocks, the providers use what are known as 'micro-cells' that are attached to the side of buildings or on lamp posts because a simple tower is not enough to reach all of the blind spots created by buildings.

In Auckland City, which is not exactly the most cosmopolitan of cities, there are over two hundred cell sites, and my old Nokia 5110 GSM phone would be connected to no less than six of them at any time. This would be easily enough information to track not only my latitude and longitude, but also my altitude down to less than one meter.

Re:Amazing how the truth comes out

[Anonymous Coward]

Grandparent: Who'd have guessed.
Parent: what bollucks is this?

You mean, "What Bullock is this?"

Re:Amazing how the truth comes out

[Mathness]

If you have a GSM mobile phone with the engineering menu enabled (I have on my GSM phone from 1999, only required a tiny hack ^_^) and a list of all GSM base stations ID and locations, you can easily figure out where you are. The GSM provider I have gives out maps for the country I live in.

AT&T has had this for a while

[ifwm]

I remember it being touted as a feature when Mmode was introduced.

Re:AT&T has had this for a while

[gotpaint32]

With the reception that my AT&T mmode phone has, tracking me by that thing is not going to be easy. I know that in DC my phone dies in the lobby of many buildings and is pretty spotty in many areas (subways, basements, parks). And even if the system does manage to get a signal, the accuracy of the system still leaves much to be desired if you are in a dense metropolitan area.

Re:AT&T has had this for a while

[ifwm]

All I have to say is Yes Yes and Yes. Not satisfied with my service through them either, but a contract is a contract....

Double-edged sword.

[John Courtland]

Obviously, this is good if you have a cell phone and are being tried for a crime that you did not commit, it's just a simple matter of proving where you were at XX:XX:XX on XXX the XX of XXXXXXXX. However, if someone steals your phone, then plants it on a perpetrator, then sneakily gives it back, you've got some explaining to do.

Re:Double-edged sword.

[penguinoid]

Or if you lend the phone to someone else before committing the crime

Re:Double-edged sword.

[El]

How does the fact that I left my phone at home while I was out committing prove that I didn't do it? This can be used to exonerate; it can only be used as part of circumstancial evidence leading to conviction if the criminal is stupid enough to carry his bugged phone with him. And anyway, how embarrassing is it when you're in the middle of breaking into a locked apartment, and you get a call from your mom? Oooh, I hate it when that happens!

Re:Double-edged sword.

[Skapare]

You gave your cell number to your mother?

Re:Double-edged sword.

[El]

Do you think she would still let me live in her basement if I didn't?

Great for me...

[Realistic_Dragon]

This way my mother can find out I'm at a strib club, and won't ask me any inconvenient and embarrising questions when I get home because she will be too embarrised.

Re:Great for me...

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

This way my mother can find out I'm at a strib club, and won't ask me any inconvenient and embarrising questions when I get home because she will be too embarrised.

Also consider that perhaps the embarrising strib club workers won't teach you how to spell as well as your school.

Re:Great for me...

[skinfitz]

...or perhaps she knows which clubs she should avoid dancing in so YOU don't get embarrassed!

Re:Great for me...

[penguinoid]

Yes. Most people on Slashdot can't even spell pr0n

Re:Great for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey, hey, In SOVIET RUSSIA, exotic dancers strip YOU!

Re:Great for me...

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn, I need a plane ticket!

Easy service in the UK

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

A couple of new services have been rolled out in the UK recently which allow you to track people when they have their mobile phones turned on.

Such a service has existed for a long time. It's :

Mom: [dialing little James] Jimmy, where are you?
Little James: [Stepping out of the arcade] I'm at the school library

Of course, the accuracy of the information wasn't always guaranteed ...

Cell Phone tracking covered before on /.

[TheRedHorse]

Here and passive radar tracking via cell phone towers here.

Re:Cell Phone tracking covered before on /.

[caluml]

Curses. I was away when this article was posted. I have been tracking myself for a long time now. There are some really cool location based applications we are working on.

Re:fp nigs

[FlipmodePlaya]

I think this is more than dupe... Maybe a trip or quadrupe?

For loved ones

[penguinoid]

Calm down, ACs. The story said it was for tracking suspicious^H^H^H^H^H loved ones.

Doubled edged?

[mikeophile]

The danger isn't so much in you knowing where your loved ones and/or children are at all times. The danger is me knowing where they are.

No, I'm not a deviant, I'm just making a point.

Re:Doubled edged?

[carpe_noctem]

No, I'm not a deviant, I'm just making a point.

With a nick like "mikeophile", I'm not so sure.....

Re:Doubled edged?

[Anonymous Coward]

KEKEKEKEKKEKEKE oh you teabagging scoundrel

Re:Doubled edged?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe "he" is a "she", or maybe he belongs to the population of millions of Americans who prefer members of their own sex. It stopped being "deviant" a few decades ago.

Re:Doubled edged?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe he just likes Mike.
After all, philosophers (same root. Did you notice?) like wisdom, but don't want to fuck it.

Re:Doubled edged?

[Anonymous Coward]

Loving only those who go by the name "Mike" is strange and deviant behavior, regardless of sexual orientation. There are plenty of excellent fellows who go by names other than Mike. I find this "Mike" fetish to be quite disturbing, really.

Re:Doubled edged?

[KReilly]

What if the phones had some sort of trust between them. That way I could program my phone to allow tracking by my girlfriends and parents phone, and not allow it by any other.

Lets just go a step further and make all non-trusted requests to track someone prompt for approval.

Problem Solved.

Re:Doubled edged?

[steeviant]

Yeah I know, Mikeophile! what a dodgy name!

Re:Doubled edged?

[Anonymous Coward]

You don't understand the problem.
What if your girlfriend's stalker works for the telephone service?
If anyone wants to know where I am, there's already a service for that: They can call me and ask. Then i get to decide if they should know, or not, or if I want to lie or not.
Do you really want your girlfriend or mother to know where you are all the time?
I know I wouldn't...

Re:Doubled edged?

[KReilly]

I think the idea is you don't understand. Telephone companies can already use triangulation to detect where you are, so if my girlfriends stalker worked for the phone company, he already would know where she was.
To make my point, what if your girlfriend was abducted by a stalker, wouldn't it be nice to be able to know where she is, and inform the police?

But I said that this service could be useful, not fool-proof. I do not think that a universal find function would be good. But I do believe there should be a find function that authenticates to the phone. Meaning that I can set by default my girlfriend can find where I am, and no one else.

Just to drive the point into the ground, do you drive a car? Wouldn't it be horrible if your girlfriend got into a car accident and was consumed alive in flames, unable to be helped? Yea, but people still drive cars. I think the arguements being made against it are very rare cases, as are these. Yes, they are horrible, but it should not stop the world from revolving.

Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[Realistic_Dragon]

Of users location since they started in 1998. It would be fantastic to be able to get access to this and find out where you had been and when - bet it would make a pretty map.

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[tyrani]

Traffic analysis is big money. Imagine being able to track auto traffic real time based on the cel phone usage on the highways.

Other Good things: Resturant reservations and accurate wait times. The est. number of people in a club to avoid breaking fire code. The popularity of attractions and events in a city. And, a positive way for street cops to tell who is in the area, or who saw a crime.

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

It would be fantastic to be able to get access to this and find out where you had been and when

Even better, combine information from all Virgin point of sales in the UK to obtain much more details :

8:21 - Virgin Mobile phone turned on in Kensington
9:55 - Virgin Mobile customer applies for a Virgin credit card
10:34 - Virgin Mobile customer orders a Virgin Cola near the Virgin V2 music store in Kensington
11:03 - Virgin Mobile customer goes for Virgin Vodka instead. Cola sucks.
12:45 - Virgin Mobile customer boards Virgin train, westbound
15:45 - Virgin Mobile phone located in Heathrow Airport at the Virgin Atlantic booth
16:12 - Virgin Mobile customer steps inside a bookshop in Heathrow Airport and buys a Virgin Book
...

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[Anonymous Coward]

Virgin Mobile customer has sex and ceases to be a virgin mobile customer anymore.

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[mikerich]

8:21 - Virgin Mobile phone turned on in Kensington
9:55 - Virgin Mobile customer applies for a Virgin credit card
10:34 - Virgin Mobile customer orders a Virgin Cola near the Virgin V2 music store in Kensington
11:03 - Virgin Mobile customer goes for Virgin Vodka instead. Cola sucks.
12:45 - Virgin Mobile customer boards Virgin train, westbound

Which would then more likely go:

13:45 - Virgin Mobile customer still on Virgin train, stationary
14:45 - Virgin Mobile customer getting slightly fed up with Virgin train, stationary
15:45 - Virgin Mobile customer homicidal on Virgin train, eastbound (slowly)
16:45 - Virgin Mobile customer still on Virgin train, texting death threat to Richard Branson

Best wishes,
Mike.

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[twoshortplanks]

In theory Virgin customers should be able to request the infomation that refers to themselves by making a request under the Data Protection Act.

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[Fembot]

That is SO true... how is it possible for a company to sell advanced tickets on a train that infact doesn't exist??? and why despite "competition" are they the only operator between birmingham and reading that doesnt stop at every shed put up next to the line on the way???

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[elodan]

If this information is linked to anything personally identifiable, you should be able to get at it under the Data Protection Act for a small fee. (UK only)

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[4of12]

And, a positive way for street cops to tell who is in the area, or who saw a crime.

"Well, yes, I suppose I was traveling on the freeway last Friday afternoon right after the beer delivery truck crashed."

"Uhhh, well, I think I did slow down and stopped momentarily see if anyone needed help."

"No, of course not. I didn't take any of the beer."

Re:Virgin Mobile have kept records...

[tyrani]

Good example!

But who would be sober enough to speak that clearly? :)

This is going to get interesting

[tyrani]

It will be interesting to see what happends when location information obtained from cell phones and other common devices can be used to advertize.

Not just the UK.

[Daleks]

This has been out for awhile. Also, there will be (or already are) features in newer phones that provide location information to 911 call centers automatically.

This can save lives too, you know....

[menscher]

During a family vacation in New England, we were driving on some windy mountain road somewhere near the border of NH and VT. We came across an accident (motorcycler ran into a tree). Well, there were lots of tourists there, and all had cell phones. But nobody knew where we were (not even which state, since we were near the border). Spent about 15 minutes arguing with operators who wouldn't send an ambulance without a specific location, while the guy lay bleeding on the pavement.

That was about 10 years ago, but certainly shows how cell-phone signal triangulation can save lives.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[SpaceCadetTrav]

If you're so concerned about saving lives, then why don't you carry a GPS with you and read off the numbers to the 911 operator. There's no reason for them to know where you are unless you want them to.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[Scrameustache]

Spent about 15 minutes arguing with operators who wouldn't send an ambulance without a specific location, while the guy lay bleeding on the pavement.

Speaking both as someone who's waited for ambulances to show up while I was bleeding and as a former first aid volunteer, I must say that if they don't really know where the ambulance has to get to, its better not to send it.

Imagine if they had sent it to say, the other side of the mountain (or whatever) and it then had to backtrack for 45 minutes once the correct location has been acertained...

Sure, it'd be nice to have an ambulance right away, but i would rather people spent 5 minutes finding out where it has to go than having the ambulance sent to the wrong place.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[sonamchauhan]

If you're so concerned about saving lives, then why don't you carry a GPS with you and read off the numbers to the 911 operator.
That should be his choice. All he is saying (and he is correct, of course) is that cell phone triangulation can save lives.

There's no reason for them to know where you are unless you want them to.
He wants them to.

Cell phone companies already know roughly which zone your cell-phone is in (if it is turned on). And there are laws to protect privacy, etc.

If you don't want the cell company to know where you are, turn your phone off.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[Anonymous Coward]

Also I have heard thar "moutain service corps"(do not know correct english term) start testing special devices (obviously they need mobile signal acquisition systems) to track mobiles of lost peopple (i.e during snow storms)

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[Anonymous Coward]

if they don't really know where the ambulance has to get to, its better not to send it.


I'd like to point out that you can know WHERE someone is, without knowing the STREET ADDRESS they are at.

911 ops want the street address, and sometimes all you can tell them is "Three miles up the road that is the third left after the Light by the General Store on rte. 123"

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[GigsVT]

You talk about choice, but when journalists recently flied on Air Force One, the SS told them to take the batteries out of their cell phones, not just to turn them off.

Makes you wonder how much that off button really does anyway. It's not like the old days when it was a physical disconnection of power, these days the off button just sends a signal to power most of the way down. By necessity some parts of the phone must stay on to intercept the signal to power back up.

Who's to say that they don't also keep the part awake that sends out pings to towers every now and then? Wouldn't take too much power to ping a tower every 15 minutes or so.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[MyFourthAccount]

This can save lives too, you know....

That's all nice and swell, BUT

why don't they then make it so that your cell phone can tell YOU where you are?

I mean, how hard could it be (have been) to reverse this technology? So not like GPS, but if I request my location (by dialing a certain number), I will receive it through an SMS. See how much nicer that would be? Hell, I wouldn't even mind if they automated it to the point of when I dial 911, my phone will automagically send my coordinates.

But for some reason, it has been decided that THEY will track you, wether you like it or not.

Guess where the power to drive that decission came from; the 911 call-centers, or perhaps big brother, dare I suggest?

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[theflea]

Also, you could implement reverse 911 services. After a serious crime, a warning could be sent to anyone in a given area.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[westlake]

In the real world, callers to 911 are in deep shit, badly hurt, disoriented and scared, unable to think clearly. I've been there and I know the feeling.

In local news a week back, an elderly hunter took a header off a deer stand, and woke up without the faintest idea of where he was or how he had got there. In chilling wind and rain it took four hours of searching a densely wooded island park and close cooperation between the police and mobile operators to find him.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[Anonymous Coward]

The SS removes the batteries, so none of the reporters slip into the bathroom, and start talking about the President visiting Iraq. If they don't have batteries - we'll i'll be damned - they can't make calls.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[westyvw]

Nope GPS could work if every one had it. Most states use a system that is based on a linear reference system that is out of date or by road log. GPS is only being used in a handful of states that are making a map based on it.

How do I know? I am paid to make a GIS of the GPS.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[mykdavies]

Trilateration depends on the density of cells in the area. In urban areas you will be locatable to within 10's of metres as many cells can be compared, but in countryside areas your position may be known only to within 10's of kilometres.

ps the technique is called 'trilateration', because you're measuring distances, not angles.

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[jxs2151]

Oh, so we're supposed to descend further into a privacy-deprived, big-brother reality for the one time that triangulation could've helped someone?

Sorry, not a fair trade.

You know this is going to be abused...

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[Shardis]

Needless to say, things have gotten a LOT better since then - at least from what I've seen.

The company I work for has several very valid uses for this type of tech by it's staff...

Re:This can save lives too, you know....

[nip]

You know.. there is a river in between NH and VT, river to the left your in NH, on the right your in VT.

just saying.

What about people who really don't want it?

[tyrani]

Will it ever be possible to block this sort of information. Imagine if someone that the U.S. was at war with was to obtain the location of someone in the gov't?

Even better, what if I could find and track Justin Timberlake?

Scary stuff here.

Re:What about people who really don't want it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, if you can see Justin Timberlake you can follow him. If you know his cellphone number then you probably know him well enough to be able to follow him without raising suspicion. Put the tin hat away, this isn't a global lookup service on named individuals.

Re:What about people who really don't want it?

[Exiler]

Make a small, belt-clip faraday cage?

Re:What about people who really don't want it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not for civilian use anyway.

Re:What about people who really don't want it?

[rbbs]

or switch it off... (i may have missed the sarcasm of course...)

Re:What about people who really don't want it?

[penguinoid]

Mod parent Insightful. That will help against continuous tracking (though not if you make a call).

Re:What about people who really don't want it?

[t_allardyce]

fake your phones serial numbers so they don't know its you? Osama aparently uses a new phone for each call. Use blue-tooth to bounce the call off a number of phones one of which will make the call all without the owners knowing (now thats a hack).

Re:What about people who really don't want it?

[STrinity]

Richard Stallman Mode: On The answer is obvious -- cell phones should be open sourced.

if you're worried about it

[SolemnDragon]

Oke. Most of the services are opt-in. And there are good reasons, including kidnapping, theft, and accident, why you'd want your cell phone to broadcast its location.

If you don't, including for police and other emergency services, you've still got an opt-out: Take out the battery. This is not as permanent as leaving it at home, and gives you privacy. But be sure to be someplace you don't mind having listed as your last known location first.

Me, i'm pretty comfortable having my location known, and feel oke about this being part of the cellphone i'm shopping for lately. i've seen too many people go missing in Boston to really like the idea of being vanished from the map. I always swore that the child-leashes in malls were a bad idea, too, until a friend's kid got snatched. They closed the mall and found the guy- in less than five minutes he'd changed the kid's clothes and dyed his hair (which was still wet with the dye.) Now i'm not so sure i don't like the leashes, you know?

sol

Re:if you're worried about it

[Anonymous Coward]

Most of the services are opt-in.

You mean like spam?

Re:if you're worried about it

[sys$manager]

Insert joke about DMCA making it illegal to "reverse engineer" your phone and remove the battery here.

Re:if you're worried about it

[pipingguy]

...a friend's kid got snatched. They closed the mall and found the guy- in less than five minutes he'd changed the kid's clothes and dyed his hair

Really? I'm sure snopes would like names and dates for this event.

Re:if you're worried about it

[Anonymous Coward]

About that "changing his clothes and altering his hair" thing, I would think not. And Snopes agrees:

http://snopes.com/horrors/parental/kidnap.htm

Re:if you're worried about it

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh Mods, this dude is making up obvious bull shit and he just gets passed along with the bonus points? check it out

Someone do the right thing with their remaining points please...

Re:if you're worried about it

[STrinity]

I always swore that the child-leashes in malls were a bad idea, too, until a friend's kid got snatched. They closed the mall and found the guy- in less than five minutes he'd changed the kid's clothes and dyed his hair (which was still wet with the dye.) Now i'm not so sure i don't like the leashes, you know?

Now that's just being silly. If you really want to keep your kids safe, you shouldn't take them to the mall in the first place. Instead, you should lock them in their rooms until they're 18 -- and since kids are known to sneak out, at least one parent should be at home at any given time.

Except, parents are responsible for most kidnappings, so you should lock your spouse out of the house and baridcade yourself in a room with your kids.

It's the only way to be sure.

Re:if you're worried about it

[Anonymous Coward]

I call BS -- sort of.

I just did a LEXIS-NEXIS search on all major US papers in the country from 1991 to 2001, and found nothing resembling this specific story. That being said, there were several cases of kids being snatched, or attempted snatchings, in malls -- for example,

a one year old who was carried off when his parents turned away from the stroller (Buffalo, 1993);

two men in a parking lot tried (but failed) to pull a 3yo girl into their car while the mother was getting an infant of a car seat (Natick, MA, 1994);

5yo wrenched out of his mother's hand (Victoria, BC, 1995)

Woman attempts to carry 2yo away from mall merry-go-round (St. Petersburg, FL, 1995)

The famous Jamie Bulger case (2 teens in Liverpool lead 2yo away from mall, kill him, 1993)

2 teens lead away 4yo while mother distracted (Huddersfield, England, 2001)

Anyway, mall snatchings do happen -- very very rarely -- but NONE of actual stories involve changing the appearance of the child.

Re:if you're worried about it

[Anonymous Coward]

You know of several people having gone missing? Is Boston really that dangerous?

I know that some Americans visiting Finland are shocked to see that we let kids travel to school alone using public transportation, but I thought that was partly just paranoia.

Re:if you're worried about it

[Anonymous Coward]

Really? Then you should definately let snopes.com know so they can update this page. Or, quit lying to support your point.

Yeah, yeah, yeah

[heironymouscoward]

"Location based services" is the technical term. Basically the GSM provider can localize a phone depending on its last known cell contact. Phones in passive mode re-register themselves automatically only every half-hour or so, so the position is not up to date unless the person is using the phone to call or send messages. There is a kind of 'ping' SMS which just causes the phone to re-register and thus return a valid position. It only works if the phone is turned on (doh!). The whole concept is seen as a great money spinner by the GSM providers, but like MMS and other new gadgets, that is more optimistic than realistic. LBS is probably going to be most useful in chat and dating, allowing over-horny people (I suspect mainly gays) to find each other simply by tapping on their phone. The "find your loved ones" is a joke, no-one actually expects to use this to find their errant husband or kids - it's for dating, boozing, and possibly the return of stolen phones (the service I would most appreciate, having had 5+ phones stolen in the last two years).

My company develops LBS SMS products. It's a fun market.

Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah

[davidstrauss]

...allowing over-horny people (I suspect mainly gays) to find each other simply by tapping on their phone.

SMS and MMS are old school. We use the new gaydar profile for Bluetooth.

Along the other line of your comment, I don't see gay people putting burdens on child welfare and education systems like the equally-frequent, over-horny straight people. How can conservatives simultaneously whine about gay people being more promiscuous than straights and the prevalence of teenage pregnencies and welfare moms?

Personally, the most promiscuous thing I have is my network card, and my switched network really hurts its options.

Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah

[heironymouscoward]

Uhm, "gay people" aren't specifically horny, it's men that are, and gay men just don't have the restraint that the female side of the relationship normally provides. Hey, I'm quoting from a gay friend of mine who explained why he had a different partner at least once, and often more than once, every week, for years.

A straight guy would do the same (speaking for myself) if he could convince attractive women to go along for the ride, so to speak.

The Bluetooth thing is cool, but won't help you find company in a strange city, which LBS will do, with the right applications.

Lastly, no-one was whining, you're being over-defensive: only a small minority of conservatives are prejudiced against gays per se, the majority of people are equally prejudiced against all people different from them. Personally I'm only prejudiced against blinkered conservatives. Gay people probably put less burden on welfare systems, but they aren't producing a new generation of tax payers (and believe me, raising children is a burden as well as a pleasure).

Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah

[T9D]

they aren't producing a new generation of tax payers That's the first time I've ever heard anyone glorify overpopulation. Do we really need to become another India or China? Less population is better, as long as it doesn't infringe on people's civil rights, and sometimes even then. Certainly there is a lower limit on how big a useful population can be, but I am certain that we are far above that lower limit.

Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah

[The Limp Devil]

The first time I saw it mentioned in Norway a couple of years ago it was precisely lovestruck teenagers Netcom was targetting. Think of the market you have if teenagers are willing to pay to set up "chance encounters" every time they fall in love!

Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah

[Saeger]

As long the average intelligence of the population continues to increase (which is arguable), then I'm all for overpopulation, because the more thinking people are alive, the faster we evolve technologically.

And it's that same advancing tech that allows for advances in food production, health, etc, which is why society didn't collapse from overpopulation as was the hot prediction in the 70s.

So yes, 12 billion minds are better than 6.

--

Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is all the current retirement funds and major chuck of the economey (like realestate) are based on a pyramid scheme that involves an ever increasing population.

Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah

[T9D]

Minds, perhaps, but I still doubt the original poster's inference that the economy will collapse or something terrible if we don't continue to produce more drones to pay taxes to the government.

Re:Yeah, yeah, yeah

[Illserve]

The first time I saw it mentioned in Norway a couple of years ago it was precisely lovestruck teenagers Netcom was targetting. Think of the market you have if teenagers are willing to pay to set up "chance encounters" every time they fall in love!

There's a word for that. It starts with S-T-A-L-K...

Carriers have been using Triangulation for a while

[PureFiction]

This is all pretty well known to those watching the E911 drama unfold.

The easiest and simplest method for most carriers to comply with E911 is using triangulation. Indeed, bellsouth even posted a nice article about the various ways location can be obtained for cell phone users.

Obviously, with a GPS stuck in the phone itself this becomes really trivial, but even with normal phones you can use a variety of techniques, like Time Difference Of Arrival (TDOA) and Angle Of Arrival (AOA) and even Enhanced Observed Time Difference (EOTD) to triangulate the location of a wireless caller.

The carriers are already using this technology across the US, and many phones are now available with GPS integrated.

Welcome to the future.

Of course...

[Eese]

This does not track people.
It tracks their cell phones. Those things are not necessarily in the same place.

Re:Of course...

[STrinity]

This does not track people.
It tracks their cell phones. Those things are not necessarily in the same place.

Until they start implanting cell-phones into your jaw.

You won't laugh at my tinfoil hat then!

Your sig.

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree, I don't know why it's marked off topic...

Phone off but you can still be tracked

[bored_SuSE_user]

I found out this when I was working over the summer. Your mobile can still be tracked even though it's switched off. The only way to ensure it is not tracked is to physically take the battery out of it. This can be proved by listening to the interference caused by the phone when it's off and near a radio/stereo for example.

Re:Phone off but you can still be tracked

[t_allardyce]

I think it depends on the phone, some phones for example have alarm clocks that will ring even if the phone is turned off so obviously something needs to be going on inside and you might be hearing that, my phone doesnt seem to send any signals when its off and i can definately hear them through my speaker when its on and checks into the network every-so-often. However its true that there could be some sort of hook builtin to phones that allowed an outside signal to turn it on - conspiracy?

Re:Phone off but you can still be tracked

[Anonymous Coward]

What your hering is noise relfecting off the antenna on the phone. Teh cell tower sends out a pulse that your antenna picks up and then reflects back. Its just like the security tags at many shops but the power its putting out won't let anyone tack it unless they are outside your house.

Re:Phone off but you can still be tracked

[t_allardyce]

If the power its putting out won't let anyone track it unless they are outside my house how can the cell tower hear it?

I'll just bet 192.com wants to know

[ezraekman]

As if we'd want to trust them with our data. Last time I gave them mine, it "mysteriously" got into the hands of spammers. "Mysterious", because I gave them an e-mail address specific to them, in case they should attempt something like this. Easily tracked, easily disposed of. Oh well...

Re:I'll just bet 192.com wants to know

[bmsleight]

I also gave 192.com a unique email address, no spam on this yet. 6 months +

slow ones

[Anonymous Coward]

country called estonia has that system over a year. diffrent services are done etc.

ss

[fuckfuck101]

I know alot of Americans will have problems with this, 'big brother' bullshit. The fact is this is a great thing unless you have something (or are that something) 'to hide'.

Re:ss

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone stole my laptop. I'm going to come over to your house and search through all your stuff. It's ok though, unless you've go something to hide, and if you've got something to hide, then you must be a terrorist.

Re:ss

[maximilln]

The "something to hide" argument is ignorance at its pinnacle. It ignores every consideration of human nature and psychology that has ever been established.

Since the beginning of time those who hold a technological power have been using it to dominate those who lack a similar technological power regardless of the ethics involved. It's a fact of life.

Since the beginning of society those in positions of power have been using their authority to root out any dissidents. It has nothing to do with who is right and who is wrong. Bad governments with good dissidents or good governments and bad dissidents--they all do it.

With that said then I can agree with 'ss'. This is nothing more than a perfect example of "big brother bullshit".

Kevin Mitnick

[bran6don]

This is how the feds finally caught kevin mitnick. He was hacking into the phone system using a cellular modem. They triangulated his frequency and caught him in his van.

Re:Kevin Mitnick

[Anonymous Coward]

got a link to back that statement up?

Re:Kevin Mitnick

[void*]

They caught him in his apartment, not a van. However, they did track him down by his cell phone emissions.

From John Markoff's article (http://www.takedown.com/coverage/prince-hackers.h tml):

"Shimomura held a cellular-frequency direction-finding antenna and watched a signal-strength meter on a laptop computer screen. Within 30 minutes the two had narrowed the site to an apartment complex in Duraleigh Hill, four kilometres from the airport."

Although I doubt they used triangulation as given in this article, they probably just noticed they were driving in circles around the apartment complex ...

Re:Kevin Mitnick

[nonregistered]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=87483&cid=7589 498 :-)

Re:Kevin Mitnick

[glitch23]

The movie about him shows him in a motel room being overtaken by the FBI or whoever it was, not in a van.

Estonia - earlier than others!

[Anonymous Coward]

In Estonia, this thing has been in use for more than a year! We can add people to trusted people list and then they can track us using their mobile phone by going to WAP page (over GPRS). It's very useful to have a phone with color screen.

I can track my friends and I can track myself too of course on the map :p

A Trend

[hao2lian]

It seems that police technology always gets trickled down to the mainstream markets, by illegal or legitimate ways.

for those who don't know

[Anonymous Coward]

Base-station triagulation has been shown to be effective and feasible since 99/00. The only reason it's taken this long is because the phone companies didn't know how the business model would work and they wanted a monopoly. This isn't new people. move on, nothing to see here. I know this because I've worked with triangulation using base station data on CDMA networks.

complete government Know-You tools

[ciaran_o_riordan]

With a mobile phone, if your government ever suspects that you are a dissident, not only can they pull up a complete travel log for your life since you got the phone, but they can also check who you have been talking to, and the movements of those people too.

We must value our rights, such as privacy, before we accept technology. Electronic voting was the latest disaster. E-books will be the next.

Re:complete government Know-You tools

[Anonymous Coward]

With a mobile phone, if your government ever suspects that you are a dissident, not only can they pull up a complete travel log for your life since you got the phone, but they can also check who you have been talking to, and the movements of those people too.

This is why I don't and never will own a mobile phone, I've been seeing this coming for years. Hint: if you ever feel the need to join a public protest, leave your phone elsewhere.

Re:complete government Know-You tools

[vigilology]

If it ever comes to that, the phone is the ideal tool to work for you - just have a friend take your phone with them whilst you go about your more relative private business.

Re:complete government Know-You tools

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe you should stop doing so many illegal activies, eh?

Great!

[Anonymous Coward]

So now I don't need that GPS tracker to remember where I was last night.

I can just ask my girl friend.

Who do you trust?

[El]

This is great news for all those people out there being stalked by their ex's who happen to be in law enforcement! Now the bastard can always know where you are! Too bad about them tracing that cell phone to your safe house...

Well, let's go...

[Anonymous Coward]

1984... blah blah... George Orwell... mumble mumble... totalitarian... thingy... police state... uh... M$... sky is falling... bawk bawk... etc.

Re:Well, let's go...

[KingDaveRa]

You forgot to mention 'SCO'.

TruePosition

[Yonder Way]

This is nothing new. TruePosition is the market leader in the US for this.

Re:TruePosition

[oshy]

Always looking for a bargin. is there anywhere free for this?

Nobody will track me by my mobile phone

[sys$manager]

I got rid of it a year ago. I don't need people calling me when I'm not at home. I don't want to call people when I'm not at home and if I do I can use a pay phone.

People got by fine for many years before cell phones became popular, now people treat them like they're vital. I hate that digital leash. Now I just need to work on getting rid of my stupid work pager.

Re:Nobody will track me by my mobile phone

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah and these computers are more than they're cracked up to be. pen and paper for me all the way.

Re:Nobody will track me by my mobile phone

[sys$manager]

I know you're saying that to be a dick, but in a lot of cases it's true. There are a lot of instances where your ROI on certain computer based systems will be less than zero. Pen and paper has it's place, just as computers have their place. Even cell phones have their place, but I ain't that place.

The "newer is better" philosophy takes over a lot of people.

Re:Nobody will track me by my mobile phone

[pipingguy]

I don't need people calling me when I'm not at home. I don't want to call people when I'm not at home and if I do I can use a pay phone.

Amen, same here. Too bad I blew my mod points earlier today.

Seems like most chatty (in public) people with cell phones have them for insecurity reasons.

Re:Nobody will track me by my mobile phone

[westlake]

I don't want to call people when I'm not at home and if I do I can use a pay phone.

There is one working outdoor pay phone in this village of 7500 and it is an eight to ten mile drive to the next. Something to think about when winter sets in.

Mapminder's software

[SashaM]

Just to brag, I (and one other guy) wrote the client side software of the maps at MapMinder. The company who wrote the whole thing is Telmap, which was founded by me and a highschool friend of mine :-) Took me about 2 months to get the maps to look as great as they do.

Re:Mapminder's software

[omry_y]

wow, you and the other guy must be smart and cool. :-)

OT: Re:if you're worried about it

[nigelc]

I always swore that the child-leashes in malls were a bad idea, too, until a friend's kid got snatched. They closed the mall and found the guy- in less than five minutes he'd changed the kid's clothes and dyed his hair (which was still wet with the dye.)

Which mall? When? Which police department handled the case?

Just curious, because this has the ring of one of the older urban legends, so if you have a hard cite for when and where it happened, I'd be truly grateful (and might be able to win some money placing bets in the office too).

kindof figured that

[Anonymous Coward]

that why i keep my cellphone turned off unless i am making a phone call

Did

[Anonymous Coward]

ID4 teach us nothing? Somewhere, Jeff Goldblum is crying.

Obligatory Simpsons Quote

[Anonymous Coward]

Announcer: It's eleven o'clock. Do you know where your children are?
Homer: I told you last night, no!

Blue tooth in Denmark to track your kid.

[Saggi]

Track your children.

Some of these services come in Denmark as well. Today we already use some tracking systems to track children, preventing them from becoming lost. The below article describe a blue tooth system installed in Aalborg Zoo here in Denmark.

http://in.tech.yahoo.com/030620/137/25bu3.html

The system is in principle (but not technically) the same as triangulation of a cell phone to track your child between school and home. The main issue arises if tracking is allowed without the cell phone owners consent.

By the way; if I was a kid who didn't want mom and dad to know where I was, I would borrow my phone to someone else, or just turn it of. Kids are not stupid...

Sales man

[Anonymous Coward]

Osama's agent: So you say this phone is untracable
Undercover CIA agent[sales man]: yeah, don't worry abut'it
........
Osama: [0-9]+[0-9]*
phone rings,there are no Yanks in Iraq
Osama:It's me, we will get them for this
Unknown person: OSBL, shut-up, I just want them off my ass, don't call me again
........
CIA HQ: OSBL has been recongnized by our MUCHO voice recognition system[running Office XP]
CIA BOSS: I want him picked up immediately, and page the President
.........
Next days Headline
OSBL arrested
OSBL was arrested in Kentville, CA. Apparently he was working illegally in a WalMart store, with a CA state-id, with the name "Osama Bin Laden".
INS declined to comment
.............

tired of such arguments

[penguin7of9]

I'm tired of theses "this can save lives" arguments. Fascism "can save lives", too, but most people seem to agree that it just isn't worth it. Well, actually, they agree in the abstract, at least, but each individual step towards it gets justified with your kind of argument.

I think being able to track one's own location via GPS or cell phones is really swell. But when the police or employers can do it as a matter of course, then it fundamentally changes the kind of society we have.

Re:tired of such arguments

[KReilly]

So we should stop innovating anything that can be exploited?

This arguement was used for encryption too. Yes, it can be used by some bad people, but that doesn't mean that it shouldn't be used at all.

Re:tired of such arguments

[cpghost]

But when the police or employers can do it as a matter of course, then it fundamentally changes the kind of society we have.

That's true. As soon as it becomes socially acceptable to be tracked, anyone who refuses to be, automatically becomes suspicious. This is a similar argument to encryption used by PGP activists a while ago: if everyone used encryption, that would be fine. If only a few used it, then they must have something to hide...

It won't be long before people without cellphones, or those who don't always carry them along, will show up on Ashcroft's radar.

Better yet, swap phones with someone else

[Skapare]

Better yet, swap phones with someone else. Not only will they have someone else to target, but the tracking records for your phone will likely show it actually moving around elsewhere at the time of the crime.

Yea

[Anonymous Coward]

In Finnish, major mobile operators have had similar services for a long time.

Stalking senior Republicans...

[finelinebob]

Today the risk of this type of scheme would be obvious even to a US legislator. Now right to life will be able to stalk doctors who provide abortions by telephone, Saddam loyalists will be able to stalk senior Republicans and Al Qaeda will be able to stalk everyone.

...which is why reporters on Air Force One were required to remove the batteries from their cell phones on the President's Thanksgiving Day trip to Iraq.

They know how to control it for themselves -- why should they care about the privacy of individuals when there are $$$ to be made?

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[cpeterso]

or maybe Bush did not actually go to Iraq. Like the 1960s moon mission, the Air Force just flew Bush and these gullible reporters around in circles before landing at a fake base in an allied country somewhere. The reporters were only on the ground for three hours. How would they know where they actually landed without cell phones or GPS?

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[iggymanz]

actually, any geek worth his salt could tell he was in the area of arabia with his watch & the angle of the Sun.

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Uma Thurman]

The angle of the STUDIO LIGHTS you mean.

And it's impossible for Bush to have been in Iraq. The sand would not support the weight of his aircraft, and would have disappeared under the surface of the desert.

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Radical Rad]

I think he would need a compass too, would he not?

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[iggymanz]

ditto for all that heavy army gear - had to be somewhere with alot of bedrock close to the surface. That's it, we invaded NE Alberta

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[iggymanz]

not if he's there for a few hours. I'm talking +/- 800 kilometer accuracy

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Anonymous Coward]

So they were in Saudi Arabia. Like you said below, +/-800km accuracy

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Anonymous Coward]

Any geek, but a reporter? I don't mean to denegrate reporters in general, but maybe geeky reporters are not allowed on Air Force One "for security reasons." Are reporters from GCN who can recognize and report on tech allowed on Air Force One?

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, you'd have to be a fucking retard to not notice the 15 hour difference between your watch and the rising and setting of the sun. Ie, that it's dark outside at say, 11AM.

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Zeinfeld]

or maybe Bush did not actually go to Iraq. Like the 1960s moon mission, the Air Force just flew Bush and these gullible reporters around in circles before landing at a fake base in an allied country somewhere. The reporters were only on the ground for three hours. How would they know where they actually landed without cell phones or GPS?

I don't believe that happened, but I would not be surprised if a conspiracy theory of exactly that type started to spread through the Internet.

If a President lands in Iraq and nobody notices does he gain votes?

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Snaller]

why should they care about the privacy of individuals when there are $$$ to be made?

You are right, monetarism and greed thinks only about money - not about humans. Ie, we need to get rid of it.

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Shadowlore]

If a President lands in Iraq and nobody notices does he gain votes?

Only if you count the military vote ....

Re:Stalking senior Republicans...

[Zeinfeld]

If a President lands in Iraq and nobody notices does he gain votes?
Only if you count the military vote ....

In my experience there is nobody as cynical as an enlisted infantryman posted to a war zone. I very much doubt that the GOP will find as many enlisted men voting for them as did in 2000.

Now you're just being mean

[Anonymous Coward]

I've seen his mother and she doesn't dance so bad.

she was in my Kenpo class

[SolemnDragon]

It was around 1996-97, lived in Massachusetts, i think attleboro area, don't remember which mall, but there was a child molester arrested there in a separate case a couple of years later. Want to say Emerald Square, but i'm not 100% sure. If you're serious about looking, that's what i've got offer until the next time i talk to my former sensei, who will definitely remember because he had a small child at the same time all this happened, so we all were talking about it after class.

There have actually been a number of mall abductions in various places, just very few in which the child was recovered. Nobody saw him get grabbed; it wasn't on camera. One moment he was right behind her, and the next she couldn't find him. She went to the register and it was their idea to call security, who immediately locked the doors and let everyone without a kid out. I don't remember whether she ended up in court or not, but there should be a police record, because it DID get that far.

see my post to the other reply.

[SolemnDragon]

i'm not giving his name or his mother's, but i've given the date and the area of the state we lived in. I'll mention it to my sensei, he can mention it to her that snopes is out there. Beyond that, it's up to her.

sol

Re:Carriers have been using Triangulation for a wh

[Skapare]

With the narrow channel bandwidths, TDOA is not going to work very well. But if you can get the phone to simultaneously transmit on 2 widely separated frequencies (maybe 1 on each end of the allocated spectrum), you could probably get it narrowed down to 10 meters if they are wide enough apart. AOA will do much better, despite being fuzzy at long distances, for routine tracking, but not to 10 meters.

I think I need to get a tin foil hat for my cell phone.

been there and done that

[Anonymous Coward]

We've had this service with AT&T Wireless GSM/GPRS service available for customers for over a year and a half.

The Glove Doesn't Fit, See!

[yintercept]

Remember to leave your phone at home before you do your dastardly deeds. It will save the embarrassment of having to tense your hand in court so the glove won't fit.

BTW, this post is assuming that the phone company is keeping accurate records of every place your phone visits. Having the ability to track phones does not mean that telcos are tracking every phone at the moment.

Cell Phones

[cybercuzco]

What about police officer cell phones? If im trying to rob a bank, can I use this to tell when the cops are coming?

Re:Cell Phones

[rock_climbing_guy]

If French Fries= Freedom Fries and French Toast = Freedom Toast I want to leave the US and go live in Freedom

I like this comment. Next, I want French Tickler = Freedom Tickler

Re:Cell Phones

[maximilln]

Heck no. In case you haven't been following the going trend for the last fifteen years: This is all about selective enforcement and abuse of power. Authority will be used against you and no, you do not have any rights. :-)

Finalnd was considering passing a similar law...

[scorilo]

...if it's not passed already. In this story, it's reported that "Finland, the home of the mobile phone, is considering legislation that would allow parents to track the moves of their children on an internet page at home, using a system which locates their child's phone.
If the bill is passed, Finland would become one of the first European countries to allow individuals to track others without their consent and could serve as an EU benchmark."

There is even a diagram showing how the system works.

Welcum 2 the MATRIX!

Of course this implies

[henryhbk]

That Verizon could make my phone work at the sites of accidents (or near my work for that matter...). Seems all the popular accident sites are in "dead=spots" around NY City.

I have also stopped at numerous accidents (I'm a doc) in rural vermont and norther NY on trips, and had no clue where I am, talking to a state trooper who was 100mi away at the time (who also didn't know any of the landmarks I was near) and having the phone Co be able to locate me would have made it much easier...

As for carrying a GPS, why should I spend $100+ to be a good samaritan (I already carry emergency medical supplies that I paid for...).

IMHO as long as the phone co only gives this info to either itself for billing/service or to the 911 folks, except under warrant, then I'm all for it. I worry about the "kid tracking" services, as the security of whatever web technology they use to serve the info to the parents, is undoubtably crackable (everything is eventually), which means that someone else could track my kids... No thanks!

What a load

[symbolic]

It's important to know where your loved ones are for your own peace of mind

Pity the poor humans who didn't have this technology available. The more I think about it, the more I wonder how we ever survived, not knowing where a "loved one" was at any moment. I'm of the opinion that people who would use such a service are obsessive, and probably need help.

Re:What a load

[maximilln]

AGREED.

The human race as a whole has become obsessed with control. We've bred a generation of control freaks and we now have the technology to feed their neurosis.

I don't know how but I really hope that someday all of this goes down the drain. If someday all the people who thought they were on top because they could exercise control would end up with no authority to do anything.

Perhaps I'm waiting for heaven... or the Twilight Zone.

Yet another reason...

[Terminal Saint]

...that I'm proud not to own a cell phone; and have no plans of getting one. Ever.

Re:Yet another reason...

[Anonymous Coward]

in what way is the parent offtopic?

We did this 3 years ago.. world now catching up!

[somewhere in AU]

We provided just such commercial GSM services using cellID starting Sept 2000 Australia wide. This proved "good enough" to provide a wide range of useful options and services which proved very popular in a core group. In the meantime Nokia & Ericsson have created purpose built systems which you can query to get lat/long. The *accuracy* is still variable but useful and now from a "proper" system to base a whole range of new applications. We've had talks with potential UK partners for MONTHS and they are soooo sloooow that in the meantime all these competitor services get launched.. Alex.

Also important....

[batura]

'It's important to know where your loved ones are for your own peace of mind'.

Its also important to know where that girl you just met at the coffee shop is at all times....

Remember!

[Anonymous Coward]

Once you tracked them, chase them on your mare's back!

The best of both worlds

[phorm]

Include the feature, allow it to be disabled... by default.

If you want to be tracked, it's a feature. If you don't, you're not having your privacy violated.

Of course... the main issue is with whether or not you can tell if it's actually disabled. And of course police monitoring warrants apply regardless (same as they do with a home phone wiretap, I would assume?).

Re:The best of both worlds

[penguin7of9]

Trouble is: you have no control over cell tower based tracking. If it's offered as a service that you can easily enable/disable, it means that the infrastructure is in place for anybody to take advantage of it with little more than a click or a phone call.

In any case, I'm not saying that this should or shouldn't be done. I'm just saying that the argument "it saves lives" is, by itself, a bad one. Lots of policies "save lives" but that doesn't make them good ideas.

Re:The best of both worlds

[phorm]

Indeed, but realistically though the ability is there for the cell companies to monitor, it shouldn't be available to private citizens. Even parents monitoring their teens is a violation of privacy.

I'd would say however, that if it's not disabled in cellphones, then it should be unavailable to the general public anyways, and for that matter the authorities without proper warrants, etc.

I would also say, however, if somebody has an emergency and authorizes over-phone the use of cellular tracking, then it should be allowed. Perhaps as a precaution, they could have a special number that can be dialled to authorize such a trace.

Re:The best of both worlds

[ttsalo]

The positioning info is there. It's a basic feature of GSM networks, the base stations measure the round-trip time between themselves and the phone. (This doesn't have anything to do with triangulation, by the way.)

So the question is: what to do with the information? I don't see any harm in allowing the cellphone owner utilizing his/her own position in services like "where's the nearest Pizza Hut". I don't see harm in allowing the cellphone owner to offer limited access to his/her position information for others. Example of this is something like family members getting rough info "at work"/"at home"/"elsewhere".

And I don't think that many parents agree with you that knowing their kid's whereabouts is a violation of privacy.

Re:The best of both worlds

[Anonymous Coward]

The positioning info is there. It's a basic feature of GSM networks, the base stations measure the round-trip time between themselves and the phone.

No, the information is not just "there". Operators could be legally required to anonymize it as soon as it is received. That way, the carrier could get all the information they need for call quality improvement without anybody being able to position information.

And I don't think that many parents agree with you that knowing their kid's whereabouts is a violation of privacy.

You just aren't reading, are you? At issue is not whether legally consenting adults or guardians know their position, at issue is the fact that if you create a mechanism for widespread consumer use, it becomes trivial for authorities to abuse it.

Nigeria

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder if this would ever work in Nigeria? You could then track down all those extremely wealthy people over there and get your share of that fund their recently deceased relatives seem to have left them. They all seem to freely hand out their "mobile" numbers.

great

[Anonymous Coward]

Great...now the bugulars who know my cellphone number can check on where I am to make sure it's safe to rob my place. There is such a thing as too connected...and we get closer everyday.

Re:great

[Anonymous Coward]

You must have also forgotten to arm your robot at home also.

Its been around for ages already

[penfold69]

www.fleetonline.com

Bah, get with the program.

Re:Its been around for ages already

[penfold69]

err, make that www.teydo.com.

I hate it when they change URLS without telling me!

Re:Its been around for ages already

[oshy]

Always looking for a bargin. is there anywhere free for this? (although this request is probably been made at the bottom of other threads hidden away somewhere)

FM Leakage

[Easy2RememberNick]

I remember hearing years ago about a company (in Toronto I think) that radio stations hired to track who was listening to their stations. The company tracked the leakage of a car's FM radio. If the radio was on a station it leaked that station, so they could tell how many people listened and when they switched off or to another station.

I've had a cell phone for 10 years

[Anonymous Coward]

And I can state unequivocably that the statement that:

'Well, there were lots of tourists there, and all had cell phones.'

Is untrue.

Having had a cell phone in 1993, I can say that less than 5% of the population had cell phones at that time. Even among my tech geek friends, only one or two others had them. Amongst the general population the penetration was far lower.

Handheld cell phones were still rather large and a battery that would last all day was about half a pound. And this was on the newest phone at the time, the Motorola Star Tac Ultra Lite, which was the first phone with a vibrating ringer and the first with NiMH batteries. I paid $800 for mine at the time. A contract was about $50 a month with no included minutes and minutes were $0.45 a piece ($0.20 at night).

They simply didn't make financial sense for most people.

I would furthermore hazard a guess that that particular rural location didn't have cell phone coverage in 1993.

And since I'm being pedantic, it's "motorcyclist".

I misread the Headline

[Ralp]

I got excited when I thought it said "Trick People Using Their Mobile Phones"

US roll-out

[gordonb]

Here in S. Florida, Nextel is beta-testing a service which is to be (tentatively) named "Teen Tracker." This will allow parents to know location of the (teen) phone holder as well as his/her speed. It allows alerts to be sent to the parents phone if the speed exceeds certain limits or location is outside certain areas.

Just think of the possibilities! My son (17 yo) proposed incorporating one of those mini-breathalyzers into the handset. Then you could call your child and determine if he/she had been drinking (patent applied for)

Second use of the same 'the Office' quote

[runlvl0]

(Tim throws Gareth's stapler - inscribed with Gareth's name - out of a window.)

Gareth: "What if that killed someone?" Tim: "Well then... they'll think you're the murderer, it's got your name on it" Gareth: "Why would a murderer put his name on a murder weapon?" Tim: "To stop people borrowing it"

Bush's Trip to Iraq and Journalists' Cell Phones

[tomkerigan]

From cnn.com's timeline of Bush's Thanksgiving jaunt to Baghdad:

"During the flight from Texas to Andrews Air Force Base in Maryland, where they will change planes, White House deputy chief of staff Joseph Hagin asks the journalists to remove the batteries from their cell phones so their movement cannot be tracked, and asks them not to turn on their cell phones when they arrive at Andrews. He tells them they will receive new cell phones when they reach Baghdad. Other journalists join the group at Andrews AFB, where they undergo a security sweep. They are told to put all of their cell phones, pagers and other small electronic devices into manila envelopes. Their bags, cameras and other equipment will be held in the belly of the plane until the flight took off."

192.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Where have I heard of that domain before...oh yes, that 192.com domain is blacklisted at work because of the incredible amount of spam that comes from there.

o2 offers this for free

[Mister.de]

o2 offers this for free.. since dunno 2 years? its just a sms.. for 20 cent per search, but you arent able to search other mobiles than yours, of course.. there's the lil different.

Great for burglars too

[Anonymous Coward]

Burglars used to have to drive around the neighbourhood to see who's cars have left their drives, which always was a bit of a pain.

Now they can just sit at home with their feet up and let their scripts tell them when any of the targets' mobiles are no longer at their home locations.

Isn't technology wonderful!?

Much-needed fairness for criminals you know

[Anonymous Coward]

You make double edged sound like a bad thing, whereas in reality it just makes the system much more fair, as a little thought will show.

For instance, previously only the police could track criminals by their mobiles, whereas now criminals can track the police too, and even track the families of the police when extra leverage is required. Likewise politicians, what better way can there be of ensuring that they are accountable than by giving people the ability to provide that accounting directly? Now that's true democracy.

Furthermore, previously there was an inherent unfairness in the criminal community, in that only those criminals who wore police badges could get the information they needed to set up burglaries or to plant evidence in support of blackmail. Now in contrast, anyone can know when people have left their houses and so the coast is clear, without needing to be in the police force nor have appropriate contacts. Not only is this more fair, but it solves the problem of insiders being in short supply in some districts, and it ensures that the price for such informatiion is kept reasonable through no longer being essential.

Surely everyone can see how this is much more fair than before. We should be happy that the free market is working at its very best.

Government and taxes

[heironymouscoward]

Actually that was more or less my inference. My views on drones and population is that the more, the merrier. This is easily justified on several levels:

- Demonstration: the countries with the highest birth rates (and lowest death rates) also enjoy the highest standard of living. China, our favourite bogeyman, is today's fastest growing economy. Better counter examples would be Russia, with a collapsing population and parts of Africa, decimated by AIDS. Not particularly pleasant scenes.

- Optimism: either one enjoys living, or one does not. I do. I like people, I find us fun and interesting. So, the more, the merrier.

- Observation: it does appear that we are getting smarter, as a species. Our brains are not changing, but the mental models we use to operate our environment are getting more and more accurate. Example: we don't build aqueducts anymore, because we know that a simple pipe will works as well. Overall result: significant improvement in efficiency which makes it possible to improve our standards of living while also having lots of babies.

- Fatherhood: as the papa of a young child, I have to say, it's cool. She's mini-me and mini-my-wife, and reminds me of someone I never met.

- Science: evolution proves that all life is equal, fundamentally we are all just gene replication engines on autopilot. It does not matter whether human genes are the only ones out there, since a gene is a gene is a gene.

The last argument is the toughest one for the bleeding heart "we're all going to hell in a bucket" gang, of which I'm an occasional member. Either humans are _special_, in which case you have to believe in God and Creation etc. Nah. Or we're just animals, in which case we are no better, but significantly, also no worse than any other form of life.

Ask yourself, as a horny guy (the origin of this discussion), whether you would prefer to be surrounded by a beautiful diversity of wildlife, or by one smart good-looking chick who was willing to have babies with you. End of argument.

So, yes, the more drones the better.

There's more coming

[Tryfen]

I work for a major Mobile Telecoms company. As part of the e112 project we can now pass location based information to the emergency services when you dial 112 (999/911 etc). On plain old GSM/GPRS we can get accuracy to within 50 metres - best case. If you're outside an urban area your location can be any where from 1 - 50km.

We curretly use this for LBS (Location Based services) such as finding your nearest pub / taxi / cinema etc.

You do have the option to turn off the ability to be located by typing in a USSD (check with your operator) but this will be over-ridden if you dial 112. There are verys strict safeguards about who can have access to location base services.

With the roll out of UMTS (3G) accuracy can be determined to an even greater location - but the really interesting thing is the inclusion of GPS modules in phones. Because the USA has a requirment that x% of cell-phones must have the ability to pass back their location to 911 operators we're going to see a lot more GPS modules for phones. GPS combines with Cell Centroid algorithms will give an accuracy of less than 10m.

A few myths to clear up: Your phone will not be able to locate you when it is switched off. Unless you've set a timer in your phone to turn it on at a set time.
If "they" really wanted to find you - they would anyway. Yes, it's scaryish technology, but the phone company needs to know where you are to bill you properly anyway.

Right. That's enough from me :-)

Track People Using Their Mobile Phones

[kdahmani]

I have been living in Estonia since 3 years and you could track people using their gsm phones since a few years, I believe this technology was developed by an Estonian company called Regio http://www.regio.ee/index.asp?i=201458030820031004 429065&cl=02 Another very useful service being offered in Estonia is being able to pay for your parking using SMS.

Re:Track People Using Their Mobile Phones

[Anonymous Coward]

GSM phones positioning service in Estonia was started already in spring 2000 as pilot project and testbed (Estonia is a nice small country to play with such thingies) for Ericsson's fresh'n'new positioning equipment. That makes already 3.5 years! You can list phones that can find your position every time they want (wife/husbad/girlfriend) on Estonian biggest GSM service provider's self-service website. Another possibility is that GSM phone owner positionates himself, but answer is sent to someone he wants, so this person can see sender's position on map through WAP. Very useful for storing or announcing nice new interesting places. Positioning is quite accurate, 50 meters in town, 100 meters outside town.

What is this guy hiding?

[t0ny]

But when the police or employers can do it as a matter of course, then it fundamentally changes the kind of society we have.

And what reasons do you have for not wanting the police to have the ability to locate you, hmmmm?

Assassination?

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

I was even more unpopular when I pointed out that the regulators in Europe would blast this type of thing on privacy grounds. [...] I pointed out that my cousin, one of those regulators has survived two assasination attempts and may have an opinion about a technology that gives away his position. In Europe privacy is not something that you muck arround with.

Not to doubt you or anything, but that sounds pretty heavy. Who's trying so hard to assassinate a telecomms regulator? I've worked in the business, and never found that the regulators had much real power, so it would seem an odd choice on the face of it...

What happens if your wife finds out where u are ?

[ramana8]

And you are being naughty !!!

go read my journal

[SolemnDragon]

did that.