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Caching Torrent files in DNS

bodin writes "This is a proof of concept version of BitTorrent where the torrent files are transported over DNS. This will of course bog down BIND servers all over the planet. Everyone should be thankful that the files are not sent over DNS."

283 comments

  1. Great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Great I get to see this article posted just before the internet slows to an unacceptable crawl and names stop resolving.

    1. Re:Great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny



      Hell, Earthlink has been like that for years!

      Ducks

      Runs and hides

      Evil Grin

      AOL! Yeah, that's the ticket!


    2. Re:Great by mobby_6kl · · Score: 2, Funny

      >and names stop resolving.

      That's not a problem, as real geeks remeber all the IPs they need.

    3. Re:Great by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Such as 66.35.250.150.

  2. Speling? by JoeBaldwin · · Score: 4, Funny

    Bloody hell, that guy has awful spelling!

    And he's coded what is obviously the *worst idea ever!*

    Do you want to shoot him or shall I?

    1. Re:Speling? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      He's a typical Swedish Geek. I'll run over him tomorrow.

    2. Re:Speling? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I saw a donate button at the bottom of the page.

      PLEEEEEEEEESE don't anyone give this guy money!

    3. Re:Speling? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      And i like the way he says he uses Bit Torrent for downloading Linux distributions (or "linuxdistributions", as he puts it), and then links to a site that's known for torrents of a much less legal nature.

    4. Re:Speling? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Worst idea? Well... one could improve that concept: Use DNS cache-poisoning to pro-actively share the file.

      What if some DNS servers don't "support" this kind of pro-active distribution? Could someone write a worm which would use another BIND bug to "upgrade" all DNS servers to support cache poisoning...

    5. Re:Speling? by johnburton · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well.... The files are small and you have to do a DNS lookup *anyway* to reach the site they are on so maybe it's not toally stupid.... But it's probably a very bad idea to encourage this kind of thing

      --
      Sig is taking a break!
    6. Re:Speling? by Nailer · · Score: 1, Troll

      Bloody hell, he's using DNS as a distributed information serving resource, as it was designed to do! Bloody hell, the only point you have to make is criticise his spelling! Bloody hell you sound the comic book guy from the simpsons!

      Bloody hell the overly violent geek reaction is so very two years ago, it makes me want to rape you with a porcupine.

      Not really that funny now is it?

    7. Re:Speling? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like tacos. MMMMMM.... tacos.

  3. Idiot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    DNS was designed to work under UDP with a 512byte limit on packet size. I guess this would be ok if you are downloading software for a Timex Sinclair.

    1. Re:Idiot by dtdns · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you read the article and know anything about DNS, you can see that he is splitting the file into 126 byte segments and storing the parts in TXT records of individual hosts. The host naming scheme is quite clever, I might add.

      The goal is to offload the duty of serving up the files from the download servers to an existing distributed network. He even mentions that the DNS servers caching these records would consume massive amounts of memory, and then (like a spammer) blows it off as "its [memory] not that expensive today anyway."

      If this is actually implemented on a wide scale, DNS administrators will simply stop caching TXT records, putting the load right back on the original download server where it belongs. Or worse, they may stop caching records altogether, which could only lead us all down the path of chaos, death and destruction.

      I agree that it's clever, but like a deadly virus, not something that should leave the lab on a large scale.

    2. Re:Idiot by hattmoward · · Score: 5, Informative

      He's just talking about the .torrent file, which points to a torrent tracker, not the torrent data itself; and DNS works over TCP also.

    3. Re:Idiot by circusnews · · Score: 3, Insightful
      I agree that it's clever, but like a deadly virus, not something that should leave the lab on a large scale.
      See, I think every one is looking at this the wrong way (including the org. author of the concept). Change the peramiters just a bit, and you can see the benifit of such a system more clearly. Instead of using the existing DNS network (which I think is a bad idea), why not take the concept and build a BT-DNS network? Some root BT-DNS hosts could be established, and network admins could then set up their own BT-DNS servers if they choose to. BT clients could even be modified to use this new BT-DNS network. Not sure how you would deal with adding BT files to the network but I am sure it could be done easily enough (DNS is not my strong point...)
    4. Re:Idiot by Saeger · · Score: 1
      splitting the file into 126 byte segments

      Yeah, your average .torrent file is about 15K (according to my OLDTORRENTS dir), so that's a lot of segments, a lot of bandwidth, and a lot more memory required to cache thousands upon thousands of torrents.

      DNS administrators will simply stop caching TXT records

      It's more likely they'd patch their DNS servers to filter out only the suspect non-text TXT records, which means the torrents would have their SHA1 hashes dropped and would be useless.

      d8:announce36:http://tsazz.sytes.net:6969/announce 13:creation datei1069918597e4:infod6:lengthi366858240e4:name32 :enterprise.311.hdtv-lol.[BT].avi12:piece lengthi1048576e6:pieces7000:***HASH SNIPPED***

      --

      --
      Power to the Peaceful
    5. Re:Idiot by boots@work · · Score: 1

      It's more likely they'd patch their DNS servers to filter out only the suspect non-text TXT records

      Why would administrators care? The same data is going to come down over either HTTP or DNS. There's nothing inherently more expensive about passing it through bind rather than squid. The point of ISPs is, after all, to provide internet service.

      a lot more memory required to cache thousands upon thousands of torrents.

      You only need to cache them if your users are actively downloading thousands upon thousands of files. If you're really doing terrabytes (3000 x 660MB) of traffic per day, I think you can afford a big DNS server or two.

      Unless the point is to stop people using BitTorrent altogether -- I suppose you might want to do that in a business environment, but in that case you've probably blocked the ports already.

    6. Re:Idiot by Fjornir · · Score: 1

      Sir,

      I'm actually not too sure what bothers you so much about this. DNS servers are, overall, very smart beasts. They know how much memory they're allowed to consume, and drop records from their cache to stay within their limits, based on certain criteria -- primarily 1. the frequency they are requested and 2. Their TTL value (pull-date).

      If a record isn't getting requested very often, it is more likely to drop out of cache. A few hundred extra bytes in one record may make another record more likely to fall off the cache earlier -- but that record would most likely have been infrequently accessed and stale verging on expired.

      If the entries associated with a torrent aren't requested very often then they'll get bumped down and drop off too. If they are requested, then it's legit: DNS is connecting clients with servers like it is supposed to, and all's right in the world.

      Or am I missing something?

      --
      I want a new world. I think this one is broken.
  4. Uhh by Pingular · · Score: 0, Troll

    This is a proof of concept version of BitTorrent where the torrent files are transported over DNS. This will of course bog down BIND servers all over the planet. Everyone should be thankful that the files are not send over DNS.
    So why is it being posted on Slashdot if it's such a bad idea? Won't posting it on a major news site just further it's progession?

    --

    When anger rises, think of the consequences.
    Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC)
    1. Re:Uhh by JeffSh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      news doesn't exist to just publish the good ideas, unless you really /want/ censorship

    2. Re:Uhh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you simple?

    3. Re:Uhh by axxackall · · Score: 2, Informative
      There was some irony in it, b/c it is not a bad idea, DNS is properly designed for these kind of tasks, and better serving end-users (who will have more chances to find files in a chaos of Internet) is actually a good idea.

      ...Well, I begin to believe that there was some irony in your questions too, wasn't it?

      --

      Less is more !
  5. Can I use DNS... by neuro.slug · · Score: 0, Troll

    ...to send those RIAA music files and MPAA movies to people? After I sell them for profit?

    Oops. Runs and hides

    -- n

    1. Re:Can I use DNS... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0



      There is one thing I hate more than people that think they are witty when they actually aren't. And that is people that think they are witty when they acutally aren't, and are self-referential about it. You can usually identify these people when they post something and end it with ducks or Runs and hides or evil grin. Perhaps the worst is the Yeah, that's the ticket. I'm sorry, you can't make yourself funny or original just by believing you are, and you especially can't do it with over-used and tired post scripts. Please stfu.



  6. BT Itself? by AntiPasto · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I know its sort of a chicken / egg thing... but can someone explain exactly why BT itself can't be used to distribute torrents, or to share the bandwidth of tracking?

    1. Re:BT Itself? by kid-noodle · · Score: 1

      Wouldn't that just make it into something more like ed2k?

      Not up on my p2p protocols really.

      Mind you, isn't it a chicken-and-egg problem rather like Public Key Crytography?

      One imagines you'd need a tracker for the trackers...

      --
      fortune -o
    2. Re:BT Itself? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      .torrent distribution via bittorrent would be a good way to go about it. I posted several messages on the bittorrent ml regarding ways to do this. Bram Cohen hasn't replied and I haven't been able to drum up a whole lot of enthusiasm about it. I urge you to read the posts.
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/bittorrent

      the following messages:

      3770
      3776
      3785
      3788
      3789
      3851
      3871
      3929
      3777
      3790
      3924
      3949

    3. Re:BT Itself? by damiam · · Score: 3, Interesting
      I know its sort of a chicken / egg thing... but can someone explain exactly why BT itself can't be used to distribute torrents

      BT works by connecting to a tracker, which tells it about other hosts downloading the same file. Without a .torrent file, BT doesn't know what file to get or how to contact the tracker. You could distribute .torrent files over BT, but you'd need another .torrent to tell BT where to go to get the first .torrent. It'd only really be practical if you put together a massive collection of .torrents (like the suprnova database) in a .zip file and then used BT to download that.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    4. Re:BT Itself? by ryanr · · Score: 1

      Mostly because you need a .torrent to use BT, so it's a bit silly to use BT to distribute .torrents. If you really, really wanted, you could make one smaller .torrent to get a somehwat larger .torrent, and then use that one to get the real file. That's probably as deep as you could go, since the chunk size is 256K, and as soon as you have a .torrent that only points to one chunk, it doesn't get any smaller than that.

      Still, .torrent file are relatively small to begin with, so it's generally not worth worrying about. BT also need a little time to ramp up, so it probably won't get you the .torrent file any faster to begin with.

    5. Re:BT Itself? by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 1

      I think the best approach to distribute the torrents would be a p2p front end, I believe edonkey and Limewire are full standalone true p2p programs. That way the trackers themselves *will* be distributed, and downloaded from your peers just like all your other music/movies - once you have them, BT itself takes over and manages the actual data. THe only changes to the original p2p program would be the TTL parameter - Tracking servers go up and down more often than a cheap hooker, and you dont want to keep downloading out of date trackers. The guy is right in looking for another approach to them, but hijacking DNS isnt the right way. Maybe in the longer run, this initialisation problem with BT will be cured and brought together in the ideal single app.

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    6. Re:BT Itself? by 0x0d0a · · Score: 1

      It'd only really be practical if you put together a massive collection of .torrents (like the suprnova database) in a .zip file and then used BT to download that.

      Good explanation, but it still wouldn't work. (This is an interesting problem that you'll run into in a lot of areas of computer science, though I don't know whether it has a name.) Basically, each .torrent points to a file. The contents of that file may not be changed without invalidating the .torrent link. Thus, the contents of the file must be known at the time of propagating the .torrent. Thus, the file may only reference older .torrents -- that is, .torrents that were already in existence at the time the file was created. So if the only reference someone has to obtain BitTorrent information is a .torrent file, they may only ever reach .torrents created at or before the creation time of that .torrent.

      Your solution would reduce load over the existing system, but from the fact that the parent mentioned chicken/egg, I suspect that they want to use BitTorrent as a complete solution.

      There are systems that allow providing forward references -- allowing one to reach newer files. These systems require the use of encryption, not just hashing, however. kast and freenet both use public key cryptography to provide exactly this service.

  7. KARMA WHORE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pingular is a karma whore and a troll

    1. Re:KARMA WHORE by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pingular is a karma whore and a troll Anonymous coward is a karma whore and a troll.

  8. "It would be bad..." by Chalybeous · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Seriously. I don't pretend to understand 100% of the technology involved, but it seems pretty clear even to me that:

    • DNS servers, as the name implies, are for serving DNS information.
    • For information to be propagated at a good speed, we don't want DNS servers to be bogged down.
    • If we start using DNS servers to send information larger than the usual DNS information, we bog them down.
    That isn't to say that I think BitTorrent cacheing isn't possible. I just don't think it's a good idea to use existing DNS servers for it, although perhaps something could be built on similar technology, or dedicated Torrent users could run their own DNS servers if they're that determined to do something so bandwidth-intensive...
    --

    "It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." -- Zork

    1. Re:"It would be bad..." by BW_Nuprin · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It seems to me that sites like suprnova.org and other tracker sites already attempt to serve that purpose, in essence they are manually run Torrent DNS servers that are human readable. Their hardware just can't keep up with the demand, so this guy decided to force every DNS on earth to do it for them. A better solution would be for the tracker sites to switch from a web-based solution to a DNS-type (not actually DNS) tracking server, but then they wouldn't have advertising or any hope of fame or revenue. Right now we know who suprnova.org is, and we know they're leet, and they like that. Actually, come to think of it, they prolly don't like this DNS idea either.

    2. Re:"It would be bad..." by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Heh... at least it would help convince people to run non-recursive webservers on their public-facing side of the network. The recursive ones will work just fine only listening to queries from within the network.

    3. Re:"It would be bad..." by attobyte · · Score: 4, Informative

      If you read it you have to add a zone so it is not forcing anyone to do anything.

      --
      I didn't use the preview button, so get over it!!!!

      Mike

    4. Re:"It would be bad..." by Trbmxfz · · Score: 3, Insightful
      DNS servers, as the name implies, are for serving DNS information.

      Yeah, and HTTP servers are for serving HyperText only :)

    5. Re:"It would be bad..." by itsari · · Score: 0

      Who needs DNS anyway? Us geeks can navagate the internet using only IP addresses.

    6. Re:"It would be bad..." by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >DNS servers, as the name implies, are for
      >serving DNS information.

      A TXT record with a name, associated with a given origin, *IS* a DNS record. Whether it fits your own narrowly defined idea of what constitutes a DNS record is not relevant. If your ISP does not propagate or cache TXT records, that's another matter entirely. But to say these are not DNS records is an example of the same sort of reasoning that leads people to believe "the Web" is "the Internet."

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  9. oh well by odyrithm · · Score: 0, Redundant

    there goes the root servers.. :(

    --
    moo
    1. Re:oh well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Redundant

      ...again! ;)

    2. Re:oh well by Fembot · · Score: 1

      looks to me like the rootservers themselves would have nothing to do with it. Where it hurts is the ISP's nameservers which have to cache the stuff. When I to a TXT lookup on some domain all the root servers do is point me to the right server to awnswer that request (or one that might know the one that knows the awnswer) Suprnova.org gets 1million+ hits per day iirc, so a few extra million hits per day to the rootserver is negligable. Infact if all of the queries were to somthing like 0_197_56633ab0d90f43c68ed1b47358eccfe7.suprnova.or g then the isp's servers would cache the nameserver for suprnova.org, so it would result in virtualy no increased load on the root servers.

      Alan

    3. Re:oh well by Tony+Hoyle · · Score: 1

      Suprnova.org gets 1million+ hits per day iirc

      That'd be clever, since it was shut down months ago...

      There's just a generic 'No access' page there now.

    4. Re:oh well by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Suprnova.org is alive and well.

      The 'No access' page you're seeing is almost certainly due to a block on your end. Someone's censoring your access because you're at work or school.

  10. Don't mess with DNS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I don't think it is a bad idea but I think we must start making "prime directives" ala RoboCop. ....
    Prime Directives
    1. Get DSL/Cable Modem
    2. Install Linux/BSD/OpenSource OS.
    3. Do not mess with DNS

    1. Re:Don't mess with DNS by wo1verin3 · · Score: 1

      >>Prime Directives
      >>1. Get DSL/Cable Modem
      >>2. Install Linux/BSD/OpenSource OS.
      >>3. Do not mess with DNS

      And what happens when RoboDNSSloth over there gets fired, the end of DNS as we know it.

    2. Re:Don't mess with DNS by martingunnarsson · · Score: 0

      4. ???
      5. Profit!

      No?

      --
      Martin
    3. Re:Don't mess with DNS by Doomrat · · Score: 0

      6. CANCER

    4. Re:Don't mess with DNS by SirDaShadow · · Score: 2

      And the 4th directory will be....PROFIT!

    5. Re:Don't mess with DNS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No Profit will be put in as 0 and it will be treated like an array

    6. Re:Don't mess with DNS by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "I don't think it is a bad idea but I think we must start making "prime directives" ala RoboCop. ...."

      Microsoft's way ahead of ya. Although, they still won't tell anybody what directive 4 is.

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    7. Re:Don't mess with DNS by gmhowell · · Score: 1

      Directive four is obviously: all employees of Microsoft can get off scot-free. (would be way cooler if I could remember the phrase and substitute Microsoft for OCP)

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
  11. riaa by alitaa · · Score: 1, Funny

    would be fun if one could download torrents from riaa, mpaa and whatever those ....... are called

    1. Re:riaa by frozenray · · Score: 1
      would be fun if one could download torrents from riaa, mpaa and whatever those ....... are called
      One of the all time coolest hacks was the downloading of the DeCSS source code right from the DVDCCA's name servers (documented on the "42 ways to get DeCSS" website here as item #9). However, the DeCSS source is quite small and wouldn't bog down the nameserver infrastructure too much.
      --
      "There are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare." - Blair Houghton
  12. This was bound to happen by color+of+static · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Some of us have been using DNS to get through some really draconian firewalls for ages. It was just a matter of time before we saw someone distribute files this way. What is unique is that they will be cached. This in and of itself is an amazing idea. DNS is well designed to cache for well defined amounts of time.

    The load on large DNS servers can grow quickly. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a set of patches coming out for DNS servers to combat this. the question is can we find a TTL that reduces the abuse and still makes it useful.

    1. Re:This was bound to happen by andr0meda · · Score: 1



      Now that the ghost is out of the bottle, I think we can prepare ourselves for dramatic internet attacks in the coming weeks / months, and much shorter TTL values, and longer loading times.

      What can be done effectively to detect and remove file entries?

      --
      With great power comes great electricity bills.
    2. Re:This was bound to happen by Homology · · Score: 1
      Some of us have been using DNS to get through some really draconian firewalls for ages. It was just a matter of time before we saw someone distribute files this way

      It's just another irresponsibility specifically designed to slink through a firewall, and subvert security. It's just like Microsoft SOAP that's nothing more than RPC via port 80, and also designed to evade firewalls. And yeah, Microsoft talk alot about security using SOAP while never actually adressing the issues.

      What is unique is that they will be cached. This in and of itself is an amazing idea. DNS is well designed to cache for well defined amounts of time.

      And unless your DNS server got some godly amounts of memory, your in-memory DNS cache is pretty useless. Bye, bye caching-only name server.

    3. Re:This was bound to happen by Malcontent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      " DNS is well designed to cache for well defined amounts of time."

      It's amazing to me how well designed the DNS infrastructure is. Just the right balance of decentralization and authority. Unlike P2P systems it relies on root servers to provide an authoritive content but it also provides a completely decentrized administration infrastructure.

      I am shocked that DNS or the ideas behind it have not been used for all kinds of things.

      --

      War is necrophilia.

    4. Re:This was bound to happen by color+of+static · · Score: 1

      Probably what we should have done years ago. Start making DNS the PKI system that it always seemed aimed to become. Keeping PKI seperated from DNS, in seperate infrastructures like LDAP has never really made a lot of sense. Sure it works, but the value add of combining them should be worth enough to link them.

    5. Re:This was bound to happen by color+of+static · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A good DNS cache should still be useful, just not as much as it used to be. The reason, you will reference sites that you use (your mail server, popular websites) thousands of times, while you will access each block in the download once or twice. The hit count should wash out the noise to some degree. Now sites that you only hit once every few hours are likly to require smarter cache design to not become irrelevant to the cache.

    6. Re:This was bound to happen by MeanJeans · · Score: 1


      Some of us have been using DNS to get through some really draconian firewalls for ages

      How so?

      Do you have a proxy server offsite that listens on port 53? If so, you are not using DNS, you are using a proxy server that listens on port 53.

      --
      =====
      imagetweak.netWeb-based image t
    7. Re:This was bound to happen by shaitand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe you understand this already and maybe not. The load on the dns servers wouldn't really be that large, only the .torrent file is distributed via dns, not the data itself.

    8. Re:This was bound to happen by color+of+static · · Score: 1, Informative

      I understand he isn't running CD images through this (although someone can), but this could be abbusive to some DNS servers. I run two caching servers for about 45 users and we get around 50K requests in an hour. We need most of the 100 MB allocated to our dnscache to keep the hit ratio where it should be. I can't imagine what some TIER I DNS server might look like if this becomes prevalent.

    9. Re:This was bound to happen by King_TJ · · Score: 1

      Yes, but it sounds to me like this would be purely optional to support, based on how you configured your DNS server. In any case though, a .torrent file is only about 1.5K to 4K in size, as far as I've ever seen. We're talking about little more than a file containing URL type information inside of it.

    10. Re:This was bound to happen by boots@work · · Score: 2, Informative

      I can't imagine what some TIER I DNS server might look like if this becomes prevalent.

      If by "TIER I DNS server" you mean root name server, then the answer is that it would have little effect. The records are stored under names like 0_197_56633ab0d90f43c68ed1b47358eccfe7.domain.com. All the root and .com nameservers have to do is provide the cachable referral to domain.com, which they're doing already. It makes no difference to them how many queries the domain.com nameserver receives.

      And as for your caching forwarder: this is going to generate roughly one request for every BT block somebody downloads, typically 256kB. A couple of extra UDP packets are negligible compared to the traffic to actually download the block.

      Indeed since most web resources are smaller than 256kB, and many client machines have only a small DNS cache in the browser, it's likely that random web browsing is likely to generate requests at a higher rate. (Admittedly they're more likely to be cache hits.)

      Doing this may give you more DNS misses but if you're downloading gigabytes of data the cost of the misses will be negligible.

      Assume a DNS RR takes (generously) 1kB of disk or traffic. The queries to do this are still less than 0.5% of the traffic generated by the downloads themselves. If you allocated another 1GB of disk (about $1 at today's rates) then you could cache the tracker information for 256GB of BitTorrent downloads, which ought to keep your users supplied with Japanese tentacle porn for at least a few days.

    11. Re:This was bound to happen by boots@work · · Score: 1

      It's just another irresponsibility specifically designed to slink through a firewall, and subvert security. It's just like Microsoft SOAP that's nothing more than RPC via port 80, and also designed to evade firewalls.

      That's a fairly silly statement, given that the existing method for downloading tracker files is HTTP. I think HTTP is right up there with DNS in terms of ease of getting through firewalls. And, you know, if I was really desparate, I could just get someone to email me the tracker file, or I could bring it in on my USB key. Trying to prevent transfers of a few-kB file is fairly impossible without military-style disconnected networks.

      If an administrator wants to block BitTorrent, they can easily block the high numbered ports (6880?) that it uses for the actual transfer.

      And unless your DNS server got some godly amounts of memory, your in-memory DNS cache is pretty useless. Bye, bye caching-only name server.

      If your DNS server can't handle an extra couple of queries per megabyte of traffic it's severely underprovisioned.

      The people who think their DNS forwarder will be swamped must have a 100Mbps connection saturated with BitTorrent downloads, and a 486 as DNS server. Is that really likely?

      Anyhow, even if the DNS server drops some records, is that really the end of the world? No. All it means is that you'll need to do more lookups upstream, and your users will find it slightly slower. But any user complaints are far more likely to be about their link being saturated with BT tentacle porn downloads.

    12. Re:This was bound to happen by sudohnim · · Score: 0

      And as for your caching forwarder: this is going to generate roughly one request for every BT block somebody downloads, typically 256kB. A couple of extra UDP packets are negligible compared to the traffic to actually download the block.

      256kB is *HUGE* in DNS. The max size of a UDP packet is 512 _bytes_. The entire RR needs to fit in this packet or TCP will have to be used to transfer it, thus causing retransmits when the reply switches from UDP to TCP.

      --
      Its pretty sad when a commercial OS ships a debugger with their system but no compiler.
    13. Re:This was bound to happen by boots@work · · Score: 1

      Are you stupid, trolling, or just not paying attention?

      The 256kB block is transferred over TCP by the usual means. The DNS query/response is just a short packet of perhaps 200 bytes telling it (in essence) where to get the block from. It's just like the way SMTP uses DNS: we use MX and A records to find out what host to talk to, and then actually send the message over TCP.

      It's a little indirect and inefficient in this proof-of-concept implementation, but the DNS traffic is still much less than 0.5% of the whole. You could shrink it even more by putting it directly into the bt client, so that it fetched records as and when it needed them.

  13. Isn't this very easy to combat? by Have+Blue · · Score: 0

    Just ensure that the DNS checks to see that the new file is actually a legal DNS zone file. I assume these things have a required format?

    1. Re:Isn't this very easy to combat? by semaj · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Just ensure that the DNS checks to see that the new file is actually a legal DNS zone file. I assume these things have a required format?

      Why would anyone want to "combat" it?

      Also, if you'd bothered to read the article (all one page of it) you'd have seen:
      torrentToiZoneentries.py converts a torrent (or any file) to zonefile format (example : 0_1198_56633ab0d90f43c68ed1b47358eccfe7 IN TXT "64383a616e6e6f756e63653433...")
      Sounds pretty much like putting it into the required format, doesn't it?
      --
      Meep meep
    2. Re:Isn't this very easy to combat? by Have+Blue · · Score: 1

      True, but 0_197_56633ab0d90f43c68ed1b47358eccfe7.domain.com is (as far as I know) not a real domain.

      And admins would want to combat it to prevent "DNSservers will use a loooot of memory" and "bog down BIND servers all over the planet" as the article says.

    3. Re:Isn't this very easy to combat? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Why would anyone want to "combat" it?
      Because:

      a) Running a DNS server takes RAM and drive space. Preferably a whole lot of the former.

      b) Name servers are designed to cache. When you get beyond NS/SOA/A/MX, it starts getting heavy.

      c) End-users always find a way to push a nameserver to its limits by doing weird things. (Example: I don't know what an AXFR of MIT.EDU's zone would look like, but I have had a user gethostbyaddr() on the entire 18/8, so I can tell you it would probably be huge.)

      d) Running a DNS server _successfully_ requires a delicate balance between RAM and drivespace, and high hopes that d) does not happen very often.

      Now suppose some goober puts up torrentdns.com, and his zone contains tens of thousands of TXT records, each pointing to (or decoding into) .torrent files.

      Why is it a bad idea? Same as if Google or Yahoo decided to set their TTL to 1 minute. It might be cute but it's just not wise.

      --
      Rate Naked People at FuckMeter! (not work safe)
    4. Re:Isn't this very easy to combat? by Snaller · · Score: 1

      Why would anyone want to "combat" it?


      Why would anyone not?

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    5. Re:Isn't this very easy to combat? by __past__ · · Score: 1

      Of course DNS data has a required format (the actual files used to configure it depend on the implementation, but not the data sent over the wire). And this format is extensible to transport arbitrary kinds of data, totally unthought of when the protocol was fixed. DNS already gets used for all kinds of funky things that haven't much to do with domain names.

    6. Re:Isn't this very easy to combat? by Some+Dumbass... · · Score: 1

      Just ensure that the DNS checks to see that the new file is actually a legal DNS zone file. I assume these things have a required format?

      Why would anyone want to "combat" it?

      Remember, the RIAA/MPAA have lumped BitTorrent in with KaZaa and other P2P music services in its "war on piracy". Various people have counter-argued (correctly) that unlike those other services, BitTorrent is really just a protocol (like FTP, only peer-to-peer). The lack of any kind of built-in search functionality in BitTorrent is the clearest example of this, the example most obvious to non-technical types.

      Now, what would happen if someone created a type of BitTorrent search? Perhaps nothing, especially as long as people are just making Linux ISOs and the like available. But what would happen if people started making ripped mp3s or movies available in large numbers? The RIAA/MPAA would presumably try to shut them down, right? Go after their servers, or their search software, or whatever. Okay, here's the 64K question... what happens if that search functionality uses the DNS protocol and DNS servers and the entire Internet relies on those protocols/servers? Things could get interesting!

    7. Re:Isn't this very easy to combat? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Of course, you're right, even if you didn't realize why -- underscores are illegal in domain names.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
  14. cool hack.. by Suppafly · · Score: 1

    It's cool hack not withstanding how useless it is. I suppose if you were on a closed network that needed to propagate a lot of torrent files for some reason it would make since, but still it's a cool hack.

    1. Re:cool hack.. by JDWTopGuy · · Score: 1

      Like a college network with a bunch of geeks swapping, um, educational materials?

      --
      Ron Paul 2012
  15. Ouch! by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 2, Insightful

    BitTorrent already requires fixed servers for operation (the "trackers"), and serving torrent files from the same trackers isn't a terrible burden. Why on earth would someone want to abuse DNS for this purpose?

    1. Re:Ouch! by Snaller · · Score: 1

      Why on earth would someone want to abuse DNS for this purpose?


      Duh! Because it makes it easier to spread information and harder for RIAA to stop them.

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    2. Re:Ouch! by 1000StonedMonkeys · · Score: 1

      It really doesn't make it any harder for the RIAA to shut down a .torrent file. Even if the torrent is cached in a DNS server, it still just points to a tracker running somewhere on the internet. All the RIAA has to do is shut down the site running the tracker, which is the same thing it would have to do to make the .torrent disappear if it was being served from the same box that ran that tracker.

    3. Re:Ouch! by eraser.cpp · · Score: 3, Informative

      Because sites hosting torrent files for illegal material (which nearly all of it is) will in many cases find themselves shutdown. Through the use of DNS caching it's impossible for any host to shutdown people's access to the tracker immediately.

    4. Re:Ouch! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And how come they aren't closing down any trackers now then? Only the ones hosting .torrent files are regurlarly being shut down (and/or overloaded).

      Besides there's always the possibility of using multiple backup trackers.

    5. Re:Ouch! by Snaller · · Score: 1

      They are.

      --
      If Google really cared they would fix Android Chrome to reflow text, instead of discriminating
    6. Re:Ouch! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BitTorrent is a cut down version of eDonkey/eMule which is designed for LEGAL files.

      Anyone trying to extend BT to make it suitable for illegal use just doesn't get it. You want a network that's RIAA/MPAA resiliant? Just run eDonkey.

      (of course edonkey is a lot slower than BT -- that's what you get for a protocol that doesn't Phone Home to a central server that may well be run by the enemy.)

    7. Re:Ouch! by ctr2sprt · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I don't know if it's a terrible burden or not, but for very popular torrents (>4000 downloaders, >100 seeds) the trackers will often start choking as they run out of steam. With DNS, though, you have automatic load balancing, so no one server gets hammered as badly.

      The basic issue here is twofold. First, how can we get load-sharing for all aspects of BT? And second, how can we do that while keeping BT a "lightweight" program (i.e. one that doesn't require special server programs)? DNS may not be the best answer, but it is an answer.

    8. Re:Ouch! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah! You goddam tEXACONE muddaphuka!

  16. haha yeah its a laugh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful


    Yesterday night when i could not sleep i thought of what fun i could do with one of the most
    distributed database in the world. The DNS!


    yeah its fun fucking up the DNS for everyone, haha i laugh everytime a virus wipes out half the net or your hardrive, its fun ruining other peoples stuff, its cheap like you say right ?

    1. Re:haha yeah its a laugh by NanoGator · · Score: 1

      "yeah its fun fucking up the DNS for everyone, haha i laugh everytime a virus wipes out half the net or your hardrive, its fun ruining other peoples stuff, its cheap like you say right ?"

      Lighten up, man.

      "I've come up with a worst case scenario, mod me up!"

      --
      "Derp de derp."
    2. Re:haha yeah its a laugh by Mod+Me+God · · Score: 1

      Dude, grow up.

      --
      --

      FreeNET user? Comfortable with the adverse selection?
  17. What can we do next? by Limburgher · · Score: 5, Funny
    Also coming soon:

    Freenet over DHCP;

    Gnutella over BOOTP;

    And last, but not least, KaZaa over WINS!!! :)

    --

    You are not the customer.

    1. Re:What can we do next? by badfrog · · Score: 3, Funny

      Make NetBEUI routable, and we're all set!

    2. Re:What can we do next? by Lobo93 · · Score: 3, Funny

      And last, but not least, KaZaa over WINS!!! :)

      You owe me a keyboard and a couple of meals you lousy bastard - I just barfed at the very thought of your despicable suggestion!

      Shame on you! ;)

      --
      "The only clear view is from atop the mountain of our dead selves." - Peter Carroll
    3. Re:What can we do next? by Limburgher · · Score: 1

      Sorry. I just wanted to think of the two kludgiest, least efficient and least secure protols I could, and combine them. I said what I said because I didn't think MSN Messenger via Windows ICS was practical.

      --

      You are not the customer.

    4. Re:What can we do next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Freenet over DHCP;

      Gnutella over BOOTP;

      And last, but not least, KaZaa over WINS!


      I know it's a joke and all, but just thought I'd point out that DNS would be a slightly better protocol to bastardise. DHCP, BOOTP, and WINS can't really be routed can they? Seems they all rely on MAC. Dunno, maybe wins doesn't, but isn't it like computer name to hwdr addr, like arp-ish?

    5. Re:What can we do next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >Freenet over DHCP

      Unlike the torrent idea, this might actually speed things up...

      (I'm kidding, Ian!)

    6. Re:What can we do next? by Limburgher · · Score: 1

      Certainly not WINS. That was part of the joke. ;)See above comment on NetBuei, that one's gets the joke.

      --

      You are not the customer.

    7. Re:What can we do next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you seen the broadcast traffic with Gnutella? It's pretty much Internet-wide NetBEUI.

    8. Re:What can we do next? by JDWTopGuy · · Score: 1

      Better idea:
      1. Create broadcast address for entire internet. (0.0.0.0 maybe?)
      2. Entire files sent via above address, UDP, with said address as source.
      3. Impossible to trace, because the internet has crashed.
      4. Return to sneakernet!

      Crap, I better patent this!

      --
      Ron Paul 2012
    9. Re:What can we do next? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You laugh, but I can transfer files using ICMP.

  18. Correction by mr100percent · · Score: 1

    It's actually a proof of concept of DNS where its been reprogrammed to send BitTorrent files, not the other way around.

  19. Sure! And while we're at it... by barfarf · · Score: 1

    Let's use the rpc protocol for ftp transfers! This sounds like it could be fun!

  20. RTFA before flaming the concept! by heironymouscoward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    DNS is being used to exchange the Torrent files, which are small, not the data itself, which is large.

    The Torrent files are indexes that tell your BitTorrent program where and how to get its data.

    This sounds very useful, since what was missing from the BitTorrent network was a way of distributing cached Torrent files, and this is exactly what DNS provides.

    Remains to be seen whether it actually works, but it's a neat concept.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature
    1. Re:RTFA before flaming the concept! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why can't the trackers be implemented in a distributed way as well?

    2. Re:RTFA before flaming the concept! by Helpadingoatemybaby · · Score: 1
      I agree with the parent -- It's a fantastic idea. For everybody who likes the idea of bittorrent but has run into the dreaded problem of the tracker server refusing connections or just getting bogged down this is a life saver.

      The key to understanding is that the DNS information that is supplied by the tracker (the torrent server) will be cached all around the world thus eliminating the endless amount of tracker server overload that we all see.

      For the previous hundred flamers: the actual file is not being handled by DNS, only the tracking information which is tiny. So please, relax.

      Now, can someone please figure out a way to create a real-time streaming bittorrent? I would like to see tv stations via streaming realtime bittorrent. Can someone start a bounty on this?

      --

      The baby's fine -- please stop sending business cards.

    3. Re:RTFA before flaming the concept! by BlacKat · · Score: 1

      "I agree with the parent -- It's a fantastic idea. For everybody who likes the idea of bittorrent but has run into the dreaded problem of the tracker server refusing connections or just getting bogged down this is a life saver."

      This will not solve the problem of a tracker going off line, getting DDoS'd, or simply being too busy.

      As far as I understand, this is just to distribute the .torrent file itself, nothing to do with data distribution. That still requires trackers and the like, and is still a point of failure for the Torrent Network.

  21. I've got a great Idea by jonfromspace · · Score: 4, Funny

    Why don't we funnel all trucking traffic into and out of all major port cities through residential streets!

    That way, a system we already have in place that seems to work ok can be scrapped, and we can bog down commuters only BLOCKS from their homes!!!!

    THEN, I can get my article on Slashdot.

    --
    I am become Troll, destroyer of threads
    1. Re:I've got a great Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, they already do this in pittsburgh. Not that effective.

    2. Re:I've got a great Idea by hoggoth · · Score: 1

      > Why don't we funnel all trucking traffic into and out of all major port cities through residential streets!

      Ah, I see you live in New York too.

      --
      - For the complete works of Shakespeare: cat /dev/random (may take some time)
  22. Not THAT small. by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Using DNS to cache a dozen or two kilobytes (or less, or more) where it's only meant to handle a few BYTES is likely to cause all sorts of problems.

    1. Re:Not THAT small. by dissy · · Score: 1

      > Using DNS to cache a dozen or two kilobytes (or less, or more) where it's only
      > meant to handle a few BYTES is likely to cause all sorts of problems

      The DNS spec states that the TXT record string can be up to 255 bytes.

      255 > few, and the spec in RFC is what it was meant to handle.

    2. Re:Not THAT small. by Zocalo · · Score: 5, Informative
      Actually, DNS is designed to handle considerably more than just the few bytes of data that would typically be required for an A or PTR record. One reason for DNS supporting TCP was to enable queries of more than 64kB, which are quite often seen on zone transfers, and should be able to cope with the majority of .torrent files.

      Plus, I don't see how this is going to put the huge strain on the DNS infrastructure that is implied, apart from the server hosting the torrent's TXT record anyway. Assuming no cached DNS information, I need to perform exactly the same number of DNS queries to resolve foo.domain.com to get a TXT record as I do get pull a tracker file from it. Judging by some of the posts here already some seem to think that the root DNS servers are going to have to handle terabytes of movies files or something, and that just isn't that case.

      --
      UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
    3. Re:Not THAT small. by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 2, Informative

      255 12,000, 25,000, or I've seen torrents that were several hundred K.

    4. Re:Not THAT small. by CowboyMeal · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not only that, but DNS was designed to handle a lot of tiny requests, and a few huge requests. For the many many tiny requests, it uses UDP, and doesnt have to go through the overhead of a full-blown TCP connection. This is what makes it so scalable. If it has to send back more than 512 bytes (for a zone transfer or torrent file), it sets up a TCP connection, but in the case of a zone transfer, it doesnt have to do this very often.

      For a typical name query, only two UDP segments are involved, one for the request and one for the response. If you were to request a torrent file, you would need the first three TCP handshaking segments, one to send the request, and then 1 or 2( depending on the machine setup) to send back the torrent file.

      Normal DNS query: 2 segments
      Torrent file DNS query: 5 or 6 segments

      So that takes 2.5-3 times more processing time per request on the DNS server, and that doesnt even take into account the TCP session state.

      --
      Your credit card information wants to be free.
    5. Re:Not THAT small. by Gruturo · · Score: 1
      255 12,000, 25,000, or I've seen torrents that were several hundred K.

      Let's just use metatorrents then:
      A tiny .torrent, distributed via DNS TXT records, which points to the real .torrent (which could be over a megabyte - ever seen a DVD ISO's torrent?), which is served by bittorrent itself, with its bandwidth efficiency!

      I've actually seen this happen on bittorrent sites - and it would work perfectly in this situation. Maybe a "metatorrent" format for lower overhead could be designed, specifically targeted at this kind of usage (ie max 1MB files, stripped headers, etc) to make this thing work even better with DNS transport.

      Anyway I recall a previous (maybe 2 years ago?) /. story about DNS tunnelling, where the author described a proxy communicating via dns txt record and bypassing ISP's restrictions. But this one could be actually practical by using meta-torrents (or meta-meta-torrents, or ....).

      --

      Vacuum cleaners suck. Kings rule.
    6. Re:Not THAT small. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You would also need to be able to MAKE the tcp/ip transfer. Since zone transfers are like a blueprint of your network, many DNS servers are set to not respond via TCP except to their DNS master/slave systems, either via DNS config files or some sort of firewall.

    7. Re:Not THAT small. by maw · · Score: 1
      queries of more than 64kB

      You mean 512 bytes, the size of a UDP packet.

      --
      You're a suburbanite.
  23. Re:AOL News Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some Norwegian standup-comedian (Christoffer Schau) did something like that during the Quart Festival some years ago. Then again, once he placed a small-boat engine inside a pig corpse, and it floated!

  24. Re:AOL News Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That was cool. Can a fish really give you a blow job?

  25. Quick! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    someone figure out how to send files over DNS.

  26. Answer by MasTRE · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    > Everyone should be thankful that the files are not send over DNS.

    All your base are belong to us.

    --
    Must-not-watch TV!
  27. .torrent files are too big... by SharpFang · · Score: 1

    but ed2k:// URLs...? These are maybe 200 bytes long...

    --
    45 5F E1 04 22 CA 29 C4 93 3F 95 05 2B 79 2A B2
  28. Re:This is total bullshit by placeclicker · · Score: 1

    Except FTP is for Server \ Client tranfers

    BitTorrent is for splitting up the load between many machines. ( aka P2P )

    --

    Browse at -1, because trolls are often the most creative part of /.
  29. Standing up for fun/useless hacks! by iamdrscience · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There are already a number of posts on Slashdot talking about how this is a really bad idea. I disagree (with a big but). It would almost certainly be a Bad Idea (TM) if this were enacted and people tried to make it the main way of distributing torrents. However, I don't think the idea was meant to do that, I think it was more just to show that it could be done. It's akin to people who get put on the mainpage of Slashdot for hacking their Apple IIe's so that they have ethernet and then writing a simple graphical operating system for them so they can browse the web. Impractical and largely useless? Probably. Interesting and fun hack? Definitely.

    1. Re:Standing up for fun/useless hacks! by Gates_throws_tantrum · · Score: 1

      Impractical and largely useless? Probably. Interesting and fun hack? Definitely . . . said the skynet engineer just moments before it came alive(c)T5 - The fall of the gubinator

      --
      Free Iran
    2. Re:Standing up for fun/useless hacks! by g0at · · Score: 1

      I disagree (with a big but).

      wtf did you say about my mom?

      Why I oughtta--

  30. What's the Problem? by Abjifyicious · · Score: 5, Funny

    If people start using this extensively, and the DNS servers start getting clogged up by this, we'll just have to come up with a way to send DNS information over BitTorrent! That way, everything will balance out, right?

    1. Re:What's the Problem? by NotAnotherReboot · · Score: 1
      If people start using this extensively, and the DNS servers start getting clogged up by this, we'll just have to come up with a way to send DNS information over BitTorrent! That way, everything will balance out, right?

      Yes, first we'll use the DNS servers to get the torrent file, and then we'll use BitTorrent to get DNS information!
    2. Re:What's the Problem? by prog-guru · · Score: 1

      Actually, I bet bittorrent would be good for zone transfers. Rsync is cool too, but bittorrent would be even faster for big zones, like an rbl list (~50 MB).

      --

      chris@xanadu:~$ whatis /.
      /.: nothing appropriate.

    3. Re:What's the Problem? by AVee · · Score: 1

      Well we are used to that kind of thing aren't we? First we create IP to send data packets over all kinds of infrastructures. Then we put TCP on top of that to maintain connections. Then we go and create HTTP on top of TCP, basically to fetch larger packet (html files). Then we add cookies to that to maintain connections (session) with a server, basically bringing us back to where we where with tcp, only bigger 'packets' and more overhead. Since we have come such a long way we now start tunneling about every thing we can find over HTTP, such as IM, Kazaa, etc.

      I propose we first get DNS working on top of HTTP before and then create DNS cookies to maintain sessions with a DNS server wich can then be used to fetch the torrent.

  31. MOD PARENT DOWN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mods: PUT DOWN THE PIPE and refuse to mod up pointless Pinga-less/Sir Cock's-a-not "I can read the subject line and post two lines of meaningless bullshit" trolls!

    Unless, that is, you're part of the Sacred Jihad Against Slashdot, in which case you're doing a fine job of fucking up this site with your mod points.

  32. Missing the point are we? by pomac · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If someone adds TXT records to their dnses and in turn to their dns slaves it's their buissnies, how the hell will this affect all dnses available in the world? You generally ask the "owner dns" but yes, if you ask your "ips's dns" or someone elses dns then they might cache the result.

    But how bad is that really? How large is a .torrent file? And wouldn't linux distrobutiors enjoy this?

    $large_isp has several users who wants to download $linux_dist. The first user gets the TXT record and is off downloading. And the rest of em uses the cached record (if it is cached) in either case $linux_dist's webserver dosn't suffer as hard and they can always add more slave dnses to handle the load. Perhaps users even starts slave servers for that zone to help the dist.

    (Is there really a rule that says "you have to cache and store TXT for $TTL time".)

    And whats this with spelling? I mean you totally miss the point and... complain about spelling? is that the end of the world? =) /me is also a typical Swedish geek =)

  33. We have the technology! by DrZaius · · Score: 5, Interesting

    DNS is a resource locating service. For example, SRV records are a nicer way of autoconfiging your network.

    With SRV records, you say service.domain = port at host. You could do a dig for ldap.slashdot.org and findout that the ldap server is on port 389 at directory.slashdot.org.

    This is a slight extension of this. I don't know the exact implementation, but you could have a zone file that looks like:

    'file being served'.bt.slashdot.org SRV 0 0 PORT 'seed host'

    You can have multiple SRV's per resource and load balance between them.

    DNS is currently used for stuff like this all over the place. We already have the technology. IXFR means we can transfer just the changes in the zones when there are updates.

    Last time I checked, DNS is not over loaded and will scale to handle this. Even it 50% of the internet uses BT over DNS, 100% of the internet uses DNS for email, web and so forth. Every time an email is delivered, there are at least 6-10 DNS queries.

    DNS will not be bogged down.

    --
    -- DrZaius - Minister of Sciences and Protector of the Faith
    1. Re:We have the technology! by Chalybeous · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the info, Dr. Z!
      As I said, /me != g33k - I don't fully understand the tech, I just applied the bits I do know and a little supposition.
      I'm going to stay cynical, though - I reckon we'd need an awful lot of extra DNS servers to cope if someone put Star Wars Episode III on BitTorrent via DNS.

      Time for me to go do some reading. I have a lot of catching up to do with you guys!
      (Or maybe I should go watch my bootleg DVD of that cult musical, Stop the Planet of the Apes, I Want to Get Off!!)

      --

      "It is dark. You are likely to be eaten by a grue." -- Zork

    2. Re:We have the technology! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      They are not talking about transfering data directly through the DNS channels. They are talking about using the DNS system to replace the tracker server. In reality they are both doing basically the same thing -- they are both mearly creating an abstration that points to the actual electronic address where are resource is located.

      While I am not really to hot about tracking through BIND I do think that the two protocols can learn from each other. What makes DNS so great is that it is a distributed system which balances the load more or less evenly among connected nodes but the system is useless in dealing with dynamic IP, NAT, intermittent connections, etc. that effect most work stations at the fringe of the Internet. This is were P2P technologies like bittorent are starting to excel. Taken together these technologies could create a new hybridized standard that will once again allow workstations to be a presence on the Internet by creating a new Universal Resource Locator (URL) that will transend the barriors of DHCP, NAT, etc. and reinforce the advantage of distributed hierchies to peer to peer.

    3. Re:We have the technology! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Mod Parent Up.

      He's right about DNS only distributing the very small torrent file and not the actual data the torrent points to, and since DNS is a hierarchy of caching servers the load ain't going to be very bad either, it should scale nicely so that any high-demand torrent will quickly end up cached at the users' local DNS servers.

      Plus, the idea of applying lessons learned from the caching hierarchy of DNS and the dynamic join/leave handling of trackers and other p2p to come up with a better mousetrap for data distribution has merit.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    4. Re:We have the technology! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You could do a dig for ldap.slashdot.org and findout that the ldap server is on port 389 at directory.slashdot.org.

      That's _ldap._tcp.slashdot.org to you, mister.

      Or you could save yourself all the trouble and call the ldap server ldap.slashdot.org in the first place with a plain old CNAME or A record (pointing to a service address). Smart sysadmins have been doing that sort of thing for a while now, and DNS load balancing is pretty ghetto, these days, compared to DNAT load balancers.

      SRV records have come to the game sort of late.

    5. Re:We have the technology! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then why do you even post anything if you already know you know nothing about DNS?

      OH and BTW: you know nothing about bittorrent either.

    6. Re:We have the technology! by shaitand · · Score: 2, Informative

      Star wars episode III would not be downloadable bia dns, only the 200kish .torrent file would be.

    7. Re:We have the technology! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good. Fewer sappy love scenes.

    8. Re:We have the technology! by aldoman · · Score: 1

      But you could split the 2.1gb of SVCD up into tiny 110byte chunks and spread them all over the internet DNS servers. You'd need millions of chunks - and you'd probably be spending more bandwidth requesting each chunk of all these DNS servers than actually getting any data. But that would probably completely annhilate the internet.

    9. Re:We have the technology! by grishnav · · Score: 1
      They are talking about using the DNS system to replace the tracker server.
      No. They are talking about using the DNS system to replace a webserver that hosts a torrent file. Trackers will still be necessary.
    10. Re:We have the technology! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      RTFA -- better yet. Look at the code.

  34. -1, Wrong by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 5, Informative

    The tracker does not allocate bandwidth, it just introduces peers to each other.

    1. Re:-1, Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The introduction of peers is not something I'm interested in. If that were the case, I'd be fucking a 30-something upper-class pudgie white guy. I want to be introduced to a desperate young skinny female crack whore, who will do anything for a dollar. Peer-to-peer is dead. Introduce me to a skank and I'm interested.

    2. Re:-1, Wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just go down to the poor neighbourhood of what ever city you live in after 9 pm. I promise you will find what you're looking for.

    3. Re:-1, Wrong by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      well.. i did imply that i would be probably wrong.

      but it is possible for the tracker to actively choose who it introduces to who and keep track of how much stuff somebody has transmitted, no?

      well somebody should do a tracker like that if there weren't already a tracker like that out there(i know for sure that there is one that counts the 'quota' so to speak).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    4. Re:-1, Wrong by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the tracker could do that, although it might be too easy for peers to cheat by claiming that they uploaded more than they did.

  35. Re:Piracy???!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You really are, you know. And you should.

  36. MOD up +5 Insightful by odyrithm · · Score: 1

    Bloody well put mate, lets hope the mods get this rated up before everyone else miss's it.

    --
    moo
    1. Re:MOD up +5 Insightful by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your intelligence baffles me, as I realize how to spell.

  37. BitTorrent over DNS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We can call it the UberTorrent.
    I think the poster was Morris. .....unknown host slashdot.org

  38. Not necessarily evil by Webmonger · · Score: 0, Redundant

    It's true that this would wreak havok with existing DNS servers. But others have been twisting DNS to their own purposes before this, and it's caused no harm.

    DNS spam blacklists don't interfere with DNS, because they don't connect to the global DNS system. Hands up if you want to run a bittorrent DNS root server. Anyone? No one?

  39. Er. by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 1

    /. stripped out my "less than" sign.

    1. Re:Er. by Oopsz · · Score: 1

      Here you go. <

      :)

  40. Won't help the real bottleneck by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 2, Informative

    I would guess that serving .torrent files is not a problem compared to the bandwidth and CPU used by the tracker. When downloading a file via BitTorrent, you only download the .torrent once but you check in with the tracker every few minutes.

  41. I've thought about this... by cperciva · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've been wondering about (ab)using DNS for FreeBSD Update -- the idea being that when you're updating a system which is not up to date with security fixes, you might want to be behind a draconian firewall. (The caching benefits of DNS are a non-issue; updating a year-old RELEASE takes only a couple MB.)

    In the end, I decided that it would be more trouble than it's worth; but if someone else has written code I can borrow (I haven't looked in detail) then I might reconsider this.

  42. DNS isn't the only cache out there... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    This guy used DNS because it "caches" the data... Yeah, so what?

    Why not use a cache that's built for large quantities of data? I don't know, oh something like, maybe SQUID?

  43. Google cache? by Trbmxfz · · Score: 3, Interesting
    What about attempting to have Google cache torrent files by using a format that allows them to be embedded in the text of web pages?

    Often, slashdotted articles are still available thru Google. That might work.

    1. Re:Google cache? by WoTG · · Score: 1

      Good idea. The main problem I see with this is that the torrents that overload tracker servers probably rise (and fall) in popularity quite quickly - far quicker than Google will ever get around to indexing and caching a page.

      Really, this whole thing sounds like a nifty experiment that might have some use for folks trading warez or movies, but of minimal benefit to everyone else with legitimate torrents. For example, people releasing new Linux distributions can host a server to handle the tracking much more easily than they can put up a FTP server to handle the spike in d/l's.

  44. Re:AOL News Article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess you could say the guy had himself a blow fish?

  45. Re:First post in favor of fat people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I agree with this post.

  46. try reading first? by Shadowlore · · Score: 1

    From what I can tell he is merely talking about the data that says where the main download data (i.e. the iso or whatever) is. Kind of like storing a mirror list in the TXT record.

    So the ftp thing would not be an accurate comparison.

    --
    My Suburban burns less gasoline than your Prius.
  47. Oppositely - it is an excelent idea! by axxackall · · Score: 0
    DNS servers, as the name implies, are for serving DNS information.

    What a stupid definition! It's recursive without an exit criteria!

    Correct defintions is:

    DNS stands for Domain Name Service and it is for service to resolve names of domains.

    Persiod. You can use it for host name domains, their hosts, and their services. Yes, as it is specified in the protocol RFC documents, it can be used as a service locator. Therefore, if there is a service to share files, then its index (read: the service desciptor) can be served through DNS.

    Today Internet becomes more and more chaotic. Without improving directory and name services Internet will degrade in quality of serving its end-users. That's why I appreciate this idea. As well as I will apreciate further improvement of LDAP with SNMP (MIB), as well as I wish UDDI will become more mature and so on.

    Good improvement in DNS!

    --

    Less is more !
    1. Re:Oppositely - it is an excelent idea! by grahamlee · · Score: 1

      Or even an exit criterion.

    2. Re:Oppositely - it is an excelent idea! by axxackall · · Score: 1
      First, criteria can be used as a both singular (aka criterions) and plural form.

      Second, criteria is often used as a sigular form when it means compound criteria, or a logical expression with other criterions.

      Either way, it's usually aceptable to say an exit criteria, as well as just exit criteria.

      --

      Less is more !
    3. Re:Oppositely - it is an excelent idea! by grahamlee · · Score: 1

      I thought I'd better check what you said, given that it sounded wrong. So I did. And it would appear that criterion is the singular, criteria (less commonly criterions) is the plural, but that criteria is not acceptable in the singular. So the phrase "an exit criteria" is wrong.

    4. Re:Oppositely - it is an excelent idea! by axxackall · · Score: 1
      Your URL is not available (something about a subscription - you know, it's a varey bad taste on /. to give URL that requires to subscribe).

      Better check webster.com - first, it's free, second it's a pretty reliable source. and it says:

      The plural criteria has been used as a singular for nearly half a century

      You may want to looak at google how many pretty "oficial" documents use a single criteria.

      Finally, check "CiteSeer" (very "academic" computer-science article repository) for a single criteria.

      I understand you attempt to keep English clean, but there is not such thing as a standard English. It's a very alive social phenomenon, varying over the time and across social groups.

      And your attempt is especially loughable at /. :)

      --

      Less is more !
  48. It's BIND not DNS by Ricin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    From TFA: "due the nature of the DNS it *CACHES* the entries"

    No, that's BIND. And a BIND zonefile is just that: a BIND zonefile. All this is about BIND, not DNS. It does not work "over" or "with" or "through" DNS.

    It's not clever either. More like abusing other people's resources.

    1. Re:It's BIND not DNS by cyb97 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's kind of in the nature of a caching-nameserver to cache the lookups it does.

      This doesn't only apply to BIND, it applies to any nameserver used for cachingpurposes. Be it djbdns, MS-dns, etc.

      I can't see why people disrespect the author, it's a proof-of-concept; ie. it can be done. Nobody says it should be done at all...
      (and it seems to me like half of the posters here either didnt RTFA or has misunderstood major parts of the article)

  49. torrent files search application by polyp2000 · · Score: 4, Informative


    I discovered this the other day,
    http://www.torrentsearch.org/
    basically its a p2p program that downloads the whole database of .torrent files from mirrors.
    You can then search for torrents through the gui. You can then download the .torrent file to hard disk from whence it can be opened with your bit torrent client. Currently there are about 3000 torrents on the database. So maybe you wont need to ditch voracity or suprnova yet. Its definitely a useful addition to the bittorrent arsenal. The current download is a win32 app, but I have found it works fine with crossover wine. Would be nice if it were ported to linux ( I dont think it would be that difficult its a relatively simple app!) It would be nice if everyone used the same system for hosting trackers and torrent files.

    nick ...

    --
    Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
    1. Re:torrent files search application by kryptkpr · · Score: 1

      Beware of this program; to my knowledge is uses (illegal) anonymous FTP dumps to store it's files, and contains spyware.

      --
      DJ kRYPT's Free MP3s!
    2. Re:torrent files search application by XO · · Score: 1

      Sure! It's GREAT.. if you want 11,000,000 pop-up pr0n ads, and then the program crashes once you finally get all the ads closed.

      --
      "Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
    3. Re:torrent files search application by Chronowerx · · Score: 1

      Yep - a couple of versions back it tried to download a virus onto my machine as an 'uninstaller'..great!

      We need the same program to be stripped of the adware by someone who knows what they are doing, and then re-distributed...

    4. Re:torrent files search application by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Funny when I ran it under wine (linux) i didnt get any ad's or pron. Cant say about the spyware though. Might be a different kettle of fish on a win32 platform. None the less, thanks for you're advice and i'll be a little more careful about using it now!

    5. Re:torrent files search application by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      spyware filth; it posts links to whore sites all over your computer, install lop adware and title bars popup gallore, your own special PoS toolbar, new homepage and lots of other shit. Definately a giant flaming piece of shit. An Adware and McAfee scan later and I was free of the vermin.

    6. Re:torrent files search application by WhiterThanWhite · · Score: 1

      It took me 3 days to figure out how to uninstall all the crap arrived with the TorrentSearch package. I can now highly recommend RegCleaner, Spybot Search and Destroy, and of course, PestPatrol. Gottcha! As I said in my nasty I sent mail to the site, "...it's almost certainly VirusWare...". I've never seen anything so highly defensive in its tactics to remain installed in a long while. At least three redundant copies of the information must be located and removed...

      --

      My computer is an IMSAI. Don't you love those paddle switches! Who can get by without blinking LEDs?

    7. Re:torrent files search application by WhiterThanWhite · · Score: 1

      In fact, I'm almost convinced the software was written by someone trying to stop music, movies and software theft... ?

      --

      My computer is an IMSAI. Don't you love those paddle switches! Who can get by without blinking LEDs?

  50. Things just went from bad to worse by t0ny · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Great. Now we can have a new breed of viruses which spread their payloads via DNS. I think Berkley is going to have to put in some overtime making a new point release to prevent this from happening...

    I guess one could sarcastically say thanks for the proof of concept, real good job. But then again, its better they did it and let everyone know it could be done, rather than having to find out about it 'in the wild'. I just hope its easy to prevent.

    --

    Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.

    1. Re:Things just went from bad to worse by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DNS was *designed* for this. This isn't the first time DNS has been used to transport non-DNS-related data.

      I do believe it's an abuse of the DNS system, but this guy isn't some kind of messiah, enabling viruses and whatnot - the ability has existed all along.

  51. Re:who uses bittorrent anyway? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I get all my porn from bit torrent. You're such a n00b.

  52. Screenshot! by ispel · · Score: 1

    $ dig txt 0_1197_56633ab0d90f43c68ed1b47358eccfe7.netrogenic .com

    ; <<>> DiG 9.2.1 <<>> txt 0_1197_56633ab0d90f43c68ed1b47358eccfe7.netrogenic .com
    ;; global options: printcmd
    ;; Got answer:
    ;; ->>HEADER<<- opcode: QUERY, status: NOERROR, id: 51320
    ;; flags: qr rd ra; QUERY: 1, ANSWER: 1, AUTHORITY: 0, ADDITIONAL: 0

    ;; QUESTION SECTION:
    ;0_1197_56633ab0d90f43c68ed1b47358eccfe7 .netrogenic.com. IN TXT

    ;; ANSWER SECTION:
    0_1197_56633ab0d90f43c68ed1b47358eccfe7. netrogenic.com. 3118 IN TXT "64383a616e6e6f756e636534333a687474703a2f2f746f727 2656e742e64756c75672e64756b652e6564753a363936392f6 16e6e6f756e636531333a6372656174696f6e2064617465693 130363830353734393265343a696e666f64353a66696c65736 c64363a6c656e6774686935373565343a706174686c363a4d4 435"

    ;; Query time: 3 msec
    ;; SERVER: xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx#53(xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx)
    ;; WHEN: Sun Nov 30 13:13:56 2003
    ;; MSG SIZE rcvd: 337

  53. What's on a kids mind? by XenonChloride · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    evank40767 kindly linked to an old picture stored on his own AOL account.

    evank40767, don't the guys at AOL suggest having something like index.html rather than granting access to the whole directory?

    And please stop crying now, it is too late anyway. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
    1. Re:What's on a kids mind? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    2. Re:What's on a kids mind? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why don't you e-mail him and tell him?

    3. Re:What's on a kids mind? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He likes to post on RPGA Forums and .

  54. Funny thought by ispel · · Score: 1

    Since people are serving data over DNS...

    Why not server domain name information over HTTP?

    1. Re:Funny thought by cyb97 · · Score: 1

      Head over to http://www.whatismyip.com It's already done...

  55. Host Files by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    See, I told you DNS would cause problems

    You should have listened to me and stuck with Host files ;-)

  56. Uhhh.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ITYM: >

  57. This is just me by gxv · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Maybe I'm a bit conservative but I still think p2p networks are evil. They consume all aviable bandwidth, they're hard to control - limiting Kazaa for network larger than 3 computers is a nightmare - it uses all aviable ports, you have to actually filter it by IP packet contents, looking for certain strings in packets. They're also damn easy for abuse - name your trojan preetingirlsuckingdog.exe and tadam! next day it's everywhere.
    I know they can be used for 'decent' purposes also, like torrents lately for sharing kernel sources. But still - what was wrong with ftp/http downloading?

    1. Re:This is just me by sharph · · Score: 1

      bittorrent is not your regular p2p. read up on how it works and report back later.

    2. Re:This is just me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I bet you can better see the advantage of p2p with the help of a story problem. (Run AWAY!)

      Let's say that you run an ftp server and want to put a linux distribution on it, slackware, fedora, whatever. Let's also say that connected to this ftp server is a 1.5 mbps T1 line. And it won't go down until enough people have a copy of the distribution to drop the load back down, or you remove the distribution off your server.

      But if you choose the latter, all it does is to increase the load on the other mirrors.

      It takes one person around 3 hours to down load one set of CD's from you. But the problem is that every Nth person requires another 3 hours. That's why people set up ftp and http mirrors to help distribute the load.

      But the problem comes when Redhat makes a new release of fedora. The network of ftp/http mirrors can only support N number of users. However the demand can often be around 100 or 1000 times that. Your ftp server and T1 line have been saturated.

      That's what makes BT and p2p networks so effective. It reduces demand from the primary sources and shifts burden to the users downloading it. If 1000 users each have a piece of the file, the 1001st user can immediately find sources to download from without asking the original source.

      Ah, but most p2p networks don't allow the user to cap the upload rate, sucking all available bandwidth for each transaction. Bittorrent at least allows you to throttle how much each upload can take.

  58. that's an even worse idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That sounds like a great formula to get something never adopted. The savings from DNS come because everyone at an ISP is using the same server, so responses get cached. Please call up AT&T and ask them to set up a BT-DNS server for you. Let me know how that works out.

    Then, of course, there's the fact that you've made the entire network dependent on the root servers, whose only purpose is to run this file-sharing network. Good luck protecting the poor sobs running them from RIAA. Remember a little company called "Napster"?

    1. Re:that's an even worse idea by circusnews · · Score: 1
      Perhaps this will never be adopted, perhaps it will, it really makes no difference. What it does do is begin to open up a new set of possibilities.

      The real question is will some one else come up with something else built on the concept? Will it lead to a revolution in DNS system? Or perhaps a new version of Freenet? a new IM project? Perhaps some one will turn the concept into an application-directory-service, one where 500 different distributed apps use it for various things. Or perhaps someone else will look at this and see another new use for some other tried and true tech.

      The point is not always that something should be done, but that a potential value exists in a unique idea (or in this case, an extension to an old idea), and should be given a closer look by the community at large.

  59. Know what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm with you 99%.

  60. This is exactly what BIND was intended for by Zip+In+The+Wire · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Its design supports more networking addressing schemes than TCP/IP. These Bittorrent files are just addresses one/two abstraction levels from raw ip addresses. No big deal. You all sound like a bunch of whiney old ladies. Death of DNS! News at 11! The impact this will have on the DNS system you couldn't even measure with an electron microscope so just calm down.

  61. Only the torrent files are being distributed by unixbob · · Score: 2, Informative

    Lots of postings discuss the load being placed on the DNS servers as lots of mp3's and binaries are transferred through them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding this but surely it's just the .torrent files themselves that are being distributed. The torrent files are just pointers to the trackers which keep a record of the peers who have the files. Distributing the .torrent files probably wouldn't put a massive load on DNS Servers.

    --
    The Romans didn't find algebra very challenging, because X was always 10
  62. Torrent metadata file is pure crap by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The file is encoded with bEncode which is ugly, not human readable, pure rubbish. Why couldn't he use xml and schema like the rest of the developers in the 21st century.

  63. Torrent Files not the source of slowness by jimi1283 · · Score: 1

    For most torrent sites, the slowness comes from the webserver being used as the tracker. This is not true of SuprNova, as it has many mirrors. I personally have not had trouble with most SuprNova mirrors myself, though I imagine there are probably some poor mirrors out there hosting the files.

  64. Donkey only needs 16 bytes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually the only bit you need from the ed2k-URL is the MD4, the rest is only of cosmetic value (sort of). So you only need 16 bytes!

    That's torrent: centralised servers that often are down (easy targets) and files most people share only a couple of days max. The only thing better from the ed2k is the speed, which of course is higher since people don't share that much. Ed2k has mldonkey, a wonderful cross-platform client which has run 24/7 on my boxes without leaking memory (compare that to e/xMule). Plus it does torrents and other networks too.

  65. Umm....and what about nazi ISPs? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And what happens when nazi ISPs (who view P2P bandwidth with disdain) start fudging their DNS servers to stop caching BT records? "Woo Hoo! I got BT bandwidth down, kazaa, napster, etc. to go!"

  66. No!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... but I am gay.

    Wanna fuck? Do you like top, pillow biting or versatile?

  67. people who create/spread this stuff should be shot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    that includes the person who originally created this, the person who posted it on that website and then wrote about it, anyone who links to it and even CmdrTaco for being the dumbass of dumbasses and posting it on the largest "hey guys, look how i can take down the internet" forum called slashdot. what you retards dont realize when you said "nobody should or probably will try this because it would fuck over the internet so bad, its just cool to have proofs of concept" is that all it takes is one dumbfuck to try it and we're all fucked. and you know that about 100 dumbfucks are already out there improving this god awful code and implementing. congrats, youre all dumbfucks.

  68. Kazaa over WINS by voxlobster · · Score: 1

    man...i laughed my ass off at that one, imagine all the broadcast traffic. You'd DDOS the entire internet.

  69. Verisign Employee? by InfiniteWisdom · · Score: 4, Funny

    And he's coded what is obviously the *worst idea ever!*

    Does he work for Verisign?

    1. Re:Verisign Employee? by roninmagus · · Score: 1

      Or Belkin? :-D

  70. Why not have BitTorrent link to newsgroups? by peteo · · Score: 1

    newsgroups are by far the Biggest distributed file servers and are cached at the ISP level. Why not make a bittorrent client that will hook up to your local Newsgroup server and download the file? (sure not all ISPs have all the newsgroups but the good ones have allot)

    1. Re:Why not have BitTorrent link to newsgroups? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      You still need a tracker to tell you what other peers to connect to; that's the bottleneck.

    2. Re:Why not have BitTorrent link to newsgroups? by LinuxHam · · Score: 1

      I'm with you. I've said for years that apt-get and rpm should be modified to take news:// URLs, with digitally signed binaries being posted to groups. The pan newsreader seems the perfect candidate to modify to handle reassembling binaries on behalf of the package managers. Package maintainers could ship updates over dialup and not have to maintain a single mirror. Oh, but that would be "abusing someone else's resources".

      --
      Intelligent Life on Earth
  71. kazaa by grey3 · · Score: 1

    Why not use another p2p application like kazaa to host the torrents.

  72. rated +1: by request by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    rated +1: by request

  73. So this looks like a fun idea, but... by Saiai+Hakutyoutani · · Score: 1

    ...how do you get the torrent file on to the DNS? Is there some magical request that you send it in order to get your torrent chunks on to a DNS server?

    Also, .torrent files could be distributed via XDCCs and P2P programs.

    1. Re:So this looks like a fun idea, but... by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      The idea is that you run your own DNS server.

  74. using bind for file distribution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Some years ago I got interested in distributing files over DNS, so I went looking for info on the subject. I found that MIT had already developed a special purpose DNS server to perform NIS like functions with DNS called HESIOD. HESIOD has now been incorporated into every copy of BIND. You setup a HESIOD zone like this:

    zone "example" hs {
    ...

    };

  75. Metatorrents by ranmachan · · Score: 1

    But if you make torrents of the torrent files it would be feasible:

    ranma@melchior:~$ ls -l test.torrent
    -rw-r--r-- 1 ranma users 111443 003-11-30 21:58 test.torrent
    ranma@melchior:~$ ls -l test.torrent.torrent
    -rw-r--r-- 1 ranma users 171 003-11-30 21:58 test.torrent.torrent

    Now if it were possible to specify multiple trackers in one torrent, it would be even better, because even if one were offline the others could be used.

    --
    Tobias
    1. Re:Metatorrents by Saeger · · Score: 1
      Now if it were possible to specify multiple trackers in one torrent

      The multitracker spec has already been implemented in many of the better bittorrent clients.

      --

      --
      Power to the Peaceful
  76. DeCSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This has been used to distribute the DeCSS source. Check out #9 here . I love the fact that the DVDCCA naveserver has the data.

  77. This idea has been floating for a loooong while. by rkt · · Score: 1

    http://security.royans.net/info/articles/dnsinfohi ding/

  78. file distribution via DNS by davedoom · · Score: 1
    The Hesiod file distribution system was developed by MIT for this purpose. It has been incorporated into BIND for a decade.

    This is a quote from the man page for named.conf on solaris.
    The hesiod class is for an information service from MIT's Project Athena. It is used to share information about vari- ous systems databases, such as users, groups, and printers. More information can be found at ftp://athena- dist.mit.edu/pub/ATHENA/usenix/athena_changes.PS. The key- word hs is a synonym for hesiod.
  79. constructive criticisms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    First off, let the guy hack :P

    just some constructive criticisms.

    1) The real bandwidth and centralization problem is trackers and not distributing the .torrent files.

    This hack is somewhat of a premature optimization.
    Web servers can handle hundred to thousands of .torrent files per second. Static content is very fast.

    2) There is great temptation to use TXT records for other things, but DNS admins generally don't appricate this kind of use. You have to remember that a lot of DNS servers are memory limited.

    3) spellcheck everything! people judge you and your work by the quality of your spelling.

    ispell is particularly handy. :)

  80. Next step is to use DNS for a RAID ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... filesystem

  81. Is that EULA for real?! "Please Jack My Computer" by Dr.+Ion · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sounds like a neat program. Unfortunately, it sounds like a festering mound of virus that would singlehandedly OWN any machine it touches and any unfortunate user too impatient or stupid not to click "AGREE: Totally Hose My Machine". I'm quoting the EULA here, not making this stuff up. Gator's spyware is green with envy:


    By accepting this agreement, I certify the following:

    4) I understand that by accepting these terms and conditions, this program will be installed on my computer and my web browser home and search page will be changed in order to allow me access.

    5) I also acknowledge that a Desktop toolbar will be installed on this system as a stand-alone module and that the Desktop toolbar will update itself from time to time in accordance with the EULA Privacy Policy.

    6) I further understand that an accessory tool bar will be added to my web browser which will remain visible as long as the software is installed and agree that I wish to use your search engine for my
    web browsers auto search option and default error age.

    7) To insure you always have the latest version and for your convenience this software will automatically update itself from time to
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    And it does go on.

  82. Proxy cache? by TeknoHog · · Score: 1

    Umm, if the point is to reduce http traffic, I think the obvious solution should be a caching proxy server. Your ISP should already have one. I admit the story was fun, and it must have been great to hack on it, but it's not really about caching.

    --
    Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
  83. Block that, ISPs! by Trejkaz · · Score: 1

    Ha! I'd love to see the Australian ISPs block DNS. Suck that.

    --
    Karma: It's all a bunch of tree-huggin' hippy crap!
  84. This should be patented! by Dwonis · · Score: 1
    I'm really surprised this hasn't been patented. After all, it's a novel idea, and it would be extremely difficult to find any prior art. Hell, I'm sure you could make all the usual arguments for software patents for this concept.

    I love the US patent system.

    1. Re:This should be patented! by gcaseye6677 · · Score: 1

      Have no fear, AT&T will certainly find that this violates one of their 'data transfer' patents.

  85. Re:Piracy???!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dude! You saw that vidio to? I don't know. If I was him I would be worried. From the look of her, the only way she's getting those guys to put thier members in her, is to pay them and big. Shivers

  86. Large ISP resources and Torrent. by chathamhouse · · Score: 1

    FYI, as someone who designs systems for a large-ish ISP, I would rather people get their linux distro from our mirror server. .torrent just cannot match the serving power for our customer base, and certainly not the economics.

    The fetching of linux distro ISO's is often used to justify BT, but the author's own notes point to suprnova, which has trackers to very little content that is licensed for free re/distribution.

    And yes, the mirror is big and powerful, and has all major linux and *bsd's, with some minor ones too.

    Nevertheless, I'll now keep an eye for .torrent tracker data in the DNS servers. It'll be interesting to see the result.

    1. Re:Large ISP resources and Torrent. by pomac · · Score: 1

      (Nice to get a reply from someone like this =))

      Yes i agree that a locally stored mirror of a file would be faster and better, but, you seem to be running/help to run one of those isps that are good. My isp only offers windows games updates and mainly CounterStrike at that. So for me .torrent might be the only highspeed download left at some point.
      (My isp offers 10mbit to it's costumers and are working on offering 100mbit)

      And yes i agree, i mainly wanted to oppose the views that it would kill the root servers etc etc =)

  87. Frankly... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...the .torrent files are the least of anyone's worries. It's the trackers that are under the serious load, and put the hard limit on the scalability of BitTorrent.

    It's a shame - it's about a good Kademlia implementation away from being a near-optimal non-anonymous distributed legal content distribution mechanism.

    Of course, these days non-anonymous really isn't good enough...

  88. I don't think it's such a bad idea. by 0x0d0a · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't see what the issue is, exactly. DNS data is propagated lazily. The only issues is that you'd have maybe three machines storing the data instead of one.

    Unless .torrent files are particularly big -- I happened to have one on my hard drive, which was under 512 bytes.

    I'm not sure that there's much point in using DNS to propagate .torrent files -- it seems that USENET or similar would be a better choice, given that they tend to only be useful for a short period of time, that announcements of new torrents is a useful characteristic of a .torrent propagation system, and that archiving torrents is useful -- but I also don't really see the harm in this.

    Given the kind of load that nameservers happily handle today when you hit a webpage with a number of entries (especially for those annoying little "badges") (and the nameserver potentially gets twenty or more lookup requests all at once), there can't be a huge processing hit.

    There *might* be a storage hit...but suppose there are 10,000 torrent files out there, and each is 1K. That's just 10MB of data, and I doubt anyone is interested in storing all available torrents.

    Finally, I suppose that bandwidth might be an issue, but I suspect that given the frequency of DNS lookups and the infrequency of someone needing a new .torrent file, the bandwidth will not be an issue.

    I have done plenty of fun things with DNS and run a small DNS server, but I will freely admit that I am not a DNS wizard, and leave it to the folks on NANOG to debate the merits of this.

    For my money, though, this is cute and not harmful at all, though it might not be particularly useful.

    1. Re:I don't think it's such a bad idea. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I've seen torrent files that are in the area of 10-100k. Sometimes larger.

  89. An even worst idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Let Verisign run the TLD servers for that BT-DNS network. Then if it thinks you typed in the wrong file, it passes you several megabytes of advertising for Verisign and friends.

  90. Tier 1 ISP DNS servers is what I meant. by color+of+static · · Score: 1

    These beasts are different from root servers (although many of the same entities run them). Many ISPs run one or more levels of caching DNS servers to reduce load and latency. This is where most of the caching would occur.

    1. Re:Tier 1 ISP DNS servers is what I meant. by boots@work · · Score: 1

      OK, those machines will see more requests. Some of the requests are going to miss. On the other hand, if a new Linux release has just come out and many people are trying to get it, they'd be likely to get many hits on the DNS records, and that's a good thing.

      It's probably easier on the ISP to get a little more DNS traffic than it is for everyone to download ISOs over plain HTTP.

      As I said above, it's unlikely to be statistically significant because the .torrent file is so small compared to the actual download.

      It's also likely to be absolutely dwarfed by the pointless queries generated by misconfigured clients: Windows machines looking up Netbios names in DNS and similar shit. I seem to remember a survey showing that fully half the queries to root nameservers were unnecessary.

      DNS is pretty good at serving cachable small chunks of information used for service location. Putting Bittorrent service location into isn't necessarily a terrible idea, though the implementation could use a lot of work.

  91. SPYWARE WARNING by veritron · · Score: 2, Informative

    Torrentsearch installs a LOT of spyware (more than it admits) - I recommend running it on a PTP bitch box rather than your regular machine.

  92. Better (?) half baked idea--- by waferhead · · Score: 1

    How about something that would propagate and self refer via googles cache? (Or something like that) .torrent files are usually 80K, so were not talking even remotely a slashdot hit here.

    It might work, assuming google mines its own cache... might be a public service or hell, don't know.

    1. Re:Better (?) half baked idea--- by waferhead · · Score: 1

      that was supposed to be LESS THAN 80k, but the filters got the ""

  93. A Friendlier Approach by AmVidia+HQ · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I've circulated the idea of using DNS around the BitTorrent mail list for some time now, but it uses the DNS in a different way from distributing the torrent files themselves through DNS caches. It's doubtful putting data inside caches would "bog down the DNS system", but to turn DNS into essentially web servers is:
    1. An ugly, ugly hack, and a wrong tool for the job (tm)
    2. Wrong using others' resources in a way that is not intended (serving binary data)

    My goal of using the DNS is however the same: solve the dead trackers problem. But to serve data directly from DNS, my idea to use what DNS is for: route traffic. You request the torrent's 40 byte info_hash as a subdomain of the DNS server's domain, and it returns you the optimal tracker's IP. For example:

    {torrent_hash}.bthub.com

    and bthub.com will be where i'll host the DNS service. It's basically a dynamic DNS server, updated frequently, of all known torrent hashes from different trackers in its database (my estimation is around 15000 - 20000 torrents, or subdomains. I know because I run a BT search engine, see my sig). This way, you don't "hack" the DNS, but you get the benefit of:
    1. Dynamic routing to the tracker with the most ppl downloading your file, or the biggest "swarm", and hence the highest speed
    2. Re-routing to a SINGLE new tracker when one dies

    The 2nd benefit is important, as the case today is ppl just randomly pick a new tracker when the original dies, without knowing how big the swarm is on the new tracker. This splits the original torrent swarm across multiple trackers, which don't talk with each other (yet).

    There are some discussion on the mail list of adding connectivity between the trackers, similar to how you link IRC servers together into a network. But that's no where near a proposal, and using DNS to act as a "hub" for the trackers would need the least effort and changes to the BT protocol and trackers.

    I discussed this idea in detail on this thread "Decentralizing trackers: Use hubs", feel free to take a look.

    --
    VIVA1023.com | Political Fashion.
    1. Re:A Friendlier Approach by AmVidia+HQ · · Score: 1

      After RTFA'ing, the article's idea of using the DNS is not even about solving the tracker centralization problem, it's only a clever hack to use DNS to deliver the .torrent files.

      A much better idea is to implement a P2P torrent distribution system, where the site that "post" the torrent only gives you a URL in somewhat the form of

      btp://{tracker_URL}

      then you connect to the swarm on that tracker, where some peers upload the originally .torrent metadata to get you started. Combine this with my DNS tracker routing idea (bthub.com as the tracker_URL), and you solve both problems of overloaded tracker and torrent web servers.

      The original idea is neat, but as he said himself, should not and cannot be implemented on a mass scale.

      --
      VIVA1023.com | Political Fashion.
  94. Anyone got a filly cheezsteak? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Am in neeed of da cheeez...

  95. Cute. but useless. by Harik · · Score: 1
    a .torrent file is fairly small and easy to fetch anyway. The high load on the servers comes from running the Tracker. While all a user downloading sees is http://moviez-site.com/downloads/Matrix-Reloaded.[ SCR].torrent, when he fires that into his BT client it goes to the tracker server (quite often the same server) and hits /tracker.php?info_hash=xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. And again. and again. and again.

    BT polls the tracker asking for peers. Compare it to the era of reverse-engineered napster: you've got lots of clients connected to one (of many) napster clones, none of them talking to each other.

    If BT's one redeeming feature (swarming downloads with economic model of tit-for-tat) was put into a real P2P app you would see a massive increase in filesharing. In the end, as long as you know a valid info_hash, you know you're getting the right file.

  96. Not surprising... by abertoll · · Score: 1

    This shouldn't be surprising to anyone. DNS can store any sort of data. It's just a system for distributing keys and values...

    --
    "he drew his sword Ringil that glittered like ice... and he wounded Morgoth with seven wounds..."