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Your Cell Phone Is Tracking You

PollGuy writes "I had never heard until this article in the New York Times (sacrifice of first born required) about services that let regular people track the locations of other regular people via their cell phones. Nor this: 'A federal mandate that wireless carriers be able to locate callers who dial 911 automatically by late 2005 means that millions of phones already keep track of their owners' whereabouts.'"

102 of 453 comments (clear)

  1. a simple solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    turn your cell phone off when you dont want to be tracked!

    1. Re:a simple solution by pentalive · · Score: 2, Insightful

      or perhaps you have to go so far as remove the battery.

    2. Re:a simple solution by Beardydog · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Turning it off "when you don't want to be tracked" implies a period, however brief, when being tracked is a-o-k. I don't personally mind if anyone watches me go from my house to work, and back again every single day, but then, some jobs have higher security concerns than "Dietary Aide"...

  2. This just in... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Its possible to track the location of people who have landlines too. It's called a phone book.

    1. Re:This just in... by Kelerain · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wow! Your phone book tells you where the person you are calling is, even when they are out of the house??

      I gotta get me one of them!

    2. Re:This just in... by FuegoFuerte · · Score: 5, Informative

      I know pretty much all the newer SprintPCS phones have some tracking capability... they also have a "location on/off" option though, which can be used to disable the tracking on all but 911 calls.

    3. Re:This just in... by Epistax · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wow! Caller ID is a totally new concept to you??
      Wow! You think anyone has access to this information on cell phones??
      Wow! You can think of a practical situation where the location on your cell will be used against you??

    4. Re:This just in... by nolife · · Score: 3, Informative

      There are old threads on alt.cellular.sprintpcs that indicte that even with the tracking turned off, the signal is still transmitted all the time. The E911 only selection tells Sprint to not release your information to third parties. Basically, that choice on your phone sets a flag on the Sprint network, not actually disabling the position xmit function of the phone itself. I do not frequent alt.cellular.sprintpcs much any more but I have not read anything that indicates that is not the case.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    5. Re:This just in... by ctxspy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1) Caller ID comparison is silly.
      2) Nobody said "anyone" ... I think the concern is that the information exists, and there is confusion as to who does and does not have access to the info.
      3) Yes.
      a) Ticket for talking while driving?
      b) Where were you on the night of BLAH?.. Oh
      yeah, well your phone says you were HERE!
      c) A text message saying "Would you like to
      buy some CRAP?" as you walk by the CRAP
      store.

    6. Re:This just in... by wwwillem · · Score: 2, Funny

      You can think of a practical situation where the location on your cell will be used against you?

      And anyway, 50% of cell-phone conversations start with "hey John, I'm now on the 69 at King's and I think it will take me 20 more minutes to get...." or something similar. At least that's what I normally overhear on airports, in trains, etc.

      --
      Browsers shouldn't have a back button!! It's all about going forward...
    7. Re:This just in... by Epistax · · Score: 2, Insightful

      a) Ticket for talking while driving?
      That's illegal, and I personally think you're an asshole for doing it, and think you deserve to have a ticket, with a three strike no license policy.

      b) Where were you on the night of BLAH?.. Oh yeah, well your phone says you were HERE!.
      So you are suggesting that police with a warrant should not have this information? This ties in with...

      c) A text message saying "Would you like to buy some CRAP?" as you walk by the CRAP store.
      Once again you are assuming anyone has it. Damn boy.

    8. Re:This just in... by ctxspy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Let me reiterate the 2nd point of my original comment:

      Nobody said "anyone" ... I think the concern is that the information exists, and there is confusion as to who does and does not have access to the info.

      Now, please re-evaluate all of the above provided that you dont know WHO can access such information.

    9. Re:This just in... by Dick+Faze · · Score: 2, Insightful
      a) Ticket for talking while driving? That's illegal, and I personally think you're an asshole for doing it, and think you deserve to have a ticket, with a three strike no license policy.

      Sorry, its not illegal. Not sure where you live, but in the US there's only a few places where it is illegal to use a hand-held phone without a headset, but there is no place in the US where it is illegal to USE a phone while driving with a headset. In fact, a few years ago there was talk about making it part of the drivers test in Hawaii.

      b) Where were you on the night of BLAH?.. Oh yeah, well your phone says you were HERE!. So you are suggesting that police with a warrant should not have this information? This ties in with...

      Correct, they should not have this information without your consent. This is a fifth amendment issue.

      c) A text message saying "Would you like to buy some CRAP?" as you walk by the CRAP store. Once again you are assuming anyone has it. Damn boy.

      The information is owned by a private company, so they can do whatever they please with it, including selling some or all of it to the CRAP store for the purpose described. As soon as someone figures out how to market it properly, anyone with the $$ will have it.

    10. Re:This just in... by lynx_user_abroad · · Score: 3, Insightful
      b) Where were you on the night of BLAH?

      This is the wrong example to use. A more correct example would run something like this:

      "Mister Anderson, our records indicate that you spent a portion of last night attending a political rally for a certain political candidate. You should realize the policies promoted by that candidate would be detrimental to the corporate objectives of this organization and could result in our having to terminate certain employees. You have a choice to make, Mister Anderson, do I make myself clear?"

      --

      The thing about things we don't know is we often don't know we don't know them.

  3. Indeed... by dilweed · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Just bought a phone for my wife tonight and I was interested to see that it has GPS included. Interesting privacy and safety issue.

    1. Re:Indeed... by dilweed · · Score: 4, Funny

      It's incredibly informative that I bought a phone. How would you have known otherwise?

    2. Re:Indeed... by Dakkus · · Score: 5, Informative

      .
      A <== A cell phone base station.

      ________ ________
      / \/ \ Here you can see how this thing works.
      / /\ 2 \ The base station one knows that you
      / / \ \ are within the range of the circle
      / . / \ . \ around it away from it. it knows it by
      \ 1 A \____/_A_ / measuring the strength of your phone's
      \ /\XX/ \ / signal.
      \ / \/ \ / The same way, base station 2 knows
      \____/___/\_______\/ your distance from it, too and can draw
      / . \ a circle, as well. Now, with these two
      \ A / base stations we know that the phone
      \ / user is in one of the two intersections
      \ 3 / of the circles around base stations one
      \________/ and two.
      Then there is the base station three. It
      only needs to know that its signal is not strong enough to reach the
      northern intersection of circles of base stations 1 and 2. That way we
      know that the user must be in the southern one of the intersections of
      circles drawn by base stations 1 and 2. Please note that in this drawing
      base station 3's circle doesn't tell the distance from the phone user,
      but the maximum possible range it can reach. (Because I didn't think
      when I drew the pic.)

      Even if the distance info isn't that accurate (meaning that you're using
      an old crappy analog cell phone most of you americans use), we can still
      plot your location quite exactly. If we just know that the phone is
      within the maximum ranges of all three base stations pictured here, the
      phone must be in the area I've marked with X letters. Often there are
      even more than three base stations around you. That makes getting the
      location info even more accurate. So, in a city you can be located with
      an error marging of only few tens of meters. In suburbs the error
      margin is at least here in Finland some 500m. (Actually less, but this
      distance is used by the cell phone company to make sure the phone is
      100% surely in the area shown.

      Here it just became legal to see where your kids' phones are going if
      you've signed a contract in advance. You go to internet and give your
      username and password. Then the site will plot your kid's location on
      a map.

      I'm really surprised that this many of the /. people didn't this in
      advance. Here in Europe right about everyone knows that. And has known
      since something like 1995 or so. Tracking people by their cell phones
      has been possible as long as there has been cell phones.
      Guess your government and media hasn't for some "odd" reason wanted its
      servants to know too much of what is possible.

      I don't see what damn problem it is if you can be located if you're
      dying in a pit. I remember seeing in the TV program 911 how one woman
      almost died when she didn't know where she was while she called the 911
      from a landlined phone. I didn't understand why they didn't just look
      where she was calling from and send an ambulance there. It only takes
      about 0,0000000(and so on)0001 seconds to find out that info, not a
      minute like in the hollywood movies.
      The info about who's calling can be asked from a telephone company. It
      has to know it to be able to bill someone for calling.
      Before you had to know where you are to get an ambulance. If you didn't
      know, you died. Cute. Now you just need to call 911 or 112 depending on
      what continent you're in and say "I'm dying. Get me to hospital." and
      the ambulance will come.

    3. Re:Indeed... by Mike+McTernan · · Score: 4, Informative

      Err... if this is GSM then that's not is entirely accurate in my professional opinion.

      If the phone is in idle mode, i.e. not in call, it will monitor the surrounding cells and select (called camping) the cell with the best selection value which is a function of signal strength and some other parameters set by the network. Also, cells will be grouped into location areas, also known as paging areas, and it is only when the mobile moves from one area to another that it transmits to the network to inform that it has moved to a new location area. Therefore, normally it is only possible to track the user to a location area, which may span a number of cells, each of which could be upto ~35km in radius.

      There is a extension called EOTD which uses neigbour cell timing and signal strength estimations to calculate positioning information, but this requires extra support in the base stations and mobile, and isn't widely deployed. Also, since the mobile has to make measurements and report them to the network, this is only done if the network requests it; it would drain your battery to constantly report position.

      In dedicate mode, when making a call, the mobile does report signal strengths of the top 6 neigbour cells to the network reasonably frequently, and it would be possible to track a user in a call as you describe, but that's pretty obvious IMHO - you want to make a phone call, so something has to know roughly where you are.

      I don't dispute that the network knows where you are, but the average case has a lot lower resolution than you imply.

      --
      -- Mike
  4. Non-GPS-enabled phones... by hendridm · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Suddenly I wish I hadn't sold my old Nokia phones on eBay recently. They might have been worth much more in the next couple years when all phones come with GPS-tracking included. Of course, it wouldn't make much of a difference if providers require the feature in the future.

    1. Re:Non-GPS-enabled phones... by CoolGopher · · Score: 5, Informative

      While GPS certainly helps, it is by no means necessary in order to pinpoint the location of a mobile. As long as you are within coverage of at least three cells (less than that and you lose accuracy), it is perfectly possible to triangulate the position of the mobile terminal, regardless of what support there is or is not on the actual mobile itself.

      I say this with some authority, as I used to be working one floor above the guys developing the MPS (Mobile Positioning System) solution. That was, ummm, about four or five years ago. So no, this is nothing new... these aren't the droids you're looking for; move along.

    2. Re:Non-GPS-enabled phones... by infiniti99 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think GPS in phones is a great idea. Aside from the fact that it would make emergency calls much more efficient, it would be handy when using it with a PDA (you'd get both GPS and Network in one peripheral). Having a two-in-one would also simplify tracking-device projects. Don't you think it would be totally nerdy cool to be able to enter an AT command to your phone and get GPS coordinates, or throw it into a NMEA mode?

      The issue of providers tracking you is a completely separate problem. As long as the user remains in control (ie, I can choose to allow my phone to transmit GPS information to my provider or caller), then we're fine. Personally I'd have it always set to never allow another party to get my (x,y) unless I was using an emergency call. The rest of the time I'd be using the GPS capability with a local device for my own needs. We just need to ensure that phones don't go "DRM-style", where they are doing things against your will.

    3. Re:Non-GPS-enabled phones... by cicho · · Score: 4, Insightful

      >I think GPS in phones is a great idea.

      It may be a great idea if a mother is tracking her child. It's not such a great idea if a stalker is doing the same.

      --
      "Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
    4. Re:Non-GPS-enabled phones... by gilroy · · Score: 5, Informative
      Blockquoth the poster:

      it is perfectly possible to triangulate the position of the mobile terminal, regardless of what support there is or is not on the actual mobile itself.

      I think you've missed the point. Your boss or parent or boyfriend (or stalker) doesn't have the ability to triangulate on you -- it's not an easy thing. If the police do it, there'll be records, and it probably falls under wiretapping statutes. The issue here is: There are no legal guidelines for the ubiquitous surveilliance mentioned in the article.
    5. Re:Non-GPS-enabled phones... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sorry, but... Yes, it is an easy thing. Sitting at a suitable O&M terminal, you tell the system that you want to track this subscribers movements. It is one simple command. Then, there will be a log with timestamps and real-world coordinates for your enjoyment.

      The actual resolution can be as good as +- 1 yard.

      I've done this. I can do it again. Hey, I can even set up a script that will send me an SMS when my teenahe daughter gets too close to the wrong part of town!

    6. Re:Non-GPS-enabled phones... by Tassach · · Score: 3, Informative
      they can look at your home using an Infra Red Camera and thereby penetrate your property.
      Actually, in the US the Supreme Court says that the government can not use sense-enhancing technology (such as infrared cameras) to look into your home without a search warrant. The case is Kyllo vs. US. In the majority ruling, Justice Scalia wrote:
      We think that obtaining by sense-enhancing technology any information regarding the interior of the home that could not otherwise have been obtained without physical "intrusion into a constitutionally protected area" constitutes a search -- at least where (as here) the technology in question is not in general public use.
      By the Kyllo test, tracking via cell phone emissions MIGHT already be Constitutional, since (as the article states) the technology is in public use. However, since this feature is (currently) in LIMITED use, it's still somewhat of a grey area. It would probably take another Supreme Court ruling to establish exactly what percentage of the population has to use something before it's use is considered "general". Unless something is done to shut this service down NOW, before it gains widespread use, it will inevitably cross the line into "general" usage, further eroding the protection of your rights offered by the 4th Amendment.

      It's probably already too late. If you don't want Big Brother (or your parents, employer, or a deranged stalker) tracking your whereabouts 24/7, turn your damn cell phone off when you aren't making a call or expecting a call.

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
    7. Re:Non-GPS-enabled phones... by Tassach · · Score: 2, Informative
      phone tapping has only been legal for few years
      What country are you living in? Wiretapping has been legal for almost as long as there have been phones (at least in the US). It's only for the past 40 or so years that telephone conversations have had any Constitutional protection.

      The first Supreme Court ruling on wiretapping, Olmstead vs. US, was issued in 1928. The Olmstead ruling held that warrantless wiretapping was Constitutional, and that evidence gained thereby was admissable. The first limits on wiretapping came in 1934 when the Federal Communications act was passed, which prohibited private parties from tapping phone conversations unless one or more of the parties involved consented. While the two Nardonne v. US rulings (1937 and 1939) further limited the admissibility of evidence obtained via wiretap, the Olmstead ruling remained largely in effect until it was overturned by Katz v. US in 1967.

      --
      Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
  5. That's weird... by wrinkledshirt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    'A federal mandate that wireless carriers be able to locate callers who dial 911 automatically by late 2005 means that millions of phones already keep track of their owners' whereabouts.'

    Seems unnecessary... Wouldn't it be possible to just have the cell phone programmed to export the necessary coord data when someone hits 911?

    --

    --------
    Bleah! Heh heh heh... BLEAH BLEAH!!! Ha ha ha ha...

    1. Re:That's weird... by NeoMagick · · Score: 5, Informative

      GPS doesn't even need to come in to play. An analog phone from 1985 can give out positioning information with a little help from the service provider through triangulation. Newer cell phones, yes, use GPS systems for easier coordinate sending for 911/411 type services, it's just a cleaner system than using cell phone towers and relying on the wireless phone service providers to take the time to bounce the signal off at least three towers, get a fix, and relay it to the other end of the phone call. But it's all through the same process...GPS uses at least 3 satellites to do the same thing.

      My understanding at this point is digital phones are easier to track because they're always in communication with the towers, but older analog-only phones are only trackable when they're being used, because they can go passive. I may be mistaken on that.

  6. not new. by 1lus10n · · Score: 5, Insightful

    this service isnt really new, i bought my phone about a year ago (samsung a500, sprintpcs) and it had this feature. I disabled it, but i think that only turns off the ability for joe schmoe to track me, not the gov't.

    i personally see a good use for this (911) and dont see the big deal since you could just not carry your cell with you for that ultra-top-secret-underground tinfoil hat clan meeting.

    i am more worried about things you cannot opt out of, like face scanning in public places. or non-approval required phone taps etc ....

    --
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe." --Albert Einstein
    1. Re:not new. by GundyRage · · Score: 2, Troll

      The bottom line is that people need to realize that it just doesn't matter. 99.99% of us lead lives that are so boring that nobody cares where we are or what we are doing.

      G

    2. Re:not new. by cicho · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Okay, what if someone does care? What if *I* want to install a video camera in your bedroom? No mistake, you *are* boring, but I still want that camera there. I guess I have your permission?

      --
      "Only the small secrets need to be protected. The big ones are kept secret by public incredulity." - Marshall McLuhan
  7. many phones can disable this by toast0 · · Score: 3, Informative

    On the few phones I've seen with this feature, they have a menu to enable it all the time, or to only have it on for 911 calls.

    I think it's pretty easy for the phone to tell if you're dialing 911 or not, so when you turn it off, it probably means it's off.

    1. Re:many phones can disable this by hendridm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just keep telling yourself that. If it's enabled for 911, it's enabled period. All it takes is a warrant (OnStar anyone?) or a clever cracker/spammer.

    2. Re:many phones can disable this by LostCluster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So long as the high standards to get a warrant still exist, that's not a bad thing for the world to have. It's a whole lot cheaper for the taxpayer to grab somebody's cell phone records compared to the conventional police tail...

    3. Re:many phones can disable this by rokzy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      um, so "able to call regardless of credit" is enabled for 911/999, so "able to call regardless of credit" is enabled period?

      woot, FREE CALLS FOR EVERYONE!!!!11111

  8. Triangulation by cRueLio · · Score: 5, Insightful

    they have been able to do this for a long time by triangulating on your location from 3 or more different cells. Every criminal knows not to leave their cell phone on exactly for this reason.

    1. Re:Triangulation by robogun · · Score: 5, Informative

      Triangulation requires equipment located in several places and a certain amount of nontrivial effort.

      GPS allows one person to instantly pinpoint you to within two meters. Information this easily obtained is potentially valuable to abusers.

    2. Re:Triangulation by Graff · · Score: 3, Informative
      they only need two towers

      To pin someone down in 2 dimensions (that is, not considering height) you need 3 towers.

      Picture it this way:
      They know you are x distance from tower 1 so they draw a circle of x radius from tower 1.

      They also know that you are y distance from tower 2 so they draw a circle of y radius from tower 2.

      If you are along a line drawn directly between the two towers then the two circles will touch at one point. However, this is very unlikely. It is more likely that you are off to the side of a line connecting the two towers. In that case the two circles will touch in two places and they won't know which point you are at.

      Now if they know you are z distance from tower 3 they can draw a circle of x radius from tower 3.

      Within reason the 3 circles drawn will all touch at 1 point, that is where you are.

      If they want to know your height they would need at least 4 towers. Any towers beyond what they need will add to the accuracy of finding your exact location. It is common for triangulation to use 7 or 8 points in order to increase the accuracy.
    3. Re:Triangulation by Cebu · · Score: 5, Informative

      All cellular phones require base-stations to communicate with a telecommunications system. These base-stations are quite deliberately placed as to have contiguous coverage in a given region with a reasonable degree of overlap. The region in which a base-station can service a cellular phone is called a cell; hence the term cellular.

      When a cellular phone is in coverage, which is to say when you can actually use your phone to call 911 in the first place, there are usually at least three base-stations which your cellular phone can contact (though it only uses the strongest signal for obvious reasons).

      It is true that it takes non-trivial effort to implement triangulation based upon the signal strength of your cellular phone, but it also would take non-trivial effort to put a GPS solution onto a cellular phone. What is more important is which system is more precise, accurate, and reliable -- that would be GPS.

    4. Re:Triangulation by goranb · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's not completly true. Yes, you're right when using "normal" triangulation.
      With GSM base stations you also to consider the fact that a cell is divided into several sectors, which are nothing more than oriented antenas that face a certain direction. This means that in many cases you only need data from 2 base stations, because (as you mentioned) you get cross points for 2 circles, but you can discard one point as it doesn't lie in the sector my phone is in.
      This also means that often records from a single base station are enough to prove me lying. If you take a micro-cell for example (having a range of up to a kilometer, I think), you can actually see whether I was north of the cell, like I'm claiming, or that I was in fact to the south, where a crime was commited... :) (this goes for any kind of cell, but a micro-cell can cover very small areas (often even only buildings), making the pin-pointing accurate enough)

      Hope this makes any sense, I have to get some sleep... :)

    5. Re:Triangulation by SW6 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      It is true that it takes non-trivial effort to implement triangulation based upon the signal strength of your cellular phone[...]

      Well, yes, triangulating on the strength of the signal would be pretty tricky because the strength is not proportional to distance. So it's not done like that.

      GSM timing requirements are quite tight, and so the phone needs to know when to transmit to not clobber other calls on the cell. So there's a small amount of negotiation (effectively a ping) which tells them what the transmission delay is. Since we already know the speed of light, it's trivial to turn that delay into a distance.

    6. Re:Triangulation by technos · · Score: 2, Informative

      1. Cell phone towers use sector antennas, typically aroung 45 degrees.
      2. There is no distance data available.

      This gives them very good information on where you are with two towers. Plot the two sectors, you're somewhere in the overlap. Three towers gives them slightly better data, four only marginally better then three, and on and on. Moving, especially over a long period of time, gives them better data too.

      --
      .sig: Now legally binding!
  9. Offtopic but funny by Kethinov · · Score: 4, Funny
    New York Times (sacrifice of first born required)
    This just struck me as hillarious. Imagine a newbie to Slashdot reading that line and being like WTF?! because he'd never struggled through any previous articles where NYT registration fubar'd things.
    --
    You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
  10. Comment IDs by XanC · · Score: 3, Funny

    We're about to hit comment #7777777 (seven sevens). That's got to be lucky!

  11. google link for those without children to spare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Lost? Hiding? Your Cellphone Is Keeping Tabs

    On the train returning to Armonk, N.Y., from a recent shopping trip in Manhattan with her friends, Britney Lutz, 15, had the odd sensation that her father was watching her.....

  12. old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    'A federal mandate that wireless carriers be able to locate callers who dial 911 automatically by late 2005 means that millions of phones already keep track of their owners' whereabouts.'

    You've always been able to locate the position of a cell phone as it's making a call via triangulation with 2 towers. This is nothing new.

  13. part of "phase 2" 911 services by juventasone · · Score: 3, Informative
    I can't view the NYT article (my first born seems a little steep), but I found this, which is a year and half old:

    Phase II requires more precise location information be provided to the PSAP. Phase II requires the wireless service provider to provide the call back telephone number of the 9-1-1 caller, cell tower location, cell sector (antenna orientation) information, plus longitude and latitude (X, Y) information. Phase II E9-1-1 services exist today in a handful of locations, by a few wireless service providers, but these numbers will grow.

  14. Anyone know how to use it? by asscroft · · Score: 2, Informative

    My phone has it. I can turn it off or on within the phone software. It's a sprint PCS phone, made by Samsung. I don't know what good it is, unless maybe I die in the middle of the woods, which of course, would mean I'd be out of cell phone range anyway, but whatever. Is there a website somewhere where I can type in my number and pull up my cell phone on a little map? If so, I have only this to say:

    Here's to sweethearts and wives, may they never meet.

    --
    because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
  15. Re:Not good. by martinX · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Spouses should not have the ability to spy on one another either.

    Can now. It's called a private detective.

    Without guidelines, tracking very well might become widespread because it is forced down the throats of people who get their cell phones through their companies, schools, or otherwise don't pay their own bill.

    He who pays the piper calls the tune.

    --
    When they came for the communists, I said "He's next door. Take him away. Goddam commies."
  16. Hah, BUSTED! by molo · · Score: 4, Funny

    Jerold Surdahl, 40, an administrator in a building management office in Centerville, Ohio, said he started using the uLocate service to communicate with colleagues. Now, he is intrigued by the possibility of stashing a location-tracking phone in the trunk of his wife's car.

    "I'm not expecting or hoping or wanting to find something, but I would just like to explore the possibilities," Mr. Surdahl said. "I'd tell her about it later."


    Umm.. can you say BUSTED? Having your name and your intentions printed in the NYT pretty much ensures your secret is out.

    BTW, whats with all these controlling people? Relationships are about trust. If you can't trust someone to tell you where they were, then something more serious is wrong.

    -molo

    --
    Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    1. Re:Hah, BUSTED! by LostCluster · · Score: 3, Insightful

      On the other hand, what's wrong with telling employees that the phone reports back to a tracking map? When they're on company time their true location should not be a secret to their boss, so there really isn't too much of a privacy concern... only those who have something to hide should be worried. If they want to go somewhere secret on their off hours, leave the business phone at home...

  17. It's all described here... by redwoodtree · · Score: 4, Informative

    For the curious, it's all described on the uLocate FAQ.

    Only works with Nextel now and free until the end of the year.

    Another reason to hate Nextel for me. After having a boss that gave us all Nextels and having managers that would use the Instant-On feature to speak to us night and day (10:26pm Manager: "Hello, Hello, are you there?? The mail server seems to be a little slow, are you there?"), I will never consider Nextel again. I'm scarred for life!!

  18. Re:how does it work? by rock_climbing_guy · · Score: 2, Funny
    Look no further. I don't claim to be an expert on this, but my understanding is that they use a process called triangulation. The process is simple. They collect data from three different near-by cell phone towers. The data from the three towers is then compared to determine your location.

    I'd be sure to remove the battery if a I didn't want to be tracked. I wouldn't trust the on/off switch for one second. Personally, if I was going to a tin-foil hat clan meeting, I would leave the phone at home. I'd be paranoid that even with the battery removed, there might still be some tracking mechanism. I think that the recent story about the FBI being ordered by a court not to use a certain method of monitoring computers in cars because they interfered with the use of the machines by the users just goes to show how the FBI has an attitude that it is their absolute right to snoop on anything and everything and use anything possible for surveilance.

    /me dons tin-foil hat.

    --
    Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
  19. Re:Limited to base station accuracy only? by tsa · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here in Holland the police was able to find a woman who was kidnapped because of triangulation. Her phone company could give them the whole route the kidnapper took her to her hiding place. IAANAMCS (also not a mobile comms specialist) but IIRC a GSM phone chooses the strongest station from three stations that are close by, so the position of the phone can in principle be determined fairly accurately.

    --

    -- Cheers!

  20. Thought you might like to know by osamabenaffleck · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I work (outsourced) for a major telecom manufacturer that's been mentioned two times before in these responses. A majority of our phones as well as our competitions' have the ability to track a user. It's not GPS, it's triangulation. a spot between any three available towers can be pinpointed to within thiry feet. Works out great for e911 services, in the areas that can access them (most major metropolitan areas). Also, these services cannot be turned off. The location-based services can be interrupted on a limited basis so that advertisements and offers (coming soon through your telecom companies) will not reach your phone, but e911 will always have access. Interesting to think that the avarge user is starting to get access to these services, however. (Don't know if I want all my friends and relatives to be able to plot out a map of my whereabouts.) ...just food for thought....

  21. Old news [got this in Norway for years] by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We have been able to do this in Norway for a couple of years now, and everyone could track each other, if they are on the persons white-list. (That is, you could say who you would like to be tracked by)

  22. Cell Phoney Tracking by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am a Sheriff's dispatcher to a County of 1.5million people.

    Cell phone tracking is currently available, and will always be available even without GPS. As you travel your cell phone communicates to various cell phone towers along the path.

    Cell phone companies will provide Public Safety agencies with "tower" information and subscriber information for emergency situations. With the tower information, it will provide about a one mile radius to search if needed.

    GPS ability is available to some beta site dispatch centers. Cell phone/GPS information is provided when 911 is dialed. Landline 911 will provide location, phone number(s) and subscriber information. Very important info for responding agencies.

    GPS ability is very important to Public Safety agencies. I lost count of the number of times "we" were unable to find a cell phone caller. 911 cell phone callers often have a dificult time giving their location, especially in unfamilar areas. I've taken calls where the caller is in a trapped in a ditch or injured in the middle of nowhere. I have also taken calls where a victim or injured person has called and for one reason or another is unable to give the location. Dead battery, poor reception site, lost consciousness etc.

    Put yourself or a loved one in that scenerio and think about it. You have to think of the worst case scenerio, it happens daily.

    I leave my GPS data on all the time, never knowing when I myself will be involved in an emergency.

    I have nothing to hide, and couldn't care less if anybody new where I was located. With hundreds of cell phones being used in any one region, the thought of somebody caring about your location is quite unrealistic.

    The whole basis of the GPS cell phone data is in the interest of public safety. To assist you when you need it most.

    I'd be more afraid of criminals my personal data for identity theft.

    Each credit card/atm/club card transaction is telling somebody where you are and what you are purchasing. Nobody seems to be bothered with that.

    I don't have an account, not because i'm a coward. I just have the desire to post here often. I'm also paranoid that somebody is going to steal my personal information.

    -Ant-

    1. Re:Cell Phoney Tracking by tacocat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I generally agree with your statements, except for two areas of American Society which gives me the screaming willies.

      The first, and most apparent to anyone conscious today, it the potential use, mis-use, and outright abuse that something like this will have under the honarable practice of Marketing. Ever seen Minority Report? The scenes where they tracked advertisements based on the people looking at them freaked me out.

      With GPS, as with the recently announced plans for radio signal tracking, they can start gathering demographics on people who are driving past a give billboard and modify the advertisement content to match your assigned pidgeon hole.

      Now, even more of the ads you see are directed to you based on someone elses assumptions. Kind of like have a 1x1 pixel following you everywhere you go.

      I just realized how fundamentally fucked up this really is. Because all of my advertisement exposure is focused on narrow beam that's all about me, or an assumption thereof, I will be severely restricted on seeing anything that isn't "all about me".

      What this leads to is a complete unfamiliarity with anything that isn't about me. This results in an increased Social Intolerance that everyone claims to be so precious to our Melting Pot Society. Hand it to Marketing to practically endorse segregation, but not limited to a Skin-Color level of segregation.

      The second aspect of this that is scarey but not as tangible is the rampant abuse we are already forcing upon anyone The Administration wants to label as a Terrorist, Enemy of the State, or Enemy Combatant. Once labeled, you may never get out from under it. I'm pretty certain that this is how McCarthyism got started in the 1950's.

      While this may sound far fetched, dramatic, and theatrical, you should probably ask yourself the question, "What exists in our Government which is going to effectively prevent this from happening??

    2. Re:Cell Phoney Tracking by Chelloveck · · Score: 4, Interesting
      The whole basis of the GPS cell phone data is in the interest of public safety. To assist you when you need it most.

      While I agree with most of your post, I have to disagree with this line. That is the promoted use of it, and is quite a good use. However, there's a not-so-well hidden agenda of advertising. When I got my new phone, Verizon was specifically saying that they have plans to use the system to provide "location-based services". That is, based on your location they will send advertisements and instant coupons for nearby businesses.

      "John Anderton, you could use a Guinness right now."

      Emergency services are also provided, as a way to convince people we need this. You want to be safe don't you? Fortunately, my phone (and many other models, I'm sure) give me the option to transmit the aGPS data with every call or just with calls to 911. This is something I can live with. The service is there when I have a real emergency, but (unless the phone is lying to me) that information isn't available to advertisers.

      Someone in another thread said that the location system doesn't really use GPS. That's not quite true. The cellphone "Assisted GPS" service does use the GPS satellite system, but doesn't need a full GPS receiver in the phone itself. It also uses data from the tower. The IEEE magazine "Computer" had a good summary of the technology. A PDF of the article is at http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~postPC/docs/Geolocation_ assistedGPS.pdf

      --
      Chelloveck
      I give up on debugging. From now on, SIGSEGV is a feature.
    3. Re:Cell Phoney Tracking by Sinical · · Score: 5, Interesting

      With hundreds of cell phones being used in any one region, the thought of somebody caring about your location is quite unrealistic.

      If only. Listen, some people have creepily possessive boyfriends and/or girlfriends. Some people have invasive bosses or paranoid spouses. Some people just want to make phonecalls and would otherwise prefer to just be left the hell alone.

      This "nothing to hide" thing is very damn tiring, too. Wait until the next terrorist attack, when suddenly cell phone location information becomes mandatory and perhaps more accurate via differential GPS or what have you.

      Now you have a system that monitors everywhere you are every moment of the day (that you are with your cell phone). I'm sure the government would never be motivated to purchase this kind of information (as the FBI, etc. already buy databases that they aren't allowed to collect themselves from various companies), and that there would never be abuse or misuse. To me, this system is the very definition of a modern panopticon.

      We already live in a world of near-constant scrutiny via cameras, and yet everyone seems comfortable in their fishbowls. It's frightening.

      The whole basis of the GPS cell phone data is in the interest of public safety. To assist you when you need it most.

      Perhaps it is now. But you know sooner or later (sooner, I'm guessing) it will be turned into another tool for investigation. They'll simply find out every person X who's been near location Y where something interesting has occured, then probe into their lives for behavior that they find suspicious (via information purchased from companies, above), and then hassle the shit out of those they find interesting, occasionally making a spectacular enough bust to quiet the fears of the bovine populance as they live under the all-seeing eye of the tyrannical Computer.

      'Moo,' they'll say as they trundle off to McDonald's(tm) for a supersize fry in their Ford Excursions, 'boy it sure is good that they caught that guy stealing change from the Coke(tm) machine.' Because of course, the level of crime necessary to trigger the use of the system is lowered and lowered as people become more and more desensitized. And the radius of your life where you're allowed to make decisions is shrinking, shrinking, gone. Who will chance anything, will live the uncircumscribed life, when that will risk the Law's piercing gaze? Only the insane, as they will be classified, the suspicious. And *those* poor fools will never be allowed a security clearance or a position of prominence. What are they hiding, that they won't keep their Big Brother wrist watch on all the time? I say bring them in for questioning every couple of weeks, right? Maybe keep them under watch (har! punny!). You see, the absence of this tool will become sufficient for suspicion in a cruel, yet ironic twist of fate.

      I'll trade safety for privacy any damn day of the week. I'll trade that off-chance of laying in a ditch somewhere unable to activate my emergency location system to the constant gaze of the Machine. It's like some LOTR where everyone *wants* Sauron's eye to always be on them, a warm, comforting presence in a hard land. All of them: pussies.

      Thus endeth the rant.

    4. Re:Cell Phoney Tracking by sacrilicious · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I have nothing to hide, and couldn't care less if anybody new where I was located. With hundreds of cell phones being used in any one region, the thought of somebody caring about your location is quite unrealistic.

      #1: caring whether people know where you are does not mean you have something to hide.

      #2: having something to hide does not mean people should be entitled to know about it.

      #3: the number of cellphones being used in a given area has very little to do with the likelihood that someone will care where you are. It has much more to do with who knows that you're carrying a lot of cash, or who thinks that you have too much freedom in your relationship and need to be reigned in via generic oversight.

      --
      - First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then ???, then profit.
  23. That argument's not new either by fm6 · · Score: 5, Insightful
    As so many people do, you've assumed that you have to be up to something illicit to care about privacy. Simply not true. Here's an not unlikely example: You say to your boss, "I need the afternoon off. Gotta take my kid to the doctor." "Sure!" your boss says, then runs back to his office and order a location trace on your cell. It turns out the address you go to is for a specialist in childhood leukemia. "Christ!" your boss says, "Our insurance costs are through the roof already! If this kid needs a bone marrow transplant, forget about any end of the year bonus! Better downsize this guy, stat!"

    Of course this technology has legitimate uses. If you'd bothered to read the article, you would have noticed that the privacy advocates were not objecting to the technology itself, but to the absence of control over who gets access to the data.

  24. GPS antenna? by retro128 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I haven't really been up to date on the latest cell tech, but maybe a few of you who are can address what I'm wondering about -

    The signal from the GPS satellites is pretty weak...How does the cell phone reliably get its coordinates? Most of the handheld GPS units I have used will lose GPS lock if you have it in the car, in buildings or even under trees because of the line-of-sight obstruction. If you require E911 service, the chances are pretty good you will be in a location that doesn't get very hot GPS reception. Is there some kind of secondary location service?

    Antennas must be tuned for optimum reception of a signal, which means that in a GPS enabled cell phone there is probably two antennas - one for GPS and one for cell service. Can anyone confirm that theory? It could theoretically use the same antenna for both GPS and cell service, but either way if you wanted to disable it you could cut the trace that carries the signal to the GPS controller.

    But if you do this, how legal would that be?

    --
    -R
  25. Phew, good thing I have AT&T! by mrblah · · Score: 2, Funny

    Good thing I have AT&T! I get so little coverage I bet they have no idea where I'm at.

  26. You know, there is another option.... by finkployd · · Score: 4, Interesting

    To everyone who is freaking out that this will be a new way to for The Man (or government, employer, spouse, whatever) to track your every movement, I have a radical new idea:

    Don't carry the cell phone

    This may never have occurred to you, but if you are doing something or going somewhere and do not want to be tracked, you actually have the option of not carrying the cell phone with you. Now I know what you are thinking, but yes, your pants will stay up without the cell phone holster connected to your belt. Try it in the safety of your own home if you do not believe me. And legend has it our ancestors traveled across the country side without cell phones back in the olden days.

    Or for a less radical option, just turn it off. If you still do not believe it is really off and could still be tracking you, take the battery out.

    Finkployd

    1. Re:You know, there is another option.... by Daniel+Boisvert · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Aren't cars Faraday cages?

      No.

      Okay...well, kinda. :)

      In the real world, there really isn't a generic "Faraday Cage" that magically prevents all radio waves from entering or leaving. A Faraday cage is specific to the particular frequencies it's designed to shield against (although a simple fully-enclosed metal box shields most of 'em up to a very high frequency).

      The simplified version of the story is that in order for something to be a functional Faraday cage, it must be a conductive shield, yada-yada, and mustn't have any openings large enough for the radio wave to fit through. Lower frequencies are "larger" than higher frequencies, so if you only want to block low frequencies, a large-ish wire mesh would be sufficient to create a Faraday cage for your purposes. As the frequencies you wish to shield increase, the wire mesh size would decrease, until eventually you hit the range where those radio waves are called light, and you'd want something pretty-darned-near a solid sheet of metal to block them.

      Your car has some very large gaps in its protection, commonly referred to as "windows", which are sufficiently large to let in darned near any wave that's useful for personal communications.

      Hopefully this gives you the proverbial tip of the iceberg; your local ham radio geeks can likely explain this to you at a level of detail much beyond what I've done here, and likely also much beyond the level you care to understand. :)

      Dan

  27. yeah but... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    What if you're that person that everyone talks about when you're not around? I've found out because people tell me about these conversations.

    What if you're that hot girl that everyone wants to meet, and you despise all those creepy geeks? All of a sudden you keep bumping into the same stalkers, at every club you go to, at every store you visit. Everytime you step out of the house?

    Cool, so don't carry your cell-phone with you. Great solution, now that they've eliminated most public pay-phones. You too can live in a communications-free world. Hello? It's like stepping back in time a 100 years. It's particularly disabling when your car breaks down, and nobody will stop to help you - and there's no phone around to call for help. It's a problem when people *expect* to be able to reach you at anytime - you become a social pariah.

    Time for a new solution. We just need to out-innovate these stupid restrictions.

    -- Ender, Duke_of_URL

  28. GPS good, triangulation BAD by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For privacy freaks this is old, old news. It is also one of things that give us freaks bad dreams and sleepless nights. The 911 justification has all the ear-marks of that tried-and-true privacy buster maxim - "If it will save the life of just one child, it will all be worth it!"

    BUT, after cogitating on it for a few years now, I think that the decision to go with GPS has a lot of benefits for us freaks (and the criminals out there too). Since the trend is towards embedded GPS in cell phones, it is likely that all the typical anti-privacy black hats will build their uber-spying systems on the back of assuming the GPS data is valid. It does not have to be.

    In fact, I envision a GPS "relocator" device becoming somewhat popular in the same stores that sell mini-spy cams, electronic bugs and electronic bug detectors. Just attach your relocator to your phone and it will overpower the signals from the GPS birds with its own false signals and convince the phone that it is really somewhere else. Similarly, I would expect to see software only hacks to future phones to do the same thing. As long as the dark powers that be are too lazy to cross reference the phone's own reported GPS location with the actual cell towers in use (and you know that such laziness *will* prevail it is government agencies we are talking about) then those people who want to appear as if they are somewhere else can do so easily. Thus invalidating much of the benefits (beyond the stupid 911 misdirection) to Big Brother and helping to maintain the privacy of the common man (and all those criminals the Feds thought they were going to be able to use this scheme against).

    Hey, just because you wear a tinfoil hat doesn't mean you can't see the brighter side.

    --
    When information is power, privacy is freedom.
  29. It will be abused somewhere down the line. by MacFury · · Score: 4, Insightful
    However, I cannot see how it will affect the average person on the street. I doubt the government will be keeping tabs on individuals. It seems as insidious as store loyalty cards.

    The point is, they could. If they don't have the tools to do so, then they definately can't. This gives the government a easy tool to track people, especially as cell phone use becomes more and more widespread (as if it isn't already.)

    While someone may not be sitting there tracking every movement, it would be feasible to assume that all your data gets dumped into a database for later use. We already store incoming and outgoing calls, why not locations?

    Let's say a robbery took place at a store. You were on the other side of the building and didn't see it. However, the resolution of the GPS wasn't good enough to pinpoint which side of the building you were on, only that you were in proximity. The police come knocking on your door, and now your a suspect.

    I go to public parks often to sit and read. I have no kids. I don't want some stupid computer program to assume I have no reason to be there, flagging me as a pedophile because I happen to read on kids playgrounds.

  30. High standards? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Umm, what fantasy world are you living in?

    They've used OnStar to eavesdrop on people. The only reason that go shut down is because the person couldn't use OnStar to call for help - which will be solvable by the cops by promising to forward any such requests immediately to the OnStar system.

    In '93 they were wiretapping all public phones in 'bad' areas in my town. I don't think they even bothered to get a warrant, which is why it made the papers.

    Feds have *never* turned down an application for a warrant to themselves in Patriot related matters - which is not solely related to 'terrorist' activity - even when terrorist activity was rather loosely defined. They're now using it for domestic crimes.

    The federal DB of records on every citizen is moving forward, all boat registration, car registration, credit records, etc.

    Yeah: "Trust us, we're from the Gubbmint", sure, sure - as long as high standards are used, it shouldn't be a problem. As long as people follow the law, you should have no hackers attacking your computer systems, no viruses will be written, and all code won't cause catastrophic failure on your machines, or data corruption.

    Must be nice to live in fantasy land.

    -- Ender, Duke_of_URL

  31. GOOD! by Feztaa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When you call 911 on a cell phone, chances are good that a) you will be in a poorly-defined location (ie, "I'm underneath the tire of a car!"), and b) you will need a speedy response. Why must you be forced to describe your location well enough for police to find you, instead of simply lettimg them track your phone and show up to where you called?

    Calling 911 implies it's an emergency, you need the police NOW.

  32. This doesn't bode well by ortholattice · · Score: 5, Insightful
    More and more parents are going to be pressured into keeping 24 hour tabs on their teenagers, due to fear of lawsuits if their kids get in trouble as well as fear due to media-hyped crime stories. I see this as a bad thing. Kids will grow up used to constant 24 hour surveillance, fully prepared to become zombies in the Big Brother society of the future where their every movement will be tracked.

    I'm sorry, but an important part of growing up is getting at least a taste of true freedom and yes, sometimes the risk that it entails. . When I was a teenager I probably did a few things my parents wouldn't have approved of, and I that was an important part of my experience.

    I can't imagine imposing this on my own teenager, except (1) when he actively wants it, if say he goes into a strange part of town, or (2) as punishment if he gets into trouble - part of the punishment might be that he would be monitored for the next two months or whatever. If he wants to be monitored all the time,

  33. More Tools For Bad Parents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I do feel kinda bad for these 16-year-old kids getting tracked by their parents. I mean, it's one thing for adults living in a democracy to have debates about privacy & technology, etc.-- that's all good-- but these kids don't have any say in the matter... which is too bad, because there are some legitimate arguments on their side.

    As an adult, if someone were tracking me at least I would have some legal recourse. But what do you do when its your parents? Sue them? I guess that's been tried before too...

  34. tin hat by the+uNF+cola · · Score: 2, Funny

    Time to make a mini hat for my cell phone..

    (if I had one -- a phone that is)

    --

    --
    "I'm not bright. Big words confuse me. But Wanda loves me and that should be enough for you." - Cosmo

  35. Ohh Great by logicnazi · · Score: 2, Insightful

    So we can get evil spying technology but we still don't get GPS capability with our new cell phones. Fucking wonderful.

    So I just got a new treo 600 and like all new cell phones it has e911. This means it has a GPS reciever and all that shit in it, however, like most new cell phones it lacks the code or chip to do the GPS processing. If you can now get commercial spying services why the hell can't they enable a GPS service without an expansion card.

    Seriously though this is a somewhat worrying trend. Not so much because of the lose of privacy, although that isn't good but because of the *differential* loss in privacy. I think it was David Brin who commented that this was the real problem and while I don't know his reasons I agree with him. If corporate execs were as likely to have their minor transgressions traced as teenagers we would learn to forgive these transgression that have happened since the begining of time. As it is we will once again blame it on the moral failings of the youth.

    Ironically it seems that it is our concern for privacy that will cause the problems. We will only let surveilance happen in certain specialized areas, those areas that "morally good upright" citizens won't be in. It will be okay to surveill only those people who regularly come within some many feet of a known drug hangout...but not a buisnessman who buys his coke from a friend at work.

    --

    If you liked this thought maybe you would find my blog nice too:

  36. Key Passages from the Article by Crypto+Gnome · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But privacy advocates say the lack of legal clarity about who can gain access to location information poses a serious risk.

    Unfortunately technologies get deployed LONG before appropriate legislation get enacted. Governments are often like Dionsaurs living in the age of Mammals (ie they're just not built to react quickly to change).

    "We are moving into a world where your location is going to be known at all times by some electronic device," said Larry Smarr, director of the California Institute for Telecommunications and Information Technology. "It's inevitable. So we should be talking about its consequences before it's too late."

    Unfortunately, most people subscribe to the DKDC model of living. (Don't know, don't care) And it's often left to a vocal (and knowledgable) minority who end up being painted as "the lunatic fringe" by the mass media.

    Advocates of location-aware technology insist that its safety benefits -- like locating a 911 caller or a stolen car -- outweigh the privacy issues.

    The technology itself is not the issue (the technology is NEVER the issue), the issue is who has access and under what conditions. They're completely missing the point - why can we not have a situation where the privacy and the technology play together nicely in the sandpit?

    --
    Visit CryptoGnome in his home.
  37. poor parenting and false security by tuxette · · Score: 2, Informative
    We've already had similar debates about GPS-tracking via cellphone in Norway, and Finland, Japan, and other countries have had the same. I even included some stuff about it in a hearing presentation on ICT and Privacy I gave a few weeks ago; it's in Norwegian but if people are interested in reading it, beg me via my journal or something.

    Anyways, back to the topic at hand. While the original "Find Friend" type services are generally harmless as long as the involved parties consent, and while similar use for real safety issues (i.e. firefighters on duty) is also generally harmless, further use of these services for other purposes than finding your mates in a discoteque queue or finding firefighters is obviously disturbing from a privacy standpoint.

    It's unfortunate to see that these cellphones make parents think that they will make their kids tell the truth, etc. At the same time, it's unfortunate that the presumption of trust and goodwill is taken away from these children; children learn that they can't be trusted before they may or may not have done anything.

    It's also unfortunate that parents are led to believe that if they think their kid is in danger, all they have to do is push a button and see where the kid is positioned and voila! Kid is found. It's not that simple. This quote was disturbing: Jason Pratt said there were advantages to being watched. He no longer has to call his mother to let her know where he is. Instead, she can press a "locate" button on her phone and see for herself. Not only do these devices break down communication between parents and children, communication which is necessary to provide good, trusting relationships, it gives a false sense of security. Jason could be mugged, his phone taken away from him. If he had told mommy where he was and where he was going, it would be easier to find Jason than chasing the cellphone which the mugger probably tossed into a trash bin some random location.

    More than ever, technological devices are replacing good old fashioned parenting. OK, I don't have brats myself, but I used to be one. I was taught good common sense things like don't talk to strangers, call if we're going to be late home (and don't be afraid to call collect), stick to known streets and paths, be aware of your surroundings, etc. I never thought it was so diffucult to stick to. I did OK and so have a lot of other children from "my generation" (no, I'm not that old). Has society become so much worse today that kids have to be put under surveillance? Why don't good old fashioned rules work anymore?

    If you have a kid that wanders away from "approved" areas or lies about which train she may have taken, then you have a problem that goes beyond what surveillance devices can solve. Somewhere, you f-ed up as a parent.

    Another issue is the fantasy that these devices could be used to find kidnapped/missing kids. Problem #1 - most kidnappings are done by family members, not strangers. Technology may find the kid, but it doesn't resolve the real issue. Problem #2 - even if the kidnapping was at the hands of a stranger, the stranger (and even the family member) could throw away or destroy the GPS device.

    Another thing is that children may be present in the "safety zone" or whatever you want to call it; parents check up on their kids and since they're in an area that is "OK" they let it be. Well, a kid may be in the "safety zone" but locked up in the pedophile neighbor's garage. So much good the cellphone has done!

    Yet another issue is that this teaches children to accept surveillance, whether willingly or unwillingly. To go even further, "good kids think that surveillance is good." "If you don't accept us watching over you, then you're a criminal with something to hide." Again, this takes away the presumption of innocence, and children learn that their parents don't trust them from day one. What kind of society becomes created when nobody trusts the other?

    --
    People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
  38. Location info is actually logged for years by Gnavpot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Several messages here have covered the topic of persons/authorities beeing able to spot your current location.

    Actually, it goes much farther. I dont' know about other countries, but here in Denmark, your location can not only be found but is actually continuously logged by the phone companys "for accounting purposes".

    I know at least two criminal trials were these logs have been used by the prosecutor to prove that the accused was at a given location several months or even a year earlier.

    1. Re:Location info is actually logged for years by tuxette · · Score: 2, Interesting
      This information is also logged in Norway, and is supposed to be used for "accounting purposes" but may be used by the police in certain situations; the police have to get a court order in order to get the information in the logs. Logs are kept for either 3 months or 5 months, depending on the subscriber's billing setup.

      Since you can read Scandinavian, this may be of interest to you. A lot of discussion on what to do with these logs...

      --
      People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
  39. Hmm.. by Ligur · · Score: 4, Funny

    We should make cell phones really small.. kinda triangular shaped.. and pin them to our chest! We can have a speakerphone system and voice recognition, you can just tap it and speak!

    And now people can go "Computer, locate Liutenant Worf."

    Err.

    --
    Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast.
  40. Remember that little place called Europe? by coofercat · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's true, Europe generally trails the US in all things stupid, but in one respect we're showing you how dangerous life can be:

    http://www.mapamobile.com/

    "mapAmobile is a service which can give you the peace of mind of knowing where your children, loved ones or colleagues are at any time, without intruding on their day to day activity. It uses the mobile phone network to locate a mobile phone anywhere in the UK. You can access this information from this website, via text message, via WAP or by making a simple phone call."

  41. Tracking your cell phone. by srslif16 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I work in the telecom industry. I have been doing so for quite som time. Back in 1999, we did system test on locating in GSM. At that time, locating was based on using several measurements:
    + signal strengths measured at two or more towers,
    + the so-called timing advance measurements,
    + measurements done over several frequencies (GSM uses frequency hopping).
    Usually, in urban areas, we'd get the location within 10 meters. In rural areas, it was more like 100 meter. It was a bit of a hassle to order the system to start the tracking, and there was no nice user interface for the resulting trace data. We made a few hacks to make our lives easier. Some of those hacks still lives... Today, the radio base stations comes with the option of a built-in GPS. That makes the position of the base statio very well known (that was a problem back in 1999). You can still use the measurement reports from the cell-phone to get the current location (cell-phones have to make measurement reports, or they won't work in the system). You don't need to have GPS capability in the cell-phone. But if you do, and it reports coordinates that doesn't agree with known data frpm the base stations, the cell-phones data will be ignored, and real measurements will be used. The user interfaces of today are mcu better. Using the IMSI (International Mobile Subscriber Identity) or even the equipment identity number, you can order the system to log all movements of the cell-phone. The only way to avoid this, is to keep the battery out of the cell-phone, and only put it in when you need the service.

  42. TWIT... Forget tracking, hackers can listen in! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    If you have secrets, ANY secrets, especially BUSINESS secrets, under NO circumstances mention anything over the telephone!

    http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit2003071 0. html

    "The typical CALEA installation on a Siemens ESWD or a Lucent 5E or a Nortel DMS 500 runs on a Sun workstation sitting in the machine room down at the phone company. The workstation is password protected, but it typically doesn't run Secure Solaris. It often does not lie behind a firewall. Heck, it usually doesn't even lie behind a door. It has a direct connection to the Internet because, believe it or not, that is how the wiretap data is collected and transmitted. And by just about any measure, that workstation doesn't meet federal standards for evidence integrity.

    And it can be hacked.

    And it has been.

    Israeli companies, spies, and gangsters have hacked CALEA for fun and profit, as have the Russians and probably others, too. They have used our own system of electronic wiretaps to wiretap US, because you see that's the problem: CALEA works for anyone who knows how to run it."

    1. Re:TWIT... Forget tracking, hackers can listen in! by HairyCanary · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm curious where that information came from. For a typical 5ESS installation, in my experience the Solaris box connected to it is 1) behind the same locked door as the switch itself, and 2) not connected to the 'net. Maybe the CLEC that I work for is just more secure than other telecom companies.

  43. This is nothing... by mosburger · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...here's another dirty little secret of the wireless industry: many phones have the ability to enable the microphone without the owner of the phone even knowing it. I only recently heard about this, and I can't vouch for how valid it is (I don't have much intimate knowledge about how cell handsets work), but even if it isn't true today, it's interesting to consider the possibility that cell phone users are carrying 'bugs' around with them 24/7...

  44. Ingenious use of Cell phone technology by copper22 · · Score: 3, Funny

    Instead of paying for LoJack for my new car, I'll just sign up for the family plan and leave a cheap Nokia in the trunk.

  45. Rape button by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting
    It seems to me that every GPS phone should have a rape button... push it, and it silently goes into alert mode, telling the police where a woman is, that she's in danger for her life, and that she can't actually phone them.

    You'd have to be liable for the charges if you abused the system, and the "button" would really have to be something like a pull-out slip so i would be both permanent and hard to set off by accident, but imagine what a help it would be.

    1. Re:Rape button by xenoandroid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How bout just a panic button? You make it seem like only women can be victims and rape is the only situation in which that kind of emergency response might be needed.

    2. Re:Rape button by Jetson · · Score: 4, Informative
      It seems to me that every GPS phone should have a rape button.

      Many phones will automatically dial 9-1-1 and transmit your GPS location (if so equipped) if you simply hold down on the '9' button for a five seconds or more. This will generally work even if you don't have a contract for cell service and can't place or receive normal calls.

    3. Re:Rape button by Minkey+Brines · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No, no, no... The phones should have a "Fire" button. If it was a rape button, nobody would come help her.

    4. Re:Rape button by Minkey+Brines · · Score: 2, Funny

      Freaking pervert... I've gotten mad at my phone, but I never wanted to rape it...

  46. How it works for 911 by Lochert · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is in daily use at 911 centrals, at least here in Scandinavia. Whenever someone calls 911 (or our local version of it) a trace is automatically performed and the operator can see the approximate position of the caller on the map. This actually works with information from just one base station. The directional antennas will know the sector of the caller and the signal strength is used to calculate the approximate distance. The area in which the caller is positioned is highlighted on the map. No GPS, no triangulation, just one single base station. And no, the police does not have access to the same information, at least not here in Norway. Maintaining this application is part of my current assignment so I do have some first hand experience... -Allan

    1. Re:How it works for 911 by t_allardyce · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It makes you wonder why the US government mandated GPS. It adds to the cost of the phone and it could have been done other ways - like yours. Maybe one of the GPS hardware companies donated some money to *cough* get the law passed.

      --
      This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  47. To block the signals... by Psx29 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Whats a good material to block cellular/gps signals? I think that making cellphone holders that can block the signals would be a great product to sell....

  48. Options... by mercuryresearch · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For what it's worth, many years ago when I crossed paths with some cell-phone product design types, there was a hybrid product concieved, originally to improve service and battery life -- a pager/cell phone. (We're not talking SMS here, but plain old POCSAG paging.)

    Anyway, with this approach you could work if you wished to retain positional anonymity -- have a conventional pager (which is just a reciever) notify you of calls, then choose to power up the cell or not.

    As practically every other post has pointed out, positioning by radio has no requirement of GPS being present. Any transmitter can be position located. Amateur radio opertators actually have contests to do this -- foxhunts -- and the equipment to do position finding of non-spread-spectrum tranmitters is pretty trivial to make or buy.

    If you want your whereabouts to remain unknown, don't transmit. Simple as that.

  49. 'Do or Die' Service by Flamesplash · · Score: 2, Funny

    Phone companies should just make it optional to use 911 with tracking or no 911 at all, they can market it as the 'Do or Die' service.

    --
    "Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
  50. They get MUCH closer than that. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2, Informative

    The description above is OK as far as it goes. But radiolocation by cellphone is MUCH more accurate than that, because it uses an extra piece of information.

    In addition to signal strength (which varies not just with distance but with transmission path artifacts, like trees and moisture), digital cellphone base stations keep track of out-and-back signal turnaround time - to an extremely fine granularity. They do this to assign timeslots for the phone-to-tower signals, to make maximum use of the channel.

    Assuming the strongest path is the line-of-sight path (rather than, say, a bounce off a building), this gives them the distance to the phone, within a few feet. (This assumption is usually true.)

    The geometry is the same. But with the distance information added, each tower can put the phone on a sphere of a particular radius around the tower. Assuming the phone is on or near roughly flat ground (not in an aircraft or climing a steep mountain - also usually true), that becomes a circle where it intersects the ground, with an uncertainty stripe width of a few feet.

    Add a second tower and you get two intersecting circles - and two lozenge-shaped patches where they intersect. A third cell tower can tell you whitch patch (and shrink it further by cutting off the long ends).

    The advantage of adding a GPS to the phone is that you only need a SINGLE cell tower to interrogate the GPS in order to locate the user to GPS acuracy. This is handy for trouble calls where only one or two cells can reach the phone, so you don't have to dispatch two ambulances (for two cells) or a search plane (for one).

    The distance information is available any time the phone is on. When it's switched on, switched off, and about every five minutes in between, it checkes in with the cell system. (Get one of those "cell-phone jewels", a blinky antenna, or a battery pack with a blinks-when-transmitting gadget to see when. Or just lay the antenna on a cheap transistor radio tuned to a quiet spot and listen to the pops and buzzes.) This is to update the system's database so it knows where to send incoming calls. But it also updates the distance information necessary to locate the phone within a few feet.

    This information has been available to law enforcement for a while.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  51. Jam it by WilsDad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It seems like it would be pretty easy to jam the GPS signal with a little gadget that sat right next to the phone. This only solves half the problem. You could still be tracked by the towers, but might sell well to the paranoid crowd. Open source hardware anyone? uPower 1575.42 transmitter

  52. No, that would be distance-based "triangulation". by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 5, Informative

    It is true that it takes non-trivial effort to implement triangulation based upon the signal strength of your cellular phone, but it also would take non-trivial effort to put a GPS solution onto a cellular phone. What is more important is which system is more precise, accurate, and reliable -- that would be GPS.

    No, that would probably be the cell-based system.

    It's not really "triangulation". Triangulation uses the observed DIRECTION of the signal, locating the transmitter on a (hopefully) narrow fan based at the reciever. Two receivers locate the transmitter where the "beams" intersect, and the "beams" plus the baseline between the receivers form a triangle.

    This system uses the round-trip transit time, much like radar, to locate the transmitter on a circle around each "receiver" (actually an active transciever), putting the transmitter where the circles intersect. (You still get the triangle of the locations. But it's a different system than "triangulation".)

    You can also locate the transmitter if all, or all-but-one, of the receivers is passive, but they can compare notes on signal arrival time.

    If all are passive, two receivers locate the transmitter on a hyperbola, three narrow it to two intersecting hyperbolas, four pin it (or three if one or more can distinguish the two intersections by antenna sectoring).

    If one "receiver" is active, it locates the transmitter on a circle, the second adds a hyperbola intersecting the circle at two points, the third (or sector antennas) adds another hyperbola that intersects differently with the circle to distinguish the points. (This is much like LORAN.)

    The accuracy depends on the angles, the accuracy of the arrival-time measurements, and the accuracy of the knowlege of the locations of the base stations. Ground-based systems have an advantage in the angles (being roughly in a plain with the transmitter). They also have better knowlege of antenna location than orbiting satellites. Both have comparable time bases (based on atomic-clock-referenced Stratum-III clocks in the cell base stations and atomic clocks in the satellites). GPS was optimized for location tracking so it MAY measure the signal arrival time more accurately. But that's a "maybe", since the base stations need it accurate, too, and can throw more electronics at the problem than the portable GPS receiver. (Anybody have the real stats?)

    Now that selective availability is turned off GPS MIGHT be as accurate as cell systems. But it's still fighting some handicaps, so I'd be surprised if it's better.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  53. Re: Turning cellphones off by some+guy+I+know · · Score: 3, Funny
    This will cause people to walk around with their cellphones powered down (I know I would) and only activate it for making a call.
    If people would turn their cellphones off because they don't want anyone to know that they are at the movies or in a restaraunt, then I'm all for it.
    --
    Those who sacrifice security to condemn liberty deserve to repeat history or something. - Benjamin Santayana
  54. Re:This just in... Well, in for a while now... by TygerFish · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Okay, when I originally got my sprintpcs-capable phone, a Sanyo 4900, I read up on the location feature and it essentially told you that if you turned it off, the only ones who would have access to your location info would be the police. I didn't like the way it sounded, and between the bad ears and Big Brother, it went back to The Shack inside a day.

    I later bought the same phone again and decided to use a headset for the hearing problem.

    The real problem with the technology is not that the cops can track you. As far as I know, they have *always* had that ability: the machinery knows that the signal from your phone is strongest between n points on the network and if you make a call, your approximate location is knowable by the system in realtime.

    Another problem, of course, are what they keep mentioning on 'Law and Order,' your LUDs or 'Local Usage Details.' It's a record of everyone you call and everyone who calls you.

    Big hint, before calling anyone for a criminal transaction from your own cell phone, try on some bright-orange clothing and make sure you look good in it. It is one of the stupidest things you could possibly do--especially when you can buy anonymous, 'pay-as-you-go' cell phone service for minor amounts of money.

    The real problem that the 'Law-and-Order' people, the ones who never met a form of privacy they didn't loath, is not that the cops can track you, illegally search you, or sweat a false confession out of you. All in all, American police can be great, but they can and have done all these things at one time or another.

    The problem with technology is that the law is a game and it has to be a game for it to work. It would be bad for society if it were possible to automatically find someone guilty and technology is bringing us closer to the day when that will be possible in more and more areas.

    From traffic-cams to face-recognition software, technologies are bringing us closer to a national security state where you don't do only good things because you want to, but because common sense tells you you should be scared shitless of doing anything else.

    --
    To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
    "Yeah. It smells, too..."
  55. Paris Hilton school of Personal Priorities by zenaida_valdez · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apparently, the teen(s) cited in the NYT article never thought to just turn the phone off or leave it at home when they didn't want their parents tracking them. They must subscribe to the Paris Hilton school of Personal Priorities.