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Israel's Finance Ministry To Distribute OpenOffice
dudeman2 writes "Israel National News reports that The Israel Finance Ministry said Sunday it will begin distributing Open Office for free as of next week. The ministry said that it would begin to distribute thousands of Open Office CD-ROMs at public computer centers and later on at community centers throughout the country, 'in a bid to reduce the technological gap between the rich and poor in Israel'."
Why should this relate to Linux? This is about Open Office. I don't see Linux mentioned in the slashdot headline.
Greetings,
Project Manager of Crystal Space (http://www.crystalspace3d.org). Support CS at http://tinyurl.com/cb3x4
"FINAL SOLUTION" is perhaps not the best choice of words. :)
Not to the start a flamewar on the subject of Arab-Israeli relations, but just imagine the impact if the U.S. gov't did this! I'd start getting .sxc as attachments instead of .doc! Then, the economically challenged could buy a cheap PC, or get one used from a church or something, and immediately make it more useful!
You are not the customer.
Palestinian authority chairman Yasser Arafat yesterday refused to comment on rumours that the PLO and Hizbollah were on the point of rolling out KOffice across their organizations, saying that internal software licensing was confidential and denying that the Zionists had got the upper hand by preemptively striking against Microsoft.
'in a bid to reduce the technological gap between the rich and poor in Israel'.
And in a similar move City Officials in Hong Kong announced plans to widely distribute illegal CD-R cracked copies of Micrsoft Office 2003.
oh yeah, wait, that's already being done without a government sanction.
Will Bill now start paying the Israeli government to use Microsoft products?
If there is a Hebrew localization of Office, what is to stop a zillion people from pirating it? (like everywhere else)
From the Article:
The ministry is aware that despite the substantial savings accrued by not buying Microsoft licenses, there would also be considerable installment costs.
I have installed Open Office, Star Office, Word Perfect Office and Microsoft Office for various clients over the past two years. Maybe I'm missing something about a large scale deploy, but they all seem about the same for installation. I can even use SMS to drop the package automatically. Any idea what they are talking about?
Viv
Gmail invites for ip
Check the weather story (below on the main page) out - a very opiniated response from the same user is on there, and the phrase "FINAL SOLUTION" pops up gratuitously there also...
The above sounds totally fabricated. FINAL SOLUTION is a giveaway ...
it's in my head
As a further note, the article mentions that Open Office is "for use on the Linux operating system", when in fact that's not the case at all. It's for use on EVERY operating system
(that's what the source is there for)
Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
The Scots got there first...
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/4/34593.html
If Microsoft can focus on LOWER licensing costs and improved Jewish language support, things may change and the GATES of communication will once again
the question is what does israel want? free software or good software. Do you want microsoft software instead but don't want it because it is too expensive? or do you don't want it because it doesnt meet your requirements? Also how does ms being a monopoly affect your decision since you easily switched to another software without suffering any effects from this monopoly you are so scared of
did you forget to take your meds?
According to Mac OS X Hints Panther supports hebrew, arabic and farsi now.
Those random uppercase words make the text seem like it contains some kind of secret code or something.
"CHEAPER ROBUST SUSPENSION PUNISH FINAL SOLUTION MONOPOLY. MANY KERNEL CLIENT LOWER GATES."
Hmmmm....
giving people free cds is like giving them free gasoline. it is almost useless to anyone without a car.
did you forget to take your meds?
A lot of people will dismiss this as a "whoop-tee-doo" gesture and that would be an expected knee-jerk reaction. The thing here is that one must consider the source -- WHO is giving the stuff away. It's not the same as me burning a hundred OSS cd's and leaving them out for people to take. This is a GOVERNMENT entity doing this, and thus has more "umph" to it.
This is most definitely a good thing.
I already make the Norwegian government send me things in non-M$ format; it usually ends up in .pdf-format. They are required by law to do this for me. Mowahaha.
People say I'm crazy, I got diamonds on the soles of my shoes...
Ministry of Finance sources told Globes that the decision could be reversed if Microsoft Israel shows willingness to compromise on its pricing policy for tens of thousands of computer stations at government offices.
Sounds to me like Isreal is just trying to force Microsoft into giving them a price break on Office.
"How is a Jew supposed to use an application if only the command line supports their tongue?"
I assume the tongue your refer to is Hebrew and it's worth pointing out that not all Jews' native tongue is Hebrew (and nor, in fact, do all Jews know Hebrew) and conversely, non-Jews may also require Hebrew support for whatever reason.
While Israel may be pretty much all Jews who would welcome Hebrew language support, there is a distinction between the Hebrew language and the Jewish religion (one is a language, one is a religion), and using the two interchangably just causes problems and confusion - so I suggest you pick your words more carefully.
Manta
Israel National News, or Arutz Sheva (Channel 7) as it's more commonly known, is a heavily right wing biased media outlet whose management was recently sentenced to various prison terms for operating an illegal radio station.
More details here
It's an odd source for tech news.
Don't try to bring sense into politics.
This is somewhat offtopic, but doesn't anyone think that Israel has bigger problems to deal with right now, instead of distributing OpenOffice.org CDs?
Because God knows that if you have troubles with your neighbors you should Immediately cease any attempt at doing silly little things like bettering your information infrastructure or freeing up valuble resources that were previously going to a monopoly that was selling you software that you couldn't use properly.
well, if it is a secret message, I don't understand it well... But, question : why do you want to hide a message on slashdot ?
Ploum.net.
Congratulations - you're _really_ stupid. Do you really believe anyone would misread what I wrote in a way that supports your accusations?
I've personally fought neo-nazis chasing a black guy whom I didn't know at all - I just happened to pass by. What have you done?
it's in my head
This is just a way to get people to try OOo in an effort to phase out MS. I think it is a good thing, and may ultimately make MS behave better is Israel, but it is not in any way, shape or form going to reduce the technological gap.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Parent's mirrror link redirects to some nasty images - ignore.
I'm going to shoot you now because you have Weapons of Mass Destruction.
A blog about stuff.
Because /. is primarily a US site, and that is apparently the majority opinion in the US (at least, it appears that way to an outsider). Hell, it's worse than you say - anything even vaguly critical of Israel (or even pro-Palestinian) is often decried as being anti-Semitic.
It's a sad state of affairs when reasoned debate is rendered impossible by that sort of thing.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Despite the anti-jewish trolls (someone mod these jerks down PLEASE, this is a TECH page!!!!). The decision Israel made points out both advantage and disadvantages of OS like OpenOffice.org.
First, there are still compatibility issues. Although OpenOffice is a great office suite as is it still has problems converting from other formats. Therefore, even though it is free, government agencies that MUST access historical files in the original form do incur further expense in making an accurate file conversion.
Second, when you have a government agency that requires certain forms to be filled out electronically you have to make sure that the people filling out those forms have access to the programs to do this. This problem is exacerbated by the first concern previously mentioned.
Israel seems to have thought this through. That's why they're giving the disks away and also why they're biting the bullet and paying for properly converting the files (part of the installation process).
If OS software is going to ever really make any imprint in the government or any other institution we're going to have to be honest. OS may be cheap, but nothings truly free.
It doesn't matter what you wrap your emotions around, Reality is a brick wall specifically designed to scramble eggs
From the article -
If the decision is carried out, the government will save millions of shekels a year in licenses, but could face much higher costs in other areas.
I'm largely technology agnostic, but I think a large chunk of the savings would be a one-term investment. For example, the need to train and familiarize people with Linux and the setting up of support centers would need to be taken care of. Also, the need to establish a solid base of Linux usage, complete with folks for Linux administration at the various levels (simple Open-Office queries to updating security patches).
Once this investment is done in a well-organized manner, the rest of it would just fall into place - I guess the momentum would take care of that. Wouldn't be easy, but it has to start somewhere.
Is this a threat to Microsoft? Or is this "for real"?
If they actually distribute the CDs, is there a difference?
I consider this a followup on this story at Linux Today about their threat to use Linux instead of MS-Windows.
As such, we are definitely seeing the economics of competition and choice re-enter the marketplace, and no matter how you look at it, this is a GOOD THING.
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
If by "make tons of money" you mean "list a hundred copies and be lucky if one or two get a bid", then sure.
Iraq
Vietnam
Korea
Afganistan
Panama
Peru
And well, is it not easy to call every one
arguing about Israel anti-semitic?
You that have so much knowledge of history
should know that the palestinians are a semitic
people.
...for reelection aside, people will buy new computers with or without OOo. In fact, some would argue the point that more will upgrade their computers BECAUSE of OOo's less than stellar performance relative to M$ Office.
Free software doesn't have to mean 'broken economy'.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
It's called Jordan.
Just joking about the post I commented...
No one has actually bid on any of those. It's not technically a scam but there are better deals out there. When I buy, I use Cheapbytes.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
actually, life in israel is rather normal. they simply won't let the terrorists have the pleasure. when a terrorist bombs them, they have things cleaned up within hours. they get back to life as normal ASAP. also, israel has a thriving IT sector. like here, if we let the terrorists dictate how we'll live, they win.
My problem? I was perfectly gruntled, until some numbnuts came by and dissed me.
Why is that? Because anti-Israeli nations will start pumping money into Palestine? The Arabs in Israel sure haven't proven to have the drive all by themselves. We've only seen progress since the creation of Israel in 1948. That's even with the Arabs attacking them every few years until the 1970's.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
And Grenada? This "war" is still the funniest joke in all US history, a monumental FLOP. SEALs invading college dorms full of students... Oh my! US were not retaliating. US were making fools of themselves.
All Hail Discordia. Hail Eris. Fnord.
Mellel is a word processor for OS X that is made by and Israeli company which supports right-to-left languages including Hebrew. It's very well designed and attractive (aside from the logo) but it's a proprietary format and the RTF export is lacking. I'm sure these will be improved in future updates. Oh, it's $25.
i used to do work w/ an israeli governmental entity who would send us large data files that were natively in hebrew. working for a financial services company at the time, i was obliged to find a translation service as we were using these files to populate a database. that particular entity was using office 97 hebrew edition to generate a large excel spreadsheet.
several characters didn't get displayed properly on my english edition PC and i went back & forth w/ the translation service and the file creators, until we learned that the issue was the file creators were using win NT hebrew edition as well, which represents certain characters incorrectly when those characters are then displayed on an english edition box. i think i lost a week getting that file straightened out.
ed
OpenOffice is a cross-platform suite. It's not just for Linux. I use the Windows version all the time.
Free software for the win32 platform is (I think) an important front of the F/OSS movement. Most people are unwilling to take the plunge straight into Linux. Using free software on win32 is a way to wade in and test the waters before jumping in. The win32 port of The GIMP was the first thing that got me really excited about free software, and I have since migrated to more free and open source applications and operating systems. For those of you running windows who would like to check out some free software, follow the links below:
They occupy territories gained in th 1967 war, which was started by Israel(they call it preventive or whatever, fact is, they started it)
Bullshit. Read some history. The Egyptian government blockaded an international waterway (the straits of Tiran), an act of war. Egypt might not have shot first in the Six-Day war, but they definitely started it. Israel responded, and other Arab nations joined in (with their usual military incompetence) and lost.
If the US army rolled across the border and occupied Niagara Falls, Canada, they could probably do it without firing a shot (given the sorry state of the Canadian armed forces), but it's still an act of war. Canada would be justified to shoot at US forces without warning. The US would be the aggressor, and Canada the victim.
After the Six-Day war, the Arab nations met in Khartoom to discuss the situation. Some call the meeting the "THREE NO CONFERENCE". There were 3 resultions:
No negotiations.
No recognition.
No peace.
That policy continues to this day (except for Egypt & Jordan). The 1967 war has yet to be settled. Ergo, the territories are legally occupied.
Also, just wondering, what would you think if people started coming on your land, with the intent of creating their own country on your land
Riiight.
The British mandate of Palestine was divided by the UN to create 2 states, one Arab, one Israeli. This was unacceptable to the Arabs, and they chose the path of war (and lost).
and Widnows since the days of Word for Windows 2.0.
Microsoft was the first major non-Israeli software company that invested in Herbew enabled and Hebrew localized version of it's products.
When Microsft started localizing Office and Windows, you had to use horrible DOS TSRs to get a pathetic Hebrew support for Lotus 1-2-3, dBase and others.
Are they providing a copy of the GPL translated?
that the Scotts get distracted fighting there mortal enemy, the Scotts.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
ooops... ;)
I don't understand english very well, so I didn't see the irony
Ploum.net.
It's for use on EVERY operating system
(that's what the source is there for)
No. My phone runs Symbian; good luck porting OO to it, source or not. Making something run on any given OS is not the main reason for making something open source; it's not even a particularly compelling one, usually. (More of a nice to have, than something that's actually important, unless you happen to run an obscure OS - but by definition that's not the norm)
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Saddam's army attacked US troops, *not* peacekeepers.
I *have* heard of the 9/11 attack, It
was not Afganistan. It was a group of
mostly Saudi people, not by a nation.
US was not retaliating Panama.
9/11 30 years ago. Ironic is it not?
True enough. Now, for the Americans in the audience, name which of these two equally-culpable psychopathic nations is the recipient of billion$ of your tax dollars per year?
And who should be accepting responsibility?
1) Go to Israel 2) Stock up on OpenOffice cd's to sell on ebay 3) Profit
Do you mean something similar to the unilateral cease fire declared by the palestinians which was promptly shattered when israel assasinated one of the leaders of a palestinian militant group? Israeli leaders want war. They want it because as long as they have the US will keep giving them money and Sharon will stay in office.
A blog about stuff.
It is you who did not not understand what the poster meant.
There are those who wish for an end to the Israel-Palestine conflict who also believe that the current policy of the Israeli government is folly.
I'm sure there are, in fact, those of Jewish descent or faith who believe this.
Criticism of a government is nowhere close to hatred of a nation. These two are too often directly linked.
"as long as they have the US will keep giving them money and Sharon will stay in office" That's right... So what you are saying is that the Israeli government is deliberately putting itself into an ecomonical crisis to get aid? Maybe that's what Africa is doing too?
I have been heard from few sources that the CD will contain Linux and Windows binaries, but from others that it will contain Linux, OpenOffice (Linux and Windows) and Mozilla. Can someone confirm the content of the disc?
As a citizen of Israel (and a Linux user), I really happy with this, but wish to see them focusing more on the end user, than the goverment worker. We are deep in pirate only because most people don't have money to pay for monopolitic software.
you'll just say we planted them.
It's just as well that we don't find them. I don't think they'll grow well in the middle of the desert anyhow.
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Nor in the favor of the other party. The 3th Reigh didn't exactly last its 1000 years.
One other thing seperates us. We have enough power that we can choose to use less than full force. The attack on the WTC & the Pentagon was exactly what the US Gov't would have done given the same resources. You hear so much about "command and control" when the TV talks about war. Thats what the WTC and Pentagon were and are. I'm not trying justifying the attacks, just explain. As for peaceful... Well I'm an American(shudder) and I'm peaceful, that doesn't make my gov't peaceful. The supposed reason we invaded Afghanistan was because Bin Laden was there. Bull Shit. The Taliban, horrible people that they were/are, offered to give him to us. We decided we'd rather kill people. Doesn't sound like restraint to me.
A blog about stuff.
I think the bottom line is, anytime an entire people are singled out as a 'problem', it's a problem.
Amongst the people in charge there are no innocents, but among the poor everyday commoner who has no beef with anybody, it's a different story. As is always the case in situations like these - guess who suffers more?
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
It is not exceptional any more. The Finance Departement of the State of Geneva distributes a CD with OpenOffice, Mozilla and some other open source goodies.
Hardly. About 80% of Israeli citizens are Jews. Approximately 20% are Israeli born native Hebrew speakers (CIA Factbook). The rest are imigrants from the US, Europe, Africa and Asia. Of course anyone who wants to do business there needs to be able to write documents in Hebrew.
BTW, if you factor in Palestinians in Israeli occupied territory who do not hold Israeli passports, then the Jewish majority drops to about 53%.
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
No.
Palestinians and Jews are the *same* people.
Jews are less "Jews" than Palestinians because
they have been living in Europe and US for so long.
If it is religion you are talking about, then
Israel is higly anti-semitic against black Jews.
Anti-Zionism has nothing to do with rasism at all.
In fact I do know Anti-Zionist Jews. You should
not mix the meaning of words and how stupid people use them. I do not think it is a good idea to form
a country because of religion.
The fact is that it is the same people having
three religions (jewish, christian and muslim).
So if we take God out of the picture they are all
the same.
No, Military crisis. The US doesn't care about the Israeli economy they just don't want Israel to be destroyed. Lucky for Israel the US is convinced that $2+ billion a year in military aid is the only way to deal with the "problem" of palestine.
Look at how Sharon got elected. Her went to the Western Wall with a shit load of israeli soldiers, probably the best way to agravate a situation that might have been on a path to peace. He doesn't care about Israeli lives. On the other side, neither does Arafat care about palestinian lives. But we all knew that already.
A blog about stuff.
So people will switch from a word processor to a spreadsheet? (.sxc is a "Calc" file, I'm sure you mean .sxw files, which are "Writer" files.)
.sxw files, and it annoys most people. I tell them why, and then send them a PDF. That usually annoys business people too, since they can't edit it. I tell them that if they MUST edit it, I can send them an RTF. I'm sure they roll their eyes and think, "Dammit, send me a friggin DOC file, you twit."
I already distribute
Oh well. The price you pay for being enlightened.
Yeah, those terrorists sure showed restraint on 9/11 didn't they? Thank God for that.
"One other thing seperates us..."
Us? Oh, I'm sorry I was talking about terrorists here. Is that you? So what you're saying is that you are with 'them'?
There is NO explanation for attacks like WTC that is acceptable. Attacks like these do nothing but hurt the cause of your 'people' - if that's what we can call those who would rain fire and death upon thousands.
I always hear the same rhetoric from your side about how you never 'justify the attacks', and yet.. Who the fuck are you siding with here if you don't outright condemn them, and why are we debating the fact that you DO support the attacks most wholeheartedly?!
And uh, last time I checked, the WTC had nothing to do with your assumed 'command and control' theory. It was simply a place of business with civilians in it. A lot of them. A lot to kill all at once - THAT was the aim. It wasn't the purpose of the target (commerce) as much as it was the amount of total death that could gotten from it.
Please stop trying to explain terrorist actions. I don't care - and neither does anyone else at the other end of your barrel.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Both sides? There are only two sides? How about Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Former Iraqi dictatorship, Egypt, or the terror-funding EU (who "need an investigation of where the funds go like they need a whole in the head")?
r en-qa.html
There is no Israel-Palestinian conflict, it's just the media-friendly face to the same old Arab-Israeli conflict. Arabs refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist, and Israel refuses to cease to exist, a rather simple equation.
And yes, Israel does have the right to claim the moral high ground, because mere days after Palestinians and Arabs joined in an attempted mass slaughter of her civilians, she responded with the most generous offer a victorious warring nation has ever produced - a return of the land for normalized relations - Arabs responded with their typical undying hatred of all things Jewish.
"On June 19, 1967, scarcely ten days after the cease-fire, the Israeli government decided in a secret cabinet session to return all of the Sinai Peninsula, all of the Golan Heights, to Egypt and Syria respectively in return for full peace treaties. At the same time, the Israeli government launched a clandestine operation to canvass 80 Palestinian notables on the West Bank about the possibility of creating an autonomous Palestinian entity, leading potentially to an independent Palestinian state. The Egyptians and the Syrians rejected this overture. They convened at Khartoum at the end of the summer, and they passed the infamous Three No's: no negotiations, no peace, no recognition of Israel. The Palestinian notables in the West Bank, the protocols of the discussions, all said they'd be interested in having an autonomous entity. They certainly wanted independence. But they were afraid if they concluded any peace treaty at all with Israel, they'd be executed. A historic opportunity was lost that summer, and we've lived with the consequences ever since."
- http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/02/02-06o
If you're looking for a villain in the Middle East, start with the dictatorships and tyrannies that have ethnically cleansed Palestinians from Kuwait, refuse to give them basic citizenship rights in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan (although Jordan is by far the best of that crew), refuse to allow Palestinians to immigrate (Saudi Arabia), and continue to fan the flames of hatred to perpetuate their proxy war against Israel. Find me a pro-Palestinian more concerned with the well-being of the Palestinian people rather than the desire to harm Israel in some way, shape, or form. I don't see all the apologists in Europe doing a damn thing to improve the living conditions of Palestinians in any Arab nations - a people forced to live in slum villages for the sole purpose of using their plight as a negotiating tool in their proxy war against Israel. I didn't hear a damn word when tens of thousands of Palestinians were ethnically cleansed from Kuwait, yet I heard plenty about it when somebody simply (and falsely) <b>accused</b> Israel of <b>considering</b> it.
There is one party amongst all these people that has an open, liberal democracy that not only includes over 1 million Arab and Druze citizens (including an Arab member on the Supreme court), but also provides the highest standard of living for any Arab in the entire Middle East. Israel has made quite a few mistakes - bringing in a dictator from Tunisia at the urging of the U.S. government being the most egregious, but to try to equate the two sides while ignoring the funding and motivation from the Arab world is utterly puerile.
Apart from the problem that everytime the Israelis raid the Palastinian AUthority, they trash the computer systems - the Palastinians could use OO too. They have less money (the computers were paid for by the EU), what they have tends to be older and they must handle now communications in English, Arabic and Hebrew.
I think you're wrong... He does... that's why he's building the wall, and now trying to evacuate some of the outposts (political suicide in his case) And for the wall-visiting: that's plain BS. Not only is it the holiest place for Jews, and a part of his country, where he has every right to go, but to think that war starts because of a persons visit to some place is absurd!
Odd how you forget the dozens of attempted suicide bombings, the dozens of successful shooting attacks, and the unmitgated hate speech and threats spewing from government agencies during this "cease fire." But hey, all terrorist groups should have a chance to rebuild their ranks, right? If Israeli leaders wanted war, all they would have to do is create a Palestinian state - there's no evidence whatsoever to assume that Palestine would be a peaceful nation - in fact, there's plenty of evidence to show that it would be a tragic escalation of the situation. You're a pathetic moron.
Yes, the Israeli people would love it if the finance ministry stopped collecting tax returns. You are quite right, with so many resources directed against the Palastinians, Israelis aren't that well off. The promotion and use of alternatives to closed source and expensive software is eminently sensible.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
"Vietnam The US came to the aid of South Vietnam when the USSR invaded it."
What the hell? Did you go to school in Arkansas? The USSR supplied the North vietnamese, but "invaded"? i think not. The war was initially, and primarily a nationalistic struggle By the vietnamese against France and their puppet gov't. When france left the puppet gov't asked us to step in.
learn some damn history.
heres a link that gives more info.
A blog about stuff.
Yeah, Sharon went to a site holy to Jewish people, a site which by the grace of a kind and considerate nation, was and continues to be under the supervision of an Arab body fiercely anti-Jewish in their views. The fact that Jews are barred from a holy place while Arabs are given control of it is a fact that's lost on your tunnel-visioned anti-Israel arse, isn't it?
What does the trip have to do with the intifada though? Absolutely nothing, it was planned long before the visit:
PA minister: Intifada planned since July
I have some good friends from Palestine who are very vocal about the issue. I have some good friends from Israel who are likewise very vocal about the issue. They are all very highly educated, very articulate, and very much believe in their perspective views. As such I have heard countless arguments on both sides over the years. I have seen numbers from both sides proving what they say, but in the end, they don't matter. You can make numbers say what ever you want them to - and both sides do. Both sides put out numbers showing how they were harmed, and how little they have harmed the other. These numbers are not stopping either side from killing the other, just encouraging it.
Numbers like these lead to more donations to Palestine some of which buys more weapons. When Israel does its the same thing - more money to buy weapons. They don't lead to any solutions, only finger pointing, name-calling and more bloodshed.
You know what angers me most? It's my own part in it. The majority of funding for this - both sides of this - comes from the USA. Until a few years ago I contributed to both sides in my charitable giving, and even worse, for a long time I did not take the time to understand the various points of view, and see my own part in it. So yes, I have blood on my hands as well. I often wonder what would happen if the money just stopped flowing.
Before I get off my soapbox, can anyone tell me how much money Israel has spent caring for those Palestinians injured in their various attacks on Palestine? How about telling me how much money Palestine has spent caring for those injured in Israel by suicide Palestinian bombers?
And we are surprised this keeps going on?
Secret sneak bombing of MSFT's campus at Redmond like Osirak?
This
Palestine isn't a state occupied by anyone - it's a name of a former province of Roman Empire. There was never a state of Palestine. There's no brutal occupation either. What happens here is unprecedented war of terror against civilian population of Israel and you and those like you are denying the right of Israel to defend itself (by calling it "brutal occupation"). And that *is* racism.
Perhaps they are multi platform install CDs?
I havn't willingly used Windows EVER, (old Amiga freak--Yeah, one of those people) but I find it hard to imagine giving away binary OO CDs for LINUX, as you would think they actually want the max number folks to USE this.
Most folks have Windows. Does OO for Win NOT support Hebrew?? Then it would make sense...
The Palestinians are also semitic (like the Jews). It does not make sense to state that they are anti-semitic. Basically you are saying a white person is racist for hating another white person.
How many of the 'poor' have broadband? How much would it cost those that don't to download it (if they even have an Internet connection). How many of them would even know where to look for it?
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
I don't know if they are still doing it, but at one time, most of the pirate CD plants were owned and operated by the People's Liberation Army. The PLA owned and operated a wide variety of businesses. They were put under pressure by the central government to divest themselves of some of these businesses.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
Take an OpenOffice.org Writer file (SXW). Rename the file to have the extension SXC. (For OOo Calc -- the spreadsheet.)
Now open it.
It opens as a Writer document just fine.
All OOo documents use the same XML structure. Based on some information in the META-INF directory, OOo is able to deduce that the top level of the document should open in Writer.
What do I mean by all this META-INF nonsense? Try this experiment: take any OOo document and rename it's extension (from SXC, SXW, etc.) to ZIP. Now unzip it. You get a Content.xml file, a META-INF folder, and other goodies if your document contained embedded pictures, etc.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
simple crap that should have been mastered before their 1.0 release. Jesus, I still have problems saving files in windows-compatible formats. For example, if the file is like one page long and has more than one bullet list then the file won't save properly...oh, it'll save, but when you re-open it, forget about having it look like it did when you saved it. Freakin bullets changed to numbers, bullets moved around, deleted, added to things that shouldn't have bullets. WTF.
01100111 01100101 01110100 00100000 01101111 01110101 01110100 00100000 01101101 01101111 01110010 01100101 00101110
giving people free cds is like giving them free gasoline.
Try throwing a flaming CD onto an Israeli patrol.
__
Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
GW Bu
It doesn't make sense because you are totally clueless about the origins and meanings of the word. Anti-Semitism is not simply the sum of it's parts, there's a history (etymology) behind the word.
from wikipedia (which is down right now):
Anti-Semitism is hostility or violence toward people because of their Jewish ancestry. Although sometimes used literally for hatred of all Semitic peoples, the word "anti-Semitism" was coined specifically to refer to hatred of Jews. There are numerous forms of anti-Semitism, originating in different trends in human society, but usually having the common ground of xenophobia.
Etymology of the word
The word was coined in Germany in 1873 by Wilhelm Marr as a more euphonious way of saying "Judenhass" (Jew-hatred). This name was chosen because Marr and others believed in a now discredited theory that held that certain racial groups and linguistic groups coincide. Semites, at the time, were defined as natives of a group of Middle Eastern nations related in ethnicity, culture and language. Under this theory Semites would include: Jews, the various Arab groups, and ancient nationalities such as the Assyrians, Canaanites, Carthaginians, Aramaeans and Akkadians (one of the ancestors of the ancient Babylonians). The theory of Semitic races has long since been discredited.
The only Semitic people found in significant numbers in Germany at the time the word was coined were Jews, and because of that, anti-Semitism was considered a convenient way to name the hatred of Jews without reminding of either hatred or Jews.
Since the late twentieth century, some have argued that since Arabs speak a Semitic language, they by definition cannot be "anti-Semitic". Similarly, some writers and speakers have used "anti-Semitism" to mean hatred of either Jews or Arabs, considering both groups as "Semites". This usage is nonstandard and highly controversial. Those who use it have been accused of creating a semantic dispute for propaganda purposes.
Trying to cover the occurrences of anti-Semitism or anti-Jewish rhetoric with banal and semantic arguments is a waste of everybody's time, so get off it.
Unless Bill Gates has a really, really big mattress that it's all stuffed under. :)
/. article about the software they designed to manage their investments. I'm too lazy to look it up, but I do know that all that money is being re-invested (aside from the 5% that goes straight into Bill's Evil Moon Base).
Actually, I remember a
A similar thing happens when regular people put money into a bank. The bank doesn't put the money into a small box with your name on it. It lends it out to others as loans, and a portion of the profit is used to pay you interest. So the bank never has enough money on hand to cover a massive withdrawl, which is where FDIC insurance comes in.
You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!
>The Taliban, horrible people that they were/are, offered to give him to us
HAHAHAHAHA! Talk about a gullible idiot! They also sued for a cease-fire while we were bombing Tora Bora while they fled the scene. Stupid is too kind a word for you.
Because Arabs, Muslims, and the rest of the world didn't give a shit when Palestine was brutally occupied by Jordan and Egypt (holding the West Bank and Gaza Strip respectively).
People didn't complain until the occupation was done by Jews.
Same reason why nobody complains about Turkey's occupation of Cyprus or Syria's occupation of Lebanon. Muslims as the occupiers are acceptable in the UN and the rest of the world. Jews as occupiers is a violation of human rights.
Conclusion - Jews are held to higher standards than Muslims. That's racism.
Dude, where in the USA do you live?
I often see pro-Palestinian student groups holding activities on campus, and nobody calls them anti-Semitic.
Every week someone writes pro-Palestinian and/or anti-Israeli letters to the editor in the New York Times, Boston Globe, as well as the student papers at my university, etc. These authors are never labelled anti-Semitic by anybody. Even by the pro-Israel rebuttals that sometimes follow.
I think you're just pushing the myth that all criticism of Israel is decried as anti-Semitism. Perhaps you're doing that to weaken the credibility of the pro-Israel crowd.
make world, not war
So bin Laden's objective was to cripple our command and control so that he could then engage the United States in warfare? No. He wanted to kill as many Americans as possible, period. By no stretch of the imagination was the WTC a military target, and even the Pentagon was chosen not for its military but its symbolic value.
The supposed reason we invaded Afghanistan was because Bin Laden was there. Bull Shit. The Taliban, horrible people that they were/are, offered to give him to us.
Source please.
How to solve most of our problems: 1.Lots of nuclear plants. 2.Cure aging.
Can you come up with one example where the U.S. was not retaliating? Probably not.
Given that the U.S. have never been invaded: retaliate for what?? For not conforming to U.S. ideas of how the entire world should do their bidding?
Never mind history, start with a dictionary and look up "invasion" and "retaliation".
The U.S. acts internationally with all the aggressive zeal of a Jehovah's Witness at your door, and smarts and subtlety to match (that is, zero). With a vast military arsenal to back them up, and little to no compunctions about using it. "Why do they hate us so", sheesh it's bloody obvious innit?
- nic
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
Sharon isn't just "some person", he is hated by palestinians. Viewed on almost the same level as jews think of hitler. Check out his history in the IDF. It wasn't that a Jew or an israeli went, it was that Sharon went.
As for evacuating outposts. Huh? They are still being built.
A blog about stuff.
On the point of "leeches who drained the lifeflood of XXX society", that view is common and applied to many different XXX societies and peoples. Why? Because there are many zero-sum games in which parasitic leeching is a good strategy. It is what you do with that fact that is important. Invoking Nazism (which decided that genocide was the proper solution to this observation) is one of the oldest tricks in the book, but if you look at the situation closely, there is very little similarity between the two situations. Israel is willing and ready to make peace, but Palestinian authority demonstrates a complete failure and unwillingness to reign in terrorism and yield control of its military forces to this end, and furthermore rejected (autonomously without consent of council or public) gracious offers for peace including Camp David II (July 2000).
Stop posting anonymously if you have something to say.
I always thought that the name OpenOffice was a bit too generic, but now when I saw your comment above, it actually adds some Authority to the application.
Someone who does not know what it is, will not just dismiss it as it sounds like "Hej this is legitimate and I better find out what it is so as not to look stupid" kind of thing.
Second. Once the penetration of OOo is above 10%-15% it will change the dynamics of document interchange. It's like when people argues that Mozilla or alternative browsers only need 15%+- share to prevent wes sites being designed for IE only.
Help fight continental drift.
The point was whether or not it was a war of retaliation. It was not.
A blog about stuff.
So bin Laden's objective was to cripple our command and control so that he could then engage the United States in warfare? No. He wanted to kill as many Americans as possible, period. By no stretch of the imagination was the WTC a military target, and even the Pentagon was chosen not for its military but its symbolic value
3 61 ,573975,00.html
e rr or/response/1088949
Not to wage warfare against us but to hurt us as much as possible. I certainly agree that the attack was symbolic but it was also practical, do as much damage with as little resources. The US economy is a large part of our political power and the WTC and surrounding areas are important for our economy.
as for handing over bin laden, here you go.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/1014/taliban.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/special/t
While it did happen after the bombing started if Bush took the taliban up on it he would have Bin Laden
A blog about stuff.
For example, Israeli hospitals such as Hadassah, are known for taking in everybody regardless of religion or background, including terrorists. One surgeon recently blinded by a terrorist attack had in fact reattached the hand of a Palestinian bomb maker, only to be nearly killed by one later.
It appears as though your gut reflex would be to give more aid, and it's an understandable instinct. The problem is, as numerous studies have shown, terrorism is perpetrated by middle class and upper class people by a far greater margin than those impoverished. Palestinians get the most aid per capita in the world according to the World Bank (no longer avail online, from a Jerusalem Post reprint of an Associated Press article dated Feb 19, 2003):
The key is in the education - one that's currently under the control of a group of thugs sadly put in place by both my and Israel's governments.
Your compassion is understandable and commendable, but ignoring the strategy behind terrorism will only lead to more of it. There's a wide political spectrum in Israel, don't you find it curious that it doesn't exist on the other side of the divide (usually because they're dragged out in the street and hung for their political views)?
By the way, you have nowhere near as much blood on your hands as, say, the average European. At least our government officials don't secretly delight at the prospect of our funds going to the likes of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and Al Aksa Martyrs Brigade. EU government officials hoping to prevent funds going to terrorist groups is a rare thing. As Chris Patten famously said, they'd want an investigation of where the funds were going like he'd like a hole in the head.
Fine if you feel it necessary to put words in my mouth about how I "hate" Israel, go for it. As for your completely specious charges that I hold Israel to some standard that is miles above the rest is absurd, I find that those who have far more power in a given situation are generally those who have more control. I may have referenced things which you either don't know happened, don't believe happened, or, wait for it, I could be wrong about some events. I certainly don't hate all of Israel. The problem I have is with the Israeli gov't, their actions, and US monetary and military support for above. I have talked many Israelis who have the same views as I do. On the other hand I find Arafat and the entire PA to be just as reprehensible as the Sharon Administration. They support the continuation of violence because it keeps them in power. The thing is the palestinians are really angry, really poor and really powerless. Israel can't be that bad off or there would be Israeli suicidde bombers attacking Hamas. I'm sure if I lamented all the Slavs Nazi Germany killled you'd call me anti-semetic
A blog about stuff.
The difference is that we, I'm american, have no control over what those countries do. We give Israel billions of dollars every year.
A blog about stuff.
Out of the entire computer programming population, what percentage are producing shink-wrapped retail productivity software?
Actually, I'm sure that would surprise the hell out of Benjamin Netaniahu. He's about as far from socialist as you can be without living on another planet, and he's steering the Israeli economy right now.
You misrepresented the grandparent's premise by implying that invasion (presumably in the formal military sense) is a prerequisite for retaliation. Your modification of the premise is, of course, absurd. 911 is an excellent exception to your "rule".
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
The interesting sellers of OpenOffice on ebay are these people who make a business of selling OpenOffice totally wrapped up in obscurity so that people who buy it think it's a commercial product.
A Good Intro to NetBS
"There were always palestinians that lived there and then the jews show up..." I'm sorry, but that is a "Palestinian" lie. In fact, throughout the whole time, (about 2000 years) there was only one nation that lived in Eretz-Israel continuesly - Jews. There is no such thing as "Palestinian people" - the term was invented by the Soviet foreign establishment in the 60s. For example, before the creation of State of Israel, the jewish population of Eretz-Israel referred to themselves as "Palestinians". "You know the iraeli arabs have special license plates that denote that they are arab?" That is also a lie. To begin with, license plate in Israel are assigned to CARS not to PEOPLE. Usually, the plates are put on the cars immidiately after being off-loaded in a port, and the license plate is never changed. Now tell me, why do you hate Jews so much? What did they do to you, exactly? Were you stung as a child, or something?
I agree wholeheartedly with you, but I see no reason on posting AC to hide my views.
I do however see little point in posting this information here as you do. There is a time and a place for everything. It will deservedly be modded down; this does not matter to me as I browse at -1 threshold anyway, because I value freedom more than political correctness and "brevity" in my perusing of posts. If I wanted selective news for the sake of brevity and "saving time" I would just read one of the many newspapers available which would be the mainstream equivalent of written news such as I receive on the internet. However we all know these situations lead to special interest takeovers, or rather expose the inherint exploitablity of moderation systems and centralized control such as in the newspaper. Anyway, moderation works wonderfully, just like violence, in getting sympathy for your cause. It was Hitler, I believe, who said, "If we won't let our enemy have guns, why let him have ideas?"
It's possible that I'm responding to a troll who is falesly representing the views he presents in order to create a negative atmosphere, but I could also be responding to a sincere advocate of the beliefs I hold. Either way, here is my response.
I personally do believe the White Race is under both a direct and indirect assault by enemies of our people. Moreso I believe that 90% of our people - that is white european heterosexual people - are under a spell. These people basically have no opinions. They simply follow the idea's that are presented to them on television. I call these people lemmings. The use of the term lemming in my post is not -as it would seem - the foundation for a "me vs the masses" sort of ideology. It is simply an honest reflection of the realities of our society. It is a reflection of how people behave, and how they act. It is also a reflection of the resulting structure of our society, and how people interact and deal with one another. It is simply a known truth that there is a CompUSA, Best Buy, WalMart, and other common stores in virtually every American town. It is universally understood - especially in a place like Slashdot - that the communication tools (such as television) that individuals consume at these would-be cultural centers are the clients of the most centralized, controlled, and cesored propaganda machine ever known to the human race. Therefore it is perfectly acceptable for me to generalize and use the term lemming in my post, as lemmings from anytown USA live the same, read and watch the same news programs, and have been socialized into a certain way of behavior and personality.
I feel a certain connection to the Anonymous person that posted. I don't know if he or she is a heterosexual white person, but I bet they are. I don't believe as the poster does that most Whites are concious of the real threat to themselves. Most Whites have been in tense racial situations, where they may have been outnumbered by homogenous groups of non-whites and been threatened either morally or physically; where a white heterosexual female has been encouraged by her peers to have intercourse with a non-white by her lemming peers (I know she felt of certain degree of repulsion and disgust in her giving-in to the peer pressure of her spellbound lemming associates); situations where a White person has lost a job, a college admittance, or other sought position to a less qualified non-white at the expense of policies such as affirmative action; I know that there are many Whites who are perplexed at the existance of "107 historically black colleges, whose fundamental blackness must be preserved in the name of diversity, but all historically White colleges must be forcibly integrated in the name of... the same thing. To resist would be racist."(stormfront.org)
I know that many Whites aren't racially aware, like the non-white races are, but they do observe the events I described and similar events on a daily basis. They fail to draw any correlations. They refuse to adopt "racist" doctri
If you enjoy music check out the homepage of Resistance Records. If you like to read, or are curious about various topics, you should check out The National Vanguard Online Bookstore. They offer a wide variety of literature which you may find enlightening in your struggle for more views that are similar to the feelings you are openly asking if anyone feels on the above post.
Interesting.
You seem to overlook the money the U.S. gives to the P.A., which when looked at in terms of population of Israeli citizens and population of people identifying themselves as "Palestinian", is a good deal more than what we're giving to Israel.
Not to mentiont that while the P.A. receives money from the U.N. and other international agencies, on top of the money they receive from the U.S., Israel receives only from the U.S.
Not to mention that the P.A. openly funds a terrorist wing (the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade) and has close ties to the P.L.O., another self-proclaimed terrorist group.
Not to mention the P.A. has a clause in it's constitution stating that it's mission is to "drive the Jews to the sea," something not mirrored by the Israelis.
Not to mention that we're not actually giving any of it to Israel. Virtually all money marked "defense" that comes from the U.S. comes with the caveat that it must be spent in the U.S., mostly on American army surplus but occasionally (and under careful scrutiny) to U.S. contracting companies.
So virtually all of that money, except that going to hospitals and butter et al, is coming right back to us.
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"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?" --George W. Bush, in Jan. 2000
Jesus H. Christ. It's not even worth it.
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"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?" --George W. Bush, in Jan. 2000
Jesus H. Christ. There's more than one. Are they multiplying?
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"Will the highways on the Internet become more few?" --George W. Bush, in Jan. 2000
... but not support, distribution, manuals, etc. So the industry will still be there (don;t worry about programmers, most of them earn their money doing in-house development, not commercial software).
And in any case, the software industry is concentrated in big commercial conglomerates that will continue requiring software anyway, but hopefully they will wisen up and choose software that puts them back in control of their infrastrucutre.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I guarentee Israel will be using Open Office on Windows machines, otherwise the story would have read "Israel switches to Linux and uses Open Office", but code portability in this case was the primary player. I doubt they would be using OO if they all had to install Linux to use it.
Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose.
To be able to at least partially save in a obfuscated format.
Use the native format and you'll be fine, if you need to export do it using something simple (plain text) and reformat in the other processor.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
True, but (unless I'm mistaken) both the Linux and the Windows version of OO are provided by the same people, namely OO.org.
In this case, the fact that the source is available to anyone who wants it is largely immaterial, as it wasn't anyone else that did the port. (I'm not daying that others didn't help, of course, but OO.org weren't relying on them for the work to be done)
It's official. Most of you are morons.
I have people at work use PDF, ISO-8859-1, or XHTML and justified it on purely technical grounds, however, I'd like to add a paragraph or two from the law book.
In the near future, there will be the Oasis file format, which will make archival work much easier.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
The doomsday scenario about anyone suffering when Microsoft goes under strikes me as bullshit. I'm sure even the current U.S. government could find a replacement export. Actually, they'd have to. Very little production goes on in the U.S. anymore, not even jeans, and the trade deficit + the budget deficit + deflation are about to pop a bubble.
As mentioned before, each day we read about more countries, agencies, institutions and businesses increasing productivity and cutting TCO by going F/OSS. Someone is going to be selling to these customers. If the U.S. keeps wasting it resources propping up the MS dinosaur, it will let everyone else get too far a lead.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Again, this not only a warning about the dangers of monopoly lock-in but also a visible example of where OSS methods excel. It's not only cheaper to develop OSS, but fewer hoops to hop through. If I can gather the resources, I or anyone can make a translation of OpenOffice.org or AbiWord or Mozilla or so on in the language of my choice be it Navajo, Ojibwe, Kildin Sami, or what ever.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Re Pearl harbour: Hawaii did not become a state of the U.S. until 1959, and to this day there are arguments that this may have in fact been illegal.
In any case, U.S. entry into WW-II is not at issue here. For the sake of focus, we can limit ourselves to even just post-cold-war cases, doesn't change the argument at all.
- nic
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
You misrepresented the grandparent's premise by implying that invasion (presumably in the formal military sense) is a prerequisite for retaliation. Your modification of the premise is, of course, absurd. 911 is an excellent exception to your "rule".
Not so. The claim I am disputing was:
Can you come up with one example where the U.S. was not retaliating?
in the context of U.S. invasions. Webster defines "to retaliate" as:
transitive senses: to repay (as an injury) in kind
intransitive senses: to return like for like; especially: to get revenge
(boldface mine for emphasis). Clearly, a prior kind of invasion of the U.S. by another nation is required for a U.S. invasion of the perpretrator to be considered a retaliation. So the question rather is, can we come up with examples where a U.S. invasion *was* in retaliation?
Pearl Harbor is one, fine. 09/11 can be considered a kind of invasion, but while that justifies action against Al Qaeda, overthrowing the Taliban is a different matter. All that rhetoric about "the friends of our enemies", "axis of evil", etc. leads down a very slippery slope of cannonboat diplomacy littered with domino theories, neo-colonialism, and U.S. special economic interests.
Iraq represents a new nadir in that regard, and this is where the criticism stems from. Nobody but a few fanatics sheds a tear for that bastard SOB Saddam, but ends do not justify means, and the means used here - specifically, U.S. riding roughshot over the U.N., invading a sovereign nation on an extremely flimsy, and most likely forged, pretext - are scary in their amorality and ruthlessness.
- nic
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
Clearly, a prior kind of invasion of the U.S. by another nation is required for a U.S. invasion of the perpretrator to be considered a retaliation.
Do you consider it reasonable, therefore, for the U.S. to hijack random aircraft throughout the world and crash them into things as a response to 911?
All that rhetoric about "the friends of our enemies", "axis of evil", etc. leads down a very slippery slope of cannonboat diplomacy littered with domino theories, neo-colonialism, and U.S. special economic interests.
Rather like that string of disconnected and unsupported rhetoric? If I may briefly assume you have made a strong argument that the U.S. invaded Iraq with intent to conquer her, why are our discussions regarding that "conquest" dominated by the question of when we are leaving?
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
It was a joke. Geez kids.
Speak for yourself.
Do you consider it reasonable, therefore, for the U.S. to hijack random aircraft throughout the world and crash them into things as a response to 911?
I never said that I consider retaliation a reasonable or moral basis for foreign policy. I did say that the invasion of Afghanistan could be considered a reasonable U.S. response to 09/11 if the Taliban had perpetrated it. Your likely response of "but the Taliban had links with Al Qaeda" is precisely the start of that slippery slope I was talking about. The Taliban and Saddam are ultimately both CIA creations - so are you going to bomb Langley? Of course not. This kind of argument is only used to claim the moral high ground when it suits your government's purposes.
To complement your above ludicrous scenario, how would you feel if the French bombed Hollywood so as to preserve the "vital cultural and economic interests" of their film industry? Some of the stunts the U.S. have pulled in South America (Panama, Grenada, etc.) are not far from that level of arrogance and lunacy.
If I may briefly assume you have made a strong argument that the U.S. invaded Iraq with intent to conquer her
No, you may not - don't put words in my mouth. The U.S. invaded Iraq in order to create a dependent client state in the oil-rich Gulf region, as a backup for the likely case that the shaky Saudi regime (or at least its support for the U.S.) collapses. They will leave Iraq as soon as sufficient political and economic infrastructure is in place to ensure that goal, and no sooner. Of course it's much easier to swallow the "we are good, Saddam is evil, therefore it is our moral duty to depose him" horseshit the government feeds you.
The nature of fundamentalism is to selectively enlist moral principles in support of one's own purposes. In that sense, the U.S. is becoming increasingly fundamentalist, and this is as worrisome a development as the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. From fundamentalism to fascism is but a short step - beware the beginnings. If I sound overly dramatic, consider the erosion of civil liberties in the U.S. and (to a lesser extent) Europe after 09/11. Consider hundreds of prisoners held for years at Guantanamo without being charged, without access to lawyers, in direct violation of the Geneva convention. Doesn't that worry you? Scares me as much as any raving ayatollah - more so, in that it's *our* governments doing this.
- nic
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
The domino theory is not being brought up here. There is no domino theory for aggressive Islam: Iran failed to go much beyond its borders.
*sigh* why do I feel like I'm arguing with a bunch of grade schoolers? I cited the above as three typical motivations for past U.S. invasions, nothing more, nothing less.
the U.S. and its numerous allies
At last count, the UK, Australia, Poland, Spain, and the Philippines (and don't tell me I forgot Tuvalu or the Vatican). Very impressive. Have you ever paused to ask yourself just why the vast majority of your numerous allies - including, I might add, the majority of the population in all of the above countries - have opposed your invasion of Iraq?
are anti-colonialist
Yeah right. If invading another country so as to ensure (or, as in the case of Panama, to shut off) the flow of some raw material (oil, cocaine, whatever) into your country isn't colonialist, what is? Don't make me go to webster.com again.
Saddam under Iraq was an imperialist/colonialist power (having designs on conquest of Kuwait, Israel, and other places). It is mainly this which got them in trouble.
No, it is this (namely his designs on Iran) which got him the CIA support to become a ruthless dictator in the first place. The CIA needed a counterweight to Khomeini, just as in Afghanistan they needed the Taliban as a counterweight to the Russians. The Iran-Iraq war cost countless millions of lives, did the U.S. feel compelled to intervene? Of course not: Iran was "evil", so attacking it with chemical weapons was "good". Saddam's became "evil" only when he tried to annex Kuwait, which is "good".
It all makes a lot more sense once you realize that the definition of "good" here is "having oil and a stable government of whatever nature, with no anti-western axe to grind". Saudi Arabia, for instance, is a "good" intolerant absolutist monarchy, but should it turn into a democracy, it is bound to become an "evil" one.
liebenschraum
"love foam" (liebesschaum)? It's Lebensraum (room to live). Hey, cut me some slack, I got attacked here for the British spelling of "harbor". Sorry for plucking apart your paragraph like that, but it's you who managed to cram so many howlers into such small space.
The U.S. tends to spend more helping these countries than it ever gets back
While this is undoubtedly true (pray what exactly do you expect to "get back" from poor countries?), it is worth noting that the U.S. ranks rock-bottom among developed nations in terms of its quality of development aid:
Nuff said.
- nic
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
Nothing was forged.
So show me the WMDs. Show me the infamous "45-minute" capability. Explain why where has been a suicide and several resignations in the UK over the "sexing up" of a dossier on Iraq's military capabilities. Explain why you couldn't wait another 3 months to let the U.N. weapons inspectors do their job.
As for "sovereign nation": Germany and Japan at the end WW2 were no less "sovereign nations" than Iraq was.
Completely different situation, since Germany and Japan had declared war. Nations at war forfeit their sovereignty in the event that they lose. Iraq was not at war with anyone at the time.
Why even mention it?
Because it's one of the fundamental concepts of international law, and as such highly relevant here.
- nic
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
Scary secret foreign goverment agency putting software on my computer. Damn how dare they. How can I ever check out what it does? Don't worry. I broke into their computers and liberated the source from their cluthces!
So the US goverment is already distributing OS software. If you look into SELinux you will find it an intrestting idea and a very usefull addition for machines not 100% under your control.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
And I never said 911 was a foreign policy dispute. I reject your premise that 911 was merely a diplomatic technicality. It was a cowardly, devastating attack against the United States. It stands as a completely different category of problem from the erosion of French artistic identity.
Some of the stunts the U.S. have pulled in South America (Panama, Grenada, etc.) are not far from that level of arrogance and lunacy.
Irrelevant. Your opinions with regard to the U.S.'s behavior in other matters does not change the nature of 911.
No, you may not - don't put words in my mouth.
Far be it from me to presume a strength in your argument that does not in fact exist. It won't happen again.
who are those slashdot people? they swept over like Mongol-Tartars.
And I never said 911 was a foreign policy dispute.
09/11 itself isn't, but the U.S. "retaliation" for it certainly is.
I reject your premise that 911 was merely a diplomatic technicality.
Huh? Have you *read* what I wrote? Are you on shrooms or what? Of course 09/11 was a horror, but in what way does that justify, say, the invasion of Iraq?
Irrelevant. Your opinions with regard to the U.S.'s behavior in other matters does not change the nature of 911.
If you were capable of reading my posts you would know that I was criticizing U.S. foreign policy in general and the invasion of Iraq in particular. I am in complete agreement with you regarding the nature of 09/11, that is not the argument at all. However, 09/11 is germane to this discussion only in that your government is exploiting the climate of fear 09/11 has generated in the U.S. to further a reprehensible foreign policy that has been in place since cold war times.
Shrooms or not, please try to distinguish between: a) 09/11 itself, b) justifiable U.S. responses to 09/11 (e.g., persecuting Al Quaeda), c) questionable U.S. responses to 09/11 (e.g., keeping prisoners for years without legal recourse), and d) U.S. actions against parties that have nothing whatsoever to do with 09/11 (e.g., the invasion of Iraq). There is of course a continuum between b) and c), where one might argue for instance whether overthrowing the Taliban was justified or not. What I am mostly concerned with, however, is d), and the fact that your government is fabricating links to 09/11 to justify d).
Over and out, at least until you're sober again. Must be good stuff, shame to waste it on political discussions. Go get laid or something.
- nic
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
"He may be referring to hidden costs like having to learn the quirks of the way it works, i.e., the differences between it and MS Office."
In my experience it is MS Office that has the truely bizzaro "quirks". Such as when you try to change the style of a paragraph and the entire document is hosed. Everyone I've talked to about such problems agrees that Office is the king of unintended behavior.
Open Office is a far better behaving program.
Just a reminder from your friendly neighborhood armchair political scientist: "Both sides are wrong, both sides have blood on their hands, everyone's about equally guilty," is sometimes just as much a cop-out as "they did it, it's all them, we're a bunch of boy scouts, yer honor."
Personally, I believe that this particular case of middle-eastern mutual slaughter is a case of one party which is massively in the wrong, and one party which is only a little bit in the wrong. I'm not saying which is which; that's not really relevant to what I'm saying, which is:
It is better to look at the facts and opinions and dig out the truth, or your version of it, than to go by an interpretation because it's "fair" or "in the middle." Sometimes, the factual situation isn't "fair" or symmetrical, which means a "fair" description is a filthy lie. The SCO situation, and the damn weasel analysts who take a weighted average of the SCO press releases and groklaw to get the truth, are a good example of this.
(I haven't even read the grandparent; please don't assume I'm defending it against the parent and decide my beliefs accordingly.)