Slashdot Mirror
RFID Casino Chips
scubacuda writes "Could casinos be the next Gillette or Wal-Mart? New Scientist and others report that casinos could soon start using RFID tags to spot counterfeits and thefts, and also to monitor the behaviour of gamblers. Embedded RFID tags should make the chips much harder to counterfeit, and placing tag readers at staff exits could cut down on theft by employees.
(With companies like Infosys helping clients identify and plan pilot RFID projects, we'll no doubt be seeing more and more companies dabbling in this area. Those interested in reading objections to RFID use should check out the position paper issued by CASPIAN, EPIC, Privacy Rights Clearinghouse, Junkbusters, ACLU, Meyda Online, EFF, and PrivacyActivism.)"
They can more easily monitor your swing of bet levels......
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
Sure, RFID the chips for fraud and theft purposes, but don't link me to the damn things. There's enough trickery goes on behind the scenes already.
You're in their casino, using their chips. It's not like they'll be tracking you with their chips at the grocery store. Why would anyone even take the chips out of the casino anyway?
So they now have to stop in the kitchen to wrap that stack of $100.00 chips in tinfoil before they leave...
rfid is not a theft prevention solution for small items.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
...as long as they let me RFID their cards...
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
The real news here is that it took them so long! I sort of assumed they were doing this kind of thing already -- the fraud prevention stuff goes without saying, but I'm surprised they haven't been analyzing playing patterns with this technology too.
As soon as you walk into a casino you're already under the eye of man many cameras monitoring the place. What will this add? I mean Casinos are already Big Brother incarnate, All RFID chips will mean is that you can't cheat.
This is a great use for RFID tags. Watch all the chips, watch where the move, and track which ones I have.
I love to go to the casino and play card games like Blackjack or more importantly Craps. Accurate tracking of chips tagged to me would mean two things: accurate comping and the ability to have a technical solution to ensuring payouts are correct.
Those of you who have played craps at a busy table will know what I mean -- the accuracy of your payouts when you win is always in the hands of the "dealer" working your half of the table. I've been payed wrong many times, sometimes in my favor, sometimes not. Sometimes money comes in from bets I forgot I had on the table, sometimes I wonder if I got missed on a payout.
If this means that questioning a missed payout can be more accurate or means at a minimum the casino can see in aggregate when they have someone working the table who consistently makes payout errors, more power to them.
This isn't a privacy issue. If you think you have one spec of anonymity or privacy in a casino, you're nuckin futs.
This really changes the scrupulous image that the casinos had going for them.
As such, they are free to do whatever they like to stem losses, gain advantage over customers, etc.
If you don't like it, you can go to another casino that doesn't use RFID chips. Ain't America grand?
The chips are the private property of the Casino... don't they have a right to do anything they please with them? Granted, they should post a notice on the doors saying "Warning, chips protected by RFID", but if having your chips tracked bothers you, simply don't gamble there. RFID itself is not the problem; using fraud or coercion to trick or force people into being tracked against their will would be a problem.
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Just don't gamble. :-)
Come up on a streak as a dealer where you're paying out through the nose, Guido the pit boss will have you take the day off...
Wrap the chips in RF-blocking metal foil.
It's finally happened. The SlashThink phenomenon of "RFID is bad" has officially deteriorated into irrelevancy. This time, we're apparently supposed to think that RFID in casinos has something to do with our rights. It doesn't, and shouldn't. Nobody goes into a casino against their will, and nobody should be surprised that casinos exist for the sole purpose of tracking and taking money. For casinos to *not* use RFID to their advantage would be stupid and irresponsible.
This sounds like a good use to me. Casino chips are easy to fake, can have high trade in value, and are very easy to sneak around. They're not supposed to leave the casino. You receive them from the casino, and trade them back in to the casino. No privacy concerns. It can prevent fraud. Sounds good to me.
I wonder if the term "war gambling" will be introduced.
and volva,
did you mean voila?
(Posting anonymously under fear of karma loss from that knee gently jerking back and forth in the Slashdot community. "Ahhhh! He's not agreeing with my anti-RFID stance! Heretic! Mod him down!")
How does this even remotely relate to "your rights"? Casino chips are the equivalent of "disney cash" in theme parks, IE under normal circumstances they are only used within the casino itself. Preventing loss would make the casino more money, and they might even use that to raise your pay tables when you're gaming.
The articles mention monitoring gamblers, but come on... you're in a casino! Your movements are tracked by a hundred cameras from the time you walk in to the time you walk out. Casino employees on the floor are designed to monitor your movement and habits and either 1) ask you to leave or 2) give you a free buffet coupon, depending on what you are doing. You have no privacy whatsoever and very little anonymosity in a casino. Sometimes that works out to your advantage.
Yes, there are bad uses for RFID. I don't see this as being one of them. Next thing you know people will be crying out because a warehouse wants to use RFID on crates for inventory control.
Oh, wait...
Great idea - but how will they change the data on the tag (i.e. owner of the chip) in-game when someone wins those chips?
You have to have a quick, efficient way of transferring ownership of a chip if you're going to track successfully.
Sig & Below
Yuck Fou
No more Wayne Newton. No more free drinks (except a swig from that bottle of Thunderbird that Louie always has lying around). And not even a remotely comparable level of hookers.
I'm going to go cry now.
And also watched by the government gaming commissions closely, lest their gambling license get taken away or worse.
And you're worried about fucking RFID technology in their chips?
Casinos are one of the few places you should absolutely stay away if you are so paranoid like that.
SIG:Slashdot: indymedia for nerds.
This will also help in tracking profressional card counting teams as they frequently carry large numbers of chips.
As well, if you can modify the ID in teh tags from time to time you could also "stale date" chips to stop pro-counters from storing chips for later use in a casino.
This also helps track who is alundering chips by cashing them for teams as well
This most likely will happen.
I used to work doing data visualisation for casinos - nice pretty visualisations showing slot machine usage. It was a huge hit with the casinos that used it. Most casinos use customer cards you see - you earn bonus points for awards if you put your card in the reader of the slot machine while you play. That allows the the casino to track your slot machine spending. More importantly it allows you to create visualisations of slot activity broken down by demographics (of course they collect a few personal details when they assign you your awards card...) so that they can better direct promotions, reorganise the slots on the floor (knowing where to place a bank of new slot machines can be worth a few million dollars!) etc.
The big problem was that while you could track turnover volume on the gaming tables, you just couldn't track the movement of players very well - there was just no information on that. With this they can have you swipe your awards card when you collect your chips, then watch those chips disperse about the tables. More importantly they can track the ebb and flow - movement vectors for the chips about the floor - that can be very useful information.
This will be a huge boon to the casino industry, who are always lookign for that new way to fleece a few more dollars of the statistically ignorant.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
More importantly, they can monitor locals who leave the casino with a lot of chips that they plan on cashing in over time to avoid paying taxes on that one big hit.
I've hit Karma 50 and gotten a Score:5, Troll... I win!
It is illegal to "pass chips" at casinos in Missouri (ie, Kansas City "boats" as they are called). Presumably to track how much you bet. They also do macro-monitoring (if you call RFID tags micromonitoring) of chips. They fill a card out with your name and some other info when you first sit down at a table, after you give them your casino card, which is a credit card like card. this card also tracks your spending/winning and keeps track of "compensation" "awards" called "comps" by regulars i think.
RFID tags won't be much different. Who cares really?
RFIDs in cows & sheep. I wonder if this and helps with disease control.
I count sheep for a living!
Well actually I am a computer programmer, but the other day I found myself in the middle of a portuguese field counting 596 sheep. I work for the agricultural business, and my latest project involves sheep and cattle with RFID tags in their bellies. The system I work with reads signals from an antenna that detects when the animals pass.
Quite a change from my previous job where I was making stock trading systems for a bank.
I've a suggestion for companies like Infosys and others planning new RFID projects. If they want to track my shit, just make the chips edible.
So your saying that having to do a bunch more stuff to coutnerfit the chips isn't making it harder?
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
What privacy are you attempting to salvage in a casino? Modern operations are among the most observed environments anywhere. As I tell my wife, this is the last place you are likely to get succesfully pickpocketed.
"Sorry sir this is not our chip, I going to have to confencate it."
Congressmen-
Find out where they *really* go during "work" hours.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
RFIDs can be used for good. My Ford Focus ZTW has a RFID chip on the key. If the correct ID isn't there the car won't (and shouldn't atleast) start. Adding extra keys and programming them is a simple task too.
IMO this shouldn't raise the same concern that the Wal-Mart problem does, which could be a real nightmare.
"And a voice was screaming: 'Holy Jesus! What are these goddamn animals?'" - HST
Ah, but if you get caught, then the casinos will undoubtedly try to bring the DMCA into this, especially if the IDs are encrypted somehow.
SCREW THE ADS! http://adblock.mozdev.org/ Proud user of teh Fox of Fire - Registered Linux User #289618
Casinos have always been a BASTION of personal privacy!
Casual Games/Downloads
Those gamblers smart enough to play with a players card (slot club) so that they can earn comps and get a slight percentage higher in returns know that they're being tracked. Of course, it's easier to do so at the slot machines where the computers can determine your exact coin-in and convert that to a specific number of points to throw into your club account.
At the tables, the casinos still track an individual's play via the pit bosses. While it's now a fairly automated/computerized instant process, it used to be done all on paper and entered into a system later. Regardless, pit bosses would still evaluate what your average bet was, determine the approximate number of hands per hour that you were playing, and then give you a rating. I don't foresee this process changing, as this allows the casinos to use a bit of fudge factor to favor some guests more if they're tipping, friendly, and happy versus the mean grouchy players.
What other benefits can the casino do by tracking individual chips? What about being able to monitor how a chip moves from game to game? Will it allow casinos to cut down the number of pit bosses? (probably not, for other reasons such as security) Are more chips moving from the blackjack tables to the pai gow poker tables? Would this affect gaming decisions that the casino makes regarding the blackjack rules, so it keeps players at the table longer? How about making the whole betting process more automated by being able to verify the total amount of money in a stack of chips? And, it's one more way to prevent cheaters from late-posting bets on the roulette table.
As others have already said: casinos are one place where you can expect to be watched no matter where you go or what you do. You already sacrifice some amount of privacy just by entering a casino in the first place.
File-sharing: Sure there are illegitimate uses for the technology, but there are a few legit uses. DON'T BAN IT.
RFID: Sure there are a few legit uses for the technology, but there are illegitimate uses. BAN IT!
They work with probability in order to take your money, inotherwords, all games in a casino are in favor of the house winning as far as probability is conserned. Some people creat countermeasures and exploit the games and win millions from the casino's, and this is the reason why if you win too much too often or in any way show you're a little too lucky, you'll get banned from all casino's in las vegas and thrown onto their blacklist.
So, am I suprised they'd use RFID? No, I'm frankly suprised they're still in buisness and people haven't smarted up.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
Wrap the casino chip/s ( RFID ) in tin foil ( aluminum foil, and they're invisible to the reader.
The thought the casino might actually be able to track what I bet is too creepy for words. What will they do next? Film all the betters? It might just get that bad some day.
They'll almost certainly assign a unique ID to each chip. So, if you turn in a bunch of chips that all have the same id number, it would be like going into the bank and depositing $1000 in twenties all of which have identical serial numbers.
If, as you seem to suggest, you compile a list of valid ID numbers, they can still get you because they could store data on where the chip is located. If the computer tells the cashier that half the chips you're turning in are supposed to be in the vault, you're busted.
Rank Presidents by th
I manage to avoid the surveillance problem and keep all my money by the simple expedient of not entering their establishment.
OK, they're using RFID tags in their own property to at the very worst, track your behaviour while on their property.
They're NOT putting these in items you buy, they're NOT using them to track you out the door, and they DO have a very real need to prevent counterfeits. There's increased security for them, and no invasion of privacy for their customers.
Where's the problem here? Geez, between this and the "forged colour mars photos," it MUST be a slow news day.
Oh, wait--both of these were posted by Michael. Interesting...
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
You might not have heard of metonymy but even the dumbest person understands it. Clearly you don't.
Doesn't it make you feel good to know that our freedoms are protected by politicans, lawyers and journalists.
At least he didn't say "vulva".
Instructions for casino employees;
1. put $500 chip in anti-static bag
2. leave building
3. Profit!!!!!
http://www.bourgogneetgrasset.fr/s551.html
This French company controls both the Paul-Son and Bud Jones (the two largest US casino suppliers)
Quote:
"After more than five years of research, development and day to day practice, Bourgogne et Grasset(R) has mastered the mass production of gaming chips with Philips' exclusive "Vegas" Hitag transponder and has developed several data collection devices based on Philips' exclusive Vegas Hitag readers to be used by casinos to authenticate their chips and feed their computer system for efficient table operation management. Other applications are available or are to be developed."
Doesn't all of this talk about chipping people and things remind anyone of Halloween III?
Or am I the only person who actually watched it?
Mod down! This guy used to work at my company and slacked off all the time.
And why do you think you'll only be tracked while on the casino property? Most people who go to Vegas stay there for several days, and keep their chips with them when they leave the casino for the night, until it's time to go home. They don't cash out at the end of every session. Most casinos will in fact accept chips from other casinos. You can use Luxor chips at Caesars, and so forth. You can bet that the Caesars will install the equipment to install Luxor's and everyone else's. So you'll be tracked no matter what casino you go in. For that matter, every local restaurant may also install equipment to read the RFID's and they'll track you too.
Worst of all, the local muggers may also get RFID equipment. Walk past one on the sidewalk on the way to a restaurant with $3000 in chips in your pocket, and the mugger will know the demonination, serial number, and issuing casino of every chip. It makes their target selection a lot more efficient. They could even give you an automatically printed receipt to file with your police report, but somehow I don't think they'll do that.
Sheesh.
At least he didn't say "vulva".
wow. you must be old here.
This is a reasonable use of RFID. Just like for warehouse inventory control, it's a technical means to reduce "friction" in the system. In this case, it's without real harm to anyone. (Except card counters, I suppose.)
Harm is only likely when the tags get out the door of a monitored facility while intact and operational. Unlike razor blades in a market, chips are not intended to leave the premises of the casino. Cash 'em in, and you're clean.
As others have pointed out, it's not like a person has any privacy in a casino anyway.
With reasonable men I will reason; with humane men I will plead; but to tyrants I will give no quarter. -- William Lloyd
Basically, the casino has the advantages in ways that you probably can never imagine, and will never hear about; so why not just take your money and throw it off a bridge? Hey! You can 'gamble' that maybe the wind will blow it back to you with interest!
How did this get a +5 Informative?
w3rd.
SCREW THE ADS! http://adblock.mozdev.org/ Proud user of teh Fox of Fire - Registered Linux User #289618
Casino chips are not something that the casino sells to you. You borrow them as an alternate counting mechanism. Putting RFID tags on THEIR OWN PROPERTY that STAYS THEIR PROPERTY, and STAYS ON THEIR OWN PREMESIS to prevent theft is fine. I'd say the same about museums putting RFIDs on those portable audio players and headphones they give you to walk around exhbits with, or shopping carts at grocery stores. It's theirs, it stays theirs, it stays on premeisis, they have a right to protect themselves against theft.
That is NOT the case if something is being actually sold to me. Ownership is changing hands at WalMart or wherever you shop, and I don't want something that is becoming MY property to come with auto-tracking mechanisms. If I want an auto-tracking system, I'll damn well install it myself.
But at a casino, what is being sold is entertainment, not poker chips. The chips are on-premesis loaned use, and so tracking those against theft is perfectly legitimate. Ownership is not changing hands, so RFIDs are not infringing on my property or privacy rights.
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
if you can find a single place to stand in a casino's floor without being captured on at least one security camera (realistically it'll be more than one) i'll give ya a free pull on the slot of your choice. Privacy inside a casino, aside from the hotel rooms, is a non-issue. You voluntarily enter a casino knowing you're going to be watched via camera and floor personnel. Granted, we're talking privacy from the casino itself, and not from the government. When you go into a casino to play games, you are surrendering a certain amount of privacy because of the nature of the place (hundreds of people walking around with money, and lots of it, out in the open). To their credit, a casino floor is one of the safest places you can be in respect to violent crime.
The more I think about it, the only use for RFID chips to which i do not object to are in casino chips.
Stupid people make stupid things profitable.
"The tags could also help casinos manage large-scale theft. If a large stash of chips goes missing after a table is overturned during an argument, for example casinos sometimes have to change their entire stock. This is unpopular with gamblers, since any chips that they have not cashed become worthless. RFID tags would allow the casinos to identify stolen chips without the expensive process of restocking."
----
Have to make the "Bad example" call on this one. No casino is going to swap out it's entire stock of chips (they are not cheap to start with btw) just because a tables worth got snatched. Outside of high limits areas a typical table is going to have $25K-50K on it (50K-100K for a craps table). Why would I spend a million or two replacing my chip stock because $50K got stolen? Hell I'd burn $50K worth of man hours and another $50K in lawyer fees just filling out paper work that the gaming commissions are going to want for doing something as drastic as a chip swap out.
between RFIDs in something I OWN AND PAID FOR, and RFIDs in something that I AM ONLY BORROWING.
Now, if casinos sell souvenir (poker) chips... hopefully those wont have active (rfid) chips in them.
Hell, they should put RFIDs in rental DVD/VHS cases, so they can track down the bastard who hasn't returned that one copy of THX1138.
Actually, inventory departments of companies might do well to RFID their equipment, especially with a wireless network full of floating laptops...
Terrorists can attack freedom, but only Congress can destroy it.
You can't count cards, or attempt to use legitimate mean to gain information about cards to improve your bets. The odds for the games are set by the casinos and changed at their will. If you win too much you probably won't be allowed to play. Collecting RFID chip data on bettors in the casino is no worse than anything else the casinos do - it's another step to improve their bottom line at the expense of the people who (legally) are most likely to cost them money. There should be no expectation of fairness at the games in the casion - because there is none. The only sense of fairness is (to modify a Clancy quote) "Fair means I get all my money back, and f*** everything else." If you're going to a casino, you had better have fun, because the likelyhood of getting ahead of the casinos on a consistent basis is probably low.
RFIDs in this case are reasonable because:
1) information of the movements of their chips on their property is reasonable -as long as they don't track my movements elsewhere I'm OK with them.
2) this is similar to data they already acquire and use (it is no worse than other things casinos already do).
3) the chips have legitimate uses in thwarting people who cheat (by most people's definitions, not just the casinos) - they can stop people from increasing bets late, etc.
The game is not much more rigged against you than it was before, and your freedoms outside the casinos haven't be eroded by this use of RFIDs in this context.
I probably should have made this a reply to the topic rather than you in particular, but I agree with your sentiment for the most part. If I had fun at casinos or betting, I might go, but I don't, so there's no point. Playing a rigged game and expecting to get paid is transparently stupid - it's little like going to your local mob boss to be a better criminal. If you're no good, he'll take your money. If you are good, you won't get paid, other than maybe in concrete blocks and small lead weights.
Meet me out in the desert at midnight, I've got a new project I want to show you.
in a case like this, this is an excellent use for RFID. protecting your own property by tracking the stuff that's yours using tags that you put in your own stuff is a perfect way to cut down on theft. in a casino, this is especially important. and having an RFID detector when people cash in makes for a good way to make sure the proper amount of money is redeemed.
i still don't want these things in my jeans.grey wolf
LET FORTRAN DIE!
There's no way in the world to accurately track chip ownership within the casino. With all those zillions of radio messages hopping around, how are they supposed to determine exactly which pile (or pocket) a chip is in? There's simply no way.
However, I see this as a very good idea to (1) keep chips within the casino where they belong, and (2) help a casino verify that a given chip is actually one of theirs and not a counterfeit.
just outlaw tinfoil under the DMCA.. problem solved
;)
But that would make criminals out of people who foil their friend's apartments!
You want a sig? I can get you a sig... Hell, I can get you a sig by 3 o'clock this afternoon... with nail polish.
There is already tracking going in in casinos by two methods.
1) The slot club cards that you put in to the machine before you play to earn 'rewards' for your efforts to give all of your money to the casino.
2) The tickets that print out. In most modern casinos, when you cash out of a slot machine, they don't give you cash anymore but a 'voucher' with a barcode on it. This voucher can be inserted into another slot machine or cashed in at the cage for real money. I think these vouchers are also used to discourage people from leaving with their winnings... when you print out your voucher you have to wait in line to get money, so you may be more likely to put it into another machine and spend all of your money then keeping some of the money you won in your pocket and only playing with another amount.
adam
In Missouri, they only allow you to buy $500 worth of chips a day...(state law) or at least only every few hrs...
for the high stakes poker games like at the Ameristar, ($30-60 and so forth) - that's barely 12 BB
so I know of a few players there who will take their $2000 home in $100 chips, so that they can come to the table next time starting with $2000 -
but having said that, anyone who thought they had privacy in a casino beforehand is a friggen moron...big deal...
RB
----------
ah honey, we're all resplendent - Bill Mallonee
Mikohn Gaming was working on a similar
concept called safejack (safe blackjack)
since at least 1998. The idea there
was that special chips would "announce"
their value (1,5,25,100, etc.) to a
computerized table so that the back of house
systems knew how much was being bet.
Assuming they have any brains at all, mikohn
probably filed for a patent on this stuff
years ago. The gaming equipment industry
is one big bee's nest of predatory and
defensive patent plays. (I wish I was the
guy with the touch-screen gaming machine patent)
Incidentally, I recall the system also
had a mini-ccd camera under the shoe so it
could also "see" the cards being dealt to
each player.
Seemed like a pretty interesting idea, but
I don't think it ever caught on. Maybe it
was too expensive, or just too far ahead
of it's time?
--chuck
You can't clone mE! I am invincible.
Superheroes can always beat techno-bad things.
RFID=Red Flying Interational peace Dart.
So try to understand that one's deep meaning!
Many Thanks,
Luke
If all the casino chips have microchips inside them then the pick-pockets and muggers along the strip will be able to tell from a distance who has chips in their pockets and be able to home in on them! You can stand by the exit of the casino with a pocket RFID reader and when your PDA lets you know someone just walked by with $10,000 in chips in their pocket you can signal to your heavies down the street!
If intelligent life is too complex to evolve on its own, who designed God?
I submitted Gambling with RFID a day or so ago, but the accepted one is much better. Oddly enough, the company Chipco International makes no mention of RFID chips on their site. I wonder how unhackable those chips are?
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
This discussion on RFID's in chips, and privacy concerns makes me think of a common mis-conception people have about Vegas. I've always thought it was funny that criminals on the run would flee to vegas. Especially criminals from LA. In less than half an hour every casino in town will have the criminal information and face. Then all the criminal has to do is walk into a casino, and bam! their caught. It happens quite a bit.
...
I agree with quite a few people, casinos are businesses. They have everyright to track you once you do business with their establishment. I think one of the safest places to be in Vegas is in a casino, Just don't live in apartments here
Don't you mean "slashdotted off all the time"?
Drive into town & park your car and you used to get a slip of paper with the time printed on it. A man at the kiosk would look at the time and charge accordingly.
;)
Then they changed it to a piece of paper with magnetic strip and the machine did the reading.
Both pretty wasteful.
Nowadays you get a coin sized token with no markings which is read electronically by the machine.
I'm all for removing the waste of paper but I've got to wonder if, even experimentally, that there aren't RFID readers placed in the mall to monitor my movements. Time to buy a lead wallet to keep them in
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Lord Vetinari will have .. words .. to say about that. :^P
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
This could have interesting implications with the IRS.
Right now casinos have to report you if you win $1200 or greater on a slot machine, hence the myriad of $1199 jackpots on slots.
In table games they have no reporting requirement (save the $10,000 casino cage transaction report requirement), mostly due to the complexity of tracking wins vs. losses.
If technology makes that simple, does that mean I'll now be taxed on my table game winnings? That the casino will be obligated to report them? Yikes.
RateVegas.com - Vegas Reviews
you cash out $9999, walk out with the rest...cash it out in small doses over time so you stay under the $10K radar.
This is known as "Structuring". Unfortunately the federal gov't takes a VERY dim view of this and can toss you in prison for quite a long stretch if they find you doing this.
That's sarcasm.
THIS THING CAN TURN ON A DIME, MACROSSZERO STYLE ALSO FUCK BETA, ~NYORON
In his book, Steal This Book, the late 60's activist Abbie Hoffman described a way to get a free Las Vegas vacation by taking advantage of promotional schemes offered by casinos. The casino would fly you free to Vegas and give you free room and meals, provided you bought a certain amount of casino chips. These were specially marked chips that could not be cashed in, assuring that you would gamble them away.
Hoffman's counterscheme was simple. Two people go on this trip together. One person takes the special chips and the other person buys an equal amount of normal chips. They sit down at a roulette table and preceed to bet against each other, one betting on red, the other on black. Between them they will break even on every spin (except when the wheel comes up 00). The person with the special chips bets only those chips. Every win is paid off in normal chips. Every loss of a special chip is converted to a normal chip in the other person's pile. When all the special chips are gone the two people should have almost the same amount they started with (except for 00 spins). At that point they get up and cash in, and the trip costs them nothing.
Theoretically one person could do this alone, because you should win almost 50% of the time, but in practice this is not always the outcome in the short term. Using two people makes it foolproof (assuming Guido doesn't follow you out to the alley).
I'm not a Vegas kind of guy, but am fascinated with schemes like this and the ones in The Eudaemonic Pie. I wonder if casinos still offer this sort of deal, or if it is so simple to beat that they don't bother anymore?
...the customers would remain anoumyous. I understand the casinos need to control the chips - they ain't a bank. But this will not happen, not today when no one has an itoa respect for anyone's privacy.
The main flaw with RFID that retails haven't worked out yet is a denial of service attack. Broadcast lots of RFID signals, at something more than minor power, and you can cause real problems.
Blackmailers will love it
can you do it even after you've had 2 or 3 free drinks?
To understand the statistics and best plays, read Michael Orkin's _Can You Win?_. It's published by Freeman Press/Scientific American.
No, you can't win, but you can have a lot of fun for an entire evening and not lose more than $50. I like the blondes at the craps tables, myself.
a situation where I think RFID is the Right Way To Do It(tm). If the casinos are using RFID to verify that the chips are actually thier chips before payout, and to prevent employees from walking out with stolen chips, then that's thier right and this seems a reasonably innocuous measure.
I'm sure that there's lots of people who are crying "invasoon of privacy", etc, but this is one situation where you truly decided to play by thier rules when you walked through that door, and keeping track of thier own property is in no way an invasion of thier employees or thier customers privacy.
Read, L
It seems to me that if you have nothing to hide, you would not care if a company or government is tracking you. After all, you are doing nothing wrong!
Maybe this is a cultural thing (I am not a US-ian, I am from France). For some reason, Americans are obsessed with "privacy". Seems kinda stupid.
Is it me or is the latest use for technology enforcing ethics where in the past it was left up to the individual to decide if he/she thought it was worth the risk to flout conventions in society? Anyone who already lives ethically isn't going to complain too much about this stuff but there has always been a segment of society that felt that some areas of ethics were a little more grey than the rest of us. It will be interesting to see how this really affects life as we know it. How many things in life have been dependent on activities that the ethical/just among us would rather not know about but which have been vital in maintaining our standard of living nontheless?
A fool throws a stone into a well and a thousand sages can not remove it.
You're only obligated to report $10k, IF that is an unusually large transfer for you.
That is, if you regularly transfer $100K or 10 million 2 or 4 times a month, the feds don't care and don't want to know. Think replenishing the payroll checking accout.
So if you're a drug dealer and come in 2 or 3 times a week with 25 thou in small bills, you won't hit the marquee, because this is a normal transaction for you.
Really, there must be 10 or 20 million routine >10k transactions every hour, the feds just want to know when someone who doesn't normally do this has hit the big time.
...and volva..
Next time you misspell it, please spell it vulva. Thanks.
It has been showen to break up marrages and cause all sorts of problubms.
As far as I know, chips are not currency. If you leave a casino with uncashed chips, you may have a problem cashing them in later on.
When I was in Vegas a couple of years ago, I never left without cashing in.
Casinos SHOULD be using it. There are all sorts of applications. The most interesting to me are making sure that somebody doesn't sneak an extra chip in after the betting is closed and making sure that payouts are accurate in games such as craps and roulette.
They will probably also use it to tune their games, catch card counters, and watch the flow of money more carefully. Stuff like seeing what happens to a bunch of chips when somebody wins big on a particular table. Where do those chips go? Does the location of the table matter? Does the game matter? This would aid them in making the layout of casinos even more mind-bending but isn't an invasion of privacy.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Don't be worried about the Casino tracking your betting habits. With all the cameras and employees they have, the Casinos are already watching your every move.
However, putting RFID's into every casino chip would make it very easy for the IRS to tracking your winnings or losses.
Alot of people forget about the chips that they did not use and just decide to take them home as souveniers. This is yet another revenue stream for casinos, and the casinos OFTEN post Expiration Notices in the classifieds' section of the newspapers outlining which Chips are now worthless. It's actually as tough a read as any Public Notices you'll find in River City.
The real reason the RFID chips would be used is so that if you skip out on a bet, say for instance The "over" on the Reds @ Phillies game, they can send 'Uncle Guido' out with a GPS to break your legs.
Stuff that matters.
The article is about the possibility for using RFID in casinos. Really, it give any reason for this than noting the possible uses. I saw the article originally on Ananova, then New Scientist, considered submitting it, but then decided against it. The reason for it, oooh it has the word RFID in it. The reason against, well there seems to be no clear facts about any casino implementing it or about to. Sure they could, but I could have RFID's inserted into my eyes.
Casinos already keep a close eye on people who win at tables, thats what the security cameras and staff are there for.
I was in Vegas last month for business. I had time to kill before a flight, so I sat at the bar and played video poker. I was up 40, down 10, and ended up even.
;)
On the game. I also made out with 4 beers.
Of course, if I had lost $20, it wouldn't have been a big deal - same I would have paid for the beers had I not been gambling.
Casinos make money off of people who GAMBLE. Those of us who bet the minimum can have a good time on the cheap. After all, even on games that only pay out 95%, if you bet $300/hr, you're still only out $15/hr. And the chicks are hot.
paintball
The real reason the RFID chips would be used is so that if you skip out on a bet, say for instance The "over" on the Reds @ Phillies game, they can send 'Uncle Guido' out with a GPS to break your legs.
Assuming they want to go to the trouble of sweeping the entire town to find out where the chips are (remember, the range on those things is fairly limited), then I suppose Guido could break the chips' legs. :-) But since they don't really know who has the chips, that probably wouldn't be enough to track you personally. Of course, if they get someone with an RFID blow dart shooting patrons as they come in.... :-)
Card counting will soon be a thing of the past anyway.
...
More and more casinos now use these perpetual shuffing thingys which continously shuffle a monster multideck shoe
Every hand played has the same odds as every other one
---- "Logoff! That cookie shit makes me nervous!" - A. Soprano
Everybody knows that the big casinos give out free drinks so you loosen up and gamble more. So here's what you do:
:)
1. Get lots of chips in your pockets
2. Secure said chips in such a way that you can't get them when you're drunk (maybe in a bag with a cable tie)
3. Stand around and let the casino see how much you have to lose
4. Get free drinks
Everytime you look at porn a devil gets their horns.
He had so much free time (we already knew what was expected so we didn't really need his input) that he took to gambling. Card counting in blackjack was a new idea then so he spent most of his work time simulating various counting strategies. On the weekends, he'd fly to Vegas and test his various strategies. He got the house to fund his "research" by signing a chit for his chips. To cover what he was doing, he'd cash in his winnings for cash and then pay off his chit at the end of the month. As far as the casino was concerned, this guy was a goldmine because they didn't have a mechanism to see that he was taking cash out the door instead of settling his weekly bill. They just saw the money flow in at the end of the month when he settled. Net result was he got a lot of comped flights to Vegas. He didn't enjoy the gambling because it was monotonous but the positive cash flow was good enough to keep him going back for more.
Had the casinos had rfid embedded chips, they would have been able to track the money flow better and realized what he was up to a lot sooner than they eventually did.
If people are so worried about being mugged because they are carrying around a few grand in their pockets they deserve to lose that money. In normal life, or even on most vactions, people don't walk around with $3000+ in cash on them. They commonly walk around with credit cards that can be used well over that amount though and don't worry about it. Why? Because there are safeguards in place for non-cash money systems. If you're that concerned about the chips in your pocket, cash them out when you leave and carry around a receipt that shows your money, not the money itself.
Sheesh.
Personally, it just got me thinking of new and different ways to smuggle merchandise, rather than sticking it down your pants on the way out the door. Didn't ever do any of them, and never had any intention of stealing in the first place, but the point is their searches are what motivated me to really consider how I'd go about stealing. In many ways a weak deterrent is worse than no deterrent at all.
Now I suppose they just use RFID tags, never mind the pat-downs or CCTV.
"Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
I don't think you've ever been to Vegas. Also, I don't walk around with 3 grand in cash in my pocket every day, but I've done it a number of times when I had occasion to. It's not a big deal, as long as you don't advertise it or look like you're carrying it, you're no less safe than if you don't have it. But if the cash is broadcasting radio signals saying "Steal me! Steal me!", that's a lot less safe.
Come on! It's simple to construct a faraday cage to thwart this.
Now who will be the new up and coming entreprenure who sells 'chip holders' for all those big spenders who want some privacy?
I'd go on a Vegan diet but the delivery time from Vega is too long. --brownkitty
You count because eventually the odds will swing massively in your favor. You need to stay alive the the table until that happens, e.g. when the odds are horrible or medicore. You bet less then. You make it back when the odds are good.
Card counting does not require you to be a genius. Can you count on your fingers? Because that's what it comes down to.
Comps add another dimension to the puzzle.
..don't panic
If people are walking around outside with casino chips, all a mugger will have to do is scan them to see which ones are worth the effort of a robbery. No more knocking over some old lady and just getting chump change.
Those green zeros come up a lot more than you expect. If you actually tried Hoffman's system, you and your confederate would both end up losing.
(from Knowifi.com)
"Knowifi's Casino Marketing Event Manager (cMEM) allows you to track the movement of guests throughout your property. Give your convention or event guest a promotional item with an embedded WiFi tag and find out where they travel on your property and how long they stay in each venue (casino, food & beverage outlets, entertainment, etc.). Now you can have accurate information about whether your promotional events drive customers to the casino.
"Here's how the system works:
"Event attendee information is entered or uploaded from the convention system, event listing, registration system or entertainment system into the cMEM database. Attendee information can be anonymous.
"Event attendees are issued a promotional item (hat, key chain, comp, coupon, etc.) with an embedded WiFi tracking tag.
"Either standalone or as part of an existing WiFi network, access points are positioned cover key zones throughout the property (e.g. casino, buffet, hotel, entertainment, etc.).
"As guests move through the zones, the WiFi access points detect the guest and sends data about their movement to update the cMEM database.
"At the conclusion of the event, the event manager prints out reports that analyze the movement of the guests for that event throughout the property.
"Now property marketing managers can use actual data, instead of pro forma estimates, to determine whether their promotional events are driving casino traffic!"