More ApeXtreme Info

Hack Jandy writes "AnandTech has some pretty interesting follow up information to last week's sneak peek and discussion concerning VIA's attempt to penetrate the console market. By the looks of it, the S3 DeltaChrome GPU is horribly incapable of making VIA/Apex a formidable gaming console." More on vaporware at CES: Bob Gortician points to this "interesting, if terse, piece on the Phantom game console's debut..."

Comments

high on fumes...

[dan2550]

all this vaporware is making me dizzy

Re:high on fumes...

[jangell]

Why does everyone make such a big deal out of Sony's backwards compatibility with PS1. PS1 didn't even HAVE good games. Crappy frame rates, low replay abilities. Seriously. If that's Sony's only arguement is "i want to play my old games" then what the hell? Chances are if they have the old games, they have the old console too. Am I missing something?

Re:high on fumes...

[bugbread]

A few (though they may be of negligible impact): Backwards compatibility means that if, for example, you don't own a PS1, when you buy a PS2 you not only have a library of new titles, but you can find old (and therefore cheap) games for the PS1, you can play your friends' old games, and during dry spells of games you can rent old classics.

Also, for people who live where space is a premium, you can get rid of your old console and play your old and new games on your new system, you don't have to buy a switch to connect both your old and new systems to the TV/stereo, and you can sell your old system for maybe enough to get a new game.

Like I said, these may not be big issues, but it depends on the person. For me, in Tokyo, the idea of needing both my almost-refrigerator-size XBox and the upcoming XBox Next to play all my games will be a pain in the butt. No space left in the TV stand, and not much space left on my computer table.

Re:high on fumes...

[DrMrLordX]

Backwards compatibility has always been a selling point for consoles in the US since the early 80s. Take a look at all the flak Atari got over the Atari 5200 not being able to play 2600 games natively. I'm sure there were some folks who were miffed over not being able to play NES games on the SNES at release either(as I recall, an adapter was introduced later, though I can't remember for sure).

Also, sometimes, old games are good, and it's nice to be able to play them without having multiple machines all hooked up to the same television/monitor/whatever. PS1 compatibility should be easy for Sony to include in any number of future consoles, as long as they stick to some kind of optical media so the drives can read old CDs.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a PS10 that can play games from PS1 on up to PS9? Well . . . maybe not. Having an optical drive by that point may not be desirable.

Re:high on fumes...

[Afrosheen]

PS1 didn't even HAVE good games.

Super obvious troll, but I'll bite. The original playstation had thousands of good games, and at least 20 GREAT titles. You may remember Warhawk, one of the greatest flying battle games ever. And then there was the Ace Combat series. Then there were all the Final Fantasy games including Final Fantasy Tactics. Then there was the revolutionary Gran Turismo series. Ridge Racer. There were so many games I can't even scratch the surface with naming them in one paragraph.

You are indeed missing something. Either it's age, memory, or experience.

Re:high on fumes...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but the important fact is will it run DN4Ever?

If it's a hoax...

[dilweed]

Why would someone go to such elaborate measures and great expense(putting together a prototype, sending exhibitors to CES, et al.) just to fool... whom? If it *isn't* a hoax, how can they possibly compete against heavy hitters like MS and Sony? I don't get it, what's it all about?

Re:If it's a hoax...

[Kenja]

would someone go to such elaborate measures and great expense(putting together a prototype, sending exhibitors to CES, et al.) just to not demonstrate anything? No one has ever seen this system running, the offices of the company are one empty room in a strip mall. If its not a hoax it would be easy to prove, just show a system that does somthing.

Re:If it's a hoax...

[MajorDick]

Ahh, well in the late 70's early 80's a company ran tons of ads in Byte and other computer mags, had nonworking display's at all the major shows, even had "fake" reviews, they pre-ordered and disappeared. I cant remeber the name maybe someone else can I think it was World Compter Systems or something of the like. But anyhow THATS why someone MIGHT want to do something like this, (I am not saying this is what they are doing at all) I am just saying this is why someone MIGHT want to

Re:If it's a hoax...

[LostCluster]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this ApeXtreme brand an offshot of the Apex company that puts out those amazingly low priced TVs?

Re:If it's a hoax...

[Babbster]

Why? Because if they go far enough to convince one or two venture capitalists that they're serious (this is much harder post-bubble), they can get a nice cash infusion, coast for a while longer, buy Ferraris and then fold, citing technical, competitive and/or licensing problems as being too great to overcome.

I have a hard time believing in the company's sincerity, if only because they haven't even been able to demonstrate an early prototype, let alone one ready to be put into production. Seriously, even if all it could do was download and boot, say, Unreal Tournament (PC version, obviously) and then play on a television with whatever controller they're planning to use, that would be worth showing. Coming to CES with a box that doesn't do anything is unlikely to impress anyone but the gullible.

Re:If it's a hoax...

[Dr Reducto]

" Why would someone go to such elaborate measures and great expense(putting together a prototype, sending exhibitors to CES, et al.) just to fool... whom? If it *isn't* a hoax, how can they possibly compete against heavy hitters like MS and Sony? I don't get it, what's it all about?"

Well the Phantom really isn't a console. It's just a broadband device that will be offered in conjunction with the broadband providers (Comcast being one that I can remember at the moment). You download games,movies,music, etc. through the Phantom, and play them back on the Phantom too. In addition, it might have PVR functions too!

Re:If it's a hoax...

[Anonymous Coward]

Infinium is a pile of shit. Being affiliated with a company they're currently trying to sue (they won't win, and will walk away with a nice legal fee due to indemnification clauses in the contract), I can say without hesitation that IF the Phantom ever makes it to market, the "team" will ruin their reputation before it ever makes a dent in the sales charts.

What were they thinking?

[haRDon]

S3 Deltachrome?
Competitive Game Console?

Looks like this is a marketing ploy. Make some money out of suckers by using the cheapest possible hardware.

Re:What were they thinking?

[temojen]

If you read the article, you'd see that the GPU in use is made by VIA. The S3 core is just included as part of the motherboard chipset, but is disabled.

Re:What were they thinking?

[TheAvatar666]

Wrong. The CM400 (Via) has integrated graphics, and this is the one disabled. S3 DeltaChrone is the one pumping the 'amazing' graphics for the console.

Re:What were they thinking?

[visgoth]

I'd have to say the putz that thought s3 was capable of making a decent chipset was the disabled one.

Actually, is the article even remotely correct on this? Via makes chipsets, s3 makes gpus... not the other way around, or am I just astonishingly ignorant?

Re:What were they thinking?

[Anonymous Coward]

VIA bought up S3.

Re:What were they thinking?

[Anonymous Coward]

VIA owns S3 so the S3 DeltaChrome is a VIA product.

What are they thinking?

[BoldAC]

Sony, Nitendo, Microsoft -- that's it. That's all the market can handle...

Sorry boys, there is no more room for you.

They will lose like all the consoles that have come and gone before. Xbox would have lost too... if they didn't have Microsoft's endless wealth behind them.

Keep it vapor guys... It'll be cheaper that way for you.

AC

Re:What are they thinking?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sega and Nintendo -- that's it. That's all the market can handle...

Sorry boys, there is no more room for you.

Re:What are they thinking?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish Sony and MS would die so the market could handle consoles I'm not boycotting.

Re:What are they thinking?

[Chris Mattern]

And that would've been true, if both Nintendo and Sega hadn't been polite and made room for them. (Two words: "Sega Saturn" Two more words: "SNES CD-ROM")

Chris Mattenr

S3 can't make a decent gaming chip?

[Toxygen]

I guess I should start knitting that sweater Satan wanted.

Days of old...

[MajorDick]

This whole console thing is starting to make me feel like its the 70's again, or early 80's anyway. Here a console there a console, everyones got a consol either out or coming out.

Remember some of the oddball consoles (some REALLY cool at the time) that just completley FLOPPED.

Re:Days of old...

[jasonhamilton]

Hey, the 3D0 wasn't all that bad. Ermm... maybe it was.

Re:Days of old...

[jonbrewer]

Remember some of the oddball consoles (some REALLY cool at the time) that just completley FLOPPED.

As this one runs PC games, it's not likely to flop because of lack of software. In fact, I think it's a brilliant idea, especially as it has DVI-out (hook straight into the DLP rear-projection tv or plasma on the wall) and optical digital out.

It's bound to be a "must-have" for those of us who never got in to the whole Console games thing, but wouldn't mind having a PC hooked up to the TV. (think network-enabled media center that plays video games.)

The only thing it's missing now is PVR, but give them a few months.

How About This Slogan?

[tb3]

The Phantom Game Console - If SCO made game platforms instead of lawsuits.

Re:How About This Slogan?

[Anonymous Coward]

Except you're talking about the wrong game console...

That's not to say I disagree with you. My company has already had some legal 'discussions' with Infinium Labs (the company behind the Phantom) because they didn't want to pay their bills...

Ever since January 11

[Marijuana al-Shehi]

You just don't know!

It will all come down to one system

[SexyKellyOsbourne]

Why is another company with relatively little financial base compared to Sony and Microsoft trying to enter the console market?

Nintendo is already on its way out to becoming a software-only company like Sega was. Microsoft is doing reasonably well in the US, but flopping in Japan and Europe. Sony dominates in all three areas, because they've been the standard since the PS1 -- which they're still backwards compatible with, by the way.

With days of software being unportable due to heavy use of assembly language being a thing of the far past, and games being more modular, people are going to do what they do in the business world and bet on the winner.

The winner? Sony. They're too big, and most likely can't be dethroned. They're also in bed with Linux, which is a good thing. In Japan, they released a TIVO/DVD-R/PS2 combo, and are on their way to creating and dominating with a single living room device.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Luke the Obscure]

"They're too big, and most likely can't be dethroned."

You could have said that about Nintendo in the 80's and early 90's... Then along came a blunder called the Nintendo 64.

If we've learned anything, it's that you can never predict what will happen when the next generation of concoles comes out.

And as far as Nintendo being on the way out... The price drop to 99$ has (arguably) put them back in the #2 spot. They're still the undisputed king of the handheld market (N-Gage being as good as say... N'Sync- AND as cleverly named), and unlike Microsoft, they actually make a profit everytime they sell a console.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Snad]

Nintendo is already on its way out to becoming a software-only company like Sega was. Microsoft is doing reasonably well in the US, but flopping in Japan and Europe. Sony dominates in all three areas, because they've been the standard since the PS1 -- which they're still backwards compatible with, by the way.

Nintendo is hardly on its way out.

The Gamecube is globally selling as much as, or more than, the XBox (depending on which particular analyst you listen to), and Nintendo aren't pumping cash into it like Microsoft are to prop up the XBox. The Gameboy is of course selling in the millions.

Sony has certainly outsold both Nintendo and Microsoft, but neither of the second placed companies are going to be moving out of consoles any time soon. Expect to see a new Nintendo box released, along with the PS3 and the XBox 2, and expect it to perform well.

Contrary to popular belief, a company does not have to be in the number 1 position to be either profitable or successful.

There is room in most markets for multiple competitors. This is something for which I'm exceedingly grateful given that the current incumbent number 1 companies are producing, invariably, lesser experiences than those on a smaller scale.

Calls for a Highlander-esque "there can be only one!" death match are usually only by fanboys who can't see that there must be more than a single "winner".

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Osty]

With days of software being unportable due to heavy use of assembly language being a thing of the far past, and games being more modular, people are going to do what they do in the business world and bet on the winner.

In regards to PC games, you're somewhat correct, as usage of assembly is pretty much limited to discrete pieces that need extreme performance. These pieces are easier to re-write than the entire application. However, console games are a different beast. As consoles age and developers become more familiar with the hardware (and at the same time are required to squeeze more and more out of the hardware, because a third or fourth generation title is expected to be more impressive than a first generation title), developers develop their own libraries for the console using low-level languages. This is especially common on Sony platforms, because 1) the PS1 was alive for so long, the initial development libraries were completely inadequate near its end of life, and 2) Sony totally dropped the ball with the PS2, not even providing a higher-level set of libraries*. Now, a lot of these are portable across platforms with a recompile, because the developers will write the backends for multiple consoles while the library's interface remains the same. These games are not portable simply by putting the disc in a different console, however.

So, how does the PS2 achieve backwards compatibility with PS1 games? Sleight of hand. The PS2 includes a PSOne-on-a-chip (the development of which made it possible to release the cheap, compact PSOne redesign of the PS1). It shares memory and hardware devices with the PS2 hardware, but when you pop in a PS1 game the Emotion Engine and so forth are not working at all. It's all being done via the PSOne-on-a-chip.

* Sony saw that 5 years after the PS1 launch no developers were using the Sony-provided tools (well, outside of hobbyist-level startup shops that didn't have the time or money to develop their own libraries or buy a good set from established parties like EA). If no developers are going to use the tools, why should they spend time and money on developing those tools for the PS2? Of course, they didn't look back and see that the PS1 would not have been as popular in its early life if it had not been easy to write for initially. This forced companies to spend millions of dollars and months of work to gear up for PS2 development, and is why there were very few good early launch titles for PS2. The PS2 was almost totally carried by its PS1 compatibility in the first 6-12 months of its life.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Anonymous Coward]

Calls for a Highlander-esque "there can be only one!" death match are usually only by fanboys who can't see that there must be more than a single "winner".

How about "there can be only two?" Hell, i'd settle for three if Sega decided to make a new console. I just want to see Microsoft crash and burn. Their console sucks in my opinion (especially in respects of the controller) and their marketing does as well. Especially the whole "Nintendo is just for kids" thing, (which i don't know if Microsoft has been officially pushing, but which has certainly been part of the whole unofficial fanboy thing) and the implications and/or outright statements on Microsoft's part that they're in 2nd and Nintendo is in 3rd by beind selective about what marketing data they use.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Osty]

Their console sucks in my opinion (especially in respects of the controller)

Care to explain why you think the XBox sucks? Is it just because it's from Microsoft? Also, if you're still complaining about the controller, you either have girly hands, or you haven't touched an XBox since November 2001. The Duke (original controller) is quite comfortable for anyone with average sized hands, though the best playing position is not the one you'll find at in-store kiosks with fixed controller positions. If that's your only experience, find a friend with an XBox and a Duke and try it again. The S controller is much better for people with smaller hands, and is still a great controller.

As far as I'm concerned, the XBox controller is the best out there right now. The fully analog triggers are perfect for racing games, and the shape and contours fit my hand like a glove. The PS2 controller is a bit too small and angular, and leads to cramping after an hour or two of gaming, and the Gamecube controller is just plain weird. It's great for games that don't need more than one button, but it's terrible for anything else (and it leads to stupid design decisions, like Metroid Prime's horrible control scheme).

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Anonymous Coward]

I have no problem with Metroid Prime's control scheme (in fact, I like it) or with GC controllers and control schemes in general. Maybe you're just in the group that doesn't like it because you've used other systems and prefer them...

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Babbster]

To continue this off-topic tangent just a little further, I agree that the big Xbox controller (the "Duke" - I've never heard that, good one) has a decent shape, but the face-button placement (particularly the black and white buttons) and shapes were awful. The S version, on the other hand, I consider my favorite console controller, despite my big hands.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[damiam]

The XBox doesn't "suck" per se, but it's oversized and doesn't have a lot of great games. Yes, that's subjective, I'm sure you could respond with a huge list of "great games" for the XBox, but, IMHO, there are very few good XBox exclusives (even Halo isn't XBox-exclusive any more). The XBox game library is outdone by Sony on quantity and by Nintendo on quality. That's why I, personally, wouldn't purchase an XBox (although I certainly wouldn't refuse one if offered).

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't think any of them make a profit on the console itself and at $99 I can guarantee you that Nintendo isn't. Even with slave labor and used parts it would cost more than $99 to make those units.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Kaboom13]

From your statements, you are obviously not a gamer or even have any knowledge of the gaming industry in general. Nintendo is in no way becoming a software only company like sega, as the GBA is the undisputed champion of the portable console arena, and it's outselling the major console. The Gamecube is in no way dead or dieing, is selling at a dirt cheap price and still making a profit (that is the point of this whole exercise). "Heavy use of assembly language" has never been the reason games were difficult to port. The reason it was dificult was because you had to deal with radically different architectures and capabilities, and had to use the device to it's fullest. The consoles today have a lot more in common then any previous generation of consoles, and are for the most part all based off a vague approximation of the PC architecture(more so for the Xbox and less for the Gamecube). Sony's PS2 is neither the cheapest nor the graphically best contender. It has the worst graphics at the highest price. It's only current strength is it's game library, which is being lost to ports. But in the end it doesn't matter, because despite the opinions of pundits who have no clue about the facts of the issue, the gaming market can support three different consoles at the same time.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[ameoba]

How do you connect "days of software being unportable due to heavy use of assembly language being a thing of the far past" to Sony being the big winner? The architecture of the PS2 and the planned successor are quite complicated and require a fair bit of low-level twiddling to get
any computing power of the device.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[drinkypoo]

The Xbox is my favorite console. Xbox 2 will have to be as hackable as Xbox in order to catch my interest, but I love the Xbox with a passion. The large size of the unit does not bother me, I am not planning to carry it on a backpacking trip into the Alps. Their controllers are also some of my favorite controllers - They have the best analog joysticks outside of the Japanese Dual Shock controller (the original with the joysticks with holes in the tops of them) and analog triggers, which Sega pioneered with their Saturn 3D Pad which came with Nights Into Dreams - One of the best controllers of all time. How they went from that to the Dreamcast's controller is beyond me.

But, I digress. Microsoft realizes that games are more fun to play with someone else, and that the someone else in question is often not inside your house. Therefore they included the ethernet interface in the system unlike Nintendo and Sony (though Sony is now shipping consoles with it) and pushed internet gaming with their Live service. Unlike Sega, who everyone knew would crap out, Microsoft is in for the long haul. Sega had been dying since releasing the Saturn and 32X, two platforms which are nearly the same thing yet still not compatible, for which game developers were expected to release games, and both of which were a nightmare to code for, especially the Saturn. Sony's PSX (not the new one, the old one) with its hardware transparency was just the final straw.

Okay, damn it, I'm digressing again. My point is that there is room for First Place, Second Place, and Nintendo. Those rules may change one day but the fact is that outside of Atari, which displayed a complete inability to make a console worth buying after the VCS, the best-loved video game company is Nintendo. They are now considered the underdog even though they sell more video game "stuff" than Microsoft due to their immensely successful handheld platform. (I wonder how long it will be before Microsoft tries their hand in this area. Windows CE gaming handheld, anyone? Yeah, sounds vile to me, too, but I know a lot of people who are very happy playing games on their PocketPCs.) So, they have both the underdog factor AND the nostalgia factor. They would have to REALLY bend their userbase over to lose that.

The Nintendo is just for kids thing has been around longer than Microsoft has been in the gaming market, so it's irrelevant if Microsoft has been pushing it. That would be like Nintendo pushing the "Microsoft is a bunch of unreliable bastards who fuck people over without a second thought" angle, except it would be true. Nonetheless I am not counting on Microsoft for anything except running Xbox live, which I have reasonable faith that they will do, because I am sure that they are making money on it. After all, they run free servers for many other games of theirs, and even some games which aren't theirs. The Zone is proof that Xbox Live is worthwhile, and that Microsoft can pull it off. Of course, at THIS point, Xbox Live is proof that Microsoft is capable of running Xbox Live.

The only thing I'm pissed about regarding the Xbox is Microsoft's decision to discontinue the large-format original US Xbox controller. I have very large hands (being something of a mutant - I'm 6'7" and built generally to scale; I'm somewhat chubby due to a mostly sedentary lifestyle, which serves to illustrate a point that I am not skinny or lanky) and the Controller S hurts my hands if I try to use it for too long. So, I had to run out and scrounge around to find a couple of used original Xbox controllers, which are only $5 cheaper than a new Controller S. However, being well made (as Microsoft hardware typically is - there are exceptions but in general their input devices are quite solid) they are as good as new. I now have two Controllers and two Controllers S.

It's okay to hate Microsoft. I do. But, I think the Xbox is a great console. It's got great DVD output, too. The hard drive is great, I didn't even need a memory card; Though I did en

Re:It will all come down to one system

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

The only thing I'm pissed about regarding the Xbox is Microsoft's decision to discontinue the large-format original US Xbox controller.

Goddamn, I agree. I am also 6'7" and I have a pair of Dukes and a pair of knock-off Controller-S', and I really wish I could have found another two Dukes instead. I find the controller really comfortable, but my flatmates girlfriend ( who is more used to the Gamecube controller ) finds it a bit unwieldy for button-mashing.

I enjoyed this post! Bravo!

YLFI

Re:It will all come down to one system

[Emil Brink]

[...]the Gamecube controller is just plain weird. It's great for games that don't need more than one button, but it's terrible for anything else (and it leads to stupid design decisions, like Metroid Prime's horrible control scheme).

This is just as weird-sounding to me, as a new GameCube owner and total fan of Metroid Prime, as I guess the OP's statement about the Xbox' pad is to you. Metroid Prime certainly needs more than one button; it uses every single one on the controller and there's no problem at least not for me. Sure, sometimes I press the wrong button, but I don't attribute that to any design flaw with the joypad, it's just me getting old. :)

The DualShock(2) still holds a special place in my heart though, I find it absolutely beautiful despite being a bit angular. It's symmetric, which to me is always a sign of being good. The Cube's joypad is far from symmetrical, but it still works, even in a complicated game like Metroid Prime. You learn.

Re:It will all come down to one system

[PainKilleR-CE]

To continue this off-topic tangent just a little further, I agree that the big Xbox controller (the "Duke" - I've never heard that, good one) has a decent shape, but the face-button placement (particularly the black and white buttons) and shapes were awful. The S version, on the other hand, I consider my favorite console controller, despite my big hands.

Oddly enough, I consider the face-button placement on the S controller to be a significant issue preventing me from ever using it, and besides the size is the primary reason I bought the larger controller (I bought my XBox a little over a year ago, so it came with the S controller). On the other hand, the larger controller is almost perfect, though the black and white buttons do feel somewhat out of place (though still better than the S, the main problem I have with the S is the start and select buttons).

Of course, since I've mostly been playing Crimson Skies and PGR2 lately, I haven't had to worry too much about the black and white buttons. I'd also add that the idea of colour-coding the buttons probably wasn't the best, as I can never remember which is which without looking down, though the PS2's shapes are no better.

eh game consoles these days suck anyway

[Anonymous Coward]

The last console systems that were any good were the Sega Genesis, the Neo-Geo and the Amiga CD32. The SNES was ok too (I just like the others more). The generations of consoles that followed basically focused on graphics instead of gameplay, and with the polygon fad (as opposed to nicely pixeled sprites), the graphics aren't that great anyway.

Vapor anyone?

[highwaytohell]

And if it isn't vapor, Sony, MS et al will make sure they burn it until it is vapor. And which games vendor is gonna make games for this console anyway. Are they honestly going to spend money porting games to this new console when they are certain to get exposure on PS2, XBOX or Gamecube. Did they seriously think they could compete with the endless money the majors provide. Sorry to say guys, a good console may take you far, but in the end, money talks...

Re:Vapor anyone?

[TechnoPops]

RTFA. There's no porting involved. This thing is meant to run regular PC games. The only thing that needs to be done is that DISCover (the company that wrote the "insert and play" software) has to write a script that automates game installation and runs the game when the disc is popped in.

Re:Vapor anyone?

[filledwithloathing]

The only thing that needs to be done is...

It may also be helpful if they had a box they could actually turn on.

Re:Vapor anyone?

[TechnoPops]

I, and I believe the parent poster, was referring to the ApeXtreme, which did have a running product at CES. As for the Phantom, someone else in this discussion has posted links to pictures of it supposedly runnning at a private party.

Re:Vapor anyone?

[filledwithloathing]

lol, I guess that's what happens when there's only pronouns in a thread.

Re:manjuice

[AssMonkeySexLover]

As well you should!

Mod this thread up...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's much more interesting and timely compared to the original topic!

The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[Dr Reducto]

It was shown in operation to any press who signed up for the demo. They had a party in a penthouse with the Phantom being demo'd.

pictures here:
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?showtopi c=2048

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[Kenja]

Unless they show the thing working in a public place and host images in a manor that does not require me to give my contact information to a seamingly disrequtable company they may as well not bother.

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[Jeff DeMaagd]

How about a confirmation from a source that isn't Infinium labs?

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[Dr Reducto]

It kind of was in public, since it was just set up and everyone was playing it. It was not really a demo in the true sense of the word. It was a par6ty hosted for press who wanted to see the phantom in action.

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[Dr Reducto]

Wait, here are the pics from the event without having to register: http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28758 http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28759 http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28760 http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28761 http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28762 http://www.phantom.net/forum/uploads/post-2-107377 0495.jpg http://www.phantom.net/forum/uploads/post-2-107377 0555.jpg

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[mrpuffypants]

For those that don't want to register for their forums I put them all up at my website: http://gallery.tomservo.net/phantom

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[Dr Reducto]

Wait, here are the pics from the event without having to register (With formatting this time):

http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&ty pe =post&id=28758
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php ?act=Attach&type =post&id=28759
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php ?act=Attach&type =post&id=28760
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php ?act=Attach&type =post&id=28761
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php ?act=Attach&type =post&id=28762
http://www.phantom.net/forum/uploa ds/post-2-107377 0495.jpg
http://www.phantom.net/forum/uploads/pos t-2-107377 0555.jpg

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[MBCook]

Well that gives me A TON more faith in the console. My faith is no longer at the "look, they're trying to sell and empty box to investors 'cause it's vaporware" level to the "it actually exists but I doubt it will make it to market or be successful" level.

That said, what's with the cable jack on the back labled "cable modem"? Does it have a built in cable modem? How are those of us who already have a cable modem supposed to use that feature? I thought you could only have one cable modem per house without buying extra IP address (at major prices)? Why no ethernet, or wifi, or something like that? Do I have to buy a USB ethernet adaptor just to take the console online?

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[mrpuffypants]

There is a jack on the back called 'ethernet' from what it looked like. What worries me about that, though, is that it's right next to the powersupply. Hope that its shielded with fucking lead or you could get some bad interference...

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[damiam]

As long as you're gonna double-post for formatting, you might as well get the links:

http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28758
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28759
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28760
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28761
http://forum.phantom.net/index.php?act=Attach&type =post&id=28762
http://www.phantom.net/forum/uploads/post-2-107377 0495.jpg
http://www.phantom.net/forum/uploads/post-2-107377 0555.jpg

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't be suprised if they had a Xbox or Playstation 2 under a desk somwhere with it rigged to look like it is really their system or even a VCR/DVD player.

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[MBCook]

Oh, oops. I only looked at the closeup of the left hand side where all the other stuff is (like the S-Video jack and such). I still wonder about the "cable modem" jack. Maybe it's normal TV for PVR type stuff?

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[filledwithloathing]

Was it "demo'd" by having it boot up and download a game online, or was it "demo'd" by convieniently already being setup. If it was the later how do you know it wasn't just a fake gui over a "normal" computer?

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[Anonymous Coward]

forget the pictures of the consoles.... who are the hot babes!?

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[harryk]

Thanks for the pictures, I was looking at them, specifically about the back of the console, to check out the connections, and saw this oddity.

There is an RF connector that is labeled Cable Modem, although I see no Ethernet port.

http://gallery.tomservo.net/phantom/phantom_scre en 002

Can anyone comment on this?

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[harryk]

disregard, the ethernet port was identified in a different picture.

Re:The Phantom WAS shown in operation

[mrpuffypants]

Look at this picture http://gallery.tomservo.net/phantom/phantom_screen 003 and you'll see that right next to the power supply is a jack that says "10/100 LAN" right under it.

RTFA much?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try reading the damn article before you pontificate about why it makes no sense. This is just a stripped down PC that will allow VIA to flog more kit. It's designed to just play PC games.

As mentioned in the article they already have support for some 600+ existing PC games.

It's fair to ask how much of a market is out there for people that would want to spend $400 plus the games to play PC games that don't already have a PC to play them on (and that aren't interested for whatever reason in one of the three consoles that you can get for $100-$200).

But you're completely off base to think this is a gambit to compete against Sony, Nintendo, or Xbox. They are competing with PC makers charging $1000-$2000 for a full fledged PC. Some people only use their PCs to play games anyways, I guess this might save them some money.

It depends on the usage

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a game console. We're talking TV resolutions here. Something like 720x480 for NTSC? Even mid-level cards will make games go fast. Besides, the level of eye candy can be tuned before release so that the chip will always run fast.

Re:Extreme Monkeys

[Anonymous Coward]

How did you manage to get those goatse.cx links on your user page???

This guy has three "comments" in his history to a story called "trolltalk" except the link to the "story" actually goes to goatse.cx. Check it out if you don't believe me (just mouse over the link, don't click). I don't know how he did it, but he did.

S3 Graphics chips

[UPAAntilles]

Really, they should just give up. I still have a P-166 with an S3 'Da Vinci' Virge, and for it's purposes it's worked great. However, they've been out of the graphics market for far too long...so unless they can grab some engineers from Nvidia or ATI, I don't see them rolling out anything better in a performance/cost ratio. If they had a lot of money, I could see them pulling back into serious competition, but it would require some serious investment and the understanding that there wouldn't be much payback. Then again, that's on eof the reasons the ApeXtreme is so cheap, the POS graphics card (and processor...and sound...etc etc). They must be able to churn out their components really cheaply for the entire setup to be $399. (especially because it's a PC game running setup, so no licensing profits, the entire profit is from the console sale itself which is counter-intuitive in that market) I don't think it's going to last, and on their next tax filing, the ApeXtreme development is going to be labeled 'capital loss' or something to that effect.

Re:S3 Graphics chips

[Skuld-Chan]

I don't get this - I had a S3 Savage and for the most part it was a great video card. It compared rather well to the TNT it was up against. Plus S3TC made Unreal look really cool.

Their most recent video card reaches a good midpoint in modern video card benchmarks > http://www6.tomshardware.com/graphic/20031229/vga- charts-03.html

Re:S3 Graphics chips

[filledwithloathing]

I still have a ... S3 'Da Vinci' Virge, and for it's purposes it's worked great.

I take it that one of the purposes that you use that Virge for is not 3d acceleration. The Virge's hardware acceleration was so poorly performing that most games actually ran faster in software mode. It was the worlds first "3D Decelerator", and actually slowed down the computers it was in. You'd probably be amazed at the difference if you scrounged up an old Voodoo I and stuck it in that machine.

Re:S3 Graphics chips

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you sure it was the first decelerator? I've got an ATI Rage IIC AGP 8meg that would seem to hold that title :)

-- vranash

Re:S3 Graphics chips

[DrMrLordX]

Actually, I think the first "3d decelerator" was that funky 3d function on some of the old Matrox Millenium/Millenium II cards. As I recall, Descent II supported it, er, I think anyway. It was rather pointless.

Re:S3 Graphics chips

[Billly Gates]

Great!

Hell, run glquake or tombraider on that and tell me how great it is?

I upgraded to a vodoo1 and glquake was fluid and I could run Theif:the dark project and tombraider fun afterwards.

Re:S3 Graphics chips

[filledwithloathing]

Those features were really designed for CAD programs. They were faster than software mode, which the Virge was not.

Re:S3 Graphics chips

[DrMrLordX]

Really? I heard the opposite but . . . not worth starting an argument over it. Maybe it was due to poor implementation of support for it in Descent 2.

How Xtreme are we talking?

[DrLZRDMN]

Very. Assuming that Xtreme means overhyped, pointless, and stupid.

Ape X-Treme?

[Jonboy X]

Sweet! Finally, the Olympics, the circus and the X Games come together for the most exciting simian sporting event ever! I can hardly wait!

Oh, wait...

Re:Ape X-Treme?

[Pike65]

Yeah, how did no-one notice what a craptacular name it is? Surely someone must have stopped at some point and thought "Woah! It looks like we're trying to market snow-boarding simians over here . . ."

Everytime I see it I get visions of Monkey Kombat.

Oop Ack Chee indeed.

Re:Ape X-Treme?

[iabervon]

All I can say is, if it doesn't come with a Donkey Kong game, it's not right.

Apex makes pretty good equipment.

[John_Booty]

Kind of a tangent, but I've had good experiences with Apex equipment. I've had a few Apex DVD players, I have an Apex TV, and my girlfriend has an Apex TV as well. All for great prices.

I'm not affiliated with them in any way, but I just wanted to say that they make some quality stuff in my experience- a lot of people might be misled by their low prices. They're not Aiwa... their stuff seems to hold up well. :P

Re:Apex makes pretty good equipment.

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I couldn't agree.

Heck, I had to drill some ventillation holes into my sister's Ape-X to get it working right again. Now, thankfully, it is working more often than not but sometimes the spindle motor doesn't start right.

I did buy their original AD-600 too. It had inconsistent playback performance, wildly inaccurate component jacks and even crashed in the sort time I owned it.

I've never had these sorts of problems with any of my other home electronics.

Re:Apex makes pretty good equipment.

[John_Booty]

There were several that had their sound de-synched on my original AD-600. However, that sort of thing was fairly common on a lot of DVD players form all brands at the time, since DVD authoring and playback technology weren't quite mature yet... I don't think the AD-600's were any worse than any other DVD solution at the time.

Since then I've owned two different models of Apex players with zero problems. Not doubting your experiences with them; just adding my two cents. :)

Re:Apex makes pretty good equipment.

[drinkypoo]

I owned an AD600A and currently own an AD3201. The AD600A was typical of bargain DVD players of the time. It had excellent high-quality S-Video output, and was a great VCD/SVCD player, and a very responsive DVD player, in that the menu speed was fantastic. This is of course typical of DVD players which depend heavily on the CPU, and thus have a lot of it - because they are made entirely of commodity hardware. Eventually, the DVD-ROM in it got a little flaky, and I sold it to someone more ambitious than I was, who was willing to replace the drive unit. Now, the same thing is happening to my AD3201. This device is flash upgradable, but in spite of that they have released only one update. I got two AD3201s, and the first one crashed during the flash update. Using the very same CD, I successfully flash updated another unit. I forget what the one update added. Unfortunately, it didn't fix the fact that when you changed titles or layers, the word PLAY appears in the upper right, and it didn't change the general choking that the unit does between layers, or in fact between titles. Also, between even compliant discs of either VCD or SVCD, the unit must usually (but not always) be power cycled, or playback will not work properly. It is, in fact, a raging piece of crap which I wish I'd never purchased. I bought it because it had a good set of outputs.

Since then I have picked up a Panasonic DVD-S80S at Wal-Mart for $80. It's a low profile unit, with basically all the outputs (component, composite, S-Video, digital and optical coaxial) and support for CD, CDR, CDRW, DVD-R, DVD-RW, VCD, SVCD, XVCD, XSVCD, as well as MP3 and JPEG on ISO CD/CDR/CDRW. Supposedly some people have got ISO on DVD-R[W] with MP3 or JPEG to work, but I haven't tried that. It's a dramatically better player in every way except multiregion support and the ability to disable macrovision, both of which are completely irrelevant to me because I own a DVD-RW. I can burn regionless (or region 1) and demacrovision'd copies of my DVDs as permitted by law. Of course, the software is supposed to be illegal, but it's not like it's not readily available. Those features are the only reason to buy shitty second-string DVD players such as those from Apex, Raite, and Sampo.

Re:Apex makes pretty good equipment.

[Anonymous Coward]

By the way, if you haven't heard Apex is the leading DVD player manufacturer in North America, and is one of the companies responible for making DVD players so common and mainstream today.

This Apextreme box will make a great multimedia and tinkering box, like an xbox(who honestly believes that has a good software library? I can count the good titles on one hand), but without the modchip crap. Gotta love non-proprietary filesystems.

So basically an xbox without 'The Lameness of X'.

Re:Apex makes pretty good equipment.

[drinkypoo]

But also without the NVidia graphics core. Ooh, Deltachrome! Shiny! To be followed by OmegaChrome! It is nice that it will come with a 40GB disk, that's a significant plus. However, since it's going to have a non-superscalar VIA CPU, it's going to need that 1.4GHz just to match up with the P3 733 in the Xbox.

In other words, I have serious doubts about it as a gaming platform. As a media center, it could be all right, but it's made by Apex, so the build quality will probably be asstastic and it is safe to assume that every component will be the cheapest possible.

Apex might lead sales in the US, but that's only because people are willing to buy their buggy cheap crap; I've bought two of 'em, but I'll never buy another one. I might be persuaded to buy one of these, but I'll have to wait a few months and see how many of them fail before I make a call there. This would be a nice chance for Apex to turn around their rep, maybe, but I (obviously) have my doubts.

Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[Debian Troll's Best]

While some posters here see nothing more than a modestly-powered games console, complaining that it is incapable of pumping out >300fps in Daikatana, others see any opportunity for something far more important. Microsoft (to its credit) is bringing internet gaming to the masses with its Xbox Live! subscription service. However, there is a growing community backlash over what is largely perceived to be an overpriced and underfeatured service. Who wants to pay $19.99/month just to download some extra spell updates to Harry Potter III or to patch bugs in Duke Nukem Forever? The emergence of an open PC hardware console now makes it possible to do something which is simply not possible with an Xbox-type console: a Linux-based console system, with an apt-get based Linux Live! type subscription service...for free!

Let me explain. Many great games are being ported to Linux, and blockbusters are being announced on a practically weekly basis. With a GNU/Debian Linux based gaming system, all the required infrastructure for grabbing game updates and patches would be in place with apt-get. Of course, most consoles aren't going to be equipped with a keyboard, but it is easy to imagine something like dselect being extended with an SVGAlib written wrapper that would allow an inexperienced games console user to 'type' in using an onscreen keyboard commands like 'apt-get update nethack', or 'apt-get install xbill'. Of course access charges to such a service would be completely free. This could be the thing that really blows Microsoft and Xbox Live! out of the water.

What I want to know is...has anyone tried a Linux-based games console before? Just take some commodity hardware, package Linux, and let the community do the rest? If not, it's high time. I think it would be a massive success. If only VA Linux was still in the Linux hardware game, they could potentially manufacture these boxes and provide support too.

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, someone tried actually, it was called the Indrema and you can find all kinds of back story just typing "Indrema" in the search box down there at the bottom of slashdot.

-Joshua

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[tepples]

Who wants to pay $19.99/month just to download some extra spell updates to Harry Potter III or to patch bugs in Duke Nukem Forever? The emergence of an open PC hardware console now makes it possible to do something which is simply not possible with an Xbox-type console: a Linux-based console system, with an apt-get based Linux Live! type subscription service...for free!

So who's going to buy hardware and lease bandwidth to run the server?

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[Anonymous Coward]

So who's going to buy hardware and lease bandwidth to run the server?

Who pays for the Debian server hardware and bandwidth now? It's all free to the end user, and the proposed apt-get based gaming system wouldn't be any different I suppose.

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[Osty]

However, there is a growing community backlash over what is largely perceived to be an overpriced and underfeatured service. Who wants to pay $19.99/month just to download some extra spell updates to Harry Potter III or to patch bugs in Duke Nukem Forever?

I wish I learned how to do math where you did, so I could also divide $50 (cost of XBox Live subscription per year) by 12 (number of months in a year) and get $20.

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[Anonymous Coward]

Many great games are being ported to Linux, and blockbusters are being announced on a practically weekly basis.

Uh-huh, it must be nice in your world, cause I don't know what you're talking about.

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[bogie]

" Microsoft (to its credit) is bringing internet gaming to the masses with its Xbox Live!"

??? You can't be serious. I'm all for giving due credit, but MS doesn't get credit for this one.

Maybe give Microsoft credit for bringing a good online gaming experience to Xbox owners, but the masses have already been online gaming for years now. Also considering how early MS is into their service it can hardly be declared a complete success. They are not even the first console maker to have a bunch of gamers online. The Dreamcast gets credit for that.

The same people who play Xbox live have been playing online for years now. Its questionable if people who aren't already into online gaming are even using Xbox Live. So if your going to be giving credit maybe give credit to Sega or the true pioneers of gaming for the "masses" Epic and ID.

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[damiam]

Holy shit. That was nice. +5 Interesting on a post that mentions a groundbreaking Linux console running dselect, nethack, and xbill. I salute you.

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[haggar]

What I want to know is...has anyone tried a Linux-based games console before?

Yes, Indrema, and the company went bust.

Re:Debian based ApeXtreme to take on Xbox Live!

[avida]

Why would you think VA Linux could do a good job of creating a console? They couldn't make Linux servers for a living and those have higher profit margins than consoles.

Re:Extreme Monkeys

[Anonymous Coward]

http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=20721
http:// slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=31337

Also, http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?op=user_created_in dex
(no space in index)

Phantom sounds like the right name for this box.

[b0r0din]

Let's see, it's vaporware except for a big, fairly ugly box which has never been turned on, it's sponsored by a guy whose known for getting capital for loser projects, it's competing against three other boxes which are still going strong in sales...maybe the Phantom is exactly what it claims to be...nothing. A ghost box.

Besides, Sony will probably have a working prototype of PS3 before it's even released, by which time it'll have no chance, just like Dreamcast.

Who thought this one up?

[AdamHaun]

So my first thought was "Forget the hardware, where are the games?". Turns out the ApeXtreme is designed to run PC games via special "installer scripts". In other words, it's just like buying a PC to play games...only you don't get any of the benefits of actually owning a PC.

Riiiight.

The way the console world works is that you buy one piece of hardware and get 3-5 years of games out of it. If you keep the console around, you can still play those games many years later(raise your hand if you still have an NES/C64/etc). You never have to deal with patches, hardware upgrades, incompatibility, or any of the other woes of the PC. The downside is that you have a limited feature set and no option to upgrade the hardware and remain on the same platform. Since the hardware is fixed, the life and death of the various consoles are determined solely by the choice of games.

Anyone who tells you that hardware is anything more than a tertiary concern in the console market does not know what they are talking about

Consider, for instance, the success of the NES against the Sega Genesis, or the utter failure of the Atari Jaguar and countless others like it. Sony took control of the console market by being easier for third party licensees to work with than Nintendo or Sega.

Contrast this with the PC game market, in which the hardware is king. PC gaming web sites spend lots of time talking about hardware, and game developers write games so that future hardware will be able to take full advantage of them. Games themselves are generally of lower quality upon release than their console brethren, and it's not uncommon for it to take many patches to iron out all the problems. The upside of this is that patches will often improve the game as well as fix bugs.

Lower quality combined with the ever-increasing cost of hardware upgrades have caused the game industry to decline somewhat in the past few years. Successful PC games will likely have a console port, but the reverse is less often true.

Into this scenario comes VIA, proposing to combine the worst aspects of a console(non-upgradability, limited functionality) with the worst aspects of the PC game market(low quality, patches, quick obsolescence). Couple this with the fact that for the price of this console you can upgrade your CPU and video card anyway, and I can't see this as anything other than a disaster waiting to happen. There is absolutely no reason to buy this system.

[1] When I say "PC game market", I mean games like Warcraft and Half-Life, not Snood and its ilk.

Re:Who thought this one up?

[Blakey Rat]

The Genesis is better considered as competing with the Super Nintendo. And it did really well, in fact... I still have my Genesis with tons of game, and I love it.

Re:Who thought this one up?

[W2k]

Your UID is a bit shorter than mine, but I've got to respond because you're just so full of shit.

[On a console], you never have to deal with patches, hardware upgrades, incompatibility, or any of the other woes of the PC.

You _do_ have to deal with hardware upgrades (often ugly ones) and incompatibility. Talk to anyone who tried playing import games on their PlayStation. Doing so often requires chipping, a procedure which can be (though just like upgrading the hardware on a PC, doesn't have to be) very tricky to perform.

You also need to upgrade your hardware in the more traditional sense, because even consoles eventually get too old - ask any SNES owner. Except with a console, you can't really "upgrade"; Upgrading the hardware on a console means throwing it out and buying a new one! And even then you can't be sure it plays all the games that ran on the previous one, because there are incompatibilities beween manufacturers; the Xbox obviously won't play SNES games, et cetera. Sure, you can keep the old console around (until it breaks - and when it does, you generally can't just swap out the faulty component like on a PC), but then you either need some sort of switch or you need to poke the wires behind the TV every time you want to use the older one (if you don't have multiple sets). My 2003 PC can still play games that were released in the early 90's for completely different hardware, and doing so requires no special reconfiguration between games.

Games themselves are generally of lower quality upon release than their console brethren, and it's not uncommon for it to take many patches to iron out all the problems.

This greatly depends on how you define quality regarding games. If you are talking bugs per line of code, yes, PC games may be buggier overall, but there are millions more PC games than there are console games for any single console. Because it's so easy to develop and release PC games, there are a lot of junk games out there. But on the PC, bugs can always be fixed post-release. On a console, they can't. This is clearly a huge advantage for PC's, and if it leads to (some) games being a bit buggier to start with, that's fine. Most if not all such games are eventually fixed and noone forces you to buy those games before they are. And on PC, you don't need to waste your money, there are always ways to try before you buy (not that console games aren't warezed, too).

Looking at aspects other than bugginess I'd argue that PC games are generally of a higher quality than console ones. PC games generally offer more ways to customize the game, support for more and different input devices (you can configure a keybd+mouse in many more ways than you can configure a simple joypad). Oh, and not to forget, modifications to the games themselves - I don't think I need to tell you how PC's sweep the floor with consoles in that regard.

Successful PC games will likely have a console port, but the reverse is less often true.

Got any facts to back this up? To me it seems too many shitty console games (like Deus Ex 2) end up on PC. The reverse is also true, PC games are released for consoles because the manufacturers want to make more money. Of course, there are also great games (like GTA: Vice City) that are a joy to play on either system.

Into this scenario comes VIA, proposing to combine the worst aspects of a console(non-upgradability, limited functionality)

If you had RTFA'ed, you'd know that this console is in fact NOT impossible to upgrade. They even included an empty DIMM slot on the motherboard for pete's sake! And as far as limited functionality goes, since the damn thing runs Windows XP Embedded, you can probably just connect a mouse and keyboard and have a low-end PC to play with. It should be able to run most apps compatible with WinXP, possibly given some hacks to remove the glossy shell they have no doubt installed over WinXP's default interface.

In conclusion, there is no reas

Re:Who thought this one up?

[AdamHaun]

You _do_ have to deal with hardware upgrades (often ugly ones) and incompatibility. Talk to anyone who tried playing import games on their PlayStation. Doing so often requires chipping, a procedure which can be (though just like upgrading the hardware on a PC, doesn't have to be) very tricky to perform.

I wouldn't consider chipping to be a standard hardware upgrade. It's more like modifying the hardware itself(eg Athlon XP -> MP).

You also need to upgrade your hardware in the more traditional sense, because even consoles eventually get too old - ask any SNES owner.

Okay, I guess buying a new console technically counts as a hardware upgrade. But at the very least it's a benchmark-free upgrade. :)

Sure, you can keep the old console around (until it breaks - and when it does, you generally can't just swap out the faulty component like on a PC),

You can get a new system from even the previous generation for less than the cost of a minor PC component.

but then you either need some sort of switch or you need to poke the wires behind the TV every time you want to use the older one (if you don't have multiple sets).

Passthrough RF adaptors were common on consoles up until the time TVs with multiple inputs became common. You can still go out and buy them if it's that big of an issue.

My 2003 PC can still play games that were released in the early 90's for completely different hardware, and doing so requires no special reconfiguration between games.

Tried playing an old DOS game recently? Have fun getting sound.

Not being able to play old games on the same system is indeed a disadvantage of consoles, but it looks like backwards compatibility is starting to take hold. Here's hoping that it sticks around.

This greatly depends on how you define quality regarding games. If you are talking bugs per line of code, yes, PC games may be buggier overall, but there are millions more PC games than there are console games for any single console. Because it's so easy to develop and release PC games, there are a lot of junk games out there. But on the PC, bugs can always be fixed post-release. On a console, they can't. This is clearly a huge advantage for PC's, and if it leads to (some) games being a bit buggier to start with, that's fine. Most if not all such games are eventually fixed and noone forces you to buy those games before they are. And on PC, you don't need to waste your money, there are always ways to try before you buy (not that console games aren't warezed, too).

I've played far more console games in the past few years that I'd be willing to spend $50 on than PC games. Maybe that's just an artifact of my choice of games, but it's also a general impression I get from reading reviews and such.

On the topic of bugginess, console games don't need patches because it is extremely rare to find any but the most minor bugs in a console game. It's amazing how sturdy code can get when you code for one platform and don't get any second chances.

Looking at aspects other than bugginess I'd argue that PC games are generally of a higher quality than console ones. PC games generally offer more ways to customize the game, support for more and different input devices (you can configure a keybd+mouse in many more ways than you can configure a simple joypad).

Okay, this is something important that I failed to mention. Thank you for pointing it out.

Oh, and not to forget, modifications to the games themselves - I don't think I need to tell you how PC's sweep the floor with consoles in that regard.

I wish PCs would sweet the floor *more* in that regard, seeing as how the most popular mod on the net is *still* fucking Counterstrike.

If you had RTFA'ed, you'd know that this console is in fact NOT impossible to upgrade. They even included an empty DIMM slot on the motherboard for pete's sake! And as far as limited funct

Re:Who thought this one up?

[fondue]

"Consider, for instance, the success of the NES against the Sega Genesis"

Pardon? The Mega Drive/Genesis made the NES virtually obsolete within a year of release.

The point of sticking a PC under the TV isn't about raw performance, it's about having a common platform. Would you deny that with generation the available console platforms have become similar? It's currently mooted that at least two of the three machines in the next generation will use the same CPU.

VIA's system is upgradeable. It's a PC. It would probably work out a shit of a lot cheaper, and at the very least more convenient, than building a second game-capable PC. Same reasons people mod Xboxes - it's already there, and plays movies, emulators and games.

Not having to drag my desk-bound PC into the living room is reason one for me to buy this system. (Provided there are enough suitable games to play on it.)

XTREME marketing

[Saeger]

Why are they still using the word "Xtreme"? I thought that gimmick was worn out by now because of overuse by the marketing bandwagon.

I hear that word and I almost want to punch somebody.

--

Wouldn't be so bad

[SHEENmaster]

A few hundred bucks to play Zelda: Link's Awakening, the original b&w gameboy version from '93, on UNIX93. It would only cost you a few hundred for software, plus hardware costs. You would give SCO the right to audit your gameboy whenever they chose, and agree never to sue them for exthortion. Furthermore, you would agree that they own the rights to your house, your car, your first born, and your eternal soul.

But the game, man. The game would make it all worth it.

PS3, XBox Next, ...

[KrackHouse]

ApeXtreme may not have the best specs but a reliable source inside Via told me that the CromagnonXtreme and NeandertalXtreme will have better processors. Those will be followed of course by the 64 bit HomoErectusXtreme.

Missed the point

[EpsCylonB]

By the looks of it, the S3 DeltaChrome GPU is horribly incapable of making VIA/Apex a formidable gaming console.

It quite obviously isn't supposed to be a formidable gaming console. It's a fancy dvd player with some extra gaming functionality.

The most interesting thing in the article is this...

Any manufacturer could buy the VIA motherboard, chipset, GPU and CPU that went into the ApeXtreme and design their own solution. If you aren't happy with the way the ApeXtreme was done the solution is simple - make your own. VIA is doing their best to make that challenge as easy as possible for manufacturers, with a fairly large name like Apex taking the first steps we'd hope that other manufacturers will follow - for VIA's sake at least.

When MS decided to create a console based on a PC lots of people predicted that it might force all gaming platforms to coverge (a little bit like how people thought the 3DO would become the VHS of consoles). But this plan to effectively turn a vanilla PC into living room multimedia machine may actually acheive that kind of convergance. I guess it all depends on whether hardware manafacturers see any profit in it.

BOOO!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad, I really wanted to hear you fairweather "fans" booing your team (again). Anyway Carolina is going to give you the smackdown of the season and it will be fun to watchc

Re:Let's talk about the NFL playoffs

[Anonymous Coward]

I dont care, so long as the Eagles LOSE.

And Peyton Manning, the great white hope, can try to prove that white men can still play

A box? Anyone check inside?

[Bendebecker]

According to the article: "Infinium Labs' proposed console, the Phantom, has made a showing at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas as announced by the company earlier this week, but only in the form of a box which was not switched on."

Does this remind anyone else of the "three wheeled car" scam they had on unsolved mysteries once... you know the one where they had a big factory and claimed to be making three wheeled cars and had a whole mess of employees and looked completey legit and impressive but when the investigators finally raided the place, all the company had to show for it was an empty factory with a ripped up car with two by fours holding a third wheel on the back. Could the 'phantom' console be the same - a nice looking box that looked nice and legit until you realize for all you know it could just be a nice looking plastic box with a brick sitting inside it to give it weight? Did anyone actually open up the console to check? Is it really a prototype of some sort? Or is the 'phantom' console nothing but a phantom?

Re:A box? Anyone check inside?

[Stormwatch]

Actually, a three-wheel car did exist - R. Buckminster Fuller's Dymaxion - although it was never mass-marketed. [http://www.retrofuture.com/bucky.htm]

Re:A box? Anyone check inside?

[Anonymous Coward]

3 wheeled cars?? Old hat in the UK. http://www.3wheelers.com/robin.html

Re:A box? Anyone check inside?

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you read the article? They had the device connected to a tv and playing games. geez. There were screenshots on the anand article.

$299 for an S3 POS??

[Tuxinatorium]

S3's latest line of GPU's is utter crap by comparison to anything from ATI or Nvidia, even at similar prices. The flagship is like a geforce 2 Ti but less stable. It won't even run a lot of directX 8.1 games. Geez, by now the radeon 9600 GPU chip is cheap to make and under $40 wholesale. Why didn't they use that to give their $300 console some good performance?

Pronunciation?

[DeathPenguin]

I can't seem to say the name out loud without it sounding like "Ape Extreme."

I'm guessing that English is not the native tongue of the guy who named this thing.

Re:Pronunciation?

[cfuse]

I can't seem to say the name out loud without it sounding like "Ape Extreme."

I'm guessing that English is not the native tongue of the guy who named this thing.

Just be thankful that it isn't "Super Lucky Golden Wonder Swan"

I'm reminded of the first sneak peaks of the N64.

[Kenja]

I recall going to an E3 show where Nintindo was showing off what they claimed was the N64. Problem was that the so called N64 boxes where not even plugged into anything and all the graphics on the screen where being run from a series of SGI reality engines.

huh?

[minus_273]

what is this about extreme apes?

Re:Join the Simoniker Fan Club!

[Anonymous Coward]

I would rather start a Timmay! fan club. He is my favorite slashdot editor.

Breakdown of $20/mo

[tepples]

That's $4.17 per month for the Xbox Live subscription and $15.83 per month difference between the monthly price of dial-up and the monthly price of the cable or DSL connection that Xbox Live requires.

Re:Breakdown of $20/mo

[Osty]

I don't know about you, but I use my broadband connection for much more than just XBox Live. While you may enjoy playing online games via a dialup connection, you simply cannot have a rich gameplay experience doing so (witness the number of PS2 online titles that are broadband-only, including the most popular SOCOM series). I would have broadband even if I didn't have an XBox or XBox Live, and so it is not a contributing cost to XBox Live.

XBox Live and other broadband-only online gaming ventures may push broadband acceptance, which is a good thing, and I back it 100%, but even if someone purchased a broadband connection initially for XBox Live, I believe that said person will find more uses for that connection.

Re:Breakdown of $20/mo

[bugbread]

If you're going to do your math like THAT, how about $4.17 per month for the XBox Live subscription, $5 a month for electricity, $15.83 for broadband, $10 or so for depreciation, $0.50 for cost of connection cables (monster cable cost / 24 months or so expected use), $20 or so for the TV ($480 divided over 2 years)...Why, I wouldn't be surprised if XBox Live cost over $100 a month! That's $1,200 per year!! Highway robbery!

Re:Breakdown of $20/mo

[tepples]

I'm talking about for families that were formerly perfectly happy with dial-up web access and with same-room multiplayer. This gap was pretty close to my own situation at one time.

Re:Breakdown of $20/mo

[bugbread]

Understood, but I'd warrant that was a pretty small group to begin with. You could just as likely take my group into account: people who live in an area where local phone calls are not free, so broadband is cheaper than dialup.

They only need to make a profit!

[xtermin8]

They don't need to compete with the big boys. Via can just get the table scraps from PC market and be fine. Maybe they won't have longevity in the game console market, but many /.er seem to think they need to become the next Nintendo.

Re:Phantom sounds like the right name for this box

[ameoba]

Too bad the Dreamcast was quite successful and hit the market well before the PS2 started shipping. While it could've been more successful if not for the FUD campaign coming out of Sony, it wasn't a complete flop.

The worst thing about the Dreamcast market is that, after the PS2 shipped, it almost completely dried up, virtually overnight.

Re:Join the Simoniker Fan Club!

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, before I join, I need to know - is it as good as being fucked in the ass by a gay nigger with a big cock?

Don't Dismiss Apex Too Quickly...

[pdaoust007]

According to this article Apex already beat Sony on their own turf by selling more DVD players in the US than any other manufacturer.

Personaly, I think the Apextreme box would make a fine HTPC (like a frontend to MythTV).

Why?

[frovingslosh]

Why are we still talking about this turkey? It will be overpriced (I've seen numbers ranging from $299 to $399) and undersupported. And on top of everything else it runs a MS OS!!! Hell, Bill Gates will likely make more on each of these sold then he looses on every Xbox sold, but he's certainly be the only one making money on it. A few hackers will snarf one up (you know who you are, you buy one of everything). But all said and done, a PC will be a better choice for hackers, and a Sony or that even that greeen thing will be better supported for most gamers. This thing will be still born and not well supported. In less than a year it will be on the discount shelves. It likely will take Apex down with it (they don't have the bankroll to feed a turkey like MS does) unless they realize the problem and pull the plug early. And I'm expecting they might even pull that plug before the ill-fated release.

Heck, this isn't even the only phantom Windows PC based game system that we're being told is on the way. The only question I have in my mind is which one will be pulled first.

I'm going to spell-nazi a bit here...

[Stormwatch]

It's 3DO, not 3D0. (letter O, not number zero)

Interesting sales channel possability?

[Chuck Chunder]

Given that:

1. Competing directly in the retail market against Sony and MS would be difficult in any case.
2. Phantom relys on content delivery over the network rather than on disks. (Why would any games store want to sell one of these things, they'd get no customers coming in to buy more games like they do with XBox or PS?)

It would make a lot of sense for them to partner with cable companies and the option of an inbuild cable modem could make it an attractive "drop in" package to some.

O is not as leet as 0.

[jasonhamilton]

I'm trying to give it some dignity in death, that it never had in life. By converting the O to a zero, I then make it slightly more leet.

Re:O is not as leet as 0.

[Afrosheen]

I think it's just representative of the total number of times you had fun playing one. If, in fact, you ever did play one.

Kinda like that elusive Atari Jaguar.

OMG

[MarkVVV]

simian pr0n?! YOU PERVERTS!

It wasn't just the N64

[Sycraft-fu]

The biggest thing was adult targeted games. Nintendo really had always been a kids platform. That's not to say the games weren't played by adults (shit I still play orignal Nintendo games) just that the focus really was on kids. They were designed with that audience in mind primarly. Nintendo also placed limitations on their platforms that went long with that such as no blood in Mortal Kombat. Even other companies like Sega still had a heave kid basis in marketing.

This all seemed to make sense. Videogames were primarly seen as a kids thing. Adults didn't play them, by and large. Well Sony decided that adults would like to play games, and released lots of adult target titles. Funny thing, turns out adults have more money than kids and hence can spend more on games.

Re:It wasn't just the N64

[Kaboom13]

You're almost right, Nintendo is for kids and people who play games to have fun, not to determine their dick size.

Re:It wasn't just the N64

[Sycraft-fu]

So it's not ok to have fun playing adult oriented games? Look dipstick, I'm not talking about adult games as in sexual content, i'm talking about games pitched to adults. Let's try some examples in other media to maybe help you get an idea of what I mean:

A TV show like Law and Order. Law and Order is a hugely successful show (as is apparant by them running it all the time on every channel) but try and get your average 6 year old to watch it. They'll be bored in 5 minutes with most episodes.

A movie like Boondock Saints. A kid might think that the violence in Boondock's is cool, but I doubt they get the humour or much in the way of the message of the movie. They and their friends are not going to discuss the moral implications.

These are both examples of adult oriented entertainment. They were designed with an adult audience in mind. Compare this to something like Aladin, which clearly had a young audience in mind.

Now this doesn't mean that adults don't enjoy kid-oriented entertainment or that some kids don't enjoy adult oriented entertainment, or even that there's a hard line between the two. However it is quite clear that you can design something with different audiences in mind, and which one you choose will affect the demographic that buys your product.

Games have an even wider range since there is not only the topic and content to consider, but the mechanics and difficulty. Some games are simply too difficult for most kids. One I clearly remember was Master of Orion 2. When it first came out I decided to try it, and hated it. I just couldn't figure the damn thing out. Too complecated. A few years later I tried it again and loved it, still play it to this day. Other games are the opposite, I found them challenging when I first played them as a kid and find them trivial now.

So look, it's not bad that game companies are relasing games targeted to adults. Don't get in a huff because your chosen console provider didn't tend to go for that. Nintendo had always been a kid oriented platform, with mainly kid titles. Sony went witha more adult orient platform. It was a real winner. Doesn't mean there's no market for kid games, as is obvious from the ample supply, or that adults don't enjoy playing them.

However there are those of us that want games that present something different, things that most kids won't enjoy. There's nothing wrong with that and doesn't mean we are playing games to "determine our dick size", it just means we choose to be entertained in a different way or on a different level.

Re:It wasn't just the N64

[PainKilleR-CE]

This all seemed to make sense. Videogames were primarly seen as a kids thing. Adults didn't play them, by and large. Well Sony decided that adults would like to play games, and released lots of adult target titles. Funny thing, turns out adults have more money than kids and hence can spend more on games.

This is what people widely seem to believe, but it's only partially right. If you look at Sony's strategy with the PS1, you'll see that they weren't targeting adults just for the sake of targeting adults, or even by going for mature-rated games. They were going strictly after Nintendo's original fanbase, those that played the NES and maybe the SNES. Those people that played the original NES as kids were generally born between the mid-70s and early-80s, meaning that they were teenagers or in their early 20s when the PS1 came out. In order to appeal to NES gamers, they went after the companies (other than Nintendo) that made the games kids played on the NES. This meant Capcom, Konami, Square, (Enix in Japan) and many others that did 3rd party games for Nintendo. It meant Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, Castlevania, and any title that did really well on the NES that wasn't made by Nintendo themselves. It also meant targeting the arcade developers, because the kids that played NES games were playing in the arcades at the time, thereby targeting Sega's 3rd party developers as well (because Sega was always strong in the arcades and arcade ports on their consoles).

Additionally, they went with a strong push towards 3D games only, and Nintendo, at the time, did not have a 3D console, as the N64 came out a few years after the PS1. Also, although Nintendo had loosened up on their content restrictions after the mess with Mortal Kombat, many of the 3rd parties were still concerned about those restrictions, so they had games on the design boards that weren't slated for a Nintendo console for this reason. Nintendo did have a handful of mature games on the SNES, and another handful on the N64, but Sony had already signed a number of exclusive contracts with many of these 3rd parties for titles that those 3rd parties had thought wouldn't get by Nintendo's censors, or wouldn't have worked on a Nintendo console at the time. Between pulling ahead by releasing a "32-bit" console in the middle of the 16-bit generation (and perhaps Nintendo rode the 16-bit generation a bit long when they skipped to "64-bit"), pushing for 3D graphics the SNES couldn't handle, and signing exclusivity deals with companies that were worried about censors, or moving towards 3D themselves, or worried about cartridge limitations (Square, specifically), Sony sucked up a lot of the 3rd parties that were Nintendo's bread & butter. By making their console a valid method for easy arcade ports, they also sucked up a lot of Sega's 3rd parties, pulling in Namco's Tekken and Soul Blade/Edge lines, for example.

Once they had all of this in place they also pushed the "games for adults" angle, knowing full well that the age group they were going for in Nintendo's original NES market was also the group most concerned with perceptions, as most 13-21 year-olds tend to be. What they knew when they started, though, was that not only was this age group the group that originally played the NES, but they were also the group with the largest expendable income. If the games targeted them well, they could pull in a larger audience than the NES had, and that's exactly what happened. The PS1 opened a larger market to games by aiming at this age group's insecurities as well as offernig games that were familiar to those that had played games as kids. Most of Nintendo's 3rd parties didn't really change their games beyond the shift to 3D and some gameplay enhancements, and neither did Nintendo. It was simply that most of the "adult-oriented" games were given an "edge" by the more realistic graphics capabilities, and a willingness by both developers and the console's developer to push the boundaries. Nintendo's games were always somewhat less violent than their 3rd

Re:YHBT

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, this guy's really in need of a mod-bomb. If only I had points right now...

Stick to PCs.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're missing the point. Live isn't about game patches, it's about getting new content and making it easy to find other people to play with. Additionally, the manufacturers make their money from licensing software, a revenue stream you propose to do away with. With the proposed commodity hardware restricting their ability to cut costs (off the shelf means you don't make it and can't control the cost) and raise profits as time passes, to put it simply, "what's in it for them?"

Re:Stick to PCs.

[Anonymous Coward]

YHBT. YHL. HAND

Re:Phantom sounds like the right name for this box

[Afrosheen]

While you may be one of the sad, sad fans of the Dreamcast, you have forgotten a major reason for Sega exiting the hardware business.

The hardware business is expensive, and Sega ran out of money. That's all there is to it, no 'sony lied about sega' or 'sony slept with segas wife' or any other crap. After the horrible debacle that started with the 32X and SegaCD, they never really got their footing back. The 32X was a financial disaster, probably second only to the ET cartridges made by Atari. The Sega Saturn never really took hold and the 3d hardware was inadequate (not to mention seriously lacking in developer support). I mean, come on, it couldn't even do transparencies. That's sad. Even the 2d games on the Saturn had to use horrible cross-hatching from the 8 bit nintendo days (since the snes could do hardware transparencies and blending).

After the low sales of the Saturn and waning developer support, the Dreamcast was a last-ditch effort to stay in the market. It sold well in Japan but it was hard to find games for. Release dates kept getting pushed further back every week. Meanwhile Sony had a viable alternative with a growing library of hits. Namco and other big hitters were in Sony's pocket. The rest, as they say, was history. Sega's wisest decision was to get out of the hardware business and stick with what they've always done best: making games.

Now, you can get Sega games for multiple platforms. Sega just has to develop games and not worry about who wins or who loses the hardware wars. Their fate was probably ultimately unavoidable, and I'm glad they're still making fun games.

Huh?

[Alex Belits]

I just want to know, how the HECK is this thing going to make money for VIA or Apex? It has enough "asshole technology" to limit its usability to the level that unless nice people at Apex kindly allowed you to play a particular game, it won't run it at all, however PC games give no revenue to the hardware makers -- just the opposite, Apex has to make installer/uninstaller scripts for them. At its $400 price it is barely below similarly-specced PCs, so I guess, there is some slim profit margin in that, considering that all chips are VIA.

But the problem is, it competes with small PCs made mostly from... VIA's chips! VIA sells the same parts, probably at the same or higher profit, to PC makers, and those produce small "media/games" PCs for a bit higher price and infinitely higher flexibility. So VIA gets an inflexible product squeezed between traditional consoles ($100-$200 price range) and cheap gaming-capable PCs ($400-$600 price range), and to add insult to the stupid situation, the latter, that they are so busy undercutting, is also their best client.

If VIA just wanted to undercut the PCs it could just produce a fully-functional PC, price it at $400-$500, and enjoy the results. But with $400 thing that costs almost as much as an equivalent $500 PC, but does much less (not to mention, can't be upgraded to be able to meet new games' requirements in a few years), they just can't get enough users that buy that thing instead of either cheaper console, or a PC.

So why bother?

It must be real!

[Zakabog]

I know this system must be real, I've seen some pictures of a working model running duke nukem forever, the game it will come bundled with.

Allright!

[Anonymous Coward]

Woohoo! This box looks for sure like its going to go the way of the Dreamcast, a good thing. Let them put it out, it will fail and the price will drop to like 50 bucks so I can afford one, people will hack the living shit out of it and then maybe I will be able to emulate some higher end machines that the Dreamcast cant like the Amiga, Atari ST, full speed SNES etc!!! Allright!

Re:I'm reminded of the first sneak peaks of the N6

[pacc]

SGI did design the N64 3D engine so lacking real hardware their high-end boxes could have been a good way to get compatible graphics.

The name could use some work

[TwistedSpring]

The "Ape Xtreme"? A console named after a primate? How appropriate! Where the hell do I sign up?!

ApeXtreme?

[sharkey]

Donkey Kong on steroids?

Re:Phantom sounds like the right name for this box

[PainKilleR-CE]

While you may be one of the sad, sad fans of the Dreamcast, you have forgotten a major reason for Sega exiting the hardware business.

The hardware business is expensive, and Sega ran out of money. That's all there is to it, no 'sony lied about sega' or 'sony slept with segas wife' or any other crap. After the horrible debacle that started with the 32X and SegaCD, they never really got their footing back. The 32X was a financial disaster, probably second only to the ET cartridges made by Atari. The Sega Saturn never really took hold and the 3d hardware was inadequate (not to mention seriously lacking in developer support). I mean, come on, it couldn't even do transparencies. That's sad. Even the 2d games on the Saturn had to use horrible cross-hatching from the 8 bit nintendo days (since the snes could do hardware transparencies and blending).

You're completely ignoring, though, that the hardware business, especially for Sega, was not just consoles. Sega also had a severe problem in the arcade hardware side of things, especially with Sony (and now Microsoft) making arcade cabinets that offered easy porting to the home console(s). Sega tried to do the same thing, but their primary customer was themselves, and their games weren't doing as well against the juggernaut of Sony 3rd parties and Sony's marketing.

Sega was losing on more fronts than just the home consoles, and the Dreamcast didn't do well in Sega's home (Japan) until after they cancelled it, despite strong US sales.

Sony absolutely put on the massive marketing blitz for the PS2 when the Dreamcast launched, despite it being nearly a year before the release of the PS2, and when PS2s were pretty much unavailable at the launch of the system, Sony kept the marketing going through the DC's end-of-life and kept going because Microsoft and Nintendo were launching their consoles. We certainly never saw ads in movie theaters for consoles that weren't due out for over a year (if we saw them at all) before Sony started hedging their bets on the PS2 hardware.

Personally, I own all 4 of this generation's consoles, and the Dreamcast is certainly the saddest case, being somewhere in between the Cube and the XBox graphically, yet having been shelved by their own manufacturer due to no fault of the console itself.

Re:Phantom sounds like the right name for this box

[Afrosheen]

There have been many capable consoles released in the past that just haven't made it for one reason or another. You can release a substandard piece of hardware (compared to other consoles currently on the market) like the Xbox and people will still buy it if the marketing is strong and the market can support it. It seems there's always been a triad of consoles but a fourth seems unlikely. In the old days it was the Nintendo, the Sega Master System, and the Turbografx-16. Neo-Geo was also a bit player for those spoiled enough to own one. As time went on, Sony became the new leader. The PS1 was a showcase of engineering magic and good decisions. The ps1 controller raised the bar for controller design, the CD format proved undisputably that disc-based media was the way to go, both for Sony and for developers. People were used to seeing "Loading..." on their home PCs and the PS1 was no different. Some things are worth the wait.

At any rate, I totally agree with your point that regardless of the actual hardware itself, it takes alot more than hardware to produce a winner in the console market. It's very, very complicated to win in such a tough market.

apeXtreme

[enrico_suave]

That would make a pretty cool home entertainment box and PVR after some hacking =P The Anandtech article didn't mention PCI slots... if there is one I bet a Hauppauge 250 would be a sweet addition!

e.

Re:Phantom sounds like the right name for this box

[PainKilleR-CE]

I agree with you except on 2 points:
1) The XBox isn't a substandard piece of hardware, as can be seen in any number of multi-platform games that were actually developed by someone willing to take the time to take advantage of the hardware.

2) The TG-16 was competing with the NES, Genesis, and, later (though at that point the TG-16 was out of the race) the SNES. Hardware-wise, the TG-16 was in many ways superior, but it was quite obvious that NEC didn't have the name recognition in the US and they didn't have the titles for the US market.

In the end, though, there have always been niche markets and consoles that just didn't make sense. Even when it was the NES and the SMS, there was, eventually, a new Atari system available. There was also the Atari Jaguar, and the 3DO, and a few other niche consoles that some people may or may not remember (I remember in particular one that used VHS tapes to deliver what were basically interactive movies, but I don't recall it's name or price).

Handhelds have shown what we all pretty much knew from the Neo-Geo: even superior technology isn't going to justify a higher price, and sometimes older technology is superior simply because it better suits the target audience (ie longer battery life and lower cost to the consumer).

The CD drive in the Playstation sucked ass in terms of it's read time, but in the end it proved that developers would utilize disc-based formats and that it could be used to deliver superior visuals even if the hardware in the system is not superior, and, as you said, that people would wait for a loading screen, even on a console.

Phantom publishers/games

[gauauu]

Their website has a list of lined up for the phantom.

It has a few "real" games like Civ 3, Neverwinter nights, Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo, and Resident Evil 3, but most of them seem to be the type of PC games that you see on the $5 rack at EB games

Anyways, it looks less like vapor-ware, and more like just a plain waste of money.

Re:Phantom publishers/games

[PhoenixOne]

"We are currently updating our extensive list of content/publishers at this time. The temporary list of content/publishers previously shown were titles that are available currently for distribution with the Phantom console. It is by no means a complete compilation of games available on the Phantom."

Hmmmm, anybody have a mirror of the list? Anybody know why it was pulled? I'm not saying "BS" but it would be interesting to compare the list they had to the list they (may?) put back up.

Re:Phantom publishers/games

[gauauu]

Weird...the page was there yesterday.

Anyway, here's Google's Cache of the listing of games/publishers for the phantom.

Re:Phantom publishers/games

[PhoenixOne]

Guess I'm not the only one to notice this: http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/13/ 1637226&mode=thread&tid=127&tid=186&tid=20 6

I still want to believe. :)

Re: They recently acquired themselves

[Anonymous Coward]

I recently received a press release (actually it's available on their website too, if you hunt around). The release announces that Infinium has just acquired a game creating company, named infinium. (WTF?)

I don't get it. I submitted the story to /. and nothing came of it.

To me the press release made it sound like they had spun off a seperate corporate entity with a slightly different name, and now one of those companies was acquiring the other. Makes it sound like they're active, etc, ... surely to drum up investors or stock value.

I'm REALLY wary of this company. As people have shown and said, they are probably just in it for the venture capital...

This is the way things are going.

[fondue]

Okay, I am well aware that posting on a games.slashdot thread makes pissing into the wind look like a noble and life-affirming pursuit, but I'll bite.

From a technical vantage point, the ApeXtreme/Discover/shiny-PC-DVD-gamebox represents the platform that the console market is inexorably heading towards. The only thing that will slow down the migration to a PC-based gaming platform is resistance from the current hardware vendors (well, Sony).

The Xbox is already an x86 PC in a console form factor.

The arcade market is increasingly based around off-the-shelf PC-based solutions.

The Japanese gaming market generally don't want to buy PCs where they can buy consoles, but these boxes at least do away with the size and user-unfriendliness issues.

An increasing number of traditionally console-only Japanese development studios are branching into PC territory: Konami (PES, Silent Hill), Sega (PSO, Sonic), Square (FFXI) ... the list goes on.

An increasing number of multi-format console releases are also appearing on the PC, sometimes improving on their console brethren (GTA:VC) - no longer does the PC only get massively-delayed, badly ported efforts (FF7). In part this can be put down to the presence of the Xbox, if you're going to develop a game for the Xbox you might as well put out a PC version as well.

A PC capable of producing respectable graphics at TV resolutions is now cheap (OK, it won't be as cheap as a subsidised console). All the other physical hurdles keeping the PC from the living room have been cleared (controllers, tv-out, size, DVD playback).

When these factors start to snowball, what third party publisher is going to think favourably of another generation of paying hefty licensing fees to platform vendors who split the market three ways? Hell, even Microsoft would probably jump at the chance to not have to bleed money on the Xbox hardware (although still creaming off licensing fees on XP-Embedded or whatever, and publishing their own games).

VIA, Alienware and the rest have seen this. The hardware just needs to be marketed effectively and coherently for the idea to catch on. The general public (who hold the purse strings in the modern games market) need to be shown that sticking the PC in the living room is a no brainer, gives them loads of functionality, more choice, and sweet graphics.

It would also hopefully erode the widespread misconceptions that have been fostered under the current system -- such as 'walled garden' pay-to-play systems like Xbox Live being even remotely desirable, faced with an alternative. I doubt I'm alone in feeling frustrated with the softly-softly approach that the platform vendors have applied to online gaming and other areas.

Of course, switching from a fixed platform to an extendable one isn't going to be without some potential pitfalls, but the PC games market seems to do a reasonable enough job of managing variable end user specs - at least, I can't see the problem being made harder.

Go ahead and scoff though, I don't think I own any consumer electronics item that wouldn't have been scoffed at if it had been suggested five years ago.

p.s. Slashdot really needs to take a long hard look at this trend of editorialising and trying to second guess news items, at least for games stories. The 'Doom3 Vaporware' item was just pathetically inept, and hardly a one-off case. Stick to what you know, guys.

p.p.s. The 'Headline includes word comma word' headlines are incredibly irritating as well.

Thank you!

[M.C. Hampster]

Another winner DTB. I wonder how long the mod's will keep comign in.

You da mastah.

Re:I'm reminded of the first sneak peaks of the N6

[Anonymous Coward]

3DO did the same thing but with hidden Mac Quadros running the demos.

Apextreme

[S3Graphics]

I am very pleased to see the level of interest generated by this new product. I would like to clarify some points being discussed. The actual Apextreme units demonstrated at the CES show - as seen by AnandTech were running the internal UMA graphics running on the NorthBridge - not the new S3Graphics DeltaChrome. The S3G DeltaChrome is well capable of running new DirectX9 titles smoothly. We would be happy to demonstrate the capabilities of the unit to any press or reviewer at our offices in Fremont, CA and at future events.