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Videogame Graphic Advances - Not What They Used To Be?

Thanks to GamesRadar for its PC Gamer-reprinted article discussing why graphics alone aren't enough to sell a game anymore. The author explains: "During the final days of Steam, I found myself playing the original Half-Life. And, frankly, it looked perfectly acceptable. While it clearly lacks the fine polish of modern first-person shooters, the world it presented me with was entirely comparable with anything around. And, being a great game in the first place, it was more enjoyable than - say - Unreal II." He continues: "However, if you went back to 1998 when Valve's masterpiece was released, and attempted to play a game five years older than that, it would be a very different experience. To go back and play System Shock, Doom or Wolfenstein requires a whole re-arrangement of your thought processes to accept the difference in graphics quality." Do you agree that "...the days when graphics ruled videogames are rapidly drawing to a close"?

134 comments

  1. Yes by TheDarkRogue · · Score: 4, Funny

    Yes

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    (Score:0, Interesting)
    1. Re:Yes by Aliencow · · Score: 3, Funny

      Don't answer the whole thing in a first post dammit, you just broke the comment flow !

    2. Re:Yes by tsa · · Score: 2

      I agree. It's just like with HiFi sound: at a certain moment technology is so advanced that you can make better equipment but you don't see the differnce any more, or the differences are so small that people just don't care. So now it's back to the drawing board for new game genres or better stories! That's good; I just played the point-'n' click adventure game Pleurghburg, dark ages, and despite its Commodore 64-like graphics it was lots of fun to play!

      --

      -- Cheers!

    3. Re:Yes by cjthompson · · Score: 1

      Me Too

    4. Re:Yes by radicalskeptic · · Score: 2, Funny

      just played the point-'n' click adventure game Pleurghburg, dark ages, and despite its Commodore 64-like graphics it was lots of fun to play!

      *sigh* Yet another game that isn't ported to the Mac : (

      --
      WARNING: If accidentally read, induce vomiting.
    5. Re:Yes by xSauronx · · Score: 1
      in which case, maybe people will start making AI that doesnt suck.

      btw: the Ai in the farcry demo is pretty good, not great, but interesting.

      --
      By and large, language is a tool for concealing the truth. -- George Carlin
    6. Re:Yes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      The happening thing in video game graphics seems to be a layer of special effects that get applied on top of the normal 3D output, and there's still a lot of growth possible there. The motion blur in need for speed underground, the haze effects in prince of persia and the post-getting hit by a mortar shellshock thing in Call of Duty are some recent examples of this.

      In a way, this is comparable to what happened to movies. Once the transition from black/white to colour was over, realism was no longer a big issue, and it was all about style.

      Graphics are always going to be very important to games - but I predict a paradigm shift away from realism, and towards style.

  2. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No

  3. but then they'd have to rely on content/gameplay by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    which is very very hard for most game companies.

  4. Re:but then they'd have to rely on content/gamepla by El_Muerte_TDS · · Score: 5, Insightful

    people want as much eyecandy as possible before the game ships.
    but they want gameplay when they bought the game.

  5. Quite Right by Spiffae · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I agree completely. There have been some games that are wildly divergent in terms of their graphics, (Eye Toy, DDR) but by and large the game industry seems to have found something it's happy with in polygons. The next step will probably not be revolutionary, like the jump from 2D to 3D or sprites to polygons, but evolutionary.

    As pixel shaders and frame buffer effects become more common, we'll probably see an increase in "cinematic" effects, like depth of field, distortion, and better lighting accuracy.

    The best proof that graphics are pretty much stabilizing is the fact that the supposed "next-gen" games, are improving the fidelity of their game world, rather than reinventing it. Half-Life 2 is looking for a physically accurate and emotionaly involving world. Doom 3 is aiming at a well-lit world. Duke Nukem Forever is redefining how many times a game can be delayed, and many engines a single game can use.

    I'm fine with the polygons too... they never hurt me.

  6. Good Riddance by tid242 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Good riddance, i'm sick of the plethora of shitty games that survive solely because they have 'good graphics.'

    Maybe now people will actually develop good games instead of their own graphical egos.

    -tid242

    --

    With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan

    1. Re:Good Riddance by Mike+Mentalist · · Score: 0, Interesting

      Good riddance, i'm sick of the plethora of shitty games that survive solely because they have 'good graphics.'

      Such as...?

      There are probably far more crap games with crap graphics than there are crap games with great graphics.


      --
      I put my books on Amazon, Smashwords, Demonoid, ISOHunt and Pirate Bay. Search for 'Michael Cargill'
    2. Re:Good Riddance by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 2, Funny


      Maybe now people will actually develop good games instead of their own graphical egos.


      But what then are the guys from id going to do for money?

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  7. All about the hook by GTarrant · · Score: 5, Insightful
    I remember getting my first 3D card and going from playing, say, Quake, to playing GLQuake, and practically falling off my chair with how GL looked compared to software.

    But did Call of Duty do that to me, compared to some FPS of two-three years ago? Not because of graphics.

    But this happens all the time. You need a hook, to sell. Graphics aren't the big thing now. But back when the PlayStation came out, or when 3D cards were becoming more common in PCs, did you get something that advertised in big letters "3D!" on it. A developer would take anything, stick it in the box, and if it was 3D, it was 'cool' and people actually bought it, even if it was absolute crap. Games that were good, and 2D, didn't sell, and games that were lousy, but 3D, sold. Go back and read some game reviews from the period, and you see all sorts of reviews like "This was a great game, but with the '3D revolution' we're in now, it just doesn't cut it." Then a crappy 3D game gets a 8/10 because it's 3D. It's a hook. They're always looking for a hook.

    Graphics aren't a hook anymore. How often now do you look at screenshots on a box and go "Wow"? Not nearly as often. So they find a different one. If I had to pick one, I'd say right now it's "Online play!" Games with online play mention it about 14 times all over the box. Great games get some crappy netcode slapped onto them just so they can be "online!" Otherwise good games get hurt in reviews, even if they're single-player titles, because they don't have online play.

    What will the next hook be, when almost everything's online and "it's online!" is no longer something that reviewers will give bonus points for? That's the real question.

    1. Re:All about the hook by neostorm · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The future "hook" is likely total immersion. When I think of something that will blow me away today, on the same level as, say, the GLQuake example blew us away when we first began utilizing 3D cards, it's total immersion.
      Graphics today have a long way to go before they peak, there are still many things we can do that we just haven't had the time or power to do yet. However I don't forsee any of these things being revolutionary on that level until we are *in* the game.

      Now I feel like I'm in the mid-90's saying "Virtual Reality is the Next-Big-Thing" all over again, but I think that was the right attitude all along, just far, far too early to be realized.

    2. Re:All about the hook by Kirruth · · Score: 1
      Total immersion is something the Massively Multiplayer online games promise (and strive for) but most never really deliver. In theory a big old world filled with people should take you away from the day to day, and put you in a "golden land of opportunity and adventure". In practice that never seems to happen.

      One of the reason is the graphics. For a game to look good graphically, the sprites have to be very detailed and have a comprehensive set of animations. The problem is, this makes the game run slow and is very expensive to produce.

      The alternative is to have simple graphics and have lots of stuff. But people get tired of looking at the same blocky or glowy items.

      So you end up with great looking, empty worlds, or worlds filled with stuff, all of it ugly. My hope is that as graphics kind of "plateau" people will switch back to developing gameplay and worlds that people want to spend time in.

      --
      "Well, put a stake in my heart and drag me into sunlight."
    3. Re:All about the hook by real_smiff · · Score: 1

      ooooh you mean total immersion emotionally. i thought he meant visually.. wrap around views, surround sound 'n' stuff. yeah well total immersion emotionally.. like a world as complex as "our" world.. now that's slightly scary no? requires some advance in AI no? :o

      --

      This is my Sig, this is my Gun. One is for Slashdot and one is for Fun.

    4. Re:All about the hook by aanand · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The new hook? It's physics, man. Physics is the new cel-shading.

      Back on topic, though: I think one pivotal reason in the levelling-off of graphical advances is the sheer unfeasibility of building such densely modelled environments. How long does it take to model a skyscraper right down to the screw threads?

    5. Re:All about the hook by pezpunk · · Score: 1

      some advance in AI no?

      nope. just lots of meatbag competitors! =)

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    6. Re:All about the hook by kisrael · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Real physics for every damn thing. People that don't walk a scripted motion captured "walk" animation, but because of the the way their muscles and mass are working together. Rag doll physics is just the begining.

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    7. Re:All about the hook by Kirruth · · Score: 1
      Usually I'd say games look great now, you can look at the sky or out to sea. I'd say immersiveness needs more than that though: you have to feel you can interact with the world. Graphics help, but there is definitely more to it.

      Its not so much AI as game design (though beyond a certain point its hard to tell those apart)

      --
      "Well, put a stake in my heart and drag me into sunlight."
    8. Re:All about the hook by jafuser · · Score: 1

      like a world as complex as "our" world.. now that's slightly scary no? requires some advance in AI no?

      Not AI. Just an emphasis on user-created content, and the ability to freely build and script everything... See sig for an example of just such a place =)

      --
      Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
  8. Gah, I hope so... by Gleng · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would trade in 100 games with good graphics for one game with great playability.

    Some of my favourite games over the last five years or so have been things like Baldur's Gate 2, Civ 3 and Sim City 4. None of those can claim to have great flashy graphics (although the artwork in BG2 is fantastic), but they offer an unparalleled level of depth and gameplay.

    I'm certainly looking forward to whatever the "new Black Isle Studios", Obsidian Entertainment can come up with.

    --
    "Proudly Posting Without Reading The Article"
  9. None of today's games have "good" graphics by Kris_J · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The games of yesteryear that were considered to have outstanding graphics really pushed the hardware, I mean that they required real talent in programming and required every CPU cycle you could devote to them. None of today's games really push the envelope, just your wallet. Wake me when someone writes a game in assembler and it still requires a 2GHz machine and the latest DX9 video card.

    1. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by Hythlodaeus · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wake me when someone writes a game in assembler and it still requires a 2GHz machine

      You mean from cryonic freeze? That's how long it would take to do.

      --
      For great justice.
    2. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by dpete4552 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think it's because the graphic card developers hit a previously untapped sweet spot with "value" hardware that's not necessarly $20 bargin bin kind of stuff, but not the greatest $600 card. So now that they've hit that they don't wanna risk losing it by pushing the higher end hardware. Game developers are affected by that sweet spot as well, as they don't want to push their games out of reach of that vast "sweet spot" market.

      Back when all of this stuff wasn't nearly as mainstream as it is today, the geeky masses would be willing to spend the money necessary to allow the envelope to be pushed. When the vast majority of your market is geeks that have the lastest and greatest hardware, then the game developers feel comfortable creating games that require the latest and greatest hardware. On the otherhand, when the vast majority of your market has is Joe Sixpack, who isn't likely to know what a graphics card is, let alone purchase a better one if required -- game developers aren't going to feel comfortable requiring that high end hardware.

      --
      http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
    3. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by gtshafted · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding me? I guess you consider '$' as a good representation of a monster? Or have you remembered the fact that back then box covers were ussually more appealing than the graphics in the game?

    4. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by P-Nuts · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I guess you consider '$' as a good representation of a monster?

      But '$' would be an an awful representation of a monster. Monsters should be shown as alphabetic characters.

    5. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by shadowxtc · · Score: 1

      I won't name names in the negative sense here, lest this be tagged flamebait, troll, or otherwise... But I have to agree 100% - conditionally.

      I've seen many producers/publishers release, time and time again, absolute crap. I've also seen, time and time again, a few great major TV/movie franchises have their likeness placed in absolute crap.

      I will name names on the positive side.

      Rockstar: At the time, GTA's graphics, sound, gameplay, and everything else was not only great, pushing the system's limits, but also revolutionaly.

      Microsoft: What they've done for a gaming system, and online gaming, is what I've asked for for a decade, and I must give them credit for doing it superbly. Almost every one of the games that comes out of their studios is great, as well. Halo. Crimson Skies. Project Gotham. MechAssault.

      Nintendo: For a tiny box grossly underpowered versus the XBox, I'm shocked at how many beautiful FPS it pumps out. F-Zero is a true honor to its predecessor (for SNES - there was none for N64, I don't care what you say!). Zelda: Windwaker, though it may scare you at first, is also a great game, honoring the original. Shigeru, if you're out there, we all love you.

      You_Tell_Me: Since I don't actually play games (I'm a software developer, I work allllllllllll day long like the rest of you <g>), I really don't know of many others...

      So, for the sake of saving one gamer's soul (I was almost lost forever myself when Playstation was the only option... ), throw a couple good plugs out there so Kris can maybe enjoy a game for once!

    6. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Creeping gold coins (Yellow '$')

      === Num:195 Lev:10 Rar:3 Spd:-10 Hp:18d8 Ac:36 Exp:32
      It appears to be a pile of gold coins, until it starts crawling towards you on tiny legs. This creature moves normally. It can bash down doors. It is cold blooded. It resists lightning and poison. It cannot be confused or slept. It is fairly observant of intruders, which it may notice from 50 feet. It will carry up to 4 treasures. It can hit to attack with damage 2d5, and touch to poison with damage 3d5.

    7. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by KrisW · · Score: 1

      I'm thrilled, but why do you care if I "enjoy a good game for once"?

      --


      "Think you can take me? Go ahead on. It's your move." --Joe Don Baker in Final Justice
    8. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      Bah. No it wouldn't. It would just be silly, because many compilers can generate better assembler than even the best programmers these days.

    9. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by Naffer · · Score: 1

      If by grossly underpowered, you mean a 485Mhz IBM processor and a 162Mhz VPU? Nintendo's system is more powerful then they're given credit for.

    10. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 1

      I don't care what YOU say, the F-Zero GX was just a remake of the F-Zero 64 with better graphics, new tracks, and a somewhat easier to use side-attack move. In particular, both games have the brilliant boost-drains-shields model, that forces a trade off between safety and speed, and that constant temptation in multiplayer games to drive a bit more dangerously and unsafe.

    11. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by GTarrant · · Score: 2, Insightful
      There's also the fact that there was a point where if you had a 3D card, the developers pretty much KNEW which one you had. When GLquake came out, everyone pretty much had a 3dfx-brand card, if they had one at all. Then it's easy.

      Now, everyone has something different, and all the cards have different capabilities. Worse yet, some manufacturers are shipping their newest computers with some of the oldest 3D cards (Sony, for example, ships some otherwise top-of-the-line systems with TNT2 cards). Some manufacturers (especially the video card Big Two) pack a lot of neat features into their cards that allow developers to push the limits, others don't.

      As someone who has worked in gaming tech support, you have no idea how often you get a question like "I have this BRAND NEW SYSTEM and it came with a TNT2 and my game doesn't work." And you say "I'm sorry, sir, but the requirements listed on the box state you need an X card or better - it even names manufacturers and chipsets." And they say "But this computer is BRAND NEW, I'm never buying your games again!"

      Before, a game could say "3d accellerator required" or something, and you'd get _fewer_ people buying it that didn't have one. Now, EVERYONE has a 3d card - but when the devs try to push the envelope, some cards get left behind.

    12. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by shadowxtc · · Score: 1

      Many reasons - but honestly? Mostly greed, since my paycheck comes from the tech sector :).

    13. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by shadowxtc · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's what I mean. If you look closely, I did say "grossly underpowered versus XBox". I don't know the exact specs on the XBox but I assume it's NVidia graphics chip runs at a minimum of 133MHz (I dislike NVidia, and wish they had gone ATI). I know it's Celery is 700MHz or so. And it's got more RAM, and a hard drive for caching data (though I must admit the GameCube's drive seems to read much faster). Also, I was giving them credit for managing to crank out *more* FPS (albeit at lower resolution, wish they gave us component output!) than XBox on a weaker system. Extra extra credit, if you will.

    14. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by shadowxtc · · Score: 1

      I totally agree - but I'm fine with a remake! I've had tons of fun with F-Zero GX multiplayer.

      I discredit most N64 games... I really didn't like the system after an overhyped and long wait. The controller was abysmal. And I was really unimpressed with the graphics and sound quality versus PS (though I only -bought- FF7 for PS, I avoid Sony as if it were AOL).

      I was also really upset and pissed off that I couldn't give F-Zero 64, the sequel to one of my all time favorites, more than a week of play before shelving it.

    15. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by Kris_J · · Score: 1

      Creeping Copper Coins are a "$".

    16. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by TRACK-YOUR-POSITION · · Score: 1

      Oh, sorry, I thought you dissing F-Zero 64. Yeah, the N64/ PS1 era was definitely the "ugly" era of video games--3D graphics while 3D looked like crap. That's actually one of the reasons I liked F-zero 64--it was willing to sacrifice all graphics quality to make such a great game--the tracks look crappy, the cars look crappy, but framerate never drops even with 30 cars on the screen at one time.

    17. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by microTodd · · Score: 1

      Look at consoles instead. Seems like the "better" console developers still code to the metal.

      --
      "You cannot find out which view is the right one by science in the ordinary sense." - C.S. Lewis on Intelligent Design
    18. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by chrisbtoo · · Score: 1

      You know, I don't mean to be rude, but that's a really dumb assertion. Who do you think writes the compilers?

      You need a decent assembly language programmer, with an in-depth knowledge of the target architecture, to get a competent compiler. Therefore, it's not likely to generate better code than the person who wrote it.

      --
      Registering accounts later than some other chrisb since 1997
    19. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      That's rediculous. An informed compiler can take all the CPI numbers, cache sizes, branch prediction probabilities, and other CPU specific features into account and generate code that is truly optimal in most situations. 99 times out of 100 (or more) a good modern compiler is going to generate code that is as good or better than a top-notch assembly programmer as long as the algorithms in the high level code are the same as the ones that would be used by the assembly programmer.

    20. Re:None of today's games have "good" graphics by chrisbtoo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that's a fair point. It is pretty easy to automate all those parameters - moreso than to keep them all in your head, at least.

      Perhaps my view's been jaded by the use of some crappy compilers (that don't take account of cache sizes, instruction timings, etc) vs. a specific job that can be written much more efficiently in assembler.

      --
      Registering accounts later than some other chrisb since 1997
  10. What's wrong with System Shock 2's graphics? by QuantumG · · Score: 1

    Still seems perfectly ok to me.

    --
    How we know is more important than what we know.
  11. "Surface" technical feasability is here by ReyTFox · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But there's plenty of things one could add to a game that can't be done quite yet; some of them are programming questions like AI or systems modelling; others simply require more hardware, like modelling worlds with totally deformable terrain(Red Faction, if you even remember it now, felt like a hack because only certain parts could be destroyed) or bringing the detail of our CG characters and environments in line with pre-rendered work.

    The real issue is how we, so to speak, "start over" now that games can do everything we can imagine, when a big enough budget and schedule is allowed. Lots of people want to do virtual realities, in an online or single player form, and over time the distinction between that(when it was still theoretical) and a game that constantly tests our abilities or acts as social glue in the way that sports or board or card games might has gotten muddied; games today are often made heavy and slow-paced by feeling the compulsion to satisfy both the requirements of skill/excitement and of VR. Games rarely ever have a continuous stream of challenge thrown at you anymore; instead, it's broken up into little chunks wherin you explore a little, and then you fight or solve puzzles or whatever, and then you go back to exploring...

    That said, I have great hopes that the market will reinvigorate itself with a whole new set of ideas; there's plenty of untapped potential floating around that is likely to unleash great stuff over the next few years, games that try to do things "new and different" like any art should.

    1. Re:"Surface" technical feasability is here by jafuser · · Score: 1

      I'd like to see hardware that handles LOD calculations, so you can throw hundreds or even thousands of times the polygons at it than normal hardware can handle, but it's smart enough to know how to balance out the LOD so everything keeps it's detail when looked at up close, but the frame rate is still good when looking at the whole scene.

      --
      Please consider making an automatic monthly recurring donation to the EFF
  12. Funny that this should be posted tonight by thdexter · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When the Halo 2 screenshot was posted, I looked at it and its crappy moon-rocks or whatever the fuck and said to myself, "wow, it's Half-Life except with people who look better, mostly because they have masks on." Am I the only one who thinks Halo is the most overrated game ever, bar none? It's just another standard 3D shooter game based on a foreign planet with you being a soldier. We've seen it before, I think, a few times... um... Doom, Doom II, Half-Life, Quake, Duke Nukem 3D...

    --
    I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
    1. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by bugbread · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, you aren't the only one on the planet. However, a lot of people like it too.

      It's like chocolate cake. Chocolate cake has been done to death. Everyone's eaten it before; every variation has been done. That doesn't keep good chocolate cake from tasting good (use some other food example if you hate chocolate cake). Sure, chefs are experimenting with new non-chocolate cakes, and making almond crumble chiffon turnovers and other brand-new pastries, but that doesn't mean that chocolate cake isn't still good. Halo isn't popular because it is original, or innovative, or all of the other catchwords that get bandied around. It has a lot of fans because...it's fun! It may not be your cup of tea, but like it or not, it's popular because people enjoy playing it.

      People need to move away, not only from the idea that "Good Graphics = Good Game", but that "Innovation = Good Game", or "Realism = Good Game", or "Good Storyline = Good Game", and remember that the key is "Fun = Good Game". If good graphics, story, ideas, originality, etc. help make a game fun, then that's an added bonus, but even a game with trite, rehashed ideas, bad graphics, and a laughable story is awesome if it's fun.

      And if you haven't played Halo multiplayer, or you've only played on PC, you missed all the fun bits, so I wouldn't be surprised if you find it un-fun as well. The XBox multiplayer part is where it really shined.

    2. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      >It has a lot of fans because...it's fun
      Not to sound trollish, but I beg to differ. I downloaded the 134meg demo of halo a couple weeks ago, and I found the gameplay excruciatingly boring (and rather difficult) compared to say unreal tournament. It wasn't very fun for me, and I kept having to start over on the first level and on the easiest difficulty setting. I finished the demo and removed it from my hard drive. I won't bother getting Halo or Halo 2.
    3. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by a+whoabot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree. Fun is important. And it may, or may not, be solely what makes a game good, but it's obviously not what makes games sold and used solely. Unlike, a chocolate cake, a game can be "enjoyed" over and over again. They're not selling very many copies of Super Mario Bros. 3 anymore, despite the fact that it was, and still is, fun. Actually, they sell so few, that Nintendo doesn't even sell it anymore. They sell new games as "replacements" for the old games. These new games may be fun, but, are they anymore, purely, fun than games of past? This is doubtful, no doubt.

      Then why do people still buy, and enjoy, new games, if there are already thousands of extremely purely fun games out? There's obviously more to games then just pure gameplay fun. New stories, new graphics and who knows what else, also effect what games people get and use.

      So yes, perhaps if you define "good" as "pure fun", then, tautologically, you're right, "fun = good game", but if you consider what people buy and use in the definition of fun, then there must be more to it than "pure fun".

    4. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by bugbread · · Score: 1

      Agreed. My post was merely in response to the previous poster, who found no value in Halo merely because it was unoriginal. I just wanted to point out that people may enjoy a product not for its originality, but for its fun factor. Now, making a succesful product? That involves more than just fun, as you point out.

    5. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by EvilSporkMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Remove players or add Xboxen or use normal TVs (widescreen TVs stretch the picture quite often) or put your TV in 4:3 mode or use the proper video cables for your HDTV or whatever.

      --
      -insert a witty something-
    6. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by trashcanmoses · · Score: 4, Interesting
      They're not selling very many copies of Super Mario Bros. 3 anymore, despite the fact that it was, and still is, fun.

      Nintendo is still selling SMB3, just repackaged and targeted to the GBA. And lots of people are buying it. And lots of people are buying the Game Boy Player so they can play it on their television instead of hunching over a GBA. I bought it for the nostalgia, but a lot of kids are seeing it for the first time this way.
      My buddy just carried out an interesting (albeit unintentional) experiment with his 3rd grade son. He gave his son the new Zelda "Collectors Edition" disc with the original Zelda, Zelda 2, Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. My buddy and I were talking about all the time we spent on Zelda when we were his son's age, and how it was neat that his son would now be playing the same game, blah blah blah...so the kid pops in the disc and goes straight to Majora's Mask. Doesn't even glance at the originals. The conclusion that my friend and I have reached is that we are obsolete.
    7. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just wait until chocolate space cake -with extra chunky cannabis- is legal. Games coming with pot. Now that would be a great incentive to buy them instead of grabbing them on kazaa.

    8. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by MMaestro · · Score: 1
      Um Half-Life and Duke Nukem 3D never casted you as a soldier on a foreign planet (except for the last part of Half-Life). Both games took place on or around Earth. Doom II also took place on Earth (for about the first 10 or so levels) before going down to Hell. So out of your 6 examples, 3 of which (partially) take place on Earth.

      Some better examples would've been the entire Quake series, the entire Unreal and Unreal Tournament series, and Hidden and Dangerous. If you ask me, its more recent games that are moving away from Earth as a setting. I think Halo 2 is gonna serve as inspiration to developers for years since they're doing so much work on designing massive maps of a futuristic Earth.

    9. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      Am I the only one who thinks Halo is the most overrated game ever

      I hadn't played video games in years. A friend convinced to try playing halo with him. Suddenly it was eight hours later, and I was hooked. Now, four of us get together every week and spend the day shooting at each other and having a great time. The physics, the balance, the overall cleverness of it keeps us playing. For someone like me, who is admittedly unfamiliar with other recent games, Halo is amazing.

    10. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, they're still selling a *ton* of copies of Super Mario Brothers 3.

      Its not been reworked as Super Mario Advanced 4 (or some such title). I was around approximatley 3 12 year olds with gameboys during the holidays .. and all of them were totally immersed in it.

      Goes to show .. the classics stick around.

    11. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by thdexter · · Score: 1

      Thanks for your reply. I don't take offense at people saying it's an extraordinarily fun game, or fun multiplayer game, or that it's among the best shooter games ever released, but I've played it a decent amount with some friends. It's fun. But if you were to ask me what the best game ever is, I'd have to weigh innovation and originality in there, somewhere, and that's where I find Halo coming short.

      --
      I'm on a road shaped like a figure eight; I'm going nowhere but I'm guaranteed to be late.
    12. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Goldfinger7400 · · Score: 1

      It is interesting that you criticize Halo for the graphics, for it was my belief that Halo was an innovative (and fun) game due to the good physics, weapon balance, and AI. Sure, if you evaluate it like Quake it's gonna suck, because the appeals of Quake are mostly graphics based (hmm, a bunch of monsters charge at you and you shoot them. Repeat.) While in Halo, the enemy use team tactics, hide behind cover, and shoot funny things when you shoot at them! Halo should stand as a prime example of why graphics are not king anymore.

    13. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

    14. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think the key to your comment is that you haven't played video games in years. That's the only excuse I can think of as to why you would find yourself able to be immersed in a craptacular game like Halo; you just don't know any better.

    15. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by FlipmodePlaya · · Score: 1

      The mainstream probably doesn't even notice that the enemies have fancy AI, and use real tactics. A, dare I use the term, hardcore gamer will enjoy that aspect of the game, but the appeal to most of those who bought it probably has more to do with its advanced lighting techniques, bump mapping, and all the other graphical effects in the game. The vehicles are cool, too...

    16. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by bugbread · · Score: 1

      You would sound less trollish if you actually read my whole post. As I said at the end: if you played on PC, it probably wasn't fun (the PC port wasn't very well done, apparently), and if you played single-player, it probably wasn't fun. Where it shone was on MP on XBox. So you don't have to beg to differ, as we agree.

    17. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by bugbread · · Score: 1

      And thank you for your response. I think Halo is fun, too, but when people say "the best game ever", I also kind of have to scratch my head.

      My initial response was predicated on the idea that you found no value in Halo because it was not innovative. Your response has cleared up that misconception, so I realize that we basically agree.

    18. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by @madeus · · Score: 1

      I think that Halo wasn't nearly as innovative in terms of gamplay as Half-Life, and that it's over rated, but I do think it was an innovative game, and still lots of fun. I don't think it's the most overrated game ever (there is a lot of competion over the years), but it's definately in my top 20.

      However, it brought some great elements to the genre:

      The regenerating sheild idea. This makes the game insanley fun to play, especially when mixed with the other ability of being able to pistol whip and do huge amounts of damage that way, using any weapon. Both of these are elements that would recommend to be followed as ideas in similar FPS games to come. Good NPC friendly support (that moved and acted in a realistic way), great vehicle physics (by which I mean 'fun'), excellent nighttime/lighting effects and better than previousy seen enemy AI being the least novel of these, but still worthly of mention.

      I think that some games get a hard time though, like Unreal 2. I enjoyed this a lot. My only major complaint is that it was very, very short. It's true the AI was poor, far inferior to Half Life's, dispite it's age, but because of the way they were implimented, this didn't really present a problem. But what was their looked gorgeous and was very well designed and this really helped to drag you into the game by providing a high immersive environment. Some of the enemies, like the small spiders (very reminicient of StarGates Replications IMO - and that's no bad thing) made for a lot fun blasting them away. But then, I am the sort of person who loves looking round new maps and environments to appreciate the design.

      I think Unreal 2 has been one of the most underrated games of late, and has been battered unfairly. I would suggest though, that anyone who wants to play it, do it on nothing less than the most difficult setting, to get their moneys worth.

      I agree that, largely thanks to the licencing of engines like Epics Unreal engine, that graphic are no longer becomeing a pull, because simply few games sell well without it (there are always obvious exceptions, but that's the rule).

      I don't agree with this poster though, I've been playing HL2 addons (Blueshift, etc) recently and I fired up a Quake3 total conversion today. I find that after playing games like Unreal Tournament 2K3, Unreal 2, Halo, and the Far Cry Demo, that HL is simply too full of low resolution textures and blocky, low polygon models (by todays standards) and I just get distracted and pulled out of the immersive environment. I found this with all games over the years, including the once increadibly immersive Wolfenstien and once terrifying Doom. It seems odd and illogical on the surface to think that an old Mattel game like Shark! Shark! should be less involving, and I do think that some games like Astrosmash! have held their appeal, but I think they are the minority. I assume it's just that I have higher expectation these days.

      I think it would be nice, now that 3D engine technology is relatively stable and cards like the Radeon 9800 256Mb and the nVida 5900 are capeable of graphics of better quality than that of most in game CGI's done 10 years ago, for some publishing houses to go back and re-relase older games, like Half Life, but with higher quality textures and maps.

      The maps would obviously take more work, but it's a lot easier to fix up maps than it is to release a new game, and with updated models, you won't have to re-do the entire engine or AI (though in the case of a complex interactive title like HL, you'd almost certainly need to give it a few tweaks to make sure the physics was okay with some of the in game 'puzzles').

      I think it's too early to do this with some 'older' games (e.g. Quake3, the origional Unreal, etc) but I'd love to see publishers take games like Dark Forces (and the sequal, Jedi Knight), Bungie's Marathon series, the origional Doom Series, Half Life, Duke Nukem 3D, X-Wing, Tie Fighter (etc.) and have them re-done using the latest engines from houses like Epic

    19. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Rallion · · Score: 1

      People need to move away, not only from the idea that "Good Graphics = Good Game", but that "Innovation = Good Game", or "Realism = Good Game", or "Good Storyline = Good Game", and remember that the key is "Fun = Good Game".

      Pretty much true, but I think it's a bad idea to downplay the importance of innovation. Innovation doesn't really make a game better, I realize that. I even realize that it makes it worse, at times. I think it gives a game more potential to be great (as well as more potential to be terrible!), and with no innovation we'd all start to get bored.

      Then again, I said I agreed with you...What game company routinely sets sales records and recieves the best game reviews? Blizzard does. Does Blizzard innovate, ever? No, not really. They make your standard games, usually just picking a trendy genre, and then develop based on fun. If you read any interviews with WoW developers, during the Alpha the prime question that testers are supposed to be concerned with is not, "Is the battle system good" or "Is the UI easy to maneuver," it's "Am I having fun right now." That viewpoint, along with meticulous attention to detail, is what makes their games so successful. And that's the reason I think I'll love WoW though I've never played a MMORPG that I didn't hate.

      Hooray! Fun!

    20. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by bugbread · · Score: 1

      True, and I may have overstated my point in response to the popular "Innovation = Good" view. Reflecting on things, I would say that lack of innovation is not in itself bad, but as people get more and more used to games, and play more, fun levels may go down unless innovation occurs, in which case innovation will become necessary for fun. Case in point: I loved Pitfall when I was a kid. I've played it since, and it is incredibly boring. One could say that innovation since then is what makes the game less fun, but I'd posit that even if there were no innovation since the old Atari days, I'd still find it boring. The same old thing can get boring, and innovation can get one out of that rut. However, lack of innovation does not in itself make a game less good. If someone dislikes a game like Halo because of the repetitive levels, etc., that makes sense, but if the only argument against it is that it is not innovative, the argument is weak.

      In addition to making stale game scenes more fun, innovation can also be the icing on the cake. For example, as fun as Halo was for me, some innovation could have made it that much better.

      So innovation can be the catalyst to discovering new types of fun. It can be the mover that gets a non-fun repetitive game scene out of its rut. It can also be icing, giving a good game a little spice (I think graphics improvements fall in this category. Quake was great fun. Graphic innovations on the same game style have provided an edge on top of that, making it fun + pretty).

    21. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Paradise+Pete · · Score: 1
      That's the only excuse I can think of as to why you would find yourself able to be immersed in a craptacular game like Halo

      While it may not (as I said, I don't know) be the best game around, it is hardly "craptacular." It's highly entertaining. The fact that there may be better games does not, in itself, make Halo any less entertaining.

    22. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by The_dev0 · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, i agree with most of your post, but I just want to comment on your assertion "Where it shone was on MP on XBox". I've played it to death, and to be honest, I can't help but think the only reason it garnered such praise as there was no real competition for a 1st person shooter (esp. for MP) on the XBox. Xbox owners lapped it up, PC owners seemed to release a collective "meh..." I personally think Timesplitters 2 is a far superior game in every way, yet the hype machine makes HALO sound like the greatest game ever produced (another reason I think people seem disappointed when they finally played it).

      --
      Never fight naked, unless you're in prison...
    23. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by Roger+Wernersson · · Score: 1

      No, Halo was unique. It is the best co-op shooter I've seen so far. Gameplay!

      --
      temporarily sigless
    24. Re:Funny that this should be posted tonight by ooby · · Score: 1

      That's because your buddy didn't give him "A Link to the Past"

  13. Photo-realism by limekiller4 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Game graphics are asymptotically approaching photo-realism.

    Is it slowing? Yeah, because as you get closer to this holy grail, you spend more and more time/years getting less and less return for the effort. But are all the nails in this coffin? No, not even close. What we have now looks good but isn't going to convince anyone they're looking at footage.

    --
    My .02,
    Limekiller
    1. Re:Photo-realism by pontifier · · Score: 1

      It all depends on what you're looking at.

      When i saw ads for GranTurismo 3 I thought i was seeing video footage... i had to see the ads a few times before i was able to tell that it was gameplay, and was still fooled by some of the clips.

      A person is tough to get right, but those cars looked perfect to me. Reflections, shadows, realistic movement as the cars went over bumps... they even seemed a little dirty in spots. It has been a long time since i saw it, but i was fooled.

      --
      -John Fenley
    2. Re:Photo-realism by NEOtaku17 · · Score: 1

      Have you guys seen the Gran Turismo 4 screenshots! They are amazing... definitely appraoching photo-realism and this is on the PS2's dated hardware. Think of what a DX9 card of today with a decent proc could do. http://www.gamespot.com/ps2/driving/granturismo4/s creenindex.html

  14. One More Graphics Advance by Babbster · · Score: 4, Insightful
    There's one more graphics advance that will stun people and that's when material/environmental science is applied to every set of polygons in a game. For example, not only will you see a newspaper blowing along the post-apocalyptic street you're walking down in the latest FPS, but the newspaper will realistically alter in shape according to how the wind blows and how it hits the ground or other objects. Instead of blowing up a brick wall, breaking it into predetermined bits; the brick wall will break apart differently - dictated by realistic physics - depending on what was used to blow it up, the size of the bricks used in construction and the mortar holding it together.

    I consider this an advance in graphics, in addition to an advance in gameplay and game physics, because it enhances the visual realism of the gaming experience. Shooting a chandelier and making it fall onto enemies is cool. Shooting down that same chandelier and watching it hit the enemy and ground, breaking into realistic pieces flying in realistic patterns would be awesome.

    1. Re:One More Graphics Advance by beakerMeep · · Score: 1
      Isn't that called the havoc engine? They have made some strides in that direction have they not?

      The thing game designers and level designers need to focus on is not only these new graphics, but how to INCORPORATE them into the gameplay. For example, in the original deus ex game I remember grabbin a rolling cart and placing a small TNT box on it and rolling on down the hall only to shoot it when it neared my enemies. If only the designs would use all these features then the games could be awesome again. So while graphics may be starting to level out I think the next big thing (if the devs are smart) is to USE all the previous advances.

      Like...
      -first persont user guided rockets
      -true rolling carts
      -jedi type powers (ala JKII)
      -objects are ALL meant to be picked up
      -bullet time
      -vehicle driving

      --
      meep
    2. Re:One More Graphics Advance by damiam · · Score: 1

      The Havoc engine is aiming for that, of course (as are all other physics engines), but it's not anywhere close yet. Probably nothing will be for at least another decade.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
    3. Re:One More Graphics Advance by Teddy+Beartuzzi · · Score: 1
      Um, you seem to be missing one thing however - how is that more fun?

      I don't want a developer to spend precious time on making the newspaper blow realistically, or each brick to break differently. That's stuff that 99.9% of the audience will never even notice.

      Reality is *boring*. Movies learned this a long time ago, which is why every single car accident blows up in a massive explosion, rather than just dents a bit when hit.

      Spend your time thinking about how to make things more fun, not more realistic. Gameplay is king.

  15. seen the LOTR:ROTK game? by Tumbleweed · · Score: 1

    I saw this about a month ago being played in a computer store, and was blown away. The graphics on this game are noticeably beyond anything else I've seen currently available. There's definitely still much room for improvement, if that's the only game out there with that kind of detail.

    Also third-person games blow away FPSs, IMO. Except for BZFlag - that game rawks! :) (ps to BZFlaggers - GMs & Lasers are for pussies! PUUUUSSSSEEEEEES. (Yes, I mean *YOU*!))

  16. Maturity by rmarll · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The graphics pipline has matured as much as it will for a long while. There's very little in the way of eye candy that you cannot do on modern day hardware. Speed will improve, but graphics has become a money problem instead of a technical one. In essence, the revolution is over. The real progress is going to be in the redistribution of technical effort into levening of entertainment value.

    Uh oh. Off topic stuff below....

    Some have said lately that the ease of developing a modern engine is a terrible thing. I disagree. It's been about 20 years since a single individual could develop something that was both decent visually and fun.
    Consider the Independan Games Festival's entrants page for 2003 http://www.igf.com/2003entrants.shtml
    games produced by hobbists that still still need teams, run up tens of thousands in costs, and take years of time to get to their (not always) finished state.

    Richard Garriot had a very limited number of pixels to work with when developing the early Ultima's which eased his burden enormously. Since then it's all been about the number of people in your art department, and the engine you liscense.
    The power and flexability of modern hardware is making development, code and art, less costly. For the casual developer, what has been just too much work to bother is becoming more trivial. I think we will be seeing activity in the hobiest gaming arena that has been absent for a very long time.

  17. So many times I've been wrong... by BTWR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    OK, I always knew Atari, even in its day, had awful graphics. I remember playing the NES game "Total Recall" and thinking (as an 8 year-old) "wow, what a crappy attempt to recreate Arnold."

    Ninja Gaiden, the cut scenes at least, had "awesome" graphics at the time but I knew they were just really good cartoons. But when I played Wheel of Fortune on the SNES one time, and it had a near-photo quality still-picture of Vanna White on the title screen, I thought that "well, this is the best it can be... because you can't do better than photos!"

    Flash forward to 1997 when I first saw Mario 64. I walked into my friend's house and I seriously did not even take off my jacket. I was standing there for like 10 minutes just marveling it. Amazing, I thought. They did it. They peaked. Can't get any better.

    Once again, I was wrong. Super Mario Sunshine is much prettier.

    Stupid me, here I go again. Just 5 minutes ago I finished watching a preview for EA mvp baseball 2004 for gamecube and I thought again "Wow, this is a looooong way from Bases Loaded on NES. look how awesome this looks! Seriously, how get much better than this!?!?"

    Something tells me that I'll laugh at that statement once again in 2008...

    1. Re:So many times I've been wrong... by kisrael · · Score: 1

      Well, I was amazed to find out games have passed a weak firm of my own personal Turing test...over at a party, some football game was on TV, the onscreen overlay talked about waiting for a call from the refs.

      It took me 10-15 minutes 'til I realized it was still waiting for the refs, no commercials. Then I looked more closely and saw it was a video game. And I'm a pretty avid gamer, but out of the corner of my eye, the camera angles used (switching to various players standing around) were 'real' enough and the player models detailed enough that I didn't doubt it was a real broadcast.

      This trend will continue...I've yet to see a game w/ as real humans, as say, the Final Fantasy movie, and even that wasn't quite photorealistic...

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    2. Re:So many times I've been wrong... by Rallion · · Score: 1

      Imagine a game that looked like Final Flight of the Osiris.

      Including the half-nekkid women!

    3. Re:So many times I've been wrong... by DAldredge · · Score: 1

      Hint: Don't drink and/or smoke so much at your next party. :->

    4. Re:So many times I've been wrong... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "...Flash forward to 1997 when I first saw Mario 64. I walked into my friend's house and I seriously did not even take off my jacket. I was standing there for like 10 minutes just marveling it. Amazing, I thought. They did it. They peaked. Can't get any better.

      Once again, I was wrong. Super Mario Sunshine is much prettier...."

      Those are bad examples. As an avid console gamer, Mario 64 not only broke graphic boundaries, it was also a fun game to play. It was something you'd play hours on end, way after the initial shock of its graphic glory.

      From what it sounds, you're more of a spectator. As a gamer, Mario sunshine was pretty, but it wasn't as fun as Mario64. With Mario64, I'd play hours on end, making sure I've completed 100% b/c I wanted to enjoy it as much as possible. I even replayed some of the levels I've already beaten. I must've beaten the game after a week or so, but I kepted playing it for months, b/c the game was so much fun.

      With Mario Sunshine, graphical superior game, it became a task. I'd play a level just so I can get it over with. Right now, I still haven't played half the game. And it's not because its difficult, it's because I'm bored of it.

      I mean, look at the xbox! Clearly, it has the best looking games on the console, but it doesn't have a big list of A+ games.

      Graphics may change, but you still need that gameplay.

    5. Re:So many times I've been wrong... by kisrael · · Score: 1

      Heheh, no, I think this was before I started to imbibe, etc. It was an "attention deficit" kinda thing, not an "attention swimming in fun substances" kind of thing.

      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
  18. The days of the "Back of the Box" by BTWR · · Score: 1

    I remember when I'd browse EB when I was a kid with my friends, and what could seriously sell us on a game was to look at the back of the box and see the 4 pictures on the back of the NES/PC game. We could totally be like "whoah! look at the 'multimedia' version of Kings Quest 6 (i.e. it was on a cd-rom) versus the floppy version (on like 11 disks)!"

    I don't remember a single game I've bought in the last few years because of graphics. Sure, they're nice, but nowhere near say, the top 3 selling points of a game (genre, gameplay/multiplay, reviews)

  19. We haven't even scratched the surface. by shadowxtc · · Score: 1

    Give it time. Ten years ago we were waiting for some sort of "virtual reality" - we still are (though I must admit an XBox on a plasma HDTV is damn close). Let's also not forget the prospect of 3D and/or holographic displays. And once we get that down, it's only a matter of time before we shift focus to something more like a holodeck. Some LaserTag arenas were a pretty suitable virtual reality experience years ago. We won't be running out anytime soon.

  20. yeah sure by metalmario · · Score: 2, Interesting

    tell that to the average joe. only older gamers can see through the graphical polish to the core of the game. don't forget that it's expensive to create those complex (and good looking) 3D-models. the prettier it is the more time it takes to make. unless the average coders populating the game industry somehow manage to build a cool 3D-model generator. it would be better to move those extra 100000 hours from opengl programming to ai programming as the ai in games is so simple and sad (yes, even in black'n'white, you fanboys). read few hundred practical ai papers and you'll see what i mean. how about trying to win the trophy in game ai, instead of graphics?

  21. spatial immersion is more key by ghostlibrary · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "a whole re-arrangement of your thought processes to accept the difference in graphics quality."

    I disagree. Doom is still quite playable. People don't 'rearrange their thought processes' to play cartoonish games like Jet Grind Radio, lower graphics quality doesn't require a shift. What does require a shift is 'how do they model the space'.

    I think 'Doom' really nailed the spatial immersion aspect (and is still playable now). Quake et al added full 3D movement. It wasn't just the graphics, but the fact that Game Movement was like Real Life Movement.

    So it's sort of a tactile thing. Once you were walking seamlessly (not in chunky steps), and could look around, things had 'arrived'. After that, things just got prettier.

    And, they got the audio right-- you got spatial information from where the sound came from. (5.1 stuff has really helped boost that, but I can't pick 1 'pivotal' game that advanced it.)

    So I think the next big leap isn't going to be graphical, but spatial. Perhaps handling peripherial vision, so you don't get the 'someone is hitting me but where?' effect, and there's more of a sense of placement.

    Or some clever way to handle mapping and direction so you don't feel lost-- one can get lost in an FPS mall due to lack of spatial awareness, whereas it's harder to do in real life.

    Or perhaps kinetic sense will be the next thing, actually feeling motion. We'll see.

    --
    A.
    1. Re:spatial immersion is more key by ziggles · · Score: 1

      Some games already deal with that "someone is hitting me but where?" problem. The latest game I played that did it was the demo of Far Cry. Whichever side people are hitting you from, a flash of red on the screen (which is something a lot of games use to show you're getting hit in general) is concentrated at one edge of the screen, the edge in the direction of the bad guy.

      I'm pretty sure there are older games that have things like that, but none are coming immediately to mind.

    2. Re:spatial immersion is more key by BCoates · · Score: 1

      I believe the little head in wolfenstein and doom that showed your general health also looked toward the direction damage came from.

    3. Re:spatial immersion is more key by Jad+LaFields · · Score: 1

      Half-Life did that as well.

      --
      [SIG] It's like putting a moose in the blender -- a recipe for disaster!
  22. Silly kid by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Informative
    He is talking about the original System Shock. In case you hadn't noticed by either the titel or the story it was a sequel.

    The original System Shock was a ground breaking titel at the time of doom but using a fastly superior engine for the enviroment and a fastly infirior one for the characters. It was I think one of the first true 3d shooters as opposed to dooms and duke nukems 2.5d. It also had a great story and if you had the cd version excellent voice acting.

    Sadly it also was about a gazillion times more complex to play then doom. It was however a single player game so really they can't be compared.

    As for outdated graphics. If you read the text files on the cd you will read that it has support for 3d headsets. So whenever these things actually appear in shops, System Shock will be THE game again :)

    Disclaimer it is of course entirely possible that the poster had intended it as a joke. On slashdot you just never know for certain and System Shock is to nice a game to go unmentioned.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Silly kid by antime · · Score: 1

      System Shock's engine was derived from Ultima Underworld's. Of course it wasn't a shooter, but...

  23. Network Traffic by apoc.famine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Werid that I made a similar post on another board minutes before reading /., but anyway...

    Most games are still only in the 20 updates/sec range still, when played online. UT/UT2k3 is a good example of this. The game looks great, and plays like a dream on a lan, but even on cable the update rate means rockets can disappear and people can skip over large portions of ground as the game struggles to get enough updates to accurately place things. Of course, it doesn't help that our server is on 110% speed, but who would want to play slower... ;)

    The other thing that keeps us with UT2k3 is our modding efforts. When I can rip open the code for a weapon and change it, I'm much more likely to keep playing that game. The ability to mod a game is my primary motivation for playing it. Our weapons are pretty well balanced now, which they weren't in the orig game, we have the matrix moves, (coded inhouse) carry the flag, (you have to pick up your flag and bring it back home when it's dropped) as well as a host of other fun mods. Without all those additions, we wouldn't be playing the game still.

    Graphics are nice, but when I can make a game *my* game, I'll play it a lot longer than any other.

    --
    Velociraptor = Distiraptor / Timeraptor
  24. Complete and utter drivel. by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Two recent games. UFO aftermath and Silent Storm. As I played aftermath I thought looks nice. Great game. A silly person like the article poster would have said that the graphics were great and nothing could have improved on it. Cue Silent storm released shortly after. Where UFO had mostly static scenery in Silent Storm it could be destroyed by your fire. UFO had only outside citylevels and indoor bases. Silent Storm had outside levels with houses you could go in. The graphics were just so much better it is hard to describe. Both are fun and intresting games to play but when compared Silent Storm is just the better game despite its weaker story. (Why am I a WW2 soldier fighting some alien invasion? Isn't WW2 on its own intresting enough anymore?)

    And Silent Storm wins because of its graphics. It really makes a difference when you are fighting a heated battle and the enviroment does get damaged. I had a small squad pinned down by a sniper on the third floor who constantly ducked out of the way after taking very accurate shots. My own sniper was busy being patched up. So I had a soldier run up to the side of the house and start throwing grenades at the house. He couldn't reach the floor of the sniper let alone lob one in through the window. He did however manage to hit the outside of the second floor. This blew away the wall allowing the second grenade to sail in easily. Blowing away both floors killing the sniper as he fell two floors.

    So yes I think graphics will be continue to be an important improvement. No maybe not in "dumb" shooters like quake where quite honestly the increased power has only been used to create nice decoration. In games like Vietnam, Silent Storm, Operation Flashpoint, the increase in graphics power is however used to create more then just pretty pictures. It is used to create a more realistic enviroment in wich to play. People complain about snipers? Play OFP and see how easy it is to snipe at a player 1 mile away.

    Really why do people keep posting these stupid stories? They happen every year and every year they are proven wrong.

    Oh and I don't think games like Half-life aged terribly but I do enjoy in more recent games that peoples lips move and there heads in general are more then cubes. No it doesn't matter to much in a frag fest. But when like me you enjoy single player games it does matter.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Complete and utter drivel. by gl4ss · · Score: 3, Interesting

      the ability to destroy the houses & environment in silent storm is not a gfx perk, rather a gameplay one. it's a bit ironic though that it's better than ufo: aftermath because of that since ufo1&2(or xcoms whatever you prefer for naming) had those destroyable houses and it really did matter in the battles as well(my favourite was using the explosive shooting weapons to spray the areas I thought there were aliens in).

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    2. Re:Complete and utter drivel. by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 1
      But the graphics need to be able to do it. I don't know if you played and were capable of doing it at max level but the lighting was dynamic as well. Meaning that if you blew a hole in a wall the light from the next room would shine through and cast shadows.

      This is more then you say had in quake were if you opened a door to a lighted room then the light would NOT spill into the room you were in.

      Graphics is not just extra polys to make round pillars. It is also bullet holes in the pillar. Smoke from burning wood. Holes in the wood. And so on.

      As for the gameplay. Yeah Silent Storm plays way more like the originals UFO's then Aftermath does. Oh and one tip. Look out if there is a gas cylinder in your line of fire. At least if you got your own men close to the building :P

      --

      MMO Quests are like orgasms:

      You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

  25. Fond memories of Origin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In my mind no company in the history of gaming pushed graphics advances more than Origin. Starting with the original Wing Commander, which was simply dazzling, they consistently put out games that made me salivate thinking how pretty they would be.

  26. Older games by etherlad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm still going back and playing my old games on occasion. Space Quest, King's Quest, Ultrabots, Quest for Glory...

    Hell, AGD Interactive (formerly Tierra) is redoing some of Sierra's older EGA games into scintillating 256-colour graphical wonders.

    Cell-shaded 3d graphics? Pretty to look at, but I don't need 'em. (:

    --
    Soylens viridis homines es
    1. Re:Older games by pezpunk · · Score: 1

      are you insane? how many times can you play kings quest before the frustration of falling off of footbridges and staircases to your death outweighs the sheer thrill of typing "give egg to troll"?

      yes, graphics have come a long way since then, but honestly gameplay itself has come just as far. you like adventure games? play some Grim Fandango. Monkey Island.

      --
      i could live a little longer in this prison
    2. Re:Older games by etherlad · · Score: 1

      I have. Zak McCracken, Sam & Max... I like 'em too. Doesn't mean I can't like Sierra games. And I'm not the only one.

      I don't tell you what you should or shouldn't like. Long as you've found something you enjoy and you're having fun with it, cool. I don't like horror movies, I don't like romantic comedies, but that doesn't invalidate them, and I don't tell people who do enjoy them that they're insane. So let me enjoy my games, and you can enjoy yours.

      Anyhow, I prefer not to type anything... Sierra came up with an innovation around 1990 where you select the appropriate "mouse cursor," "point" to the object you want to perform the action on, and "click."

      The only Sierra game I want to play that involves the old parser interface right now is Quest for Glory 2, and the aforementioned AGDI is remaking it so I don't have to.

      --
      Soylens viridis homines es
  27. indeed.. by tasinet · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Graphics have become very realistic nowadays, and after the initial shock of "o_O WoW! this is so real!" every time you play a newer and better game.. You need the 'something more' which will stick you to the screen and glue your hand to the mouse. See counterstrike for example-a '98 game [?-not sure-sorry!] with graphics of '98 but YET it is STILL a favorite of a LOT of people.. including me ;o)

  28. It's not just the graphics, but the design! by Tom7 · · Score: 1

    I still think Quake 1 had more interesting architecture than many games released today. It's just so sad to see bunches of axis-aligned stacks of crates...

  29. Uncanny Chasm by Thedalek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sometime in the last six months, Popular Science did an article on a robotics hobbyist whose quest was to create an android head which mimicked the movement and form of a human head completely.

    Over the course of the article, they discussed something called the "Uncanny Chasm." This chasm was what happened at a point just shy of total realism, at which things look jarring, unnatural, and disturbing.

    This is part of what's happening with games right now. We've reached the cusp of the Uncanny Chasm. Some have marched headlong off into the pit: I can't count the number of sports games I've looked at and thought "Wow, that looks totally incredib... Woah, that looked completely wrong."

    SquareEnix and Konami have pushed further towards the far edge of the Chasm, but only in cutscenes. The primary reason is, once the character is under the player's control, it is virtually impossible to keep up the convincing level of motion and still have the player be able to control more than just a modern-day Dragon's Lair.

    --
    Happiness is relative, Based upon the way we live.
    1. Re:Uncanny Chasm by cr0sh · · Score: 1

      Was it this article?

      --
      Reason is the Path to God - Anon
    2. Re:Uncanny Chasm by Radius9 · · Score: 1

      One of the problems with making characters behave realistically is that its not always fun. I worked on a couple basketball games, and the first one I did, we briefly tried putting in animations of the player doing things like turning around 180 degrees from a full run, etc. In the end, it looked really good, but it was impossible to play. We ended up just letting the character turn around 180" instantly, because thats the only way to make it playable. The really good looking motions in games tend to be the automatic ones, things like their idle animations or cut scene movements. Once the user interacts with it, you have to cut out a lot of "realism" just to make it playable and fun.

  30. Bad Example by Artemis · · Score: 1

    I think you picked a bad example with Super Mario Brothers 3 since Nintendo has ported it to GameBoy Advance and re-released it as Super Mario Brothers 3: Super Mario Advance 4, and it's been a huge hit.

  31. ROTK game... by CashCarSTAR · · Score: 1

    Doesn't really have that great graphics. What it gives you, is something different.

    Massive graphics.

    Not so much detail, but a lot going on the screen. It's a tradeoff, but one that's worth it.

  32. Polygons vs. Design by CashCarSTAR · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Not all graphical splendor is due to technology or polygon pushing. A large part of it is due to design decisions that will make to tend something pleasing, or not pleasing.

    The graphics have improved to the point where creators have a pretty damn big canvas to work on. Just improving the technology isn't good enough anymore. It's all about making your game feel good. That's really what it's all about.

  33. What's wrong with Doom? by pocopoco · · Score: 1

    Graphics in terms of "looking realistic" might be approaching it's peak, but that's the most useless application of graphics to gaming there is in my mind. I actually prefer Doom to Quake since Quake looks like mud (literally, all the colors are dark and muted and blend into each other) and Doom is nice and simple to navigate and fight in - that last is the point of the game remember. I still have directories full of maps to try for Doom while my copy of Quake is getting dusty on a shelf somewhere. I can't talk about much newer FPS games since I don't consider the what they add to be worth the hardware it would cost me to play them.

    Similarly I would hate increased realism graphics being applied to some of my favorite gaming pass times. Continuum is a great 2d multiplayer ship combat game and increased realism in the graphics department (e.g. 3D) would just hurt it. Now better graphics as part of new weapons, ships, translucent radar that only shows when you look at it, and stuff like that would be most welcome. There isn't a peak for these things either, since they are gameplay and game system intertwined like all important graphics decisions are. I hate all these graphics MMO RPGs out there (tend to be filled with repetitive tasks and non role players...) compared to MUDs, but when my favorite mud added an overland map I rather liked it since it improved gameplay.

    1. Re:What's wrong with Doom? by Goldfinger7400 · · Score: 1

      If you are still playing the old-school FPS's you should check the PC port of Marathon (http://source.bungie.org/), though I shudder to mention port and marathon in the same sentence. Marathon was released on the Mac around the same time as Doom on the PC, and I had similar reservations about the mud content of Doom. Plus, Marathon has kickass physics, something just starting to come back into style, and probably the best story of any game to date.

  34. The answer is a resounding NO. by __aailob1448 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    While It is true that graphics have remained a bit stagnant for the last 5 years or so, I believe this is just a phase. Graphics still have a very long way to go before they become truly photorealistic. Toy Story came out in 1994 and 10 years later, a standalone PC still has a long way to go before being able to render it in real time. And toy story can hardly be called photorealistic. Similarly, today's best techniques and the biggest rendering farms can give us something like The fight scene between Neo and the 100 agent smiths in Matrix Reloaded. Barring some revolutionary breakthrough, A standalone PC won't be able to render something like that for another 20 or 25 years at least. And that scene was not quite photorealistic either. Add to that the fact that we need to progress towards a resolution of 4196*2360 and 100FPS as a minimum and my estimate would be 50-100 years before we can look at something that can fool our eyes completely.

  35. Immersion Vs Total Immersion by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1

    First off I don't think we are anywhere near graphical realism.

    Now let me explain, in point form: 1.)Immersion is the ability of a player to be lost in the game world, there are many factors to this outside of graphics but they are important. For many anime watchers swotching to CG is a step away from realism. I think this is because they are tied directly to the creators vision and the emotional content of the voice actors. Adding CG is just another level between you and the creator (Same with physical actors). In other words Immersion is in the eye of the audience.

    2.Experience leads to more immersion. When I started playing GLQuake it didn't make an ounce of diffrence, I couldn't really tell which I was playing and I still can't to this day. Of course I had logged more hours in Q1 DM than my parent's thought physically possible. My point is that you grow accustomed to a certain graphical level and it colours your opinion, gamers probably aren't the best people to ask about the state of graphics in games, non gamers are!

    3. "God of Gaming" mis-quote:"What we'd really like to do is calculate each ion's trajectory and reflection, eventually calculating how it would enter the gamer's iris. I mean anything else is just a hack, some hacks are better than others. When I look at something I can still ask how they did that. We're getting better though." (feel free to quote the actual carmack interview). But what we have is the truth about graphics, we are no where near the point where the people who design 3D environments can't figure out what someone else did, we might look at water and say how realistic it looks, Carmack might see some of the equations they used. His quote puts into perspective how far from reality we are, and that's just lighting! HL2 promises to have large full objects moving with a realistic set of physical perameters but really we are nowhere near true realism where all physics external and internal are based upon the same rules. In reality a door opens because force is applied and the metal in the hinges limits the range of motion, in a game the door is a "door entity" with a fixed range of motion. As long as the seperation is there we are nowhere near a realistic physics system.

    4. A message of hope: fortunatly we don't need to be anywhere near true realism, all we need to do is fool people. We are getting near the point where people can find themselves believing when they don't want to (ex:LOTR, .5 sec to figure out if a golf game is real). Pixels and refresh rates for example have passed the human ability to precieve so if you have a high res digital photograph on a screen problems aren't readily apparent. Now we just need to do that with the 10 million other aspects which seperate Reality from realitytm.

  36. "Next Gen" consoles won't be very impressive by Man+In+Black · · Score: 1

    I still don't understand why people keep hyping up the next generation of console gaming. We've already got such amazing graphical ability in all the current systems, that I don't see the point in getting anything new. Do you really think you'll notice an extra million polygons on screen? Or an extra few frames per second? If so, will that be worth $300 to you?

    Pretty much every jump in console graphics so far has been pretty major, but I really don't think this next jump will be that impressive (certainly not as impressive as the difference between NES and SNES, or when the PSX came out and made 3D graphics popular).

    Unless the PS3, X-Box Next and N5 (or whatever they end up being called) can do something really impressive beyond graphical ability, then I really don't see much point.

    --
    -"One machine can do the work of fifty ordinary men. No machine can do the work of one extraordinary man." -EH
    1. Re:"Next Gen" consoles won't be very impressive by SurgeryByNumbers · · Score: 1

      Graphically, of course the next gen consoles aren't going to be that impressive. For now at least, they're limited by the low quality of most tv sets compared to monitors.

      A bit more power is needed over the current generation to get decent framrates at HDTV quality, and the PS2 is pretty dated in terms of poly-pushing. I won't be impressed with the graphical aspect of consoles until they can still look good on a 21" monitor at 1400x1050 or so.

      Most notable improvements will probably be in the online play areas, but considering what current hardward should be capable of doing now(it's mostly game support and infrastructure issues now), that's still not worth another couple hundred bucks.

      So, yeah, I suspect I'll have my current consoles for a while.

  37. Half-Life Headaches by asdren · · Score: 1

    When half-life originally came out I tried playing it but my system was too slow which would induce headaches. This past fall I decided to give it a go. I found the graphics looked significantly dated and it still gave me a headache cause now my system was too fast >:(

  38. Graphics without the Content by Polarism · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We're pushing further and further into an "age" so to speak, where it's all about selling as much of a fake product as possible. The gaming industry is coming dangerously close to making a complete full swing to the dollar.

    Games are coming out with great graphics, but are only 10 hours long, stereotypical with no real thought given into the story. Heck, right now I hardly even play games anymore.. I just browse internet forums 90% of the time i'm on the computer.

    Content/Gameplay is becoming an 80s/90s thing, our precious relics like Resident Evil, Half Life, Even SPACE INVADERS for crying out loud. In fact, I still have loads of fun loading up Super Mario for the NES. That is still one of the top 5 most fun games i've ever played, it's just mindless fun without any stupid crap thrown in. You're Mario and you gotta jump stomp and bash your way through each level till you rescue the Princess. Simple, fun, and can keep you at it for hours on end.

    Now we're getting games like SWG, Unreal II, Max Payne 2, Contract Jack, Deus Ex: IW.

    Some of these have decent gameplay, and some do not. They are all however, extremely short except for the MMORPG I listed (SWG) which is kind of pretty but leaves you with pretty much nothing to do but chat and kill things without motivation. No real content, no reason to play, nothing that makes you want to go "Hey, I really want to go out and do this, and that, and this, because of this and that!!!".

    I didn't even mention the bugs either, most games that come out today require 4 or 5 patches before you can even think about playing them as they were meant to be played. Once they're all patched though you find that the game is only 8 hours long anyway, and you wonder where your $50 went.

    5 years ago $50 spent on many of the games that were available provided you with YEARS of replay value, and I mean REAL replay value. Now.. you blow $50 on a game and you ask yourself "what the hell happened?" after you beat it, because you just want to take the game back like it was a rental or something.

    Perhaps things will get better. If not, I know I can always bury myself the old glory games of years past.

    --
    All your base are belong to Google.
    1. Re:Graphics without the Content by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you're sick of bugs, buy a console system. I do all of my gaming lately on my gamecube and gameboy advance. I've run into an actual bug in one game, and that was it. The rock solid stability has been such a welcome change from PC gaming. Plus, I don't have to run a nasty OS just to play a game, or worry about if my game will work under winex or ever have a linux port. Oh yeah, and you can rent console games, instead of having to buy them.

      The gameboy advance especially has great games for "old school" gamers, with all of its ports of excellent SNES games as well as brand new top notch rpgs, tactical rpgs, and strategy games.

      I use my PC for just playing the only PC games that are worth playing: Nethack, Doom, and Quake 1 ;)

    2. Re:Graphics without the Content by Polarism · · Score: 1

      I don't like Consoles because you cannot mod the games, you can't play FPS games on them because of the mouse/keyboard issue. Don't tell me to buy a console, lol. That's like someone saying "hey the construction company forgot to put the basement in my house" and someone telling them "so rent an apartment!".

      --
      All your base are belong to Google.
  39. Engines by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is it me, or do you think the wide spread uptake of using game engines has slowed the overall pace of graphics development - if only from a technical stand point?

  40. graphics and games will get better in new ways by wornst · · Score: 1

    "To go back and play System Shock, Doom or Wolfenstein requires a whole re-arrangement of your thought processes to accept the difference in graphics quality." Do you agree that "...the days when graphics ruled videogames are rapidly drawing to a close"?"

    No. I am not a PC games person. I grew up on console games and pretty much relegate my playing of games to consoles. (only playing civilization and alpha centauri on a mac).

    But looking back over the evolution of games in general the refinements have been amazing. I was floored by the colors and playability when I played Rygar on my NES after having had a 2600 before. It was a quantum leap.

    The Sega Genesis which I had next wasn't as much of a leap as a refinement of the kind of games the NES had - more colors, better scrolling, etc. But the games and how they were played remained basically the same - side scrollers or sky looking down shooters.

    Skip to the N64 - which I got only for the new Zelda - and that again was a quantum leap in how games were played. First person ala Doom and Wolfenstein. 3D game play is totally different from what was available on the NES and Genesis. 8 and 16 bit pale compare to 64 bit.

    The gamecube - again only bought for Zelda and Metroid - is again a refinement. The games are VERY refined but it is only an evolution over what was available prior.

    I can only imagine what the next generation of game console will bring but I think we are in for a quantum leap type movement some time soon. What that will be, I don't know.

    But what I am saying is that graphics are very important to a game - yes a game with great graphics AND story AND playability is the best. But the story of a game includes some many things and the graphics now are an important part of that.

    It seems that the cinematics between the playable parts of games always represented the best of what a system could offer until new systems sort of made those cinematics the games of the newer systems and the newer systems had even better cinematics. And that will continue.

    But the thought processes of playing Zelda Windwaker as compared to the NES zeldas are completely different. But, even still, the original is STILL fun.

    In the end, being fun is what a game is about no matter how you have to "think" about playing it. And graphical capabilities of new systems will only make the new fun games fun in a new and different way.

  41. other tech by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Graphics is about pushing polygons to the screen, fast. More recently (in some games), it's pushing curves and spheres to the screen, and taking all of them and adding effects -- realistic lighting (and translucency, and diffraction), and more "cinematic" effects, as above.

    AI has been about finding that balance between too easy and too hard, because if a bot is too stupid, you just give it a bigger gun (so to speak) -- or some other arbitrary advantage over the player. More recently, Half-Life 2 (among other things) is making it about moving away from scripts and making the AI do lots of possible things to match the scenario, rather than just one or two (shoot or dodge).

    Good gameplay has been about having good AI (as above) and a good interface. More recently, it's been about involving the player with the content, particularly the plot, in order to make them "feel" involved on an emotional rather than visual level. Music also helps a lot with this and below.

    Good plot has been about having something well-written and fast-moving but long, which plays well with the gameplay. Now, various games are (tentatively) taking steps in the direction of freedom and non-linearity. Some of the most popular games are either multiplayer or somewhat nonlinear (gta3).

    Good multiplayer has been about having multiplayer in the first place, and having it online. More recently, it's about involving everyone in a unique way, such as a MMO game where everyone has a unique part by necessity, and games like Natural Selection, where in both cases the game plays better with more people, yet can be quite fun with only two people. (Surprisingly, a two-player NS game was the most fun I ever had with it, though I wouldn't want to repeat the experience.)

    The criterion is the same -- good graphics, good gameplay, good multiplayer (and internet), good AI and plot, etc... It's pieces of that which keep changing. I agree that the focus on graphics will decrease, but it won't go away, and even after playing ut2003, I can still look at that half-life 2 and doom 3 trailer and say "Wow". But what amazed me more was that both allies and enemies in hl2 seemed a lot less retarted, and many of them seemed human.

    If you need proof that graphics alone don't sell (though graphics + gameplay can sell quite well), look at Counter-Strike. Still _the_ most popular Internet game, last I checked.

    I will add one more category: good programming. A game that doesn't crash, and which allows one to play well on older hardware but looks great on newer hardware... Not to mention, I have two games for the PS2 which give me a loading screen only _very_ occasionally (<10 times per game), and even those could be skipped -- otherwise, you just literally walk from area to area, throughout the entire game, even though some areas have entirely different rules than others (a race minigame, for instance).

    Good technology is not shiny features, but good, hardworking features. For example: It should have a good Linux port, or genuine multi-platform support, rather than having one definitely better platform -- FFVIII for PC (only one I've seen on a PC) required a processor/video card several times what the playstation needs. It could eliminate loading times and arbitrary limitations to levelers and modders. The cube engine offers in-game, multiplayer level editing -- even while a deathmatch is going on. Little things like that add so much to the experience, although I've got a plan for several bigger ones that needs to be written up (ends up looking like Neal Stephenson's Metaverse).

    Ultimately, there will be some hype anyway, but at least in today's world, that's somewhat dampened by the increasing functionality of downloadable demos. Download the quake3 or ut2003 demos to see -- although the actual game may have "much more", the demos definitely give you an idea of a typical game.

    I agree that it's harder to go from halflife to doom than it is to go from, say, ut (or even doom 3) to halflife. I i

    --
    Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
  42. New "golden age" by geekboy2k · · Score: 1
    I see the 3D revolution "peaking" as a new gaming "golden age". Remember when 2D gaming peaked with the SNES and the Genesis (the last "golden age")? Most game designers had been working with 2D for years and really knew how to handle the medium, so content was king. They really had to push the contnent envelope then. Same thing is going to happen pretty soon with 3D. Eventually there will be fewer "NEW FEATURE X" games because it has all been explored and developers will return to making games with great content. I am not saying that isn't happening already - it is, and we already are seeing the content improve. I think that this trend will continue until the next "big thing".

    Or maybe online content is the next "big thing" and we won't see the maturing of the current medium. Who knows.

  43. Games aren't entirely focused on one thing by Peter+Cooper · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The main story here assumes that pure gameplay is everything in a game. Sure, gameplay is important, but our standards for other things go up over time too.

    I agree with what the guy says about Half-Life, and that it's still more playable than many games today.. but that's because today's games don't have as good gameplay as Half-Life. If a modern game with excellent graphics had the same game-play than Half-Life, then it'd be better. PC games have just tended to suck over the past year.

    But, no, we haven't gone far enough yet. When you can render something and it looks just like you're 'really there' (i.e. photo quality), with no lines between texture changes, and the like, then we'll be there. Of course, we'll also want excellent AI, and excellent scaling. I mean.. who wants something that looks like real life (Max Payne and Half Life 2 come surprisingly close here!) but which forces you to take a very defined route to the end?

    It's all got to scale. Not just the gameplay, not just the graphics, not just the sound.. but everything.

  44. Now, in the good old days ... by didja · · Score: 1

    Does anyone remember the FIRST Zork games. They were text my friends, uh-huh. And if I was to be realistic I would have to say that I spent months playing it. Same with Eye of the beholder (on my 486 with 4 MB ram) or the original CIV. Gameplay was EVERYTHING. I bought Unreal the awakening a while ago and found that after my initial goggling at the graphics I had finished it in a week. Shame really. Scares me to think that my video card has more ram and is faster than 80% of the computers I have ever owned.

  45. Chocolate Cake is different; "fun" isn't everythin by metroid+composite · · Score: 1
    Chocolate Cake I can only eat once before needing to buy more. Good shooters, on the other hand, (say Goldeneye) I can continue to reuse essentially endlessly. I've easily spent more than 400 hours on the games I've liked that are unique, whereas games which are overly similar to past ones I've played, and not significant improvements, tend to get the once-through 10-20 hour treatments. Think about it--how many times have you played Poker, Chess, Bridge, or Monopoly? Now have you even tried "Missile Chess" and do you feel any remorse that you have not? Exactly my point.

    Furthermore, this circulating claim that games are about fun *period* is something I'd like to dispel. Games have more potential as an art-form than either novels or movies. The PSX game Koudelka, for instance, blew me away from a literary-analysis perspective (and I did a Minor in English in undergrad so I'm not illiterate). It, however, isn't a terribly "fun" game per se. Similarly Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, and G is for Gumshoe are more fun to read than Wuthering Heights, War and Peace, and Villette. Why do we read the latter? Depth. In the case of Villette, which I am currently reading, I can say that I'm just finding it fascinating on an intellectual level. ...To use a less obscure example, can you look me straight in the eye and say you found The Fellowship of the Rings more fun to read than Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone? I'd be shocked if you could. So is Harry Potter better than Lord of the Rings? (Actually...I'd be willing to argue that, but I'm one of those people who think LotR characters to have less depth than HP characters so I'm not arguing entirely from the "fun" perspective).

    Er...yeah summing up: innovation matters (otherwise Microsoft could release 16 versions of Halo with different levels and we'd buy all 16) and "fun" isn't the sole goal of art forms (otherwise Paradise Lost would have been burned as firewood centuries ago).

  46. There's still plenty of room. by raygundan · · Score: 1

    I would say we're not even close to the "tiny return for huge effort" point. Game designers do a fantastic job of hiding our current limitations, though-- we just never see the stuff our systems can't handle. When was the last time you saw a forest scene that looked like a real forest? No, not a meadow with a handful of trees that's mostly just flat grass-- a *forest*, with hundreds of thousands of plants in view anywhere you turn.

    We need approximately a gajillion more polygons before we've got good representations of natural stuff. Buildings and open fields (deserts, etc...) look good now, but they're not the whole world. Heck, most systems couldn't handle a representation of the handful of (old, large) trees in my yard that didn't cop out on the branches and leaves.

  47. evolution of everything by sckeener · · Score: 1

    We started off with no graphics (text based games) = 0%physical realistic graphics.

    We moved on to space invaders,pong, defender, etc. games with barely an improvement in graphics =15% graphics

    Then the console wars begin and graphics were the only yard stick. We are at a point where the graphics are basically 75%+ physical realistic graphics.

    Now the kicker: to continue to specialize in graphics means a very little return to investment ratio, but it still the only yard stick.

    How do you show the execs that this game is worth continueing because of its plot if the graphics are just the same as competing game? Then you have the console producers to placate. They want the fanciest graphic games to show off their console.

    I've wandered...sorry.

    On another note the same problem that will happen to graphics happens to everything else. Take civil rights. The closer you get to total equality the less people you'll have fighting to achieve it. The closer you get to perfect graphics (realistic,) the less people you'll have working on it.

    There comes a point where only a few people care about that last %1....less money to work on the issue, but more money actually needed to fix the issue....

    On a positive note, online (and hard drives for consoles) provide the best growth for the future.

    --
    "Only one thing, is impossible for god: to find any sense in any copyright law on the planet." Mark Twain
  48. Good modelers wanted by SoopahMan · · Score: 1

    The shift will be less on the technology, and more on the quality of the models. Today's technology already offers gamemakers the opportunity to create life-like faces and expressions, that convey a great deal of info - for plot, storyline and character build-up.

    Trivial games like Tetris and Snood have lost their graphics emphasis a long time ago.

    In the world of serious games, the demand for modelers capable of delivering quality content will be insatiable, and so only the gamemakers aware of this need will release games people will find appealling.

    There are a couple of waves of "graphics technology matters" still to come though - faces, skin and clothes that can be mistaken for real, and someday, fully 3D representations.

    Between those waves, and after, competition between 3D engine license-holders will reduce the cost to create solid, concept-heavy, story-heavy games - resulting in many, many games in the field, most of which are trash, but a few of which hold "I'm in the movie" stories unmatched by any game in history - approaching the quality of the cream of the crop one can find in books today. Half-Life is an example of the beginning of this phenomenon. This story emphasis and general rise in quality of available storylines will attract more females to mainstream gaming.