Slashdot Mirror
Announcing the KDE Quality Team Project
Quique writes "The KDE Community is pleased to announce the launch of the Quality Team Project, a community of contributors who will serve as a gateway between developers and users in the KDE Project, and as a new way for people to begin contributing. KDE is a very attractive project, offering high quality software and is freely available. There is a lot of people who feel the urge to give something back, but stop in the middle of the way, frustrated by the steep learning curve. The aim of the project is to reduce these barriers by welcoming these potential contributors, and by offering documentation, support, and even guidance if requested. The objective is to support the new contributors, (programmers, documenters, testers, artists...). Have you ever wished to help KDE in some way, but never knew how? Keep reading!"
the KDE Kuality Team?
QA? Testing? This is what open source needs!
Allow me to use Slashdot as an example. Wednesday nights = push development into production. Anyone on the slashteam want to tell me what regression testing tools and system testers they use? Sure, usually (not always) there isn't a crash-and-burn build, but occasionally there is annoyances and such that are just 'thrown into' the build that people didn't know was coming and other things.
Granted, this is Robs code, let him do what he wants with it, but with a 'QA' step it just makes for a better product.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
What abbreviation will this project get? KDE-Qt?
--- Sigmentation Fault - Comments Dumped
I've been waiting for this. Last time I filed a bug report with KDE I got some snotty reply from some programmer who said I was wrong (the bug got fixed in the next release and was listed in the changelog).
bash: rtfm: command not found
i still haven't got the newest KDE 3.2 to work on my RH 7.X boxes..There's a sourceforge project called KDE-Redhat that's supposed to fill the gap but... it sure would be great if this new effort made it easy for lazy admins like me.
This seems like it's follwing on ESR's remarks on CUPS the other day but it's not. They've put a lot of planning into this including how to maintain your own CVS and which part of KDE to target for improvement first (KDE PIM).
I'd like to see some of the numerous UI critics take part in this. You know, the ones who write scathing reviews of widgets and fonts like Eurgenia?
This guy is way out there
Just stating MY opinion, but i prefer KDE over GNOME. KDE is pretty stable, although i do still have problems with (seemingly) random crashes of Konqueror, etc. This program sounds like it will make already great software even better. Sort of like the customer comment card at resturants, although i dont think they read those.
It's Kuality, damn in, don't pollute the brand.
KDE Kuality Projekt
Now if the Gnome project (and quite honestly every large project) would make a quality team, we could get some serious usability issues ironed out.
Karma whorin' since 1999
The KDE project itself doesn't do any packaging at all; they only release source-code tarballs. kde-redhat is an independent project.
Liberal (adj.): Free from bigotry; open to progress; tolerant of others.
What was that open source code auditting thing that DARPA set up, but noone showed up to do the gruntwork?
Sounds like KDE is looking for folks to come along and do all the thankless, boring shit. Spellchecking help files, testing obscure check boxes, applying different themes. Of course, all the cool design work and programming, and artistry, etc, will be done by the core team - who will, of course, accept all the credit.
Noone wants to do the monkey work. I don't want to test constantly, read bug reports, track down insignificant bugs in code thats unused 99.9% of the time. I only do so because it's my job.
Which is a shame for open source in general, because it's that QA step, all the thankless hours of gruntwork, that make the final product what it is.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
Oh yeah...
Tom Smykowski: Well-well look. I already told you: I deal with the god damn customers so the engineers don't have to. I have people skills; I am good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people?
For 20 years the Desktop Linux user experience. . .
I don't mean to be snide, really, this time I don't, but I do feel a bit compelled to ask which particular alternate universe you're living in?
KFG
I think this is exactly what open source needs. It's one thing for programmers, sysadmins and advanced users to contribute to open source projects, but there's often no easy way for the average user to help out.
With ideas like KDE Quality Team, the developers get to hear from the users and integrate features that they would like to see, as well as providing a means by which the average user can contribute. That's why Wikipedia works so well - it is possible for anybody to contribute. It's great to see the "anybody can contribute" idea extend to open source where up till now it's really only the advanced users who can contribute easily.
My operat~1 system unders~1 long filena~1 , does yours?
Linux version .01 was launched in September 1991. (timeline) Try 12.5 years.
... then I think you've underestimated that figure by a few decades.
Rather, if you mean the relative amount of time it seems that I've been thrashing around in the 'quirkiness' (to be polite) that is the linux desktop
Personally I think this is a very good idea. My programming skills are limited to simple BASH scripts so Im no use to most devel teams. But I do have good documentation/bug hunting skills. I do this as part of my job. So it is a good oppurtunity for those who do want to give something back to the OSS community but fall short in the programming area. Good Idea KDE.
right you are - but should it be that way? for newbies and technophobes -packages are the way they get stuff onto their machines
For fostering a community unlike any other. www.kde-look.org has been my first stop to see modern ideas on desktop design for years now. I am not nor have I ever been a KDE fanboy (I'm a Blackbox user) but they have managed to form a remarkable bond with the graphics design community (and the graphically inclined). They should be a model for more OSS projects and this is something we should look at as a community as a whole. There is more to good software then 1's and 0's.
Quack, quack.
Seriously I hear all kind of good things with KDE but the thing still looks way too kluttered for the average Joe.
What don't they read Slashdot? I thought we were the Quality Assurance!!
Quack, quack.
Post corrected to 10 years
:)
Ah, well, welcome back to our universe then, if not necessarily our reality.
KFG
This sounds like a good idea for an Open Source project. However, it's funny to me, because not long ago my boss was tossing around the idea of dividing the development group I work in into "The Stability Team" and "The Feature Team". Luckily the silliness of this sunk in and the idea floated away into Dumb Idea Heaven. We still joke about it though because nobody wants to get stuck with the crap job on the Stability Team, where you have to answer all the phone calls and fix the bugs in everyone else's code.
One bad monkey spoils the whole barrel.
2-3, depending on how you want to count. It's good to see KDE catching up.
IAAL,BIANLY
I'm sure the KDE people simply consider that their time is better spent on writing the code. The distributions already have lots of people who do packages, and could take care of that just fine.
I wrote this article for Newsforge, looking at the productive, social, political and spiritual aspects of the Quality Teams Project.
:-)
Some people might find it interesting...
> Hmm. That's not the GNOME that I've seen at all for the last
> year and a half (the amount of time that I've been following
> GNOME events). I've found people very helpful, very kind
> and patient with me as I've learned, and very willing to help
> me on my level.
That depends in what ways you participate to GNOME and with what kind of people you had contacts with.
I for my own speak about (well they know who I mean... to not namecall them here). I for my own had very bad expiriences with some individual people who made the entire GNOME project more than disgusting. I can tell you where some of these people where publicly namecalling me, slandering me, and simply caused a bad reputation around me.
Not just me also others. Some of them left GNOME others still silently participate to it. I think with one year and a half you didn't participated well enough with those I had to deal with.
GNOME is a big project there are a lot of people participating to it, from different countries, with different skils, with different well whatever. Some of these people who claim themselves to have some sort of 'god' status are more than ***** assholes (to name it the way it is). I feel sorry for all the people who want to do something good for GNOME and join the gnome-love channel for becoming part of GNOME but the only aim of this is to rip them off because the GNOME 2.6 release is close infront of the door and some urgent things should get fixed.
None of these people will ever reach a status where they can shape GNOME or participate in a way to it so they get the feeling to be actually PART of it or their work being honoured.
I sometimes really wish that there are more people within the GNOME community who stands up and let the world know what's really going on rather than keeping shut and have the stuff continue the way it currently continues.
Well if you want more information I do reconsider emailing me I will forward everything required to you to make you understand me and get an own impression about what GNOME really is.
In case anyone is seriously interested, please grab CVSGnome as script and dig out the eMail address inside and write me. I will forward everything that confirms what I say. It's hard to explain everything. Showing facts is what may help people understand.
THE NAME.
r y ...and pretty much anything else obsessively beginning with "K" for absolutely no reason. Thank god Gnome isn't like this.
KDE is an awful name, as are:
KOffice
Killustrator
Kougar
Kroupware
Kalle
KTetris
Being a 10 year veteran of QA/Testing and holding a CS degree, I have long wondered where QA would fit into OSS. And by "QA" I don't just mean testing, there is a lot more to it than that. Here are some topics that would need to be addressed:
What is the development process? Is it documented?
What types of estimation procedures do you do?
What is the SCM process? Is it documented?
What is the review/inspection process for all artifacts?
Are there software requirements? Are they inspected/reviewed?
Are there development plans/design docs? Are they inspected/reviewed?
Are there code reviews?
What are your defect escape rates?
What is your plan for alpha/beta testing?
What is your release schedule?
I think I could go on, but you get the idea. If you want solid, defect-finding, QA people who can improve your product, you'll be asked questions like these. If you just want someone who will run a few regression tests against your product before you put it on a website, then you are looking for some software testers. I am not saying that all of those things are necessary, but they might be. Maybe all of this stuff is archaic and applies only to the proprietary model, I don't know. I know that is what I have worked in for the last 10 years. I don't know if anyone has asked these questions of an OSS project, or done any research into if they need to be asked.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
I got tired waiting for kde 3.2 rpms for Mandrake 9.2. they were not available in the Mandrake-club, despite numerous votes for it. (Rant : Made me wonder what is the point of paying money for the club & voting for RPMs../rant)
Anyways, downloaded Konstruct, told it where I want it to install, and
cd meta/everything; make install
that is it! The download/patch/compile/install went for 2 days!! And now I have a shiny kde 3.2 desktop to play around with.
I didn't have to delete my stock Mandrake kde rpms (too much hassel with all the dependancies).
Given how much trouble we have @ work on getting builds to work, I have gained enormous respect for Konstruct; it makes installing KDE a snap (okay a 2 day long snap:-)
Well, I guess I'm asking for ideas here. In an open-source proj like this, you obviously want people to choose what they want to do or how they want to contribute. When you do that, one of the biggest problem is that, there are some parts of the project that everybody tries to avoid.
I've tried to manage a project, in a similar way, on a very small scale though (~30 people). Everybody wanted to own the coolest parts of the project. What I eventually ended up doing is tying cool parts with not-so-cool parts. So, if you choose the cool part, you automatically also own the corresponding not-so-cool part.
I'm looking for more ideas. May be some brainstorming would help here.
My other dog is a Wienerschnitzel.
Showing facts is what may help people understand.
As long as you show *all* facts, Ali. Your years trolling lists, forums and even bugzilla don't speak very well for you, and justify your reputation much more than any reaction from gnome developers.
You cause your own problems, you're not a victim, even if you want to look as a martyr.
Has anybody taken a look at the Gnome HIG? They're great, even specifying seemingly mundane aspects such as the amount of pixels between an alert icon and text message on a popup dialog box.
These things do matter, whether consciously or not, to users.
I know this is a troll.
But to everyone else, seriously, compare a screenshot of KDE with open apps to a screenshot of OS X with open apps. It's like night and day. We gotta work on an attractive and intuitive interface.
Wow, that has been standardized in KDE since September 23, 1999 :)
:)
It's done directly inside of the code in KDE however.
This is one of the reasons why the KDE style guide is shorter than GNOME's HIG; most of the GUI design aspects of KDE are enforced automatically while in GNOME, it is reliant on the programmer. I have to admit though, the HIG is great for PR
KDE has User Interface Guidelines since more than 4 years. These guidelines are a bit outdated, but they are followed by almost all applications within KDE. This is one of the reasons why KDE applications are quite consistent with each other. KDE has been dedicated towards usability since its foundation, but usability was never the only goal. KDE was never perfect, but its usability has been constantly improving every version. Compared to most other PC software, KDE has always been doing reasonably well in terms of usability.
True. The GNOME project made a good decision when they introduced HIG, even if many GNOME users were very angry at the time. Removing functionality was one of the main methods of solving GNOME's early usability problems, which should only be done if there is really no other way to solve usability problems.
Most people complaining about KDE's usability are suggesting the same strategy for KDE. I don't agree with this. Solving usability issues in other ways is more difficult and takes more time, but the end result will be better if we stop telling others "I know better than you that you don't need this". But anyway, I agree that having good user interface guidelines is important.
My impression is very different. The Quality team idea has been greeted with a lot of very positive responses among the KDE developers. There is a lot of interest in this within the KDE project.
Reading through the site, I realize that two important elements of QA are missing. They won't be as fun to do, but it would be great if someone did them.
1) Requirements and specifications. Also known as what you need before you start coding. Otherwise known as the official arbiter of whether the program is doing what it is supposed to be doing.
This is thankless gruntwork, but it is very valuable. Some KDE apps already have some, but all need them. Take an email client for example. Go grab all the RFC's relevant to POP3, IMAP, etc, and distill them down into a set of requirements stating what the program is supposed to do. Open Source is informal enough that we could get away with combining requirements and specifications into one document.
2) Test procedures. Now take that requirements document and write a comprehensive test procedure. Include regression testing. Now anyone can take this procedure and simply execute it to find out if the program follows its requirements. If a step fails, log a detailed bug that states which requirement is not met.
Not only would these two things aid the the developer in creating and improving the application, they would also improve the quality of bug reports. Instead of bug reports saying "it doesn't do what I think it should do", you get bug reports saying "it does x but the requirements say do y." If the applications still doesn't do what you want it to do, examine the requirements yourself, and if they aren't complete, propose a new one.
Requirements are your road map, and test procedures are the person in the passenger seat reading it to make sure you take the correct exit to Albuquerque.
Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
I am the one who is currently putting the most effort into the KDE Quality Team implementation, so I am qualified to speak for the project:
Let's start by making something clear:
The main idea is not to build a QA project inside KDE. The main idea is to support and embrace new contributors with any background, and help to organize their efforts. For instance: Any doubts about the docbook? We are glad to help. Do you want feedback on your work? We are happy to provide. Looking for guidance? Hop in!
We don't want to point what is good for you: we try to present you with a long list of things one can do to help, and organize these efforts.
The recommended approach for non programmers is different from other projects: it is more like the project manager in a company than of a task specialist. In other words think of acting upon the whole of Kontact instead of acting upon the context help for the whole KDE project. We recognize that the main tool for helping an application is knowing it well. A quick look at the activities list, presenting the requirements for performing the tasks, is sufficient to prove that.
http://quality.kde.org/develop/modules/
Yes, the activities include QA. But this is just one of the activities. Hope this helps to avoid confusion with GNOME's bugsquad (also nice, but not related: it is a different concept).
I'm only going to address one part of your post.
Gnome was created because KDE was based on QT which was not free software. As far as I understand it, QT is now free though the port for windows in not, someone could port the GPL QT onto windows but no-one has (that I have heard of) and until that happens Gnome/GTK still has a reason to exist even if it is inferior.As for Novell's purchase of Ximian, there are multiple things to consider. First, Ximian is not Gnome like Trolltech is QT so Novell can do very little to impact Gnome. Secondly Novell have their original business, Ximian and Suse to bring into co-existance. I suspect that you will see them focusing on building a Suse product line which is based on Free software, but interoperates flawlessly with all the proprietary solutions they have. They will certainly be looking for per seat charges for supported solutions, whether proprietary or free, but I doubt you will see them dropping free software tools which they can exploit to provide a complete solution simply out of spite, surely their purchases show that they want to take advantage of the free software world, even if they mightn't want to give away their work (which is no problem as long as the work remains GPL, each recipient can decide what to do with it).
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
I've seen this posted before. Hell, the last paragraph talks about some sort of alpha of Gnome and a new version that's going to be released in "December." Gnome 2.6 is due out this month.
I'm sure we could all come up with the same kind of list for KDE. Both projects have endless usability issues.
It is recommended that companies spend 10% of their development budget on researching the usability of their products. Every dollar that is spent on usability saves $100 in support costs.
Red Hat has spent over $700,000,000 buying out a compiler company and a few silly dot coms. They recently sold $500,000,000 in bonds. Their programmers tell me the reason why their software has so many usability problems is that they "can't afford to hire HCI people".
SuSe was bought out for $200,000,000. From what I have heard from other user interaction people, the usability of YaST is an absolute disgrace. Doesn't seem like SuSe is spending money for a usability dept either.
Both of these companies claim to be making desktop software that is perfectly usable and perfectly fit for a grandmother or a secretary. They are both going to try like hell to replace everyone's Windows desktop with Linux. Many of the desktops they are currently looking to replace are those in businesses, where the end-user won't have the "don't want to use it, don't choose it" recourse that most linux zealots claim people have.
Both these companies already spend wads of money hiring people like kernel hackers and web server programmers. To ask these companies to spend equivalent amounts on usability is not, in my opinion, is perfectly justified. If they feel that only "important" technical fields like kernel hacking deserve funding, then should at least have the decency to pay to switch their existing desktop customers back to Windows.
.
Ergonomica Auctorita Illico!
* The 5-10 second load-time for KDE apps
This is a legitimate problem, though getting much better. With prelinking, load times are closer to 2-3 seconds rather than 5-10.
* The 4 second load time just to open a folder
Depends on the size of the folder. Normal-sized folders open pretty much instantly on my machine. Performance on large folders (/usr/bin with thousands of items) could be improved, though.
* The cramped and embarrassing K menu, with a 100 different groups and completely illogical redundancies like "Preferences," "System Settings," and "Control Center"
Um, my stock Debian KMenu has a dozen folders. "Preferences" is gone in 3.2. There is a "settings" folder and a "system" folder, which is logical --- one is for preferences, the other is for system utilities. Kinda analagous to Windows's "Control Panel" and "Accessories/System Tools" And "Control Center" is an entry in "Settings"! Are you sure you're not mistaking the quick- access area at the top for default menu items? And the categories seem perfectly logical to me. "Graphics," "internet," "multimedia," etc. Sounds perfectly logical to me. Certainly, more logical than the Windows method of giving each company a top-level entry in the menu.
* The poor naming scheme that--despite close to five years of bitching--hasn't been changed in favor of something sane
KDE will drop the 'k' when GNOME drops the 'g', Apple drops the 'i', and Microsoft drops the 'MS'. Remember, its "MS Word" not just "Word."
* The convoluted Control Center that is an example of poor interface design with 3,000 items and subitems, grouped together under a cursor that for some reason won't stop changing to the hand icon
Actually, having all preferences in one program seems a lot more easy to navigate for me than a folder full of applets, one for each task. Work is on-going to make KControl more logical (there was an OSNews entry recently) but the "centralized control" aspect will remain. And Microsoft does it too --- consider the Windows NT administration console.
* The fact that the cursor changes to a hand icon when it moves over taskbar buttons (cursor changes are confusing, disorienting, and annoying to newbies and power users alike)
The cursor changes to know when you can click on something. And you pulled that "cursor changes are confusing" thing out of your ass. People manage to use Internet Explorer on a daily basis with the cursor changing over links. You just don't like it because its different from what you're used to.
* The fact that when you tell KDE to put application menus at the top like MacOS...which is faster than slowing the cursor and pinpointing a menu in a floating window like in WindowsWorks fine on my machine. I'm guessing that you're not running 3.2...
* The seeming need for every new version of KDE to add five more sidebars, buttons, and features to KPanel/Konquerer/anything else beginning with K, instead of cleaning the interface and making things faster
Every release of KDE since 2.0 has gotten faster. Every release of KDE since 3.0 has become more streamlined.
I could go on and on. I don't get why it is so slow.
KDE isn't slow. Its got slow load-times for applications, but everything else is fast. In terms of user responsiveness, I find KDE to be faster than XP. In terms of redraw, KDE is even faster than XP. For example, try opening up two IE windows to Slashdot, one on top of the other. Resizing the top window will cause the bottom window blank --- for several seconds if you do it at the right speed. On my KDE, Konqueror doesn't do that.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
KDE will never be taken seriously because its name is a TLA? I guess we'd better tell IBM, the FBI, the CIA, the DEA, CBS, the NFL and thousands of other organizations that they're doomed to failure because of their names.
Maybe they should all rename themselves with words with meanings like "One of a fabled race of dwarflike creatures who live underground and guard treasure hoards." Then they'll be taken seriously.
Kde or any other standard linux desktop environnement should have in common a really high level and *simple* programming language.
Many not-so-skilled programmers are developing thousands of apps usefull-for-enduser under windows with visual basic.
No one should underevalutate the number of VB-only coders.
Maybe VB is not the most used language in big windows based apps projects, but some programmers begin with VB and eventually learn C and/or C++, ASM, Java.
Even if the big projects arent coded in VB, there is actually a couple of good programs sold by vb coders.
If there was an easy to use and learn language like VB under the linux desktops, the open source community could profit of many more (begginers)coders, which is good.
i dont think it could be an enormous differance for the moment if we think about the linux desktop solution popularity, but it could for sure accelerate this solution visibility at middle-term, which is good.
What do you think about it?
1) The file dialog. KDE 0.x ALPHAs had a better file dialog than gnome! Today, the KDE one is the best file dialgog in existance, with influence from all desktops.
See this screenshot for the fileselector for GNOME 2.6.
And about the KDE file selector: horizontal scrolling is a bug, not a feature. Even if it is configurable, it's still a bug.
2) More apps! KDE comes with over 150 Apps in the full install, with applications for all fields, plus its sleak integration with non kde apps (eg gimp, openoffice) make things more consistant.
Remember, it's a d-e-s-k-t-o-p. And a standard desktop must be shipped with a minimum of apps (one for every task), just to keep it simple. A whole application suite is something different, something that scares off most people. GNOME's got Epiphany for web-browsing, and if you're a power user you can install Galeon. It's got Gedit because you'll use Vim or Emacs or some IDE anyway if you're serious about editing.
3) Configureable as hell. The KDE control center has loads of knobs/dials/sliders and boxes to fiddle with, yet keeps things elegent. In gnome, half the options don't exisit and you are rudley told "use gconf-editor n00b by gnome zealots" (not joking about this, telling the truth gets you a -1, troll and footnotes).
Or: Not enough knowledge to know what's good? GNOME doesn't have all these options, but I don't need them because the default is just usable. In return I get menu's that are clean and easy to read, speeding up my experience with the desktop. Even if I had taken the time to fully configure KDE, that wouldn't take the overload of options away.
4) I-kandy! The Kde eye candy is really powerful, with styles such as dotNEt, mosfet liquid, kermamik, Crystal and more. Looking at art.gnome.org [gnome.org] reveals the same old theme in different colours. Since gnome dosen't provide a colour changing dialog for its widgets most "themes" are just colour changes. The Crystal from CVS is an Aqua killer, your eyes will want to love it.
My eyes hate crystal-like themes with too many colours, but that's personal. Like I implied before, I like a desktop to be really on the background, not overwhelming me with options and colors and styles and configurabilities. I install a desktop to run applications, not to run the desktop itself. And btw, when I tried KDE 3.2 last week, I saw the same old icons as KDE 1.x for the control-center, and I could still choose between two old KDE1 themes (but that didn't work anymore afaik)
This news was not quite new to me - I can't provide the link, but there was nice explanation on KDE traffic (i.e. digest of several KDE mailing lists).
First, they were not sure about the name at all. They needed some "department" that will improve communication between users and developers. Some sort of people who know both sides, but who are not programmers. And they did not know how to call it. As I read now, they choose Q.T.
For an OSS project, KDE is really well documented, you may really easily contact their programmers, support community seems to be nice and usefull; this should be "final touch".
This team reminds me to my last position in my old company - I was kinda liaison officer between two teams. My team needed some stuff from them, and we needed someone to force them to make it work. It is much easier to have someone who is familiar with both products, than to depend on existing QA dept (maybe it was problem that we had poor QA team).
Anyway, this new team seems like great idea. No matter that I like programming, it would be really hard to me to become so familiar with Qt/KDE enough to be usefull KDE programmer. But even at this stage, I believe that I already could be KDE QT member. So, there must be other people like me.
Thus, KDE will be even better.
No sig today.
"* The poor naming scheme that--despite close to five years of bitching--hasn't been changed in favor of something sane
KDE will drop the 'k' when GNOME drops the 'g', Apple drops the 'i', and Microsoft drops the 'MS'. Remember, its "MS Word" not just "Word.""
What poor naming scheme? When I open my menu I see items like Text Editor, Web Browser, Calculator, Image Viewer. They launch gedit, epiphany, gcalctool and eog, but the menu don't mention anything about the app names.
In KDE, you see menu items like "Kate (Text Editr)" and "Konqueror (Web Browser)". The function is included right in the menu.
I don't see the problem.