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A Ready-Made MythTV Set-Top Box in Australia
Anonymous Coward writes "Australian Personal Computer magazine published a review of a new all-in-one set-top-box based on linux.
A quick analysis of the device yields some cheats/hacks that not only allow you to enable the advertisment skipping feature they disabled, but could allow system compromise.
The system also runs a GPL version of MythTV - anyone else see any licensing issues?" Only if they don't follow the GPL.
looking at their downloads page it seems that they dont have the source listed, only iso's and HMC Filters for Windows. Unless someone else sees a link for the source?
I am 100% certain they are both smoking from Darl's pipe and paying Darl's fees...
Damn!
I mean admittadly, it's a problem that they don't clearly mention and link to MythTV's webpage or whatever, but if it's an unmodified binary built from source readily available, wouldn't they just need to point to it?
Call me cheap, but this better do a lot for that much.
Don't get your panties in a twist every time someone is making money with a method that involves the GPL. Instead of asking the dumbass question "anyone else see any licensing issues?", do some research yourself for fuck's sake.
Atomic Magazine this month had a cover CD featuring a modified Knoppix distro for MythTV. Haven't checked it out yet, but looks quite interesting.
I no longer use my old Series 1 tivo. The hacks are nice, but with something based on a PC, the sky's the limit.
Currently, I'm using SageTV It's a PC based DVR software package. With it, I can currently;
- Record two standard def stations, and a high def station at the same time while watching a fourth video of any type. (Obviously, this requires having two tuners and an HDTV tuner.)
- Record standard TV to MPEG-2, MPEG-1, or just about any other format. This makes it easier to make VCDs, DVDs, or just play the program back on a standard PC.
- Playback using Dscalar to deinterlace the video.
- Play DVDs
- Play DivX
- Record shows as favorites (just like season passes) or let SageTV record things based on my past viewing habits (much like tivo's suggestions only I don't have to bother with thumbs up and down buttons)
- Do all of the above with an integrated schedule, which is free. No need to pay a monthly fee.
- Play and manage my MP3 library (I think you can do ogg, ape, etc. with some tweaks to the config)
- Stream video and audio to another PC over my LAN.
I'm sure I'm missing much more. This thing does way more than any tivo, even a hacked tivo, and it's constantly being expanded. It surpasses TiVo and ReplyTV in every way. I've even found it to be more flexible than MythTV and Showstopper (though they do have a few benefits in some areas.)
according to the GPL...I thought they only had to provide source to paying customers at their request. No one ever said they had to offer it up for free...
One of the paragraphs reads like it might be possible, if it were unmodified, for them to say "Binary and Source forms are available here" and point at MythTV's site. It says if binary or source is made available by offering access to copy from a designated site... which I misread slightly, but it does seem to imply that the site should be yours. Regardless, they aren't required to post the source code on their site, or anything, not even include it. Assuming they have a little note somewhere saying "The source is availabe, at media-cost, from *******"
I've been waiting for someone to ship a box based on MythTV. But these guys are definately on the low end of the food chain. I'd hope that companies shipping MythTV-based boxes would have enough integrity/brains to contribute to the project, though, rather than just take the software sell a product based on it. I'd also hope that someone would have the brains to make a more optimized system (custom motherboard and plastics, etc.) rather than ship a generic shuttle case. I guess that this does save some effort configuring hardware and software...
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
... yes. I'm an idiot for trusting an anonymous coward link. it's the first bogus debian redirect I've seen. Fool me once, shame on me, etc. etc.
click-clack, front and back. I'm not moving this car otherwise.
The system also runs a GPL version of MythTV - anyone else see any licensing issues?
Commercial does not mean proprietary. Selling commercial products using Open Source is great - it often helps pay OSS programmers rent.
Why on earth do the Slashbots immediately assume anyone selling OSS is a) violating the GPL and b) evil ?
When are they going to realize that if I am going to buy something meant to go into my home theater, it needs to fit in. That means is should be ~19" x 2-5" not some silly ass cube, it looks like a bookshelf unit.
I heard about this a bit early - I did some digging around on their website.
The openly admit it runs MythTV (once you find the comments), and that the source code is available ON the device itself...
Technically speaking, I think that actually qualifies for compliance.
There was a large thread about this recently on the mythtv user's forum.
I can't seem to find there modified source code
This is not the first time Isaac at MythTV has had to deal with this. There are two other rip offs floating around...
*sigh*
I'm personally quite happy with my homemade version, and it was a hell of alot cheaper. Can anyone say Knoppmyth (-;
Gamblers Forum
Its amusing how many of your cry about how Linux is still lacking desktop penetration, yet you are quick to run anybody down using it to make a product for PROFIT (Perish the thought!). Lay down your purism, pour your haterade down the drain and sit back and enjoy the fact that hardly anybody will buy that overpriced box.. Would you all rather it was running windows? I would! I wish it was running on window ME with 32 megs of ram for the power Tivo user. Yeh baby. Some nice pointed out specs on the site crediting those who have paved their way (ie Redhat etc) might be good though.
Finally.... a story about a media server that won't have a thread complaining that it doesn't support ogg/vorbis.
Nice to see that in there...
I lay awake last night wondering where the sun had gone, then it dawned on me.
The GPL doesn't give any protection from getting ripped off(while still re-releases are under the GPL), and forbids authors from adding stipulations to the licence that would let you stop people from ripping you off.
How do you think people fork under a different name?
I still fail to see how this is not being sold by a US based company for $500 at every best buy in the country
What happens if you try to watch Mythbusters on MythTV? Something like matter-antimatter annihilation?
In Soviet Russia, Chuck Norris will still kick your ass.
you can publish hardware projects, and link to software, or suggest that software is available, without breaking any law. YOU may be breaking the law if you use a particular conbination of hardware and software illegally. Another example is projects that program smart-cards, software is not provided with the hardware.
There was an unknown error in the submission.
And I don't know if 'Only if they don't follow the GPL.' was added later or not, but it looks like the editor knew it wasn't necessarily an issue too. Not to bang on you (or anyone in particular) but what I'm getting a little tired of is all the knee jerk 'your just having a knee jerk' comments lately. Its like on Slashdot it used to be cool to be a Linux zealot, but now its more in fashion to be an anti-Linux-zealot zealot. Its making my head spin. ;-)
Quack, quack.
Andrew Jamieson who works for the company in question posted to the mythtv list today and they have the full intention of being GPL compilent (if they're not already!).
According to the email, the developer sent a message to Issac (lead developer for Myth) and I'm assuming that they're going to be working together to make Myth a better product.
Don't listen to the 'tards, this is good for Mythtv.
--Ajay
I notice that on your site (at least the one linked to from your /. profile) that the Movible Type Identifer is down at the bottom of the page. On my 21" 1280x1024 monitor in a maximized window I can not see it unless I shrink the text size down. So does that make your site shady?
Ok at first I was like "cool, sounds neat" then I saw the pricing and then I did my worst Shaggy impression "ZOIKS Scooby that fucker is expensive" (ok I did say worst).
While I applaud most any corporate/public/front page getting use of open source stuff, I just can't see anyone buying this - I mean yowza, talk about expensive.
Or does the Aussie dollar trade like 3 to 1 for US dollars (ok I'm a typical American and don't know what other money is "worth" but I thought Aussie dollars were in the ballpark of the same value as US).
Still kinda neat though, however it does just look like one of those little Shuttle "cubes" with some open source hacked up software on it.
--- www.f-theocean.com
The MythTV project, and Isaac in particular are aware of this project.
Seems to me like he put it at the front page at the bottom of the menu. The place were you typically put copyright notices.
Besides I think his point was that it's common desency to give credit when it's due. If you make a product based on other peoples work because they are generous enough to allow you to do that they you could give them a reference in return. The site linked in the article doesn't seem to contain any referense to MythTV, which is (IMHO) pretty damned low of them.
Seems like they would have to be running modified source, because 0.13 had commercial skipping as a menu option.
A little more disturbing is that they serve their own TV listings - the possibilities for ad injection abound.
How come EVERY SECOND POST on /. now is about some boring Australian shit? It wouldn't be so bad if any of the stories were relevant or vaguely interesting, but they aren't...they always seem like a desperately-biased editor's barrel-scrapings.
Slashdot is a global news site.
If you are going to whinge, then complain about the fact that a large proportion of stories are US-biased "barrel-scrapings" as well. Since when was this slashdot.org.us?
.org is an international TLD.
That's 1,300 US dollars. Lets just say that it isn't ever going to be a competitor to Tivo.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
I'm know I'm gonna be labelled a troll, but I got karma to burn . .
</typical slashdot mod me up statment>
I'm really upset that they are commercializing the GPL. Jeez. But, actually, if they do decide to commercialize the GPL, I hope they use GTK because it's commercial friendly and then don't have to open the source. Which makes me angry 'cause they are not sharing their source with anyone. Why won't they open their source? What do they think this is? M$-land?
Some people.
<disclaimer for the humor impaired>
laugh people, it's a joke
</disclaimer for the humor impaired>
-------------
Developer's Note
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This is slashdot logic version 0.1 released under the GPL. I am accepting patches.
I found this to be a good online Currency Converter.
It's a shame it looks to be analog only. Especially with the amount of Widescreen Digital and High definition content being broadcast in areas of Australia.
That the creator of Myth TV is currently out of work, I would like to see some type of money go to him from this.
NTSC is dead, and all the variants.
They're walking, but they're zombies.
Get a TV card for Linux that does ATSC.
Get a decent antenna.
That old ghosting NTSC antenna might actually work for ATSC.
Write a program to record your favorite shows.
You won't want to see regular TV after ATSC.
DVD-grade is the bottom end of the resolution.
The higher resolutions look even better, and most
US broadcast networks aren't so cheap as FOX.
So make all the set top boxes you want for NTSC
or PAL or whatever old blurry standard you want.
I'm kicking 1950's grade resolution to the curb.
The time is now for 21st century television.
Before I bought one of these I would need:
1 and 3 are the ones I'm not confident I'd be able to cheaply and easily do on a homebrew box.
How is this a troll?? I don't get it.
Given that Grid-layouts of TV times are patented, and the TV scheduling data which xmltv (the MythTV backend screen scraper) obtains for MythTV are copyrighted by Tribune, and it's therefore most likely illegal to use that data in this manner... ... well, just how long is MythTV going to last?
There's a reason you have to buy a subscription for a TiVo or a ReplayTV - because that guide data costs money, and the guide display patent royalties need to be paid.
I can't see MythTV surviving too long if Tribune start complaining - or TiVo or ReplayTV decide to push Tribune to complain about the use of the guide data for free.
Just a thought...
Coming soon - pyrogyra
Maybe there's a "watchdog" on the Myth system that reboots the system if Myth dies. The user won't want to wait for the system to reboot every time that they fast forward too quickly (happens on mine) or 'activate' some other bug.
Take the MediaMVP by Hauppauge. It's a Linux-based device designed for use by the "average user". How do they keep it up to date? Well, very little OS or software is on the unit itself. It netboots off a server you run on one of your PCs. The server (Windows app) checks for updates from Hauppauge's site, and when it gets one, it just loads it to the MediaMVP the next time it boots.
Obviously, you wouldn't want to require every user to have a LAN connection to an always-on home computer for net booting (or would you?). Besides, the whole Linux/Myth suite (remember, we need X too) would be a pretty hefty network transfer. With a "closed" device like this one, it'll be hard for users to install bugfixes, patch security holes, etc. etc. without being experienced in Linux (think power user instead of grandma).
I think the Home Media Center/re is going to need some sort of update method for both Myth and Linux. One little annoying bug would drive me crazy if there was nothing I could do about it.
-- If you can read this, you are too close to my signature.
You are somewhat close but if you don't know what you are taling about and are not willing to READ the GPL, stop posting "I thoughts". They can EITHER
1) Provide the source with the binaries to everyone they give the binary to ("customers") and not place restrictions on who they give it to.
or
2) They can provide a written offer to those that they give the binary to to get access to the source for a "reasonable" copying fee. This is where the third party stuff starts coming in because now third parties can use this written offer to request and get the source from the vendor
The relevant section of the GPL says
--- Liberty in our Lifetime
So what you're saying, timothy, if I understand you correctly, is that they will only have licensing issues with a piece of GPL software if they don't follow the terms in the GPL license?
~~~~~ BigLig2? You mean there's another one of me?
Is a pattern of posting on ./:
"The system also runs a GPL version of MythTV - anyone else see any licensing issues?"
These are BIASED reporting tactics.
Over the past couple of months I've been putting together a MythTV system at home. My overall impression is that it's a fantastic piece of software, that's getting better by the week
My hardware cost (in the UK) was around 600GBP, including:
semi-posh case from Coolermaster that looks good under the telly
AMD Athlon XP2200 based system
160gig hdd
Hauppauge PVR350 MPEG2 encoder/decoder
which makes this article's product seem very competitive, really (at, what, ~500GBP?). Especially considering the fact that mine took days and days of configuration (and I'd humbly consider myself to be a GNU/Linux pro) to get it 'just right', and some things still don't work properly (e.g. DVD menus).
As for the advert skipping thing... I don't actually use it. I have my Myth's remote control configured with a button that skips forward by one minute, and another that skips backwards by 10 seconds. This means I get to an ad break, skip, skip, skip, possibly skip backwards a couple of times then back to CSI :-)
I think we should welcome the incorporation of maturing OSS projects such as this into commercial products. There will surely be positive feedback to the community in the way of features and bugfixes. Don't give them hassle over the lack of ad-skipping - it surprises me just how much people forget how much of the excellent Internet and TV programming is brought to us through this revenue stream and we take it for granted.
Oh, yeah, there's some crap programming too, but that's why I have a digital video recorder to avoid it all :-p
I tried building a mini-itx based PVR solution, using both freevo and mythtv, last summer. I found that the mini-itx board that I purchased just didn't have the speed to support the application. Granted the processor was a Via C3 running at 800MHz, but I thought that should be pretty good, since alot of people talked about running these things on Celeron 700s, etc. But alas, no ... the mini-itx has now been relegated to serving as an MP3 server/storage box.
Absolutely - look at "Java Desktop" (aka 'Linux', 'Gnome') for an example. Many projects go as far as to ask that you rename any forks to avoid confusion.
At the end of the day these guys are not selling MythTV. They are selling an appliance. It happens to run MythTV and come with an ISO including the sources (now..), but to most users its a box that records tv programs.
A question for other aussie /.'ers - what other alternative are availble for us down under?
I don't want a PC in the living room, so I like the form factor of this box, but bloddy hell, $1700 entry level? The device/box needs to be simple enough that my little cousins (5 year old) can come over and figure how to watch all the simpsons episodes.
I know there are numerous news groups/email lists around getting UK TiVo's working, is this the most only option at this point in time?
Let's not forget SUPPORT. These guys are buying, building, packaging, and shipping this device. They are also providing a warranty, some form of support, and at some point they want to be able to eat. In fact they would probably like to live somewhat comfortably as opposed to just eating and their employees probably feel about the same way. Who's guide service does it use - are they also paying for that and it's attendant bandwidth too? Is there a subscription fee for that service or not? If they point to it they pay for it somehow so that's a cost as well. If they don't have commited guide service and it goes away they have to deal with a bunch of angry customers so one way or another it's a cost to them.
Seems to me that they're doing this "right" so far as the GPL is concerned and they even spell out in their warranty what they feel is okay and not with regards to modifying the software. They haven't completely hacked out the ability to skip commercials either, just sort of turned it off in a way a smart consumer could turn it back on.
Frankly - this sounds alot like a damned nice ReplayTV replacement if the guide service is available. for awhile now I've used a Replay and now a DirecTIVO but have heard of MythTV. I have never set one up though as I simply didn't want the hassle - with a box like this being built in a SMART fashion many people such as myself could purchase it and get interested in MythTV development. Heck, with a sort of "standard" hardware platform out there the MythTV project could develop all sorts of interesting features geared toward it and these guys might even make enough dough to be able to help support that! they are apparenty WELL aware of the GPL and it looks like they tried to honor it, is there any reason to think they wouldn't be willing to support the project in turn if they manage to make some decent money here?
Isn't this sort of the way everyone would like to see good Open Source projects go? Personally this sounds really cool to me - if it were on a DIRECT box somehow or maybe a cable receiver with two tuners I'd be interested in purchasing one!
Build it, Drive it, Improve it! Hybridz.org
Why not just build your own media/Home theather PC? It's easy, far more flexible and there are some great freeware apps to do so like
http://www.myhtpc.net
There's a whole community built around these things. Check this out:
http://www.htpcnews.com
I'm planning a DIY nano-itx box very similar to this one. I already have a mini-itx PVR, but I'm looking to make a very tiny, very quiet box now.
Since the nano-itx boards only have a mini-PCI slot, I'm planning on using USB for any add-ons, including the TV tuner. Are there any good USB tuners available for under $100? It looks like the WinTV USB is good, but sells for about $180. There are others for as cheap as $50, but all the reviews say they suck.
Anybody have luck with any USB tuners?
"you'd think that they'd want to do more than simply ship MythTV"
From some very recent posts on the MythTV mailing list, it sounds like they've in fact made at least some enhancements to the software (IR handling), and are going to contribute back to the project. They're also providing (legit!) australian listing data. Yay!
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
For one good reason.
:D
When this myth box breaks and your girlfriend can't watch her favorite show, it's not your fault!
apologies to all the geeks without girlfriends... didn't mean to rub your nose in it
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
I wonder if the folks at Hauppauge can see a spike in sales after every time a "Homebrewed PVR!" story pops up on Slashdot. I know every time someone posts a story like this I want to run to Microcenter and buy a PVR-250.
Nailer, you make a great point. There is a general attitude from a lot of people that anything you do to make a profit is evil. And we should be ashamed for anything we do for profitability. Once anything "goes corporate", it is no good. Yeah, I will be the first to admit that there are some evil people working in corporations. Money makes people do bad things. I think we all know that. But most of us live in a capitalistic, free market economy. Well, we all gotta live and support oursevles/families. Would you rather everyone be lazy and not try to work? There is nothing wrong with earning an honest buck. This company is not going to become the next M$ by selling MythTV boxes. Working hard and adding value are good things. Customers reward this by buying your product. Making the PVR installation easier is a value-added benefit. And aren't we all supposed to make sure we like our careers? I mean, you must like what you do to be happy at work. Well, I think the only reason we read slashdot is because we like to. And we use OSS because we like to. Therefore, wouldn't all of us be happy with careers related to OSS? So maybe the Australian PVR company isn't perfect, but don't they deserve a little recognition and awe?
I think a lot of people are missing the point with this..... For Linux fans, even part-timers like myself, EVERY PRODUCT like this is a victory. This is a cool product, a cool idea, and a nice tip-o-the hat to the MythTV team- someone thinks their product is ready for prime time.
I know licensing is important, but it seems to me that we need to support first and ask questions later. Every company that publishes a viable linux-based app or hardware device pushes us closer to true choice in the OS market. I'm not suggesting that we be blind about it, but when I read the comments for this article, the first dozen are arguments about licensing, which is kinda sad. Not one well-moderated comment in support of the product. Are we all on the same team here, or what? I think we need to get better at sticking together.
Eagles may fly, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Are you as upset that the MythTV project doesn't give credit for what tech/work of others it is built on? I found links in the docs, but I do not see any notice or credit given to the tech that MythTV uses.
Where does it stop? Does a project have to name every other project they get code from on their main page?
Yeah, but having a site called "slashdot.us" is just asking for huge bandwidth fees ;)
If anyone is dumb enough to connect one of these suckers, without a good firewall, to the net, then it's a SPAM Relay waiting to happen.. I'm no the most anal about letting people know my root password, but it's certainly better than: HomeMediaCentre And *not* published in publically (or even privately) viewed documents!
I know this story is so old already that no one will even read this but if you want an alternative to mythTV, MyHTPC works great as well. It's a PVR that is easy to customize and has a ton of features. You get JIT, can schedule recordings, add on any gaming system imaginable ie MAME N64 2600 emulators etc, play any music or media format you can think of, check the weather, browse the web, look at pictures, burn music, etc etc. That's one long run-on sentence but you get the point.
If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
Well, I already own a PC and a Tivo...so instead of forking out nearly $1,400 for their low end box, I think I'll just prepay NINE YEARS of Tivo service...ya know, if the HD holds out that long :)
I like how they call the hard drive "cutting edge magnetic storage technology".
How can so many damn people here on slashdot support and push the GPL and Open Source when so many of you don't even know what it really is.
Sure you know the meaning, but when it comes to what you can / can't do, who and how you can / can't use it, you people dont have a clue.
TruePunk | Games
I know I like to bring this up from time to time, but its just a reminder: dual licencing is OK, OSS developers can make money too! Just give me something in exchange for my money, preferably something I can understand as a proffesional extra! Distro specific packages? A proffesionally reworked GUI? You know, some gravey!
Or at least a donations button.
Quack, quack.
I don't know if anyone has looked at the MythTV website recently, but apparently the guy who wrote the code has been laid off. So, not only is he a good programmer, anyone able to hire him will probably be able to get him to set up their MythTV box for free!!!
> Its amusing how many of your cry about how Linux is still lacking desktop penetration, yet you are quick to run anybody down using it to make a product for PROFIT
The question wasn't about Linux, it was about MythTV. Linux is a kernel. MythTV is a user program. And someone else already made a proper comment about it being important to do proper research on GPL compliance instead of asking a half-assed questioned. The Slashdot editors do not well represent the Linux community any more than any other single person. Editors, also, aren't journalists and really shouldn't be making journalistic questions they aren't prepared to answer.
PS: MythTV can be run on FreeBSD (at minimal) if not a large variety of other OSs (though, admittedly, MythTV still assumes you're using Linux so using a Linux API emulation layer might be necessary (for those who do know more aobut this, please comment)). So, the whole Linux/Windows thing isn't relevant.
Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
silly little rabbit. the FAQs clearly state that /. is a US-centric site.
YOU SUCK BALLS!
computers != A/V gear. Most A/V gear is not rack mountable. But it's nice that you showed your pedantically superior snobbery. It won't get you out of your mother's basement, though. And it obviously didn't get you a date on a Friday night.
Exactly what work is it MythTV use but don't credit? On their "info" page on their site they have a list of other projects which are used by the MythTV project (MySQL, Lame, etc.). That's pretty much what I'd expect.
Second, it was you who was complaining about having to scroll down to the bottom of the other guys site to find the "this site uses..." notice. I never said anything about that.
What I'd expect is a page (most suitable would be on the "about this project" page most likely) which includes a list of other projects you have used in yours. You don't have to mention which editor you use to type it with or under what OS. But I'd expect that if you distribute your program with a bunch of other programs that you mention this. If you fork another program that should be mentioned too.
Besides, just how many programs do you think you'd incorporate code from? In most cases you'd probably just call those programs from your program. In that case it makes more sense to just mention them with the "dependencies".
And from what I've read about the situation the mention of MythTV isn't exactly prominent in the documentation.