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New South Wales Traffic Authority Switches to Macs
MacGyver writes ""In what may well be Apple Computer's largest coup in the Australian enterprise space, the New South Wales Roads and Traffic Authority (RTA) will deploy 1200 G4 iMacs across 140 registry offices." This isn't just a Mac story: the RTA statement noted, "The Apple rollout is a continuation of RTA usage of open standards-based software and systems. The further adoption of open source is being undertaken to provide more choice of vendors and to guarantee RTA systems are providing value for money."
People deserve better. Companies too. ;)
thats like saying your moving from california to idaho for a better selection of produce.
--Idiots, Every single one of YOU, A flaming mass of conglomerated morons, hey wait a second, isnt that how RAID works?
It's been a long time since I've heard a story like this that didn't involve a university or some other education-based organization.
I think Apple can make an excellent case given the rising amount of spyware, viruses, and worms on the PC as well as selling their BSD-based OS.
Good deal and hooray for competition! It's about time (again).
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
This is quite a great achievement for Apple. They currently are doing very well with their advertising campaign and showing off the capabilities of their products. I have been a hard-line OSS user for probably about 5 years and have been very impressed with the new eMac, Powerbook and G5, the new MacOS X too is very refined and well done and I love how the command line utilities are still available(compared to Win). I think all governments should be trying to distribute their computing schemes to several different OS for security purposes alone and should at least not be locked into deals with Microsoft. Linux on the desktop I just don't feel has the simple usability of MacOS X yet so I am very glad too see Apple getting such a large deployment. I am sure their will be more to come as I doubt they will hear many complaints about there G4 iMacs.
A moratorium around election time to end some of these shenanigans would be appropriate.
Its somewhat important as (i assume. i'm not bothering to read the article becasue a) its slashdot and b) i'm drunk ) they're using it in an enterprise application, which, prior to OS X was difficult and isn't particularly common (in my experience) outside of colleges.
Don't worry - its just stigmata. Pass me a napkin and don't you dare tell my mother.
they do control the hardware, but all the parts in there are standard peices of hardware. It isn't so much the hardware that they are worried about, it is the software. OS X is pretty damn nice to open-standards and the hardware is nice. They still can go with a linux/bsd solution, such at a time when the latest Mac OS won't run on the machines properly they can load up Linux etc.
Jisho - A Japanese English German Russian French Dictionary for the rest of us.
They could have used the money to fix 1200 potholes in Sydney roads, you can swim in some of them when it rains!
... then they should have gone for a custom FreeBSD solution. All the stability of OS X without the heinous cost of proprietary hardware and software. The outlay on custom development for their needs would have been offset with cheaper hardware, no licencing costs, and then they would have completely owned their own software rather than being locked into the vendor relationship.
not to mention to cost of licences! i better go for my green P soon. i can see them going form cositng me a total of $95 to $150 with the implemtaion of this new mac policy
Forgotten about SCO already?
My words are backed with NUCLEAR WEAPONS!
Granted, but it's either stick with OS-X and be restricted to a much smaller subset of hardware they can choose from, or switch to Linux/*BSD and realize that Mac hardware *is* standard, and not exactly cheap.
Mac's prices are based on the fact that you have a stable system because, again, they control the hardware. If their goal was truely as stated, buying 'off-the-shelf' parts and installing Linux/*BSD would be just as effective and far cheaper...
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living."
- Seneca
Open *standards*. They didn't say open hardware, nor did they say open source.
that would be true if microsoft windows was based on freebsd, but i believe you're mistaken.
.net and includes a very crappy jvm implementation. apple uses's sun's official jvm with performance improvements and native widget toolkits in os x, and this is installed by default
lets take a looksie
windows has the registry. apple has xml files
outlook and outlook express use a proprietary database format. apple uses mbox
windows uses a proprietary network file sharing protocol. apple uses nfs
windows has a closed kernel. mac uses a freebsd kernel (of which you can download on apple's website).
microsoft uses it's own proprietary messaging protocol. apple uses oscar (which may not be open, but it's a hell of a lot more used and standard)
microsoft's browser defaults searches to msn. apple's browser defaults to google.
microsoft's browser is based on a non-standards compliant closed source engine. apple's is based off the open source khtml library.
microsoft's compiler and IDE is closed and costs thousands. apple's is free (xcode) and based off an open source compiler (gcc).
microsoft's backing
microsoft uses a closed source web server. apple ships os x with an open source webserver, apache.
microsoft implemented a proprietary api for game development, directx. apple bases their display system (quartz extreme) off opengl, and supports openal now as well.
x86 machines use proprietary bioses for each motherboard. apple uses openfirmware, developed by sun and ibm i believe.
i think i've made my point, but believe me, there's more. that sounds a lot more like open-standards based than microsoft.
- tristan
So they are using full blown Macs for a cash register, attaching a laser printer for receipts and certificates and running some specific software. Seems to me a cheaper solution might be found using a dumber device and a web app or two.
Hardware company has complete control over their hardware. Story and reactions at 11.
I think they meant that MAcs play nicer with Linux and other *nixes and that Macs are a lot friendlier in the OS department then windows... the do have an open source kernel and do ship with open source tools.
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
Apple, a company which makes Microsoft look like a bastion of openness?
Ummm... Since when did Micro$oft start basing Windoze off of an open source OS (As Apple has by basing OSX on Darwin (which itself is a FreeBSD derivative))? Does Microsoft give away development tools like OS X's Xcode?
Wouldn't a Linux or *BSD solution, ultimately, be what they should have gone with?
You could definately say that OS X is a *BSD solution.
Wouldn't a Linux or *BSD solution, ultimately, be what they should have gone with?
Err.. What is Mac OSX based on again? IMHO this is a fantastic decision. It helps them transisition easily as everything is still the same sort of GUI as Windows but much better. And if someone wants to goto command line and customize stuff and have a network class OS which is easily admistered from a central place without the bother of security holes, you have BSD on which MacOS X is based.
We are now seeing the fruits of Apple's decision to move to a BSD platform. As already mentioned sometime back, even the developers and power users and moving to the Apple platform. Apple has the best of both worlds, Excellent GUI, great power user functionality.
This isn't just a Mac story: The further adoption of open source is being undertaken
:P
The irony here is, there wouldn't be a mac/apple story if it weren't for Apple having gone to OS X and a more open software philosophy. It looks like, were it not for open source, much of the revitalization that Apple has undergone in the wake of OS X would not have occured, and "Apple is dying!" would be all over slashdot - as it as prior to OS X. Haven't seen those trolls for a while, so maybe it's telling.
Of course, now there'll be 15 replies with, "Apple is dying!" or "BSD is dying!" or such, just to spite me.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
My guess why they went for Apple is probably because Darwin is bassed on BSD and the source is available. It may not be open in the sence that Linux is but it is more open then Microsoft ever will be.
Also, with Apple meing a majoe vendor they have a certain sence of security when it coemes to future support. Apple have a better chance of sticking around than some shop making custom Linux boxes
That's all old Apple stuff. The new Macs use standard memory, IDE drives, USB keyboards and mice. They've bellied up to the Wintel hardware base, just like Sun has.
You're right about most of your other points, but don't hold the ancient history of deliberately closed hardware at Apple against them in this day and age.
resigned
> but their systems are definately NOT "open stardards-based"
Hmm,
PCI
Open Firmware
S-IDE
USB
IEEE1394 (Firewire)
Come again?
Yes, because apple does give full documentation, for free, to it's users while also giving free development tools. Apple also doesn't include large ammounts of gpled software in it's client and server base install while also NOT supporting X11 compatability for linux apps. Furthermore, Apple sure as hell doesn't have an open source kernel to which you are free to contributed or fork.
Ya, them damn Mac people. Buy good hardware, get a beautiful GUI ontop of an open kernel using many open tools.
MacOS X isn't based on FreeBSD.
They ported in a FreeBSD userland to provide the core userland. They planted it on top of a Mach kernel based on NextOS, a proprietary closed-source OS. They piled on top a GUI layer that is closed source.
Saying MacOS is 'based on FreeBSD' is like claiming a Windows 2000 machine is 'based on GTK' because you installed the Win32 port of the gimp on it.
resigned
I was agreeing with you all the way... until you started typing.
Apple's niche is built on being able to know what their hardware is, and better write software for it so that the computer, as a whole, is more fluid. How f-ing dare they! Linux can be built on a system where they have complete control of the hardware. Hell the lycoris guy just started a company to do just that. What is wrong with it? You mean it would be bad for Sun to sell an OS on a non-intel chip and write software that is tuned in such a way to take advantage of it? This was a great strategy for them, and it is for Apple too. So what is the problem.
They won't choose freebsd/linux for the same reason i prefer to use my mac. It is easier, in all aspects that i have encountered, to accomplish things on my mac (and thus save time, i/e money) than on my bsd server. It is just more effecient, for me atleast. And the cost of buying my mac, minus all the time and frustration i have gotten to avoid, has made the purchase a bargain.
Actually, this is pretty important. Governmental departments are notoriously slow to change. This shows that governments are slowing giving MS/Windows alternatives a chance, which is extremely positive. Sure, they may not have gone with Linux (the fact that Mac OS X runs MS Office natively probably makes it easy for them to transition to the new platform), but this shows that alternative OS's are slowly gaining traction. Furthermore, Australia is very Microsoft-centric. I was surprised by the prevalence of MS technology there. And the fact that an Aussie governmental department would go with Apple highlights that alternative OS's may have a chance after all.
-B
I don't see the value in using 1200 Macintoshes for simple data entry applications which could be accomplished by dumb terminals. Nothing against Apple or the Macintosh, but this is like replacing the Fords and Chevys at the public works with 1200 brand new Mercedes-Benzes.
That day won't ever come. The wintrolls on C.O.L.A. will shout at the linuxtrolls on C.O.L.A. back and forth about problems with Red Hat 5.1 and Windows 98 for an eternity.
It keeps them busy and out of trouble. So who's to complain?
resigned
Note that I specifically said that I meant no offense. I, in fact, in some way admire that system, as it does tend to result in a well-functioning system as a whole.
I still stand by the point that Apple hardly qualifies as an 'open standard-based software and system' while they keep their hardware bundles to themselves.
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living."
- Seneca
> so how does going to macs go with the open souce thing - mos OSS software works with windows at least as well as OSX.
./configure and make. Apple even bundles their X11 with the operating system. Therefore: you can have all that unix/linux sw running on your mac just about as easily as you could do that on linux. On windows, things get much more complicated.
Maybe there's quite a bit of OSS software for Windows, but have you ever tried to compile some yourself? Unless shipped with specific win patches, it won't be easy -- or even possible. Compiling for OSX is, on the other hand, mostly just
still running a x86? dinosaurs do exist!
Come again?
Not Open in the least. Just read it for yourself.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Cool!
That means I get to listen to iTunes next time I go to fail my license exam.
"Yeah, but who's gonna FLY it, kid?"
Stability is a tricky thing - just like vendor relationships. Apple knows their hardware as well as their software. Whenever I hear the word, "Custom", as it relates to a large project like this, I cringe.
Does 'Custom' mean that you never have to:
- Patch it?
- Update various included software?
- Include new hardware support?
Of course not! Even if you're not paying for the software, you're going to have pay for the support for the software - however you figure it. Just ask IBM - that's their new business model. Think their customers are getting off any cheaper than Apple's? Don't bet on it.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
NuBus was created by TI.
And it was used in more than just Macs.
Honestly, when Apple selected NuBus, they had no real choice.
There were two other major busses available at the time.
One was VME Bus (used by Sun, amongst others). This was in wide use, but card support was strange, selecting drivers was often difficult. Also, you had to remove jumpers when you put in a card and put them back if you ever took it out. As an aside, VME Bus was "unfair", giving priority to some cards over others. This was not a big deal, although it was made out to be at the time.
The other was IBM's AT-bus (later ISA). This was incredibly slow and it was tied closely to the architecture of the Intel 80x86. Trying to make it work on a Motorola processor would have been difficult, and even if done perfectly would have produce very slow throughput since AT-Bus was only 16-bits wide. And, as we all know, installing more than one AT-Bus card at one time was incredibly dicey, requiring lots of jumper settings.
In short, Apple chose the only alternative they could have to accomplish their goals.
As to ADB, well, they could have used the PC keyboard connector (PS/2 wasn't available or in wide use at the time). It wasn't well suited to international keyboards (as you couldn't detect what keyboard was attached very well) and Apple wanted international support. It was key to gaining the desktop publishing market, which they did very well.
ADB also allowed the mouse to be plugged into the keyboard (reduced connectors) and allowed the machine to be turned on from the keyboard, which was nice.
All in all, I think your complaints are misguided. The technologies you speak of actually show less protectionism than the issues of the motherboard ROMs at the time.
As to Microsoft not working with competitors' hardware, Microsoft doesn't sell hardware. Well, usually they don't, and when they do it, they do it poorly (witness their current failed attempt to enter the 802.11 market). Anyway, there were 3rd party solutions to make 3rd party CD drives work. I don't get what the big deal is.
The plural of "Mac" is "Macs", not "Mac's". "Mac's" means "Mac is", as in "My Mac's such a sweet machine", or "Your Mac's been upgraded AGAIN?"
Honey, I shrunk the Cygwin
in that respect, i would concede the point, atleast in part. Yes, apple is mostly closed in their hardware, not entirely(yellowdog linux is the only vendow allowed to sell apple hardware without the macos installed, and i mean only as in only ones in the world) but pretty much. Their hardware itself is open though, i mean sata disks, ibm ppc(open standard) processor, standard ram, pci-x/pci cards... their monitor plugins are weird, but still standard(just not a widespread one, i believe). I mean even their firmware is open(unless i am mistaken, correct me if i am).
The individual parts, to my understanding, are very open(maybe not the most popular, but still an open standard) the way they are packaged together is closed to others. That has its good and bad sides.
In the workplace, is it really gonna be a problem? ram upgrades arn't an issue, and their would be minimal hardware changes, but overall the cubicle upgrades can still be performed.
It isn't completely open, but it does have open aspects, and that shouldn't be ignored.
Nice, that's only a handful of patches behind!
Thanks for being on the Internet, I sure appreciate the extra spam.
No, Mac OS X's kernel isn't Mach, it's XNU. Mac OS X's core operating system is called Darwin, which has a lot (but not all) of it open source.
"NextOS" doesn't exist, but Mac OS X is somewhat derived from OPENSTEP, from NeXT.
OS X isn't based on FreeBSD. The kernel is a modified Mach 3.x and 4.4BSD-Lite2. FreeBSD provided most of the userland, while Net/OpenBSD provided networking and filesystem components.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Considering Macs last longer then cockroaches... they probably won't have to switch linux any time soon ;)
"Things are more moderner than before- bigger, and yet smaller- it's computers-- San Dimas High School football RULES!"
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living."
- Seneca
If their data is cross-platform, then it doesn't matter if they are using Macs, Linux or glorified iPods..they are not "locked in" to a particular vendor.
So why choose Macs? Maybe for them it was a lower TOC. Maybe for them it is easier to get a locked down system for iMacs. Maybe they just want their offices to look nicer? Who knows..maybe the question was answered in the article...
I come from a LAN down under
Where the packets flow and routers chunder
Yes, idiots who don't know what they're talking about always need to be heard.
I was one of the top 3 Mac repair guys in Pittsburgh from 1996-2001. With's Apple's repair dispatches this means that I personally have been everywhere between Sarver PA and Cadiz County OH to do Apple repairs. I replaced more analog/power boards in Summer 2000 iMacs than you've probably even seen, I've replaced more front panel boards in PowerMac G4s than you can imagine. Hundreds of 3.6v lithium and 4.5v alkaline batteries. Countless OS upgrades. I assisted one of my clients and Apple's engineers with determining that there was a problem with their Desktop Beige G3, Mac OS 8.0 and 768 MB of memory. I remember the driver problem with the hard drives on x400s and System 7.6 that caused the entire contents of hard drives to be lost. I still have copies of Mac OS 8 cds that were sent to me by Apple. I still have a couple of the Mac OS 8 temporary tattos and Tee shirts that were sent to me by Apple. I scored enough points in Apple's "Learn n Earn" program that I won an Apple Laptop Backpack. I know every Apple Machine from the Mac Plus through the Sawtooth G4s inside and out.
My first Mac was a Mac Plus, 8mhz, 1MB of RAM System 6.0.x and a 20MB hard drive. I started coding for the Mac with Codewarrior 1 and Symantec C++ version 7.
I could go on for a while, but suffice it to say that I know Macs.
How about you?
With all I know, I have chosen to not purchase any new Apple hardware.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Also, this is a motor registry. My guess is they want basic office automation and the ability to run their own software (you know, stonking huge database of cars, drivers, billing and such). AFAIK, it's not the sort of thing you buy at WalMart. With MacOS X, my guess is that they'll write so they can port to BSD/Linux/Solaris/whatever if needed. The Mac provides a nice, predictable hardware platform.
Xix.
"Everything is adjustable, provided you have the right tools"
Mac OSX is based on a Mach kernel, and built on NextStep, a closed-source OS from a company that Apple purchased. It includes a ported in 'Userland' from FreeBSD.
Apple decided to move on a 'BSD Marketing Bullet Point', not a 'BSD platform.'
resigned
Another state police force in Australia already use Macs as their base machine. That is in Queensland (QLD).
Or at least they were in the 1990s. I'm a bit out of date on my Mac info.
Um HELLO!!!! (I copied that bit off your post)...proprietary computers don't cause lock in....proprietary data formats do. If the data is OS/hardware agnostic, it hardly matters what hardware they use on the desktop.
If using Macs helps with that transition (remember they probably need MS Office) then lucky Apple - they make a sale.
I come from a LAN down under
Where the packets flow and routers chunder
Whilst I like the idea of using Macs, somehow I think that considering the intended use of them, this is an ideal situation in which to deploy x-terms. The article says that they already use Sun gear, so why not roll-out a load of Sunrays? - They'd use less power and last longer because they have no moving parts.
That being said, the Macs are a better choice when compared to PC's... they might be a bit more expensive up front, but the build quality is excellent and people find them easier to use, so the cost of maintaining and supporting them is going to be lower.
One of the interesting things in the article is that they can use the swivel mount to show people their license photos easily. Pretty nifty.
Of course, I have no idea about why they made the decision because I don't work there - I also live across the border in SA.
Don't say cheaper. You have to hire people to put the systems together, image the drives, maintain the computers (oh, shit. no warrantee), the nerd you'd need to configure linux or BSD in an enterprise solution.... That sounds like both less effective and, in the long run, more expensive.
Don't worry - its just stigmata. Pass me a napkin and don't you dare tell my mother.
Then obviously whoever installs it does not know what they are dong.
I've set up dozens of print shops with every incarnation of OSX since 10.1 and NONE of their software "breaks".
Troll.
I've been upgraded to "bad"!
mac's can also be the possessive form, you left that out. so: "my mac's kernel is a mach" would be proper usage ;)
and "your mac's been upgraded again?" would be "your mac has been upgraded again?" not "your mac is been upgraded again?".
so if you're the grammar nazi, i must be the grammar military police
NextStep, OpenStep. Whatever you want to call it, from whatever era of NeXT's history. I wasn't accurate. I admit it.
I'm still looking for a copy of OpenStep. I won't pay the obscene eBay prices for it, however. But I'd like to run it, preferably one of the releases from the middle years when it ran on so many different platforms. Didn't it run on Sparc, Intel, and PA-RISC in certain releases?
resigned
Obviously Apple are not charging their usual outside-USA rip-off prices to those in Australia. Oh wait, government sales.....no I take that back.
Karma? Sorry, i don't believe in superstition. http://talk.thinkingmatters.org.nz
In which case they could simply purchase Linux-based Desktops from, say, HP.
Apple is expensive. It does have its many niches, but enterprise solution is *not* one of them for a reason.
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living."
- Seneca
it is based on Darwin which uses the Mach kernel and you can get the source and build it if you like. It is all free and open source. Heck it is also cross platform.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
- "Your Mac's been upgraded AGAIN" is an informal contraction of "Mac has."
- "Mac's" can also be the possessive form of "Mac."
Sorry to be pedantic, but you started it.For example, "My Mac's rather dirty; it likes to be spanked."
You tell me how "whilst" differs from "while," and I'll stop calling you a pretentious jackass.
you missed that at the OS source code is opesource and cross platform
the browser is open source
the compiler is gcc
the native API is Cocoa which is a derivative of openstep just liek GNUstep and the two are quite compatible
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
I have the feeling the person quoted used "Open Source" improperly.
My guess is, they will be using a custom app to run the system (made with the Apple Development tools, which could be confused with "Open Source".)
The decision to use iMacs makes sense to me. The last thing the Australian DMV database needs is to be plagued by a Windows virus, to be sabotaged by a hacker, or to just plain crash. They'll be using imaging technology (photos, and I assume fingerprints.) The swivel monitors make sense, easy to turn and show the customers. And last but not least, they probably got a very sweet deal from Apple. Apple knows the value of good press (and exposure, they give thousands of machines to Hollywood every year-- ever noticed how many computers on TV shows or in movies are Macs?)
We know it will work cause we make sure vedors who make anything made for our systems will make sure it works
Linux on a x86 platform
Well we will make drivers eventually.... anyday now.... we swear..... what its been 3 months? well we have a new product that IS compatable, you need to upgrade though....
Given the choice of open software on a platfore your almost assured will work, or a platform you need to juryrig to work... I would take Apple
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
didn't the dark lord in redmond, where the dark shadow lies, tremble and shake in fury and rage?
... y Dios vio que Linux era bueno... Genesis 99.666
Also, since when does off the shelf hardware not have a warranty?
Seriously, something like this is planned, they can buy in bulk and it is most definitely less expensive both in the short term and long term. There is no comparison on price so find another point to argueWhen used with the smartcard readers they feature, you can take your session with you. So you are working, need to go somewhere else, just pull the card and go. When you insert it into another system, your session will be there, just as you left it.
I'm a real fan, provided you aren't using intense applications. If your stuff does a lot of graphics, you'll quickly find that the CPU and memory it requires makes the servers more expensive than just getting dedicated computers. However for centralized data entry (as they'll be doing) Sunrays rock.
In most corporate or enterprise systems the machines are replaced every two years not because they are going bad but because they are going off warranty and new cheaper better hardware is available.
I'm faily certain this guy is a troll, but I'l bite.
/hardware/ lockin - they're concerned about software.
So, what is it then exactly about the current breed of MacOS that locks a person in? People don't tend to be terribly concerned about
Name one thing about apple software that currently locks a person into MacOS. I'm genuinely interested. Look here if you have any doubt that apple is, indeed, embracing a more open approach.
In all honesty, I'd wager that you're likely to have better "hardware portability" with PPC stuff and macs in general in the future than with x86, due to the fact that there are many fewer variants of macs compared to PCs, and there seem to be a lot more shitty components that lack multiplatform support on PC (winmodems, nforce chipsets, and what have you).
So basically: it's wintel monoculture vs. everything else, discount or no. "choice of vendors" makes perfect sense, as when there's a monopoly with over 90% market share (hint: it's microsoft), everything else -is- a choice, if it works.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
So yep, whoever installs it doesn't know what they're doing
Off the shelf does have individual warranties, but not for the unit as a whole. YOu want to add the beurocracy of dealing with even more companies to a government department? Increased time spent getting shit fixed is money - someone has to deal with it.And those support agreements are available - i never denied they were - but thats an added cost over the hardware (and assuming the software is free). Macs also tend to preserve their value for signifigantly longer than x86 boxen. iMacs have lower profile/cost of most available boxes, have an ergonomic LCD, etc. You save space, blah blah blah. If you're going to come up with conclusions, at least give us the benefit of making up some numbers.
Don't worry - its just stigmata. Pass me a napkin and don't you dare tell my mother.
Whilst is a nice word. I suppose 'kith and kin' would be beyond the pale for you as well?
Relax. Languages are more fun if you can play with them; often half the meaning communicated falls between the strict literal meaning of the words in a sentence.
Also, I can buy hdds in units of 50-500, even 1000 no problem. I am covered under an enterprise warranty. If a drive goes bad I ship it off to Maxtor or whoever I choose to go with after learning the environment they will live. Its not different from any other setting where you buy the computer whole. You're argument over space is irrelevent as well since there are both monitors and cases designed to be like Macs. If you assume the software is free and the computers themselves cost less then where do you figure Macs cost less in any run. Seriously, the argument has been made they use the same types of components so how would a new G4 or G5 hold its value compared to a normal PC? It won't, Apple gave that up when they stopped using scsi in all their machines.
As for numbers on the support agreements, they would be useless since such a thing would rely on information I don't have, such as, do they want the support team to manage the hardware as well? Do they want the support team to ensure upgrades are done when a new product is available? Depending on their needs the price will change a lot. But its still a hell of a lot less than the cost of a support call to Apple.
Great. Why not buy it? You didn't give reasoning.
:) Pretty nice history.
Btw, you did go on "for a while"
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I'm sitting beside a NeXT running NS 3.3. I've got dev 3.3 on it which will build a binary that will run on m68k (black hardware), x86, Sparc, and HPPA. They're checkboxes in project builder, or -arch options to cc.
:)
So, yeah.
blackhole has reasonable prices. It's still about $300 for OPENSTEP. I've been trying to modernize my 3.3, but I may give up in a couple of days.
-- The world is watching America, and America is watching TV.
If you'd RTFA, you'd know that the "open standards" referred to are Java and Unix, which OSX interoperates with much better than Windows, which (apparently) was used previously. The iMacs run a Java virtual terminal and Mozilla browsers. Is that open enough?
Completely irrelevent. These boffins are buying several hundred computers for a large organization. If they went with PCs, the vast majority of them would probably be identical. If they went completely linux from the start, they would pick something that already played nice with linux. Who cares that most computers have a component or two that doesn't work on linux? They would either A: get hardware that already works. Or B: get someone to write them a driver.
How much custom configurating did Apple have to do for these guys? A fair amount I would think. For 1200 computers, picking all parts that work from the beginning would be the best bet.
Please explain to me how your PPC is more hardware portabable. Intel-compatable hardware can run most any version of a wide variety of operating systems. If you really want to, you can run Windows 2.0 on the latest Athlons. Macs are limited to Apple OS and a very small list of linux distributions.
Wintel Monoculture? Whats that? All I see is a list of choice you could put yourself to sleep to, and a field not limited to mostly one company.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
What I find incredibly amusing, is the fact that a similar size loss has occurred to Apple in a nearby area. Optus Communications, Australias second largest telco, has been a MAC Shop since it started, but is slowly changing away. And slowly is the operative word, as it has been found that the "amount of hardware" and inherent cost has increased dramatically in the Wintel world...
Probably because it has outsourced it's IT to Compaq, and then HP (With IBM GSA Doing application design in the wings) disentangling the incumbent MAC components has been a nightmare for them, predominantly because of hardware vendors more focused on selling new widgets than working out what flavour of widgets the customer required.
But then, this is the same company that has a Billing System that runs just fine on VAXes, that they haven't been able to "beat" with applications runing on Sun E10000's and HP Superdomes...
Apple includes proprietary Mac OS X only programs for everything: music, photo, movies, DVD player, email, contacts, and office programs.
.net, Apple pushes Apple.com and .mac accounts. .NET is a programming api. that buzzword is used for many other things, but that is what i was talking about. not .mac. if you don't like .mac, don't use .mac. however for .NET, the programming api, it's pure microsoft platform lock-in using system.windows.forms, which is heavily windows-only. unlike java.
then use xmms, gimp, mplayer, avidemux, evolution, and openoffice. there's not much stopping you with fink/darwinports and x11. there are plenty of native mac equivalents to those. the difference though is these programs are all included in the cost of the OS ($129). this is not so bad a deal considering all you get.
Apple makes sure that everything that goes into their computers has their logo and their stamp of a aproval on it. They insure that you cannot purchase components directly from the supplier so that they make as much money as possible, another great way to support open standards.
this is far more a problem with the industry than it is apple. if there were several cpu manufacturers, several mobo manufacturers, etc, then economies of scale would allow you to build a ppc os x compatible machine. don't complain to apple for this, complain to the hardware companies for not offering more solutions.
Their OS while based on Unix can only be installed on Mac hardware while its base suggests that it could be run on X86 machines and other formfactors becides their own.
windows can only be installed on x86. why can't i install it on ppc? that sure is vendor lock in! don't give me that crap. apple doesn't make money off it's OS. it makes money off it's hardware. if you want os x for intel, keep dreaming. if it wasn't made for ppc only, apple would probably go out of business.
And just as MS pushes MSN and
um, those have nothing to do with each other.
If anything, it is Apple that is the worst infraction to open standards computing, since they make sure that their standards are open only to other mac users. In essence, Appe takes from the open source community, mutates its function and intent, and then spits it back out with a high price and fruity colors. Going Apple is okay if thats your thing, but heralding their openness is like saying you purchased Windows for the stability
so would you rather apple implement a proprietary closed standard for EVERY SINGLE THING they do? i know a company who does this.. they are called microsoft. go look up your history books sometime. the fact that apple leverages open source is an ADVANTAGE. it means they spend less time concentrating on OS security bugs, and more time producing great software using the power of all this open source. if you don't like the fact that it costs more, then don't buy it. if you don't like the fact that it looks better than windows (because aqua does) then quit bitching and apply a theme (go to uninsanity's website). yes, i AM hearlding their openness. because they are 100 times more open than the most proprietary, monopolistic company, on the planet.
- tristan
I hear you. I went to RMIT for my Master's in IT, and I think it's a little bit better than Macquarie in terms of alternative OS support, but not much. When I was there, only about 5 student in the whole department were running OS X (me included), and I am sure no more than 5 were running Linux. Getting any sort of support was basically nil. However, I was very happy to see the advanced graphics lab running Linux, and our main servers were all Solaris based (except for some Windows Terminal Server monstrosities).
:-P
The good thing was that none of the courses were too Microsoft centric. In fact I was able to complete all of my assignments and subjects using OS X! Thank goodness for its UNIX underpinnings.
However, being a Java webapp developer with no MS training, looking for a job in Oz was always fun ("Do you know ASP? Oh, too bad, it's an ASP position." "Did you even bother to read my CV?")
-B
I touched my first Macintosh in December of 1987 because my best friend said it would be better if my resume were presented as a Macintosh document. From a cold start to finished product (including figuring out how to print: 20 minutes). That resume got me a job as a contractor at Apple. I stayed there for the most part of the next fourteen years.
.Mac), AirPort, LC II Apple II emulator, HyperCard Audio Help, every Mac OS from 6 through X, every machine up to the original iMac (I was laid off in 1997), and every machine from the 1999 crop to the domed iMac in 2001. I now make my living as a Mac and Windows consultant on the big island of Hawaii. I've owned (or own) a PowerBook Duo 250, PowerBook 5300, iBook (dual USB) and a Sawtooth G4. I, too, know the machines, the software and a lot of the people who made them. Been there, done that and still own a shitload of t-shirts.
The projects I worked on: Communications Toolbox, AppleShare 2.0, AppleShare PC, AppleShare IP, PC Exchange, Copland, MacTerminal, quality lead for the Scriptable Finder, iTools (later
I could go on for a while, but suffice it to say that I know Macs.
With all I know, I will always purchase new Apple hardware. I'm recommending Apple hardware to everyone for whom it is appropriate.
I can rebuild a Mac from parts I buy at WalMart (monitors, CD and DVD drives, external Zip drives, speakers, mice, keyboards, hard drives, routers (wired and wireless), USB and FireWire cards in both PCI and PCMCIA flavors), RadioShack (memory, USB keyboards, mice and hubs) or Office Depot (miscellaneous). As long as the equipment is up to spec, I don't worry about compatibility.
Apple isn't perfect. It has its quirks. But I fix more Macs more quickly with less hassle than just about any Windows shitbox you could put in front of me. And they stay fixed.
End of story.
This is like saying, "I would be tempted to believe you if Linux wasn't so GNU-centric. Mac=Apple=Mac. I don't see your point.
Apple includes proprietary Mac OS X only programs for everything: music, photo, movies, DVD player, email, contacts, and office programs.
iTunes isn't Mac OS X only. And Apple doesn't make an Office program. And they can't legally open their DVD player either. Get your facts straight.
Apple makes sure that everything that goes into their computers has their logo and their stamp of a aproval on it. They insure that you cannot purchase components directly from the supplier so that they make as much money as possible, another great way to support open standards.
Yes, that's the problem with Windows and Linux. Nothing is really guaranteed to work. It's always plug and pray. Actually, only the outside of a Mac has the logo on it. And my mouse, keyboard, hard drive, monitor, speakers, RAM, and several other parts can all bought from third-party vendors. So much for your weird closed standards notion of Apple. Thinking back to the Mac Plus days were we?
Their OS while based on Unix can only be installed on Mac hardware while its base suggests that it could be run on X86 machines and other formfactors becides their own.
Er, wrong again. DarwinBSD (which is the UNIX underpinnings of Mac OS X) can be installed on x86 architecture.
And just as MS pushes MSN and .net, Apple pushes Apple.com and .mac accounts.
Apple doesn't have apple.com accounts. And, no, they're not pushy about .mac accounts. I think you're getting confused with Microsoft Passport and Linux's Wallet program, which is the most annoying pushy feature I've seen yet in an OS. Mac OS X has NEVER popped up a dialog about .Mac
If anything, it is Apple that is the worst infraction to open standards computing, since they make sure that their standards are open only to other mac users. In essence, Appe takes from the open source community, mutates its function and intent, and then spits it back out with a high price and fruity colors. Going Apple is okay if thats your thing, but heralding their openness is like saying you purchased Windows for the stability.
Now this is where you really show your true colors, TROLL. If Apple hadn't embraced BSD, they would be nowhere as big as they are now. Apple embraced BSD when they didn't have to, and they lost 2 good years trying to get going on top of that crappy operating system (2000 and 2001). Apple is one of the few real success stories of open source, but you're all too ready to point the finger. It looks like you're too confused about this whole "sharing" thing to tell your friends from your enemies. Anyone who decides to give their work away for free and then DEMAND that people use it exactly as they wish is a FOOL. Giving things away is a risk you take for a greater good. You shouldn't be advocating open standards when you don't know why or what they're for, you hypocrite
... let me say that the story doesn't do the project great justice.
The main reason for choosing iMacs over a Linux/BSD/whatever solution (which we did try side by side with plenty of others) was OH&S.
Yes, Occupational Health and Safety. They took one look at the screen design, the way each individual user could move the screen where they wanted it and they were pretty much sold. We approached another supplier for a similar solution, only to get a quote for a movable screen of equivalent specs that put it about AUD $1000 over the price of the iMacs.
We were keen to Switch to Macs from our Javastations because they make a great product, they are supported by a "big" name (the rest of our our system is Solaris), and we can perform remote admin and stuff easily.
Other big-name suppliers were pushing to get in on this but someone with the authority to make such decisions said "no Windows in registries" after Blaster/Slammer/et al took out most of the rest of the organisation while our Javastations kept on kicking on.
As with any public-facing organisation, the amount of customers we would have had to say "sorry you've waited half an hour already, please come back tomorrow, assuming we've fixed it by then" to if our registry network was taken out would have made for a bigger news story than this one by far.
On another note, the press release that seems to have made it out mixes two different things we are doing - changing to the iMacs here, which running our custom Java app (plus Mozilla and a few other bits and pieces), and investigating open-source as a general concept. There's plenty of OS there all throughout the registry network, but the corporate desktops are all still Win2k/Office/Exchange/Novell jobbies, the replacement of which is being investigated with closed and open solutions from varying vendors.
you obviously havent playe with OSX in a few years, around 10.2 things were brought up to speed and current with freebsd 4.4.
It used to be a mess and there were alot of netbsd things, no man pages, and a bunch of misc. stuff. but recently 10.2+ things are maturing nicely and the man pages are getting updated and all the user level utilities are updated.
Nothing like inside information to set all the wild theorising in slashdot to rest. Oh yeah. Slashdot. Sorry, continue the wild speculations!
Bitter and proud of it.
Both IM protocols are proprietary.
The difference is that MS has released all the specs of its protocol and people can write their clients, whereas Oscar had to be reverse engineered. So next time, please don't let your Mac favouritism cloud the facts.
As far as search engines go, neither MS nor Apple force you to use their default choices, which of course goes for most of things you have mentioned. Yes, Google is better than MSN, but I suppose being free and all stops when it has to do with Google, right?
/. Where the truth
Actually, Apple uses AFS (Andrew File System) as distributed file system, but I'm sure Apple works well with NFS as well.
I've never seen the OSS people compare a recent Linux distro to Windows 98.
Besides, the same flaws still exist in Windows XP, Office 2003, and other Microsoft software.
I have XP crash/not respond far more often than the Linux distros I've tried over the years.
windows uses a proprietary network file sharing protocol. apple uses nfs
if I recall SMB was developed jointly by Microsoft and IBM and I think it actually it standard. I'm sure just as with HTML MS has made MS specific extensions, but I do believe it was a standar. It was used in OS/2 among other things.
Your CPU is not doing anything else, at least do something.
Nothing, they use OpenLDAP for that now. DUH.
I guess you've never heard that 10.3 (Panther) is the current OS version. And running OS X Server isn't all that difficult.
On OS X Server setting up Samba and have all Windows machines authenticate via OS X takes an hour or two (the install itself taking most of the time). And it takes no expert to do that.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
So because the userland is from BSD it's a BSD fork, despite the fact that the kernel is based on Mach?
With your logic if I take all the userland utilities from Linux (which are basically GNU) don't use the kernel but rather use a Mach based kernel then I have created a Linux fork?
Don't make me laugh.
There are two rules for success:
1. Never tell everything you know.
Actually, Apple uses AFP (Appleshare File Protocol), not AFS. Mac OS X ships with AFP, SMB and NFS. Turning on 'file sharing' turns on AFP, which is proprietary.
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
Ouch, I sit corrected.
Sorry, OS X is built on the Mach microkernel.
not being able to build it does not make it closed.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
have you ever looked inside a mac?
USB, Firewire, VGA, ATA and SATA.
yeah, look at all the strange connectors.
Data locks you into a platform dork. if all my files are in some format that is only available on windows, I can't really pickup and move over to Linux very easily can I.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
You are misinformed.
If the data is cross-platform, then you can scrap your hardware and/or platform. If your data isn't then you are screwed.
I come from a LAN down under
Where the packets flow and routers chunder
Another reason the iMac's moveable screen was such a hit was that it allows the RTA staffmember to show the customer an image of their licence photo before the licence is printed, which happens at the registry. (New South Wales driving licences are pinted on demand on a plastic card the same size and thickness as a credit card, and include a passport style picture. A transparent holographic image is then laminated on top to make them harder to forge.)
But if YOU were given a spec that looked like this: Replace our EOL'ed Javastations, must have
LCD screen on movable arm
fast, reliable Java implementation
strongly prefer UNIX
can't be Windows
Easy integration with head office wintel software a bonus
Would you pick anything but an iMac?
Bullshit. The Apple GUI is heavily based on the OPENSTEP specification, which is publicly available. The implementation may not be open source, but it is based on open standards. Code from other OPENSTEP platforms (NeXTStep, GNUStep, some versions of Solaris, etc.) can usually be run with only a recompile.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
OS X is not just a pretty UI running on top of a FreeBSD kernel, but saying that it is not based on FreeBSD is also wrong.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
With a networked display protocol like X, there's no particularly good reason for putting all of your eggs in a single large and expensive basket on the server end.
You can deploy a similar, X based archtecture using Linux, or indeed Sun/HP/IBM kit. Make the desktop cheap diskless systems which support PXE booting, put in a load balanced array of smaller and cheaper servers on the back end instead of a large server, individually they work out very much in the same price range as a desktop PC. Examples would be Dell PowerEdge 750,1750,2650 machines or Sun V120,V240 machines and then because memory is cheap you max them out. I think the Dell PE 1750 provides a good price/ performance ratio at the moment. The architecture scales in parallel. Need more power you add more machines to the array. "The network is the machine" as they say. Consider them disposable, dispense with hardware maintenance, if a disk fails, buy another, if a machine fails completely outwith the warranty period just buy another.
Course, SunRays don't use X and are not Xterminals, i don't know if they support run apps on multiple different servers and still connect back to a single display, it's a mistake if they don't. This is the design mistake that Windows Terminal server makes(though Citrix doesn't), limiting scalability and increasing the server and administration costs.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
You think Apple machines don't hold their value any more because they use off the shelf hardware?
Go poke about on ebay for a while in the Mac section and compare G3, G4, Cubes, iMacs, Powerbooks and iBooks against x86 boxen of the same age - there's no comparison.
Apple kit depeciates much, much more slowly that x86.
Further to the reply already posted, Apple tries its best to interoperate with formats and systems other than its own.
MS on the other hand, goes to great lengths to warp things to create MS Standards(tm) that don't play well with the competition.
It costs less than Windows.
Well, OS X does, and you get more for your money.
I doubt you're anti-Apple, base on that post, however, so I don't really need to point that out.
As for hardware.. well, I don't see many people moaning about how Mercedes and BMW make expensive cars that you could get cheaper if you went for Skoda or Ford.
As someone who doesn't want to use iTunes, xmms just doesn't fucking work on the mac. Okay I'm exaggerating a little, after I've just turned on the mac it will work and play songs until some random point (and I think it has something to do with other programs asking for sound) at which point it freezes up and refuses to play songs until reboot. Not usable.
mpg123 works but occasionally plays one of the songs in a chipmonk style. But I'd much rather have xmms, or some other kind of mp3 player that looked/felt xmms than iTunes interface. Not having any song control other than ^C to go to the next song is pretty limiting.
Oh yeah, and where's a CD burner that isn't iTunes? I can't find one.
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
The *user-level* has been updated to FreeBSD 4.4. The kernel is still Mach 3.x and 4.4-BSD-Lite2. Go download the code and then download Darwin and look for yourself!
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I didn't say it wasn't a BSD. I said it wasn't *FreeBSD*. The OS X guts are considerably more antiquated than FreeBSD.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
Great. Why not buy it? You didn't give reasoning.
Good point. I didn't explain that.
Apple used to "Think Different" because they had found a better way of doing things than the rest of the industry. Apple was the first major manufacturer to include built-in networking(local talk and SCSI), 3.5" floppy drives, CD-ROM drives, built in SCSI, a GUI based OS and numerous other things than made made me a "Mac Guy" for over a decade.
Now they are doing things differently just to be different. Their decisions to lock out the Cloners, to kill Copeland, to only make machines out of clear shiney plastic and most importantly that I can't play the games that I want to play on a Mac are the reasons why I haven't bought any new Apple hardware in the past 7 years.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
But I fix more Macs more quickly with less hassle than just about any Windows shitbox you could put in front of me. And they stay fixed.
Leaves me with the question "How did they get 'broken' in the first place?"
I'll make the assumption that it was a user problem, there is no way to prevent that from happening again.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
I've seen a website about that somewhere. Where exactly i'm not sure, though I think it's been taken down recently.
% mkdir
% ls -dF
Actually, it's nothing to do with the installer. It worked fine on OS X 10.2.8, then once upgraded to OS X 10.3.3 the software dies a horrible death.
Yeah. That's right. I'm trolling. I'm trolling when you discover that they forgot to add the postfix user and the lp user in their upgrade from OS X 10.2.x to OS X 10.3.x. And let's not mention the numerous bug-fixes they needed for the Print Centre in OS X 10.1.x
The only thing worse than a Linux fan-boy is a Mac fan-boy. Get a clue.
The Finder burns CDs.
Just pop in a blank CD, drag files to it and pull it to the trash (which turns into a burn icon)
Alternatively, you can use Disk Utility, located in Applications > Utilities.
Personally, I think it's worth the money for Toast Titanium.
You can download a freeware Toast-a-like from versiontracker that does pretty much everything Toast does. It's called Firestarter.
OK, put like that it's a good idea.
Just try to build a compatible system if you doubt me.
Easy. With this I can recompile many Cocoa apps from source code to run on free operating systems, because both Cocoa and GNUstep implement the OPENSTEP specification.
Or did you mean binary compatible? Yes, I understand that disproportionately many Mac users work in a niche (such as color dead-tree publishing) that requires a patented process (such as PANTONE color matching), but many applications that don't require patented processes have a free alternative, and it probably wouldn't take too much work to maintain a GNUstep port of a free Cocoa app.
this will make an iso9660 compatible cd (readable by os x, windows, os 9, linux, etc, etc). you can then burn this in the console with os x's handy hdiutil command.
this works the same for dvds too btw
- tristan
Learning curves? We're talking about Macs right? I assume you've seen/used/heard about one before. What is so terribly difficult to do learn on a Mac? I'm about to graft an opposable digit onto one of my dog's paws so she can start using my Mac. (The speech recognition software isn't quite up to distinguishing between her barks.)
holy crap....
do you understand the diffrence between a company not being able to make an OS for a box (because of the proprietary code apple puts in Openfirmware)
and an end user having the ability to use open protocols, open file formats, etc. allowing them the freedom to not be locked into the platform?
I don't care if a computer is a black box that electrocutes you if you try to open it up, if I can take the data I create and move to any other system in the world, and can integrate that black box into any system out there, it is open for the end user.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
Forgotten about SCO already?
Certianly trying to!
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
windows uses a proprietary network file sharing protocol. apple uses nfs
.net and includes a very crappy jvm implementation. apple uses's sun's official jvm with performance improvements and native widget toolkits in os x, and this is installed by default
Um, Apple uses afp (Apple Filing Protocol, better known as AppleShare), which is certainly no less proprietary than Microsoft's. However, Mac OS X 10.3 also works beautifully with SMB/CIFS (previous versions were supposed to work, but it certainly wasn't beautiful). NFS is supposed to work, but I haven't been successful - maybe it's just me. There's a nice friendly GUI to enable AFP or SMB/CIFS sharing, not NFS.
windows has a closed kernel. mac uses a freebsd kernel (of which you can download on apple's website).
It's not a FreeBSD kernel. It's Mach, which has nothing to do with FreeBSD. They use FreeBSD user-space stuff, not kernel stuff.
microsoft uses it's own proprietary messaging protocol. apple uses oscar (which may not be open, but it's a hell of a lot more used and standard)
OSCAR is absolutely proprietary, which hasn't stopped people from reverse-engineering it, just like they do with Microsoft's protocol. However, are you sure it's still more used? It's what I use (although I think Apple's client sucks compared to AOL's), but MSN Messenger is bundled with Windows now, which means a lot.
microsoft's backing
Um, I think Apple makes the Mac OS X JVM, not Sun, and it's only "official" in the sense that Sun says you should use Apple's, instead of having their own. I could be mistaken, and certainly Apple and Sun do work together on it, but I always figured Apple did most of the work (and always has - MRJ was Apple's too).
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Actually, the hardware is made from off the shelf components. Last time I checked they used PCI cards, AGP video cards, DDR ram, ATA/SATA drives, USB ports, etc... what's not standard about that? Just because they don't allow clones, doesn't mean they don't use standard components.
this is far more a problem with the industry than it is apple. if there were several cpu manufacturers, several mobo manufacturers, etc, then economies of scale would allow you to build a ppc os x compatible machine. don't complain to apple for this, complain to the hardware companies for not offering more solutions.
As I recall, the EULA for Mac OS X explicitly states that you may only install it on an Apple computer; if you assemble a PowerPC machine from scratch, it might work, but Apple legally prohibits you from running Mac OS X on it. You can't blame that on anyone but Apple.
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
Yes, because apple does give full documentation, for free, to it's users while also giving free development tools.
Now if only their repair manuals weren't proprietary.....
$x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
$x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
It should come as no surprise that a lot of posts are in the vein of "they should have used xxx instead of Apple, because Apple is proprietary/expensive/..."
Which shows a lot of people who shout RTFM all day are above RTFA. I think it's pretty cool to see macs deployed in open source situations. Best of two worlds and such...
The funniest posts of course are in the vein of "they should of called my cousin Ned" (translated from "build yourself").
Which shows a lot of people don't know what "Cost" and "Cost of ownership" and associated factors are.
Even with Apple's recent track record, I doubt self-built kits will outlive a bunch of macs without blowing some fuses and minds, but whatever.
I think the appropriate response to Apple and NSW TA would be "Good on ye, mate!"
I think, therefore I am...I think.
You already run the native version?
I've installed the pre-alpha and toyed with it, but *use* it?
Slow as a dog and buggy as hell.
To keep up with the adjectives however, I'm as excited as a virgin going to the proms...
Looks kind of dorky in aqualand, but heaps better than Gimp.
I think, therefore I am...I think.
The majority of my contacts with Mac customers entail software issues, the vast majority of those involving lack of disk maintenance. I usually run Norton's Disk Doctor and Speed Disk, charge a nominal fee and send them on their merry ways.
;-)
Then, I get a lot of machines from do-it-yourselfers who get stuck out of their depth. They buy crappy memory, put it in themselves, and then wonder why their machine freezes on POST after a few uses. They don't jumper ATA hard drives correctly. They don't know about the excellent third-party hardware installation support from this site. I make quite a bit on those
Next, I see a lot of stuff that has just plain worn out. Especially hard drives. Some people's drives are adversely affected by moving from drier, mainland climes to the humidity here, but Apple customers--by and large--wear their stuff out. I just had to turn away someone who wanted her Apple IIe fixed (the spring that ejected her floppies was worn out).
Electricity here isn't the stable commodity it is on the mainland, so I see more damage due to that than I would normally. Some early iMacs have weak flyback transformers that don't stand up well under fluctuating power and monster thunderstorms.
I don't carry a parts inventory and I advise customers with machines older than the original Power Macintosh G3 to get another machine. I refer them either to Apple's website or to Powermax because used Macs retain their resale value and are usually a great buy.
My only regret is that I can't sell new Macs. Oh, well... surf's up.
"In essence, Appe takes from the open source community, mutates its function and intent, and then spits it back out with a high price and fruity colors."
Oh my god, that must be why KHTML browsers look so cool nowadays...
Every advance Apple makes in OSS, they put back in the OSS community. Hence the advances made the last couple of years in BSD.
And what's not open is what they've developed themselves, be it at NeXT or at Apple.
You should read up on the subject. Fruity colours indeed. Those iMacs happen to be W-H-I-T-E btw.
I think, therefore I am...I think.
Use Audion.
www.panic.com
There are many CD burning apps (besides the Finder) you can use. Try Google... it might help.
Department of Homeland Security: Removing the rights real patriots fought and died for since 2001
Thats interesting. In the main lab where I go to school, there is a few hundred windows PCs and a few hundred powermac G5s. I'd say the systems are used about equally.
From the article I gather they'll mostly run java and terminal applications, something that could run from almost any platform. If that's the case then Macs seem to be overkill. I see it two different ways:
It's a good move. If they realize what they have they'll get a couple of good cocoa programmers that will make some cool custom apps that will make things better. Hopefully users will have access to a range of applications allowing them to do new things and do old things quicker. IT staff costs should be a sizable amount less than MS Windows. Access to a Mac can sometimes really make a user's job easier and better.
It's a bad move. Overall hardware costs are likely more than twice the price of diskless X workstations and will have a much higher maintance cost. If they don't have an in house Mac tech that can make repairs downtime per seat could be weeks. Mac parts have always be much more than the PC world. If all they are going to see is a couple of java and terminal windows then the Mac's beautiful interface has been wasted. Depending solely on off the shelf applications is also a waste. Diskless X stations at less than $500USD per seat is less than any Mac. Lets not forget Apple's habit of using OS upgrades to push hardware sales.
Moral of story: In the right place (and there are many of them) using Macs in most offices are the way to fly. Creativity flows, stuff works and users are happy. Worth every extra penny. For places where users will only have access to two or three apps (like a call center) Macs are overkill.
Years ago I worked for the corp. office of a large hotel chain that moved from IBMs running 3270 terminals to Macs with the promise of saving atleast ten seconds off the average call (this would save them a lot). Users were given access to one custom app that sucked (not the Mac's fault) and call times actually went up over ten seconds per call. The project cost them millions with no chance of any ROI.
"Use a Mac" is not the answer to ever question. Macs are bad ass machines, come with some great apps like iMoive but are a waste in what seems to be a "vertical" market. Again, if the point is to give users access to a bunch of apps like Photoshop then get the Macs. If 99% of the user's time is spent on java/terminal apps then they have wasted their money.
Many, many offices that use MS Windows could really benefit by switching to Macs. IMO it's not a good thing to push Macs in places that they don't make sense.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
NextOS is a name that you just made up.
/bin, etc.
NeXTStep uses the Mach kernel for VM, thread scheduling, and message passing. They used BSD 4.2 code for the filesystems, process model, everything in
Mac OS X uses essentially the Mach 3 kernel with many additions from Apple, and the bulk of the UNIX code comes from NetBSD. The driver framework (called IOKit) was developed in-house at Apple.
The Darwin project includes pretty much all of the non-GUI code in Mac OS X, and it's available under the Apple Public Source License.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
I'm 6'4". Using a computer while standing is always a pain because the monitor is fixed. I invariably end up stooping for any machine but an iMac. Read the article. The staff preferred the iMacs. Do you think it is just because they are purty? The laser printer will probably be cheaper in the long run too thanks to the price of ink. As for the web app bit, they already have point of sale software written in Java. It just needed a bit of tweaking for OS X. How is writing, testing, and debugging an entirely new web app more cost effective than reusing their old code?
Do you think RTA of Queensland cares about games?
Probably not, but that isn't the question that I was asked.
Working hard?
Yes working hard. Buying or downloading ready made Apps and getting work done. Not shopping around for the best "work alike" for an established program and then tweaking to make it work.
Once again though, you Mac zealots miss my point. I don't see any need to continue talking in circles.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Unfortunately windows still routinely gives it's users problems (see my sig for the beginings of an example). Sure windows is improving, and I wouldn't go back from XP for any reason, but it's still a worthy target for criticisms about instability.
T Money
World Domination with a plastic spoon since 1984
didn't provide a SINGLE app that is in common use by businesses (or individuals for that matter) that doesn't have a commercial or open source equivalent that is simply click-install for a nice little comparison.
There are the PANTONE color-management plug-ins included with Photoshop, required for color print work. These don't have a free equivalent because of PANTONE's patents, which is why I specified non-patented processes.
is this about Counterstike? Go blame Valve & Gabe Newell, who used to work for MS
The original thread, before Lord Kano morphed it into a "why I have quit the Mac" thread, was about games that have been ported to Mac OS but have not been ported to GNU/Linux, such as Warcraft III, especially when Wine doesn't run the game's Windows port well. The Half-Life engine was actually one of the first to work fine in Wine.
So does anybody else have any applications based on non-patented processes that work well on Mac OS but do not have an acceptable alternative on GNU/Linux?
It's an Apple standard. It's not an IETF or IEEE standard. It may be documented and freely available, but I would still classify it as a proprietary protocol.
Protoplasm. Quiet Protoplasm. I like quiet protoplasm.
No, industry association sponsorship has nothing to do with it. In order to be proprietary a protocol would need to be held as a trade secret or patented. An implementation would need to be copyrighted and/or held as a trade secret, but it would be silly not to copyright it, since that is trivial.
Main Entry: 1proprietary
Pronunciation: pr&-'prI-&-"ter-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -taries
1 : one that possesses, owns, or holds exclusive right to something; specifically : PROPRIETOR 1
2 : something that is used, produced, or marketed under exclusive legal right of the inventor or maker; specifically : a drug (as a patent medicine) that is protected by secrecy, patent, or copyright against free competition as to name, product, composition, or process of manufacture
It is cowardly, and a betrayal of whatever it means to be a Jew, to act as a white man
-James Baldwin
Warcraft? Besides.....why blame apple for what third party developers decide? They are just following the market....
I don't think you caught my point.
My point was that you can not build a system that is compatible was Mac OS software from off the shelf components. The Mac platform is NOT open by any stretch of the imagination.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Agreed. But there are people who say Mac OS X is 'based on FreeBSD' who spread a belief among a lot of people that it's 'Based on FreeBSD' in the same way that a number of Linux distros are 'based on Debian.' Which is just plain false.
resigned
You're absolutely correct. My isolated case isn't at all an indicator of overall problems with Apple quality. Way to go, AC :).
/.). I just needed a place to vent my frustration publically, and this was as good a place as any.
That said, problems with Apple build quality seem to be fairly widespread.
I rather like my Powerbook, even though it's currently en route to an authorized Apple repair center (remember, buy AppleCare for god's sake). I'm honestly not trying to slam Apple (like I could get away with that on
Apple makes such elegant machines, with such a nice OS. So much so that I'm happy to fork over another $1000+ compared to an equivalent x86 laptop. I just wish as much thought was put into their component selection and system reliability.
Game... blouses.
Their decisions to lock out the Cloners
...saved them. Apple sells hardware. The OS and the apps are the incentive to buy that hardware. If you can't see this, you're a fool.
to kill Copeland
Also, if I remember my Apple history right, saved them. It was a project that had gotten *terminally* bogged down, and way too much money was being poured into it. If they'd been able to pull it off, it would've been great, but by the time it was killed, it was way too late.
to only make machines out of clear shiney plastic
A legitimate complaint, if it's not to your taste; however, there are the PowerBooks and the G5s if translucent plastic is not to your liking. Mere style would never keep me away from a computer if it was good on the inside, though.
And, last but not least...
and most importantly that I can't play the games that I want to play on a Mac
YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!!!!!!
What the heck makes you think that was Apple's decision??? I guarantee you Apple would love to have all the games everyone wants to play. Don't blame Apple for that. Blame the stupid developers who don't bother to port or even let someone else port it (especially the ones who use the abomination that is DirectX, rather than nice, clean OpenGL).
Maybe you should actually think a little, about your reasons, and about who's to blame for them....or is that a little too much to handle for a two-bit, anti-Mac TROLL? ;-P
Dan Aris
Fun. Free. Online. RPG. BattleMaster.