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Infected PCs for Rent
prostoalex writes "UK authorities are raising concerns about entire networks of infected and compromised PCs (BotNets) being available for sale or rent to the highest bidder. The Register quotes a detective from Hi-Tech Crime Unit saying 'The trade of BotNets of compromised machines is becoming an industry in itself. Organised crime is making use of this industry.'"
Install distcc, and install Gentoo in record time.
Kinda sad to see IBM, HP, and others lagging so badly in commercializing this important new technology.
Lacking <sarcasm> tags,
This is exactly the same sort of problem that happens in the world of prostitution: pay your "rent", get a disease.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
Good to see big industry players using their expertise and experience to enable new market creation.
Damn, one more thing I can't do with my mac.
If you can sell it, you can get stung selling it. This may be the sort of thing that law enforcement agencies need in order to start busting people.
Now, if we just BLOCK connections from windows boxes to our machines except for (say) WWW or DNS, then our lives are better. pf (in openbsd and now freebsd 5) can do it.
Me? I'm pulling IPv4 stakes up. Only been spammed once by someone with an IPv6 address.
While it is deplorable that it takes criminal action (or porn) to move technologies to the forefront, it does happen. This, to me, seems like the famed "Grid Computing", and whilst stopping criminals, I hope law enforcement learns enough to pass the knowledge on so that others can use it for legitimate computing.
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With the number of known vulnerabilities in Microsoft operating systems, (not to mention the ones we don't even know about) it is really not hard to imagine these botnets being frighteningly large. I read one article that estimated the current number at something like 100,000! I'm doubt it's enough to bring down the entire Internet, but this could still be capable of providing some crushing DoS attacks, a la SCO.
Gives some merit to distributed hosting companies like akamai, etc.
I'm sure this will be redundant by the time it's posted, but at the bottom of the article:
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How? Am I confused by think of organised crime like the New York or Russian Maffia.
what we need is a good destructive worm to take care of these. "sorry, you're too stupid to use the internet, deleting harddrive."
You cannot rent these to get those outrageous URT2K4 frame rates you all crave so much. However, it does make me think about writing a "bail me out" script to log some of these machines on a game server as my "back up". Hmmm....
Yeah, I guess I'm funny like that.
In Soviet Russia computers rent you.
We need to start beating the living crap out of people who mess with our stuff. Spammers, malware writers, black hats, you wouldn't put up with the neighborhood kid stealing your bike would you? No. You'd go kick his ass and take back your back. It's time to start kicking ass and taking back our Internet.
Whole warehouses of infected PCs for sale? Sweet. I think I'm gonna hit up this place right after I swing by the used syringe lot.
- sm
I find this article on infected PC's/networks for rent so full of sh..#$.\10# \AE \3H......
Welcome!
This PC is for rent.
Please contact us at
www.Claria.com
The scope of this is huge - true - I'm no industry player or top level developer - but still - we can all see the scope of this.
distributed applications are the killer app of the internet - XAML, .net, Java - all buzzwords. Grid computing - thanks to Oracle - The Internet - so much scope it created the biggest financial bubble in the history of capitalism.
Now - the corporates (MS?) are getting so inept that criminal gangs are stealing our future off us. Please - let's start stopping them.
i'm trying to give up sigs.
Absolutely! Boot to a CD, do a low-level format, or install a new hard drive, and that great deal you got is really truly a great deal! I wish that someone would sell me an infected dual 1.5GHz PowerMac G5 for cheap. Unfortunately, these sorts of infections--while not impossible on the Mac platform--are far less common, so I doubt that'll happen. *Sigh*.
The CB App. What's your 20?
A guy I know runs his unpatched Windows XP computer 24/7, and never does virus scans. The other day he got 1000+ (around 400mb) executable files in his C home directory. I asked him what he plans to do about it, and surprisingly enough he didn't want to apply critical updates. He said he doesn't care what people do to his computer, because he does nothing important on it. It amazes how many people must think like him.
I told you /. was a DDOS front! Most of these 'stories' are placed by competiors of the companies linked from the stories...
I TOLD YOU!!!
Is there anything that Organised Crime isn't making use of these days?
I just wrote a (bad) paper on a networking structure for games systems. I give it three weeks from when I hand it in until Organised Crime get their hooks into it. Apparently film piracy is also part of Organised Crime, and not my mate Donn, as I have previously thought.
Call me a cynic - but it seems to me that anyone who wants to get the media in on their thing cites Organised Crime as a benefactor and watches the links roll in.
OK - I'm done.
"If being a geek means being passionate about something, then I pity those who aren't geeks." - Pike65
I strongly believe that the most effective way to end this would be to scan for compromised nodes, identify them, and KNOCK THEM OUT. Then the user can call the local home-computer fixit guy to come fix their computer. He'll see it's infected with malware and fix it. User gets his computer fixed, fixit guy makes a buck, and one less node is spewing out sh*t.
Yes, I know this approach would be illegal. A felony computer crime in fact. I want legislation to make it legal and justified. I see it as self defense. Compromised nodes are clogging the internet with crap and the best defense is to knock them off-line. If I were standing in the middle of the freeway, clogging traffic and causing accidents the police would come remove me, by force if necessary. I see zombie nodes on the internet the same way.
-=-=-=-=- osjedi uses Debian GNU/Linux. -=-=-=-=-
There is a limit to that I think. Think of it in terms of cars. Imagine buying a car from a major car manufacturer only to find out that every month you'll need to bring it in to the shop and have a few problems with it fixed. While they don't charge you to fix the car, it sure gets annoying and makes you wonder about the overall quality of their products. What's worse is when one of these problems appears before there is a fix and causes you to have a wreck and die, hurt someone else, etc.
Anyway that analogy can go on forever, but you should be able to see the point. MS has a responsibility to put out reliable, secure software just as much as Ford, Mazda, whatever has to put out safe, reliable vehicles. The patch-as-you-go thing doesn't cut it, and it's made obvious by things like this botnet problem.
Isn't that like saying we should blame the dumb shit who doesn't install an anti-theft device in his/her car? Or the auto makers for not making it standard?
A thief is a thief. An extortionist is an extortionist. A duck is a duck.
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
Scene: A Courtroom
Bailiff The first court of Onlineia is now in session, Honorable Judge Foo presiding. Judge I have read your complaint. Let's hear from the plaintiff. Plaintiff Thank you, your honor. In our case, we intend to prove that the defendant, in violation of our terms of service, removed the viruses we had gone through great trouble to install and operate on a network of computers, leading to considerable monetary damages in the sum of $1.2 million Judge You may call your first witness Plaintiff Thank you, your honor. We call J. Random HackerBailiff swears in J.R.H.
Plaintiff Mister Hacker. Did you, on 21 May 2004 rent for exclusive use, twenty-four hours of access to our BotNet DeLuxe service? JRH I did Plaintiff And what was your intention when you rented use of the cluster? JRH Well, at first I just wanted to set up a program to repeatedly check the home page on slasdot, trying to get first post Plaintiff And how did you go about that? JRH Well, I wrote this monster of a VB Program, but it was really buggy and I could not get it to work, so I decided to switch to Ruby Plaintiff And what happened next? JRH Well, I chose to install Geekdist Linux 12.11 because it came with the toolchain I was accustomed to Plaintiff But, did you not agree, when you rented this exclusive access not to damage our network in any way? JRH I guess so... write your own ending.
I think a good path for D. to take would be to show that P. does not have standing to bring the case in the first place, but that probably would have come up in pretrial motions... I have to go work
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
Really, I do find this fascinating, albeit in an underhanded way.
Regards,
John
Falling You - beautiful
Presumably the exploitation of these victim-lists will proliferate with all the automated efficiency that is the spammer's hallmark. At its logical extreme, there'll soon be multiple spammers descending simultaneously en masse onto each listed victim, which one way or another results in the victim being shut down (presumably).
So, might the predators eat themselves out of existence?
(I know. I've been watching too much sci-fi.)
Seeing bad movies only encourages them. Watch responsibly
"me so infected, me serve you long time..."
No, its more like blaming the dumb shit who leaves his doors unlocked and his windows open (pun not intended, but apt!), and then leaves the car sitting in a questionable neighborhood.
Installing anti-virus & firewall software are basic computer security measures, like closing the windows & locking your doors. Neither are foolproof, but both are simply a matter of training the user. Unfortunately, its been my experience that installing anti-virus & firewall software tends to be a much more painful process.
And of course - downloading updates would be analogous to putting fuel in the car: it is basic maintenance that needs to be done relatively frequently.
Tracing controllers of a botnet is next to impossible ... and everyone says that the people running the trojans are innocent victims. Well, this is going to carry on until the 'victims' are punished for their BLATANT NEGLIGENCE. They CHOOSE to run M$ software, and Outlook ... therefore they CHOOSE to run the risk of viruses. I say we start cutting them off their ISPs, maybe even prosecuting a few to make an example of them ... windoze lusers will start paying attention to their security *then*, and botnets will die.
You've NEVER used EFNET, have you?
This shit has been happening for years, virtually unchanged. The only difference is that now it's slightly more automated than it used to be, slightly more publically visible, and slightly more capitalist in nature. But what this article is describing was totally standard for the botnet wars in 1997, just then it was Wingates and "shells" instead of worm infections and "Zombies".
(Posted AC because I'm paranoid.)
... for $12/h. Who wants it?
unfortunately, this would be illegal. however, that won't stop anyone; what's stopping people from doing this is that to someone who could do it it's a waste of resources. if you have all those machines out there you can get your hands on, why not use them for your own nefarious purposes, since the people who own them neither have the common sense nor the ability to control their own machines.
Me leaving my car door unlocked is not an invitation or implicit permission for you to help yourself to the stereo.
Dumb, maybe, but you are still on the wrong side of the law when you take it.
This is the royal you, of course.
Stop the Slashdot effect! Don't read the articles!
While I would have agreed with you a few years ago, the problems are so frequent and the mass userbase so non-technical, that blaming the user just doesn't cut it. Many users DO update their software / AV yet still get hit. At some point the manufacturers of software need to take more responsability. Someone can take home a brand new Dell, plug it in, connect to the internet, and before the first patch gets downloaded end up with a worm. It's fast, damn fast. If you're going to make grandma or little Johnny your target market, then you damn well better make sure that the product is shipped secure to begin with, and maintains itself.
A duck is a duck.
Or is it?
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We have a bot network problem like everyone else... these things riding in on the coat-tails of the M$ft vulnerabilities has given us the 'ol one-two punch.
We estimate anywhere between 400 and 1500 of the ~10,000 on campus (student resedential) machines have some sort of back door installed.
We have blocked any incoming traffic to any dorm machine (regrefully) so they can't be controlled from outside because we mostly are tired of getting blacklisted for DoSing people or for spamming.
The saving grace has been TippingPoint, a network traffic analysis tool that sits behind the backbone routers and adds a latency-free checkpoint dropping traffic related to the M$ft security exploits. And when they get Blaster, Bagle, Nachi, etc etc etc they get automatically disabled by the routers and we (IT Services Support on campus) either fix their issues for them or they have to fix them themselves. When fixed they are automatically re-enabled.
I haven't posted in so long, my sig is out of date.
Blaming the user is the least productive approach.
For the sake of arguement, let's say currently a full 90% of users are totally clueless, and it is somehow possible to wave a magic wand and make 90% clueful, leaving only 10% of them blameworthy.
What happens?
DDoS type attacks can't find nearly as many machines to work from. So the writers use a trojan, and have to increase the delay between propagation and activation. Because infection is typically a non-linear process, often approaching a square or logarythmic function for some parts of the process, the delay has to be increased from, say, a week to two weeks. Meanwhile, the patch for the trojan takes its usual month to develop, and the social structures that be are reluctant to tell even the clueful about a threat that is still unpatched as yet.
So long as the Trojan writer has abundant extra time to maneuver within, 'he' isn't strongly affected by the improvement in user cluefulness. Yes, it creates some extra stumbling blocks, such as a better chance of the Trojan being detected earlier in the process, but professional Trojan writers have shown serious ability to work around these obstacles.
In addition, although its an unrelated point to yours, these particular attacks are also supposed to be related to blackmail. Successful blackmail doesn't require a real threat, but merely one the victim believes is real.
Who is John Cabal?
Some of the viruses leave easy-to-locate proxies or back doors, which let anybody just take over the infected machine. But others, perhaps most, use some sort of password protection or polymorphism to hide their activities, so you can't just hand them a better payload to work with, like LILO or FORMAT C: or ROUTE -F. They may still leave the original Windows weakness unpatched, or they may close it, though appallingly many of the weaknesses are located between the keyboard and the chair - mail the user another picture of dancing penguins and you can install whatever you want. (Doobie doobie doo...)
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The alternative reference is something about "Restaurant at the End of the Unibus"
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The code word is 'grow up.'
The whole culture that emerged was:
"We have cruddy Macs at school until we get into Junior High. Then we get to use the PCs. And the lucky among us will have parents who buy a Family PC. And all the games we like are made only for the PC.'
resigned
I bought my laptop used. It had "property of Rent-A-PC" stickers on it, and my first night with it was spent eradicating a multitude of virii. I bet a lot of people who buy used PCs don't think of checking them for mal-ware right off the bat.
-Rich
The difference is, of course, that it's far more difficult for a small handful of people to steal thousands of cars in a night and then use them to stop a legitimate business from operating.
my sig's at the bottom of the page.
Exactly, withing minutes of finishing my first install of XP pro (SP1) (finishing NOT starting), I connect to net intent on A) making shure it's connecting properly and all settings are correct. And B) donwloading the necessary patches, never made it to the windows update page as winxp's firewall isn't on by default and blaster had my system nearly unusable on the net by the time I'd logged in and verified I could get e-mail.(this with a connection that rarely reaches 28.8)
Fourtunately getting the firewall on slowed it down enough to get the patch and clean the system.
This was the third virus I've gotten, the other I got at the same time off of a 5.25" floppy (that long ago, MSdos was still on the 3.x version.)
As far as I'm concerned that is a recall level problem, if a car or tv was that faulty out of the box a recall would almost be certain.
How is it we tolerate this out of 'comercial' software? And accept we'll have to patch most out of the box to get them to work. It's one thing if something doesn't work perfectly with some obscure hardware (though the o.s. and drivers are what's broken in this case). But to be almost unuseable is not acceptable.
Would you buy a car that if the radio was turned on at the wrong point during some songs it blew a fuse and caused the controll module to think it was pumping to much gas to the injectors?
Would you buy a tv that couldn't get the odd numbered channels after watching a channel above 9 unless you powered it off then on with the remote only?
And before anyone starts in on how computers are so much more complex than the above, or how impossible it is to test against everything, etc. I would like to point out that cars and tv's and so on have gotten VERY complex (just look into some of what the ecm module in a new car does)
And simply making shure your code can handle, in a gracefull way, any inputs,exceptions, or other out of bounds conditions it may have to deal with, and that is possible. Some languages make it hard not to and still 'comercial' programs written in these languages still crap out for things they should have been able to deal with, or at least recover from.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
One thing that bugs me about Dell (at least their consumer stuff) is that they ship a 90-day trial version of McAfee. So, the user thinks that their machine is protected, and doesn't update when it expires.
Also, one reason why I won't ever use McAfee is that they want your email address or you don't get the auto-updates.
Either ship a full AV which updates by itself without the user's interaction, or don't fool the user into thinking they're protected.
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
Most countries have some sort of legally enforceable quarantine and notifiable disease regulations relating to human health. Nations need to give serious thought to instituting corresponding legally binding provisions on externally linked computer systems.
If companies and individuals were taken offline and/or fined for infecting others, we could expect that more trouble would be taken to put in place appropriate precautions.
Everyone knows that there is a problem, so no-one can claim innocence. Letting your system become infected and infect others is to be complicit with the virus writers, and you deserve to be treated as a criminal not a victim.
At this point, mandatory DRM will be lobbyslated by our congresswhores or the RIAA/MPAA/BSA will be made powerless, as everyone with a pOwnzored box is currently not held responsible for computer maintenance - lawsuits would come to a head, and the wrong person will finally be sued, who will take them on. Either way, I think I have (not) made my point.
What is also sad is that some home routers are also setup terribly by default. Such as one from SMC that had remote administration enabled by default! So much for "putting your machine behind a NAT router to keep it secure" when it defaults with a gaping security hole that if most users don't specifically do something about this, they could still end up being compromised behind their router due to it allowing anyone to remotely login and change its settings. Using that gaping hole, an attacker could and still attack computers behind the very thing they thought was protecting them.
Don't know about the status quo, but I remember a year or 3 ago stolen credit card numbers factored into this trade as well. Makes the paper trail pretty otugh to follow...
Yes, my only tool is a hammer. And you're starting to look like a nail.
I hate to say it, but the only solution for Windows users is Paladium. Yes, Paladium prevents users from running the software of their choice and effectively puts their machine under the control of Microsoft. But their stupid choices are the problem! Besides, if they really wanted choice, they wouldn't be running Windows.
Paladium doesn't fix the system security holes, but it does fix the biggest security hole on most Windows machines - the user. It could be good for the net - provided that responsible users aren't forced to use it. At present, the test is easy. Windows users need Paladium. Others don't. (Yes, I know there are competent Windows users out there - but I've never met one.)
When I play BZflag, if you do certain activities too often (teamkilling, usually) the server will usually automatically kick you.
If your computer is infected with malware (spamware, adware, spyware, trojans, viruses, etc), it will constantly be generating large amounts of traffic on seemingly random ports. Your ISP will kick you for being a danger to the rest of the Internet. If you attempt to reconnect without cleaning your computer, you will be kicked again.
downloading updates would be analogous to putting fuel in the car: it is basic maintenance that needs to be done relatively frequently.
Downloading updates would be analogous to changing the oil in the car; it is something that is needed frequently. If it isn't done frequently, it's going to run worse and worse until it eventually dies.
Most users care about their computers but are too stupid and lazy to do anything about it. That is why when a TSR (technical support representative) -- like yours truly -- gets the definitive short-end of the stick nearly every time: an incompentent user who has a slew of malware on his/her computer complaining that our Internet is slow. if that isn't the case, they claim their computer is slow because of our Internet.
Wow, take a step back and look at that. They're saying because we provide them with the Internet services, we're responsible for their down-trodden computer. That's (somewhat) analogous to say that because I was driving my car on your road, and I wrecked my car, it's your fault!
Unfortunately, its been my experience that installing anti-virus & firewall software tends to be a much more painful process.
It usually isn't installing the anti-virus/firewall/malware software that tends to be the problem, it's the fact that the user has no knowledge of how they work, how to update them, and use them properly. Most users using ZoneAlarm, for example, complain after it's been installed because they can't get on the Internet. Never mind the huge popup box in the system tray asking them if they would like to authorize x program to access the Internet and even a checkbox to make sure it's never asked again.
I received several calls today concerning "my Internet isn't working" and "my computer is slow". Normally people don't have the audicity to ask number #2 alone, but #1 and #2 usually go hand-in-hand. At least 3 calls today ended with me telling them I could not help them and they needed a PC technician.
Hey... I'm the Mr dumb shit you spoke of. As I type, my car is sitting out in front of my townhouse (in a somewhat questionable neighborhood) with the windows down.
In doing so, am I doing anything illegal? NO. Stupid? thats arguable, as there are many good points on both sides.
If my car gets stolen, or if someone elses uses it while the windows are down; who bears the blame? I would say the theif does, not the owner.
And before you look up where I live... it's not worth stealing ;-)
If you've been following the malware watch bulletins, you've already seen the beginning of the disable-other-malware tactic.
Being on a university network does have its priveleges--we can do what we want with it. The network does just that, it blocks off all access to any machine spewing traffic of the virus or malware sort (but mostly virus). The user gets a phone call from the ATN department saying what happened and telling them to bring their machine in to be cleaned. They bring it in, it gets cleaned, and they are allowed back on. It works pretty well, and manages to keep viruses from propagating to badly on the network.
Fortunately, other than this, the University is also pretty hands off in terms of what you do with the network. Dont cause them any trouble, and they wont cause you any.
There's a lot of very good comments in this thread!
And as for you being a dumb shit - I was just mimicking the parent post. In your case, if your car gets stolen, whose fault is it? I agree - it's the thief's fault. However, that doesn't mean it isn't in your best interest to take basic precautions to protect your property. If you make your car accessible to thieves, and your car gets stolen, the thief is to blame but YOU are the one who may be greatly inconvenienced by the loss of your car. Which parallels what others have said in this thread - so many people complain about their computers or the internet being slow, when they don't take basic precautions to prevent their computer from being infected with viruses & worms. The worm-writers are still at fault, but its the users who are greatly inconvenienced.
Of course, I also agree that Microsoft and the OEMs like Dell are at least partially to blame by not making Windows more secure by default for non-technical users.
Downloading updates would be analogous to changing the oil in the car; it is something that is needed frequently. If it isn't done frequently, it's going to run worse and worse until it eventually dies.
:)
I agree completely, but I didn't want to use that analogy because if you only download updates every 3 months, you're almost guaranteed to be screwed by some new virus, worm, or security hole (assuming you are running a Windows box)! I figure people fuel up their cars much more frequently, and hence gave a better sense of timing
And I have to admit - I admire the TSRs (at least the few intelligent ones that I've spoken with on the rare occasion when I have to call a support line). How you put up with the shit you must take I will never know! I couldn't do it - I'm happy to help out a few people, friends & family, etc, but to do it for dozens or hundreds of people a day, over the phone, people who are completely clueless - I would flip out! Props to you!
One of the problems is the price. Non-technical people tend to always buy the cheapest. It seems to be very difficult to persuade them to buy a computer with antivirus tools if it costs even a little bit more. And it seems to be impossible to make them buy macs, because they don't won't to pay the price difference. After a while, their brand new Windows-pc:s are back in the shop for a "repair" for weeks.
In their shoes I'd pay few hundred euros more for a computer that would'nt fuck it up all the time and make me mad.
I'm the helpdesk for a medium-sized enterprise and I look after the MIMEsweeper and Exchange boxes
Since about 3 months ago we have been receiving an infected email approximately every other second, mainly during office hours
It's mainly Netsky, or similar and the balance of versions is leaning heavily toward the new 69 and 70kb versions, meaning a lot of people are getting "upgraded" to the latest release. The timing suggests it's mainly office PCs
We're frantically telling all our group companies and contractors to virus-check, and calling-in our laptops, but it is still flooding in.
I'm starting to make a case for using Linux on every PC that doesn't require a Win32 application, as all the usual hassles of managing a linux roll-out pale into insignificance compared to the virus danger our systems are currently under.
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
The only real solution is an ISP-side one. The ISP says, 'If your computer is spewing out malware broadcasts, we have the obligation to kick you off the internet and then help you clean up your computer. If something happens, contact our customer care department or go to the other ISP down the street.'
Now if they would be able to say "or go to the other ISP down the street, but they'll tell you the same thing" then it could help.
To be honest, I think it's way past that. Almost every computer has some kind of spyware installed now. Every friend I recommend running ad-aware or similar finds crap, and I'm sure they'll be so foolish as to install it again. These are supposed to be computer-savvy people, I dread to think what the normal mom&pop machine looks like.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
no really... what on earth are you talking about?
...at least two cases that I'm aware of, where people have successfully claimed that their machine was hacked.
I'm sure there's some ugly numbers on both false positives and false negatives out there I'd really don't want to know.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
About two years ago I download a shareware program from a particular website.
.exe files were infected with it.
After that, my PC acted sluggishly after I installed the program and whenever I when online.
I finally found out my PC had picked up the Klez virus and that a bunch of
After this incident, after disinfecting my PC, I took PC security very seriously!
I found the URLs below very helpful to keep my PC free of all malware:
The 'Home User Self Defense Guides' at http://www.uksecurityonline.com
(Thanks to spammers/crackers/blackhats, you have get a free account with a valid email address in order to access the Guides.)
AVG antivirus by Grisoft.
Sysclean by Trend Micro
Outpost Firewall by Agnitum.
My program CF13 keeps malware out of my PC by treating all email file attachments as 'text files'. This renders any malware in them inert and also makes it safe to scan said files for malware or otherwise handle them--even delete them.
The only way the botnets will continue to survive is through user inertia/apathy or, worse yet, trusted firewall/antivirus programs become silently compromised and used widely.
Yeah, they're dumb, but they're perfectly within their rights to do that if they choose. Stealing/trashing the car is a crime, no matter where you park it or what state you leave it in (ie locked, unlocked, doors open, etc)
Computer users need to take more care, but the bad guys also need to be stopped.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Exactly, withing minutes of finishing my first install of XP pro (SP1) (finishing NOT starting), I connect to net intent on A) making shure it's connecting properly and all settings are correct. And B) donwloading the necessary patches, never made it to the windows update page as winxp's firewall isn't on by default and blaster had my system nearly unusable on the net by the time I'd logged in and verified I could get e-mail.(this with a connection that rarely reaches 28.8)
You can enable the built-in firewall during setup, before windows boots up for the first time. Do make sure to unplug your broadband connection during the first couple of boots, as the firewall isn't instantly active when tcp/ip is started and you'll be exposed to the outside during windows starting up.
So, it IS possible to install a windows machine and not get hit by worms, just very hard. By design(!).
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
Well yes, one shouldn't take analogies very seriously and treat them loosely, otherwise they fall apart :). It is definitely difficult, but there are bonuses to it. For one, I have access to a T1 line where I can surf/work on my website in between calls. It's a very laid back atmosphere too.
As far as the anlogy goes, changing your oil every 3 months isn't necessary; it depends on how much you use it. the rule of thumb is every 3000 miles (or 3 months if you don't put that much).
But the analogy can't be taken that far simply because most people leave their computers on when they're not using them. That would be like running a vehicle for a whole month straight!
A lot of breathing exercises go into dealing with customers, and a lot of it is just telling them how it is, telling them flat out, "look, it's a PC issue, we can't fix it and it isn't even our problem". People need to start buying those extended warranties or better yet get some computer education.
I keep seeing posts about punishing the victom. Isn't that a little like slashing up a pretty girls face because she got raped?
To take it further, ya maybe it wasn't too bright for her to walk down that dark alley but she's still a victom of a crime. Ya maybe she was dressed sexy but that still doen't give someone the right to victomise her.
It's easy to blame victoms. But how can we justify causing even more harm to them when it is the criminal who comitited the act?
Our FBI and others can track these people down in a heart beat. Just read www.grc.com to see how easy it is for someone smart enough to do it.
So I think we're stuck. I believe we can and do track these people and know who they are. But to expose that fact would compromise their ability to do so.
But in the absence of putting these people away, to then turn around in frustration and cause even further harm to the victom isn't the answer either, the way I see it.
It sounds like you need to stop buying Dodge to me.
Get an old copy of 6 or 7.
Put in a bogus email address.
When the trial expires, reinstall with a different bogus address.
It works great, and you don't have to entertain the idea that Norton would somehow work better. (It sucks worse.)
In fact, something that hasn't been getting enough attention is that it's impossible to run Windows on a computer with a dial-up connection, unless you are prepared to run without the latest patches.
Reason being, to download the latest service pack and patch load is an 8+ hour task, and good luck getting Windows to hold a reliable dialup connection for that long via a WinModem. Plus in most countries, you're paying for the phone call...
I realized this when my parents asked me to reinstall their system after it was wiped out by a worm (again). They had install CDs... but there was no way to install the necessary patches, so they'd just get infected again. Microsoft has now started offering update CDs, but that'll only get you up to date as of October last year.
My parents are now running Linux. Over a year without a single crash, worm or virus. I think they're believers now.
Microsoft should be required to put a sticker on Windows boxes saying "WARNING: This software cannot be used safely on Internet-connected computers unless you have a broadband connection."
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
I'm noticing more and more that the current crop of law enforcement agencies are increasingly incapable of handling this sort of problem. The only way they seem to be able to handle it is if we give them free reign and throw out all of our rights.
The only thing I can see working is vigilante justice. Find out who is doing it, and beat the ever-loving shit out of them. Frame them. Do what you have to do to make this bastards either quit doing what they're doing, or get them in Legal trouble.
Yes, it's illegal, but is it wrong? If I wasn't such a coward, I'd consider it. But I have a wife with babyrage, so I must keep that in mind. Those that do not, those that are bored with their lives.... Go after a spammer, go after a Spyware maker. make their lives a living hell.
I'll cheer everytime I see you on the news.
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And people wonder why "insider trading" isn't more prosecutable.
"Your honor, I had no idea that my manager was using the intended business moves of my client to weight his other accounts. There must've been a trojan on my computer."
Yeah... It's the one the IT department installs by default so that they can make sure you're a proper company man.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Bill Gates has some nerve to charge $1000/seat to organized crime :)
-------- I dig Mobile Phones
In this analogy I would say that patching and applying antivirus is a bit in the same vein as needing to check your fluids twice a month, and change your oil ever 3k miles.
If a drivers engine explodes because they didn't perform regular maintanence and they hold up traffic for the rest of the populus they get a ticket.
The spread of worms is not just an operating system problem. A worm traverses many networks to be operable, both ISPs, overworked administrators and clueless users all contribute to this problem. Also, overworked users and clueless administrators have a limited affect in the same area. If a conglomorate of ISPS had done a job of blocking the proper ports, or you had treated your internet connection like you would treat a sexual encounter with an unknown individual and purchased propper protection...
If you had recieved an STD from a partner and you hadn't used protection you are at least partially to blame for not taking the propper precautions. If you read the paper, you know about virus outbreaks, if you care to educate yourself you know about virus outbreaks. Computer systems are not toys with a turnkey that just run, they are complex machines requiring at least a modicum of intelligence to comprehend and operate on a daily basis. You don't drive a car without a tune-up and an oil change periodically, and you don't operate a computer without regular virus maintanence and firewall protection of some kind.
No, however you are still liable if you facilitate a crime by leaving your car open to be stolen knowingly. If someone steals your car and you deliberately ignored the automatic lock switch on your car, and they go and kill someone in a hit and run the licenseplate is registered in your name, and I would bet (IANAL) that someone could sue you for negligence and collect.
Yeah, so what.
I actually rented one of these networks. It was a "Portal of Doom 8" compromised, all broadband, 10,000 node net with single-point-of-command control. I was going to use it to take over all the financial institutions' traffic, slowly siphoning off billions into various Nigerian bank accounts (I would worry about how to get the money out of those accounts later). Then I would use the network to control the minds of the populace by sneaking spoofed CNN stories into their browsers accusing the politicians of the world of being one brotherhood dedicated to raping the world's resource just to impress the Olsen twins. Once the politicians understood that I held the key to their utter destruction, I would RULE THE WORLD!!!! bwuHAHAHAH!!!!
Just as I completed my "WorldDomination.scr" script, my wife maxed out our bank account shopping at Ross Dress For Less, the rent check bounced, and I was looking at "access denied."
Dang it.
I hate it when that happens....
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
Oh wait ... this sorta IS a Beowulf cluster, isn't it? Never mind.
-=This sig has nothing to do with my comment. Move along now=-
you damn well better make sure that the product is shipped secure to begin with, and maintains itself.
Maybe we should get our mothers an IBM eServer for Mother's Day? They heal themselves...sometimes even order themselves.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
I agree, and I just wanted to give a (real) practical example, as they are easier to understand.
You make a good point about me being the one inconvenienced by a thief's wrongdoing. As such I have clearly taken steps to lessen that inconvenience (in relation to my car). There are no valuables in the car (my laptop always stays with me), I have no stereo receiver in the car (my ipod works wonders when plugged into an amp in the trunk).
There are many similar things that you can do with a computer that don't deal with the risk, but deal with your inconvenience, which I would strongly push for. Simple things like having a backup of your data, keeping both a desktop and a laptop around, keeping the original copies of all your software in order.... These things will not stop a hacker from re-formatting your drive, but if that happens (or any other computer related problems) you will be less inconvenienced.
I assume you are adressing the masses in general with those direction. (or are in a country where 28.8 is reasonable for an always on 'broadband' connection')
Still I don't recall the option to enable the firewall by default during setup, it's possible I did and decided not to as I was planning on buying some new basic protection software the next day (a.v., firewall, etc.).
Still with the anoying endless stream of reboots involved in setting up a windows system a kind of numbness does set in.
That is one thing I aplaud the linux distros for, boot the install cd., install what you want in one session, reboot ready to go. (well except earlier versions of mandrake, the 7.x and iirc some of the 8.x, would crash with a divide by 0 error durring setup).
Mycroft
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I do agree taking basic protections is somthing a user should do. However If the o.s. wasn't so susceptable because of design choices and coding errors, then exactly where would the worms,viri, etc. come from?
Also I'm not really for isp's using a blanket 'blocking proper ports' just because a worm is known to use it, someone may have need of that port for some obscure app. Now if an automated process would detect specific worm activity (It is known what most worms send as packets across the net) and blocked that, it would be different.
I do also blame the writers of such software. Unlike your std analogy, worms are the deliberate creations of people.
So as a practical matter, YES people need to take precautions, even though with raw number of these things out there I can see why many just decide it's futile.
And yes, the people who write these things then release them are definate on my BAD PEOPLE list.
And being the dominant desktop OS makes windows the biggest target.
The fact remains that windows is not only susceptable in too many ways, but is actively pro-worm in many of it's features.
I give microsoft credit when it earns it, but in this case they have fallen miserably short.
Also I've always considered basic maintanence of a machine to be dealing with parts that suffer wear and tear, this isn't wear and tear but deliberated damage. Would you consider it 'basic maintanence' to replace the passenger door after some idiot accidently bumps it with a shopping cart and a design defect causes it to fall off in 4 pieces? Also replacing a defective part or having it fixed also isn't basic maintenance.
Mycroft
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Still I don't recall the option to enable the firewall by default during setup, it's possible I did and decided not to as I was planning on buying some new basic protection software the next day (a.v., firewall, etc.).
/s:c:\cdcontents flag, and then burning the updated cd contents to a new, blank cd, but to make it bootable you'd need the bootsector from the original setup cd (though that's been ripped aplenty and is available through the magic of google).
Make sure to enter the advanced/custom networking setup (the exact wording escapes me), where you can enter an IP number.
In TCP/IP properties, click Advanced, then go to the Options tab, click on TCP/IP filtering, properties, check enable, and select "permit only" for all protocols.
You don't need to fill in anything in the TCP section, because TCP/IP filtering (not quite a firewall, but at least it comes standard) simply blocks incoming connections, not outgoing connections. Port 53 is useful to allow in the UDP section (for DNS).
TCP/IP filtering is present in NT 4.0 (no service pack required) and upwards.
It will protect you from the usual worms that would otherwise get you before the windows update patching cycle is complete.
An alternative would be to "slipstream" any servicepacks and patches (that support it..) onto the installation media. That means copying the original setup CD to a harddrive, running update.exe with the
linky
Still with the anoying endless stream of reboots involved in setting up a windows system a kind of numbness does set in.
If you slipstream SP1, you're up and running in 2 reboots, with maybe an additional one or two for any remaining windows update patches (notice that often even WU updates that can only be selected exclusively do NOT require a reboot, if you simply enter windows update again you can install more patches. DirectX is a notable exception, but then some systems can go without it.)
It's still annoying as heck though. Add to that that you can't easily mirror the windows update site. What are they smoking?
SCO employee? Check out the bounty
I admit that winxp has fewer re-boots than the 9x series while installing just the windows core, it's all the drivers you have to install seperately, each with thier own reboots that's a pita.
While this is partly due to the driver makers and partly due to how windows itself works, with linux I get the drivers installed with the o.s. and don't usually need to install driver seperately with thier own install, reboot, set setting cycle.
Linux has it's own usability issues, some pretty bad, but the initial install on many distro's is NOT one of them. I consider it one of the few areas where Linux is clearly ahead of MS.
Now how about fixing cut and paste?
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Gak hit wrong button, had more to say, sorry for splitting my reply like this.
As far as mirroring the site, what really bugs me is they don't make it easy to just d/l the updates so you can save them to a cd and install them offline so I can install from there, gonna look into this slipstreaming though as my brother's pc is getting really wonky on him and he's talking about setting up xp when the inevitable re-install occures (he's running ME right now.) On of the apps he runs is still a beta and has a habbit of locking his system hard requireing the magic reset button. Same exact program on xp doese not do this, it just gets really sluggish for a minute or so, but you can still use everything else while waiting for it to realize you've hit the [x] in the corner.
I can't wait till Linux gets to the point where I can play the games I like, and work with the 3d files I want for those games and I can shrink my xp install and usage to near nill.
Mycroft
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That happens all the time. Kid steals a car, runs into something or acuses a big accident, abandons it (or is caught).
How many times have you heard of the car owner (the other victim) being sued? I haven't heard of one. Not ever.
I would make a comment about your deficient spelling, but that would be mean.
I don't see how we could be considered to be technologically impaired, though. My study looks like something from NASA...