Swedish Pirate Demo

Arioch of Chaos writes "In Sweden, May 1 is still a day when many people get out on the streets to take part in the traditional demonstrations. Today, the Swedish site Piratbyrån organised demonstrations in several Swedish towns, demanding more bandwith and the abolition of intellectual property laws. This picture is just great. More pictures here." Congratulations to whoever made the AYBABTU sign.

Comments

Let me be the first to say...

[Cinematique]

Arrrr.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yarr, wench

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Garg]

My first thought from the headline was that it was some new translator that combined the Encheferizer with the Pirate Translator.

Arrrr! Bork! Bork! Bork!

Garg

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[docwhat]

Your quote in the sig is very close. It should read:
"I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God."
-- George H.W. Bush, August 27, 1987

Ciao!

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy cow. That is the most frightening GWB quotes I've ever read.

*shiver*

- a.c.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[DeVilla]

Holy cow. That is the most frightening GWB quotes I've ever read.

You didn't read closely, did ya. Or were you just looking for something to back up what you've already chosen to believe?

That wasn't dubbya. That was his dad. From what I've heard, (and mind you I haven't done a big investigation) this was pretty much an unsubstantiated comment credited to Bush (senior if you still weren't paying attention, just making sure) heard only by Robert I Sherman. Folks who favor Bush over this guy would tell you he's some sort of Atheist Crusader with an axe to grind. I don't like FUD, even when it's not directed at Linux.

Re:Let me be the first to say...

[Mekkis]

Swedish Pirates? What about the often-overlooked Jewish Pirates? With the little tricornered yarmulkes and the "Oy, matey", and the "make that putz walk the schlamozl" and all that.
I don't know about the looting and the pillaging, but the lawsuits, I'm telling you, we'll make a fortune!

Demanding bandwidth?

[PurifyYourMind]

I can see how people are justified in demanding human rights like clean water or civil rights like free speech. But is bandwidth really something that humans need to the degree that it should be a "right"? And if so, who's going to pay for it all?

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[arashiakari]

Even if two-thousand people marched, it would be a tiny fraction of the population protesting. Who cares if twenty-five people protest? Even if 99% of the population marched to defend their right to take your work and copy it without paying you, would it make it right? No.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[arvindn]

These guys must be prescient, they saw the slashdotting coming and demanded bandwidth in advance!

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[remahl]

We, through taxes. The government has already spent billions (SEK) on building up a good fibre network covering most of the country. However, they left it to the private sector to provide connections to individual households. This has resulted in a situation where most small towns have extremely good backbone connections, that can only be used by a few % of the population in those towns.

Public institutions, the government, 'län' and 'kommuns' should make sure that everyone has access to good communications (Internet or otherwise). Most people are more than willing to pay for that through their taxes.

Broadband connections may not be a human right, but having great communications definitely gives the economy an advantage and helps to boost research and development.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Flak]

In Estonia internet (knowledge) access is by law a human right.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Eventually it will have to become a human right. The internet will become (if it hasnt already) the defacto standard to access the sum of all human knowlege and the way to communicate. Denying people access to it because of economic barriers might be a type of discrimination.

I would think that the burden to pay for it all would be on the shoulders of society, much in the same way that public education is.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

For what? For the lines to people's houses? For the power that runs on the lines? For the upkeep of the lines?

Easily doable by taxes.

But what do you think Comcast, Verizon, and Qwest have to say about that?

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[anti-trojan]

Especially after posting 769 KB (1600x1200) JPGs on their web site.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if 99% of the population marched to defend their right to take your work and copy it without paying you, would it make it right? No.

Depends on what time frame you're talking about. If 99% of the world marched protesting people charging for products and services that should be given freely, then after say 60-70 years it would become right.

You only think it's wrong because the Bible said so, and the last xxx generations have taught people right and wrong based on the bible. There's some society's where the idea of hiring people for as low as you can get away with, then selling their work for a large profit, would be insane. In some society's if you need something fix, you go to the fixer person, and he fixes it. And if the fixer person is hungry, he comes to you and you give him some food. Sure it's mostly african tribes, but who says capitalism is "right"? It's what we have, but I'm not sure it's a universal law on earth and from god that charging for services is "right".

You're basically saying the majority taught me it's wrong, so it's wrong. On the other side of that, is the majority thinks it's right, once everyone who grew up thinking it was wrong dies, it will be generally accepted it's right. Then someone on slashdot will post "Even if 99% of the world thinks it's okay to given away stuff for free, that doesn't mean it's right.". Then someone will post that he was just taught that by the majority... Well you get the idea.

I guess my point is there is no right or wrong. It's what the majority believes to be right or wrong. And saying that if 99% of the world had a belief, you could still claim "it was wrong", is only based on the fact you were taught by said majority your whole life.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[mc6809e]

Most people are more than willing to pay for that through their taxes.

Apparently they are not, otherwise they would already have their broadband connection.

Instead of paying for the connection through taxes, they have the option of paying the private sector. Yet, most of them don't. So why do you think they'll change their minds when they're asked to pay the same amount (probably more) through taxes?

What you really mean is that everyone should pay, to make it affordable to you and others that might use it. So what about those that don't? Tough luck, I guess.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[tx_kanuck]

Telephones are the way to communicate right now, but you don't see society paying for it. Yes, there are subsidies in place to the companies, but that doesn't mean everyone has one.

Why should the net be any different? If you can't afford it, go to a cafe, or the library, or a friends house.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[LikeJAzz]

Yes, http://www.piratbyran.org/ is SO slow!

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[remahl]

Of course, I mean that _I_ think that more public spending should be directed to internet access. Others disagree. The democratic process will decide how much is budgeted to this particular thing.

Through demonstrations, one can voice one's personal opinion. Still, the ultimate decision on what will receive funding is up to democratic elections.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[itsme1234]

I got the text but it's encrypted :-) See for yourself:

Piratbyrån demonstrerade i tre städer
Inlagd: 2004-05-02 00:49
I tre städer demonstrerade idag anhängare till Piratbyrån under paroller som "Välfärdssamhället börjar vid 100 Mbit" och "Avskaffa upphovsrätten". I Stockholm demonstrerade närmare 200 personer, i Umeå ett hundratal och i Malmö ett tappert halvdussin.
Deltagarna skanderade nypåkomna slagord som "Use the force - Open Source" och "Vi vill ha sex, vi vill ha sex, vi vill ha 600 Mbit", och bar på hemgjorda banderoller med pirat- eller fildelningstema. I Stockholm genomfördes också historiens första Copyswap, där de som hade med sig egenbrända skivor med film eller musik delade med sig till sina nyfunna vänner. I Umeå delades det ut pris till demonstrationens bäst utklädde pirat, en alldeles äkta hårddisk.

Både i Stockholm och Umeå fokuserade talen på den nyligen avslutade kampanjen "Stoppa Fluktarna", som syftar till att sätta press på internetleverantörerna att inte acceptera branschorganisationernas maffiametoder när de bland annat spionerar på internetanvändare för att sedemera kunna anmäla dem till deras leverantörer.

I Umeå tågade demonstrationen förbi tre stora internetleverantörer som har kontor i staden, och i Stockholm var slutdestinationen Datainspektionen där 23.000 namnunderskrifter lämnades in - brända på CD-Rom. Datainspektionen ansåg sig inte ha tid för Piratbyrån, så listan lämnades i deras postfack.

Piratbyrån vill tacka alla som anslöt sig till demonstrationerna idag. Vi visade att vi faktiskt finns på riktigt, och att vi är en kraft att räkna med. Tills nästa arrangemang - fortsätt piratkopiera!

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Echnin]

Yeah. Internet access should be considered on the same plane as telephone access. All we ask...

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

> Why should the net be any different?

because in the future many state services will only be available through the internet. and money must not make a difference for the accessability of those services.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[mc6809e]

Of course, I mean that _I_ think that more public spending should be directed to internet access. Others disagree. The democratic process will decide how much is budgeted to this particular thing.

It amazes me how easily some people gloss over the fact that they're screwing their neighbors over, but hey, it's ok because the democratic process has decided it's ok.


Through demonstrations, one can voice one's personal opinion. Still, the ultimate decision on what will receive funding is up to democratic elections.

Right, complain all you want, but give us the money or you go to jail.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[jeff munkyfaces]

this is Sweden we're talking about, not the US - they already have clean water and free speech..

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Sunnan]

While I don't think it's a basic human right in the same way as clean air and water can be considered, I don't think it makes sense for basic infrastructure to be ran in a for-profit manner.

I'd love to see an organization that works similar to, say, Debian, take care of the infrastructures.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Mr_Perl]

Vi vill ha sex, vi vill ha sex

Yea... right.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

In America, ignorance is a basic human right.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[KingRamsis]

ouch !!! right on target.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, It should be a human right, because I believe the world would be a much wealthier (culture-wise) place if everyone could consume and create information.

A home, food and a computer should also be human rights - guaranteed to all citizens of earth through taxes or, when money does not exist, the community.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[gotw]

It's also your right to vote. If you use that right I would consider it your duty to be informed.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you heard of cooperatives? Those would be perfect for most of the production of products/infrastructure/whatever.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

If 99% of the world marched protesting people charging for products and services that should be given freely, then after say 60-70 years it would become right. You only think it's wrong because the Bible said so, and the last xxx generations have taught people right and wrong based on the bible.

And where, exactly, does the bible say 'Thou shalt respect copyright'? I can certainly come up with a counter-example: Luke12:16-21.

16And he told them this parable: "The ground of a certain rich man produced a good crop. 17He thought to himself, 'What shall I do? I have no place to store my crops.' 18"Then he said, 'This is what I'll do. I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. 19And I'll say to myself, "You have plenty of good things laid up for many years. Take life easy; eat, drink and be merry." ' 20"But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night your life will be demanded from you. Then who will get what you have prepared for yourself?' 21"This is how it will be with anyone who stores up things for himself but is not rich toward God."

And bear in mind that this is concerning physical property only, the very concept of owning an idea was so beyond the comprehension of anyone at that time that there is *NO* mention of Intellectual property or *Any* justification thereof in the bible as far as I am aware. If you can find such, point it out, but otherwise withdraw your statement. Disclaimer: IANAT (Theologian)

Posted anonymously in a (probably vain) attempt to avoid the atheist zealots causing yet another flame war (my argument is one of historical and textual reference, not a religious one per se.)

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[gravytas]

In Estonia internet (knowledge) access is by law a human right.

While I'm not saying this is a bad thing, I do think their priorities are misplaced seeing as Estonia currently has one of the highest rates of new HIV/AIDS infections in the world.
See the UN's report: http://www.undp.sk/hiv/

Perhaps they could make needle exchange, sex education, health care and condom distribution programs a higher priority?

That said, they do have some very nice internet cafes with great bandwidth, once you get used to their funky keyboard layouts.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not to mention clean speech and free water! :)

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[mattjb0010]

Vi vill ha sex, vi vill ha sex

Yea... right

Observe how information about what is being said leads to quick breaking of cryptosystems.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because, obviously, it is impossible to get better Internet capabilities while at the same time trying to do something about the AIDS problem. Just like the people in Africa shouldn't focus on education and healthcare while there's still a problem with overpopulation.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[phurley]

I guess my point is there is no right or wrong. It's what the majority believes to be right or wrong. And saying that if 99% of the world had a belief, you could still claim "it was wrong", is only based on the fact you were taught by said majority your whole life.

So everything is relative and ruled by the mob? If 99% of the people believe slavery is moral, then slavery is moral? Nope don't buy it. There are many ways to find an ethical compass, and I will not argue the positive (right now); however, you having chosen the mob as basis for all morality must provide the justification. Your current position is the same as saying, "the world is flat, because 99% of the people say so."

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[TeatimeofSoul]

Getting a backbone connection to a town costs the same no matter how many people, in the end, chose to use it. It therefore makes, some, sense to pay for it in taxes - so long as enough people want it. However, the cost of getting the households connected is simple the sum of costs of getting each connected. The fair way is therefore to let each household pay for itself. It doesn't matter if, as you say, most people are willing to pay for it (through taxes). If I'm not willing to pay for it, I shouldn't have to.

Looking at the results, in most small towns, the backbone connections AREN'T used by more than a few percent - they simply don't want it that badly. The conclusion would be, in some fictional country where reason is relevant, that it was a bad idea to rush the backbone connection in the first place.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[FrYGuY101]

In some society's if you need something fix, you go to the fixer person, and he fixes it. And if the fixer person is hungry, he comes to you and you give him some food. Sure it's mostly african tribes, but who says capitalism is "right"? It's what we have, but I'm not sure it's a universal law on earth and from god that charging for services is "right".

I've found that the inherent problem in communism lie in scale. A village can subsist as a commune, as African tribes, an indeed some places in America even. A country, however can not. As a commune grows past the ability for everybody to recognize every other person, the free rider problem grows geometrically. More people assume they can get away with doing less and taking more without their neighbors retalliating, resulting in a tragedy of the commons type scenario. The fact that people will always seek to maximise their personal utility is, in fact, a cornerstone of economics.

So. Back to the topic. Why is capitalism a "universal law"? Because it's the only real way a large-scale society can function efficiently, by putting the burden not on the society as a communism does, but the individuals. It has nothing to do with the bible, but rather it's a pretty damn efficient way of making sure society does whats best for society most of the time, and for the most part it works.

If you want to get into socialism, or Laisse-Fair, that's a different subject, but the point stands.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[kfg]

You only think it's wrong because the Bible said so. . .

Well no, not exactly. The Bible said taking someone else's sheep was stealing and was wrong. It not only said nothing about copying someone else's intellectual ideas, it is copies of someone else's idea. The idea that ideas can be "stolen" is entirely modern. Like, within my lifetime really, the way it's now used in the literal sense even by lawmakers.

What OP really fails to grasp in his point of view is that both coming up with ideas and using other people's ideas without paying for them are fundamental human rights which we all rely upon every day. The right to think.

Itellectual property is a legal infringement of that right, for a limited time, for the good society as a whole, in short, a licensed by the government priviledge.

KFG

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[ayjay29]

>>"Vi vill ha sex, vi vill ha sex, vi vill ha 600 Mbit"

More like: "Vi vill ha porn, vi vill ha porn, vi vill ha 600 Mbit"

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[aliquis]

Hey, this is Sweden.
Everyone should have good Internet access in the same way as everyone got electricity and phone.
Who should pay for it all? the government of course. They should have started it all like 3 years ago or so thought but they are screw ups.
A medium like Internet shouldn't be for the rich only.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

And where, exactly, does the bible say 'Thou shalt respect copyright'? I can certainly come up with a counter-example: Luke12:16-21.

Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.

Downloading warez, is pretty much stealing. From what I've seen the response people give when asked why it's wrong is "because it's stealing".

I think the bible comment annoyed you when I was just pointing out at our value system is mostly based on the bible.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[The Creator]

Because information is the method to do all that?

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[aliquis]

Just one small problem with that one.
If it's paid thru taxes and the government handles it everyone pays the amount THEY CAN PAY thru taxes and get the same thing no mather where they live.
If it's handled private only the few places where you can get a good amount of money back is intresting, and they get it for cheap. The others in small villages like in north Sweden would have to pay a lot to get the same thing.
Secondly if it's private the only income is for the subscription, if it's governmenttal there is social and country-economical benefits aswell.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

People like to believe they are free. Deny that the majority can actually do whatever they want.

If a society in Africa believes that it's morally right to kill and eat the oldest female in the tribe if food runs low, and everyone in that society believes its the smart and morally right thing to do. But on the other hand you're there going no, that woman shouldn't be killed, it's morally wrong! But they say no we're hungry and need to survive, it would be morally wrong NOT to kill her and eat her.

Explain to me where the universal truths come into play. Two society's, vastly different, different morals, how can you claim your set of values is the "true, correct, word of god" set. Do you run around telling Muslims that they are mistreating women and morally wrong? What about Muslims telling us that women walking around in public showing their face is obscene and morally wrong. As easily as we dismiss that, they just as easily dismiss our misgivings about them. So again, who is right? And based on what? Point is, you're basing your values and morals on the generally accepted values and morals of your society. I'm sorry but you didn't reach adulthood, re-examine your value structure, and magically detach yourself from 2000 years of engrained Christianity. You are a product of the majority. You cannot escape that fact.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[MvD_Moscow]

>>Why is capitalism a "universal law"? Because it's the only real way a large-scale society can function efficiently Bull shit, capitalism is only works because the people with money have complete power over everyone else. Just look at the USA! The whole nation is controled by a bunch of corporations. This is wrong. I am not a communist, but capitalis is certainly not the best way to organise society. Why try and combine the best from both worlds? Somethng on the line of the NEP program (with large modifications of course) during the 1920s USSR. I think it not right that while some rich bastard spends millions on a new house other have to survive on $5 a month. It's crazy and wrong.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Manually babelfishing (I'm I mere Norwegian, so bear with me, Swedish brothers ;-)

"Piratbyrån (the pirate bureau) demonstrated on three locations
Submitted: 2004, May the 2nd, 00:49

In three cities supporters of the Pirate Bureau demonstrated under slogans like "The welfare society starts at 100 Mbit" and "abolish copyright". In Stockholm almost 200 persons demonstrated, in Umeå about a hundred and in Malmö a bold handful. The participants chanted newmade slogans like "Use the force - Open Source" and "We want six, we want six, we want 600 Mbit" (pun lost in translation), and carried homemade banners with piracy and file sharing themes. In Stockholm the first Copyswap ever was pulled off, where people exchanged their privately burned discs with film or music with their new friends. In Umeå a price was awarded to the best dressed pirate; a real harddrive.

Both in Stockholm and Umeå there was particular focus on the newly finished campaign "Stoppa Fluktarna" (stop what? Will some Swedes help me out?), aiming to put pressure on the ISPs, so that they will not accept the media industry's mafia methods; spying on Internet users and subsequently reporting them to their ISPs.

In Umeå the demonstration marched by three large ISPs having offices in Umeå, and in Stockholm the final destination was Datainspektionen where 23000 signatures was passed over - burned on CDROM. Datainspektionen couldn't be bothered, so the list was put in their mailbox.

The Pirate Bureau wishes to thank everybody that participated in the demonstrations today. We showed that we exist for real, and that we have a force to be reckoned with. Until the next happening - keep on pirating!

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[The Creator]

eh? porn more than actual sex? Don't think so.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[kunudo]

and free hospitals :D

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Vaste]

Luckily I've got the key :)

(Anticopyright statement:) For starters I can mention that Piratbyrån [The piracy bureau, as opposed to the anti-piracy bureau, Swedish BSA] is serious about anti-copyright. We welcome (serious) debates and has yet to loose one. If you like e.g. copyright and GPL please consider why it's called copy-left (GPL is a hack, remember?). Creativity does not start with money nor stop without. Copyright is a detrimental restriction on the free market. Abolision of copyright does not meant it can't be replaced. Attribution for those wishing it can be handled with digital signatures. Copyright does not provide livelihood for most artists today; that problem already exist. Finally: why, now that we finally can spread all information to all of humanity, for free, should we choose not to?

Translation:

"Piratbyrån held a demonstration in three cities
Added: 2004-05-02 00:49
In three cities supporters of Piratbyrån held a demonstration with the watchwords "the welfare state starts at 100Mbit" and "Abolish copyright". In Stockholm nearly 200 people participated, in Umeå some 100 and in Malmö half a dozen brave champions.

The Participants shouted recently formed watchwords such as "Use the Force - Open Source" and "We want six, we want six, we want 600Mbit"[note: 6 and sex are homonyms in Swedish], and carried homemade banderoles with a pirate or file sharing theme. In Stockholm the first Copyswap in history was carried through, where those with homemade discs with movies or music shared them with their newly found friends. In Umeå there was a price for the best pirate costume, a real harddrive.

In both Stockholm and Umeå the speaches focused on the newly completed campaign "Stoppa Fluktarna" ["Stop the Peepers"], meant to put pressure on the ISPs not to accept the mafia methods of industry organisations when they, among other things, are spying on internet users to be able to report them to their suppliers.

In Umeå the protesters walked by three large ISPs with offices in town, and in Stockholm the final destination was Datainspektionen [data authority (of inspection or something)] where 23,000 signatures where handed in - on a burned CD. Datainspektionen considered themselves too busy to deal with Piraybyrån, so the list was put in their postbox.

Piratbyrån wants to thank all participants to the demo today. We showed that we are for real, and not a force to be ignored. Until the next arrangement - continue piracing!"

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[haxor.dk]

"Public institutions, the government, 'län' and 'kommuns' should make sure that everyone has access to good communications (Internet or otherwise). Most people are more than willing to pay for that through their taxes."

You're reasoning that because a part of the population wants tax-funded internet, the rest of us should put up with being those who are forced to pay for it, but not necessarily use it?

That is pure socialism.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[FrYGuY101]

The "Best of both worlds"?

You mean, like... taxes being levied on the wealthy, used to pay for services for everybody?

Gee, I do believe that's called a socialism. A socialism is actually a sub-type of capitalism. And I do believe I addressed that in my original post.

But, like I said. It's a different arguement, and one which other people in this thread have already discussed.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it happened in a democracy, then it could be made right. Especially if you have the majority with you. That's how democracy works. Enjoy :-)

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Laebshade]

In Soviet Russia broadband demands YOU.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exodus 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.

Bullshit

Slashdotus 23:45 Thou shalt not confuse stealing with copyright infringement

Haven't you read the Very New Testament?

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[iolaire_in_swe]

Actually, sex is six in swedish, so it's more of a play on words than a geek call to mate :P

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes it would. You only 'own' stuff because other people agree that you do. If they don't agree then you don't 'own' it. If 99% of people decided that your IP was free to copy then there is nothing much you can do, it might be 'wrong' from your point of view but it would be 'right' from theirs and they outnumber you.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact computers should also have basic human rights.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Halfbaked Plan]

Well, in the Muslim woman case you cite, the 'believers' are imposing their views on women who aren't as enamored with their 'beliefs' as they are themselves.

It's convenient if you are the ruling class of person in a culture (i.e. a man) to impose 'values' and let anybody else those rules affect just suffer.

And let's probe a little deeper and explore female genital mutilation. Do you think a 12 year old girl should be brainwashed to think her clitoris should be surgically removed? She's 'free' in her social setting because those are her 'values?'

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Halfbaked Plan]

And it would then be your right to completely quit expressing that 'stuff' in social settings. So the tyrranical 99% could suck air and FOAD, etc. etc.

Eventually there wouldn't be much to watch on TV but reruns.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Halfbaked Plan]

Hey. Bandwidth should be free. And so long as it's not free, the people who have the bandwidth should give of it willingly and not complain.

So these, er, fine fellows should just suck it up and deal with the fact that they have none for the moment, because somebody else wanted it.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Snaller]

Nobody it should be free.

(and its vastly overpriced as it is)

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Stoppa fluktarna" means "stop the peekers", it is a slang word generally reffering to peeking at wonem. It is a silly word, but the pirate bureau uses it to reffer to ISPs tracking your activities on the internet.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Jim Starx]

Your current position is the same as saying, "the world is flat, because 99% of the people say so."

No it's not. The world being either round or flat is a fact that can be tested. Morals are not facts, they're beliefs.

As for you laying the burden of proof squarely on his shoulders, that's kinda a cop-out.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Jim Starx]

How do you know they aren't as enamored?? I've met muslim women who like the way they're treated. I don't agree with it, but if your going to claim that the entire women muslim population dislikes their beliefs then you've got to provide some proof.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[BlueArchon]

In the western case, the 'believers' are imposing their views on women who aren't as enamored with their 'beliefs' as they are themselves.

It's convenient if you are the ruling class of person in a culture (i.e. a man) to impose 'values' and let anybody else those rules affect just suffer.

And let's probe a little deeper and explore female breast enlargement/being too fat/western beaty 'standards'. Do you think a 12 year old girl should be brainwashed to think her body should be surgically altered?

What's the difference? Our surgical procedures are perhaps a bit less painful, but the idea is still the same.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Black Noise]

Deciphered:

Bureau of Piracy demonstrated in three cities
Posted: 2004-05-02 00:49
In three cities, supporters of the Bureau of Piracy today demonstrated under paroles like "Wellfare society starts at 100Mbit" and "Abolish Copyright". In Stockholm, close to 200 persons demonstrated, in Umeå about a hundred and in Malmö a brave half a dozen.
The participants scanned newly thought of chatchphrases such as "Use the force - Open Source" and "We want six, we want six, we want 600Mbit", carrying home-made banners with pirate or file sharing themes. In Stockholm, the first Copyswap in history was carried out, where those with home burnt movies or music CDs shared with their newfound friends. In Umeå, a prize for the best dressed pirate was given, a hard drive.

Both in Stockholm and in Umeå, the speeches focused on the newly finished campaign "Stop the Peepers", which alludes to putting pressure on the Internet providers not to accept the trade associations' mob-style methods when they spy on the Internet users in order to be able to report them to their Internet provider.

In Umeå, the demonstration marched past the three big Internet providers with offices in the city, and in Stockholm, the end destination was the Computer Inspection, where signatures on CD-rom were handed in at 23:00. The Computer Inspection did not deem the Bureau of Piracy worthy of their time, so the list was dropped in their mailbox.

The Bureau of Piracy would like to thank everyone who joined the demonstration today. We showed that we actually exist, and we're a force to be reckoned with. Until the next arrangement - keep pirating!

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Black Noise]

Err, not 23:00. I need coffee...

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[janiz]

In Estonia internet (knowledge) access is by law a human right. i knew it! pr0n == knowledge

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Guppy06]

A moose once bit my sister...

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Exodus 20:15 was quoted in relation to a mention of the bible's position on physical property (the poster of the original quote specifically mentioned the bible not having any concept of intellectual property).

If you want to call bullshit, don't call it on the mention of Exodus 20:15, call it on the claim that "Downloading warez, is pretty much stealing".

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Why is capitalism a "universal law"? Because it's the only real way a large-scale society can function efficiently, by putting the burden not on the society as a communism does, but the individuals.

Capitalism isn't a universal law. If it were, it would have existed 5000 years ago. Yet it didn't. It only manifested itself a few hundread years ago. Therefore, it is not universal. When it comes to econopolitics, there is NOTHING that is universal (mostly because of progress and liberalism)... What you call capitalism will not exist 1000 years from now--I am pretty certain of that...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[kunudo]

Actually, the way I read it, it says "Give the church money.". Seems to have worked pretty well for the catholic church throughout history.

But it may just be that atheist bias of mine speaking...

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

The vast majority of the cost of telephone was paid by the government. The goverment was the one that spurred the investment and provided financing for telephone early on. It has only been in the last few decades that most of it has been privatized... same thing with railroads... and roads...

Internet access will likely be subsidized in the future (just like telephone was at one time). But that will take a few decades more. Right now, only a small percentage of the population uses the internet in most countries. That figure has to go up and have the potential of hitting past 60% to 70% before goverments should consider (of course, this depends on the country. An internet-oriented country like South Korea can afford to subsidized; a low internet-usage country can't).

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Artifakt]

In the USA, at this point, several communities have brought in broadband service as a public utility for half or less than what Broadband corporations want to charge. In one case already discussed here on slashdot, the private sector cost estimates were high by a factor of no less than five over the utility model. Several Broadband providers have sought legislation or gone to court to stop high speed access from becoming a public utility in some areas(monopoly mercantilism at its finest).
Sorry, but your "apparently they will not" translates into "Apparently they will not subsidize an inefficent private corporation further, after already having paid to build a huge infrastructure for that corporation to capitalize on, and seen that corporation dawdle at exploiting the golden goose it has been handed, because that corporation couldn't spot a money making opportunity if it was raining Krugerrands.".

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[phurley]

Ok then take string theory, it cannot currently be proven, but the number of people who believe to be true or false has no bearing upon its actual merit. That is and was my point, the number (or percent) of people who believe in something has no bearing upon its correctness (although is a rational world we optimistically hope they correlate).

I was trying to keep the discussion from drifting too far a field, not trying to cop-out. I believe that you can determine an objective right and wrong, without an argument to authority (i.e. some holy book). This has been a major source of discourse through out the history of philosophy. Take your pick, from Marx to Rand and hundreds in between, it is an interesting (and sometimes fruitful) topic, but off topic, so I will again "cop-out."

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well that says
"We WANT sex, we WANT sex"

That isn't impossible.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hehe... funny because it's true.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[ColdWetDog]

And if they're so into bandwith, why does their sign look a whole lot like a cassette tape with some dog bones beneath it? You'd think they could have come up with something like CDs for eyes or the like...

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[canajin56]

Hehe, given the effects that observers can have on quantum interactions, it just might be the case that the number of people who believe in string theory will determine whether or not it is valid ;)

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

heh, I like that

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Morosoph]

've found that the inherent problem in communism lie in scale. A village can subsist as a commune, as African tribes, an indeed some places in America even. A country, however can not. As a commune grows past the ability for everybody to recognize every other person, the free rider problem grows geometrically. More people assume they can get away with doing less and taking more without their neighbors retalliating, resulting in a tragedy of the commons type scenario. The fact that people will always seek to maximise their personal utility is, in fact, a cornerstone of economics.

From your first link:

Because the notion of "fairness" is highly subjective, free riding is usually only considered to be an economic "problem" when it leads to Pareto inefficiency.

This is relevent when dealing with issues of flie-sharing; naturally bandwidth per se is more straightforward.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[basics]

The entire bible is based on stolen IP. Most of the big ideas in the bible come from ancient Mesopotamian religion/culture. The idea of "christian" morals, the idea of a giant flood killing everyone but one man, monothiesm, the idea that heaven was not just for the king, an eye for an eye in the old testemant, not taking an eye for an eye in the new testement, ect ect ect.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[CRCulver]

And where, exactly, does the bible say 'Thou shalt respect copyright'? I can certainly come up with a counter-example: Luke12:16-21.

Hear hear, it's good to see someone show that intellectual property is not sanctioned by Christianity. In fact, the notion of private property is alien to the founders of Christianity. From Acts 4:32:

The community of believers was of one heart and mind, and no one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they had everything in common.

In order to go back to the root of Christianity, I think it is important to support causes such as liberation theology and abolition of intellectual property laws. If it was good enough for the Apostles and their fervent first converts, it should be good enough for us.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[yndrd1984]

IANAA (I Am Not An Archaeologist), but every society I know of has used some sort of capitalism (in the large sense of the word). Corporatism may be a 19th-20th century idea, and laissez-faire capitalism may be an 18th century idea, but the concept of trade had been around since we had specialization in the workforce, and that has been around since the dawn of civilization. In fact, specialization and trade may be said to be the primary characteristics of civilization.

Is some places capitalism only exists in the margins, like the back market, but it's still there, because trade is capitalism. Some forms of capitalism may be extinct in 1000 years (and I, for one, would not miss corporatism one bit), but I'm willing to bet that some form will survive as long as we're alive, have unmet desires, and are free to trade in order to satisfy them.

-Yndrd1984

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[blincoln]

Morals are not facts, they're beliefs.

There are several ethical systems (e.g. Rule Utilitarianism) that are based exclusively on logic and not dependent on religion or personal beliefs.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[trevorrowe]

Heres a *rough* translation... i lived in sweden for two years and it was a few years ago, so here is my best attempt:

Pirate's chest (Piratbyrån) demonstrated in three cities. Published march 02, 2004, 00:24

In three cities today demonstrated followers to the pirate's chest under the banners of "Welfare begins at 100Mbit" and "Abolish copyrights". In stockholm demonstrated nearer to two hundred, people, in Umeå a hundred and in Malmö a brave half dozen.

Participants make complaint sayings like "Use the force - Open Source" and "We will have sex/six, we have sex/six, we will have six hundred Mbit" [NOTE: the word for sex and six is spelled and pronounced the same, so its a play on words], and and carried homemade banners with priates or ???. In stockholm was carried out histories first "Copyswap" were they which had brought with themselves discs with movies or music to share with their new friends. In Umeå it was awarded to the best dressed pirate a real harddrive.

Both in stockholm and Umeå talks were held to the newly begun campaign, "Stop the Fluktarna" [no clue what that is], as an aim to .... [got lost during this sentance]

"Pirate's Chest" will like to thank all in the closing of the demonstration today. We showed that we actually are right, and that we are a power to reckon with. Till next meetting, continue copying/pirating!

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Halfbaked Plan]

Well, one difference is that when the clitoris is excised it eliminates that problematic issue of 'female orgasm' for the most part. It steals a woman's entire possibility of sexual pleasure. Plus there is a top-down theological system of coercion in place forcing the 'procedure' on young Islamic women.

Female breast enlargement isn't forced on women from a theological point of view, it's simply cosmetic surgery gone out of control. Social pressures related to appearance are shallow compared to the full-force cultural hammering that Islamic women fact.

Your trying to equate the issues is offense. It's similar to High School 'human rights' students who might try to equate their not being able to publish a newspaper to horrendous rights abuses from the past like the Holocaust or the Soviet Gulag system.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[G3ckoG33k]

Everyone else would say bliss.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[geekee]

Morality needs to be based on reason, not popular intuition. The percentage of people believing something is right or wrong has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong. Unfortunately, democracy is the best solution we have, which is basically tyranny of the majority (If you don't believe me, ask a black slave in the south in the early nineteenth century, for instance).

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[geekee]

"Morals are not facts, they're beliefs."

Are you sure. Ayn Rand, for one would disagree. If we can determine scientific facts objectively, why do you claim it is impossible to determine an objective morality?

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[geekee]

"A socialism is actually a sub-type of capitalism."

Socialism is NOT a sub-type of capitalism, but the exact opposite of capitalism. Most societies have some mixture of both. Capitalism is about individual rights to free trade. Socialism is about placing the needs of the collective obove the rights of the individual to free trade.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[geekee]

"I've found that the inherent problem in communism lie in scale. A village can subsist as a commune, as African tribes, an indeed some places in America even. A country, however can not."

I agree. The scale to which communism works is inversely proportional to how well the members of the commune know each other and care about each other. People are more likely to give up their wealth for people they know than people they don't know. A father has no problem spending money on his son, has some problem spending his money on his next door neighbor instead of his son, and an even greater problem with spending his money on someone around the world whom he's never met instead of his son.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[mikael_j]

Looking at the results, in most small towns, the backbone connections AREN'T used by more than a few percent - they simply don't want it that badly.

Bzzzt! Wrong! It simply isn't available if you live too far from wherever the actual connection to the outside is, this could in some cases probably be fixed by starting your own company and paying $$$ but the whole point here is that you shouldn't have to be a millionaire to have a decent internet connection. (I'm swedish and as some anecdotal evidence I'll point to my non-nerd friends who all use SMS and the internet for communication a lot more often than regular POTS/cellphone (yes, SMS is cellphone but it's not actual talking.))

/Mikael

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[drinkypoo]

We are sorry for the preceding comment. The person responsible has been moderated (-1, Sacked).

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[NortWind]

So, by that you would be forced to say that people who have copied the Bible by hand, generation by generation, are a bunch of pirates. Copying something from somebody else is, after all, stealing.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[NortWind]

Check out "Gilgamesh" if you want to know about the origins of the Bible. Relatively recent translation and merging of different fragments have given us a much clearer view of this ancient, epic story.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[FrYGuY101]

No, a communism is the exact opposite of capitalism.

A socialism is the de-privitization of some industries within a capitalism for the benefit of society as a whole. For instance, 'socialized medicine.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[NortWind]

knew it! pr0n == knowledge

And with Linux, internet == kernel knowledge.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Jim Starx]

I believe that you can determine an objective right and wrong, without an argument to authority (i.e. some holy book).

We are in 100% complete agreement right there. I'm sick of being told I have no morals because I'm an atheist.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Jim Starx]

I don't believe it's impossible. I believe it's a lot harder.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

No sir,

It is plagarism, only when presented as one's original work (assuming we are within the context information). Nowhere does the KJV, NIV, or any other translated version on the Bible claim originality for itself.
Copying something from someone else is never considered stealing. At worst, it could be considered copyright infringement. Nice try, but no cigar.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[basics]

yes i know...
Gilgamesh is one of, if not the, oldest written texts. originally written in cuniform by acnient sumarians or someone.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[MegaFur]

Oh, ok. So then, a more elegant tranlation, moving from Swedish slang to American slang might go: "Stoppa fluktarna" = "Stop the Peeping Toms". Yes?

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[TeatimeofSoul]

Errm, bzzzt, we were talking about towns, weren't we? A town is a collection of households that aren't far from each other. If you live in one of those then, jointly paying the that part of the connection which will be jointly used, can be discussed.

If you live in a remote shack high on a hilltop because you feel the benefits of the sereneness and solitude outweighs the practical problems, well then, stand by your choice instead of demanding of me that I provide all the comforts that a town-dweller might expect - and at a much higher price - at least until you start providing me with all the comfort that you have and I lack (like sound-proofing my apartment so I could turn up my stereo without disturbing my neighbours).

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Bert64]

Economies of scale...
If more people are paying, then it will get cheaper, and with such a large number of local users on fast connections programs like bittorrent will work very efficiently.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[mikael_j]

The problem here is that I live in an apartment building that is an amazing 7km from the most central parts of town and out here the only way to get broadband is to be a university student since the uni uses some of the apartments as student housing and they promise broadband connections to all students who live in such apartments. This means that there are ethernet jacks in all apartments here but you can't use them unless you are a student.. Neat, huh?

/Mikael

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[pete-classic]

Is this really your first exposure to Socailism?

-Peter

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[dswan69]

More people assume they can get away with doing less and taking more without their neighbors retalliating

Before you know it it is just like working for a large corporation. I still can't believe how far you can get on so little at places like banks and insurance companies; you can literally carry on at secondary outside work without anyone ever realising (if you work 30% of the time you're working twice as much as anyone else so you'll get promoted and earn two incomes).

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[lukestuts]

90% of the world would rather have clean water and free speech.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Fred_A]

Trade has absolutely nothing to do with capitalism. Capitalism has to do with capital which isn't required at all for trade. Even money isn't required for trade. It just makes it easier.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting point. Did you know that there were wars over the posession of bible manuscripts during the dark ages? In Ireland and I believe in modern-day France. It was so expensive to print a bible then that they were reserved for the very wealthy-hence the Catholic tradition of reading the Bible at Mass, because that way a whole bunch of people could benefit from one copy. Interesting stuff to poke at the fundamentalists;)

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[yndrd1984]

That's why I specified that I was speaking of capitalism in the larger sense of the word, as in people voluntarily and freely trading things they own.

As far as I know, even barter is capitalistic. It shouldn't matter whether I'm trading dollars or chickens to buy bread from a baker, as long as we own the chickens and bread, and are free to choose whether or not to swap, then that seems to be capitalism (IMHO).

More to the point, you said:

• It [capitalism] only manifested itself a few hundred years ago.

I really don't know what else to call the economies of the Middle Ages, Ancient Greece, or even the Bronze Age. They aren't the corporatism we have now, and there might have been massive interference from both church and state, but what should it be called? If you know another name for any of their systems that is distinct from capitalism, socialism, communism, etc., please let me know, I have to plead ignorance (or at lease diminished vocabulary). :)

-Yndrd1984

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

As someone below mentions, trade has nothing to do with capitalism. Free markets aren't necessarily capitalism either. As you mentioned, 2000 years ago you had markets where goods were traded but no one considers that as capitalism...

Capitalism is a collection of philsophies and ideals. If I had to give a quick definition, I would say capitalism is an ECONOMIC system with FREE MARKETS and PRIVATE PROPERTY. The existence of free markets doesn't mean capitalism if private property didn't exist (as was the case thousands of years ago); conversely having private property without free markets (as was the case a few hundread years ago under merchantilism) isn't capitalism either...

So overall, I think your definition of capitalism is not correct. Your view is too vague. I mean, under your view, one can easily say that the world was always capitalist, just like how the world was always socialist and anarchist and so forth. YEt most people, including me, don't look at it that way. To me, capitalism started a few hundread years ago and the world, particularly countries like USA, are more capitalist than they ever were.

BTW, Laissez Faire capitalism is indeed capitalism. If anything, it is closer to pure capitalism than any other type.

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[iocc]

But they arent swedes.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[yndrd1984]

First of all, I do agree with your definition. Part of the problem seems to be that the definition of capitalism is vague, as in:

"As with many common words, and most particularly ideologically laden words, "capitalism" has many meanings. There can be great confusion amongst these meanings, and readers must be careful of which meaning a writer intends in any particular usage. " (under "Capitalism as an ideology")

Perhaps I wasn't careful enough, but I specifically said that I was using capitalism in the "larger sense of the word". If you know of a better way of saying "all economic systems that include quite a few capitalistic elements", please let me know, because the other reply to my post had roughly the same issue with my wording. As usual, disagreements between intelligent people often end up being disagreements over the use of a word or phrase.

Second, I was arguing against your previous comment that capitalism didn't exist 5000 years ago. That implied to me that no capitalism existed anywhere, in any way, not just that it wasn't the main economic philosophy of the era. As far as I know, mercantilism is an economic idea of practicing capitalism within the country and state-run colonies outside of it, so capitalism does exist, just not everywhere. I think I could make a similar argument of almost any time period, even if I had to point to limited examples, like feudal lords trading artworks or the Russian mafia selling bootlegged vodka.

And that brings me to my main point. Your original post was railing against the idea that capitalism was a "universal law". The wording is a bit strong for me, but outside of worlds where there is massive government intervention (communism or despots (somehow without black markets)) or you have no contact with people outside of a small group (hermits or small tribes), capitalism seems to be the natural result of people wanting things they can't just walk off with.

To head off your objection, you say that "2000 years ago you had markets where goods were traded but no one considers that as capitalism", but it fits you definition exactly! It might sound strange, but their economy had markets that were (for the most part) free, and they had private property. (You say that private property didn't exist thousands of years ago, which I find ... incomprehensible. Judas didn't own the 30 pieces of silver, Rahotep didn't own his mud-brick hut near the Pyramids, and Oog didn't own the bead necklace his Neanderthal brothers lovingly buried him with??? I don't get it.)

Anyway, if you find something that says "Ancient people practiced the (non-capitalistic) economic system known as *blank*", I would love to know what *blank* is.

-Yndrd1984

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Sunnan]

Yeah, I've heard of them, and work with some where I live. I think it's a great idea.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[orasio]

Isn't capitalism just an economic anarchy?
I believe that capitalism is just the failure of the humanity to provide a just way of distributing wealth. For example, the USSR tried communism, failed, and what is left is capitalism. But I don't think of capitalism as a way to organize, just the lack of a system. Free for all is what you have when you have no system at all. When ou look at it, or al least when I look at it, it can be found that most of the laws in a capitalistic country go _against_ the basis of capitalism, they are in place just to amminorate the damage that the concentration of capital can do (for example, work hours, minimum wage, welfare, retirement, income taxes ).
To my belief, capitalism is just a name for anarchy economics, what happens naturally when the government does nothing, and that's why nobody implements true capitalism, even the most capitalistic societies.

Re:Demanding bandwidth?

[Sivaram_Velauthapill]

Ancient people were closer to anarchism than anything. For instance, many ancient people collectively owned things (private property was basically non-existent) and there was very few laws/regulations/etc.

A bit later on, I would say it would be closer to monarchy/oligarchy or something like that. A few, usually under decree by God or priviledge, ruled. Peasents basically had no property rights and the monarchs would seize anything that they wanted (law was on their side).

I really don't think it is accurate consider the past as capitalism. For instance, how can it seriously be capitalism when the peasents had no rights whatsoever (except for some bogus rights to placate the masses)?

I personally consider econopolitical systems such as communism, capitalism, fascism, etc to be modern. Certain elements of these systems have always existed but the full system was never conceptualized back then. I think most people, including me, consider capitalism to have started with Adam Smith. Anything before that is not capitalism. The reason is pretty simple. Yes, some dude "owned" things but if the king could come and take it away from you LEGALLY then that isn't capitalism. Systems like communism also did not exist back then because no one formalized a central entity owning things, not to mention the fact that it was impractical back then.

So to sum all this up, I disagree with your view :) It is misleading to consider the past to have anything to do with capitalism. However, I agree with your point that certain elements or traits of capitalism (say markets) did exist back then. But such elements is not sufficient for me to consider society to be capitalist...

Sivaram Velauthapillai

Warez the Future

[miracle69]

Is that sort of like offshoring?

Value?

[arashiakari]

If everyone was a pirate, what would they steal?

Re:Value?

[krumms]

music, movies and Windows XP.

Re:Value?

[Ceriel Nosforit]

Open Source software.

Re:Value?

[saldek]

Parrots.

Re:Value?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess they'd steal from each other... like real pirates.

Or, they'd realise that each could provide a little something for the others to "steal" (in a digital world this word means something different) and together, each making a little bit, they would have some wonderfully complex and amzing things.

But I sure as hell think that sounds like communism. I'd rather massive corporations beholden to shareholders take monopoly over our cultural production and give us jail terms longer than those of rapists for exercising our fair use rights which are codified in law.

And remember kids- when you download mp3s, you are downloading communism.

May 1 libertarian day?

[Anonymous Coward]

Abolishment of IP? So this is libertarian day now? Libertarian isn't said enough in the mainstream. Libertarian libertarian libertarian. Ban IP,

Re:May 1 libertarian day?

[Oligonicella]

Not all Libertarians want IP abolished. Not all Dem's, Rep', Green's,...... want IP kept.

Funny...

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously http://www.piratbyran.org/ needs more bandwidth...

Re:Funny...

[syukton]

Indeed. I got to the picture labeled as "great" by the submitter before the server melted, though.

The original was 1600x1200 weighing in at 769kb. I reduced it to 800x600 and 128kb.

Click here to view it.

Re:Funny...

[Anonymous Coward]

OMFG... what's that guy doing with his anus?

Re:Funny...

[Halfbaked Plan]

Why is there an audiocassette forming the skull on that banner? Do we need to airlift in big boxes of 5-1/4" floppy drives and diskettes in kind of a Geek Rescue campaign?

No ship? No beard?

[Anonymous Coward]

These shipless, beardless landlubbing wenches call themselves pirates!?

The rise in the landlubber:pirate ratio is very bad, Arr.

Re:No ship? No beard?

[Anonymous Coward]

As a representative of the Swiss Seafarers Association (SSA) I find your statements defamatory of us so called "landlubbers".

Landlubber, in our SSA rulebook, can only be used to refer to ones wife in the act of asking her for a beer while you splash around in the bath.

usage: "arrrgh, honey me landlubbing wench, fetch me another beer afore I set sail"

N.B. beer cans must always be opened via stabbing of can with hook - see hook, beer.

woohoo!

[MrZaius]

I'm reading this from Arlanda airport in Stockholm, and don't really have any plans this afternoon. Where's the closest rally, or was it all over on May 1st?

Re:woohoo!

[IWannaBeAnAC]

May 1st is May 1st. Its over by May 2nd.

Demonstration

[ramk13]

Am I the only one who thinks that "Swedish Pirate Demonstration" would have been a better article title?

My imagination cooked up some confusing stuff in the short times before my eyes made their way down to the description. A game where you are a Swedish pirate raiding Danish ships? A new P2P program written by a Swede? Maybe something involving a Swedish demolition guy?

Anyway, that's pretty neat that there were organized demonstrations. Hopefully it'll get some press (outside of the /. type community).

Re:Demonstration

[Hannes Eriksson]

Apparently, the local newspapers in Umeå thought that horse racing and Nancy turns 90 were more interresting than a hundred people demanding free bandwidth...

Re:Demonstration

[Anonymous Coward]

You read the headline *and* the article? WTF are you doing here?

Re:Demonstration

[rabs]

Well, one thing to be thankful for is that the headline didn't say "Hacker Demonstration."

- rabs

Silly Pirates Play With Reality

[RavidgeMole]

They would probabley just steal from eachother. I could see an entire pirate economy coming out of it: black market becoming the predominant [stock]market, thereby calling out the need for a fusia or peach pink market. *sigh* Silly pirates, don't they realize what they're doing?

Re:Silly Pirates Play With Reality

[kfg]

"Don't you people understand? Just because you can sell music doesn't make it right. Selling music is earning!!! Go read something about Subjectivism."

KFG

Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

...nobody at this demo is over the age of 16.

I still fail to see why people want the abolition of IP laws. If you don't want to pay for the music/game/movie, then don't copy it either. The reason for the charge is to pay peoples wages, buy equipment, etc.

Otherwise they wouldn't be able to make whatever it was.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Software could be a lot cheaper if there were more cooperation and building on top of eachother's work, which is discouraged by current IP laws (especially software patents). The software development process is becoming more and more like walking through a minefield. Practically endless copyright and software/algorithm/math patents have to go. IP laws are a cludge with the sole purpose of prolonging the business models around not easily reproduced material things into the realm of information which has no such limits.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I don't see why age automatically disqualifies their viewpoint.

Abolition of IP laws isn't about not "paying" for the development of software, etc. It's about finding alternatives to an increasingly abusive system that ultimately goes against the grain of society.

Re:Let me guess...

[phaze3000]

Yes, because no-one is going to make things if other people can just take a copy without paying.

Re:Let me guess...

[JW Troll]

Property is stuff you own. Ideas are something people can share, but not exclusively own - it is a fiction (yes, a legal one) that permits/espouses the notion of ownership of ideas, or "intellectual property."
Patents discourage a lot of excellent products from ever forming. Ever notice that the most successfulo patent holders often 'lie in wait' until the patent is nearly expired, and then pounce on infringers? Like Fraunhofer, etc.
Or else patent holders screw everybody, like the drug companies. How do you like paying 20 bucks for a pill when it costs 8 cents to manufacture?
Shit, you gotta use some sense somewhere to draw the line, and IP laws don't help.

Re:Let me guess...

[Arioch of Chaos]

Brilliant, I'll definitely quote you some day. ;-)

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like everybody missed the point I was trying to make.

I think that it should be possible for both free software and commercial software to co-exist. But IP laws(sensible ones and certainly not software patents) are there for a reason, to help people (not just companies) protect what they have produced.

It's no use rolling out the kernel.org links everytime, who will produce the movies that you enjoy watching if they can't afford the equipment or manpower to produce them.

This is the same with games, a lot of software and music as well.

It looks like most people who replied to my original comment aren't over the age of 16 either and can't see beyond their zealot ways. For reference I'm always recommending alternatives to the Microsoft grindwheel and use Gentoo on my home machine.

Re:Let me guess...

[nacturation]

Thank you for making the point. And just what laws would those organizations invoke should I create a project called "Apache's GNU OpenOffice GNOME: Debian SourceForge edition"? I don't think they'd be so willing to give up their Intellectual Property when it doesn't suit them.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do the Piratbyrån drink coffee ?

Because Intellectual Proper Tea is theft.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's the old expression:

"If you're not a socialist by the time you're twenty, you have no heart. If you're not a capitalist by the time you're thirty, you have no brain."

Re:Let me guess...

[AmicoToni]

There are other ways. Think about academia. Results of years of research are published and freely available for all to use.
Is research dead because of that? Far from it. There is a pool of public money used to reward research. How to judge who deserves the reward (cash/publications)? Peer review.
Do you see the point? The current laws almost never reward the actual creator of the intellectual property, but only those who have the economic power to exploit that creativity.
Things could improve for users as well as for inventors/artists.
A form of peer review could be the key.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like everybody missed the point I was trying to make.

that's because you were insulting to a wide portion of your audience.

it's pretty easy to miss a subtle point when it's being said by an asshole.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

That's trademark, not intellectual property. You could certainly copy all of their code and use it yourself, of course. You just can't use their names without their permission.

Re:Let me guess...

[nacturation]

That's trademark, not intellectual property. You could certainly copy all of their code and use it yourself, of course. You just can't use their names without their permission.

Perhaps you should read what the World Intellectual Property Organization has to say about it. They list the following as intellectual property:

• patents
• trademarks
• industrial designs
• geographical indications
• copyright

So if an organization is in favor of abolishing intellectual property, why would they take offence if I used their trademark?

Re:Let me guess...

[Aderym]

I saw nobody below the age of 16. Anyway, I was at the demonstration and I don't think we should remove any copyright laws. I think we should reform them. Copyright as we know it is more designed to make companys like the recording companys and microsoft richer. It is a result of several decades lobbying by already wealthy persons and companys. It is definatly past time to look over them again. But if we look past that, The real reason I was there was because the fact that private organizations founded by different companys shouldn't be allowed to do the law enforcement which is what the situation more and more looks like today.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Commercial music and such sux anyway. The removal of copyright would just kill off commercial music - not music made by real artists. (the same goes for software, movies, etc).

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

"...If you're not a patriotic american by the time you're forty there's still hope for you."

Re:Let me guess...

[Dolda2000]

Otherwise they wouldn't be able to make whatever it was.

Is it just me, or does that sound just like the usual FUD for why {F,OS}S is doomed to fail?

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

You guys seriously need to work on you PR-strategy:

Copyright as we know it is more designed to make companys like the recording companys and microsoft richer: If your goal is to take money from the rich companies and give to the poor, then I don't understand why you restrict yourselves to discussing piracy and copyright. Isn't this somewhat narrowminded? At least you must give an argument why copyright is different from other kinds of property. Dressing yourselves up as pirates surely does not enable you to convey this message.

.. private organizations founded by different companys shouldn't be allowed to do the law enforcement.. . I fully agree with you that private organizations should not do law enforcement. However if you wish to convince the public, then you must give some example potential problems. You could give an example of Antipiratbyran picking the wrong guy. You could argue that giving this kind of power to private companies is undermining the democracy. But walking around with banners refering to old computer games just make you look like idiots (even though you are over 16 years old)

If you guys had a political agenda then I would respect you (even though I disagree). However I find it pathetic to start a demonstration for your right to use kazaa. Quite frankly I believe that you are just a group of young clowns that want to go to televison.

Re:Let me guess...

[16K Ram Pack]

How do you like paying 20 bucks for a pill when it costs 8 cents to manufacture?

How about having a much reduced drug research programme? If you are arguing for more government research into drugs, great, but no-one much is going to fund drug research to then see their competitors just copy it.

Re:Let me guess...

[16K Ram Pack]

I think works by people like The Beatles or The Rolling Stones (well, the 60s stuff, anyway) should now be in the public domain. They're part of British heritage. 30 or 40 years is plenty of license IMO.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Problem is, that only works under the assumption that the drug companies actually work for the public good, and not on a free market...

Develop a cure for HIV? What for when the current medicines keep their patients alive much longer and skins them of ten times the money? Nah, better spend those money on enhancing our Penis Enlargement pills instead. That's where the *real* money lies.

Not saying that Patents are all bad, hell, some even make sense. But companies will *never* work for the common good. They're out to make money, and unfortunately money is often not the same as what they should do to survive long-term.

Re:Let me guess...

[Halfbaked Plan]

Definitely.

Then all those great 60's tunes could be used in televison and radio commercials to such excess that they would by now be considered annoying background noise.

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Crazily enough, research done and released for free can and is copyrighted by businesses. This then means that the developers, largely educational institutions now must pay to use their own research.

This has ment much research is no longer published freely and education is more expensive.

Yay IP, we need more of this.

Re:Let me guess...

[Artifakt]

Uhm, because they support trademarks, copyrights, patents amd suc, but disagree with the WIPO about them all falling under a common category that is not found in common law or the US constitution.
I don't think there should be special penalties for killing left handed people, so by your logic, I'm pro murder.
In the same way, I don't want patents to last forever, just because "they're IP" and one type of thing some people cass as IP (Trademarks) can last forever.
I don't want trademarks to become something the user doesn't have to defend, just because "they're IP", and "Some types of IP" (Copyright) don't have to be defended, so now no type should.
I don't want more court cases like SCO vrs. IBM where the arguement over just what is being violated keeps shifting as SCO looks for a way to claim some sort of generic IP violation instead of a specific issue.
I don't want there to be a law that has no constitutional authority behind it and that gives any "IP" holder half a dozen of what were my legitimate rights. I don't think an author's copyright extends to forcibly recalling all copies of his book because he has changed his views. If he made an ass of himself publicly, tough. I don't think that copyright extends to me not being able to quote even a small portion of a work, or to prohibiting me from transcribing it to another medium, or otherwise making the work more acessable to me.
While we're at it, what does the law say about geographical indications? Do they expire? Do they have to be registered? Do they have to be painted in bright orange, in letters visible from orbit? Am I legallly required to say "Deutschland" and not "Germany"? Worse, do I owe somebody a fee for saying either? How can geographical indications be part of something called IP law, if there aren't laws protecting someone's right to own geographical indications?

Re:Let me guess...

[nacturation]

Uhm, because they support trademarks, copyrights, patents amd suc, but disagree with the WIPO about them all falling under a common category that is not found in common law or the US constitution.

If someone's going to talk about abolishing intellectual property and they make no distinction, one has to assume that they don't know what is considered intellectual property in a legal sense. A trademark is something which is property. An individual or company can *own* it, and have exclusive use of it. And since it's not a physical good, it's *intellectual* property. And why do you refer to common law and the US constitution? Do you think those should be the only sources of legitimate laws governing commercial behavior? In that case, I hope you don't mind abusive monopolies, stock market scams, child labor, and many other things you'll not find in either of those sources.

When you boil it down, trademark is common sense. Let's say you're into woodworking and you build a unique line of furniture and call it "The Artifakt Collection" (actually, that sounds pretty cool!). Trademark law says that I can't come along, create products, and scam consumers by passing them off as being "The Artifakt Collection". Or let's say you go to the movie theater and they're showing "Star Wars III". So you pay your $10 or whatever for a ticket, sit down, and the movie is nothing but two hours of the goatse guy pulling his ass open. So trademark protects ordinary people from getting scammed. Nobody can legally call their product "Star Wars" without permission.

Copyright law is also common sense. Let's say you write a book and go to the trouble of getting it printed up so that it has a nice leather binding, beautiful full-color glossy illustrations, and wonderfully laid out text. It's such a good book you think most families would want to get one for themselves and their children to read together on a rainy day. You get thousands of copies printed up and put into stores, and this costs you $20 a copy to do... so you'll need to charge maybe $24.95 if all you want to do is just to recoup your costs. Wal-Mart comes along, sees your book, and rushes out to their suppliers, gives them a copy, and tells them to duplicate it. Because of Wal-Mart's extensive buying power, they're able to have a duplicate book, right down to the quality of leather binding and glossy pages, for only $10 a copy. So Wal-Mart puts the book on sale for $14.95 right next to your book which sells at $24.95. Wal-Mart fucked you over and you go bankrupt, but hey... it's only copyright law and you shouldn't have a right to defend your work, right?

Or I could go into an example about you being a musician, spending a year writing and recording a song, and a competing band does a digital rip of the song and releases the exact same binary image as their own. Hey, it's only copyright... not part of the US constitution, so who cares.

Now if people think that patents and copyright are bad, why not just say "abolish patents and copyright"? Lumping it all under the moniker intellectual property is either ignorant or intellectually dishonest.

While we're at it, what does the law say about geographical indications?

Read up on it. A geographical indication is there to protect consumers from fraud. Let's say I go to Mexico, find a supplier of cheap orange juice, and market under a fancy label calling it "Pure Premium Florida Orange Juice". Now if Florida is a geographical indication, I can't do that without being sued six ways to Sunday. Also, Champagne refers to the type of sparkling wine which comes from one place, the Champagne region of France. That means I can't take cheap bottles of white wine which cost $5, have them carbonated, and scam consumers by marketing it as Champagne. I *could* still legally sell that same cheap carbonated wine as sparkling wine, even going so far as to come up with a really slick label and marketing blurb and charging $30 a bottle, but I just can't legally pass it off as being Champagne.

So what do you figure. Should geographical indications expire as patents currently do?

Re:Let me guess...

[Anonymous Coward]

Regardless of the reason, it made me happy to see you and all your friends out getting some sun and fresh air.

All good pirates need to make sure to get enough vitamin D.

Yaarrghh!

Re:Let me guess...

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

It is copyright which protects free software. Without copright, corporations would be able to take and modify those products without giving their work back to the community.

The GPL *requires* copyright to work. Without copyright, everything is public domain.

Open source would not exist as we know it without copyright.

Re:Let me guess...

[Artifakt]

1. "Now if people think that patents and copyright are bad, why not just say "abolish patents and copyright"? Lumping it all under the moniker intellectual property is either ignorant or intellectually dishonest."

Why just 'if people think (these things) are bad'? I'd say lumping it all together is either ignorant or dishonest, period.

The WIPO ARE the people who are trying to lump patents, trademarks, and other forms of of the INTELLECTUAL category IP under the blanket LEGAL category of IP. That doesn't sound so bad in itself (normally, one would hope that the legal categories are in accord with the facts, so if it's a fact that copyright law shares properties with trademark law, you'ld think it would be a good thing if the law recognized this).
However, the WIPO has done it by arguing for law in one area such as Patents to be selectively interpreted so that it applies to other areas, and the persons doing the selecting would be the legal representitives of large corporations, whose lawyers are (coincidentally) WIPO members.
The latest US law they endorsed would have terribly blurred the distinction between civil and criminal law, and shows prtty clearly that the real issue here is fundamental and constitutional. Now if you want to go into court, in a civil suite, facing an opponent that has had the US govenment pay their costs of investigation and presecution, keep supporting the WIPO's acts and definitions. They do logically lead to IP law trumping all sorts of other laws, including the constitution.

2.It sounds like geographical indications could already be protected as trademarks (dual protection was exactly my complaint in my first post, if you recall, as in "The judge won't let us sue under trademark law, so we want to refile for a Tradesecret violation. Oops, he doesn't like that either, so can we refile for a copyright violation?").
You do know that a whole manufacturers organization like the Florida Orange Grower's Association can jointly file for a trademark?. Also, isn't a lot of this protected by 'consumer' representation laws? And if it isn't, shouldn't those laws be fixed instead of adding more IP laws? Or are you argueing that consumer protection also falls under IP law?

3. "Hey, it's only copyright... not part of the US constitution, so who cares."

Look up "straw man arguement" on Google. I certainly never said that copyright wasn't part of the US constitution. You've delivverd a little sermon on things I and many if not most Slashdot readers already know, missed apparently every point I made, and attempted to put words into my mouth. Is there anything else you would care to do to try to win your arguement?

Re:Let me guess...

[nacturation]

However, the WIPO has done it by arguing for law in one area such as Patents to be selectively interpreted so that it applies to other areas, and the persons doing the selecting would be the legal representitives of large corporations, whose lawyers are (coincidentally) WIPO members.

I don't know what you're referring to here. Could you provide details on these selective patents? What kind of interpretation are you talking about, and what other areas are these patents being enforced in?

You do know that a whole manufacturers organization like the Florida Orange Grower's Association can jointly file for a trademark?

Of course. Providing that the trademark isn't already registered in the same industry.

Also, isn't a lot of this protected by 'consumer' representation laws? And if it isn't, shouldn't those laws be fixed instead of adding more IP laws? Or are you argueing that consumer protection also falls under IP law?

I'm saying that the impetus for the creation of a lot of IP laws is likely due, in part, to consumer protection. And who's to say that consumer protection laws need fixing? But assuming they do, one way of fixing them might be to introduce some legislation saying that a second company cannot carry on trade using the logos or business/product name as a first company as this could deceive consumers into thinking that the second company is the origin of those particular marks. But then, haven't we just introduced trademark law all over again?

3. "Hey, it's only copyright... not part of the US constitution, so who cares."

Look up "straw man arguement" on Google. I certainly never said that copyright wasn't part of the US constitution. You've delivverd a little sermon on things I and many if not most Slashdot readers already know, missed apparently every point I made, and attempted to put words into my mouth. Is there anything else you would care to do to try to win your arguement?

No, of course you never said that. You'll notice (or maybe not) that I was being facetious in saying that. However, perhaps I did miss the main thrust of your constitutional reference. Could you explain further what you meant by:

• "Uhm, because they support trademarks, copyrights, patents amd suc, but disagree with the WIPO about them all falling under a common category that is not found in common law or the US constitution."

Oh boy,here we go again...

[nukey56]

Arrr mateys! Three swigs ah rum to anyone who can find out who slashdotted our ship! Yarr!!

Re:Oh boy,here we go again...

[paul248]

Three swigs ah rum to anyone who can find out who slashdotted our ship! Yarr!!
I think it was slashdot.

Re:Oh boy,here we go again...

[nukey56]

I think I'm going to be sick.. my sea-legs aren't sprouting right. Oh, wow, I'm not really a pirate!

*pukesoverthesideoftheboatandmanagestoscareawayt he lastgirlawakeatthishour*

Re:Oh boy,here we go again...

[Anonymous Coward]

So the slashdot server sent out thousands of requests and overloaded it? Or do you suppose it was the readers of slashdot who did that, not slashdot itself?

Sigh... yes... piratbyrån

[NickeB]

It's unfortunate that piratbyrån get's this kind of publicity, but I'll try to fill you in.

Piratbyrån (roughly translated to "The bureau of piracy") was formed as a childish response to the lawyerfilled "Antipiratbyrån" (I think you can take a guess at the translation).

The "members" are mostly 14 year old kids, who just discovered that "heeey! i can use kazaa to download pr0n! wow!", and shortly after discovered "what do you mean it's illegal? I'll pirate anyway, motherbitches!" and is as of thus filled with these crying fools. Noone with half a brain takes them seriously, and I hope none of you do either.

I'm not, repeat not, som kind of guardian of antipiratbyrån, but piratbyrån uses just the kind of methods that makes antipiratbyrån look like the good guys. Unfortunate indeed.

Re:Sigh... yes... piratbyrån

[Arioch of Chaos]

It's unfortunate that piratbyrån get's this kind of publicity, but I'll try to fill you in.

Sorry . . . But I did submit it under "It's Funny, Laugh" ;-) Basically, I agree with you but I do think it's good that someone starts making some noise. I am not against IP but I do think that we need a discussion about it in society. Nowadays, all you hear (except on /. and a few other sites) is the people crying "theft".

Re:Sigh... yes... piratbyrån

[NickeB]

True as that may be, piratbyrån is more of a focal point that says "We have pirate torrents at our site" rather than wishing for some reform, or to enlighten the swedish people. They're a bunch of kids, and one of the few with an IQ > 80 found out how to register a domain and set up a webserver.

Antipiratbyrån has been fairly quiet for a while now, which makes matters worse if you ask me, though they're both using the wrong methods of getting their points across.

You may have indeed have posted this as "It's Funny, Laugh"(tm), but someone is bound to take it seriously. Since it's popular to bash americans today, i'll say that some american is bound to take you seriously ;)

Re:Sigh... yes... piratbyrån

[Anonymous Coward]

That's not true, they consist of journalists, graphic designers, free software activists, free speech activists and so on.

They have participated in debates on swedish national television, been written about in newspapers etc.

I think the media sees them as harmless clowns, that there is no danger of them causing real change, and that's why they're willing to give them attention, that they have some entertaining value.

However, I chatted with one Piratbyrån member, who's hatred towards intellectual property was very intense, very pure.
He didn't come off as a clown to me, he seemed very serious.

Re:Sigh... yes... piratbyrån

[Anonymous Coward]

Reading the website I find it difficult to guess how serious these kids really are.

One possibility is that they really believe that piracy is good. In this case they should probably consult a spin-doctor to be able to get their message through.

Another possibility is that they don't care much about the messager. Presumably they like the idea of getting media attention for conveying a message that they don't believe in for real. In this case I find them truly pathetic.

Anyway my girlfriend and I do not support software piracy.

Re:Sigh... yes... piratbyrån

[Oligonicella]

"I chatted with one Piratbyrån member, who's hatred towards intellectual property was very intense, very pure."

Yes. My guess is he's rather upset it's illegal for him to roam the web, snatching other people's work here and there, and pasting them together so that he can sell it without doing any real work himself. Such a shame, so unfair.

Much like what research and term papers have become in college today.

Re:Sigh... yes... piratbyrån

[xRelisH]

The "members" are mostly 14 year old kids, who just discovered that "heeey! i can use kazaa to download pr0n! wow!", and shortly after discovered "what do you mean it's illegal?

I believe in the right for every human being to have free porn, and will fight for that right!

Re:The letter “Å”

[Anonymous Coward]

More like the o in go.

too bad it's not iceland

[blair1q]

Too bad it's not Iceland. Then we could say "Slashdottir".

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Sven-Erik]

That would mean the daughter of Slash.

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Fafner]

OMG, that was the funniest comment I've seen in a long, long time.

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm convinced... there's definitely a disease going around which causes people to explain the joke!

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Anonymous Coward]

Sera skemtingarsamt ;o) (No it's not Icelandic... but close)

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[martingunnarsson]

And that's about the same thing as "son of a bitch"?

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Anonymous Coward]

"son of a bitch" would be "Hyndason" in scandinavian...

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Sven-Erik]

It would be "horesønn" in Norwegian, but this "Scandinavian" language, I have never heard about...

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[tormentae agent]

Scandinavian is a "language" that many Icelanders learn in school. It is sort of a hodge-podge mix of Danish, Swedish and Norwegian, using the words and accentuation that is the easiest for anyone from the three Scandinavian countries to understand. This way, they don't have to learn each of Swedish, Danish and Norwegian, but can get away with one "language". IANAI(celander), so, Icelanders, correct me if I got this all wrong.

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Sven-Erik]

After a little googling, it seems that they learn a scandianavian language as a secondary language, but not a hodge-podge mix. Most of the Icelanders I have met speak Danish, but since Danish, Swedish and Norwegian have so close roots and are very similar, it is easy to understand each other. So there should not be a need for a hodge-podge mix. But then IANAI... ;-)

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[StefanF]

IAAI (celander) There is no such thing as "Scandinavian", in Iceland we learn Danish as a 2nd language (except people who have lived in another Nordic country, they can learn that country's language). Danish Swedish and Norwegian are similar so if you speak one you can manage in the others. BTW "son of a bitch" is tikarsonur (with i acute)

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, as an Icelander, I guess I can correct you.

We do not learn anything called "scandinavian". We do learn Icelandic, which hasn't changed that much over the last thousand years. This is very similar to the languages spoken in Norway, Sweden and Denmark around that time.

We do have to learn Danish in school, but most people wouldn't be able to make themselves understandable in it if their life depended on it. Mostly we just speak English in other countries.

Anyway, back to lurking.

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Anonymous Coward]

Well it's quite clear I meant Swedish, the only real language in Scandinavia. Oh look at me, I'm almost americanilly arrogant. Can I have a green card? I passed the test.

Re:too bad it's not iceland

[Anonymous Coward]

By the way do you understand the words when Bjørk sings in danish? As a dane I find it slightly incomprehensible :)

Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Jugalator]

They think piracy is a right. They at the very least wish to get rid of copyrights so they can perform software piracy without a fear of getting caught. They encourage people to swap copyrighted works burnt on CD's on the demonstration, etc. "Piratbyrån" also means "The Piracy Bureau" in english. Miles from what the EFF stand for, for example.

I think there's a line between fighting for freedom (software patents and so on), and fighting for piracy, and these guys crossed it.

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Anonymous Coward]

"I think there's a line between fighting for freedom (software patents and so on), and fighting for piracy, and these guys crossed it."

Well, they're not the same thing I agree, but you seem to misunderstand something fundamental. What they're demonstrating for is the abolition of copyright. Once that's done then by defintion you can't infringe on someone's copyright and thus cannot be a pirate. In other words, they're not fighting for the right to pirate they're fighting for the right to copy with impunity without having to resort to piracy.

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Anonymous Coward]

If they're fighting against copyright they are fighting for freedom, believe or not.
(in contrast, if they were really fighting for piracy, they would be for all those insane patent laws etc, making pirating more and more widespread)

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Anonymous Coward]

The line is that copyright's good, patents aren't, and that's that.

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[d97mno]

Well actually copyswap is legal in most instances. If you purchase a CD you may make copies of it and even give those copies away to close friends. Even downloading mp3's from the Internet is legal, it is sharing that is not legal, as you are sharing to people whom you do not know. Oh, and you are not allowed to share music unless you own a legal copy of the work.

So all in all, most instances of copyswap are actually legal. Movies however, usually come with extra restrictions.

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[kfg]

They at the very least wish to get rid of copyrights so they can perform software piracy without a fear of getting caught.

Well, at the very least they are fighting for a world in which you couldn't have typed that sentence without realizing it's an oxymoron.

So, even if they don't have a chance in hell of abolishing copyright, perhaps they can have some effect on the public's awareness of the philosophical questions of same.

KFG

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Jugalator]

Once that's done then by defintion you can't infringe on someone's copyright and thus cannot be a pirate.

No, maybe I should've worded myself differently, but I hope you get my point anyway. Obviously, if no copyrights would exist, it would be called "software copying" instead of "software piracy". However, the end goal for these guys are just to download and spread the latest music, movies and software, while pissing on copyrights and the rights of the authors. Heck, they even have a BitTorrent tracker ("The Pirate Bay") where the only stuff they do is copyright infrigement, even if it's illegal today.

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Jugalator]

If they're fighting against copyright they are fighting for freedom, believe or not.

Yeah, the freedom to copy any author's work without any respect for his/her rights. Yes, I agree about that.

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Reality Master 101]

18th Century: Sailed to the New World to escape religious persecution.

1865: People put down their lives to end slavery.

1945: Millions die to stop Hitler and preserve freedom.

1970: Massive protests for civil rights.

2004: Protest for the right to steal other's work.

Nah, this generation isn't spoiled. What makes you think so?

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I didn't say that I agreed it would be a good thing.

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Anonymous Coward]

Neither did I :-)

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[Vaste]

1970: Massive protests for civil rights. 2004: Protest for the right to communicate freely. 2032: Protest for the right to write a book. 2051: Protest for the right to hold a protest. Why would we be spoiled?

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[bludstone]

Yes, because not 2 years ago the largest protest in history occured.

It was against the war in iraq, and involved more then 10 million people, worldwide, all on the same day.

http://www.captaincynic.com/thread.php3/thrdid=1 13 18-u-frmid=16

Re:Why I don't take this organization seriously...

[mOdQuArK!]

Yeah, the freedom to copy any author's work without any respect for his/her rights.

What "rights"? The right to receive money over and over again for a single act of creation? Why should authors be treated any differently than any other craftsperson who is compensated for selling a good or performing a service?

Yarrr

[l0ungeb0y]

Yarrr ... Share me some MP3's on yon fat pipe matey .... Yarrr

And not a peg leg amongst the lot of 'em. These swabbies aren't much for piratin, but I ain't never met me a pirate worth his salt hailing from Sweden.

Back when I was earnin me sea-legs we'd be out a rapin' and a pillagin' and a downloading our warez over 28baud ... and ain't no p2p in those days either.

Yarrr, more rapin and a pillagin and a downloadin' and less parades say me.

Re:Yarrr

[Anonymous Coward]

So I take it you downloaded 'Pirates of the Caribbean' and watch it...what, at least once a day?

Re:The letter “Å”

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm from Sweden!

and...

[RavidgeMole]

and Paris Hilton video.

why May 1 as the 'traditional' day of protest?

[fantomas]

... because in 1889, The Second International organized in Paris and set May 1 as a day of international labor solidarity, to support US trade unionists. European socialists like Engels decided it was important to publicise the plight of poor working conditions in the USA.

Re:why May 1 as the 'traditional' day of protest?

[mkro]

No, no, everyone knows it is because the Bavarian Illuminati was founded by Adam Weishaupt on May 1, 1776.

At least, that is what they want us to think.

Re:why May 1 as the 'traditional' day of protest?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually not just poor working conditions - but to let the voices of the dead americans who were gunned down during a us demonstration shout from the grave and never be forgotten....

Re:why May 1 as the 'traditional' day of protest?

[Halfbaked Plan]

'To support US trade unionists' translates:

To commemorate the Mayday Massacre of US laborers in Chicago, which occured on May 1st.

What's with all the 'Europe' stuff? It's a holiday that commemorates an American event in history.

Re:why May 1 as the 'traditional' day of protest?

[Torodung]

I figured it was because in England, May 1st is, by some, considered a day to let down one's hair and engage in lascivious behavior.

In Sweeden, they engage in lascivious behavior on every day BUT May 1. On May 1st they go out and protest (which proabably gets them all laid anyway, now that I think about it).

Re:why May 1 as the 'traditional' day of protest?

[$lashdot]

That's only the labour origin of the day in Europe. The labor origin of the day in the USA is from three years earlier, in 1886, when about 800 American strikes were called in (out of 1,600 that year).

Although, one of those 1886 May Day strikes resulted in the Haymarket incident, the US labor movement stuck to its movable Labor Day in September, because a guaranteed weekday off with a three-day weekend each year was preferable to a holiday that sometimes falls on the weekend.

So, USA Labor Day, 1884
USA (Labor) May Day, 1886
Europe (Labour) May Day, 1889.

Of course, the significance of May 1st, itself, with Maypoles, pagans, and whatnot is much, much earlier than all this.

Re:why May 1 as the 'traditional' day of protest?

[sita]

Of course, the significance of May 1st, itself, with Maypoles, pagans, and whatnot is much, much earlier than all this.

Actually no. Maypoles are later than this. Maypoles belong on Midsummer's eve.

Re:why May 1 as the 'traditional' day of protest?

[Anonymous Coward]

Humor is not your forte.

abolition of laws

[beckerie]

The abolition of intellectual property laws would be a violation of legal rights in itself. IP laws exist for a reason - to ensure that people are protected when it comes to their intangible property.

Whilst they are not as comprehensive as physical property laws and they have more limitations, without them it would just be anarchy under administrative law and breach the international community's understanding of natural justice.

Re:abolition of laws

[mc6809e]

Sorry, but here, "you made it, I want it" will always trump the principle that people ought to be compensated for their creative works.

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

What side of the copyright (please avoid using the nebulous term "intellectual property" as it lumps very different ideas together such as patents and trademarks) debate you stand is completely determined by some basic assumptions.

1.) That information is "property" and can be owned.
2.) That unrestricted copying of said information is bad for society overall.

Would it be bad for society? Maybe the question should be, is the current situation good for society? I believe it isn't. Copyright was originally intended (in the US anyway) to be a means to encourage creativity for the public's sake, not simply to make publishers rich. It seems to be doing more of the latter these days.

Ask yourself, in a world without copyrights, would there still be artists, programmers, and musicians? I think the answer is a definitive "yes" and furthermore I think it would be a better environment overall for fostering creativity. The question of economics is the only serious issue here, and could easily be addressed in my opinion, but I won't get into that now.

Re:abolition of laws

[Kiryat Malachi]

Intellectual property laws existence is a violation of natural economic law itself. This law declares that when supply is infinitely greater than demand, and marginal cost per item is near-zero, the cost per item should be driven to near-zero as well.

Sound familiar?

There is a serious issue with IP law in the digital age; it's designed to prevent and deal with a whole different class of issues, ones that barely seem relevant when I can copy the entire Library of Congress's contents in a day or two. IP law is an attempt to impose an artificial scarcity on a commodity that not only doesn't need to be scarce, but by its very nature is easier to assume common.

Do you want *proof* that IP laws are quite probably unnecessary?

Look at Linux. Who would ever write a huge undertaking like an operating system only to give it away for free; to more or less mandate that it must be given away for no more than the cost of distribution? Apparently, lots of people. I know, from several years of working in the radio and music industries, more than a few musicians who could give a shit about their music being copied; as long as people are listening to it, they're happy.

As bandwidth becomes larger and cheaper, storage becomes larger and cheaper, etc, etc, we have to find a *better* way to encourage creation *and* consumption. Eventually, we'll have to do it for real objects, if we ever figure out how to do assemblers. But we need to acknowledge that our IP laws are broken in the modern era, and rather than trying to nudge and tweak and suspender up their sagging morass, we need to figure out a sensible approach.

Who cares about what worked for printing presses? Let's figure out what works for GB/s pipes and TB of disk.

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Certainly people are entitled to be rewarded if they create something socially useful, but many people believe turning that obligation into a requirement and creating artifical barriers with things such as "copyright" destroys the basis for deserving a reward in the first place.

There are many religious charities in the US that do a great deal of socially useful work, do you think you should be forced to "compensate" them for it?

Re:abolition of laws

[velo_mike]

The abolition of intellectual property laws would be a violation of legal rights in itself. IP laws exist for a reason - to ensure that people are protected when it comes to their intangible property.

IMHO (also, IANAL), that's not necessarily true. In the absence of IP laws, everything could be distributed (whether sold, rented, or viewed) under contracts. Want to buy that latest Robbie Williams CD or Tom Clancy's latest read? Sure, just sign this here contract that you won't copy or redistribute it. See a movie in the theatre or rent a dvd for home? Sign here. It could become cumbersome beyond belief, and may preclude kids from buying things (IIRC minors can not enter into binding contracts without their guardians' sign off). Enforcement would leave the criminal realm and become just like any other contract, prove damages and collect. Best of all for the FSF zealots, if you want to distribute something freely or restrict it in any way, either don't write a contract or specify it.

OTOH, I think the mariage laws could be replaced with the same system ending the gay marriage debate, maybe I'm just a crackpot...

Re:abolition of laws

[mabinogi]

Linux is a bad example...the GPL exists and works BECAUSE of IP Law, the license gets it's strength from the fact that the only leagal way to copy or derive from a GPL'd work is by accepting the license.

If it were not for copyright law, you could just ignore the license and take the code anyway.

Now for the musician point of view, whilst those musician friends of yours might be happy having people listen to their music, whether they payed for it or not, how would they feel if the next mass produced plastic pop star made some record company millions by singing one of their songs without permission, accreditation or compensation?

IP and copyright are about more than some 15 year old kid downloading songs with Kazaa.

I can accept that there are problems with some aspects of current law (duration being the bigest one), but the original intent of the laws are sound. If an artist or coder wants to give away their work they can. Those that don't want to, shouldn't have to.

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Property rights are just a rationing system for 'stuff' of which there is a limited supply. This doesn't apply to information as it can be copied ad infinitum. If you don't want to create anything because you're not compensated then don't bother, if it's worth doing then someone else will.

Also the sentence

The abolition of intellectual property laws would be a violation of legal rights in itself.

makes no sense.

Re:abolition of laws

[sir_cello]

> Look at Linux. Who would ever write a huge undertaking like an operating system only to give it away for free;

Umm, all the people that are confident that their efforts are _protected_ by copyright (via. the GPL) from being secretly used and leveraged for commercial purposes. Just look at the recent Germany case regarding injunction to enforce GPL.

> I know, from several years of working in the radio and music industries, more than a few musicians who could give a shit about their music being copied; as long as people are listening to it, they're happy.

No thanks. If my music were really good, I'd prefer some nice income to buy a large house, provide for my children, continue my creatively unhindered by the need to earn money, and other things. What's the name of these musicians, I think I'll pirate their works.

> But we need to acknowledge that our IP laws are broken in the modern era, and rather than trying to nudge and tweak and suspender up their sagging morass, we need to figure out a sensible approach.

Wow, you must be the first person to have thought of this.

Perhaps people should read the submissions to the UK Patent Office consultation regarding patentability of software. One of the key submissions states that (I paraphrase) "it is observed that there are multiple methods used in the EU for the development of software, including open source and commercial models, all of which seem to work, and at present there seems no specific reason to favour one over the other".

Re:abolition of laws

[Sunnan]

The GPL doesn't depend on any law that prohibits duplication. The only thing that GPL does compared to no IP laws at all is that it helps keep the source code available. Even then, without the IP laws, reverse-engineering and decompiling would be legal. That's not allowed now with non-free versions of say BSD, X11 and Apache, but those free projects still seem to be pretty popular. (They sort of emulate how a world without IP laws would work.)

Also - think outside the box - what about a law that's allows copying but mandates source availability? Sort of a "consumer's right" IP law. (I'm not necessarily advocating that, but I want people to see that there are multiple solutions here, and that the GPL does not depend on copying restrictions.)

how would they feel if the next mass produced plastic pop star made some record company millions by singing one of their songs without permission, accreditation or compensation?

Oh, so you're saying that without IP laws, musicians and record companies can still make millions? If that were true, some would considere that great news.

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

"intangible property"? Rights and property are two seperate concepts, that some have attempted to blur the distinction to make a buck is unfortunate but avoidable.

--
The basic tool for the manipulation of reality is the manipulation of words. If you can control the meaning of words, you can control the people who must use the words. - Phillip K Dick

"intellectual property" - WIPO

Re:abolition of laws

[asbestos_tophat]

Rant Flag Enable....

The IP laws give two things to society:

1.) Patents provide disclosure of Ideas for general interpretation and improvement. 93% of all filed patents are improvements on old ideas. Your car would get very bad gas mileages indeed if companies spent their time keeping technological advances secret.

2.) The laws theoretically provide protection of a developers' hard work for 10 years. This allows individuals and companies to do more research and development with the capital generated. Note too that communism did not work =oP, and to devalue the creative members of society only squelches the opportunities possible. Greed is an awful thing, but to trade other peoples hard work for "free" items is a form of counterfeit morality. Would the hypocrisy also lead to homemade money, and trust every member of society to only print what he or she earned? I don't think so.

Not also that international treaty could ban trade with such a country... Who in their right mind would export a product to a known counterfeiter.

Got an Idea?

http://www.wipo.org/

http://www.wipo.int/

Rant Flag Cleared... ;o)

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

There are no laws saying that you can't abolish some IP laws (I'm not saying it would be good or bad - but there's no laws saying what you think they're saying).

Intellectual property is a vague all encompassing term -- it's about copyright and patents. Copyright is a great thing that everyone appreciates, but these days patents are more questionnable.

Re:abolition of laws

[Kiryat Malachi]

Fine. Look at the BSDs. They seem to do quite alright, for the most part, and their works are NOT protected by copyright from being leveraged for commercial purposes. People who do Linux work, for the most part, are doing it because they like doing it and because they like the thought that people will benefit from it. I suspect that most of them, were IP law to be suddenly abolished, could give a shit. Why? Because suddenly, while their code isn't protected from being used by other people, neither is anyone else's. Effectively, ALL code becomes instantly BSD/GPL, because there is no proprietary to copy into. Software isn't a zero-sum game, and we need to not treat it like it is.

Ectomorph. 01V. The entire We're Twins record label. Quite a few different death/metal folks. Shit, half the noise records out there are just CD-R burns or tape dubs from friend to friend to friend. Most of these people acknowledged that their audience will never make them millions (it won't, and this is true for 99.999% of all musicians - for 99.99% it won't even prevent them from needing a day job). Good music rarely makes enough money to keep the musician from needing to do other things to live. And most musicians who do make a living from it, make a living from playing live, not from their CDs.

I'm not talking about open source vs. commercial vs. quasi-open. I'm talking about the fundamentals of economics, the ridiculousness of enforcing scarcity on a resource that demands otherwise, and the need to acknowledge that.

If you don't understand, you're not thinking big enough.

Re:abolition of laws

[Kiryat Malachi]

IP and copyright are about more than some 15 year old kid downloading songs with Kazaa.

That's exactly my point. They're about promoting progress and the state of the art, the state of the culture, the state of the world. We've pretty much hit the point where IP laws do little to nothing to further any of the above.

Culture? The people making good, innovative music aren't the ones making millions. The people making millions are re-treading the same song formulas over and over again.

Technology? We've hit the point where 2-3 months after a product is released, it can be reverse-engineered down to the transistors in the IC and a 'close-enough' clone created. The only thing patents and copyright achieve is to sit as a tumor on the system, consuming the time of people who could be doing creative, useful things.

The world? Drug companies jack up their prices to "whatever we can charge", and generics are prevented from being introduced by patents. How exactly does that help anyone other than the drug company?

I'd rather see a system where anyone can copy my music, but *anyone* can copy my music. Where the economic benefit of being the first to market with a new product is that for those few months before clones are released people will buy it from you. Where software developers aren't worrying about the legal minefield of software patents and can genuinely try to write a better program than the current best.

And yes, I have published music (both self and by others), I've played shows for halfway decent money to halfway decent crowds. I have a patent to my name (and I'm less than a year out of school.) I suspect I have a pretty good idea what current IP law is like.

(A side note: my dislike of IP laws doesn't mean I feel accreditation is unnecessary. A law that requires that covers are labeled as "Cover of XXXX by XXXX" is fine by me. Hell, a law that requires "Clone of XXXX from XXXX Inc." is fine by me. As long as they have no right to deny others that use. Once it becomes public, it belongs to the public. You want to maintain control, guess what? Keep it internal; yourself and those you trust never to give it away. Nothing wrong with a secret.)

Re:abolition of laws

[LvxAstrae]

No thanks. If my music were really good, I'd prefer some nice income to buy a large house, provide for my children, continue my creatively unhindered by the need to earn money, and other things. What's the name of these musicians, I think I'll pirate their works.

But if you're depending on your music to generate the income that pays for your large house and supports your children, then your creativity isn't unhindered, is it? Granted, if it so happens that the music that you make is true to your own artistic spirit and it just happens to sell like hot cakes, this might not be a valid point, but to me it seems that it is a very rare artist indeed that makes it big by doing something real in this age of singing breast implants.

I don't know, but I think there is something fishy about there being a music industry. Music is supposed to be art, isn't it? Not a vehicle for record company executives to get rich and screw underaged pop diva hopefuls, or metal drummers to sue fans in order to finance their coke habits, or whatever. Though providing for your children if a far nobler goal, maybe this should be accomplished by a job. Let music remain an art, I say.

Re:abolition of laws

[Oligonicella]

"This law declares that..."

Actually, no. That is an example of a model for material systems. Music, art, and the written word have never been handled that way.

"Look at Linux."

Not proof, chum. Many people do charitable work. Those same people do work for money. Sometimes that work is the same kind of work.

My making free software (I do) for my personal amusement has nothing whatsoever to do with my making commercial software (I do) for my livelyhood.

"more than a few musicians who could give a shit about their music being copied"

You must know a different type of musician than I do. The ones I know want to be paid to perform and record.

"we need to figure out a sensible approach"

Suggest one that doesn't entail you getting everything you want without your extending any valuable to others effort for it.

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

Offtopic. The American Constituion is quite clear, but that is not the way IP laws are being interpreted nowadays.
The USPTO proclaims Advancing American Creativity, a distinct, and divisive subset that ignores the fact that other countries can be creative too.
IP can be good, but overwhelming opinion says something stinks bad. Rejoce, and pray that defective laws are tempered with jurisprudence, not money grubbing greed.

Re:abolition of laws

[beckerie]

Sure, I understand where you're coming from but distributing under contracts would mean that the person who is entitled to be credited for the IP would not receive that credit as a copyright or a patent does.
Also, contract law, which is designed to govern the legal obligations and promises made by citizens to each other would come in and replace IP law which doesn't really solve anything. It's a bit unrealistic that every time you want to buy a CD or a book you have to sign a contract. Generally, the public would be unwilling to commit to that.

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

The GPL is needed BECAUSE of IP law, since without it there would be no barrier to reverse engineering the suckers that don't release the code.

The GPL was made so that the exact moment it becomes unnecessary, it loses all its effects.

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

im not thinking any of those warez kids give two shits if linux is licenced or not

Re:abolition of laws

[cdrguru]

Why would there be any accrediation? If you can copy freely, then anyone can copy and reuse freely.

What you are really asking for is absolute control by the largest corporations that can be second to market - with the financial power to dwarf anyone else's distribution. Say you publish a song and ask people to pay you $1 for it. Some large corporation takes it, sells it on street corners for $0.80 because they can afford the people to stand on street corners to distribute it. Economy of scale - they make money at a lower selling price than you do and they have better/faster distribution. End of story.

OK, so people that are Internet-savvy maybe don't have to pay for anything. What about those that aren't? Geek tyranny?

The only balance for the out-distribute problem is some kind of civil right/law that prevents redistribution like that.

Re:abolition of laws

[Kiryat Malachi]

That model works for music, art, and the written word *because* of IP laws enforcement of scarcity on them.

Do you fucking understand a word I said? Lack of IP law != everyone has to work for charity. There are ways to make money in a non-IP world.

The musicians I know *like* being paid to perform and record. However, they acknowledge that they're probably never going to make it big. Of them, almost all of them have day jobs. This includes a band which gets paid quite well, has had their music licensed by major media companies for use on TV, etc, etc. And my friend, who writes most of their music? Still has a dayjob as tech support. He does the music because he likes it, not because he wants money. Of the others, some of them have given up on even trying to sell CDs. They give them away to promote their live shows. It works okay for them.

Go to http://www.stop-eject.com and download any 01V music that has tracks on the site. You want to learn about control theory? Track me down sometime. I just gave a presentation on the basics of digital communications theory. In another city. On my own dime. For other people's benefit. I have a patent; if it weren't for the fact that my contract prevented my doing anything other than immediately signing it over to my company, I would have happily allowed it to be used. That's the "extending of my valuable effort", as far as I'm concerned. I do it without thinking "Oh, people are going to suddenly wake up and realize IP is wrong-headed", I do it because its the right way to do things.

Have a less knee-jerk reaction. Get some imagination and think about other ways it could work. I'm honestly a) not bright enough and b) not awake enough, as I'm in the middle of packing to move, to think of a better approach that adjusts to universal content availability, but there are people who are.

Re:abolition of laws

[Kiryat Malachi]

Distribution of content that exists solely digitally really doesn't provide an advantage for large corporations. Furthermore, the cost they would incur in aggregation of content would pretty much offset the minimal advantage they have in that realm.

Further, let's take your example. Those people standing at the street corner? Why would they bother, when they could simply stand at the corner and sell a copy of it they made for $.60? The model you're proposing pretty much gets to ignore distribution, because anyone can create the physical medium. It rewards nothing other than the time and effort of the salesman. End of story.

People that aren't Internet-savvy are a group that is steadily lowering in number. And I suspect that were something like this to be implemented, a group that would quickly and permanently drop to nearly zero.

My point is non-physical goods work differently economically than physical goods when copying them is essentially zero-cost, which is something that has only become true in the last few years, and we should adjust to that.

Now explain to me why a lack of patent, a lack of IP in the technical realm, wouldn't be just as good as what we have now. Everyone focuses on music when that's maybe 1/100th of the importance of the other side of the coin.

Re:abolition of laws

[Kiryat Malachi]

Oh, and I'm not opposed to legal restrictions on accreditation. I have no problem with legally requiring acknowledgement, just issues with artifically restricting availability.

Re:abolition of laws

[Artifakt]

Since the 1940's most states in the USA have laws that say purchasing a theatre ticket IS a contract. You agree to not smuggle in food, but to buy from the theatre instead if you want anything. While this is by law, a contract, you never see it written down, and never sign it before it applies to you. That distortion of normal principles of law came about because of extensive lobbying by the entertainment industry sixty odd years ago. Which is worse, cumbersome contracts or hidden ones?
Wake up people, you have lost many more rights than you know, and it's getting worse. (In this case, it's not about a 'right' to smuggle in your own pepsi, it's about a right to know when you are entering into a contract.).

Re:abolition of laws

[sir_cello]

> I'm talking about the fundamentals of economics, the ridiculousness of enforcing scarcity on a resource that demands otherwise, and the need to acknowledge that.

You are confused. The fundamentals of economics are about supply, demand and scarcity: but you failed to differentiate properly between those fundamentals applied to the "expression" and the "medium".

The digital bits may be abundant, easily copied, at zero code; but the _expression_ put into those digital bits by the artists and so on isn't - it costs them time, effort and money to make their works, and so they should have the right to choose how they want to restrict the availability of the work.

Furthermore, you forgot about "choice" and "freedom", in that abolishing protection for works that artists creates is to _force_ them to place their works into the public domain. I think the world is a better place when they have the choice over how to exercise their rights in their works.

In your world, all the artists will be making tunes in the evening while serving fries during the day: never able to make money from their tunes because the rest of society forced the works to be free.

Nice one.

Re:abolition of laws

[Anonymous Coward]

I do compensate religious organizations for their work--they get a free ride on taxes.

Re:abolition of laws

[erikogre]

Linux is a bad example...the GPL exists and works BECAUSE of IP Law, the license gets it's strength from the fact that the only leagal way to copy or derive from a GPL'd work is by accepting the license.

I've seen this line multiple times here, and it's not quite right -- the GPL is a wickedly clever legal hack that protects software which is more-or-less public domain from being absorbed/assimilated by corporations like MS, who "extend and embrace" it and turn it into something over which they have exclusive control. The GPL would be unnecessary in an IP-free world.

If it were not for copyright law, you could just ignore the license and take the code anyway.

And someone else could reverse-engineer what you do with the code and make it publically-available, with no fear of legal retribution from you.

how would they feel if the next mass produced plastic pop star made some record company millions by singing one of their songs without permission, accreditation or compensation?

I'm not sure the mass-produced plastic pop star (MPPPS) could exist in an IP-less world -- but the MPPPS would be equally without recourse if the band in question turned around and released a "remix" version of his/her album.

What usually gets lost in this kind of defense of IP law is that revoking copyright law would actually level the playing field, where it's tilted right now toward those who can claim ownership (and pay for lawyers to defend their claim). Check out the other story today about the guy who posted his own Win98 patch -- MS has the resources to squash him if they wanted to, whether or not they have a valid legal claim. The threat of litigation would be enough. Abolish IP law, and you could have Win98 enthusiasts reverse-engineer the whole bloody OS and patch it reeeeeal good. In that situation, everything's up for grabs -- for everyone, not just those with lawyers on the payroll.

Re:abolition of laws

[Lifewish]

You have some good points, but I feel you're not fully exploring the world you imagine. In this world, the pop star wouldn't be able to make millions singing someone's song without permission - their album would be freely copyable too.

Having said this, I'm not sure abolition of copyright is entirely the way forward - I think supporting people who do something genuinely creative enriches us all.

However, I would say that there is evidence to show that the illegal-downloaders aren't really denting the market that much. The only people who compete on the same playing field as the original publishers of the music are the commercial pirates. My solution? Keep copyright but restrict it to commercial reproduction (if you're giving it away free then it's legal). Keep patents (and possibly even software patents) but make it illegal to submit blatantly obvious claims - if you ask for a patent on electronic shopping baskets you deserve to be litigated into the ground. Does anyone else have thoughts on the optimum balance?

Re:abolition of laws

[Kiryat Malachi]

Most of them will be doing the exact same thing they're doing now; doing whatever during the day, playing shows at night.

You act like this isn't what most musicians do already. They don't make money from selling CDs, they don't make money from selling MP3s, they make their money from people coming to see them play and from people buying swag at their shows to support them.

They write the music before anyone expressed any willingness to pay for it, for the most part, because they *like doing it*. The few people who get paid before they write a thing? I feel very, very little empathy for them; let them work for it like most musicians.

You seem to be worried about the music industry; I maintain that the system I describe would be equally good or better for the majority of musicians than the current system, and would definitely be better for the listener. The only people who lose are the music industry and the 10 or so new megastars per year, and you know what?

Screw them.

Re:abolition of laws

[Kiryat Malachi]

Nice to see someone who gets what I'm getting at.

Re:The letter “Å”

[Hannes Eriksson]

Yes the letter Å is in general pronounced like a in all, but since it was introduced by some stupid king or whatever from the southern half of Sweden to the end of names like Ume, Skellefte, Pite and Lule, nobody actually living in those cities pronounces the final addendum. This is offtopic, hooray! But on the other hand - Ume (with that silly, non-needed and by natives non-pronounced letter) is mentioned in the article, and umu.se is the University of Umeå :-)

Riiiight.

[flynns]

C'mon, how much meaner can we GET?? We post a site that's (1) about pirates, which are inherently cool, (2) got a picture of a real-life AYBABTU sign (both of these make it a primary Slashdotting candidate) (3) is ALREADY involved in protesting because they need more bandwidth-- and we post this on our front page.

It's like inviting the WHOLE frikkin' horde of Viking^H^H^H^H^H^HSlashdot barbarians to bang on their gates. In the words of a certain GalaxyQuest character: "Those poor people..."

</humor>

Swedish geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Swedish geeks look a little different, but there is no denying their geekhood.
Its comforting to know, you can go all around the world and always recognise a fellow geek.

i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[atarione]

as the Swedish prime minister,
I'd like to assure that group of (what appears to me to be less than 100?) bored swedish teens.
FREE BANDWIDTH and SOFTWARE for you all.
please take all your PC loaded with your pirate material to your local police, to recieve you offical FREE Software stamp. be quite sure to tell them that you've brought your PC LOADED with PIRATE Software.

Thank you.
(whoever the hell the prime minister of sweeden is.... actually do they have a prime minster? oh wait I'm American WHO GIVE A FUCK WHAT THEY HAVE =)

Re:The letter “Å”

[God! Awful 2]

I'm from Sweden!

Perhaps you've been pronouncing "go" wrong!

-a

and in germany

[RavidgeMole]

And in Germany it is Worker's Day: a day when all the shops are closed and no one has to work. The funny/ironic part is: (1) yesterday was a Saturday so people probabley weren't working that much anyways and (2) I saw many open shops and construction workers were continuing work on the S Ban (one of the trains in South Germany, Bavaria) tracks because it was more conveniant that way for the rest of the populace.

Re:and in germany

[Sven-Erik]

A lot of people still has to work, also here in Norway. I also needed to work yesterday, but at least I got extra pay for working on a public holiday! :-D

Death of a webserver.

[Averron]

I can hear it screaming from here.

Re:Death of a webserver.

[Killjoy_NL]

Nah, that was my girlfriend.

And she wasn't dying ;)

Re:The letter “Å”

[Borg453b]

Dont know why they modded you down.. you're telling the truth.

AYBABTU

[God! Awful 2]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks that AYBABTU is getting a little old (or who can't figure out what made it so damned funny in the first place).

At any rate, shouldn't they be using something a little more piratey, such as "all your doubloon are belong to us?"

-a

Re:AYBABTU

[danielsfca2]

> Okay, am I the only one who thinks that AYBABTU is getting a little old (or who can't figure out what made it so damned funny in the first place).

Yes.

Oh, and all your base are belong to us.
For great justice.

I actually think we should spark a big AYB resurgence...It's been pretty much off the radar for about 4 years now.

Re:AYBABTU

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say?

Re:AYBABTU

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually think we should spark a big AYB resurgence...It's been pretty much off the radar for about 4 years now.

hell ya! that'd be the set up us bomb! those who say otherwise have no chance to survive

Re:AYBABTU

[flynns]

-- make your time!

This is a joke

[PimpbotChris]

In so many countries there are people who cant access certain content (especially political) even if they are willing to pay for it and yet these idiots think that they have some god given right to streaming porn and warez, come on!

Re:This is a joke

[t_allardyce]

Yes i know, but don't worry, soon we will come to your aid. We will save America from censorship!

Im sure they had other countries in mind, but you gotta start with your country first - its like they say on planes: please fit your own mask before helping others.

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[NickeB]

To answer your question, the head of the state is "Göran Persson", a fool when it comes to foreign politics.

Stupid question

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe someone can explain this to me, cause I just have no clue....

How much does bandwidth itself cost? I mean, once you lay the line, aren't your costs pretty much fixed, regardless of how much bandwidth you use?

On a pipe, you pay for:
Router, or other form of access --> one time cost
The line itself --> one time cost
Person/people to maintain it --> ongoing fixed cost
Internal switches --> one time cost
Servers --> one time cost, till they go down. Going down is going to happen regardless of bandwidth useage though.
Regular maintenance --> ongoing fixed cost. A fiber line is a fiber line. Granted, the better the equipment, the more it will cost, but still.

What am I missing? How is using more bandwidth more expensive? How are the ongoing monthly charges different for a T1 versus a T3? What costs are different? Aside from the "You want it more, so we're going to charge more" attitude ISP's take.

I'm only posting this as an AC b/c I'm sure I'll get flamed for being an idiot.

Re:Stupid question

[nacturation]

I'm just pulling this out of my ass, but anyway... should be reasonably accurate.

The cost of everything you mentioned is amortized. Optic cable costs $X/meter to lay, especially if roads need to be dug up, or if it needs to be laid across the Atlantic or Pacific Ocean for example. Charging the first guy the billions of dollars it really cost so that everyone else can have it for the cost of ongoing maintenance isn't going to work very well. :) So the install cost, maintenance costs, repair costs, upgrade costs, etc. are all factored into the cost of bandwidth.

This is exactly how it works for long distance phone calls. If the phone company only charged you ten cents per kilowatt hour of electricity your call used up, they would be losing money because lines go down, service to remote parts of the country is effectively subsidized by the high density areas, new lines to new communities are constantly being installed, etc.

So in the case of bandwidth, factor in all of these things and then figure out how much you have to charge to pay for it all, have a bit left over in reserve, pay for all the related personnel (accounting, human resources, marketing...), have some for R&D, and don't forget to make a profit. Then divide that total $X figure by the total bandwidth the lines can carry. That gives you a cost per megabit which you can then sell to ISPs.

Now the ISP knows that typical websites don't use a steady flow of traffic, so charging them by average sustained transfer likely won't make a whole lot of sense. It's easier to charge per GB of traffic. So the ISP takes their cost per megabit and figures out how much traffic they're able to serve up from that connection. A 1 Mbps connection will serve up 321 GB per month (thanks Google!), so the ISP adds up the cost of the connection with their other associated costs and arrives at a cost per GB, which you pay.

Re:Stupid question

[golgotha007]

I mean, once you lay the line, aren't your costs pretty much fixed, regardless of how much bandwidth you use?

in America, it appears that costs are pretty much fixed, but in Russia and eastern Europe, there are additional charges.

in Saint Petersburg, i set up apartment building networks (often stringing ethernet from building to building, across streets and everything else).

i typically will run my own fiber from various POP's throughout the city. my cost for bandwidth depends on my usage: in most cases, each megabyte will cost me about 2 cents. usually, down traffic is charged while up isn't.

i wrote a program that acts as a firewall and counts every byte of traffic from each customer. their plans usually are $25 a month and that includes 600MB. after 600, i charge them at 6 cents per MB.

i would love to offer unmetered access to my customers (and myself), but most of the physical wire running into Russia is owned by monopolistic big wigs that control everything (and i'm sure they're making a killing).

i always wonder what would happen if i had enough investment money to run my own fiber from Helsinki and then offer unlimited traffic...

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[atarione]

see this is why i luv teh slashdot I learn something new everyday. Thank you sir, =)

Some facts about the Swedes

[Nightreaver]

Well I'm a Dane (and therefore I'm obligated to hate the Swedes :)) and I'd say that in Sweeden the are much better off than us Danes. Bandwidth in Denmark costs about 400DKK ~ $60 a month for a 2048/256 ADSL line, where in Sweden the get 10/10 Mbit line capacity for 1/4 of the Danish 2 Mbit ADSL. 100 Mbit bandwidth is also quite common over there for end-users

BTW, if anybody has tried Direct Connect P2P program they'll quickly find out that the 7151.97 TB online are almost hosted alone by Swedes...

Re:Some facts about the Swedes

[nordicfrost]

I'd take 400 DKK for 2048/256 any day!

I live in Norway, and pay 55 USD for 512/128 HALF duplex! If I want the speeds you are talking about, I'd have to pay 80 USD, plus 10 USD (to the phone monopoly, since they are private and don't care if the government hates this "line lease" surcharge), and another 14 USD because I don't want the two-year tie-in programme.

Re:Some facts about the Swedes

[rozz]

quote from original post

"Today, the Swedish site Piratbyrån organised demonstrations in several Swedish towns, demanding more bandwith"

adapted quote :

" in Sweden they get 10/10 Mbit line capacity for 15$/month"

anyone else who sees a problem here? .. i don't understand why did they stop just short of asking for subventioned Porsche's from the government ?!

Re:Some facts about the Swedes

[Nightreaver]

Forgive me for not backing up my claim. Here's a link to one of the Swedish ISP's, providing 100 Mbit internet for 895 SEK ~ 100 euro ~ 120 USD a month, which I would say is a quite alright price.

I don't like this group...

[venomix]

but this sign brings back some sweet memories =)

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

I can see Ashcroft making the call now

[mikehunt]

After the recent "Operation Fastlink", which only resulted in one arrest here in Sweden, I think there might be some more coming.

The people cannot be taken seriously. As one other poster noticed, all the people taking part are so young that they have most likely not left college yet. Wonder how they will earn money when all is for the taking as they want?

Re:I can see Ashcroft making the call now

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, what do we do when 20% can support 80%? It's a hard question.

Turn communistic? Well, might be a solution.

Do as we always have? Well, guess what, the world is changing. Our society simply can't handle paradise. That's why ppl think we need copyright.

Re:The letter “Å”

[gantrep]

Then why is the scientific measurement abbreviated with that letter pronounced "Angstrom" like the A in "hang?"

Mirryarrr

[jackalski]

http://tinyurl.com/2sqaj

fetched, (yaaa)rarred, served. enjoy :>

I'm looking at those pictures

[Walkiry]

And I'm thinking they better finish the demonstration before 9 pm and wash their hands afterwards or they'll get into trouble...

More bandwidth??

[cibus]

My impression is that everyone living in one of the major cities in Sweden can have 10Mbit for just a few SEK montly...
It's not coincidence that 50%+ of all DC servers are(atleast was) located in Sweden...

...yeah I'm just another jealous norwegian :-P

Re:More bandwidth??

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, with BBB (brodband corporation) it is 315 SKR (also known as SEK) wich is something like 45 us$. I dont think that is very cheap, but it depends on what you compare to.For 800 skr (around 115 us$) you can also get 100 mbits/s from the same company.

Re:More bandwidth??

[cibus]

For 400NOK(about 450SEK) you'll be able to get 1Mbit (yes - thats ONE) in norway...

thats what I campare it to.

Re:More bandwidth??

[Hannes Eriksson]

...and I thought 157 SEK/month (US$20) was much for 10 Mbit...

Mirror , just in case

[pigscanfly.ca]

Hi their, just in case things go sidewise as it were I have put up a mirror.
The mirror of http://www.piratbyran.org/ is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www.piratbyran. org/
The mirror of http://www.piratbyran.org/1majbilder/umea/DSCF0020 .jpg is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www.piratbyran. org/1majbilder/umea/DSCF0020.jpg
The mirror of http://www.piratbyran.org/1majbilder/ is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www.piratbyran. org/1majbilder/
The mirror of http://www.piratbyran.org/1majbilder/sthlm/DSCF002 3.JPG is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www.piratbyran. org/1majbilder/sthlm/DSCF0023.JPG
The mirror of http://www4.tomshardware.com/column/20040430/index .html is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www4.tomshardwa re.com/column/20040430/index.html
The mirror of http://www.dailywireless.com/modules.php?name=News &file=article&sid=239 is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www.dailywirele ss.com/modules.php%3fname=News&amp%3bfile=article& amp%3bsid=239
The mirror of http://www.kismetwireless.net/ is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www.kismetwirel ess.net/
The mirror of http://www.stumbler.net/ is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www.stumbler.ne t/
The mirror of http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20040430/images /warfly.avi is at http://mirrorit.demonmoo.com/r_154/www.tomshardwar e.com/column/20040430/images/warfly.avi

Re:Mirror , just in case

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for the mirrors, we appreciate it! /dino@piratbyrån

Re:Mirror , just in case

[Anonymous Coward]

OK people, that's a lotta servers... You better be clicking your hearts out over there. I wanna see those servers slashdotted before lunchtime!

Re:Mirror , just in case

[kunudo]

Looks like you weren't too lucky there, your mirror is down :P

Re:Mirror , just in case

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn... Well, i guess our server is a steaming puddle of metal and plastic right now...

Re:Mirror , just in case

[eggmit]

As of 6:30 Pacific time, the original server appears to be faring better than the mirror. :)

Re:Mirror , just in case

[IshanCaspian]

Hahaha, better get a mirror for that mirror!

Re:Mirror , just in case

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahaha, better get a mirror for that mirror!

Upon reflection, it seems the mirroring is not effective.

Vikings

[Ceriel Nosforit]

They called themselves Vikings, predated, and were a lot better at it than pirates.

Aaah, it's good the young ones keep up the traditions. 1st of May is even today the day to drink copious amounts of mead.

Re:Vikings

[Anonymous Coward]

Ah, whatever. The Swedes went eastwards into Russia and didn't do much of activities on the high seas. The Danes had territory on both sides of the Sound into Bothnia and were mostly into taxation, with some noteworthy exceptions. The Norwegians established kingdoms in the Mediterranean, served as bodygards for the Emperor of Constantinople, founded Dublin, established the Duchy of Normandy (that one's under dispute. The guy may have been Danish), settled the islands north of Great Britain, as well as the Faroe islands, Iceland, southern Greenland (+ a minor colony on Newfoundland), fought amongst themselves over England several times, raided villages far into France...until shortly after Christianity came to Norway. Pirates worth their salt.

Re:The letter “Å”

[Anonymous Coward]

It's pronounced "Ångström", after the inventer.

You didn't think "smorgasbord" was the original
spelling either, did you ? (it is smörgåsbord)

Stupid ASCII.

Re:The letter “Å”

[IWannaBeAnAC]

Hmm, "Å" is equivalent to "aa", and in the place name Faarbog at least (where I have visited several times) the pronounciation is an 'o' sound, like in "ogg".

Re:The letter “Å”

[matoh]

Becaused it is mispronounced?

In Swedish "Ång" in "Ångström" is pronounced as "ong" in "long" (and the "ö" like "i" in "bird").

Re:The letter “Å”

[Anonymous Coward]

The Å in Ångström is pronounced similar to the oa in boat or I guess the a in all. The a in hang sounds like the swedish letter ä for example in "ät" (=eat). Pronouncing the å in Ångström as the a in hang would be incorrect.

Just for reference, the ö in Ångström is pronounced similar to the i in bird, if you say it in a thick american accent :)

Only in sweden (and maybe a couple others)

[Datasage]

Can you actually attempt to demand abolishment of IP rights. Im not sure wether to be horrified or to commend them. Well how about I commned them for there attempt but would be horrified if they succeed.

If you try this in the US, you would have RI/MP AA hitman after you. Im sorry i mean FBI agents working under a hidden clasue of the DMCA that prevents any attempt to undermine copyright.

Satire aside, if they do succeed, they will probably manage to create an IP anarchy. Content providers outside of Sweden would do what they could to prevent content from going into sweden. THose content providers in sweden that dont support this anarchist dream, would probably leave. So what you get in the end, is a place where content is free to all, but there is no content being created. Well except for a few anarchists.

That said, i dont support a place with no ip laws. But i also dont support the path the US has been taking recetnly. IP holders posses alot more power than IP consumers. We need to find a point of balance. IP holders need to allow market forces to shape the the market. Not make thier consumers criminals.

We really need to do a 180 as far as ip law is concerned. Copyright law needs to be reaxamed and balanced in favor of both interests. I suppose this is not going to happen when most people dont know the diffrence. We can vote with our dollars, but most of the dollars are still going the wrong way out of ignorance.

Done ranting... or whatever...

Re:Only in sweden (and maybe a couple others)

[NickeB]

To put it simple; Noone here takes em seriously and neither should you.

Re:Only in sweden (and maybe a couple others)

[Aim Here]

"So what you get in the end, is a place where content is free to all, but there is no content being created." That's right. The complete lack of freely available software out there today just shows how necessary it is to have these IP laws in place. It's human nature. People just simply won't make software, or music or films or perform any kind of artistic or creative endeavour, unless they've been co-erced and cajoled into it through the operations of the capitalist system. Don't those anarchists understand, if it wasn't for EMI's financing of Johann Sebastian Bach, we'd have no such thing as music at all today? How on earth could SpaceWar ever have been invented, if it wasn't for Electronic Arts working those poor MIT hackers to death with the promise of untold riches at the end of it all? The mind boggles.

Re:Only in sweden (and maybe a couple others)

[blincoln]

The complete lack of freely available software out there today just shows how necessary it is to have these IP laws in place.

How many free software authors manage to support themselves on donations or support fees versus having a day job (where they probably code software for a commercial company)?

People just simply won't make software, or music or films or perform any kind of artistic or creative endeavour, unless they've been co-erced and cajoled into it through the operations of the capitalist system.

Yes, I'm sure David Fincher or Peter Jackson would have plenty of time to make films if they had to spend 8 hours a day working at the grocery store or driving a bus.

*Every* musician I know struggles with having to spend time on work as opposed to writing music.

Don't those anarchists understand, if it wasn't for EMI's financing of Johann Sebastian Bach, we'd have no such thing as music at all today?

Bach was financed by royalty and the church. The money to finance his lifestyle and allow him to compose didn't materialize out of thin air or come from donation buckets.

How on earth could SpaceWar ever have been invented, if it wasn't for Electronic Arts working those poor MIT hackers to death with the promise of untold riches at the end of it all?

Yes, because a game like Space War, which incorporates simple physics, a 2D playfield, and monochrome vector graphics is *so* comparable to a modern 3D title.

In fact, I'm sure GTA3 or Morrowind could easily have been coded in the spare time of some teenage hackers and given away for free.

Re:Only in sweden (and maybe a couple others)

[Aim Here]

"How many free software authors manage to support themselves on donations or support fees versus having a day job (where they probably code software for a commercial company)?"

And so? Either way, that software gets made in their free time, without the restrictions of copyright and license fees.

"The money to finance his lifestyle and allow him to compose didn't materialize out of thin air or come from donation buckets."

Bad choice, I know. I should have rooted around for a great composer who spent his life starving in a garret. But there's millions of unemployed musicians with day jobs kicking around. There's buskers in the streets. There's guys who play in bars. Are you seriously trying to say that there'd be no music if there was no copyright law?

"In fact, I'm sure GTA3 or Morrowind could easily have been coded in the spare time of some teenage hackers and given away for free."

Well fine. So we do without GTA3 or Morrowind or the Lord of the Rings film. We won't have huge hundred-million-dollar budget movies. We won't have massive stadium-rock extravaganzas. Bye bye U2. Bye Bye Francis Ford Coppola. That doesn't mean we won't have software, or music, or films, far from it - just not the massive capital-intensive spectaculars that us fat complacent westerners been fed by Hollywood and Electronic Arts and the RIAA*. Isn't that, really, a small price to pay for a world in which all information (some of the most important products of our economy) is free, and where no-one is excluded from them on the basis of poverty?

*Well maybe not. Linux is probably the largest computer software project that has ever existed, and there's no proprietary software manufacturer out there that could dream of making a piece of software that does half of the things that comes bundled with every linux distro. Hell in some ways, humble old nethack kicks the pants out of every commercial rpg out there, or at least it did last time I bought a commercial role-playing game.

Re:The letter “Å”

[Hannes Eriksson]

It isn't (in Sweden atleast). It is pronounced (and spelled) "Ångström", with the penultimate letter pronounced in the same way as the u in "further". It's the name of a swedish inventor.
On the same topic: Nobel (them prices, you know?) was a swedish inventor. His name is pronounced like "no bell", but with the o pronounced as the u in "bull".
Well, this holds true for most parts of Sweden. There are of course some dialects with really, really, Really weird pronounciation. Especially when it comes to consonants.

Let me be the first to say...

[shenanigans]

Slashdotted!

antiantipiratbyran.org

[Anonymous Coward]

These guys are more the antiantipiratbyran.org,
just abbreviated with some basic boolean logic.

The first site is www.antipiratbyran.com,
and it is the local Swedish branch of the BSA "police".
(along with a few movie/music/etc representatives)

Re:antiantipiratbyran.org

[Anonymous Coward]

AntiPiratbyrån is the nemesis.

What insight.

[King_of_Prussia]

Do you think that's why they call it slashdotting?

Re:The letter

[lastninja]

Well if you want to impress a Swede, pronounce it as Ångstöm. Here is a link with some info on the Ångstöms.

And in New Zealand,

[King_of_Prussia]

all the stoners use the occaison for a "protest" where they all get high in a park! Yay!

Re:And in New Zealand,

[Sven-Erik]

What's the difference from every other day of the year? ;-)

Re:first

[Anonymous Coward]

And now you've got goatse in j00r face!

Better AYBABTU picture

[kasperd]

Congratulations to whoever made the AYBABTU sign.

Anyone else noticed, that at first the article linked to a picture which wasn't very good. But a short while after the article came on slashdot they swapped around two of the pictures on the server, such that now the link point to a better picture of their sign. DSCF0023.JPG DSCF0033.JPG

Re:Better AYBABTU picture

[Anonymous Coward]

Creds to you for noticing that.

You don't seem to understand

[Sycraft-fu]

This is Sweden here we are talking about, not the United States. Now I know you may find it hard to believe, but there are other kinds of free governments than the one we enjoy here. We are a fairly private sector, pay-for-it-yourself kind of country. That's fine, but Sweden is NOT. They are far more socialist than the US. This means that they pay a LOT more taxes. Like around 65% income tax in the top brackets, not to mention other taxes.

Well, the flipside of the higher taxes is they expect more services. A free government is supposed to be one that serves its people. The reason that they take money from the people is to give them services that they all need and want such as transportation, public safety, health care and so on.

So, if people pay taxes to the government with the understanding they will be used to build broadband infastructure, it is not unreasonable to demand that they actually recieve the broadband as a result.

Just because we here in the US think that broadband ought to be in the hands of private (well, sort of private) corperations does not mean that the rest of the free world shares those views. What's more, if the US government levied a tax to provide unviersal boradband availability, as they levy a tax to provide universal phone availability, I would expect to recieve broadband as a result, as I expect to recieve phone service.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[d_strand]

I agree that with higher tax pressure you expect more service from the government (and that 65% figure, while true, is a bit extreme and only applies to the very highest income brackets.. most people pay 30-35% income tax in sweden).

BUT.

We do not have a specific "broadband tax" in sweden, which means that the first things you should make sure is properly funded by the government should be important things like schools and healthcare (which arent properly funded). Not silly things like fiberlinks to every house. And thankyou for clearing up who the hell these people where when I saw them yesterday. I couldnt hear what the hell the nerd was mumbling into his microphone (I live in the town on the picture that is "just great"... yay Umeå!).

Re:You don't seem to understand

[love2hateMS]

For all you Americans who make the mistake of glorifying the socialist countries in Europe, think again. Please stop portraying socialism as some kind of utopian wonderland.

Of course each country is somewhat different, but in general, the high taxes and expensive social programs have left Europe's economy in dire straits. The Euro is turning into a disaster. The EC is a failure and is descending into bickering and disagreement. Many of these socialist countries can no longer afford the huge government programs they have built, and they have stifled business to the point where their own business are fleeing as fast as possible.

In the U.S. we are worried about outsourcing, yet the fact is we are importing more (and higher-paying) jobs than we are exporting. In Europe, this is not the case. Their business is going out of the country at a fast-increasing rate. I'm sure someone from some specific European country will contradict this, but in GENERAL there are huge problems in Europe right now. The number of workers is falling rapidly, and is supporting a fast increasing dependent-class of entitlement recipients (freeloaders we call them in the U.S.)

Remember, nationalizing companies results in inefficiency and incompetence. With no competition and profit incentive, quality goes down the tubes.

Yes I am an American who actually reads European news sources.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[hanssprudel]

As a European just let me say: You could not be more right.

The moocher and freeloader cleptocracies are bleeding Europe dry, all the more so for countries (like Sweden) where it is the most prevalent. Check out the direction of Sweden in every indicator of national wealth during the last thirty years. Now have a look at indicators of crime rate (long overtaken the US), health, employment, and the number of large Swedish companies that were founded in the last 50 years (try none!).

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Now imagine my dissapointment:

I live in a Central European country, one of the former "eastern block". We have just a few (15) years ago started the reforms from a socialist country to a modern democracy. Now we have flat rate 19% income tax and the coutry is moving toward a US-type economy (and away from the Swedish or German welfare state).

Since yesterday, we are in the EU. This is somehow great, since we are now perceived as a stabilised country, save to do bussiness in. What is less great is that the EU members are worried about our low taxes, driving their bussinesses from eg. Germany to come here (granted, they are also driven here by lower wages, but even if the wages were equal, they would still flee here to exploit our low taxes). So the EU has forced us to increase taxes on alcohol and tobacco, and imposed a limit on the lowest percentage for VAT. They (namely Germany and I believe Denmark, 14 days ago) have also threatened us (there is no other word) that they could cut the finances they pay us if we insist on our low income taxes. That way, we would get less money from the EU than we give EU, thus in fact financing other, more economically powerfull, countries.

What more, the EU is paying many times (five times or so) more subsidies to our farmers then they had before, which sounds great until you realize the whole farmer subsidy system is bad and that it is in fact you who is paying it through our state's EU membership fees. It is now perhaps more profitable to be a farmer then anything else, even if you don't actually grow anything. And those subsidies are now set to only 55% of those in the EU, they will grow gradually and the farmers will get more money for nothing then anyone else in this state for solid work.

We were on a way to a great democratic and capitalist state, with relatively low taxes and high economic freedom. Now we are still on the way, but are slowed down by the huge burden of socialist EU regulations. EU does not want us to be non-socialist, since we would (in a quite few years of course) be able to successfully compete with their ineffective welfare states.

Believe me. I have lived in a socialist state once. We all here have been. And we now know it's not the way to go.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Anonymous Coward]

True.. Not that the US economy is the very best either. Both EU and US will have huge problem within the next 20 years due to a fast aging population. All these elderly people will need 1) care and 2) pensions. In neither EU nor US are there enough working people to support the elderly in the future...

Re:You don't seem to understand

[aliquis]

Yeah, atleast 30% income tax, many pays 50% above a certain amount.
However we shouldn't forget the "taxes" the companies pays before the money reaches the employee, and the "taxes" you pay in the store when you buy something (25% vat).
An intresting thing is that then the european central bank made a research about taxes and services in different european countries they came to the conclusion that if we in Sweden was as efficient as the people/government in Luxenburg we would make the same amount of services with 1/3 of the money.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Sycraft-fu]

I'm not portraying it as a utopia, you are putting words in my mouth. I am telling people how it is over there. It IS a socialism (in some countries at any rate). A large part of what that means is that you give the government more money and for that money you get more service. I am not saying this is a good or bar thing, simple the way it is.

The parent poster seemed to have trouble with the concept. This often is a result of not understanding the difference between the American system and the system in many European countries.

So chill, and read more carefully before you respond. Because I know very basic facts about Europe doesn't mean I advocate the way they do things.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[hankwang]

that 65% figure, while true, is a bit extreme and only applies to the very highest income brackets.. most people pay 30-35% income tax in sweden

Swedish taxes are actually much higher than that, it's just that the employer pays most of it behind the scenes. To give someone a gross income of x (0.65x after taxes), the employer has to spend about 1.40x. The extra 0.4x is not called "income tax", but "lånekostnadspålägg" or something like that.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been hearing this kind of bullshit for the past 30 years, yet in the meantime Europe keeps getting richer and poverty keeps steadily increasing in the US.

Europe has lower crime, longer lifespans, lower infant mortality, you name it they've got it. Go back to reading "USA Today" and keep dreaming that you live in utopia.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Iamthefallen]

To nitpick: It's not "welfare state", it's "well fare state". There is a difference.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Snaller]

most people pay 30-35% income tax in sweden

Really?!! Sure about that? That is surprising, since in neighboring Denmark, most people do not pay below 50% in taxes (only young people and cheaters)

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Seehund]

As others have pointed out, only counting the one tax that's listed as "income tax" on your montly salary specification isn't very useful.

All in all, 50-70% of most Swedes' wages are lost to various taxes. This figure is consistent with the percentage of our GNP that's constituted by taxes.

Think of it this way: If you work 5 days a week, then on Monday, Tuesday, and most of Wednesday you work only to pay taxes.

As the broadband example (among just about every other thing in this country that's funded by taxes) shows, there's no reason to believe that bureaucrats (who might even have finished highschool, if we're lucky) for some inexplicable reason would be more capable of handling YOUR money to do something, than you yourself or commercial interests would.

But hey, the same sort of useful idiots who have helped the One Party State persist here for 70 years almost uninterrupted get to walk the streets with red flags once a year, protesting against themselves and the "incompetentocracy" that they insist on electing every 4 years. Teh Swedish Model r0xx0rz!!!11 :P

School and healthcare aren't properly funded? They're OVERFUNDED, at least healthcare and political schooling. With the funding/taxes we pay, we should have the best healthcare in the world, but instead patients rot away in corridors, old people get one cooked meal a day and have to go to bed at 3 pm because there's no staff, and physicians and nurses move abroad where they get the chance to make more money than a car mechanic. In education, things like political indoctrination and "native language education" to immigrants take precendence over teaching fundamentals like how to read and write. The problem is administration, and the total "politisation" of administration at every level from the lowest to the highest in both healthcare as well as the rest of our country. Now this is too deeply rooted to change, even if a non-socialist government would be elected for two consecutive terms (yeah, right).

We're still a Soviet republic, even more so than the real former Soviet republics. In 10 years we'll be crossing the Baltic to look for menial jobs and sell homemade "Absolut" in Riga.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Seehund]

Welcome to the EU!

I hope you'll make more of it than Sweden has, and I want you to know that not all Swedes endorse our government's attempts to deny you the rights that every other EU citizen has.

It also goes to show that our "let 20% of the population support the remaining 80%" socialist policy doesn't work if we are to be considered full members of the EU. Maybe the plan is to adapt the EU to socialism, and in some aspects it's already happened, as you indicate.

Heck, one of these days Sweden might even advance to the level where former Soviet republics are today, and gladly welcome the Euro currency cooperation and join the NATO! ;)

Re:You don't seem to understand

[sita]

They [Sweden] are far more socialist than the US. This means that they pay a LOT more taxes. Like around 65% income tax in the top brackets, not to mention other taxes.

No, we are not more socialist than the US. Sweden is a lot less regulated than you might think. And the US is a lot more regulated than you might think. Think California. Think electric power. That's socialism for you!

And the income tax is not around 65% in the top bracket, it is more 55-60, but then most of your income is usually in a lower bracket where you pay 30-35%, so in the end maybe your income tax lands at 40-45%. All in all, Swedish taxes are at about 55% of GNP, which is, of course, very high, but not ridiculously extreme.

And, yes, just having filled out my tax returns, I wish taxes could be lower.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[ThisIsFred]

I've been hearing this kind of bullshit for the past 30 years, yet in the meantime Europe keeps getting richer and poverty keeps steadily increasing in the US.

I disagree. The US on the whole is fabulously wealthy. The level of poverty isn't a constant that can be directly compared between countries; our governments define the poverty line. Almost 70 per cent of US residents own homes, and most of us have our own private transportation. Perhaps you're thinking of the pay gap between blue collar workers and senior management, which has been increasing (and will continue as long as regulations of wages, benefits, etc. continues to make hiring riskier for small companies, and as long as the majority of our manufacturing infrastructure remains at a technology level somwhere between the 1930s and the 1960s). It also doesn't help that our welfare system has (or had) the tendency to keep generations of families on the dole, instead of helping them become self-sufficient. Considering that the basic system pays according to the number of dependants, you can see how that creates a growing class of people way below the poverty line.

Europe has lower crime, longer lifespans, lower infant mortality, you name it they've got it. Go back to reading "USA Today" and keep dreaming that you live in utopia.

I don't know if it's a lower crime rate, or the fact that we arrest people at the drop of a hat. Having lots of disposable income and harsh drug law enforcement doesn't help (in urban areas), either. I have no mortality statistics for westernized European countries, so I can't compare the mortality rates, but the average lifespan in the US is about 77 years. I don't contend that the USA is the ultimate utopia, but then again the definition of "utopia" appears to be subjective. What some others suggest would be my definition of Hell. This is not to say that the way it is now is my ideal; I do complain, but on the whole I've had a pretty comfortable life.

p.s. USA Today is junk rag as far as I'm concerned.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[tkw954]

and most of us have our own private transportation

I wouldn't say this is a measure of wealth as much as a measure of the lack of public transportation. We all own cars because largely we have to (and because fuel is much cheaper).

Re:You don't seem to understand

[ThisIsFred]

When you consider the costs of maintaining infrastructure, policing drivers, cleaning up after auto "accidents" (police, fire, rescue and hospital bills), registering and insuring automobiles, and the fact that cars are much less efficient in terms of fuel expended / passengers transported, it becomes apparent that we have a lot of money to burn on personal transportation. The fact that most people trade-in cars in under 3 years also tells me, "lots of disposable income".

Re:You don't seem to understand

[d_strand]

Absolutely. The total tax pressure in sweden is very high. Around 80-90% if I recall correctly. However, when people speak about taxlevel they generaly mean direct income tax, and thats why I said 30-35%.

If we look at total tax pressure most other countries, including ol' US, are above 50% (...again IIRC).

Re:You don't seem to understand

[d_strand]

100% percent sure. Total tax pressure, including vat and other stuff, gets much higher of course.

Also it depends which income bracket you're in. Below ap. 250.000-300.000 SEK it's around 33% in most places.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[EuropeUnited]

Well, I do agree with your main point, but I have to correct you on the "getting richer" part. The US has had a higher growth in both GNP and average incomes than most European countries, for the last twenty thirty or so.

The average Swede makes about USD 25k/year before taxes. Granted, we don't pay for college or health care, but for most people, it still means quite a bit less money to spend on luxuaries.

Also, the European people is aging quite fast, so in the coming decades the costs for public health will rise very fast, while there won't be particulary many more people working and paying taxes.

There really is no utopia on either side of the atlantic.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Anonymous Coward]

Listen I live in germany, and I lived in the us for 5 years. The parent post is as full of BS as the grandparent at least. No, europe is not a disaster area, but no it doesn't keep getting richer either.

It boils down to this: You can get rich in the US, but you can fall a lot farther too.

In my opinion the euro won't be a disaster, but it will not be as stable as the dollar or the mark was for a while yet. An as for the unemployment situation it's almost 10% here so don't go on about it being bad in the states.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[Snaller]

Amazing. Didn't know that.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[love2hateMS]

Actually my apologies. I did was speaking in general to socialist apologist and using your message as a vector to introduce that topic. I did not mean to target you specifically.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[love2hateMS]

I don't recall anywhere indicating that the U.S is a utopia. As far as I'm concerned we are also headed down the socialist path and it is quite dangerous. There are a lot of wonderful things about Europe, but the socialist leanings are not among them!

Your hostility is quite telling. There was nothing hostile in my message, and yet you reacted with a fairly vitriolic tone. Perhaps I touched a nerve?

P.S. I don't read USA Today.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[MMN-o]

Awesome. Must've been me you meant with "I couldnt hear what the hell the nerd was mumbling into his microphone". :)

If you'd like to hear the speech again, feel free to download it via bittorrent from:
The Pirate Bay (Swedish for anyone else who thinks of downloading it)

Hopefully I'm not as mumblish the second time you hear me ;)

Re:You don't seem to understand

[d_strand]

Ta det inte personligt, jag hörde faktiskt inte :-)

Kan ju ha berott på att jag var en bit därifrån iofs.

Re:You don't seem to understand

[MMN-o]

Nja. Är ganska mumlig av mig, första gången jag höll tal egentligen. Borde haft en syntetisk röst som talade åt mig istället :) Kanske hade blivit mindre monotont, och tydligare. :D

Because on this particular day,

[King_of_Prussia]

the stoner:police ratio exceeds safe arresting levels.

It's a legit stance

[Sycraft-fu]

And one that some OSS people take rather seriously. It can be summarized as such:

Information is not a physical good, and shouldn't be treated as such. It costs virtually nothing to make a copy and spread information, and all of that cost is incured by the copier. Thus there should be no ownership of information, it should be free to all to promote progress and free thinking.

Now, I'm not saying there aren't problems with this point of view, but there certianly seem to be problems with the current views on intellectual property. This is a legit stance and one that can certianly be taken seriously. I don't think it's the right answer, but that doesn't mean I'm going to dismiss it as not serious.

Re:It's a legit stance

[Anonymous Coward]

What are the problems with current views on intellectual property? That you, or anyone else will be deprived of listening to a song? Big deal.

Re:It's a legit stance

[blincoln]

This is a legit stance and one that can certianly be taken seriously.

I am not sure that it is.

The reason Western society values Intellectual Property is theoretically to provide rewards for people who come up with new ideas.

Look at the former Soviet Union, or today's Hong Kong. There, it was/is easily possible to copy someone else's hardware design and sell it yourself, because of the level of IP law enforcement.

If (to use a real example*) a Soviet company could produce exact copies of Nintendo's Game and Watch toys, their selling of them wouldn't be taking away any merchandise from Nintendo, and yet Nintendo would still be losing out on sales to a massive number of people - especially since the Soviet company, with minimal R&D and labour costs could sell their product at a reduced price.

If IP law didn't exist at all, what is the incentive for Nintendo to develop the original product in the first place if someone is just going to clone it and sell it for a lower price?

* In the 80s, Nintendo investigated moving into the Soviet market. Their contact there, as a show of Soviet manufacturing ability, produced an exact copy of the Game and Watch toy, minus the Nintendo logo. To my knowledge it was never mass-produced.

The more laws there are, the more crime there is

[Sunnan]

Do you choose your morals after the law instead of the other way around?

HAHA DENMARK SUCKS

[nil5]

GOOOOOO SSSSVVVVVEEEEERRRIIIIIGGEEEEE!!!!!!!

wtf is a DKK? donkey kong kountry? thank God i'm american and don't have to deal with your european monopoly-money currency.

Re:HAHA DENMARK SUCKS

[Anonymous Coward]

You'd better soon be learning to play with Indian rupee and Chinese renminbi.

Media attention

[TorKlingberg]

It got quite a lot of attention in Swedish media, both before and after the event. Here are some links (all in Swedish):

Dagens Nyheter, morning paper

Svenska Dagbladet, morning paper

Aftonbladet, tabloid

Computter Sweden (paying subscribers only)

Yelah

Gnuheter, /. clone

Re:Media attention

[Anonymous Coward]

Any english?

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[Anonymous Coward]

"Göran Persson", a fool when it comes to foreign politics.
No, he's a fool when it comes to just about anything.

A little explanation of their views

[Anonymous Coward]

A lot of posters here say "How can they demand the abolishment of IP laws? They must exist!"

Well. Piratbyrån (the bureau of piracy organization) has the opinion that the current IP-Laws does not help and/or protect content creators / artists, they protect the publishers, record companies and stifle innovation. Many artists only want to spread their music and play concerts (where many small artists make most of their money anyway).

An example of todays bad IP-laws; After the artists death the copyright is still valid up to 70(?) years after. That is not protecting the rights of the artist, that is protecting the rights of the owner of the copyrights. - and those are separate issues.

Piratbyrån is of the opinion that the laws of today is formed by and for the major owners of copyrights - such as publishers and record companies, and therefor they want to abolish these laws.

Please note that I am not a member of piratbyrån, if there are someone from piratbyrån here; please explain it a little further.

Re:A little explanation of their views

[Oligonicella]

"Many artists only want to spread their music and play concerts (where many small artists make most of their money anyway)."

Straw. You're presuming that there is some opposition to them doing this right now. No one is preventing them. They can post their music on a server and let it fly.
I wonder why more of them don't?

Re:A little explanation of their views

[pomac]

Wasn't it some artist way back that discovered that he didn't own his own music? Esp when he changed recordcompay. (I have a distinct memory of this)

Afair they can't post their music online even if they want to since the record company owns it.

Otoh, they could make 'online productions' that are only avail online, but that wouldn't help either.

Re:A little explanation of their views

[jareds]

An example of todays bad IP-laws; After the artists death the copyright is still valid up to 70(?) years after. That is not protecting the rights of the artist, that is protecting the rights of the owner of the copyrights. - and those are separate issues.

That is, at best, a side issue. For if you assume for the sake of argument that copyright protection until the artist's death is beneficial, then it is easy to argue that it should be extended after the artist's death. Otherwise, artists who wanted to sell the copyright to their work outright would find that it would be worth much less if they were in poor health. In the present system, the duration which copyright lasts after the artist dies is long enough that no one to whom they might sell their copyrights will care in practice.

I'm not trying to start an argument about copyrights. I'm just pointing out that what you say is backwards. Whether copyrights after the artist's death are good depends on whether copyrights are good in general.

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[Tagren]

This is a picture of him standing next to Bush. It is the *thin* guy to the left:
http://europa.eu.int/comm/mediatheque/photo/select /news/p-008306-00-4h.jpg

Interesting note is that he earn 110,000 SEK/Month. Wich translates to about $11000/Month. :) So that is were our tax went to.
---

These guys have a good point!

[curiuz]

Yeah, let's ridicule these guys 'cos they look geeky! ...on /.?!?!

Sure they don't look too intimidating but they did manage to register 5700 members and deliver 20000 signatures against "cooperate abuse of IP rights" .

If nothing else they raise awareness on important issues to wich the general public is oblivious.

Sure, their methods are controversial. So were Robin Hood's. But, when you're up against Goliath, you don't have much of a choice. It's easy to criminalize the behaviour of a minority 'cos the majority writes the law.

I understand taking extreme measures when faced with overwhelming power. At least they're not hurting anyone. It is still a relatively minor economical crime that they encourage. The RIAA want to emprison people for illegal file sharing. Who's terrorizing?

And, don't give them a hard time 'cos they're young. Youth's careless and spontaneous outroar against injustice certainly may cause progress as well as any old farts' laborious dialectics.

Re:These guys have a good point!

[NickeB]

You would have a point, if things were as you seem to believe.

The vast majority of piratbyrån could care less about freedom of speech, or bringing evil big corporations down, they're afraid of getting caught for pirating. As I said in an earlier post, the absolute majority are kids who just discovered that they can download pr0n from kazaa, and 5 seconds later got to know that it's illegal.

We don't really have any witchhunt ala RI/MPAA here (and we don't want it) so your comparition is a bit out of context. People in the US gets sued for billions, and as far as I'm aware, the worst penalty a pirate here has got is a warning.

Things are different over here. In the US, we hear about the FBI wanting to spy on americans, we hear about the MP/RIAA suing people in every direction etc. This is of course very bad!
We don't have that situation here (yet) though, so please don't try blow this baloon so big that it pops.

They raise awareness, but in a negative light. My fear is that more people will sympathize with Antipiratbyrån or som other worthless organization than take them seriously, since it honestly is hard to take piratbyrån seriously!

Re:These guys have a good point!

[curiuz]

You believe that these are kids that just discovered kazaa and porn. Fine. They might be.

I just rendered the impression that I got from the media. It can't be that much different from what other people get. Where did you get your impression from?

I'm sure things are different in Sweden than in the US, but since there were serious lawsuits in neighbouring Denmark, it's not a great leap to imagine them not being far off in Sweden.

Re:These guys have a good point!

[Arioch of Chaos]

NickeB, you almost seem to have some personal grudge against Piratbyrån? ;-) Although I to not support their demand for the abolishment of all IP I maintain my position that it's good that someone makes some noise. A lot of the things they are advocating are things that I think should be legal (e.g. all copying for personal use). And look at their "Småpiraterna" campaign*. I think it's brilliant.

* "Småpiraterna" means "the little pirates" and is a web page about how parents can download movies, games etc for their children. Statements like "Now I don't have to chose between cartoons and new boots. She can have both" (my transaltion) are mixed with advertising style pictures of parents and children.

Re:These guys have a good point!

[NickeB]

Gah, i wish i could find a way to send a PM over slashdot (if such a thing exists), a discussion could prove interesting, same thing with "Vaste". The slashdot boards are not a place for this, really.

I don't have a personal grudge against piratbyrån, nor am I any undercover SÄPO agent trying to keep you peons in line ;-)
I'm not totally disagreeing with piratbyrån, but the image they portray (I believe that's the word...) of themselves render only a negative image to be viewed by outsiders.
Pirating and continuing to "pirate" is one thing, trying to glorify it, and completely ridding the world of IP is quite another!

Re:These guys have a good point!

[Arioch of Chaos]

You're Swedish, right? Some cryptic contact info for me can be found @ my Gnuheter user page. ;-) I'm always interested in discussing these things, espescially with Swedes.

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[rTough]

Almost correct... Our head of state is Carl XVI Gustaf (our king)... Göran Persson is our primeminister...

Cassette Tape and Cross Bones?

[nutznboltz]

Their banner seems so out-of-date. I guess it must be paying homage to the first inexpensive, mass-marketed electronic/electro-mechanical device that moved information duplication capabilities into the hands of the un-incorporated populous.

Re:Cassette Tape and Cross Bones?

[Halfbaked Plan]

Someone needs to jumpstart those poor folks forward into 1983 and floppy diskettes.

Re:Cassette Tape and Cross Bones?

[Tablizer]

Their banner seems so out-of-date.

Europeans are appearently more into recycling and reuse than us Yankies. Probably left over from an 70's protest or something.

Than again, modern stuff is more virtual such that there are fewer easily-recognizable physical symbols. A disk would just look like a big "O" on two-toned prints.

Re:Cassette Tape and Cross Bones?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's an old anti-piracy logotype that was used like in the 1980s. It was an industry sticker "Home taping is killing music"

yes it's pirated work :D

Phun

[MC68040]

Actually, everyone that doesn't speak Swedish should know that "Piratbyrån" is a phun of "Antipiratbyrån" and I guess everyone knows the word anti.
(piratbyrån = piracy agency)

Re:Phun

[real_smiff]

ok but I do speak english and what does "phun" mean? I looked it up on urbandictionary and the result is "Perpetually Horny Unusually Naughty". well that should come in handy :) "in any definition, however, it should be noted that phun is a word used to denote a positive quality, or qualities, found within-or without-a person." or perhaps you just meant "fun" and your grammar is "phunny" (kidding alright, don't get worked up, but this word was new to me...).

Re:Phun

[Anonymous Coward]

Er... I think he meant "pun".

Cease and desist

[Big Nothing]

Your unlawful copying of our images will not go unpunished! You will hear from our lawyers!

/Piratbyrån

analog?

[Anonymous Coward]

wtf are they doing with a cassette tape on ther flag over the bones?

Still Waiting

[Bruha]

Considering the site does not load I can only assume they didnt get more bandwidth.

Learn from China

[xiashang00]

Aha, Sweedish should learn from Chinese, here the wide bandwidth and priacy are what people are used to, like air and water so you seldom think about them...

Re:The letter

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually Ångstön will in impress them even more.

Wrong lingo...

[ari_j]

Arrr! Ya, sure, we'll give a bucket of fresh lutefisk to whoever's sister slashdotted their initials into our moose!

Abolition of IP laws would be disasterous

[Anonymous Coward]

If you want to discourage invention that's probably the single most effective step you could take.

People invest the time and money to invent because their invention is protected by law which permits them to recover their investment and also to make the profit that they would otherwise have made working in that time.

If you invest time and money to invent and then your invention is unprotected and copied and you make no money, the consequence is simple: no one invents any more.

Adam Smith wrote about this over two hundred years ago. It's absolutely clear and straightforward and goes to show that by and large people hold opinions in matters about which they are not qualified.

--
Callas

Re:Abolition of IP laws would be disasterous

[Anonymous Coward]

I find this view quite simply wrong.

Bands would still be able to perform, and earn money by doing concerts.

Linux would still keep being developed, and distributions would still make money, just as they do today.

Movies would still rake in cash from theaters. A movie is still best viewed in a theater - and seriously - wouldn't you prefer to view LoTR in a theater than a lousy pirated copy on a tiny TV screen?`

Actually, a great step forward would be to abolish IP laws for individuals, but not for companies. That way, you wouldn't be allowed to start your own cinema selling tickets to a pirated movie, you wouldn't be able to press CD's of pirated music and sell -- but you would be able to fetch the movie from the net, and you would be able to fetch music from the net.

That way, people could get copies of any software and learn to use it at home, but companies would have to pay for it to be allowed to use it. People would teach themselves the software at home, and companies would have to pay for it. .. and so forth. :)

Re:Abolition of IP laws would be disasterous

[oldstrat]

Your Anonymous statements require proof.
"your invention is unprotected and copied and you make no money, the consequence is simple: no one invents any more."

I doubt that, needs would still exist and there would still be money to be made by filling those needs.

What would change is that 'invention' would become a different proposition going from get rich quick, and retire, to invent more often to produce an income.

Current IP law is becoming too cumbersome with innovation being killed by trivial patents that are interfering with development.
Many inventions are stillborn because of the threat of licensing of the obvious and that products are forced to produce enough income to cover the huge IP tax that licensing creates.

Abolishing IP laws might not be a good idea, but it might be a better idea than suffocation by IP extreme.

Re:Abolition of IP laws would be disasterous

[Arioch of Chaos]

"Actually, a great step forward would be to abolish IP laws for individuals, but not for companies. That way, you wouldn't be allowed to start your own cinema selling tickets to a pirated movie, you wouldn't be able to press CD's of pirated music and sell -- but you would be able to fetch the movie from the net, and you would be able to fetch music from the net."

Amen. I would draw the line at commercial activities rather than wheter they are performed by a company or not, though.

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, I really hate to play this game. But you could always amuse yourself with how much of your equipment in "the war on terror" is stamped "Bofors" As i recall the most noteworthy examples are the AT-4/AT-4CS and the Carl Gustaf. There might be more. These are inventions from Sweden.

You totally missed the point.

[mc6809e]

First, you are not free if you're forced to pay for someone else's high-speed porn link. Freedom is being able to say "no thanks". If the response is "tough luck" then you are not free.

Don't confuse democracy with freedom. They aren't the same unless you mean the majority is free to do whatever it wants to the minority.

Second, if there was enough money available by those that would use such a system, then a private company would step in to provide the service. If there is no such company, then obviously there isn't enough money available by those that would use such a system to fund such a system. Whether the government or company, someone has to get paid to do the work. People don't run fiber for free.

So, where will the extra money come from? It has to come from Tax payers that didn't want the system in the first place. QED they're getting used but you don't care because you're getting your broadband.

Sure, they will get it, too. But their use will be small in proportion to how much they pay. Again, if they thought it was worth it in the first place, there'd be no reason to tax them. They would have paid willingly.

Re:You totally missed the point.

[The Creator]

You can apply the same reasoning to anything the goverment does, that leaves you with anarchy. Under anarchy who keeps you free?

Re:You totally missed the point.

[aliquis]

The extra money would come from the rich guys and benefit the swedes in non-central parts of Sweden which couldn't have paid for it themself. Simple as that.

Re:You totally missed the point.

[Anonymous Coward]

And the rich would then have to fire 50% of the workforce to fight aggressice taxation. Where does that leave us now?

Re:You totally missed the point.

[Anonymous Coward]

Under anarchy, Sam Colt keeps me free.

Re:You totally missed the point.

[MrDickey]

"Freedom is being able to say "no thanks"" I said no thanks to the Iraq war. "Again, if they thought it was worth it in the first place, there'd be no reason to tax them." Unless they wanted a service handled in a non-profit government, which would offer the service cheaper

Re:You totally missed the point.

[The Creator]

And when you sleep?

Re:You totally missed the point.

[Anonymous Coward]

lies, damn lies and (made up) statistics.

Re:You totally missed the point.

[Eivind]

Uhm. In any existing state you're forced to pay for stuff other people decided that the nation needs, regardless of what you think about it.

Even people who never voted for Bush will have to pay for the War on Terror. People who think posession of minor quantities of cannabis should be legal still have to pay for the jails and courts which today deal with it. And so on.

Show me a single country that is "free" with this definition of yours.

Debate

[Anonymous Coward]

If anyone would like to debate with piratbyrån on abolishment of IP-laws, they can be found at #piratbyran.org @ efnet.

DN

[Aderym]

For any swedish people reading this, here is Dagens Nyheters article. http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=1058&a=26 1045&previousRenderType=2

Warez the future

[ChronoWiz]

I looked through all of the images of the demonstration, and found one to have a particularly good shot of one of the banners, which happened to be a pretty good pun.

Warez the future!

Re:The letter “Å”

[orbitalia]

It depends if it is a long or a short "Å" sound. In Swedish the letter "Å" itself is actually pronounced with a long vowel sound in American English, like the "aw" in awesome (or "ou"ght in British English). The short sound (when used in words is pronounced like 'o' in "ogg").

Anyway, as a Brit living in Sweden I think Swedes demonstrating over a lack of bandwidth is a bit like Saudis protesting over a lack of sand. Get outta it! Most people in the cities have access to 10/100Mbit connections and DSL out of the cities. Note they are after 600Mbit!. No sympathy at all. Spoilt kiddies who don't know they are born syndrome.

Ho hum.

Re:Swedish Pirates

[hanssprudel]

The Vikings were not pirates, they were traders. They just had their own methods of breaking down trade barriers and confronting protectionism.

In a sense, the Vikings were the original free trade lobbyists.

Warez the Swedish grrrls waving the phreak flag?

[turnstyle]

Too bad, I was hoping for a better boy/girl ratio in the pics. I wanted to see Swedish lady hax0rs waving the phreak flag. Will we never win?

Consider the Swedish Economy

[Andy_R]

This might be a case of cultural imperialism on my part, but I'm guessing that Sweden is big importer of IP, and a very tiny exporter.

If they did abolish IP (highly unlikely of course), it would free up their music industry for local bands to compete fairly with imported music and it's huge riaa/etc backing, and actually HELP their economy.

The only Swedes who would lose out are ones who make a living from IP, which is currently just ABBA as far as I can tell, and they are already richer than Croesus.

Re:Consider the Swedish Economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember ABBA? All the swedish pop? Do you know Max Martin?

Re:Consider the Swedish Economy

[Anonymous Coward]

'm guessing that Sweden is big importer of IP, and a very tiny exporter.

Actually, no. For some reason Sweden is a *huge* exporter when it comes to music, much bigger than the US in relation to its population.

Re:Consider the Swedish Economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, no. For some reason Sweden is a *huge* exporter when it comes to music, much bigger than the US in relation to its population.

Some Reason == Death Metal & related...

Re:Consider the Swedish Economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, Sweden is the world's third largest exporter of music.

Re:Consider the Swedish Economy

[Anonymous Coward]

Some Reason == Death Metal & related...

Yeah, like Eric Gadd, Kent and Titiyo? Now come along with me, and I'll ease your ignorance...

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[Anonymous Coward]

I want the head of the head of our state on a stake.

Or at least a major news outlet writing about his indiscretions.

(Yes, I'm swedish).

Re:The letter “Å”

[Anonymous Coward]

That's the letter 'Ä', not 'Å'
The letter 'A' with a circle on top is pronounced like the 'a' in 'all'
The letter 'A' with two dots on top is pronounced
like the 'a' in 'hang'
The letter 'O' with two dots on top is pronounced
like the 'ea' in 'learn'

BitTorrent Link

[Anonymous Coward]

click

You don't understand freedom

[Sycraft-fu]

At least as it applies to nations. Freedom, or at least a free society does NOT mean the ability to do whatever you want. That is called Anarchy, and has never worked for a society. A free society is one where the people control the government in an indrect way. That doesn't mean that they are free to do whatever, just that they are free to change the way their government works.

This isn't up for debate, this is what a free country means. You may feel that isn't enough freedom, but that doesn't change how the word is used. In your point of view, there would be NO free countries since they all tell you what you can and can't do, and levy some taxes. Under what seems to be your view, the only real freedom is Anarchy (the absence of government).

Re:You don't understand freedom

[mc6809e]

Freedom, or at least a free society does NOT mean the ability to do whatever you want. That is called Anarchy, and has never worked for a society. A free society is one where the people control the government in an indrect way.

Again you miss the point.

Freedom to do what you want is anarchy.

Freedom FROM others is political freedom.

They are not the same thing.

In the case of publically financing something like broadband access, there will be some people required to pay for it though they do not use it or want it. They are not free in this case from a burden placed on them by others. That burden is in the form of taxes.

They literally are working for someone else without benefit to themselves. That's a form of involuntary servitude.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Tonytheloony]

It means people who weren't born with a golden spoon in their mouth are able to afford things such as healthcare or, in this case, information. People like you probably consider the law of gravity a form of servitude. Wake up.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[N1KO]

Good communications benefit everyone, that's why you subsidize the cost of building/maintaining roads and public transportation even if you might not use them.

I imagine service will be offered like any other utility, those who use it pay for it. Assuming people pay for their own utilities in Sweden.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[mc6809e]

It means people who weren't born with a golden spoon in their mouth are able to afford things such as healthcare or, in this case, information. People like you probably consider the law of gravity a form of servitude. Wake up.

Why don't you just say you think a modest amount of involuntary servitude is okay, or that the rich should be made to occasionally serve the poor?

At least that would be honest.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Jim Starx]

You could say the same thing about everything else taxes are used for. How many people out their would opt out of paying their social security if they could? How many pay taxes that help upkeep the roads when they don't actually own a car? How many people have never needed a cop or been to court yet still pay for them via taxes?? The point here is that these things are for the common good. Even if you don't directly use these things, they still benifit your life. A free internet connection would obviosly be for the common good, the argument is whether that good justifies the cost of putting the system in place.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Jim Starx]

You do realize that he's arguing in favor of a free internet connection.... and that you're trolling someone that agree's with you?

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Jim Starx]

Because calling it servitude is retarded.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[foolip]

A free society is one where the people control the government in an indrect way. ... This isn't up for debate, this is what a free country means.

Oh, and why do you get to define what a free country means? Perhaps the word "free country" is often used to mean a country having representative democracy, but that the population of those countries are actually free? What if all the choices are the same, or if the barrier to voting is so high that not all people can afford to cast their vote? Even in a representive democracy where everyone votes, it's still the dictatorship of the majority. This may be a reasonable compromise (although I think there are better alternatives), but that doesn't make the system "free".

Furthermore, having the freedom of {speach,movement,whatever} doesn't automatically mean that you're free or have control over your life since the most important power is weilded not by government, but by corporations.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[mc6809e]

The point here is that these things are for the common good.

Values are subjective. Therefore there is no such thing as "the common good". Of course, most people that use the idea of the "common good" usually just mean THEIR good.

There may be things that are considered desirable by many people, but that's not the same thing.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[mc6809e]

Because calling it servitude is retarded.

The reason it isn't obvious is because tax dollars that come back to you look the same as dollars you spent somewhere to obtain a product or service.

You don't know who it is you're serving for free.

Consider Joe hamberger maker and his payroll taxes. It's about 6+% right now. When he is payed, this 6% comes out in taxes and eventually it ends up in the hands of Bill retiree.

So Bill retiree comes in with this money. He hands it to Joe and asks for a hamberger. Joe takes the money and makes a hamberger. Eventually, this money makes it back into Joe's paycheck where it gets taken out again and given to Bill again. Bill comes back next month for another hamberger. Repeat.

So what is happening here? Joe is making Bill senior free hambergers. Joe doesn't realize it because the money Bill give him looks like anyone else's money. He can't tell the difference. Except it is different -- it's the money Joe was forced to give Bill senior in taxes. Bill senior is merely stopping by to get his free hamberger that Joe must prepare for him.

Joe, through his taxes, is serving Bill without getting anything in return. That's a form of servitude.

All tax money that is spent eventually puts a demand on the productive efforts of the economy and there will be Joes out there to do the work. If Joe gets nothing in return, he's being used.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Jim Starx]

Joe has agreed to give Bill senior free hamburgers in exchange for a promise that when Joe becomes a senior he too will get free hamburgers. Joe knows this. It's called a social contract.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Jim Starx]

Of course there's a common good. Values are subjective, so everyone doesn't always agree on what it is, but it's still their. People don't agree on capitol punishment or abortion because their values and their definitions of what those things entail differ. But everyone can agree that murder is wrong. Outlawing murder is for the common good.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[mc6809e]

Joe has agreed to give Bill senior free hamburgers in exchange for a promise that when Joe becomes a senior he too will get free hamburgers. Joe knows this. It's called a social contract.

In exchange for a promise from whom? Bill? He'll be dead!

You mean Joe allows it to be done to him because he believes he'll be able to do it to the next generation. Well, maybe, and maybe not.

In any case, if Joe is not given a service or promise or anything or less than he wants in exchange for his service, then he is getting used.

But I'm glad you took the time to read through the message.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Jim Starx]

In exchange for a promise from whom? Bill?

No, the government. The return is not immediate, but that does not mean it's not there.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Guppy06]

"Freedom, or at least a free society does NOT mean the ability to do whatever you want."

Actually, yes, it does. Governments should only come into play when what someone wants gets into the way of what someone else wants.

"A free society is one where the people control the government in an indrect way."

That may be all well and good for you, but I am not a "people," I am a person. According to your rules the only way I can have any say in the way my government works is to try to find scores of people who think and feel just like I do. If I could do that I probably wouldn't be here on Slashdot posting this right now.

Instead, I have "people" telling me what I can and can't do because I am just a person and don't truly have a people of my own to boss others around with. This is called "tyranny of the majority," where the only 'free' people are those with numbers on their side.

"In your point of view, there would be NO free countries since they all tell you what you can and can't do, and levy some taxes."

And his point is invalidated how, exactly?

I have no qualms with taxes so long as they are spent on something I see a benefit from, even if it is only indirectly. But what's in it for me if I pay for somebody else's broadband? Worse yet, what if I'm "Born Again" and don't want to pay for what those lonely teenagers are using their broadband for? If the fruits of my labor are forcibly taken from me and used to do something offensive to me, how is that freedom? Where's the freedom to say "I want nothing to do with this?"

"This isn't up for debate,"

"Free speech" as in "free until I disagree with you?"

Re:You don't understand freedom

[donutz]

A free internet connection would obviosly [sic] be for the common good, the argument is whether that good justifies the cost of putting the system in place.

How obvious is it? Counter-example: people who can't afford a computer -- what good is a free internet connection? Seems more that it benefits those who already have, and further represses the have-nots.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Jim Starx]

I don't see how it represses anyone. If they don't have a computer then they're not going to have their own internet connection. But if the people that do have a computer can have free internet then that certainly lowers the cost to connect (elevating a portion of the have-not's into the have's). In addition it increases the chance of a friend having the internet or of a local coffee shop type place putting up some public terminals; there are many ways for free internet to indirectly benifit those who don't have a computer.

Re:You don't understand freedom

[Alexei]

"In any case, if Joe is not given a service or promise or anything or less than he wants in exchange for his service, then he is getting used."

Well, that's the crux of it, then, isn't it? Of course Joe is getting various things in return (police, roads, retirement benefits etc.). He might not choose to do it if he had the choice, but given the nature of roads, police, and such, we make it mandatory.

It is fair in some sense to call it forced servitude, but it's not without reward, and it's what "we" have deemed neccesary to keep society running.

Re:first

[flatface]

Arr, the pirates always get FP.

Re:The letter “Å”

[Anonymous Coward]

isn't the 'o' in 'go' pronounced exactly like the 'a' in 'all'?

The absolutely scariest part of this article...

[Kjella]

...is that I recognized what AYBABTU was an acronym for, before I saw it. I got to read less Slashdot...

Kjella

not Arr... GRRRR!

[templest]

Bunch of ungrateful kiddies!!

Here I am with my 5Mbit line thinking it's UBER-INSANELY-CRAZY fast. And these crazies want "100 Mbit for all"?...

Make them all walk the plank, that's what I say.

Infrastructure.

[kunudo]

What do governments do? They provide infrastructure. That's one of the reasons they collect taxes. The swedish government collects more taxes, so people expext to get more and better infrastructure. I don't know about you, but I would consider backbones infrastructure... It's something done not for direct profit, but for the convenience of the people.

Other countries work differently, and it might do you well to travel a little outside the US...

Re:Infrastructure.

[mc6809e]

What do governments do? They provide infrastructure. That's one of the reasons they collect taxes. The swedish government collects more taxes, so people expext to get more and better infrastructure. I don't know about you, but I would consider backbones infrastructure... It's something done not for direct profit, but for the convenience of the people.

There are all sorts of conveniences you could apply this same logic to. Why not have a ministry of washing machines, for example? Wouldn't it be a convenience of the people? There is probably an even greater need for washers than broadband.

Other countries work differently, and it might do you well to travel a little outside the US...

And it might do you well to look a bit at the history of economic systems.

"Imagine a country that flies into space, launches Sputniks, creates such a defense system, and it can't resolve the problem of women's pantyhose. There's no toothpaste, no soap powder, not the basic necessities of life. It was incredible and humiliating to work in such a government. And so our people were already worked up, and that is why the dissident movement occurred." -- Mikhail Gorbachev

Re:Infrastructure.

[Jim Starx]

Internet, as a source of information, is more important then washing machines. Maybe when they get the free internet up to everyones standards they will try use the taxes to give everyone a washing machine. But this is what they're doing first.

And the Gorbachev quote is out of place. Sweeden has the basic necessities of life; there's no comparison.

Re:Infrastructure.

[kunudo]

There are all sorts of conveniences you could apply this same logic to. Why not have a ministry of washing machines, for example? Wouldn't it be a convenience of the people?

Well, yes but that would be dumb, whereas providing your nation with good and reliable access to information wouldn't be such a dumb thing to do.

omg AYBABTU

[konmem]

If I were a pedestrian in sweden all I would be thinking is... WTF.

Re:omg AYBABTU

[Anonymous Coward]

Because geeks never walk, and pedestrians never read slashdot?

Well..

[Ztream]

As a Swede and a person with a positive view of the removal of IP laws, I must say that just sort of event just gives a bad name to people who are actually serious. Sure, perhaps they can raise some awareness of these thoughts, but after that they will will have to work for years to wash away the misconceptions they have planted themselves.
On the other hand, I must agree that this is quite amusing, at least for people like us (the slashdot community).

Re:Well..

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, considering the great impact and the number of people who know about you I guess it doesn't really matter. The biggest problem in Sweden (well, all countries really) is the lack of debate and the apathy.

Yaargg there

[Anonymous Coward]

Shiiit these people are just whiny bitchs back in my day i downloaded 500 megs a week on my 14.4 none of that fancy p2p shit either......if your gonna protest at least know all the tricks of the trade..... theres more to rip from than just the peer 2 queer services

Re:The letter “Å”

[VanillaCoke420]

Because it's too difficult to learn how to pronounce an entire foreign word...

Re:The letter ҁө

[Anonymous Coward]

You're from the wrong part of Sweden :)

Property Rights Good, Capitalism Bad?

[Anonymous Coward]

There's some society's where the idea of hiring people for as low as you can get away with, then selling their work for a large profit, would be insane. In some society's if you need something fix, you go to the fixer person, and he fixes it. And if the fixer person is hungry, he comes to you and you give him some food. Sure it's mostly african tribes, but who says capitalism is "right"? It's what we have, but I'm not sure it's a universal law on earth and from god that charging for services is "right".

Your African tribe is still charging for services, though. If the fixer person refused to fix something for you, you would refuse him food. In other words, compensation for services rendered. All this time you're railing against "capitalism" (which is the creation of capital for economic prosperity), your example is one of property rights, which are a requirement of capitalism but not 1-1 direct relations of. And, of course, your "benign" example of property rights in a system devoid of montetary units is no different than the original poster's concept where he would like to be paid in electronic debit, rather than a bushel of wheat.

If the original poster had substituted "one oxen" for "pay", would it have all seemed "right" to you?

Re: anarchy?

[wirehead78]

Actually, Anarchy is not "the absence of government." It is the absence of the need for a government.

Re:Demanding bandwidth? -- Translation of the text

[Wullis]

Here's a rough translation of the text. Note that I'm Norwegian, not Swedish, so it's not perfect.

"Pirate Bureau demonstrated three places
Published 2004-05-02

Three different places, supporters of the Pirate Bureau demonstrated under paroles like "The Welfare State begines with 100Mbit" (The Welfare State is the Scandinavian term for the semi-socialist state providing free healthcare, education, etc, etc. -W) and "Abolish the copyright". In Stockholm 200 people demonstrated, in Umeå about hundred and in Malmö a brave half dozen.

The participants shouted new slogans like "Use the force - Open source" and "We want six, we want six, we want 600 Mbit" (This slogan is a parody of the more frequently used "We want six, we want six, we want six hour working days". Note that in Scandinavia, '6' is pronounced 'sex'. Which makes the slogan much more fun. -W) and carried banners with pirate- and filesharing themes. In Stockholm the history's first Copyswap was carried out, where those who carried self-burned CDs with movies or music shared these with their new friends. In Umeå a prize was given to the best dressed pirate; a real hard drive.

Both in Stockholm and Umeå the speech focused on the newly finished campaign "Stop Fluktarna" (Heck if I know what 'Fluktarna' means:P -W), who attempts to pressure the ISPs to not accept the mafia methods of the large media companies when they among other things spy on the Internet users to be able to give the name of filesharers to the police.

In Umeå the demonstration proceeded by three large ISPs who have offices in the city, and in Stockholm the final destiation was the office of the Data Inspection (A state-run thingie mainly focusing on privacy and stuff. -W) where 23.000 signatures were handed in - burned on a CD. They did not have time for the Pircacy Bureau, so the list was left in their mailbox.

The Priacy Bureau would like to thank everybody taking part in the demonstrations today. We showed that we really exist, and that we are a notable force. Until the next arrangement - keep pirating!"

Randon Note

[phoxix]

More importantly, May 1st is also when the first Eastern European country joins the EU: Poland.

Congrats from the USA.

Sunny Dubey

Any else notice

[ServeYourWorld]

Anyone else notice that in every picture the streets are empty? Not a single person outside other than the protestors. Nobody even knew they were protesting...

Re:Any else notice

[sita]

Anyone else notice that in every picture the streets are empty? Not a single person outside other than the protestors. Nobody even knew they were protesting...

No, they were hungover. Walpurgis Night (April 30) is an age old drinking fest in Sweden.

Re:Any else notice

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, you could celebrate Walpurgis by treating yourself to a Bible Black Marathon!

The real problem with real communism

[wowbagger]

OK, first of all, let up NOT confuse true Marxist communism with any of what is going on in the world today - China et. al. are as faithful to real Marxism as StarShip Troopers the movie was to the book.

The fundamental limiting factor to Marxism is the idea the "the workers own the means of production", which fails miserably in an Industrial Age society, and implodes in an Information Age society.

Consider a chip fab plant - they cost BILLIONS of dollars to build. Now, how many people work at a chip fab? Even if 10,000 people worked at a fab, that would mean that each worker's portion of the plan would come to about 100,000 dollars. Compare that to a furnature factory - which set of workers has to be worth more?

And that is the key problem - some workers need to be worth more than other workers - anathema to the Marxist. And since things like chip plants, auto (or tractor) factories and suchlike cannot be funded by the workers, *something* must come in to fund them. So you either have a) rich people (again, anathema to Marxists) or b) "The State" come in to create the plants. But if "The State" owns the plant, the workers don't own it, and "The State" is not going to give it up.

That was what prevented the Communist nations from being able to scale - Marxism didn't work, they went to "The State", and inefficency prevented them from getting anywhere.

(-- boy I wish /. would let me put an HR here)
That said, I agree with the parent - and this bunch of wastes of flesh are posterchildren for the free rider problem. And even if we assume the cost of copying software is 0, even if we assume that all electronic content should be Free (in the RMS sense), there is still the little problem that you simply cannot say "router = new Cisco; fiber = new Fiber;" - these are physical things that somebody had to expend resouces to create.

Re:The real problem with real communism

[geekee]

"And that is the key problem - some workers need to be worth more than other workers - anathema to the Marxist. And since things like chip plants, auto (or tractor) factories and suchlike cannot be funded by the workers, *something* must come in to fund them. So you either have a) rich people (again, anathema to Marxists) or b) "The State" come in to create the plants. But if "The State" owns the plant, the workers don't own it, and "The State" is not going to give it up.

That was what prevented the Communist nations from being able to scale - Marxism didn't work, they went to "The State", and inefficency prevented them from getting anywhere."

Yes. The key problem with Markist communism is that he didn't see the owners and managers as the most productive individuals in a factory. He saw them as leeches of the workers' labor. So it didn't occur to anyone who believed him that a factory run by a government might be a miserable failure since no one in the government necessarily knows or cares how to run the factory properly.

Who's not serious?

[Vaste]

Well, gee, thanks for sharing your frustration with Piratbyrån. Next time you can't win an argument over there try to think it over again before posting.

There are 14 year olds there, there are even 14 year olds without much intelligent to say. Those were not the guys you lost against. Better luck next time.

Piratbyrån is against copyright. This is an informed decision after much contemplation, unlike the one of most coming to argue against us.

Re:Who's not serious?

[NickeB]

Ah, this is irony at it's best.

I'll have you know that my opinions concerning piratbyrån mostly come from my attempts of discussing different topics with various members. Big mistake. I was mostly met with hypocritical arguments, with punchlines like "Shut the fuck up", "you're wrong" and other heavy arguments.

It's not that I couldn't win an argument, it's that it was impossible to even have a normal discussion, not to mention trying to make a point. I'm also saying that the majority of the members are immature kids, not that you are or that every single one of you are.

As an individual, you may very well have actual arguments for you belief and may even be able to discuss something, instead of screaming something over and over again and refusing to listen to counter-arguments.
I'll gladly discuss the topic, but discussing with a brick wall is rather pointless, no?

Re:Who's not serious?

[Vaste]

Well, I guess I can't defend someone behaving like that, except asking for proof. (Of course these are not really Piratbyrån but rather ppl attracted there.)

Still, once /. calms down you're welcome to return, I guess. We've a shortage of ppl not agreeing with us.

I do hope you're not being hypocritical and had some good arguments yourself, but it's a little hard for me to tell right now. :)

I would call it chutzpah

[Anonymous Coward]

as American IT pros first whine that their jobs are being outsourced to cheap labur countries and then they complain when Sweden subsides broadband access to her citizens.

If you want to have the triumphs of the capitalism, then take the tragedies as well, like being kicked out of your job, see it being outsourced to some el cheapo and you ending up homeless. Or quit whining.

Piracy is Civil Disobedience

[Catamaran]

We view piracy as a form of civil disobedience.

The fat corporations represented by the MPAA and RIAA have been fleecing the public for years. They are the real criminals.

Now, as the people are becoming empowered by technology, those same corporations are fighting a propaganda war in a desperate attempt to derail a future in which they have no place. Let us celebrate their imminent demise!

Check out Downhill Battle. They have the same sort of skull and crossbones logo.

Re:Piracy is Civil Disobedience

[blincoln]

The fat corporations represented by the MPAA and RIAA have been fleecing the public for years. They are the real criminals.

Yeah, those poor consumers, who will get lined up and gunned down if they don't purchase the latest music and movies.

Re:Piracy is Civil Disobedience

[pavon]

We view piracy as a form of civil disobedience.

Piracy is a pretty shity form of civil disobediance. The whole point of civil disobedience is to break an unjust law, and have everyone outraged when you are punished for it because they see how unjust it is. This doesn't work for piracy because, you can claim that you are doing it for the good of society all you want, but how can anyone tell that you aren't just spoiled brats who wants everything given to you for free.

You want to stick it to the RIAA? Stop promoting their music by pirating it! Thats right, just stop buying thier music all together, and support musicians who are trying to do things your way, but can't because you you keep listening to RIAA music.

Re:Piracy is Civil Disobedience

[Catamaran]

... have everyone outraged when you are punished for it
By your very narrow criteria The Boston Tea Party would be considered shitty civil disobedience.

... just stop buying thier music all together
The RIAA has the copyright to a lot of music, some good, some bad. Many of the artists have been dead for years. Should we stop listening to it (sampling it, quoting it)? Some would consider that a hardship. Or put it another way, Why didn't the colonies just stop drinking tea if they didn't want to pay the tax?

The Real Blood Suckers

[Anonymous Coward]

You're not considering anyone's point but your own. I am adding one of mine. The real crime committed is when these companies/people with power rip off the little guy for profit and get away with it just because they have more money to bribe judges and politicians etc.

- George David Weiss stole Solomon Linda's music.
http://www.cbc.ca/passionateeyesunday/feat ure_2302 03.html
- Disney and the Jungle Emperor Leo.
http://www.kimbawlion.com/rant2.htm
- Bob Kolody vs. Coca-Cola.
- bet your ass there are more cases.

If you're going to cry thievery, at least look at all sides who do the "stealing".

Shut up, bloody Vikings!

[Anonymous Coward]

Manually babelfishing (I'm I mere Norwegian, so bear with me, Swedish brothers ;-)

Oh, I'm sorry - I'm in the wrong skit. I meant to say thank you for the translation.

No offence meant to the nice Slashdotter from Norwegia. It's a Monty Python Skit. Spam, spam, spam, spam!

I suppose it sounds better than...

[goldspider]

..."We want free shit."

But you just keep telling yourself you're some heroic freedom-fighter rebelling against an oppressive tyrant. Heaven forbid you be honest with yourself and realize you're just a leech.

We live in a William Gibson novel

[carn1fex]

I swear.. mass demonstrations by hacker groups? What was it yesterday? Large amounts of zombie machines available for rent by organized crime? Sheesh.. i want my assassin chicks with razor fingers now.

Stupid guys...

[ozamosi]

I live in Sweden, and I just have to say: these guys are ridicolous. I think they do more to convince the persons in power that piracy is a crime than the RIAA ever could. Many people claim that what the RIAA call Piracy is try-before-you-buy, that actually helps selling the records since the "piracy" works as promotion.
These punks think that Record Companies and Movie Production Companies should be illegaized. I don't even think that they themselves knows where they think the media should come from. By saying this they effectively make the try-before-you-by argument invalid.

Stupid punks!

Principles

[TorKlingberg]

... which shows that things go wrong if you take principles too far. If we are to keep copyright, it must be to get more content produced, not because it fits your principles.

Its inevitable

[bludstone]

Not only that, but the copying and distribution itself is inevitable.

People who support IP are, bascially, fighting a battle that they will eventually lose, unless they impose some incredibly draconic control rules against people and the internet.

It took me a long, long time to realize this. Now, I dont do very much bootlegging/downloading myself (not even mp3s). I consider my purchases of media to be "supporting" the artists who create the works I enjoy. It is unfortunate that many of the companies have made my argument for purchases moot, as they dont really pay the artists a percentage of sales :(

Come to your own conclusion on this, but realize that anything short of a massive big borther campaign will fail to stop the unauthorized distribution of IP.

Dumbass

[Anonymous Coward]

Sweden is one of the largest music exporters in the world. Have you ever heard of Britney Spears? how about Backstreet boys? they are all *produced* in Sweden. The list goes on and on and on...

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[Anonymous Coward]

BLASPHEMY.

Göran Persson is not and never will be the head of state (for more than one reason, I might add). He's a common prime minister. His Royal Highness King Carl XVI Gustaf is the head of state!

Re:The more laws there are, the more crime there i

[AsparagusChallenge]

One doesn't "choose" the law. It's agreed upon by lots of people, the great majority ont oneself.

Re:Swedish Pirates

[Anonymous Coward]

Errr...no. They were pirates when confronted by inferior forces. When meeting people with more swords/people/muscle/chutzpah, they were traders.

Re:The letter “Å”

[IWannaBeAnAC]

Yeah you're probably right. I was actually half-asleep when I wrote that, and fortunately there seems to be not that many Swedes or Danes that read slashdot, because Faarbog is actually in Denmark!

I'm glad I didn't also mention the second example I had in mind (Aarhus), 'cause then it would have been really obvious I was an idiot!

IP laws

[Anonymous Coward]

I think IP laws are good, and have good intention. What I do not like is the fact that copyright in the US went from 15 years to life of the author+95 years primarily because Disney wants to make more money. I'd be willing to say life of the author or 28 years which ever is longer. It sounds like a good proposition. That way people continue to make money off of their work and if they die, their immediate families can.

Life of author plus 95 years is over the top. If I create something at the age of 20 and I live until I am 80, that would mean 155 years of copyright. The point of copyright and most intellectual laws is to encourage people to write, or make music, or movies. It is also not indefinite so that the general public can have access to material so that they can continue to create more things and so that they can learn.

Drugs are a different deal. For one, they are protected for a much shorter time and take a lot more time and money to create. But, I do think that if a very poor country is able to produce a live saving drug which otherwise would be unafforable that the rest of the world should understand. I think Bush's Prescription Drug plan is absolutely and utterly stupid as it will discourage further research(in the US anyway).

A little more radically, I think that prehaps it should be considered fair use for an individual registered student to use warez(only for academic purposes otherwise they should have to pay) in order to create presentations or papers or material. I am sure that most people with me on this, but I think it is reasonable, especially for third world countries.

I hate those euros

[hjf]

I mean, fuck, every time you see a picture of somewhere in europe, you see some fucking audi or mercedes parked right there.

Offshoring a bigger threat, protest priorities wak

[Anonymous Coward]

Why waste all that geek protest power on music downloads? Offshoring is a far bigger threat to geeks.

The human right of education

[presarioD]

Internet bandwidth can be characterized today as related to education and a means of self-expression, or a means of exchanging ideas and freely communicating.

In a western advanced industrial society as sweden or US let's say it can easily be incorporated into
the 'bill of rights'. :-)

Now as to who's gonna pay for it, I guess 'the taxpayer' is not the answer our american friends (especially) will like. :-)

Re:The letter “Å”

[foolip]

Alot of people do have a above-modem connection, but 10/100 definitely isn't the norm. Maybe for people like me at student dorms, but there are few commercial ISPs that give that much bandwidth (and most give less up than down which mean for sharing information it's severly limited). My guess is most people who have "broadband" have ADSL (which isn't very fast) or 1-2 Mbit. Anyway, 10 Mbit for everyone would be a reasonable start and alot of people are still on modem (some by choice of course).

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[Anonymous Coward]

Rojaliststackare.

I most certainly do!

[yndrd1984]

I looked at this and didn't see anything about "controlling the govenment" at all. Representative government is a way of keeping a society free, not the definition of a free society. Freedom DOES mean the ability to do what you want:

• 5. The capacity to exercise choice; free will: We have the freedom to do as we please all afternoon.

Free countries do limit what you can do when it interferes with other people's freedom, as in "your right to swing your fist ends at my nose", but not when it dosn't harm others. Even if, for the sake of argument, a country that prohibits the use of alcohol or heroin is a better place than one that allows it, if it let people vote on the prohibition, even if it is the right thing to do, this country is still less free because its citizens are not free to do it.

I'd rather not be rude and say "you don't understand freedom", but if you think the right to vote for the person that tells me I'm not allowed to say or do something is freedom, the definition certainly IS up for debate, and I would love to hear more about you point of view.

-Yndrd1984

Communisim Sucks - But so do Copyrights

[argoff]

Yes, but you're thinking of copyrights being more like a property right, and their removal more like the system coercively taking away someones property. Infact, just the opposite is true, copying does not coerce at all, but restricting what people copy is very coercive.

Your point makes perfect sense in a world of physical property and physical limits, but is useless when applied information where my copy does not deprive you of yours. Just like if 100 million more people copy Linux, the system will not become over burdoned but enhanced as more and more people enhance and add to it. Their copys do not deprive other people of theres, but there enhancements benefit eveybody. (Ironically, the same was even true for proprietary software, where the ones that had the most restrictive copying schemes have always lost out of becomming a defacto standard)

So I'll give to you that Communisim is not scalable, and I'll even go beyond that to say communisim is just plain evil, and free bandwidth coerced at others peoples expense is wrong too. But as far as copyrights are concerned, there removal is not communist, and the free rider problem is not a problem.

Re:The letter “Å”

[tormentae agent]

You must be from Skåne.

"thou shalt not steal" and a counter

[zogger]

this "don't steal" deal has a counter to it, it DOESN'T work just one way, and here's the serious flaw in predatory "profits at any cost" style capitalism like we have now being promoted as "God's way" when it *clearly isn't*.

Leviticus chapter 19, verses 35 and 36

Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in mete-yard, in weight, or in measure.

Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just bin, shall ye have: I am the Lord your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.

In other words, don't steal from your potential customers EITHER by lying and charging obscene profits over your costs.

Neither side in the great download and movie debate has a moral leg to stand on there,and the "industry" did it first, in spades, been convicted of it even by our skewed secular laws that already favored them, nothing happened to them of note, and they continued to use "unjust weights and measures" (and bearing false witness) in bribing off the political process to legitimize their unjust thefts. But, stealing what's already stolen is not righteous either, IMO.

And when it comes to other sorts of intellectual property, people who insist on it being "theirs"(closed source propietary software for instance) are shooting themselves in the foot, when we ALL share, thee and thou and me and you, we ALL get to benefit from what the other guy produces. We actually all get richer from it. That's the big picture that the mega profiteers don't seem to grasp yet, they think by keeping information secret and restricted that somehow they'll get "more" when all that happens is the other guy does that to THEM and the only people getting a lot of something for doing practically nothing are the middlemen in that deal, people who produce *nothing* worth sharing. So, to avoid work, to avoid toiling to produce, they just pass laws that insist they get paid somehow off the backs of others, if you follow the economic food chains around.

May day stolen by communism

[Anonymous Coward]

"the Swedish site Piratbyrån organised demonstrations in several Swedish towns, demanding more bandwith and the abolition of intellectual property laws."

May day, which has been a spring ritual, was stolen by Christianity, and later communism to push their own agendas. This is just more communist bs.

Re:Swedish Pirates

[Slowleggs]

Well, people from the viking era were individuals too...
I expect some groups raided where they could, but the majority were more honest and at least reluctant to take life.

"and when you sleep"

[zogger]

--that's what stout walls and doors and dogs, booby traps and intrusion systems are for.....

it probably would benefit and pay off...

[zogger]

...because in the original pieces for the article and in some comments it mentions that fiber optic already goes every place but the last mile. We've all seen how the latest and greatest of the time (late 1800s onward)-phone service-enriched everyone's lives immeasurably when it was made mandatory to go every place (well, just about every place now). IF they didn't have that yet, I'd say probably not, still too expensive, but with it 90% there (+ ~ - ), seems like a natural to me. Sweden is a high tech nation, no reason for them to not continue on the same path.

Eventually it will be treated and used as just another utility anyway, it's inevitable, there and in the US and all over the industrialised world, so-o-o, might as well just "do it"and get on with it, use it, see how it will work to make lives better, how it will improve trade and commerce, improve work, etc.

Re:first

[Anonymous Coward]

In all fairness, that was ontopic.

Re: anarchy?

[drinkypoo]

Anarchy:

1. Absence of any form of political authority.
2. Political disorder and confusion.
3. Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose.

Re:Demanding bandwidth? -- Translation of the text

[Guppy06]

"Note that in Scandinavia, '6' is pronounced 'sex'."

Hi. My family and I are looking for 'sex.'

It requires changing our economic system

[Sycraft-fu]

Quite a lot, actually, but doesn't mean it couldn't be done. For example creative works, be they art, inventions, books, whatever, could be paid for by the public. We all pay to a central repository that is then paid out based on the merit of the creation. The more valuable it is to society, the more you get paid.

Again, not saying I think this is a good idea, I don't, but it's a legit one. It's a legit stance that capatalism is ok for physical goods because there is scaracity, but not for information sinc ethe only scaracity is artifically created.

Re:Oh man are you kidding?

[Kiryat Malachi]

And?

In return, if I like your embedded box, I can not only copy your software legally, I can take your design and build it myself. If you did anything of note in your distro, I can use it in Linux for myself, distribute it to everyone, etc.

Even if you didn't do anything worth forking back in, why should anyone care? You can legally do that right now; nothing says you have to call a Linux distro Linux, you don't even have to acknowledge the fact beyond the required distribution of a copy of the GPL, and the ability to obtain source.

Right - this is going to sway people...

[HBI]

A communist group in Sweden (hell they are even marching on May Day) demanding the end of intellectual property.

Let's not make posters of this...this could set the anti-IP movement back 50 years.

Sheesh. It's like being anti-Israel and wearing a swastika armband while saying it.

Now let's all hum the Internationale together...NOT.

Re:Right - this is going to sway people...

[jcuervo]

Step one is getting the attention.

Re:Right - this is going to sway people...

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they are communistic. Then they must be evil too I guess. Godforsaken atheistic commies!

Oh well, I can blame you for jumping to conclusions, but you wouldn't have if you'd been able to read Swedish.

It says (somewhere, roughly translated from memory):
Originally 1st May was a protest about improving conditions for the workers. Now it has become a meaningless excuse for our goverments to continue to abuse the welfare prefix. We want to take 1st May back from the routine left.

Damn.

[jcuervo]

Think I know what my next tattoo is gonna be. :P

Jesus was a dirty hippy

[clawsoon]

No, really, he was. If he showed up today and started preaching his "give up all and follow me" schtick, he'd be condemned everywhere from the pages of the Wall Street Journal to fundamentalist pulpits across the land.

He probably wouldn't care about intellectual property and the RIAA and DMCA and MPAA, but he'd definitely condemn the hard-working, industrious Western world. You notice how he describes a man who "stores up things for himself"? He's describing a capitalist there, an entrepreneur - and condemning him.

No offence to anyone who believes he's the Son of God, but Jesus was a dirty hippy.

Copyright

[Anonymous Coward]

The Pirate Bureau essentially makes the case that software is owned, not licensed.

Make the switch to books and picture them all meeting downtown to exchange books and the dimes will drop.

Copy laws exist because there's a lot of money in enforcing them.

Re:i'm hella scared of 100~ bored swedish teens

[Anonymous Coward]

At least I'm not a fool when it comes to domestic politics.

wow

[jizmonkey]

funniest thing I've read in weeks.

CHEDDAR(tm) cheese?

[tepples]

A geographical indication is there to protect consumers from fraud.

In the United States, consumers recognize "cheddar" and "parmesan" cheese and "ranch", "french", and "italian" dressing as generic names, especially with "KRAFT(tm)" printed above them. So do you agree with some geographical indication proponents who hold that governments should make terms such as CHEDDAR and PARMESAN no longer generic, in effect granting trademarks to cheese makers in towns of the UK and Italy respectively? And what about FRENCH'S(tm) mustard?

Should geographical indications expire

I compare geographical indications not with patents but with trademarks. Like trademarks, geographical indications indicate the origin of a good or service, and some producers actually implement them in terms of trademarks. Under U.S. law, the holder of a trademark can renew it indefinitely as long as the mark has not become generic.

Re:CHEDDAR(tm) cheese?

[nacturation]

So do you agree with some geographical indication proponents who hold that governments should make terms such as CHEDDAR and PARMESAN no longer generic, in effect granting trademarks to cheese makers in towns of the UK and Italy respectively? And what about FRENCH'S(tm) mustard?

I don't agree with that as both cheddar and parmesan today, in the minds of most consumers, refer to the type of cheese regardless of where it was manufactured. French's mustard isn't an issue as it's not indicative of a place. "Parisian Mustard" or "France's Mustard" would be different. Champagne is a bit of an oddball as I don't think most people know it refers to a region of France, though certainly vintners would know.

Some areas are a bit gray as the intent is to protect the names of areas from being genericized with clone products not originating from those regions. For example, should Camembert, France be afforded such protection? Or Brie? Or many other food names derived from locations? I don't know what, if any, objective tests a court would apply to determine whether a geographical name has become generic enough that protection no longer makes sense.

Trademark Dilution Act

[tepples]

Or let's say you go to the movie theater and they're showing "Star Wars III". So you pay your $10 or whatever for a ticket, sit down, and the movie is nothing but two hours of the goatse guy pulling his ass open. So trademark protects ordinary people from getting scammed. Nobody can legally call their product "Star Wars" without permission.

The problem here comes when a trademark gains a wider scope, often through memorabilia licensing. First, the precedent set in the "ENJOY COCAINE" case ( Coke v. Gemini Rising ) seems to ban parody. Then the "STAR WARS" mark was plastered all over lunchboxes and toys. Finally, the Trademark Dilution Act took a trademark owner's power to control criticism even further. What purpose of protecting buyers do such broad trademarks serve?

Re:Trademark Dilution Act

[nacturation]

I disagree with such broadness, but I do find value in having trademark protection in the first place. The trick is distinguishing the good from the bad protection and, if someone suing for burning themselves because the coffee's hot is any indication, the courts don't always rule in favor of common sense. And surely there's enough precedent set in my collection of Mad Magazines to cover just about any type of satire. :)

Re:Trademark Dilution Act

[nacturation]

Oh, also wanted to say thanks for the link. I wasn't aware of that case and will definitely read up on it.

"Piracy" as positive

[Vaste]

Well, I'm not too sure about that. There's no doubt that "pirating" and "stealing" was meant from the beginning to bias the discussion. Of course it's not highsea robbery or deprivation of property. It's copyright infringement.

To keep people from instantly assuming it is wrong because stealing (in the material world) is wrong one either has to explain all that, or one could turn the word around and make it positive.

I've found the first alternative to be tiring, and Piratbyrån chose the second one. Hopefully it makes people start thinking when they try to argue. (After all, that physical property should be abolished is a very controversial point of view.) Yes, I know that it isn't always working, and that lot's of people are starting discussions armed with frustration and anger. But since they were not really serious anyway, it doesn't really matter. (To discuss you must listen.)

Cool logo

[UnhandledException]

Dude, I want a flag with that casette and cross bones logo. That'd look great over my computer desk. (I could pretend I'm l33t.)

whats wrong with this picture?

[celimage]

Ok there are a bunch of guys marching down the street claiming to be "Pirates of the Internet" with a banner. The skull in the "Skull and Crossbones" appears to be a modified cassette tape. Didnt we live thru this in the 80s? Has anyone told them they can download and burn stuff on CD? Dennis Jennings Celestial Image.com http://celestial-image.com

Re:I was there!

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck it damn fucker

yes.

[tardcore]

That is too much. Truely. Hah I say. http://www.tardcore.com TaRdCore -- You've Got Nothing Better To Do

Re:The more laws there are, the more crime there i

[Sunnan]

If that were true, then protests and demonstrations like this can be a good thing to raise awareness.

xxx generations?

[galacticdruid]

Is that like a new pr0n movie?