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FBI Investigates Open Records Request
GrooveMoose writes "A university student at the University of Texas
makes an open
records request for information on the underground tunnel system at the school.
A few months later the FBI and Secret Service come knocking on his door to see
if he's a terrorist. He's still under investigation by the federal government
regarding a completely open request."
Clearly, some paper-pusher at the university office freaked that somebody was using The Freedom of Information Act to force them to release information about their underground tunnels... most likely because the feds told universities to call them if anybody makes requests for information about campus infrastructure.
And, let's face it... even though it's perfectly legal to file a Freedom of Information Act request, doing so for topics like this totally out of the blue is certainly suspicious activity.
One thing to point out is that the agents called and said they wanted to speak with the student, but it doesn't appear they ever arrested him. That means he could have told them that he wasn't interested in meeting with them, or he could have walked out of the room at any time. He also could have at any time brought in a lawyer.
The moral of the story is that if you ask for some creepy information, and it's not exactly clear why you asked for it, then the FBI and Secret Service are going to have some questions to ask you, and they'll open a file on it. They won't deprive you of any of your freedoms over that alone... being confronted by men with badges who are looking for you may be a scary thing, but he could have just as well told them to leave him alone and they would have had to. He agreed to meet with them, so that's that.
The US goverment can not secure our borders, yet they are going after people that file FOIA requests.
Someone please explain to me how in the hell that make sense.
Consider what people would say if a terrorist requested the information for a tunnel system under a school, and the FBI didn't investigate it? It's not like they were tracking this guy's every move. He requested someone rather unusual, and they checked it out as they should.
So now everytime someone requests info through the FOIA they will be questioned by the FBI or CIA? Is the government trying to discourage this?
Its kinda usless to have a right if you are harassed every time you use it.
The Daily Texan asking for the location of security cameras to be published is at least a request that makes logical sense... the student newspaper is of course in the business of making Freedom of Information Act requests on issues that the school would rather keep under wraps.
But, assuming he's not a terrorist, why did this student want to know about the underground tunnels? He clearly isn't going to get authorized access to them. So, what value was that information to him?... that's a point that the article totally neglects. Without this kid being willing to give that explanation, no wonder he's being presumed a terrorist.
If he's got a perfectly legit reason to want to know, then he should tell us. Otherwise, I don't mind him being given extra attention every time he walks by airport security. He should have known that'd happen for making such a request without a clear reason for doing so.
This is downright CREEPY. Since when does it make you suspect to file a request under the FOIA?
This isn't tinfoil hat stuff folks, this is for real.
FOIA = government honey pot?
Think about it.
You know I'm right.
This is one time someone requested information about apparently sensitive information.
It's an abnormal request - a student doesn't have an obvious need for information about the tunnels at his school. If you went and bought 10x the amount of ammonia-based fertilizer that anyone would need, they'd investigate that too. Not because owning a lot of fertilizer is illegal, but because purchasing that amount of fertilizer is a decent sign that you may be about to do something illegal.
I'd much rather have the FBI taking the time to ask some intelligent questions when confronted with suspicious activity than letting universities be blown up.
paintball
People should only be investigated after they are proven guilty?
That's gonna work real well!
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
I go to utexas.edu. I can vouch for the administrative craziness that all too often plagues this school. :)
;)
;)
This is the same place where the suits did everything they could to keep the FOIA and other legal mechanisms from revealing information about the post-9/11 surveillance system. UT even went after our state attorney general over this. A friend of mine said it best: "Never sue someone when they have a law school."
The whole reference to UTWatch in the article creeped me out. UTWatch is a student-run organization which follows up on what the regents and other suits do. Like Ralph Nader in the 70s, its a mere watchdog organization checking if proposed policies will adversely affect the student body at large. Recently they have been very vocal speaking out concerning tuitition deregulation and the involvement of UT managing the Los Alamos laboratories. Not simply fact checkers, UTWatch does get involved when it smells something fishy.
I applaud what Mark Miller did. There is all sorts of cool things under the ground here at UT. Under ENS and RLM you can find a retired tokamak! More than just he are interested in whats buried. Simply put, what UT did (assuming it did something to spur this) simply lacked honor.
The thing that I found most ironic after 911:
Up here in Canada we were apologizing to the Japanese-Canadians who were interned during World War two. We said that such a thing should never happen again. One month later, the Japanese were forgotten and we were threatening to treat arab looking people the same way. Sigh
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin
For Mark Miller, this is a winning situation however it turns out.
1
Ask for Information, get information, go public about how easy it was and how FBI etc.. are slipping
2
Ask for information, get questioned, go public about how fascist the FBI etc.. are acting
3
Ask for information, get denied, go public with FOI being overturned by FBI etc...
This is not news, it's a public troll.....
Now if he is denied the right to board an airplane from this point forward and put on one of the terrorist watch lists the government wishes to share with private industry and hence potential employers, then yes, I would see a VERY SERIOUS issue here.
If you'd like to contact the person referenced in this article, and don't mind using IRC to do it, he goes by nickname "mirell" on the IRC server irc.aniverse.com. (You may have to use port 6661 to connect and/or use the alternate hostname irc-2.aniverse.com.) He's frequently hanging out in my channel, #mspencer, on that server.
Yeah, let's all slashdot the person directly! That's so much better than some inanimate server.
As if being under investigation by Big Brother wasn't bad enough... I'd be pretty pissed at you if I were this fellow.
I fully expect that the FOIA will be repealed or severely scaled back within the next few years. It won't happen during an election year but it will happen.
Anthony Papillion
Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
"Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
I probably should....but does anyone remember the Good Times episode where the younger son was doing reasearch on the USSR. The feds started questioning everyone he knew, his father lost his job so on and so forth.
Bring back McCarthy! In so many ways I feel like the Govt is acting like a cornered badger, and I am honestly not sure who is more scared, us or Govt.
If we don't make light of everything, we are just stumbling in the dark - Blank
The feds should never have been visibly involved in something so trivial unless there was an indication of something else.
It seems that without another cause, this would constitute coersion in order to deny access to information which is otherwise not secret. Even if they "approve" the request, there is a chilling effect on other requests. Probably the intent.
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
If you are a terrorist organization and you are wanting to research potential targets for an attack it would stand to reason that, especially in these times, you wouldn't use someone with even a hint of a criminal record or known ties to a terrorist organization. You're going to plant people who are your "upstanding citizens" that can operate under the radar.
Really, when you think about it, college students are excellent recruits. They need money, they tend to be idealists, they tend to be socially liberal, and they tend to be blank slates politically. With all this going for them, they should be at the top of the list as far as "potential terrorists".
Anthony Papillion
Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
"Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
C'mon, asking for his student affiliations? Why he wears long hair?
This is a case of bureaucratic stupidity.
This isn't so difficult to understand. You live in a society, which is trading liberty for security. You give up certain things you would otherwise be free to do (Run rampant and kill people) for the security that no one will do the same thing to you (run rampant and kill you).
I'm not sure why this bogus maxim comes up so frequently. The student made an extremely abnormal request. Was he within his legal right to do so? Of course he was. Did he have a reason, other than to get some hidden info? Nope.
We know this *after the fact*. *After the fact* security is the only type there is: if you're already dead from someone on a murderous rampage (see paragraph one), your forfeitsure of liberty does no good whatsoever. That's why we've got folks like the police, who make sure that these sorts of things can't happen.
I saw Viet Dinh speak at Tufts University (author of the Patriot Act, in case you were wondering), and the ACLU person who was suppposed to be speaking Against him openly said (quote): "Mr. Dinh, I hereby declare you an honorary Civil Libertarian".
While you may have the right to much information, there is a good deal of informaiton that should be protected for the sake of protecting other people. This is a case where the information was given and the motive was questioned. I have difficulty believing anyone finds anything wrong with that.
Given that certain folks in the govt. consider the ACLU and the NOW as the reason the Almighty's shield of protection was lowered and allowed 911 to occur, I'm not surprised the question came up.
(None of them ever consider that the Almighty's shield was lowered because of the 2000 *cough* election).
Nothing like having the anti-christ running the Justice department.
Yes, I think I do know a bit about what I think. As for what they should be doing - I think it is safe to say that they would not be visible about a real investigation:
they: "we're the fuzz, come to interrogate ya'"
he: "fckoff"
they: "we think you're a terrorist, why ya' askin' questions?"
he: "'cause i'm gonna do bad stuff!"
If they were really looking at this guy, don't you think they'd be somewhat more more careful about tipping their hand. It's about the unsaid public statement that we will look at you if you ask questions.
--Insert obligatory "In Soviet Russia" line here--
Faith is the very antithesis of reason, injudiciousness a critical component of spiritual devotion. Jon Krakauer
September 11 could have been prevented with the information that was available at the time, before the patriot act or any other recent erosions of civil liberties had taken place. The problem, according to most of the evidence at the inquiry and a lot of analysis and commentary, both official and unofficial, was not that the police/FBI/CIA didn't have the information, but that they were unable to put it together due to cross-institutional barriers and a general lack of cooperation and coordination.
Read Pynchon.
But if all they did was ask and he volentarily answered then not a big deal as far as I'm concerned.
The problem there is that we no longer have any real rights. Now, before you dismiss me for taking some kind of extremist view, think of it this way:
The governemt currently can, at its option, declare you an "enemy combatant", with no due process or judicial review. Then they can detain these "enemy combatants" indefinitely. Hence, if he told them to bugger off when they questioned him, they may see that as being suspicious, and decide he'd make a good Enemy Combatant.
Rights that can be arbitrarily taken away at any time aren't rights at all. They're an illusion. What it boils down to is that you have a right to due process, except when the government says you don't.
they'll watch you for quite a while now, and you'll always be in a database someplace. A "person of interest". Whether or not they'll let you fly won't be answered until you try to board the plane, and even if they don't let you fly, you should check on "refund" status. Heh, try a short cheap trip first as a test!
Dumb question but I'm gonna ask it anyway, I mean, you KNEW you were gonna rattle cages with that request, correct? I don't care one way or the other, why you asked is your business, I don't get a sense from what you have written or are quoted on you were doing more than being curious,perhaps pushing the envelope a tad, but surely you must have thought of the ramifications of it beforehand? Either way, now you know for sure you are dealing with a paranoid government who hires paranoids, and I mean both delusions of grandeur and persecution types. The more you find out about power politics, the more you will find out there are no rules, no limits, no one plays fair, lies are more common than truths, and they are usually always mixed together anyway, and there's no such thing as the constitution or born-with rights. None. Zee-ro. That went buh bye decades ago, but now they are *serious* about it.
Anyway, interesting story,welcome to the being on the lists club, Good Luck, have a good time in yurrpe if you get there!
Repeat after me, "There are no X-Files. It was only a TV show."
It would only take ONE agent a few minutes to make the calls to find out the information they needed (police record, major, classes taken, etc). That one agent could then move on to other, more important activities.
Instead, there are TWO agents talking to this kid.
There are TWO agents wasting their time.
This is fine if there are an unlimited number of agents. But there aren't. Therefore, the agents need to spend their time in the wisest fashion.
Travelling to that kid's dorm, waiting for him to show up and then talking to him does NOT sound like the best usage of their time to me.
Really? Seems like a lot of work. Me, I'd let people believe what they wanted, religion wise, so long as it doesn't affect my bottom line nor my security. People would be more grateful and less likely to rebel. Of course, this would mean I couldn't put the plaque of the ten commandments up, as this would be an endorsement of a particular religion and unfair to the others. Besides, freedom of religion is against the first commandment anyway...i'd hate to post anything so hypocritical in MY kingdom.
I would use licensing systems not to enslave people. but to give the illusion of service. After all, if I have granted them a license to do task X, then I must restrict others who aren't as good at it. Licensing would thusly be a form of reimbursed flattery.
Taxation would not be considered theft, but rather a gift. Payment due for tasks rendered. I would make sure that the more desirable, less expensive of these tasks -- such as publically supported welfare and unemployment -- were quite visible and subject to open debate. That way, nobody would much notice the size of defense budget. Money would be backed by the only thing that HAS any value in a world of industrialization and uneven distribution of material goods: it would be based on energy, coal and oil mostly.
Education systems would be very good, but optional, with plenty of choices for those without education. Since the majority will take the easiest route, there will be less cause for complaint.
As for the propaganda...well, people willingly giving up their income for high profile services such as decent public education they don't use and freedoms they don't exercise will no doubt perform their own propaganda. I would hasten the process by subsidizing the cost of vinyl stickers for trucks that read "these colors don't run," feature crying eagles or Calvin urinating on an A-rab.
Remember: people who believe your bullshit will belive their OWN bullshit even more.
Hey freaks: now you're ju
Well, I live in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. Known for being both a port for alcohol during prohibition and for being one of the final stops on the Underground Railroad (Uncle Tom's Cabin is located just outside of town).
It is well known that tunnels from these times exist beneath our roads, lawns and buildings and it would be quite interesting to find out where they are - Not to go explore or to plan a route of attack, but out of pure curiosity.
I see a need for caution on the part of the authorities, but this is, indeed, overkill.
__________________________
Oh yeah, and there is a local myth(?) that there is still some whiskey down there somewhere.
What I wouldn't give for a shot of Al Capone's finest 80 year old blend.
//i have as many lives as people i know.
This sounds like the kind of crap that went on back in the 60's and 70's that eventually led to the creation of the FOIA in the first place.
As much as I dislike Kerry and the modern Democratic party, if this is the kind of crap we can expect from the Republicans, I can't see how I can vote for them in good conscience. Expect me to vote for a 3rd party candidate in November. What is the world coming to when a brain-dead jesus-freak holy roller and a neo-bolshevik nimrod communist are our choices for who is going to lead this country?
What I found especially disturbing is the fact that they thought his hair was somehow significant. The level of ignorance that displays is really sickening. This isn't the summer of love, lots of guys have long hair and it's no more a political statement than the color of someone's shoes. I used to have hair down to my ass, and I'm a southern boy and a card carrying member of the NRA, hardly an "activist" who is going to blow up something. Well...nothing bigger than a coke bottle anyway.
In a way I almost wish I'd been the one they were picking on just so I'd have the opportunity to tell them to kiss my ass.
Am I the only one who feels we have more to fear from the abusive power of unchecked law enforcement than we ever will from terrorism?
I'd much prefer to limit my concern to those criminals who DON'T have the power of the state backing them up. It's stuff like this that makes me write checks to the NRA and pray it's enough to make a difference. There are times when I'm tempted to send money to the ACLU as well. Its the leftist propaganda that seems to be their driving philosophy that stops me, but if Ashcroft's goons aren't told to sit down and shut up I might just not care anymore and send them money anyway!
Lee
Muslim community leaders warn of backlash from tomorrow morning's terrorist attack.
Despite the use of one letter words (uyou) this is right on the money. The last two generations have really dug this country into a hole and pissed off a lot of people by doing so. Unfortunately, the people affected by this won't kill the parties responsible, they'll just kill people from the next generation (aka me, my peers, and my friends... yay). This generation is far more openminded than the last, but the retards are still playing their power games. I can't wait to see what sort of Iran-Contra shit this administration has been doing while we haven't been looking...
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
If 'radical fundamentalism' was not compatible with western democracy why was the major current threat(mujahadeen/alqaeda) Completely funded by the United States prior to the collapse of the Soviet Union? If radical fundamentalism is so incompatible with western democracy why does the united states harbor so damn many religious christian cults and fanatics which are most definiately radical fundementalists?
By the way, there's a middle ground between isolationism and invading third world countries for oil. Just a little.
GENERATION 26: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
So is anyone watching Mister G. W. Bush and making sure he is ruling the US truthfully?
You would think subversion, lieing and starting groundless wars based on false intelligence was some sort of offence?
Last I heard, there were some kind of commitee set up to do some sort of investigation, but I really haven't heard anything more.
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
Perhaps they could have put it another more friendly way
"In regards to your recent request for information:
Dear sir, Due to recent events it is now routine that persons requesting certain record types are given a short security interview."
instead of
"Get your fucking ass down here you terrorist traitor you should thank god we dont send you to concentration camp X-ray right now!"
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
The conflict with Freedom is highlighted by the question arising from your comment, "Who decides what is 'Normal' and 'Obvious'"?
The catagorization of things into "Normal" or "Obvious" has traditionally been the responsibility of an empanelled Grand Jury. Who determine if the facts of an alleged criminal case require prosecution.
With all the recent (unConstitutional Back Door) Legislation that's gone on recently, the duty of a bunch of your peers is being delegated (unlawfully, btw) to a bunch of Law Enforcement Officers. (and also outsourced to a bunch of Unsworn companies without the same responsibilities and duties of sworn folk, but that's Another Problem.)
Now, in a Free Country, you don't need to justify your actions, or worry about being investigated by the Bundespolizei without committing a crime. That's what Freedom is! We shouldn't be playing such games as "Guess the Intent". Investigations happen AFTER Crimes Occur.
It's crazy to even think about replying "How about an interest in Civil Engineering, or Architecture, or Industrial Design, or maybe he's just a dork who likes looking at Infrastructure?"
I've identified the issue really to be a conflict b/t two groups.
a) Scared People, who believe The Government Can Save Them.
and
b) Confident People, who watch out for Them and Theirs.
No one said there weren't fatal risks associated with living. You may get into a fatal car crash, a fatal fall, or the proverbial "get hit by a bus".
Seems to me, that those saying "We need to DO SOMETHING" should go buy a gun, and be ready to take down a Terrorist, should they need to.
And I'm getting really tired of paying for your Securfare. (as in Welfare)...
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
What I love the most is the hypocracy of the right wingers. It's ok to send people to a foreign country to die for our freedom, but we give all of our freedom here in the US up because a relatively small number of people have been killed by hostile action. Voluntarily giving up your liberties completely negates the sacrifices of our service men/women made in the name of liberty. If we're willing to sacrifice troops for freedom, shouldn't we also be willing to occasionally sacrifice civillians. I know I'd rather die than have every man woman and childs civil rights curtailed to protect me, and the last thing I'd want to come out of my death is fear mongering and totalitarian government.
I am a liberal, and I can't stand Bush, but I can't possibly fathom your stance, (poster or moderator,) which I feel actively encourages terrorism.
For Someone who can't stand bush, you already bought into his fear mongering and propaganda.
Have you ever been to a turkish prison?
This may be the single most short-sighted and ignorant post I have ever seen on Slashdot.
Al Qaeda does not blow shit up for "fun" or because it's "cool." They do it for many reasons, and these reasons are not difficult to comprehend. They attack in protest of America's support of Israel. They despise Israel for both occupying one of their holiest lands (Jerusalem) and for oppressing their brothers (the Palestinians.) Regardless of the political motivations involved in keeping the Palestinians as a stateless people, followers of al Qaeda do consider this a serious issue. Usama bin Laden's biggest stated issue is of American troops in Saudi Arabia, the Muslim holy land. He's said as much time and again.
Of course, the solution is not to give in, because the crimes have already been committed. We have already defiled their holy land, and have already supported Israel, and this will be used as continued justification for their attacks far into the future. There are two main problems, though, in combating terrorists like al Qaeda. The first is that we have no realistic win-win method for dealing with them. If we kill them, they're martyrs, and they only inspire more to join their cause. If we capture them, they don't care if they die or not, so the humiliation of captivity will drive them (more or less) to suicidal acts, and like-minded individuals will see it as further justification for more violence. If we do nothing, they will still seek to destroy us. The second problem is that they are not bound by any "rules of war" we try to observe. Their specialty is asymmetrical warfare. They cannot compete with us on grounds of technology or training, but they absolutely surpass us in the sheer gutsiness and spectacle of their attacks. It is difficult to fight someone who does not share your rules of engagement or care what government you represent. This is a major, major problem that people often fail to understand. Al Qaeda does not simply stand against the USA and our military. They stand against Western civilization itself. They do not want to endure cultural imperialism, and may see violence as the only means to hold it off. This is not as simple as Bush's claim that they "hate freedom." They do not share the same concepts of rights and freedoms as we do, but that does not make them bad people. That they kill civilians to achieve their ends makes them bad people.
Al Qaeda is only the tip of the iceberg as terrorism goes. We will never be able to defeat them or those like them as long as there is a division between Western civilization and the Islamic world. No amount of war will ever unite us, unless we simply kill them all. And if we can't kill them all, maybe it will suffice to conquer and demoralize them. And even that won't work for long.
Check out my world simulator thingy.