Slashdot Mirror
Newsflash: Gourmet Coffees Have Lots Of Caffeine
Evangelion writes "According to the Globe and Mail, gourmet coffees (Starbucks, Second Cup, etc) apparently have
lots more caffeine than their non-gourmet competitors. One jumbo (20-oz) contains an entire day's worth of C8H10N4O2." Remember, for best effect, drink it through the day, not all at once.
Hah! I knew it was true! Conspiracy Brother had it right all along!
Hmmm.
TH-th-th-that's a t-t-t-total load of c-c-c-crap! Stewardess! Another Venti! Now!
if they do this on purpose, so they can hook you then make you come back to more.. Caffeine withdrawls suck, and if the home-made stuff isnt as potent, people are pretty much the slave of starbucks (or have to drink 2x more home-made coffee)...
After only 4 cups of the coffee house stuff (I like my $2.00 bottomless cup) and the entire pot of no effect from foldgers in my cup at home.
"The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
one large at 8 am.
another large at 10
another at 12
another at 2
another at 4
another at 6....
Wasn't April Fools' Day LAST month?
I've got more mod points and GMail invi
I caan atttttessst ttoooo thaaatttt. Juussst goot baaacckkk ffroommm Staarbuccckksss...anddd myy haaandds aaaree shaaakiing......
Like 90% of people are aware of the sky is blue (most of the time),Microsoft still sucks,PearPC is still very impresive,Darl of SCO is a moron,etc... on the real now...who here didn't know coffe had lots of caffine in it?
That's pretty funny that this is actually considered news. Only on slashdot will you find people excited about knowing which coffee has the most caffiene. On a different note; I'll be back from starbucks in a few minutes.
Buckethead
I wonder how many people actually drink straight up coffee at their gourmet coffee shops. It's been my experience here in Seattle (home to Starbucks) that most folks are ordering lattes, caramel machiattos, mochas, etc. than a regular cup o' joe.
-- jchenx
I knew this for years. Most bad coffees use Robusta beans, which have far more caffeine than Arabica beans. In addition, the darker you roast, the less caffeine left in the bean, and incidentally, the more water weight you lose, so cheaper coffee is usually light roasted, resulting in more caffeine.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
The dose of caffeine in a cup of coffee depends on several factors, including the type of bean, the duration of brewing and the amount of grounds used in a coffee machine.
Gourmet coffee shops use about two tablespoons of grounds for every six ounces of coffee made -- about double the amount used at a donut shop or in a home machine.
And I thought they were genetically engineering new beans- no, it's just how a true esspresso machine works....I can believe this- I've got a friend with one of the original Italian machines, and an 8-oz cup of his coffee gives me the shakes (this from a guy who used to get through programming assignments at OIT by dropping a vivarin into a 2 liter bottle of Mountain Dew).
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I know we make jokes on Slashdot about the usefulness of caffeine as a geek stimulant and all-round pick-me-up, but I'm pretty sure it's better to have less caffeine in your coffee as opposed to more.
I'm selling my K5 acct.
There may be a lot of caffeine in a 20oz cup, but for an equal volume gourmet coffee should have less caffeine than the cheap stuff. The reason is that it is pure arabica, while utility grade coffee contains large amounts of robusta beans. Robustas have a lot more caffeine than arabicas. That assumes, of course, that the cheap coffee is not also brewed weaker than it should be.
Buy a coffee roaster and green beans in bulk from Sweetmarias (I have no connection with them other than as a satisfied customer), and then buy a good espresso machine like the Rancilio Silvia, then enjoy the best damn espresso drinks in life for less than $.50 cents a shot. And who the fuck is worried about caffeine overdosing anyway? If you're heart doesn't palpitate, you haven't had enough!
Ermm... I guess with too much caffeine, you won't get the grammer right on the first time too!
Yet, scientists are far from unanimous on the health impacts of coffee, and caffeine in particular.
Research has shown that caffeine -- a bitter white substance found in many plants -- can cause spikes in blood pressure, and contribute to osteoporosis by depleting the bones of calcium.
But there is also evidence that coffee drinkers are less likely to develop serious health conditions, including diabetes and Parkinson's disease.
The article seemed to indicate that because they use 2 tbsp coffee per cup brewed, you end up with more caffeine than other coffee. Is that all there is to it? "GOURMET COFFEE USES MORE COFFEE AND IS THEREFORE STRONGER." Well, duh. Insert $obligatory_canadian_intelligence_insult.
I thought perhaps there was some conspiracy where they were doping coffee with extra caffeine or something.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning, It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
We have a locally owned cafe that roasts their own coffee. Their "House Blend" (mostly South American beans) has added caffine, this is advertised as a positive thing. It sells quite well. I'm a African coffee person myself, so it's never appealed to me.
Burn Hollywood Burn
Gourmet Coffee? Starbucks!?
What is wrong with you?
(and are you really surprised that a business that aims to have a store on every street corner in the world (according to the CEO) and doesn't mind achieving that by forcing existing stores out of business would learn something from the tobacco industry?)
Someone just dared to call Starbucks a gourmet coffee. Stay in your seats, the coffee nazis will be arriving in 3...2...1...
That's quite odd, as gourmet coffees are typically arabica, which tends to have less caffeine than robusta. Robusta also tends to be much cheaper than arabica. Most generic, commercial, cheap coffees have a bit of robusta in the blend to give them that extra kick. My expectation would be that cheap coffees contained more caffeine.
However, with all the varieties of arabica coffee available and the various extents to which they are roasted, caffeine content can vary a fair amount from coffee to coffee. Lighter roasts have more caffeine than darker roasts. This may be the key here, as it's quite common for cheap coffee to be burned/overroasted. Coffees that receive lighter roasts are likely to be of high quality as lighter roasts may give you a better idea of the quality of the coffee, which might serve as a deterrent for poor quality coffee. Cheap coffee lightly roasted doesn't have the burnt flavor to cover up the bad taste.
You know, I can accept a certain status-quo hatred of Seattle-area based MegaCorps like Microsoft, Barnes & Noble, and so on... They are hated, for the most part, because they have money that the haters do not. There are other reasons to be sure, but it all amounts to the fact that they represent The Man, and hating The Man is en vogue.
Why then, do so many die-hard penguins and independant bookstore shoppers insist on supporting Starbucks? If coffee has an archetypical "The Man" figure, who has way too much money, produces shoddy goods, and destroys good quality companies with its monopoly-like tendancies, it is Starbucks. They put great coffee houses out of business, the kind that you may have met some of your best friends at. They use inferior beans, cooked at too high of a temperature, for too short an amount of time, just to increase output. That's right, you're drinking a bean that was treated worse than those poor saps on WB's Superstars.
Why God? Why of all people, do you, "The Man"-hating intellectuals, actually give them your business?
-The Libra
"Please be patient--The future will begin momentarily."
Coffee - a great tasting addictive drug, that's legal and trendy to boot!!! What a great busine$$ to be in. Guranteed repeat customers. If there weren't so many coffee joints already (I live in WA) that's the first business I'd start.
for Fair Trade Certified Coffee
Consider choosing to pay a little extra for your coffee to encourage sustainable agriculture, preserve rainforests and help out the long term social fabric of coffee growers and their families.
"Provided by the management for your protection."
Ok so 300 is the upper limit. But...
Health Canada recommends that adults limit their consumption of caffeine to 400 mg daily -- the equivalent of about four small cups of coffee.
So Canadians think it's ok to drink 33% more than is healthy? And yet, they try not to call it caffine addiction. Interesting.
Every so often I quit coffee, just to do it.
Rather than quit cold, and get the nasty headaches, it's a heck of a lot easier to gradually reduce -- I start with my regular level, and then the next day have a bit more than half as much, and so on for a few days, till it's just a sip.
Or, you can quit cold and get a wicked headache for a day or so...
Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
I drink about 20 Oz of green tea a day and I admit, the caffeine and other teaish goodness is liquid motivation.
It seriously can be rocket fuel and wears off smoother than coffee does.
The tea I use needs to be purchased specially at a Chinese tea store and is not prepackaged. It is White Dragon Pearls. Little rolled balls 1/4 of an inch in diameter with young tea leaves and flowers.
I'll put about 40 balls in a 20 Oz glass Campbells soup jar - or a mason jar and nuke for 3:30 to 4 mins. Then let it sit till it is golden - 10 - 15 mins. Filter the Tea into another 20 Oz glass and sip away. Save the leaves because you can generally brew another batch out it this. This tea does not get bitter and you can sip it all morning and into the afternoon.
The stuff is about 40 bucks a pound but that's about 1/2 to a whole year of tea. A bargain at any price.
And it makes me motivated AND feel good about the world. At least till it wears off. Then it's back to my unibomber style shack and dreams about getting rid of that principal Skinner.
- Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
.... caffeine is one of the four basic food groups.
Remember, for best effect, drink it through the day, not all at once
No, for best effect, drink it all at once, and keep reordering through the day.
Yeah, right. I seem to recall Phillip Morris making a similar argument.
"I'd rather be a lightning rod than a seismometer." -Ken Kesey
Last year, I wrote a summary of several psychological papers that used caffeine in their experiments. It seems there is a "sweet spot" where the level of caffeine has the best affect on alertness. When you drink a cup of coffee, the caffeine level jumps up rapidly and is well above the optimal dose. As the body disposes of the caffeine, there is a brief (30-45 minutes) period where the level is in the optimal range. The best results were not from caffeinated beverages, but from a time-released caffeine capsule. It keeps the levels perfect for hours. I haven't been able to track down which pharmaceutical company manufactures them and where I can buy them. If anyone knows, let me know!
Drink coffee - do stupid things faster!
The ultimate goal of science is to unify all forces of nature to a single law that can be silk-screened onto a T-shirt.
I can see it coming. Someone crying, "The coffee industry misled the public about coffee's addictive properties and increased the caffeine dosage to secure market share in spite of well known health risks."
And something equivalent of the Tobacco industry lawsuits...
---------
This space for rent. Call 1-800-SIGADVT to place your ad.
You can always go to the m'f'ing Stop And Go and get your weaker coffee, you know, nobody is twisting your arm.
I'm a recovered caffeine addict (chemical dependency) about 7 years clear. If you really want to torch yourself, don't waste your time at Starbucks or fiddling with an espresso machine. Get a French Press, one that makes a full litre. Buy the darkest, oiliest beans you can lay your hands one, grind them by hand and dump about an 1.5 inches (normal would be about 0.5 inches) into the bottom and pour in boiling hot water. Stir a couple minutes. Chug a mug then dump the rest into your jumbo travel mug. It'll keep you lit for at least 18 hours of work.
I started out drinking coffee for a slight pick up and because I loved the flavor and aroma from a french press made espresso. After two years I found I could go through a pound of seriously strong stuff in a week and went through detox on weekends, only to start again on Mondays. I knew there was a problem when I took my first vacation in 18 months and realized what was happening. I left the job and only drink a little now and then, but _never_ to get work done, ever again. When someone finds they can exploit you, you will be exploited to your own expense. Like with alcohol, drink wisely.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
remember now, we're not talking about Guinness here, we're talking about the nasty stuff that Starbucks et al serves
And the muscular cyborg German dudes dance with sexy French Canadians
Having a serious 10 year caffeine problem, on the order of 12 to 16 shots of espresso a day, I developed an "allergy" to caffeine which in turn caused Generalized Anxiety Disorder.
After a battery of tests, I was told that my intake of caffeine was causing excess adrenaline production, hence a constant state of anxiety.
Now I take three klonopin a day just to feel normal.
I still drink coffee though, the decaf variety, but every once in awhile the idiot at the coffee shop fucks it up and gives me a caffeinated beverage. Suffice to say, it can be a day wrecker. Dizziness, fainting sensations and general physical sensations of imbalance.
No fun.
Is there a legal limit for caffeine content?
The answer to that is it depends on the country. A few examples of laws related to caffeine content for food and drinks include the following:
In the United States there is a limit of 6mg of caffeine per liquid ounce in beverages. There is also a limit of 200mg in pills such as Vivrin.
From, article, a 20oz coffee has 400 mg of caffeine, or 20 mg/oz - so would it be illegal for Starbucks to sell that same coffee in the States?
Who knows, maybe the coffee FAQ is wrong...but it was on the internet so it must be true!
Here is a list of the amount of caffeine in drinks. You'll notice 2-ounces of esspresso has almost 2x the caffeine as a coke. Most people I know get a double shot when they drink at starbucks, so you do the math :)
Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
...
"There are certain advantages to caffeine but, after 300 milligrams [daily intake], you start getting into health problems," Dr. Marcone said.
...
Problems arise, he said, when people cut back. "You develop headaches, you are irritable, you seek caffeine to relieve those adverse effects," Dr. El Sohemy said.
...
Health Canada recommends that adults limit their consumption of caffeine to 400 mg daily -- the equivalent of about four small cups of coffee. The health regulator says that because of its diuretic and stimulant properties coffee can cause insomnia, headaches, irritability and nervousness.
Okay, as a physician and a caffeine user I just have to comment. I have no idea where they came up with their 400 mg/day cutoff, but it wasn't from any published data I've seen. Public health nannies have been looking for something bad about caffeine for decades. From "It'll stunt your growth" to "it'll rot your bones" they keep looking for some reason why we shouldn't drink coffee.
The facts, unfortunately, are quite contrary. Caffeine is a drug, albeit a very benign one. Yes, you can overdose on coffee. A truly unpleasant experience, but one that is quite survivable (in large part because coffee doesn't carry very much caffeine compared to the dangerous dosing). You can overdose on No-Doz too, and that actually is more dangerous because you'll get more in before you start feeling it. Neither, however, is seen very often in actual emergency practice (other ingestants, like alcohol or Tylenol, are MUCH more dangerous in moderate overdose).
Caffeine increases alertness and learning. It's been reliably shown to improve test scores (especially for those of us who can't think without it). Interestingly, large public-health studies have correlated a high caffeine intake with decreased gallstones and with a markedly decreased incidence of type II diabetes, although I'm not fool enough to call it causality when I only have correlation.
And that's it. No increased cancer risk (they checked). No increased hypertension (they checked). No increased risk of coronary artery disease (they checked). No increased risk of psychiatric disease (well, okay, I didn't actually read that one, but most of us in THIS forum came by our psychopathology in other ways anyway).
Doctors are not the world's best source of public health information. They live lifestyles that make programmers look positively healthy (I know - I do both professionally). Still, doctors don't smoke any more (seriously - it's down to a few percent) and they don't drink to excess the way they used to. Drug use is relatively uncommon (although not unheard-of, unfortunately) and seriously frowned upon. But caffeine is ubiquitous in the hospitals and clinics, and there's a good reason. Compared to the stress of getting through the day without it, most of my colleagues share my basic view, which is that there are few Good Things in this world, but coffee is definitely one of them.
Not all at once? Drink the coffee throughout the day?
;-)
NO! I LIKE feeling high on caffeine!!
I mention in general because espresso is more uniform in their bean selection (arabica), roast (dark), grind (fine) and method of extraction (less tha 20-25 seconds @ 8-10 bars of pressure). Compared to drip coffee which can be prepared in a variety of ways i.e bean (arabica or robusta), roast (light, medium, dark), grind (coarse to medium), and methods (ideal way is 4 minutes in french press but drip machines are inconsistent and some use metal filters whereas some use paper filters which absorbs the natural coffee oil/flavor, etc).
Anyway, back to my point. Espresso generally has 80 mg per serving (2 oz = doppio) than drip coffee which has 160 mg (could vary from 120-240) per 16 oz. serving.
And what is thing about Starbucks coffee being over-roasted and Cook's Illustrated say so? Roast, much like one's taste in color, music, etc, is entirely personal. You would not start wearing belts with big buckles just because Carson Kressley of Queer Eye for Straight Eye say so, do you?
Coffee Geek is a great resource for information. Here too: http://www.ynhh.org/online/nutrition/advisor/caffe ine.html
US "gourmet" coffee = normal coffee in the rest of the world.
US "regular" (aka "brewed") coffee = undrinkable bat's piss.
Of course it has more caffeine, that's what it's for...
Possibly True Story, with names changed to protect the guilty:
So a certain anonymous individual went into a Starbuck's one morning last year, a bit cranky because he had to be up earlier than usual. He spoke to the individual at the cash register...
Anon.: I'd like a medium chai, please.
Register Person: Do you mean tall or grande?
Anon.: I mean medium.
Register Person: We don't sell a size called medium.
Anon.: "Medium" is a description, not a name. You sell three sizes. I'd like the one in the middle.
Register Person: We call that size "grande."
Anon.: Right.
Register Person: So what is it you'd like?
Anon.: I'd like a medium chai, please.
Register Person: You mean a "grande."
Anon.: Haven't we already been through this?
Register Person: I just would like to be certain.
Anon.: You can be certain I'm not going to use your ridiculous trademarked name, when a descriptive adjective completely connotes my intent.
Register Person: It's not a ridiculous name -- it's Italian!
Anon.: Yes, and "chai" is either Chinese or Sanskrit. What's that got to do with it? The word I want in English is "medium."
Register Person: Dude, what have you got against Italians?
Anon.: Nothing. Well, perhaps they bear some responsibility for Madonna, but I think she's actually from New York.
Register Person: Bay City, Michigan, actually. That'll be $3.50.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
www.fogbound.net
First, Biological Science twenty years ago warned of the dangers of Caffeine and now are discovering those findings were either falseified or flat out, due to their lack of "science", dead wrong.
Secondly, ever hear of Green Tea part of the day and Coffee another part of the day? I don't get headaches from coffee withdrawals.
Thirdly, how many of you drink over 1 US Gallon of water per day? I do. Believe me it sure dilutes the potency of the Caffeine. Here is a hint: If you suddenly feel warm and clammy, go pound 32 ounces of H2O.
Coffee is supposed to 'outgas' (blow off CO2 that's a result of the endothermic reaction of roasting) for 4 to 24 hours after roasting, and most serious coffee tasters would say that its peak of flavor is 18-72 hours after roasting. I second the reference to Sweet Maria's (http://www.sweetmarias.com) for some good information, as well as a great source of green beans and home roasting supplies.
There are many sources that do in fact prove that beans prepared for use in espresso drinks contain less caffeine than cheaper beans.
Also, you are correct that the dark-roast process will burn off some of the caffeine found in these beans.
And, yes, when it comes down to it, ounce by ounce, "regular" coffee has more caffeine in it than espresso roasted coffee. However, we are all missing something very important here. This is BEFORE the coffee is brewed!
When brewing an 8oz cup of coffee, you use about 1oz of ground "regular" coffee. When brewing a 1oz shot of espresso, you use about 1oz of ground "espresso" coffee.
Yes, the GROUNDS have more caffeine, but a single shot of espresso still has more caffeine in it than one 8oz cup of coffee!
Sig.i>
I love coffee. I especially love this one Latin brand I buy, but to add something relevent to the discussion:
Awhile back there was an article that explained an Italian researchers findings: That coffee could actually be good for you, perhaps even better than green tea. Some benefits are that coffee could prevent diabetes and regulate blood sugar, which is a plus considering my great grandmother had diabetes. Coffee may actually help children too, it's antioxidants and natural caffiene could potentially reduce the risk of some diseases, help them in school, and even prevent depression. Probably the most important of it's benefits is that it could prevent some types of cancer and degenerative brain diseases, two big killers in the US. that it could also
Coffee's no longer as dangerous as it used to be now, huh? I've heard everything about coffee: It makes you MORE tired, it stunts a childs growth, it makes men impotent, even that it could CAUSE some types of cancer. FUD.
-Xeon
Real programmers can write assembly code in any language. -- Larry Wall
...dark. Some people like bacon that has been fried to a crisp, some people like to purposely burn their marshmallows over the campfire. Some people like the dark meat from the Thanksgiving turkey. Obviously it is a matter of personal taste.
If "Cook's Illustrated" used words like 'so burned' to write off every variety of the world's most successful coffee franchise then I suspect that using sources who were in the business may have compromised the objectivity of the article.
This person has obviously never drank coffee in the United States. American coffee, when not served too weak, usually tastes like battery acid (or, in culinary terms, "robusta," apparently.)
I had to realize the article was from a Canadian paper before I could understand why they were making such a big deal over gas station and donut shop coffee being weaker. In America, that is not only the norm, it barely rates above "hot water that somebody has dipped a dirty rag in."
People, American coffee sucks. I never knew this until I lived in Germany, where the coffee you buy in your supermarket is incredibly superior for the same price as American store-bought coffee. I had to defend American coffee to my German friends because I had no idea what they meant by our coffee being weak.
Heck, here in Japan, they sell coffee in "regular" and "American" styles, where "American" is used synonomously with "weak." I've even had the waitress at a restaurant, unprompted, apologize to me that the only coffee they have to offer is American.
"Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
Who tried to parse "C8H10N4O2" in 1337-speak?
I discovered the cold brewing technique a few years ago and I would *never* turn back.
here's the basic setup:
1.) grind up a pound or so of your favorite bean
2.) pour all of the grounds in a drainable filter-lined container for 24-48 hours (to taste, basically), then put the container in the fridge
3.)drain the resulting filtered concentrate into a bottle
4.)add an ounce or so to a cup of hot water
The idea is that none of the nasty oils are extracted from the beans because of the low temperature of the brewing environment. This makes the coffee much more smooth. You don't have to drink it hot either. Cold is good too. Also, you have a lot of flexibility in terms of strength.
One place to get a setup is www.filtron.com, (I am in no way affiliated with them.) There may be other retailers for cold brewing products, but I've never looked into it. I'm sure you could make your own setup too.
Cold brewing changed me. Now I look at people drinking traditionally brewed coffee and think to myself, "Those savages!".
All you need to do is drink another coffee every hour and a half from wake to sleep and you can code forever
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
I'm not a huge fan of Starbucks, except to defend it (or them, to UK readers) against kneejerking knee-jerkers' jerking knees ;)
;) (Around Seattle, a lot more have pay-for WiFi, but that's better than nothing, when you need a connection.)
... for now. But just you wait -- we're going to be the next Starbucks! Avoid that corporate exploiter Starbucks ... oh.]
However, the perception that Starbucks has "driven out local coffee houses with inferior, burnt-tasting coffee" is at least mostly baloney. (In this, to be clear, I am agreeing with the parent poster, just strenuously enough to say more than "me too!")
Starbucks (and now other notable Evil Chains) have probably done more to increase coffee appreciation than any other single factor. When I was younger, there *was* no established coffee scene; Yes, there was a restaurant (semi-greasy spoon) called The White Coffee Pot, Jr. in my childhood small town (now part of an obscure and probably defunct chain, I think), but there was no source of sit-and-read-a-paper coffee of any quality worth coming back to for the coffee.
Starbucks coffee itself may not be worth much snobbery, but realize that the culture of coffee snobbery in the U.S. (nascent, or at best adolescent) certainly owes a lot of Starbucks, with its network (cells?) of consistently OK coffee outlets throughout the country. It's hip to be above Starbucks -- a few years ago, Starbucks was something to aspire to (strong, rich coffee served in comfy surroundings); since the chain is now successful and ubiquitous, it's hard to maintain aspirational status when you're a much-mocked franchise commodity.
So Starbucks, while it isn't exactly dying on the vine, has a) made people think about coffee and b) -- or maybe this should be a', but that makes for an ugly list -- made for a much better environment for hipper coffee bars to inhabit. There may be some coffee bars that Starbucks has driven out of business -- no doubt. But there are also a lot that Starbucks has caused to spring up, or to spruce themselves up. And like the parent poster says, some of them have free WiFi
[Subliminal message: Avoid that corporate exploiter Starbucks, that cheap mangler of souls and exploiter of little girls! Come over to Tim's Javanation, which uses exclusively fair-trade coffee beans processed by exotic but happy parrots, steam pressed in a brick oven. We're still working on the franchise bit and have only this hired clown to exploit
People born before 1980 may remember when the Gap's clothes were *cool* among a huge chunk of the population, mostly the population under 20; now they're pleasant enough, but unremarkable. Unhip, mostly, or at least ahip. ("I'm not a hipster; I'm an ahipster.") Shopping at the Gap is an essentially conventional, socially conservative act (and hey -- The Big Shirt!). In 1985, the Gap was not a place many parents would shop for themselves, only for their kids. Not so now. Extended metaphor over.
timothy
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5