Native American Wireless ISP Launched

babynerd writes "On Tuesday June 1st the Coeur dAlene tribe unveiled the Turbocharged Broadband Geek Project. The scheme, organized by project head Valerie Fast Horse and funded by a $2.8 million dollar grant from the USDA Rural Utilities Service and a 15% in kind match from the tribe itself, will help build a community technology center (CTC) with 40 computers, and a wireless broadband ISP that will provide high-speed wireless access to anyone living on and near the reservation at a price comparable to that of any other DSL or Cable Internet providers - there's currently no broadband Internet access of any kind available."

Comments

what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[garcia]

My biggest complaint about this is that the non-natives are funding this venture through the USDA Rural Utilities Service... Why doesn't their own tribe fund this effort? I have a feeling that they making more than enough money there to foot the $2.8 million bill themselves. Isn't that what those things are on reservations for? To build better Native American communities?

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[themaddone]

Oh, gee, you know, trivial things like roads and schools, stuff the Gov't doesn't really fund.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[FreeLinux]

Why doesn't their own tribe fund this effort?

Because the tribe, as are most casino operators, are good business men. They know a good investment when they see one and they know how to take advantage of an opportunity to make more money.

Looking at it from a business perspective, it isn't very attractive at all. However, looking at it from the perspective of using someone else's money to provide yourselve's with services is quite attractive. Hence, the casino avoids such investments and the tribe benefits. It's sort of the same way that government grants support crappy research projects that the private sector wouldn't touch.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Brandybuck]

If they're anything like the Indian tribes in California, they're simply spending too much money bribing politicians to have anything left for useful stuff.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh so you are claiming that they spend ALL their money on other infastructure and are non-profit thus they don't have the 2.8 million for this venture.

I can't speak for this particular reservation but the ones I have seen in WI and MN certainly are not helping build roads and taking care of their people as well as you infer that they are.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Saxton]

Have you ever driven through a Native American reservation? If we're compensating them, where did we go wrong? Seems like we sent some people into the top 5% tax bracket and left the rest of the tribes in the lowest levels of poverty. Not as nasty as killing their ancestors and forcing them into the worst parts of the country, but it's still pretty bad.

-Aaron

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[The One and Only]

Given that they're living under a Soviet-style planned economy, they aren't free to shape their own lives.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[TheGavster]

At least in Connecticut, the state pays for the roads, and the neighboring towns cover the schools and the extra police to keep their out-of-control gangster children from killing people (they actually beat someone nearly to death outside a school, and assaulted a police officer on the grounds of a school). The millions that they roll in each day pretty much go to the weekly pair of hundred-dollar Nikes for the aforementioned kids, and of course the large number of congresspersons that it takes to keep such an operation tax free.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[mstanisl]

I am so incredibly sorry that you, someone completely unaffected by this instance in every possible way -- is angry at the correct allocation of funding. Perhaps you should do a little more research into a tribe such as the Coeur d'Alene before you start getting 'angry' about non-native funding and making pot-shots about their usage of casions to provide money for their lives. No, they are not on the reservations to build better communities. If you new a single thing about ACTUAL native american culture, you would understand that the Native American commumities as they stand are mostly in shambles. And yes, it is all of our fault from past instances. (Need I jump into Pratt and Carlisle, PA?) Please don't get all upity about people funding projects which actually enrich the culture (without forcing it) -- I am always watching for such acts to occur... as does my former Native American studies teacher loves in college.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Vellmont]

Who's We?, and why isn't "They" part of "We". I was strangely under the impression that so called "native americans" were citizens of this country and have the right to vote.

I also don't recall killing anyones ancestors, and I don't know anyone who did. This "we" and "they" crap is missleading. There's no we, and there's no they.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[irokitt]

I live within driving distance of about 4 reservations, 3 of which have casinos. 2 of those are less than 10 minutes from me.

By and large, those two casinos send most of their money to out-of-state banks that fronted the money to build the casinos in the first place (and those banks are connected to Vegas). That will taper down once the casinos have paid most of the debt off. Some of the money gets sent to the state in the form of "taxes" (that's right, in order to have a casino the tribes do pay the state money). The rest gets split up amongst the reservation, tribal members, and employees (not all of whom are tribe members).

In my community, the nearby casinos have paid millions of dollars (about 4 million total) to widen roads and improve the traffic situation-things which have been needed for a long time (a decade and a half) but didn't start to happen until casinos were built and the money became available. Both nearby reservations are undergoing environmental cleanup, since years of mis-management have made them polluted, dangerous places to live. Schools desperately needing rebuilding have been rebuilt.

There are a lot of things that are bad about the casinos. I personally don't like to gamble and blame the casinos for the surge in DUI activity that I've seen around here. But at least here, where I am, some of that money is being very well spent and the tribes, who were historically shown the finger by both state and local governments, are worlds removed from the state they were in just a decade ago.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[The One and Only]

They can leave the reservation,

Many have, my ancestors included. Others are trapped by economic circumstances. Still other don't want their culture to die.

or try to organize a better economic structure for their tribes. No one's forcing them to run things that way.

Ah, another ignorant AC. Actually, the Bureau of Indian Affairs pretty much requires a planned economy for the tribes. A couple of tribes have gotten permission from the BIA to have a freer economy, and they have succeeded. But in general, the vast majority of tribes in this country are forced to have 5 year economic plans by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[jrl]

But you can't have it both ways.

I argue for the right of the "sovereign nations" in California to not pay taxes on their gambling enterprises. This is mostly because of the agreements we've made with the tribes in the past.

However, based on the doublestandard and greed I am seeing by those who run the casino's I'm changing my tune. You can't argue for receiving money from taxes and not pay taxes. If you want the freedom that comes with being a sovereign nation, you get the responsibility too.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Anonymous Coward]

Then don't be a soverign nation. The tribes should not have the best of both worlds. They should not be considered under a rural fund out of American tax monies when they are their own nation.

Can't have your cake and eat it too.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[dustinbarbour]

I agree! It has been how long since the evil white man destroyed their way of life? I for one, respect the fact that they lived here prior to the American expansion, but modern native americans need to get with the times and realize that their way of life is freakin' dead. As such, they need to quit holding to these reservations and join the real world. If some poor Vietnamese kid can come to America and be a millionaire in a decade, natives can do the same thing. I'm getting tired of all the handouts and special treatment. They shop in stores jsut like me.. not kill their food like they used to. And even then, I'm tired of this noble savage image that they've taken advantage of. I mean, when their ancestors moved into this continent they caused the extinction of numerous large mammals (mastadons and such are the msot well-known). Sure, they didn't have guns, but once white man brought 'em from Europe, the natives were all about using them to slaughter each other. They are no more noble than any other race of human.

Back to the point, though. Get with the times folks and quit depending on government handouts. Better yet, America.. take away the nipple everyone is suckling on!

Here comes the -1 Troll!

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Trailwalker]

For some actual information: Tribal Website

May 28, 2004- Leaders of the Coeur d'Alene Tribe and invited guests will celebrate on June 1, 2004, the groundbreaking for the Tribe's state-of-the-art Community Technology Center in Plummer, Idaho.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sovereign", eh? Methinks there's more to sovereign than not paying taxes. I'd say if tribes started surface-to-air missile testing, we'd see a great example of exactly how sovereign they are. If not paying taxes is all it takes to be sovereign, most corporations in the US are sovereign nations too!

"Sovereign", like so many words in treaties between the US and native nations, is just a word. It's a conciliatory point of pride that allows native nations to believe they run their own affairs at any significant level, while allowing the US to feel like they have absolved themselves for their past crimes.

Pretty much everything surrounding the politics between tribes and the US is BS. It's a mixture of pissing contests and throwing bones for political points. The rez is just another ghetto. Casinos can stimulate economies in ghettos too (see south Chicago). Businesses get tax breaks to operate in economically depressed areas all the time. There's nothing new here.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[KANEKEA]

Ya!!! You tell em garcia (6573) Next thing you know they will try to steal our land, kill our livestock, destroy our natural resources, and then (after their best efforts at genocide fail) they will have the audacity to put us in concentration camps (euphemistically called "reservations") and relegate us to the scrap heap of humanity. Good think'n!

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[dustinbarbour]

How about they freakin' tell the government to get out of their lives? Fuck the BIA. Leave the reservation. It's not going to be roses, but it can be done if you have even a modicum of ambition and the drive to chase what you want. I'm sure no native WANTS to be subject to the federal government. And about the culture.. you can honor it all you want (every other minority does it) and still live in the modern world. The native culture is effectively dead. That's what happens with evolution. Get over it.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[ksheff]

Based on the Reservations that I know of in SD, the casino revenue is dispersed to tribal members and each one does it differently. In the early 90s, one tribe was giving away $1000/month to every adult member and $250/month to every kid. But they had to live inside a particular county, and that upset those that were still members, but didn't live within the county. Building roads and schools was still a function of the state and Feds, respectively.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[dustinbarbour]

they can leave the reservation if they so desired. it's not my fault that they don't. perhaps they're content to live in squalor.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[ePhil_One]

I also don't recall killing anyones ancestors, and I don't know anyone who did.

And yet you are directly benefiting from those who did. If you are not directly benefiting from those who did, you are not a US Citizen nor living in the United States, and hence the "we" isn't really inclusive of you. And as far as "THEY" go, while I'm not sure of the reservations current status, historically Indian nations on reservations were viewed as non-citizens, that were not due the rights and protections of US Citizens; how else could the US military be massacring hundreds without massive outcry and inflicting forced marches as late as 1890? Indian Reservations were still being established less than 90 years ago. I also believe that this separation is actually the basis for allowing Indians to build casinos on their "reservation", because they exist outside the scope of the State laws.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[general_re]

Oh, gee, you know, trivial things like roads and schools, stuff the Gov't doesn't really fund.

Riiiight. And if you pull the other one, it plays a little tune for you. Funny how they could afford $3 million for new slot machines all by themselves. Or how they can afford a $15 million hotel expansion all by themselves. Or how they could afford a $32 million casino expansion to add a sporting arena and 18-hole golf course all by themselves.

No, I think it's tolerably obvious that they can also afford to pay for their own wireless network all by themselves. I think it's also tolerably obvious where their spending priorities lie - why buy wireless for yourself when Uncle Sucker will step up to the plate? Who needs wireless when we've got empty floor space where we can squeeze in more slots?

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[lakeland]

In case you didn't notice, quite a high percentage of the US's population has arrived in the last 90 years. Are these third generation immigrants 'we' or 'they'?

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Cat_Byte]

I read a magazine article addressing the "trickling down of funds". Basically...it doesn't happen in many of them. The few who get the casinos get all the profit and the others on the reservations are living in poverty. Its sad really and I wish I had an online link to the story. I believe it was in National Geographic. I'm sure there are exceptions to this.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[peacefinder]

My biggest complaint about this is that the non-natives are funding this venture through the USDA Rural Utilities Service... Why doesn't their own tribe fund this effort?

Good point. Let's just give 'em back their land and call it even.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[The One and Only]

Pretty sickening that you have had to live under the occupation by "coalition forces" for so long. I wonder if this is what's in store for the Iraqis. I firmly believe that you should ask th U.N. to tell the American gov't to set aside some nice prime coastal real estate for the North American Indians. And why not not??? They did it for the Israelis. Your claims would be much more valid than their's were.

Well, Canada did it for some of their natives.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Cromac]

I'm not benifiting from it any more than any Native American born in the last 100 years. It's not like there are fences around the reservations keeping them in, they've been free to do as they please for as long or longer than my ancestors have been here.

Exactly how do I benifit and they don't? It's not like I can setup a nearly tax free business, fish as much as I'd like without regard to the laws, hunt when I like regardless of the laws and so on.

Playing the victem card is getting very old and tiresome.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[susano_otter]

The irony is, so far as there are "benefits" to be had, the "native americans" currently living in the U.S. today are also benefiting.

Or would you argue that things like, say, the Internet are awsome for the White Man, but suck for the Red Man?

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Cromac]

I am so incredibly sorry that you, someone completely unaffected by this instance in every possible way -- is angry at the correct allocation of funding.

How do you know he's completely unaffected by this? Where would the money have gone if it wasn't sent to the reservation? Maybe his community would have gotten it and also benifited from the cash.

And yes, it is all of our fault from past instances.

BS it is NOT our fault that they haven't been able to do anything with their lives 4 or 5 generations after the atrocities comitted against their tribes. I didn't do them, my father didn't, his father didn't, his father before that wasn't even in this country. I will not take the blame for something that happened 100 years ago, and the decendents of the victems shouldn't keep whining about how bad they have it because of what happened to their great great grand parents.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[drinkypoo]

It doesn't sound sad to me, it sounds like justice. Why should tribes who put out the effort pay to support tribes who either don't put out the effort to put up casinos, or don't want those evil dens of iniquity on their land?

Then again, why should I pay for internet access for native americans? I can understand tax money going to support them, make their land livable and so on since the US government took it all away to begin with, but it's not like we robbed them of their broadband internet access...

I personally think that native americans' internet access should not take priority over anyone else's. There's plenty of white people out there who can't get reliable telephone service. Let's worry about that before we get all concerned about broadband internet.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[iminplaya]

If we're compensating them, where did we go wrong?

Sometimes the magic works, Sometimes it doesn't. -Old Lodge Skins

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[KANEKEA]

Exactly! With all of its appurtenances to boot.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[ePhil_One]

Doesn't matter when they arrived, they are now living on land that belong to the Native American people. If a friend gives you a stlen car, you are benefiting from that crime, it doesn't matter that you aren't the one that stole car. If you buy a car from someone who's friend stole the car for him, you are stil benefiting from that crime.

If big evil corporation employees slave labor to make your shoes, you are benefiting from that crime. If your immigrant father worked as a piss boy for a tycoon whose father got rich building railroads accross the nation that forced native americans off the railroads right of way, you have benefited from that act. If you eat the bread that is produced from the huge American corn and wheat fields you are benefiting from the abuse the native americans suffered. If your Chinese father wasn't slaughtered at the fans of savage Japanese soldiers during World War II its very likely you benefited by the existance of the United States of America, which had the industrial power it did because of the callous way it forced the native peoples of the land it occupied out of its way.

I'm not suggesting that we return North American to the Native Americans and go home, just pointing out that everybody who is enjoying the freedoms and rights of the United States or has been aided by this nation has benefited by the oppression of the native american people. Unless you have had all your belongs that you couldn't carry 500 miles stolen and forced to live on the least desirable chunk of property the theives could find, you aren't THEY.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[TheAngryArmadillo]

Crap, now I hate myself for having both THEY and WE ancestry. I think I'll go outside and kick my own ass then give my land back to myself.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[fermion]

My biggest complaint is that roads are being built to outlying subarbs and I am paying for them though my taxes. Why don't the poeple who live out there, or the companies that need to have people drive in from the middle of nowhere, pay for the new roads. I don't want the roads. I don't want people who live outside of the city driving into the city all the time. My taxes are too high already. It seems like the developers could foot the millions of dollars a mile cost to build a road. After all, they are the ones that are getting rich of the deal.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[ePhil_One]

I won't deny you that native americans get some benefit from living inside the borders of the United States, but the conditions many were forced to endure for generations has left many in a position that owning computers isn't really an option. The casino thing is a relatively new phenomea, often funded by outside interests that syphon off profits, and lets not forget the nasty social issues that gambling also brings.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[ePhil_One]

Once you give it back to yourself, don't forget to start your Casino!

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[ePhil_One]

I'm not benifiting from it any more than any Native American born in the last 100 years. It's not like there are fences around the reservations keeping them in, they've been free to do as they please for as long or longer than my ancestors have been here.

I don't know how long your ancestors have been here (in the US), but native american tribes weren't allowed to walk back home after being forcibly marched to their new homes on the reservations. Those who tried might get slaughtered, or at the least forced to walk back by the freindly neighborhood calvary, which American History shows had a pretty liberal policy when it came to killing. Judges were settlers, they had no voting rights, and popular fiction often painted them as murderous savages.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Anonymous Coward]

> some nice prime coastal real estate

Prime? How so? Coastal? Yes! Arctic Ocean == 'nice prime coastal real estate'

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[The One and Only]

They're Inuit. It's their homeland.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Guppy06]

Is this before or after we make slavery reparations for slave-built infrastructure that didn't survive the Sherman campaign?

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[zeropointentity]

"why buy wireless for yourself when Uncle Sucker will step up to the plate?" Wouldn't you?

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Merovign]

I vote we take everybody who wants to frame all their relations with other people based on what happened before they were born, and everyone who wants to punish someone else for something their ancestor did, and everyone who wants reparations for events which involve no one who is alive today, and we put them all in a BIIIIG room.

And we give each one of them a grenade.

And we close the door.

And pour concrete over it.

How's that for a solution to the twin problems of overpopulation and regional/racial hatred?

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, so this would be the might-makes-right solution to racial issues, no? I think this one was tried. Unfortunately, the plan was spoiled by those pesky Russians with some tepid help from the fatties over there in America.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Wellmont]

Because the tribe, as are most casino operators, are good business men.
Sorry i've had to learn, for the last 15 years, in school that because the first anglo saxon settlers in America were good business men the entire Native American race has become what it is today. The last thing we need is millions this way millions that way.

Hence, the casino avoids such investments and the tribe benefits.
No no you don't understand, the Casino's are not there to avoid investments into their soverign community. The whole reason that these tribes are doing poorly is because they refuse to become part of America. Their decision is not a bad one, just hypocritical in almost every way. I just watched an entire series on the PBS about how the Indian Nations of California are getting help from UCLA law grads (for free) in legal cases and business ventures. Sorry I just think it's a little redundant to have all this looping, supporting, and "trickery" while they claim to have soverignty and the white man is always putting them down.
I used to go to school in Monterey, at CSUMB (that's on partially government owned land). Late the last year I was there, I was approached by a group of hippy college students with a petition to give up some of the government land (which wasn't used up yet) to the local Indian tribe so they could persue "commercial ventures" on the land. Those fucking kids were talking all about how the white man stripped them of the land and how giving them the land would help them out. Sorry but if they're going to build Casino's and they're NOT GOING TO HELP OUT then I say:
to hell with the Casino's,
to hell with the tribal council,
to hell with the nasty lawyers.
I'd rather go and do charity work setting up networks for these people, I'd rather make sure that the money if this nation is subsidising another CASINO (because it is them who should fund this kind of project) while I get lied to on a daily basis about how "my" ancestors were rutheless murderous pigs who stole these peoples lives.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[csteinle]

Dammit. Once again I wish for a +1 Satire mod. Funny just doesn't quite fit, and I can't mod Funny AND Insightful on the same post.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Mysticalfruit]

Actually, I think their talking about thy dynamic in a single tribe.

Promises that were made that profit derived from the casions would be used to improve the tribe haven't been kept.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Anonymous Coward]

War is hell. You lose the war then you have to accept the consequences, i.e. losing your land.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[Merovign]

Here's your grenade, step through this door please.

And read the post next time, because you were obviously thinking of something other than what I wrote. Or you were using "Racializer" software to translate the page so that it looked like I was making racist statements so you could get your daily adrenaline rush.

Oh, well. The instructions are on the bottom of the boot. Good luck.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[KANEKEA]

Nope..strickly and independant.

Re:what are those mini-Vegas' for?

[KANEKEA]

Is this before or after we make slavery reparations for slave-built infrastructure that didn't survive the Sherman campaign? Reparations is a very interesting concept. You don't even need to go any further back than the 1960's to look for possible acts of deprivation. At any rate, I don't think it's workable. The only thing that is workable is equal access to the American Dream.

Smoke Signals

[Greenisus]

...very slow bandwidth . . . .

Re:Smoke Signals

[Anonymous Coward]

I vote funny for you, but I vote annonymously because I'm a coward...

Re:Smoke Signals

[owlstead]

Yes, but if you tend your fire carefully you can achieve an always on connection. During daytime, that is...

Re:Smoke Signals

[LaForce]

Smoke signals are fine for fixed wireless, but if you want to go mobile you'd be better off if you use this

Re:Smoke Signals

[cynic10508]

Ah, smoke signals may be slow but what about the bandwidth of a horse? Give a rider a terabyte of hard drives and see how long it takes him/her to get there. I call it Pony Xpress 802.11P.

Re:Smoke Signals

[Profane MuthaFucka]

Smoke signals aren't slow. They actually travel at the speed of light, since they are perceived optically. However, the signalling rate is very low, therefore the bandwidth is low. Latency is pretty crappy too. Building a response fire/smoke packet takes some time.

Re:Smoke Signals

[DJStealth]

Except when it rains.

As you can see, weather conditions have always been a factor in wireless connections, right back to the beginning.

Re:Smoke Signals

[puddpunk]

Would bring a new meaning to the term "Rain-fade" i imagine...

Re:Smoke Signals

[Cy Guy]

...very slow bandwidth . . . .

No, but it was an excellent movie, which coincentally took place on the Coeur d'Alene tribe Reservation.

Wi-Fi Power

[cgrayson]

If there's ever a sequel to Smoke Signals:

"Hey Victor! Your mother makes the best wi-fi!"

Seriously - great movie, set on the Coeur d'Alene reservation in present day (well, present day six years ago). You'll laugh, you'll cry, it'll become a part of you.

Re:Wi-Fi Power

[acariquara]

Interesting title... Well, Wi-Fi does have a strong power, if well implemented and they get the protocols right.

I for one saw mini revolutions happenning when communications go wireless. Think "third world", or maybe better, "Developing Nations".

As many of you already know, I live in Brazil and while there are areas with technology comparable to NY/California/etc, the largest area of the country lives behind a chasm of difference and exclusion.

Nevertheless, TV has a large penetration (ugh) here. Think GloboTV (reaches over 99% of the Brazilian Territory). The single most important factor that allows this is, well, the wireless nature of aerial TV signals.

Wireless is not just a trend. I am sure it is the key to provide cultural integration and I am not saying that just to sound pretty... Look what happened to cell phones. You do not have to be in the center of the Amazon rainforest to perceive the benefits of going wireless (and yes, there is GSM coverage in some cities there).

Apart from the recreative side of the 'net, there are important uses for it ranging from the everyday internet banking to emailing or IMing a fellow MD seeking for help with some rare tropical virii. I know, I was there (that's the reason of the nickname Acariquara, it is the name of a particurlarly resilient tree that grows there).

Re:Wi-Fi Power

[thdexter]

Personally I didn't care for the movie much at all. I thought the bit about "magic" was pretty contrived and pretentious, the acting was almost uniformly sub-par, and the comedic relief (e.g. "Frybread Power," "Dances with Salmon") wasn't especially comedic. All of the allegory made me annoyed, rather than inspired.

Re:Wi-Fi Power

[hobbsbutcher]

Rent/Buy/watch Thunderheart with Val Kilmer, Sam Shepard & Graham Greene. Kilmer & Shepard are FBI agents investigating a murder on a Lakota reservation in the Badlands and Greene plays a tribal cop. One of my all-time top-five favorite movies.

$2.8 Million?

[tmasssey]

Doesn't that seem like an awful lot of money for 40-computer technology center and a wireless ISP contained for a community?

That seems like enough for a *heck* of a buildout and, what? 10 years of expenses? How can I get a piece? :)

Re:$2.8 Million?

[Cat_Byte]

I used to work for a company (which will remain nameless) that installed networks for public schools. You wouldn't BELIEVE what they charged. It was way up in the 6 digits just for the cat-5 runs. Then they would have their $15,000 router I was supposed to install with no WAN. I was supposed to "make it blink and serve DHCP or something". Needless to say I quit when I was repeatedly asked to lie for my boss about why they had a million dollars worth of hardware for a grade-school lab. My guess is someone did the same thing to this tribe after they found out how much the grant was. Inflat x% until you use up the whole amount.

Re:$2.8 Million?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Doesn't that seem like an awful lot of money for...

2.8 Mill may seem like a lot of cash to you and me, but realistically, it doesn't buy a lot of IT these days. My guess is that building the facility and purchasing the 40 computers and associated equipment don't actually leave a whole lot for the wireless ISP end of the deal, which itself could consume 2.8 mill, easy. It's sad, but that kind of money is relativly minor for an IT investment of this type.

Re:$2.8 Million?

[ElForesto]

It wouldn't surprise me on that. Contractors have been ripping off government agencies on projects since... well... whenever. Here in the Las Vegas area, the school district has a mandatory furniture replacement policy. Regardless of wear and tear, all the furniture is ripped out every 2 years for new pieces. And yet, somehow, we are told there isn't enough money for schools...

I think a good moral to this story is to keep a watchful eye on government spending, and don't be afraid to speak up.

I just realized this had little to do with the original story, so... I wonder if they're using WiFi or WiMAX?

Re:$2.8 Million?

[taniwha]

err - look at the photos they will answer at least part of your answer ..... back-hoes .... they aren't just buying 40 computers .... they're building a building to put them in ....

Re:$2.8 Million?

[stimpleton]

Cat Byte has encountered a little known fact of life in (community) funded IT work.
A friend of mine works in a funding agency for the government. He has this to say:

"Community based funding schemes create a Land Grab mentality for key stakeholders. We know that the real target for the funding miss out or recieve sub par service. However, the political reality is that it must be seen that:
1) The funding is available.
2) The funding has been distributed
Often the key requirement is that balance sheets and reports show X amount of funding this year.
Post accountibilty is often low due to the target organization".

Now we get to Cat Byte's situation, and one I've been in. We, as IT workers, are often in the front line trenches. We are involved in, and often expose existing(often manual) systems through requirements analysis, systems analysis, and development.
We often expose more than any audit.
What we expose is not pretty, and often embarrasing to managers and stakeholders.
But it is a community based scheme. No one wants to expose faults in the system: from funding eligbilty to post approval accountibilty.
We can often not stomach "sleeping with dogs".
We leave, integrity intact.

Re:$2.8 Million?

[Anonymous Coward]

2.8 Mill may seem like a lot of cash to you and me, but realistically, it doesn't buy a lot of IT these days.

2.8 million? Why don't the indians outsource to ... ummm.... the indians? Stretch your IT dollars!

Re:$2.8 Million?

[chmilar]

Forty PC's, a Linksys, and a few switches should cost about $33,000. Less, if you get some coupons.

Re:$2.8 Million?

[bloosqr]

There was an article in the NYTimes about NEC defrauding the federal E-rate program a few weeks ago. That article is gone but here
is an AP wire article on the same thing. You did the right thing and its possible if you weren't working for NEC something similar will happen to other companies that are doing the same thing. In fact the NY Times article mentioned that congress going to hold hearings on this issue,
so it is something that is being looked into quite seriously.

-bloo

Re:$2.8 Million?

[tmasssey]

I was just involved with a company who built a new office for themselves. 50-so people. They built a reasonably attractive building in a city, not a reservation. I believe it was about 10,000 sq. ft. Total cost? Under $800,000.

So that leaves $2 Million. Are we agreed that you could buy 40 extremely nice PC's for under $50,000? Let's add another $50,000 for a server, switches, printers, etc. $100,000 for the setup of 40 systems? I'd do it in a *heartbeat*.

Now, bandwidth. Let's assume a frac-T3, say, 4Mbit. $50,000 for interface hardware. Maybe $50,000 for UPS's, proxy server, DNS, etc. Monthly costs of what? $6,000 a month for a 4Mbit T3? You could do it with 4 nice, redundant T1's for under $3,000 a month!

Now, wireless. Let's assume that you want to put up 100 access points. And let's say that you pay $1000 per access point. $1k is going to get you a *kick-butt* AP, wouldn't you agree? And 100 AP's? That's some pretty good coverage, right? Cost: $100,000.

OK, so let's total this up:

Building: $800,000
Techology for center: $100,000
Back-end configuration: $100,000
TEN YEARS of bandwidth @$6000/month: under $800,000
100-AP wireless network: $100,000

Total: $1.9 Million

That leaves $900,000 (!).

I know that I would do the entire job (without the building) for $2 Million. I would spend $1 Million to do it, and live off of the interest on the other Million! :)

Re:$2.8 Million?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try submitting that proposal for any serious project and see where it lands you. You left out some critical components, but of course you knew that.

Re:$2.8 Million?

[CAIMLAS]

Can you back that up with at least a little itemizeation? Because I know for sure that I could get a full wireless ISP for a given area + 40 systems for well under $1 million (largely dependent on the area, but yeah, within reason). If people can start up wireless ISPs for a pitance, I see no reason why it would take this much money unless someone's milking the poor SOBs.

Re:$2.8 Million?

[Anonymous Coward]

Sober up already tard ass!

"organized by project head Valerie Fast Horse"

[Anonymous Coward]

Valerie Slow Horse prefers a floppy disk for data transfer...

Re:"organized by project head Valerie Fast Horse"

[21mhz]

I don't know, but an ISP headed by Chief Fast Horse has some positive chime to it.

Re:"organized by project head Valerie Fast Horse"

[angryelephant]

" Valerie Slow Horse prefers a floppy disk for data transfer..."

more like a station wagon full of backup tapes.

Just one more thing for the medicine man...

[Caedar]

Whenever their broadband line goes down, I'm sure that everyone in the village will ask the local shaman to revive their connection with his medicine bag.

Re:Just one more thing for the medicine man...

[Caedar]

What, you people can't spot a joke when you see it? Do I have to add a little smiley or [THAT WAS A JOKE] tag at the end?

Mod: -1 Offtopic

Re:Just one more thing for the medicine man...

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you just need to get a decent sense of humour. That was slightly offensive but more importantly, not remotely funny.

Re:Just one more thing for the medicine man...

[Anonymous Coward]

^ [THAT WAS A MORON]

Maybe they will compete with white men's ISPs

[prostoalex]

I live in Spokane, 15 minute drive from CdA, and hopefully this project, if it succeeds, will bring more wireless into the area.

Right now the greater Spokane area is pretty much monopolized by Qwest's DSL (available some places) and Comcast's cable (available pretty much anywhere else). For a city with 300K plus total population it's a shame.

Re:Maybe they will compete with white men's ISPs

[ElForesto]

We've had a LOT of wireless ISPs come and go in Las Vegas, and I think it proves that low-range 802.11 isn't going to cut it. The cost of deploying so much equipment is staggering, and with excellent service (and superior advertising) from the local cable company plus DSL being offered by the local telco yields very few customers to choose from. It's also fixed to your location; no roaming laptop access for you! Until WiMAX (802.16) is hammered out, I doubt that many wireless ISPs will flourish. The cost of starting the business is just too high.

Re:Maybe they will compete with white men's ISPs

[prostoalex]

This guy totally agrees with you, except for the WiMAX part - he thinks that even WiMAX will commoditize the industry and not allow for startup companies.

Re:Maybe they will compete with white men's ISPs

[Anonymous Coward]

i'd like to know what in the world you mean by "white men's ISPs". is that some sort of racial innuendo towards white people? are you one of those people who constantly retorts that "the white man controls EVERYTHING"? if so, you are an incredibly naive and stupid individual.

Re:Maybe they will compete with white men's ISPs

[supe]

I live in the Spokane area as well. Too far away from any commercial broadband. Spokane should mesh!
As should the CDA tribe, the west plains, and all the rest.

If your fifteen minutes from CDA you are in or close to the valley which has at least two WISp's.

Re:Maybe they will compete with white men's ISPs

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it the "white" or the "men" that bothers you most? If so, please replace by "#FFFFFF" and "person" accordingly.

Re:Maybe they will compete with white men's ISPs

[John Hurliman]

There's a couple long distance wireless providers here, and while all DSL lines are purchased through Qwest you have a huge variety of ISPs to choose from for DSL service. BTW most everything in Spokane, a city with 300K plus population, is a shame.

At least now we can read Slashdot while playing Blackjack!

Re:Maybe they will compete with white men's ISPs

[crapolene]

I live in the city proper of Spokane and work in the City of Spokane Valley. I can get DSL from NewEdge Networks at home for around 60 bucks a month, Qwest doesn't think my line qualifies for DSL so they won't sell me their service.

At work we bought half a T-1 from XO, we use most of it for voice, for data we get basically ISDN speeds. Some parts of the Valley are S.O.L. if they want cheap high speed internet.

Netcraft confirms it....

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad they ain't running Apache... maybe they've had bad experiences in the past?

Re:Netcraft confirms it....

[sulli]

The White Mountain Apache Tribe does run Apache, however.

I'm going to try and buy it

[Anonymous Coward]

For a handful of beads!

Posted Anonymously, because I don't want my tribe to know...

About time.

[Blue Eagle 26]

The old smoke signals had terrible throughput!

Re:About time.

[acariquara]

Yeah, but that was not because of link reliability as much of extra bits that were unneeded. The ancient PoS (Packet-over-Smoke) protocol was *really* a POS.

When SSNeP was introduced the overall performance reached full potential.

Jesus!

[Anonymous Coward]

Smoke signals, ok, flamebait but the parent is *supposed* to be funny.

Remember, this is Slashdot, not exactly PC...

Great...

[Anonymous Coward]

Now homeowners associations can keep Indians from putting antenae on thier tee pees

Real Free Community Wireless Networking

[tomwhore]

Want to see what you can get from donations and volunteer efforts?

http://www.personaltelco.net

2.8 million would be nice to have, do not get me wrong. Given what we are doing for what we have it would mean a heck of a lot of coverage.

Re:Real Free Community Wireless Networking

[harley78]

Thee old gov. could take 2.8 mil. out of the usd$33billion (?) war on drugs.

All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

The monetary grants handed out to native Americans does nothing but promote laziness. I've been on reservations before, and seen what goes on. I've known people on the reservations, and seen the attitudes.

Why in the world do we spend tax dollars to let native Americans surf porn and do email? If the idea was to give them a better quality of life, maybe we should offer them education instead.

Oh, wait! We do! If you're a native American, you're virtually guaranteed a scholarship to go to college. Chances are that you won't pay a single dime out of your pocket to go - IF YOU WANT TO. Those who go rarely stay on the reservation, they go make their way in the world. Those on the reservation are the ones who won't even bother to take a FREE EDUCATION to improve their lives.

How, exactly, is this connectivity to the Internet going to help them?

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

let me guess, you are white ?
its good that American Natives are doing this, makes a change from the white squatters that enslaved them and gave them virus infected blankets

i guess MLK taught you nothing, not suprising really white americans never where the sharpest tools in the box

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[slow train]

All handouts tend to increase laziness. This is the reason why the economies of continental Europe severely lag behind that of the US.

Without incentive to work, people work less. Simple economics there.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[jjjefff]

Maybe the idea here is that by giving them a handout with potentially limitless educational value, we increase the odds that at least a few more of them will be motivated and have the resources to get out there and make it on their own.

I suppose you think fertilizer encourages laziness in plants...

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

uhm Europe now has a bigger GDP and more people than USA
so it is USA that is lagging

The EU as presently constituted has a bigger share of world trade than the USA. That difference has increased with EU enlargement. However, while the US runs an international trade deficit, the EU runs a trade surplus. The fact that the USA now has to negotiate on international trade with the EU as a single entity and can no longer pick off individual countries is a source of irritation in some US quarters.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[mstanisl]

Did you go on these imaginery reservations in your dreams? I found it astounding that you are speaking about the laziness of Native Americans without so much as mentioning the cultural differences between us and them that may keep them on their reservations. More so the reasons of family and loyalty that would rather have them try and provide food for their families then go off to college. But thank you for your insight into a false reality.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Why in the world do we spend tax dollars to let native [sic] Americans surf porn...

and...

If the idea was to give them a better quality of life, maybe we should offer them education instead.

First of all, what makes you think their plan is to use WiFi to surf porn? Is that your primary Internet use other than trolling on Slashdot? In many rural areas (you must be a city dweller), educational opportunities are in fact taken advantage of over the Internet.

As to your other comments, of course they are pure bullshit, too. You seem bitter. Get turned down for the party school of you choice and have to go to Community College instead?

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[wahsapa]

when your 'native american high school' is a half-assed day care facility like the rest of the public schools in the us(native americans are to poor for private k-12 schools) then maybe the 'higher' education complaint becomes a little more apprant that free or not, you have to value education and poor public schools do not teach this. the bases for higher education is lacking on indian reservations. how much easier and faster have you learned things on the net? maybe they wouldnt have the health and welfare statistics they have if reservations were in the middle of cities(ie: l.a. and latios) and not in the middle of nowhere america(with no jobs). lazy is lazy, but they'll kill the shit out of a bear. but seeing as how you TOOK there LAND to BUILD YOUR CITIES and killed them all while doing it might have a little to do with their current situation

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[notchcode]

Grants in and of themselves aren't a solution...but grants directed into something that enriches both the community and the individuals within that community, like, say, an internet-enabled community center, and offering internet service (that the users will still have to PAY to use, by the way)...well, what the heck is wrong with that?

If you object to this, then perhaps you also think that opening up an after-school youth activities program in a predominantly african-american or hispanic urban community?

The values are the same: Bring people together, give individuals something to do other than self-destructive behavior that pervades much (but not all) of the culture of places as diverse as the urban street to the rez....help more people become internet-literate (just as written literacy was so important in the 19th century and visual literacy was so important in the 20th century)...

I could go on. But I won't waste my breath. You're either baiting this thread, or just ignorant. either way, you're entitled to your opinion, even if you're wrong ;)

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[jestered1]

"Why in the world do we spend tax dollars to let native Americans surf porn and do email?"
For the same damn reason we use tax dollors to let every Tom, Dick and Harry surf porn and do email from almost every public library in the U.S.. Fedral grants are handed out $millions at a time to put desktops in public schools or fund a new program at univeristies. Why does a tech grant to a tribe raise your ire any more than them?

Furthermore, how much do you know about tribes' "per-capita" payments, or scholorship programs? They're not simply tax money diverted from your pocket to their account. Many are the result of interest from trust-fund-like accounts, large lawsuit settlements against the gov't and income from tribe run organizations. And before anyone complains about a tribe's right to have those types of funds, realize that they are from treaties that the government signed, or lawsuits where the U.S. justice system found the government in fault.

Anonymous coward, indeed.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[radish]

Severly lag? You need to check some facts. According to wikipedia the US and EU have basically the same GDP. How is that "lag"?

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[igrp]

Hmm, you raise some controversial but nonetheless interesting points.

I am familiar with the CdA / Spokane area so please allow me point out that a lot of people outside the Native American community (not just WA & ID residents; the CdA resort is a also a major tourist attraction) will benifit from this, provided that the people in charge implement this properly (Couer d'Alene is right on the Idaho/Washington State border for those not familiar with the area).

By the way, the Spokane area really isn't "rural" for the most part. Spokane is the second-biggest city in the State of Washington (I believe Tacoma is closing in fast).

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[slow train]

Based on your link, Europe has 1/3 the per capita GDP of the United States. This qualifies as "severely lagging."

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Most Americans Haven't A Clue About the EU
"PA" Most Americans rate their country as doing more to tackle the world's ills than the European Union, but admit to knowing little about the EU, according to a survey published today.

Americans ranked the US above the EU in each of five areas of global policy, according to a poll of 1,000 adults by Gallup.

The survey found that 69% rated the United States highly for its role in fighting terrorism, compared with 41% for the EU.

Washington also received higher rating than Brussels for the growth of the global economy, fighting poverty, keeping world peace and protecting the environment.

However most Americans acknowledged that they didn't know much about the 25 nation European Union, with 77% saying they knew "little or nothing."

The survey asked participants whether they thought the population of the EU was larger, smaller or similar to that of the United States.

Only 20 percent correctly said that the 25-nation EU - with more than 450 million people - is larger than the United States - which has a population of 290 million.

The survey found that Democrats generally had a better view of the EU than Republicans did, and in the areas of promoting peace and protecting the environment Democrats said that the EU was doing a better job than the United States.

Gallup said that result was "due not so much to awarding very high marks to the EU as to giving relatively low marks to their own country - at least at this point in history."

It added: "In the polarised atmosphere of the presidential election year, even Europe has become a partisan issue for the American public." http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3031509

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

i guess maths wasnt a strong point for you

United States $ 10,450,000 2002 est.
European Union (25 states) $ 10,422,348 2002 est.

that was in 2002, in 2004 there was another 14 countries to add to that euro list, keep dreaming

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[owlstead]

Can somebody please mod this rightwing bullshit down? The USA is definately the most powerful force in the world (at least for now). That there is still such poverty in the USA is the biggest shame. You may have a higher income per person (largely due to the dollar) but the living standards in Europe are way higher.

That "free handouts" are the reason for the -assumed- laggin of our economies is far from proven and in my opinion, also incorrect. Live happens upon you, and though you can steer a little, saying that you are in full control is just your imagination. Lets hope for your sake that you won't happen to get into a situation in which you will have to put your hand out.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

well he is called "slow train"

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[thdexter]

Actually, it was only recently that Spokane overtook Tacoma as the second-biggest (population-wise.) It was front-page news in the Idaho-Spokesman Review.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[slow train]

While increasing the total GDP of the European Union, the addition of these countries (Estonia, Latvia, Poland, etc.) undoubtedly decreases their per capita GDP, which is the relevant comparison.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry. You are wrong on most counts in this post. My wife Chippewa and a tribal member. There are no guaranteed scholarships. Some tribes do have scholarships for their tribal members - usually you have to demonstrate financial need. Some of the tribes with big casinos can offer more. There no opportunity on reservations. That is the biggest problem.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[igrp]

Oh, I didn't know that. Always thought Spokane was still second to Seattle. Been a while since I've been to the area (damn, I miss Tim's Cascade Jalapeno Chips -- I'd love to get a hold of some).

Anyway, thanks for pointing this out. I appreciate it.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Can somebody please mod this rightwing bullshit down?

It seems that the people moderating this are right wing Americans. Or maybe, Rush himself.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Without incentive to work, people work less. Simple economics there.

Man... I knew there was a reason we must keep people poor. Without poverty, who will do the work? Who's gonna pick your lettice? Who's gonna make your clothes? I suppose you would prefer a level poverty so extreme, so that you could hire some one to wipe your ass!

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[lwsimon]

NICE - reverse descrimination. My fiance if 1/8th Cherokee, we are 100% eligible to get her a full scholarship to a state school. First in her family to attend, Native American bloodline, and she grew up in a low income home. WE are workign our asses off, pyaing for college AS WE GO. Anyone can do it. If you can't, you'e mkaign an excuse - I could't find a job for 3 months, so you know what i did? I took pictures. I stuffed envelopes. I set up a couple networks. The point is, the money is there for whatever you want if you'd just get up off your lazy ass and find it. Black hair and dark skin doesn't keep you from it, the society of entitlement does. I don't need your money, tyvm, i'll get my own.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

You can get a good education, but who is not concerned about the color of your skin and is willing to give you a good job?

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[nomadic]

Come on, if we follow your crazy ideas we'll end up like the Europeans. Universal healthcare, free higher education, low violent crime rates--if it were up to you all we'd do all day is hang out at cafes and have sex! Is that what you want? HUH? IS IT?!

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

I suppose you think fertilizer encourages laziness in plants...

I'm going to get some miliage out of that one.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[harley78]

2 wrongs do not make a right.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who got turned down from a party school wouldn't be posting on slashdot.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

Saying that funding would be cut off in 5 years would be an even bigger encouragement to get up and do something. People aren't plants. Plants usually have a simple task. Barring any special genetic programming, they'll grow as fast as they can. People do the opposite. Most follow the path of least resistence. If they're being handed everything they need to get by, they're not going to do any more work.

Tell them that support will be cut off in 5 years, and the path of least resistence suddenly becomes taking that scholarship. Or at least, getting a minimum wage job.

Re:All right, this will get me flamed, I'm sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

You see, the problem is there aren't a lot of jobs in Indian Country - something you must not have noticed in your travels. Bringing the new technology to Indian Country can help facilitate new jobs...furthermore and what you will NEVER understand (and is really the must important part here) is the need for Indian people to stay together, in their communities. Sure you say, go off the rez and find a job, that's exactly what our government of years ago tried, in their efforts to anniliate our people. Finally, my sisters are $30,000 in debt and are now teachers in their communities...want free education are you talking about?

/. humor

[wahsapa]

-insert lame indian joke here-

This is really wierd!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm starting to think my history teacher is psychic. Today, we watched Smoke Signals in class and now there is this in the news. Last week, we finished talking about Ronald Reagan, now he died. A while back, we talked about Elia Kazan in the 50's, within a week, he died. Wierd...

I should get him to talk about Bill Gates...

Re:This is really wierd!

[Anonymous Coward]

...or better yet, yourself.

Re:This is really wierd!

[Anonymous Coward]

No! Bush and Cheyney!

Re:This is really wierd!

[Night Goat]

You ought to have your teacher teach you how to spell the word "weird".

How!

[Anonymous Coward]

Pale face come bearing insecure protocol.

doh

[Anonymous Coward]

Never underestimate the bandwidth of a fast horse carrying a big bag of mag-tapes...

(No insult to Native Americans implied, just using the opportunity for a pun)

i smell a jealous white boy

[Anonymous Coward]

you steal their land and then you complain ?
LMFAO
you aint even begun to pay back what you did to them

Re:i smell a jealous white boy

[el-spectre]

Wow, I didn't realize that we had posters that were around in the 1800's. They should really be ashamed of themselves.

The natives got screwed royally. No one denies that. This does not mean that white people are evil for the rest of time. Funny how people decry racism until it fits their needs...

What about north of the lake?

[MycroftMkIV]

This takes care of broadband south of Lake Coeur d'Alene. What about north? Coeur d'Alene and Hayden (where I live) are both north of the lake. Would be nice, but I think this is probably just for the tribe, not nontribals like me.

Mike

Re:What about north of the lake?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean that they don't have broadband at your neighborhood white supremecist compound?

Re:What about north of the lake?

[Anonymous Coward]

This project is intended to benefit non-tribal community members as well as tribal members. You might want to contact the tribe to see if there will be any coverage for your area.

USDA Rural Utilities Service

[Scottm87]

Intresting the history behind this organization... It started as one of the "alphabet soup" programs under Roosevelt during the Great Depression to help provide both employment and electrify the Nation's rural farms. The program was very successful, and established rural "electric cooperatives" that allowed a number of individuals to form their own electric substation at a fraction of the price of the major electric companies. It recieved a lot of flak along with other New Deal projects because it evoked a socialist-like image, and the "red scare" was part of the period. Later, the Rural Electrification project got squished together into the a small piece of the USDA. I wonder if this is the future of the project - if so, it will play a major part at bringing the nation cheap broadband access.

Re:USDA Rural Utilities Service

[Anonymous Coward]

just another damn social program buried thousands of pages deep in some huge appropriations bill.

meanwhile, tax and spend liberals cry "we can't afford a tax cut". what a fucking joke. how about spending on some legitimate priorities first, before complaining that the gov doesn't have enough of our money to operate (currently, they steal roughly 50% of our income).

and on a side note, since these indians are now high tech, i wonder if they will start using tech names like "man with much storage" or "woman with gigabit ethernet"? they really need to update their names to reflect modern times.

Re:USDA Rural Utilities Service

[nomadic]

The sheer success of FDR's programs tends to throw libertarians into fits of impotent rage. That's why its fun to talk about.

Re:USDA Rural Utilities Service

[Anonymous Coward]

Success? That depends on how you measure 'success'. If you're looking at economic impact, FDR's policies lengthened the Great Depression instead of helping end it. He needed the US in WWII to help keep it from going into recession and to save his buddy Stalin's butt. That's why his policies in '41 were meant to agitate Japan.

Now if you define 'success' as getting people dependent on the Federal govt, then, yes. It worked great. The REA was supposed to been dissolved during Reagan's term. Congress wouldn't let it happen. Too many little piggies eating at the Fed trough. The same goes for the Tennessee Valley Authority. I'm sure Californians love knowing that they are subsidising cheap electricity for TVA customers. :)

Darn- nothing about the tech

[Marxist Hacker 42]

I wasnted to know if they had stolen my idea of placing Cell/802.11x antennas inside of totem poles...that would have been interesting given the number of environazis out here in Oregon who do not like to see cell towers in rural areas but might just go for a totem pole.

With thier own ISP...

[haute_sauce]

They can enter into the on-line gambling business ! And look at the advantages: It will not go off shore to Singapore !

No such thing as a "Native American"

[SensitiveMale]

No indigenous humans on the Americas.

Everyone that is here either walked, floated, or flew here.

Re:No such thing as a "Native American"

[brulman]

actually several of us were born here.

Re:No such thing as a "Native American"

[ecloud]

Well, native X'an means "born in X". So I guess I'm a Native American, 'cause I'm not an immigrant. (And my parents were not either, FWIW.) Nobody has any problem with me saying I'm a native Arizonan, or a native of the Phoenix metro area.

Regarding "indigenous", what does that mean exactly? People on most of the continents probably didn't evolve there. Well, they evolved a little, maybe, but they became Homo Sapiens much earlier, and somewhere else. Isn't it just one place in Africa or some such (or maybe the garden of Eden, wherever that is) where Homo Sapiens emerged? So everywhere else, they walked, floated or flew. Anyway I think "indigenous" probably has a narrower definition than "native", and neither word is meant to be so narrow as "having lived there since the dawn of the species" because that would rule out almost everybody in every place.

Re:No such thing as a "Native American"

[Anonymous Coward]

No, he's right.. you were flown in with the stork.

Re:No such thing as a "Native American"

[dustinbarbour]

correct.. though, if we apply the term "native americans" to the decents of the clovis, let's at least stop thinking of them as some sort of noble savage. just ebcause their means at environmental destruction aren't quite as great as modern mans', the idea that they somehow live in harmony with nature is utter bullshit.

Re:No such thing as a "Native American"

[Anonymous Coward]

Although it's quite possible (probably) that Clovis culture does not account for 100% of the people we're talking about (pre-Columbian Americans), nor was Clovis culture nearly as monolithic as all that anyway. The fact is that shit is complicated, and oversimplifications in one direction cannot be corrected by oversimplifications in another. There is evidence of small (some would say insignificant) numbers of Asian, African, and European people migrating to America after the land bridge and prior to 1492. The reason we divide American bloodlines into "native" and "non-native" is historical and political--American changed an incredible amount, forever, in 1492. So to be totally accurate, just say pre-Columbian Americans, and refer to their descendents as the descendents of pre-Columbian Americans. Happy?

The noble savage schtick was invented by the colonists, so don't blame it on natives or even native sympathizers. Bible-overladen Europe wanted to find Eden in America, and they wanted it so hard they superimposed fictional people (Adam & Eve) over real people (the natives).

I'd say natives aren't "noble savages" except that some of them are. About the same percentage of Europeans are also noble savages. Some are just noble. Some are just savages. Some are noble savages. Some are neither.

Saying "all natives are like X" or "natives aren't like X" is two different ways of making the same mistake. There were HUNDREDS of independent nations of people in America prior to 1492. You can make some generalizations about their lack of metallurgical skills, but you CANNOT make generalizations about whether their societies did or did not live in harmony with their respective environments. Some did. Most didn't. Just like everywhere else.

Racial categories don't have a whole hell of a lot of quantifiable importance. But there's a hell of a lot of not-so-quantifiable importance. Everyone know what you're talking about when you say "Native Americans". It doesn't matter whether their ancestors crossed the land bridge, or sailed along the coast of the land bridge, or sailed across the gap where the land bridge once was, or was one of the handful that sailed over from Africa or Europe. They all got screwed in 1492, which is the point.

Re:No such thing as a "Native American"

[Anonymous Coward]

The term 'aboriginal' is okay with me. Not native nor indigenous nor Indian or any stupid John Wayne movie terms. Please and Thank You.

Re:No such thing as a "Native American"

[farmhick]

The term 'aboriginal' is okay with me.

But if 'abnormal' means 'not normal', than wouldn't 'aboriginal' mean 'not original'?

Re:No such thing as a "Native American"

[Anonymous Coward]

Not really. ab can mean a few things. In this case ab means from or of. So think 'from original' or 'of original'.

Cory Doctorow predicted this...

[ElAurian]

...in Eastern Standard Tribe.

SF future-prediction strikes again!

I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is Slashdot going down hill, or does nobody care?

this is the same tribe

[drgroove]

that poet/author Sherman Alexie (ever see 'smoke signals', or read 'the lone ranger and tonto fistfight in heaven'?) is from... i wonder if he had anything to do w/ this, or what his thoughts on it are.

I can just imagine his next story ... "and thomas builds the fire had taken over the computer lab, and was passing out frybreads to all of the children, who before the lab was built would have been out playing basketball"

:)

now they can say...

[Anonymous Coward]

...All your teepee are belong to us.

Re:okay...

[Anonymous Coward]

How?

Out-sourcing Call Centers?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

The parent probably is flamebait, but funny none the less. Given the lack of humor show here in the modding, I should probably keep my mouth shut about the possibility of out-sourcing call centers to them (ducks...)

Re:Out-sourcing Call Centers?

[rsadelle]

I've heard of IP over Avian Carriers and Pigeon Rank, but outsourcing call centers to ducks is new to me.

Coeur d'Alene has an apostrophe

[CoughDropAddict]

The apostrophe isn't a mistake: it's "Coeur d'Alene" (it's French).

I live there, and it's really annoying when web forms try to "correct" it:

Coeur Dalene
Coeur dAlene
No.

Coeur d'Alene (I really meant it).

Re:Coeur d'Alene has an apostrophe

[Nintendork]

You would probably love to live in Quebec.

-Lucas

Re:Coeur d'Alene has an apostrophe

[Rabbanah]

Ditto, you insensitive clods! I'm also from to be in Coeur d'Alene, and have also run in to:
COEUR D ALENE
and the infamous Coeur d\'Alene (that one gets me every time)

Re:Coeur d'Alene has an apostrophe

[Mannerism]

The apostrophe isn't a mistake: it's "Coeur d'Alene" (it's French).

Not that that stops anyone from mangling the pronunciation. "Curdalane" seems to suffer from the same affliction as "Battinruge".

Re:Coeur d'Alene has an apostrophe

[merlin_jim]

The apostrophe isn't a mistake: it's "Coeur d'Alene" (it's French).

I live there, and it's really annoying when web forms try to "correct" it:

Ditto here.

I live in Winston-Salem... you wouldn't believe how many websites I can't shop on because they won't accept an apostrophe in the name, and my bank says it has an apostrophe in it...

Oh and if the name sounds like two cigarette brands with an apostrophe between them, it's actually the opposite. The two cigarette brands are half of this city's name... RJR lives here.

Re:Coeur d'Alene has an apostrophe

[CoughDropAddict]

Perhaps you mean a hyphen (-) (not an apostrophe ('))?

second time's the charm

[sacrilicious]

the Turbocharged Broadband Geek Project. The scheme, organized by project head Valerie Fast Horse

A previous attempt by a different group of native Americans failed to crystallize into an actual broadband offering. That group's spokesman, Eddie Slow Turtle, had no explanation.

The Land of Idaho

[Z4rd0Z]

Idaho...where men are men and the women, well they kind of look like men too.

Re:The Land of Idaho

[Anonymous Coward]

I dunno dude, the women in Moscow are pretty darn hot. For those not in the know Moscow is home to the University of Idaho. Hot college chicks++

Re:The Land of Idaho

[Anonymous Coward]

I second that, Idaho, while the population is small, it has some of the hottest chicks I've seen on the west coast.

FCC rules

[FuryG3]

So what are the rules for indian reservations and tribes according to the FCC? Does the FCC have jurisdiction over such areas?

Re:FCC rules

[NoYes19]

no they don't.

Do it right...

[Tailhook]

Since your actually funded and can, therefore, do better than fabricated pringle-can antenna's and 802.11, I recommend this. Grown-up wireless that works very well. 802.11 is an adaptation of Ethernet to microwave that does not scale. Canopy was created to do what you want to do.

It will transform them in to good consumers

[Anonymous Coward]

The Internet is full of things to want and buy. Exposure thereto will motivate them to spend money, which will motivate them to earn money, which will motivate them to go to school. :)

couer d'lene = nez perce = chief joseph

[wahsapa]

that is all

Tech support...

[jwcorder]

In order for me to continue, I need payment in the form one two beaded necklaces and a beaver pelt. Thank you...

Abusing the status...

[GPLDAN]

There is a systems integration and networking company here in the American West. I won't name their name, since the I'm going to say some pretty strong things...

The guy who owns gets a deep discount from distrubution partners because his is a "native-american" owned business. The company wraps themselves in the iconography and their logo is an animal synonymous with the American Indian.

This guy is ONE-EIGHTH American Indian. I won't even name the tribe. Doesn't matter. This guy is fat, pale white and bald and looks about as American Indian as Tony Soprano. perfect guy to compare him to, as well. Actually, I think Tony is less corrupt.

Nevertheless, he has a huge advantage over his competition. His discount is about 3 to 4 POINTS below a company without that status. Bidding an integration and database project that includes a $100,000 worth of Sun equipment? Going against these guys? Snap $4k off the top, just throw that money away or you WILL be underbid. Looking for an education contract? Good luck.

Want to know what else you are up against? the Tax benefits to a large corporation when they give business to a "Small Business Administration-certified 8(a)" firm. Want to double up the tax breaks? Do it in a HUBzone - Historically Underutilized Business Zone. Does your company need to be in the HUBZone to qualify for the tax break? Not necessarily. Quite a few legal entanglements there, depends what state your corporation is incorporated in.

Isn't about time we closed bullshit loopholes like these? I'm a Democrat and believe that certain inequalities exist and that in certain instances, Affirmative Action and tax incentives for areas make for good business and re-level a playing field that DOES have systematic racism in it. But laws regarding Indians are just being abused. Badly. I have a friend who is actually HALF Sioux. He moved away, but I wanted to start a business with him as an equal partner. 4 points on Cisco, Sun, and a myriad of other gear is big margin in the VAR world.

Re:Abusing the status...

[prostoalex]

The guy who owns gets a deep discount from distrubution partners because his is a "native-american" owned business.

Is that because of some government regulation or is that due to distributor's goodwill? I mean, assuming the distributors themselves grant a discount voluntarily, there's little you can do.

Re:Abusing the status...

[Anonymous Coward]

A company I worked for once developed a little arm of the business essentially running a small datacenter under contract from the government. It employed about a dozen people to run the place, do the programming, maintain the systems. They essentially built this particular function up from scratch.

A couple of years later, the contract was reclassified as an 8a "minority business set-aside". A certain percentage of the contract money has to be spent in this category. (Yes, that's a quota, but don't tell anyone.)

As it happened, the owners of my company were "white". (Italian and Polish no longer count; that's so last century.) So naturally they couldn't bid on the contract. The owners weren't poor. They could afford to start their own company, after all. But they weren't rich, either, and had had to skip a few salary payments a couple of times to make payroll for the rest of the employees.

The winner in question -- everyone knew who it was going to be even before they reclassified the contract, as he had had several contracts swung his way before -- was a local millionaire. But he was black, and therefore qualified. It didn't matter that he charged about 10% more than my company. That's even a feature, since it helps fill up the quota with fewer contracts.

The funniest part was the the staff we had happened to hire. By chance, it happened to be fairly diverse: white, black, Indian, Asian, male, female. Far more diverse than the local population or the usual tech company, though not through any particular plan or virtue in hiring. Just happened to work out so that there was only one White European Male involved. (He was the manager, though, if that makes you feel better about the oppressive nature of the incumbent.) Naturally, they all lost their jobs when the contract was cancelled. They met the staff from the new company for the transition. The new team was all white males, with only one exception.

Just another government victory for equality and fairness brought about by legislation.

Re:Abusing the status...

[GPLDAN]

No, distributors like Comstor and GE Access are just passing the manufacturer's discount on. It's a good question, actually. When a partner for a technology, say Sun, is big enough, they get a bigger discount. I assume that goes back all the way to Sun. They don't get involved. It would be Sun who would get the tax benefit.

Turbocharged?

[MachDelta]

WTF? Why would any self respecting geek use the overly abused term "Turbocharged" to describe their project? This is something thats always gotten under my skin... whenever people claim something other than a combustion engine is "turbocharged", I just shake my head. But I let it go because the common man/woman just wouldn't get it anyways. But a geek project? Aren't we supposed to be relatively smart around here? Come on! You don't see "overclocked ovens" in stores, why the hell do we use "turbocharged" in the same nonsensical manner? I may not be an expert, but from what I know, there is nothing in WiFi or even networking that involves turbine powered compression. Why does everyone love this misnomer? Doesn't it sound stupid to anyone else? Or is it just me?
[/rant]

Re:Turbocharged?

[GPLDAN]

Turbo Pascal, product by Borland.

The word "Turbo" has become part of the lexicon for describing anything fast. I don't think anyone really understands that the product is not using it's own exhaust gases to boost internal horsepower. Imagine if Slashdot did that, it would FLY. God knows there is so much exhaust gas around here.

This now in: Native American has an opinion

[asl24]

Ahh, as, what appears to be the only resident Indian (I really do dislike the term Native American, come on, you were born here too) I feel it my responsibility to comment on this post.

1) the parent is RIGHT! Sort of. Tribal politics determine where what money goes. If the Chief (or Tribal Elder(s), depending) wants to squander the mondy given to the tribe on installing a pool next to his house, he can. And, just try to speak out against that! Oh, you wanted an enrollment number (same idea as SSN, but for Indians, it determines eligability for grands, scholarships, loands, etc) for your kid? Too bad. Turns out, the tribe has disowned you. Oh, and we'll be taking yours as well (yup, they can and do). AND, these tribal leaders (due to some serious rules you don't want me to go into) tend to be the bottom to the totem pole as far as brains and generosity go (at least in my area). They don't have to share if they don't want to (and tend to not want to). It is activly participating in and seeing this mentality that breeds laziness. Couple that with the mentality of the average welfare recepient (white, black, pink, purple, red, etc) and what you have is a breeding ground for welfare moms.

2) The parent is also wrong. Connectivity to the internet will (hopefully) give an added boost to those who are looking to get out of the rut they are currently in. Surprisingly, some actually want to do this.

3) Not all Indians get free education. I'm working my butt off to put myself through school because I'm not recognized by my tribe (no enrollment number = no free money). Sorry parent, not all Indians are created equal, either.

4) Those of you who are trying to play the race card, get over yourself! It is a fact that the single most desciminated against group of individuals in the US today (as a direct result of anti-descrimination laws) is the single white male, age 23-27. (period)

Re:This now in: Native American has an opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess...you are something like 1/128th or 1/256th Indian right? And you are upset because the tribe won't recognize your "Indianess". Let me guess again - Cherokee right?

Well, I belong to a tribe and I still had to pay my own way through college. There is a finite amount of money for scholarships, so you have to compete for them just like every other scholarship out there.

BTW, the tribe cannot "remove" you from being an Indian. The BIA decides who is and isn't Indian based on blood quantum and tribal and government records. A tribe can recognize you even if the BIA doesn't, but they don't have to if the BIA doesn't.

You might try signing up with the Wannabe tribe, maybe they'll take you.

Re:This now in: Native American has an opinion

[asl24]

1/8 - Osage/Iroquois. And, for the record, that is plenty to be registered Cherokee (their cut off is 1/16), so even my KIDS could be... oooohhh impressive.

Also, as I mentioned, I'm not sure how ALL tribes funtion, and thus limited my comments to those that I have had past dealings with (for the record, that is neither the Osage nor Iroquois tribes (as my family hasn't been officially recognized by them since my grandfather married and left the rez (c) 1925), and I'd rather not mention which tribes they are). And, believe you me, those I have personal knowledge of have (and will continue to, I'm sure) kick people out the their tribe as they see fit.

Additionally, the individual tribes get to determine where the cut off is for acceptance into the tribe (i.e.: Cherokee is 1/16th, and Mono is 1/64th) and the BIA goes right along with them. Now, before you get your knickers in a knot over that one, I'm not saying the specific tribes having a voice in that is wrong, rather, I'm all for it. What I'm saying is, those numbers are sometimes volitile, and, tribal records have been known to get "lost" somehow.

I'm sorry, were you trying to comment on any of the information in my post? You seem to have focused on something you had no information about, and instead assumed that someone back in the old west spent a night in one of my ancestors tee-pee's, sorry to disappoint you.

Re:This now in: Native American has an opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you are what 1/16 Osage and 1/16th Iriquois is it?

I really want to understand why it is SO important to you to be recognized as an Indian. Is it monetary gain - benefits and the like?

Is it a pride/ego thing where being Indian is somehow better than the folks you have now?

Just be who you are man. If you're Indian, then don't give a damn whether anyone says you aren't. Be proud no matter who you are, or where your folks came from.

And give the "poor me, I'm Indian but no one knows it" rap a rest.

Re:This now in: Native American has an opinion

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm a married white male, age 23-27 (recently single). Most of my friends are single white males/females 23-27.

Trust me, we're *NOT* being discriminated against.

We're still getting the best jobs and living in the nicest neighborhoods with pretty people shopping in our stores. ...and those ugly darkies are still looked at suspiciously, aren't trusted with responsibility, live in shitty neighborhoods shopping at the ghetto stores (with great prices BTW)

This is in Northern NJ, BTW.

Seriously, as an attractive white person who lives in a nice neighborhood near the ghetto (a river seperates us) and works with the ugly dark people, I *KNOW* they are discriminated against because they are ugly dark people.

You can try to pretend you're not a racist (really, it's more of a problem of prejudice), but I know you'll start telling me your favorite nigger jokes when nobody else is looking.

Not correcting, protecting...

[SuperKendall]

Some people strip stuff like that out automatically trying to prevent things like SQL injection attacks - so it is probably not a correction, they are just not sophisticated enough to handle quotes for input.

It is pretty annoying, and likley not to get better for some time. In fact there are hardware devices that companies are deploying ahead of web servers to protect against attacks, that will also likley strip that "'" and lead to even more sites that munge the name.

Re:Not correcting, protecting...

[CoughDropAddict]

It's no harder to strip an apostrophe than it is to replace one with two (which is proper SQL quoting). But I get your point.

surge of DUI activity?

[Anonymous Coward]

How could it get worse?

Friends of mine grew up on a couple different reservations and they said that from payday until they ran out of money, people would line up at the liquor stores and buy as much as they could carry. If they didn't have one in their town, they would drive to one that did and pack the car with as much as they could buy. Highway 666 in New Mexico is a very dangerous road, not because of the number, but because of the sheer numbers of drunks attempting to drive while 2-3 times over the legal limit.

Re:surge of DUI activity?

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll? Looks like the crack smoking moderators are being politically correct tonight too. Sorry. The parent post is 100% correct. Anyone that lives near any of these God-forsaken socialist hellholes knows that it's true.

Need a new RFC...

[heretic108]

...for IP via Smoke Signals

You have a shitty understanding of legal recourse.

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't about YOUR white man's guilt and paying for your ancestors mistakes, it's about the US GOVERNMENT being held accountable for broken treaties.

Think of our government as an organization like a corporation. If that corporation signs treaties and breaks them, then that corporation is legally responsible and liable.

It doesn't matter if you were around or not. Our government doesn't stop being obligated to its treaties just because you came into this world.

If you don't like it, then I can recommend emmigrating to another country that didn't indebt itself to the locals.

YOU DO HAVE A CHOICE IN ALL OF THIS. PAY THE DEBT YOUR GOVERNMENT OBLIGATED YOU TO PAY, OR FIND ANOTHER COUNTRY.

woowoowooowoo

[Anonymous Coward]

woowowooowooowooowooowo!!!

Old news. . . .

[Rogue Leader]

Native Americans have had wireless communication for centuries. Smoke signals, anyone? No offense to my red brothers, we smokem peace pipe.

Angry Geeks

[broadzilla]

I am shocked to read the number of angry responses to this story. I always thought that technology was neutral in the racial game, and was quite surprised at the number of angry, racial geeks out there. I guess I should be glad that your remarks are based on ignorance rather than truth or honesty. The good news: you angry guys are not the majority.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Standard slashdot injoke:
you're new here, aren't you?

Ever since I've been reading /., every time there's been a story about non-whites, there's been a shitload of racist comments.

So I'm not shocked. Just sickened.

Re:Angry Geeks

[dustinbarbour]

Please.. I don't hate native americans. I hate lazy people taking handouts and STILL having the lowest quality of life in America. Where's my fuckin' handout? I'm a native, too. Oh wait.. I'm white. It's been decreed that I don't need any help with anything. In fact, it's my duty to help everyone else. To hell with that.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

What do yo mean you don't get a handout.... White People got $12million from the same grant! Go find your people and ask for your share and quit whining.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Where is your handout? You already got all the land for next to nothing? Poor me.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

The only land I got is some undeveloped rural acreage that cost me $11,000/acre. Hardly "next to nothing."

FTR, I'm 1/16 Cherokee, and this whole "reparations for the sins of past generations" thing is abso-fucking-lutely ridiculous. You want to give me some cash because my long-dead relatives were rounded up and marched to Oklahoma in the dead of winter with almost zero food and clothing? How about some cash for all the shit the Brits did to my ancestors on my mother's side of the family in Ireland? Maybe a little from Scotland because my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandfather was killed when William Wallace sacked York? Didn't think so. So why should I have to give you FreeShit(TM) to make up for your ancestors' sufferings?

Were you personally driven from your land at gunpoint, systematically slaughtered, slowly starved, or otherwise oppressed? No? Then STFU!

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Oppressed? Yes - I often find it difficult to move forward in my life - I often deal with people who harrass me based on my cultural background at work and away from work. Hard to get further in my career because of the color of my skin.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe you should get 1/16th of the total handout from the 15/16th of yourself...

Re:Angry Geeks

[pyrrhonist]

Hard to get further in my career because of the color of my skin.

Have you ever actually been turned down for a job, because of your skin color? I have, and I'm caucasian.

I interviewed at a govenment agency in the 90's, and the director flat out told me, "You're more qualified for the job, but we have to hire the other candidate, because he is in a minority."

The other candidate ended up not taking the job. I took it, because I needed the money.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

turned down because of my skin color? Yes, many times...Also been harassed, slandered, attacked, belittled... geez, I could go on for a long time...

Re:Angry Geeks

[Lord Omlette]

Damn straight.

Re:Angry Geeks

[pyrrhonist]

turned down because of my skin color?

You realize, that employers can't legally do that in your case, but they can in mine. I could not do anything about it in my case, because they were a government agency and under their minority quota. The irony is that the other candidate was not even a U.S. citizen, but was in a minority.

Also been harassed, slandered, attacked, belittled...

Yup, me too. Public schools are integrated, but neighborhoods are not. It makes no difference how nice you are to people when you're a cracker on the outside.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

It makes no difference how nice you are to people

That could work in your favor, because you're an asshole.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

a lot of things can't be done to minorities but it does happen

Re:Angry Geeks

[buddhaseviltwin]

It's clear that you don't hate native Americans, you're just prejudiced. ...because the recipients are a rural Native American group, they clearly don't deserve it because by default it's a handout for people who are clearly lazy by default. Another thing, for all the federal money that's been giving to different states and municipalities for telecommunications projects/infratstructure, I don't hear you stigmitizing those recipients with offensive stereotypes. If you're still so concerned about paying for handouts, maybe I should direct your attention to Medicare and Social Security which easily take up almost half of the federal budget compared to the miniscule amount that is allocated to THE SUM OF ALL OF THESE PROJECTS/PROGRAMS. You're not a racist. You're just prejudiced. As a white man, I'm all too aware of how a good many white Americans REALLY feel.

Re:Angry Geeks

[buddhaseviltwin]

Boo hoo. One lousy job, and you STILL got it.

Talk about being a whining victim.

Re:Angry Geeks

[buddhaseviltwin]

Everybody's 1/16 Cherokee. It does nothing for the record.

This is not about handouts or reparations. Our government signed a lot of treaties that they were legally bounded by. Our government broke those treaties, so our courts have rightly decided that our government should PAY DAMAGES for violating agreements it entered in...

It's not about you and me paying for our grandparents mistakes. It's about the US and Canadian governments paying for their mistakes. If you really don't want to continue paying for our countries past mistakes, then I can suggest a number of countries where you can emmigrate.

Lastly, ending your posts with STFU cements your juvenille tendencies. IE, It makes you look really stupid.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

that's suck bullshit. Go visit a reservation west of the Mississippi (ie a real one - not one of these piddly 40 acre rez's in Conneticut or some other pissant eastern state). They are the most hard core examples of the Federal welfare state and why the entire system of paying people to sit on their asses needs to be abolished NOW! People don't give a shit about improving themselves, getting an education, or anything beyond getting drunk and watching TV. It's been drilled into their heads for generations that the Govt (tribal and/or Federal) will take care of them, so they should stick together and do whatever their tribal leaders tell them.

It doesn't matter if their are black, white, red, yellow, or pink w/ purple polka-dots. No human should live in that senseless state of dispair and dependency.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

There is something about high tech and making comments for shock value. K-rad commodore skater punks often said "you are a worthless vaginal blood fart". Very creative, you get a cookie.

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Not just one job, but I have to deal with racism in all aspects of my life...

Re:Angry Geeks

[buddhaseviltwin]

Your so vague, which is usually an indicator that someone is full of shit.

Tell me, if you haven't been hired for a couple of jobs because your white why do you:

1. Mention only the ONE scenario which you actually did get the job.
2. Failed to mention the plurality of your discrimination?

Quit pretending to be a victim. Any discrimination you've experience doesn't come close to the prejudice and discrimination that poor minorities have to deal with... ...and don't try telling me people aren't discriminating against these days. Most people are discriminated against these days, especially ugly people, and GOD FORBID if you're an ugly fat black woman who speaks like a black person.

I know plenty of fellow white people who aren't technically racists (because they believe some minorities are good), but can't seem to kick the racial prejudice and can't even fathom their inherant non-racial prejudice.

Re:Angry Geeks

[buddhaseviltwin]

Who's advocating a welfare state?

My point was: Why are you singling out Native American welfare recipients?

Secondly, If you ARE going to give someone a helping hand, isn't giving money to help build a telecommunications infrastructure one of the good ways? Isn't giving them an incentive to get an education a good way?

THEY AREN'T GETTING FREE INTERNET. They still have to pay $30-$50 a month to use the service, so what's the big deal?

The federal government gave the regional bells BILLIONS UPON BILLIONS of dollars to help build OUR telecommunications infrastructure. So why are you singling out this little venture?

Re:Angry Geeks

[pyrrhonist]

I think you just replied to the AC that was replying to me, so let me speak for myself.

Your so vague, which is usually an indicator that someone is full of shit.

Exactly how am I vague? Because I didn't include the name of the government agency? I think I was pretty specific.

Tell me, if you haven't been hired for a couple of jobs because your white why do you:

I never said, "a couple of jobs". You are putting words in my mouth.

1. Mention only the ONE scenario which you actually did get the job.

I mentioned one scenerio, because there was only one scenerio.

And stop trying to cloud the issue. The fact that I got the job makes no difference. If the other candidate had wanted the job, he would have gotten it. Furthermore, the HR person admitted that the other person was *less qualified* than I was. That is the point. It was discrimination, plain and simple.

2. Failed to mention the plurality of your discrimination?

Again, I never said anything about it happening more than once.

Quit pretending to be a victim.

I am not pretending to be a victim. I am not a victim, and I do not wish to be a victim. I hear people complain about racism all the time, when it turns out that they've never actually experienced it. What is usually shocking to these people is that I have experienced racism in both my career and in my personal life. I am not claiming that it's anything like the horrors that others have experienced, all I am saying is that I was told I was not good enough because of the color of my skin. Most of the people of minorities that I have talked to about this have not experienced it themselves.

Any discrimination you've experience doesn't come close to the prejudice and discrimination that poor minorities have to deal with...

That's true, I'm not going to deny that. I'm telling you that it works BOTH ways, because I've exprienced it.

...and don't try telling me people aren't discriminating against these days.

They are. As are ALL people.

Most people are discriminated against these days

Exactly my point.

especially ugly people, and GOD FORBID if you're an ugly fat black woman who speaks like a black person.

What's wrong with obese black women? I think you're a racist.

I know plenty of fellow white people who aren't technically racists (because they believe some minorities are good), but can't seem to kick the racial prejudice and can't even fathom their inherant non-racial prejudice.

That would still be racism.

Re:Angry Geeks

[pyrrhonist]

Boo hoo. One lousy job, and you STILL got it.

That's not the point. The point is that the other candidate was offered the job even though I was more qualified, because of my non-favorable racial status.

Talk about being a whining victim.

You aren't listening. I am not a victim. I am not claiming to be a victim. I resent being called a victim, and I'd like an apology.

Re:Angry Geeks

[pyrrhonist]

That could work in your favor, because you're an asshole.

I'm an asshole, because I got called a honkey and spit on?

Re:Angry Geeks

[buddhaseviltwin]

You're right. I wasn't replying to you. I was replying to the guy pretending to be you and claimed it was more than one job. What's wrong with obese black women? I think you're a racist. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, you can bet your ass a good many people believe see them as their inferiors. You can believe I'm a racist all you want, just like I can believe (and with good conviction) that you couldn't get the point if you fell on a bed of needles. Seriously, I don't really think you're that stupid, rather I'm more inclined to believe you were just being dishonest by intentionally presenting asserting a falicous conclusion. If you want to blatently lie and present misleading arguments to try and win your argument, then I'd like to forwarn you that I will not let you get away with any bullshit. ...but since you're not the guy pretending to be you, I really couldn't give a shit.

Re:Angry Geeks

[pyrrhonist]

You're right. I wasn't replying to you. I was replying to the guy pretending to be you and claimed it was more than one job.

He also implied that he is a member of a minority. Is he at fault for, "being a whining victim", as you put it?

I don't think there's anything wrong with it, you can bet your ass a good many people believe see them as their inferiors.

Definitely true, and my point is that a lot of people also see skinny, pretty, white women as inferior ("She's pretty, therefore she must be dumb.")

You can believe I'm a racist all you want,

I don't, it was an offhand remark. I'm sorry about that.

just like I can believe (and with good conviction) that you couldn't get the point if you fell on a bed of needles.

No, I got your point, I'd just like to augment it by adding that: racism is universal.

I'm more inclined to believe you were just being dishonest by intentionally presenting asserting a falicous conclusion.

I assure you that the only conclusion I came to from my experience is that racism can happen to anyone.

If you want to blatently lie and present misleading arguments to try and win your argument, then I'd like to forwarn you that I will not let you get away with any bullshit.

Well, you have to at least give me the chance to defend myself. Which thing is it that I said that you think is a lie?

but since you're not the guy pretending to be you, I really couldn't give a shit.

The poster obviously thought you were making a reference to his post. He said that he was having difficulties with his career due to his skin color, but did not provide any specifics. I simply provided an example where I had encountered an issue with getting a job due to my skin color. However, you chose to reply to me instead of him.

So what I want to know is, "Did knowing the color of my skin affect your posting?"

Re:Angry Geeks

[Anonymous Coward]

Lastly, ending your posts with STFU cements your juvenille tendencies. IE [e.g.], It makes you look really stupid.

Perhaps we need to do somthing about the education of our "Native American" friends?

This is not about handouts or reparations.

The issue is about handouts and reparations! Its all about YOU trying to get SOMTHING for NOTHING.

Re:You have a shitty understanding of legal recour

[spacecowboy420]

How convenient of you to take that attitude when you are not paying.
How convenient of you to reap the benefits of your ancestors' suffering when you have not suffered at all.
How convenient of you to refer to this as my ancestors mistakes. My ancestors are just as at fault as yours - (hint: they're not).

I care not to argue the legality of the issue - because likely you are technically right. I am arguing the common sense side (i.e. should we imprison Jeffery Dahmer's family? See, he killed a bunch of people, and didn't serve his full 900-year sentence because he was murdered. Using your logic (broken treaties and such) his family should be held accountable for those remaining 900 years - what about the victims!)

How convenient for you to tell me to get out of a country that affords you the opportunity to live effortlessly, and one that I fought for your right to do so.

How convenient for you to despise me because I don't want to give *you* another unearned dime.

Don't misunderstand my disdain for paying for your school and what not as a jab at Native Americans in general. I live in Phoenix and have a handful of Navajo friends - close enough to include me in a couple of sweats. And also close enough to discuss this very issue candidly. They know they are getting a free ride and know to exploit it - because it is available to them. You, sir, are making arguments to justify your sponge like behavior. I pay taxes, because I have a job. I have a job to support my family. You sir, sit over where you are, riding on the suffering of your ancestors. You are sad, pathetic and a disgrace to your proud people.

Corporate White America Receives $12 Million

[Anonymous Coward]

Newsflash: Corporate White America received $12 million in the same round of grants from RUS. The state of Alabama got over $12 million of govt grants for their infrastructure in another round of RUS grants. The facts are: There are Govt funds for nearly every cause out there, be it CORPORATE, STATE, OR TRIBAL. If you look hard enough, there are probably funds for Geek Anger Management. There. Now did that calm you down? Thought so.

Smoke from servers

[Atario]

They have a page with giant videos (like > 270MB). If you want to Slashdot them, poke around for yourself -- I'm not going to link to them, since I don't want to see their servers start involuntarily giving off smoke signals.

AMEN BROTHER!

[p51d007]

I have to be one of the most non politically correct persons you would ever want to meet. Do I use the "N" word, no.......but all this hyphenated BS is about the end. I am a NATIVE AMERICAN....why? Because I was BORN in this country! All this xxxxxxx-american crap is about spliting this country. Handouts promote laziness, period. If you want to see how well a swift kick in the butt works, look at the success of the welfare to work program. Those that are able bodied, and are willing to WORK, succeed! Those that want to just lay on thier fat a**, fail. Nobody ever gave me a dime, nor would I want them to. I want to make it on my own, spend my own money the way I want to. If you are beholding to a government handout, all they do is give you jusssssttttt enough to squeak by, theyby keeping you beholding to them (and voting for the ones that keep giving you the money), which, is just what they want. Socialism......does NOT work, because every human on this planet, has a yearning to be free!

Re:AMEN BROTHER!

[glesga_kiss]

Socialism......does NOT work, because every human on this planet, has a yearning to be free!

Ah great, another capitalism == freedom nutter. Socialism and capitalism are economic systems. There are a hell of a lot of socialist countries (try Europe) where you have more freedom than capitalist countries. I'd place a bet on this, but that would be against the law where you are.

You see, the big fat rich people have convinced you that the system which benefits them and makes them uber rich also means you are "free". If you have issues with the inbalance, then you must be an evil communist. So please don't rock the boat and upset their apple cart. You must hate freedom if you feel like that.

On or near?

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess the only portion of this I find interesting, is the Tribe will be able to provide wireless access to those living on the reservation (which I get...although I think it is unfair) and near? Isn't this a example of using tax dollars to fund something that competes with other businesses that are regulated by the government? That to me, isn't right. The government should not fund the purchase of services in a sector of business that they regulate. And in all honesty, they (the government) are doing this more and more often. Here is a prime example:

http://www.noanet.net/home.shtml

Americans in general really

[Anonymous Coward]

what did you expect, most posters here are American, you the country that fingerprints tourists, tortures people etc etc we have all seen the news , if you have brown skin watch out

you cant blame them (citizens) really, the goverment more or less encourages it (watch out he might be a teroorist), you saw how they treated black people in the 50's, or prisoners in iraqi jails in 04, now the witch hunt is for arabs/muslims/mexicans, same racism really just with a different face under the guise of "terrorist" planting the seeds of hate subconciously into its citizens with the goal of non-white = "suspected terrorist" in 2004

shame , it just seems they learn NOTHING from history and keep repeating the same mistakes until they get bitten

Re:Americans in general really

[Anonymous Coward]

What? That was torture? I thought those pictures were from a homosexual reality show where everyone in the apt complex gets together in one big naked pile for a group fuck.

Re:Americans in general really

[toiletmonster]

dude have you even been off of the "continent"? racism is a 100 times worse just about every part of the world than it is in america. just keep watching those hollywood movies.

ask france about their muslims. ask asians about their daughters marrying white men. ask any south american about the status of indians in their country. i think your precious muslims are real nice to women too.

no group of people is perfect. try keep it in perspective, dufus.

Disgusting american comments

[Anonymous Coward]

you should be ashamed of some of the comments here, absolute discgrace, but then dignity isnt something we witness from USA anymore, if /. is a small slice of the countries attitude in general its no wonder people try to use their buildings as runways

pity them

Re:Disgusting american comments

[Anonymous Coward]

What country are you from? We can kick the crap out of that next.

Liberation spectrum

[lucidvein]

Hmm, reminds me of the story by Cory Doctorow, Liberation spectrum.

Interesting thing about the wireless ISPs in Eastern WA is that they are intensely competing for coverage. To the point of knocking down each others repeaters, towers, antennas, etc. Yakima County police are using the 802.11(?) spectrum to network their mobile units. Certain people were broadcasting white noise or amping up the power on their transmitters enough to bring the sherrif out . They should be getting their own spectrum within a year, but for now the money they're saving by using off the shelf equipment makes up for the wait.

What kind of wireless equipment are they using?

[usurper_ii]

I went to site and attempted to read the article, but I couldn't find any information on the actual equipment they plan on using for the wireless part.

Looking at the pictures, they seem to not have heavy tree coverage, but if they are going to try and use something like Motorola Canopy equipment, trees could very well be an issue.

I would also be curios as to the radius that is going to need to be covered. Do most of the people live pretty close together or is the community spread out all over the creation?

If it is the latter, I would really like to know what kind of equipment they are using!?!

Usurper_ii

they just don't get it..

[Anonymous Coward]

give up already..you lost, we won. Get with the big picture will ya? how bout for a bottle of whiskey?

Next stop...

[Anonymous Coward]

...Indian outsourcing? :)

[Worst. Slashdot post. Ever.]

Insecure.

[Raven42rac]

I hope this is not connected to the insecure computer systems that have been shut down twice. IIRC, that was the BIA (Bureau of Indian Affairs).

Re:Coeur d'Alene (more fun facts)

[Zen]

I have a cousin who went to the college in Coeur d'Alene, and the town is pretty much owned by a group of cultist / supremacist / Aryan / whatever you want to call them run by some guy who I don't recall the name of with a compound up on the hill. He said that the guy shuts down the town once a year for a huge fireworks display - I don't recall if it's for July 4th or not. But he was very clear about the entire (useful) government being run by this guy, and that they're always having rallies.

Just one question...

[Anonymous Coward]

/me holds up hand and says "How."

How broad is the lake?

[Ungrounded Lightning]

What about north? Coeur d'Alene and Hayden (where I live) are both north of the lake.

As another poster already mentioned, the service is available to non tribe member residents on the res.

If they haven't already put an access point on your side of the lake, how broad is the lake? If only a few miles, you should be able to hit the access point with a directional antenna.

24 db dishes can be had online for less than a hundred bux, and two of 'em face-to-face can easily go more than ten miles, while one of 'em pointing at an ordinary accesspoint can make several miles. Similarly, a short yagi (or a "pringles can" antenna) can get you considerable distance.

So even if they don't have an AP on your side of the lake, you may be able to connect.

And IF you can connect, you can stick a second card in your box, enable routing, and become a local access point for the others who can't hit directly. (Two such volunteers can provide a solid feed without leaving the rest of your community in the lurch when you're rebooting.)

And I think some cheap routers can also be configured for this - just replace one of the rubber duckies with a directional antenna - or plug two of 'em - one with a directional antenna, one with duckies or roof-mounted omnis - into your ethernet hub or back-to-back with a crossover ethernet cable.

But since the intent WAS to feed the whole community don't be surprised if such relay access points are already part of the plan. (Or, since they're so cheap to add, if they get added once they're suggested.)

good going

[cdn-programmer]

Well - I think there should be kudos and pats on the back and I say good going.

However I do note that 2.8 million divided by 40 works out to about $70,000 per computer so these are slightly less expensive than the toilet seats we hear about.

The service area is the issue of course. Sparsely populated areas are expensive to service.

Still - good going and I hope it works out!

Re:Coeur d'Alene (more fun facts)

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah not so much. Recent years have pretty much ended any sort of real activity by the white supremacists. Richard Butler (who you were speaking of, though you gave him entirely too much power than he actually wielded) is long gone--he tried to run for mayor of Hayden Idaho (just 2 minutes north of Coeur d'Alene) but failed miserably. The Aryan Nation compound was destroyed after court order gave it to the victims of a white supremacist attack.

Re:Coeur d'Alene (more fun facts)

[wadetemp]

I have a cousin who went to the college in Coeur d'Alene, and the town is pretty much owned by a group of cultist / supremacist / Aryan / whatever you want to call them run by some guy who I don't recall the name of with a compound up on the hill. He said that the guy shuts down the town once a year for a huge fireworks display - I don't recall if it's for July 4th or not. But he was very clear about the entire (useful) government being run by this guy, and that they're always having rallies.

Well, your cousin is wrong. One, the group no longer owns a "compound" in the area. Two, they don't have a fireworks show, or anything else, that shuts down the town. Three... well, he might be right about them always having rallies, if by "always having rallies" he means "there are always a couple guys hanging out with the 'leader' when he goes to the grocery store to pick up his prescriptions."

Unfortunately the media gives an impressive amount of visibility to this crusty old troublemaker and his buddies. Forgive me, but both they and you look like idiots when this garbage is perpetuated. (At least you have your cousin to blame though...)

Re:You have a shitty understanding of legal recour

[spacecowboy420]

Are Dahmer's victims still dead? Yes. Are the victim's families still alive and grieving? Yes. Dahmer's family should continue to pay then - right? Perhaps some sort of check to each victim each month.

Do you still personally grieve your ancestors in other than a ceremonial way? No.

Are you benefiting from land "taken" from your people? Yes AND you have sovereign land with which to do with as you wish outside of the laws of the country that pays your bills so you don't have to work. If you really believe that you are receiving your benefits for use of land, you're sadly mistaken. "We" (those besides Native Americans, i.e. ANYONE that comes to this country no matter how oppressed they were in their country of origin) are still paying for the white man's guilt.

Look, I understand your bitterness, and I am by no means trivializing the attrocities commited against your people. I am not implying you are unjustified, just focusing your anger at the wrong generation. When does it stop? Does AMERICA continue to pay benefits until we are all one race and noone has 1/8 of American Indian in them? Millions of years? The situation is flawed because there is no way you can have retribution unless everyone moves out and leaves the country to you. Then we have to pay for the damage civilization has done to your resources and so on and so on. Yet, you haven't shed a drop of blood and I have never killed ANYONE. The sons and daughters of America will continue to pay for the sins of America's forefathers until.....?

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense does it? So get a job and quit your whining you fucking victim.

Re:You have a shitty understanding of legal recour

[Anonymous Coward]

By the way, I'm the guy you're replying to, but I'm not the original poster. I'm a white guy who happens to know a little bit about this stuff.

Like you, I don't believe in welfare, BUT UNLIKE YOU, I understand this is not about welfare, reparations, or a way to punish us for our grandparent's actions. It's about holding the ***US AND CANADIAN GOVERNMENTS*** accountable for its actions and enforcing their legal obligations.

While it is common sense that you don't punish children for their parent's actions (AND I AGREE WITH THIS PRINCIPLE), it's also common sense that a corporation cannot escape its legal obligations just because ownership is transferred.

Do you get it now?

If you finally get it, please tell your friends. There are too many people who share your misconception of the situation.

Re:You have a shitty understanding of legal recour

[buddhaseviltwin]

(here. I signed up for an account, now I will repost.)

By the way, I'm the guy you're replying to, but I'm not the original poster. I'm a white guy who happens to know a little bit about this stuff.

Like you, I don't believe in welfare, BUT UNLIKE YOU, I understand this is not about welfare, reparations, or a way to punish us for our grandparent's actions. It's about holding the ***US AND CANADIAN GOVERNMENTS*** accountable for its actions and enforcing their legal obligations.

While it is common sense that you don't punish children for their parent's actions (AND I AGREE WITH THIS PRINCIPLE), it's also common sense that a corporation cannot escape its legal obligations just because ownership is transferred.

Do you get it now?

If you finally get it, please tell your friends. There are too many people who share your misconception of the situation.

Re:You have a shitty understanding of legal recour

[spacecowboy420]

It is not that I don't understand the accountability of the government(s), it's that I don't want to pay for their transgressions. I wouldn't mind if there was an end in sight, but how long will WE pay for their sins? Shit Dahmer only got 900 years - when is OUR sentence up? As far as holding the governments "accountable", when does the accounting balance out? Is there a way to quantify the transgressions of America's forefathers? If not, what balance are they paying off? When will it be time for the unsuffering "victims" to quit their bitching and get to work? You explain the end game, and I will then understand. I don't beleive you can explain that to me because noone knows, it's a course we're on indefinitely, that is the problem I have.

Re:You have a shitty understanding of legal recour

[spacecowboy420]

Are Enron's employees responsible for the actions of the executives? Once they prosecute the executives, will the company continue to pay fines indefinitly? Will they take money from their employees paychecks to pay said fine? I know, they lost their jobs and their retirement - but it is over for them.

When will it be over us? When will this generation of Native Americans have to go get a job instead of living off of the blood of their ancestors? Since you know so much white guy, when is *our* debt paid? The African Americans were enslaved for over 400 years - They were treated (in my opinion) far worse than Native Americans ever were - where is their monthly paycheck? Where is their casino? Where are their reservations? Where is the many African nations and the American government's responsibility there? Since we're on this slippery slope, what about the Mexicans? *We* took their land and killed a bunch of them as well. Why aren't the Germans paying the Jews? That was way more fucked up than anything that ever happened to the Native Americans. Why are the Native Americans any different? Government responsibility and all that is bullshit and an excuse for a free ride. Sure, let us make sure to never repeat these attrocities , but lets do it by having some sort of national day of rememberance - hell, a month would by great. Encouraging sloth by distributing unearned income is a deservice to everyone. AND it is unearned, their ancestors spilled their blood, not the shiftless people I see living in filth on reservations.

Hi

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm Joe LotsaPorn......

WTF?

[Anonymous Coward]

WTF? If those impoverished arseholes want to live on a reservation those farkers had better act like the savages they are. Now they want broadband internet? They shouldn't even be allowed to have electricity on those reservations. If they want modern wonders, they should be forced to live like the rest of us.

Grant money also goes to real rural america

[Ciphix]

I am system administrator, as well as project manager for (Glenwood Telephone Company - the smallest independant telco in Georgia - www.gtconline.com) in Glenwood, Georgia (population ~~800 - average home income $16,000 a year) was awarded the Community-Oriented Connectivity Broadband Grant program by the United States Department of Agriculture / Rural Utilities Service as well. We have already successfully deployed this project to our area. The main portion of the grant funds that we were awarded 277,819 was used for the community center (www.thenetcenter.net)(10 computers [8 alienware area 51 systems and 2 Macintosh G5's, planning to add some linux pc's soon], however the remaining portion of this grant was used to deploy DSL within the city limits of Glenwood. While I can say that this helped our little company by aiding us in our broadband deployment there have been alot of other winners. The biggest winners in this so far have been the kids that now have somewhere to hang out, play games and use computers that they cannot afford to have, as well as have access to high tech equipment that the rural schools choose not to afford for them (only have 6 old computers per classroom). I must add however, another huge winner in this program was the critical care facilities (hospital, fire, police, city hall, schools within Glenwood) who get free broadband access for the first two years. Already our community center (thenetcenter.net) has a steady group of gamers coming in and they are helping us keep this project ongoing. Grants like this do indeed help out the smaller communities, and provide something other than just a local gas station to hang out in. As system administrator for Glenwood Telephone Company I can tell you that this was an excellent way to provide high speed Internet in our area. DS1's cost anywhere between $1300 a month to ~$4000 a month in our service area. What rural america can really use help in is getting backbone services cheaper to our area. Our telephone company's outside plant is among the best, if not the best in georgia (over 99% of our plant is underground and we deploy fiber constantly when doing new plant additions). Problem with deploying DSL in our area is that not many can afford it. This gets me into another problem I have that is really at the crux of the whole issue... the welfare society in america. People do not seem to realize that ISP's generally are a marginal profit business and I can guarantee you that our bandwith costs eat us alive. If we could have cheaper backbones to rural georgia we could definately see the "Rural Divide" narrow significantly. On another note even with the "subsidies" that our telco recieves with the Universal Service charge our customers would rather pay for cable TV anyday than to have a telephone or computer with internet access in their home (rural welfare society at its finest... another topic altogether). We are the atypical ISP. Many of our customers are the new computer users, average age 40+ who want to learn about computers and how they can make their lives more enjoyable. The beauty of rural america is its simplicity and access in rural america can make life simply more enjoyable. I sincerely hope that access can provide rural america the american dreams that many of them so desire. [steps off his soapbox]

This sounds much less depressing ...

[sean@thingsihate.org]

... than I always pictured this particular reservation when reading Sherman Alexie books.

"Liberation Spectrum"

[Anonymous Coward]

... so how long until the VCs take over? :)

Re:Coeur d'Alene (more fun facts)

[CoughDropAddict]

You have no idea how ignorant/misinformed that is, and how stupid it sounds.

The Aryan Nations are a complete joke. They're not even in town anymore; they got run out several years ago by a lawsuit that stripped them of their property (one of their security guards got overly ambitious and chased after a car that was driving by). At their peak, there were 10-15 of them, and the only time I ever saw them was when I went to one of their parades to see what they were like. I've never seen their former compound in four years of living there.

Their parades, BTW, were a complete joke too. The biggest one they ever had they dubbed the "100 man march," and they didn't even get 100 people -- even after flying in fellow racists from all over the country! Protesters always outnumbered marchers at least 10/1.

If there's anyone who dominates in Coeur d'Alene, it's Hagadone, who owns the big resort on the lake and the famous golf course with the floating golf green.

I find it hard to believe that your cousin could have lived in Coeur d'Alene for more than a week and been so clueless.

Actually, there are people in Coeur d'Alene who want the world to think dumb things about the area so they will stay away and not move here; the natives would rather keep this gorgeous area to themselves. It's quickly getting more crowded and traffic is getting worse.

They're likely to rip you off

[michajoe]

If you keep reloading pages on the casino website often enough, you'll get an ad at the right side promising "32 oz. of heaven" .... "our signature 24 oz. porterhouse steak ..." There's a 33% cheat right there ;-)

Legal Recourse Broken Down

[buddhaseviltwin]

Are Enron's employees responsible for the actions of the executives?

This is a terrible analogy, which probably explains why you're so confused, so here's a better one.

If your company was to lose a patent infringement case and the judgement was to pay 25% royalties indefinitely, your company may be forced to reduce your salary by 25%.

Are employees responsible for the wrong doing of thier company's? NO.

Can employees suffer from the wrong doing of their company. YES.

It's sad, but that's the way things have to be or corporate thieves would always be hiding behind their employees to escape prosecution.

When will it be over for us?

In many cases it is. A lot of treaty and land claim settlements ended up as a one-time payouts that were put into funds, while other settlements were payed out indefinitely. For example my wife (there, I let my bias slip out) gets a whopping $2 a year that she can use to help her pay her student loans, and she's 100% blood quantum Native American.

The African Americans were enslaved for over 400 years - They were treated (in my opinion) far worse than Native Americans ever were - where is their monthly paycheck?

Look, I agree with you. If it was about giving people money for their ancestor's sufferings then I would put African Americans and Holicaust Victims at the top of the list. BUT IT ISN'T, AND THAT'S WHY AFRICAN AMERICANS AREN'T WINNING SETTLEMENTS FOR LAND CLAIMS AND BROKEN TREATIES.

Secondly, I DO think that African Americans deserve something for their 400 year enslavement. How about giving them an incentive to get an education, or providing some after school activity funds to get kids off the street. (You'd be amazed how much crime drops between the hours of a youth basketball game, and you'd be even more surprised how CHEAP of a solution it is...)

LASTLY, You should note that the Native Americans who ARE living off the government do it through the WELFARE SYSTEM. That's the same welfare system that poor white trash and poor black trash live off. So why are you singling them out as people who have a special priveledge to live off the government?

If you're so jealous, you can knock up your girlfriend a couple times, find a trailer park somewhere and live off the system too!

HERE'S MY POINT: You don't know half of what's going on and you're desperately trying to reduce everything to this simplistic notion of "Why should I pay for my grandpappy's mistake?" when it isn't about that.

I'm not going to pretend I know half of what's going on, but giving how you've continually demonstrated you have a hard time grasping basic concepts of common law, I know better than to listen to you.

Re:Legal Recourse Broken Down

[spacecowboy420]

Look, you almost had me. You were almost lucid. Again, I am not debating law, which you seem to be missing. Read my fucking posts you condescending fuck. If you read my posts, you'd realize not only am I not reducing it to "Why should I pay for my grandpappy's mistake?", my family wasn't even here. It's like starting out in life with a huge amount of debt, but I digress.

My main points were (and you almost addressed one):
*Why do Native Americans receive the benefits they do and no other group does.
Here's your answer:
"Look, I agree with you. If it was about giving people money for their ancestor's sufferings then I would put African Americans and Holicaust Victims at the top of the list. BUT IT ISN'T, AND THAT'S WHY AFRICAN AMERICANS AREN'T WINNING SETTLEMENTS FOR LAND CLAIMS AND BROKEN TREATIES."

Here is where you didn't follow through:
*If there IS justification (i.e. the land claims and treaties you speak of), when will they stop receiving these benefits? See, that is my real quandry. "Indefinitly."

Now maybe my perspective is skewed because it would be easier for me to justify compensation for ancesteral pain and suffering than it is to justify STILL paying for "LAND CLAIMS AND BROKEN TREATIES". If it comes down to broken contracts, we should have had this resolved 100 years ago.

PS: Your wife is selling her self short. My ex-wife is 1/8 cherokee and had ALL of her college paid for. There, I've shown my bias as well.

Re:Legal Recourse Broken Down

[buddhaseviltwin]

Now maybe my perspective is skewed because it would be easier for me to justify compensation for ancesteral pain and suffering than it is to justify STILL paying for "LAND CLAIMS AND BROKEN TREATIES". If it comes down to broken contracts, we should have had this resolved 100 years ago.

Pardon me if I come off condescending, but it isn't all that uncommon for a land claim to be settled in a way that the stolen land is perpetually rented, because the damages are perpetual.

Think of it this way: You either give back the land, or you pay rent.

PS, I might as well admit that my wife is a Canadian North American Native and my mother-in-law is a top lands manager (Awarded 1st Lands Manager of the Year for all of Canada).

That explains why she had to pay for her education and only received $2 a year from an OLD settlement. (Canadians got a shittier deal.)

If I've learned anything from talking to my mother-in-law, I've learned the politics and legal matters involved are not very poorly understood by the majority of people for a number of reasons.

Re:Legal Recourse Broken Down

[spacecowboy420]

Well, that explains it a little clearer, but nonetheless, Native Americans still have access to the "property" we are renting and all rights and priviledges we do, aside from their own land that we have no rights to. They still have access to welfare, can vote, are considered citizens AND collect rent. Kinda like renting out a house you live in. I still believe it is time for us all to move on, doing this together. I am still tired of carrying around someone else's guilt.

Re:Legal Recourse Broken Down

[buddhaseviltwin]

Native Americans still have access to the "property" we are renting and all rights and priviledges we do, aside from their own land that we have no rights to.

What you're talking about is the ability purchase the property we are renting. Yes, Native Americans can purchase this land they same way we can purchase it, but try to remember:

You can only purchase the land if the current owner is willing to sell the land.

Think about it. The natives have been tricked, robbed, and killed from their land. Do you think they're going to want to sell it off after all that???

Now they could just exercise their rights and refuse to sell thier land, but having been tricked into selling their land for beeds for so long, you can bet they want extra protection by now.

Especially after schemes that including giving the chief and counsel nice little kickbacks. So, in order to keep the white man from tricking them again, what do you think they did?

They opted to make giving their land away VIRTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE, which is well within their rights as property owners. (Especially if the government agrees.)

They still have access to welfare, can vote, are considered citizens AND collect rent.

Just like any other citizen who rents thier land or wins a land claim. You do know that white people can file land claims too, right? (If they have a valid claim.)

If you could convince the government to sign a treaty where you are semi-sovereign and don't have to pay taxes, you would expect the government to hold up it's end of the bargain, right?

I am still tired of carrying around someone else's guilt.

Again, this has nothing to do with retributions or guilt. It's about property rights and upholding the principles of contract law by holding parties responsible for the contracts they sign.

Look, I'm sorry you feel tired of carrying around someone else's guily. I personally don't feel that way.

If my company had to fire me because they lost a lawsuit where they were in the wrong, I would blame my company, not the other party who was wrong.

Let me sum this up for you:

Your government has been financially obligating to ALL SORTS of debt you didn't agree to since before you were born. So why single out the commitments they made (and broke) to the Native Americans?

If you're seriously going to complain about being in debt to the government's actions then I'd like to direct your attention to the following:

Did you agree to:
* Establish Social Security, Medicare?
* Commit to Federal Highway, Defense spending?
* Farm Subsidies, Universal Welfare?
* and borrowing trillions of dollars from China to pay for all of these?

Now if you believe that governments shouldn't be able to commit its citizens to these obligations, then I'll honor and respect your beliefs.

BUT, if you believe our government has the right to commit its citizens, then I think you need to explain why you're singling out our government's commitments to the Native Americans.

Re:Legal Recourse Broken Down

[spacecowboy420]

Well said. Ok, I am less adament about it now. I don't like to pay for my governments debt, but you're right, I care much more for the other shit that the government wastes money on than this issue. Singling out the Native Americans when there is broader wastefullness - like welfare - seems like cutting at a small branch to fell a tree.

I know what you mean...

[SuperKendall]

It is just as easy to encode the imput in some way, but I fear a host of automated devices will just decide it's better to err on the side of removal for security!

Re:Valerie Fast Horse

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny coming from someone who is such a geek he has to jack off every 5 minutes while looking at his pimple reflection in the mirror.

Contributions of Local Govt Zero

[broadzilla]

What some of you fail to notice is the fact that this was a COMMUNITY project, funded through the USDA-- that's Department of Agriculture--not the BIA. That means that the project is being completed for the benefit of ALL people in the reservation community, the majority of whom are non-Indian. You might also notice that the governments of the City of Plummer, Benewah County and the State of Idaho are not contributing a nickel. Tribal government only is coming up with the required 15% matching funds. Plummer, Idaho, population 900, is overwhelmingly white. You should be so lucky as to have a tribal government like this in or near you own communities, ceaselessly investing its financial and human resources to improve the lives of all who live there, Indian and non-Indian.