Thief 3 Deadly Shadows Bug Neuters In-Game AI

Channard writes "You can add another footnote to the strange fortunes of Ion Storm. It's been revealed that Thief: Deadly Shadows has a bug that affects the intelligence of the guards and other characters in the game, both in the PC and Xbox versions. Ion Storm Austin, the creators of the game, really went to work on the character AI in Deadly Shadows - on Expert level, the guards notice things like open doors, missing objects and the like. The catch, as reported on the official Ion Storm forums, is that a bug in the game resets the difficulty level to Normal level if you save and load your position in-game. The word from one of the Thief developers is that: 'We're looking into it.Can't say anything more for now, and there aren't any guarantees... but the find isn't being ignored.' The PC version should be relatively easy to patch, but fixing the Xbox version would be trickier, perhaps requiring a full recall (Microsoft doesn't allow the Xbox Live service to be used for anything other than patches that affect online play.)"

Comments

This should happen more often...

[avalys]

I wish this would happen more often. Then maybe people would realize that the PC is a superior gaming platform to all these crappy consoles...

Re:This should happen more often...

[Anonymous Coward]

Assuming, that is, that you bought all your components no less than a week ago, have the latest alpha-quality drivers, and the patience to deal with it when it all fails to work for no comprehensible reason.

Then, you get to buy all new stuff a month later, and start all over again. Whee!

Re:This should happen more often...

[TheRealMindChild]

Yeah, because a consistant platform is EVIL!!!!!!

You missed the short bus again this morning, didn't you?

Re:This should happen more often...

[Dark Nexus]

Every piece of hardware in my computer except the video card is older than the oldest retail X-Box, and the video card is 2 years old.

A 2 year old computer that can outperform a 2 1/2 year old console.

Wow, guess there goes your theory.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, because a consistant platform is EVIL!!!!!!

You missed the short bus again this morning, didn't you?

It's okay, so long as one does not consistently miss the short bus.

Re:This should happen more often...

[StocDred]

I wish this would happen more often. Then maybe people would realize that the PC development process is inferior, because the release-and-patch system coupled with overly aggressive marketing pressure and non-standard/evolving hardware has sent PC games straight into the toilet. The Xbox version is an innocent victim here, but will get screwed the hardest. Time to review the policy on accepting ports of PC games again.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Anonymous Coward]

A 2 year old computer that can outperform a 2 1/2 year old console.

Outperform? Then how come the XBox can play Theif 3, and you won't meet the requirements? Or Halo? Or Halo 2 when it comes out? Or just about anything else new.

I guess if Half-Life is your idea of new, then a 2 yr old PC is great. Me, I like to keep up with the times.

Re:This should happen more often...

[sw33tjimmy]

Are you a nimwit? You're arguing that a PC title is superior to a console game simply because it allows dev's to release unfinished games and patch them later? u r so smrat! PC is teh winxorrz!11

Re:This should happen more often...

[jroop]

I believe that his argument is that, regardless of what platform they are made for, modern games are routinely released with bugs. The PC platform is relatively easy to patch for. Consoles are not. Are you going to argue that console systems are better because they will somehow force developers to adopt better QA practices and eliminate bugs. Very utopian... and unrealistic.

That developers release programs with bugs in them is not a direct result of the ability of the developer to release later patches. It is a factor, but a more important factor is that the consumers whine, stomp their feet, type IN ALL CAPS, and otherwise make a idiot of themselves if the game does not come out quickly. Couple that with the growing complexity of modern games (perhaps the most important factor) and you are destined to have bugs slip through whatever QA system the developer's have.

jr

Re:This should happen more often...

[fireduck]

"Then maybe people would realize that the PC development process is inferior"

I don't think the PC development process is inferior, per se; rather some developers don't give QA the full attention it needs. A number of studios release products which have far fewer bugs than your typical PC game. Take Blizzard for example. Yes, their games have bugs, but unless you've got some seriously weird hardware, chances are the average player will never encounter a game impacting bug playing the retail version.

But things aren't all rosy on the console side either. The most recent console game I'm playing, Harvest Moon, It's a Wonderful Life, is full of problems. Even ignoring the numerous, obvious translation errors, I've had farm animals just disappear on me. I know they are there somewhere, as they're still listed in my ledger, but I can't find 'em. Game stopping bug? no. But a bug none-the-less. Obviously, the game needed more time in QA.

Re:This should happen more often...

[LordPixie]

... a more important factor is that the consumers whine, stomp their feet, type IN ALL CAPS, and otherwise make a idiot of themselves if the game does not come out quickly.

It should be noted that producers are compounding this problem themselves. (Yes, the gamers are still to blame too) Just about any big-production game gets obscenely hyped. Press releases say what the game "will" do long before any features are really finalized, much less coded. The PR machine gets working as soon as humanly possible. This unsurprisingly leads to innaccurate release dates, and a production time that 'seems' overly long simply because gamers have known about the game from the instant the first design document is written.


--LordPixie

Re:This should happen more often...

[brotherscrim]

If by "meet the requirements" you mean "run absolutely everything at the highest possible settings," then I suppose you have a point.

People are always trotting out this "you must buy a new video card every 20 minutes or you can't play any games" line - it's b.s. I use the integrated GeForce4 that came on my shuttle's mobo and I can play plenty of games, and they look mighty fine at that.

Re:This should happen more often...

[jroop]

Agreed. I recall waiting on Enemy Territoty, the sequal to Return to Castle Wolfenstein. The game consisted of two parts, single-player and multi-player, that were being developed by two different companies. Eventually, Activision, the publisher, pulled the single-player project because the contractor was unable to produce the game that was designed. They went on to release the multiplayer portion of the game as a free download. But this was an unusual response for a company, IMHO. In most cases, I suspect that the publisher would just ram the single-player game through, warts and all, and let it earn some money in its failure.

I found this a remarkable feat. Rather than add to the bad blood created by cancelling the project altogether, they release the game for free (with PunkBuster support). The game proved quite popular and continues to remain fairly popular. It's my opinion that they did this to keep the Wolfenstein franchise alive in the eyes of gamers while they moved onto the next game engine - be that Doom3 or Quake4.

I don't have or play Thief 3 so I cannot really judge how important this bug is. But it strikes me that people aren't complaining about poor graphics, bad gameplay, predictable plotlines, boring characters... I've been thinking about trying the game (on PC - I don't have an XBox or a PS2). Given that a patch will no doubt be available for the PC to fix this bug, I am not that concerned.

jr

Re:This should happen more often...

[hambonewilkins]

It should be noted that producers are compounding this problem themselves. (Yes, the gamers are still to blame too) Just about any big-production game gets obscenely hyped. Press releases say what the game "will" do long before any features are really finalized, much less coded. The PR machine gets working as soon as humanly possible. This unsurprisingly leads to innaccurate release dates, and a production time that 'seems' overly long simply because gamers have known about the game from the instant the first design document is written.

I'm sorry, I just heard someone say "Halo". Excuse me.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Dachannien]

OTOH, marketers will realize that they can push PC development release dates a lot harder than they can for console games, which is better for the bottom line (money now is always better than the same amount of money later). Hurray for marketing!

Re:This should happen more often...

[StocDred]

Are you going to argue that console systems are better because they will somehow force developers to adopt better QA practices and eliminate bugs. Very utopian... and unrealistic.

Yes, I will argue that. Because they do. Is there a groundswell opinion that "console games are usually buggy, so buyer beware"? No, there isn't. 99% of the time, they work and they work perfectly. The good console game devs know that they do not get a second chance to fix their game, so they have to get it right the first time or risk falling on their face in the marketplace.

The PC game world on the other hand, it's common thought that if you buy a game, you better start haunting websites and newsgroups for the inevitable mention of an upcoming patch. I'm not saying that patches shouldn't exist, just that the ability is completely abused and should not be seen as an amazing benefit of PC games.

I'll go Redundant here and point out that the hardware environment is responsible for a lot of this. But this Thief problem was not... it could have been found and should have been found... it was rushed, it was unchecked, it is typical.

And I don't accept a 'complexity' excuse for one second. Games will always push that envelope. That's no excuse for releasing something buggy.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Silverlancer]

Most games don't require much in terms of graphics, even though companies and players make a big deal out of it. Its processor speed that matters. In a recent test, replacing a 9800 XT with an X800XT running Far Cry on 1600by1200 gave a 5% performance boost. And in UT2004, a GeForce 3, even a GeForce 4 MX can run it just fine.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Eivind]

Also, buyers of console-games expect less bugs, so it's sort of a self-strengthening circle.

Of the maybe two dozen ps2 games I've had, only one had problems which seriously impeded game-play, namely Dark Chronicle 2 which simply hung on me something like 4-5 times.

So, I searched on the net and found out that I wasn't the only one with this experience (i.e. not just a bad disk or something.) and returned it to the store for a full refund.

I can't imagine it's good for profits if too many customers start doing that. Maybe if people started doing that with PC-games, then the quality would improve. Problem is, a lot more often the shop will try to weasel out, claiming that the "real" problem is that you've got crap ram/bad video-drivers/a virus/unsupported hardware or something like that.

With a PS2 that's a lot less likely to happen, especially if you bougth the PS2 in the same shop and it's still under warranty, like I did. If they tried that, I'd simply ask if they really think I should return my PS2 for a replacement, given that it works perfectly with all my other games.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Anonymous Coward]

Console games push the graphical evelope, but not necessarily the complexity envelope. Non-linear/multi-path games of today would be difficult to eliminate all bugs, and when you throw in the one-shot chance of console platforms, the process becomes almost impossible. That's why most of the console games are predominately linear. Granted there are exceptions, but it seems that more often than not, bugs do rear their ugly head with the exceptions.

KotOR had bugs that were unpatchable on the Xbox. They weren't showstoppers, but they were bothersome. It'll be interesting to see how trouble free Jade Empire will be (although there may not be as open gameplay as KotOR).

Re:This should happen more often...

[jroop]

I will agree that *current* console QA is superior to PC game QA - at least on its face. But, as someone else noted, console games are generally more linear than PC games. As the console games expand their flexibility and complexity they are also going to expand their potential for bugs. No amount of QA is going to eliminate bugs. If console developers maintain their current level of QA but increase the scope of complexity of their games (as they are doing), they are going to have more bugs. If they increase their QA efforts to maintain their bug-free integrity, then the price of the console games will have to rise to cover the additional costs.

I believe that console systems of the future will eventually have an online patching system. It will be more automated and thus simpler to use than that which exists for PCs. This will require rewritable media - which can create problems of its own. But development of such a system, regardless of how it is implemented, will allow developers to create the sloppy code that is being bemoaned in regards to PC games. Are you ready for your buggy future? :)

Games do 'push the envelope'.. but PC games push the envelope much farther than console games. Both in terms of graphics and in terms of gameplay.

jr

Re:This should happen more often...

[StocDred]

they increase their QA efforts to maintain their bug-free integrity, then the price of the console games will have to rise to cover the additional costs.

Why? New console games have been in the $40-50 for the last couple generations. The complexity level certainly went up between the PS1 era and the PS2 era, and the price did not go up. In fact, for most first-party Sony games, the price went down. (Average price being $40 rather than $50.)

I believe that console systems of the future will eventually have an online patching system.

I hope not. Once you make the gaming process unwieldy, you lose people. More specifically, you lose the casual gamers, the families, that drive sales.

but PC games push the envelope much farther than console games. Both in terms of graphics and in terms of gameplay.

I accept that PCs push graphics further and faster, but that takes us back to the evolving/non-standard hardware issue. One poster here claimed that he routinely runs new games on his older system by dragging down all the graphics sliders (and he seemed proud of it.) Where's the benefit to that if users have to purposefully downgrade the graphics?

But gameplay? That's another issue. When you say that console games are more linear, I don't think you're comparing PC to console, you're more likely comparing MMORPGs to platformers. There are plenty of non-linear, complicated console games. And there's much more overall variety on the console game racks than on the PC racks. I'll take variety and polish over "This Year's Prettiest Way To Score Headshots."

Here's an example that I expect most /.ers will hate: Pokemon. Those damn little GBA games have an incredibly complicated stats management system, once you total up all the possible permutations of creatures/attacks/skills/stats/items/weaknesses and apply the math of it all. There's quite a lot going on under the hood, and that's "just" a Game Boy game. I would liken that to all the skills/items etc of any PC MMORPG. The only differences being the graphics and the theming.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Anonymous Coward]

Spoken like someone who has no real experience in software.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Anonymous Coward]

...rather some developers don't give QA the full attention it needs.

To take it further, I think they don't give it the attention it needs because they have to keep release deadlines and the companies know they can release patches.

Re:This should happen more often...

[Dark Nexus]

I finished Theif 3 last week, on my PC. Cranked up all the settings too.

YOU MEAN

[Anonymous Coward]

Game Developers don't do adequate testing? No way! I refuse to believe it.

Sigh, this is just one more slap in the face of gamers everywhere. Companies will put millions into advertising and salaries for celebrity programmers, but then budget nothing for Q&A.

And how the hell did Microsoft sign off on this? Isn't the promise of console games that they will be of higher quality, as a result of mandatory licensing fees? Isn't that why we pay more than PC gamers? Looks like that $10 markup is all for nothing.

Re:YOU MEAN

[esac17]

thanks for the obligatory microsoft bash, it had to come out somewhere. lets blame MS for the poor programming of 3rd parties just like everyone has been doing for years. Thief is not published by microsoft game studios which is where microsoft 'signs off' on it.

Re:YOU MEAN

[Anonymous Coward]

Except that the publishers had to pay extra money to publish on the XBox. That money went to Microsoft, so that Theif 3 could be certified for the XBox console.

Part of that certification process should be QA, ie. making sure that buggy games aren't released for XBox. This is supposed to be one of the plusses of console gaming: you have someone who has an interest in making sure only properly tested games get released.

So yes, Microsoft does have a share in the problems with Theif 3 on the XBox. I would say the same of Nintendo if it were released on Game Cube, or of Sony if it was put out for the PS2. I am hardly a Microsoft basher; I have an XBox and think its great. I also think I should get a higher quality product, given that I'm paying a premium for it.

Now, care to respond to my actual points, rather than whoring for karma?

Re:YOU MEAN

[jrc313]

Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo all have QA processes that games must go through before they can be released on their platforms - regardless of who produces it. Edge magazine did an interesting feature a while back that described what the processes entailed at each of the console makers.

Re:YOU MEAN

[gl4ss]

sorry, but did you understand the bash? no you didn't. it was a bash against their inability to control their licensees.

the platform is supposedly better because of their _required_ licensing they *can*(and according to them do) control what gets shipped to the shops and what doesn't. they act as if they control the quality, so they'd better deliver that promise as well..

Re:YOU MEAN

[one4nine4two]

And yet there's tons of terrible games out there. Bottom line is, if MS thinks Thief 3 will make money as is, they're gonna sell it. Besides, it's not MS's responsibility to find a bug like this. There's no way they can put the kind of playtesting into every game that the actual developer can put into it. It's obvious, though unfortunate, that this bug was simply overlooked. No rushing it out the door or anything. I'm sure this is a very easy bug to fix, Ion Storm just fucked up.

WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

is this

perhaps requiring a full recall (Microsoft doesn't allow the Xbox Live service to be used for anything other than patches that affect online play.)"

so they are crippling their own consol by not allowing buggy games to be fixed.....I normally don't mind MS, but this just takes the cake....

Re:WTF

[JVert]

Frankly its just xbox holding the developers accountable. Bugs have been around longer then software if you let someone patch you WILL get buggier games in the future. It comes down to numbers, we can add x feature for $3,000 and make the game this much better or we can test it all over again and MAYBE we will find something to fix. If they can patch after shipment they will just let the gamers do the testing.

Re:WTF

[Channard]

so they are crippling their own consol by not allowing buggy games to be fixed.....I normally don't mind MS, but this just takes the cake....

I believe this was because MS didn't want to be in a position where developers saw Live as a way to get into the same release and patch rut as PC games have got into. MS probably didn't want that stigma attaced Buggy console games are actually far less common that buggy PC games simply because there's no easy patch mechanism in place. The only bugged console games that spring to mind, apart from this one, are WWF No Mercy on the N64, and Morrowind on the X-Box, though Slashdotters could probably think of more.

Re:WTF

[Vampyre_Dark]

Ah WWF No Mercy. About 50% of the cartrdiges had bad batteries causing the games to lose all their save data. It really sucks when a year and a half of stats and create-a-wrestlers disapear.

Morrowind was more tolerable. At least nothing was ever lost. Well.. except maybe all the loading time from reseting after crashes.

WWE RAW2 - Game is so buggy at times it's barely playable. At times you literally lose control of your character. How nice. The PC will often try to pin the player in excess of 20 times in a row. The player is unable to get up in between these pinnings. Basically it's 5 minutes of button mashing and cursing. :) Every season mode match at exactly the 3:00 mark, every single enemy of yours in the league will run in to interfere in your match.. except.. THEY ATTACK YOUR OPPONENT! The poor AI and bad programming make playing anything but a normal match pointless. But oh well.. that's my only choice so I have to enjoy it for what it is, and be thankful that the dev team was fired.

Buffy 2: Chaos Bleeds - Check out the official message boards. You will see the same repated messages over and over. In on mode you can't play more than 5 minutes most of the time without a crash. In the story mode / single player game most copies would lock up the console at the same specific points for all users. Nothing was ever done about it. It really sucks constantly replaying through 2 hour levels and having it crash right before the end.
The only way I could see all of the game was to get a game save from the xbox mag that had all levels opened. The first game was great, but this sequel was handed off to another team who complettly killed it off.

I know of a few more. But I don't own them, so I can't do the bugs justice. :)

Re:WTF

[gl4ss]

well.. you know.. microsoft COULD very well have their own testing team of say, 20-100 players that would OK the game before it went to disc production. and if that team found the game to either suck too much or just be plain buggy they would tell the developer/publishing house that they wouldn't get a license unless they fixed it..
It's not a really obscure bug anyways. ..or maybe they're giving the developers more freedom(as to what comes to quality) in issues like this because they want those games on xbox rather than on other platforms..

Re:WTF

[Pxtl]

Actually, because of its massive complexity, FF6 (3 in America) was frought with bugs. Still didn't prevent it from being considered the best RPG ever by most enthusiasts of the genre.

Re:WTF

[Chibi]

I never finished Buffy 2 on Xbox. What a joke. There was a point in the game where you need to pass a metal detector. You get around it by putting a specific item into a security tray (like when you put your keys in the tray at airport security). Anyway, this part of the game was driving me crazy. The problem? The code was written so that if this specific item wasn't in the tray, the sensors go off, and the security doors close. The problem was that I didn't even have this particular item on me. I shouldn't have been setting off the metal detector! Ugh, what an awful sequel to a great first game (and, yes, I was aware that they were two different development teams).

Re:WTF

[Allison Geode]

actually, capcom vs. snk 2 for xbox had a patch that repaired a sound glitch that made the music cut out after doing ending a round with a super move. (the music was supposed to cut out than cut back in) so it seems that some developers do patch non-multiplayer glitches via live.

Re:WTF

[Vampyre_Dark]

I agree. The first game was great wether you liked the series or not. Somehow the team that handled the second (Eurocom?) Destroyed the second game. They messed around the the engine. The most annoying thing is that the CAMERA COLIDES WITH THE LEVEL GEOMETRY! Killed the game. Also the fact that the actual fighting controls were nerfed didn't help.

Re:WTF

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know if they do it anymore, but Nintendo used to do that a few years ago, and people bitched that it was impossible to get Nintendo's approval to green light a game for their consoles.

Sue Them

[Mr.Dippy]

Screw the recall. You could probably do a class action lawsuit against the developers of the game. I have no clue about how the law works but couldn't you make the argument that buying a console game is like entering into a contractual obligation where one party expects a certain level of software development professionalism? I say sue the bastards.

Re:Sue Them

[TheRealMindChild]

Um, the game PLAYS FINE. You people need to quit thinking you can sue over every mistake that is made. If you are a developer, I ALREADY KNOW you have gotten a product to a client that has had a bug or two. The nature of this one is pretty obscure. Im sure it wasnt "lack of professionalism" that missed it.

Re:Sue Them

[Dark Nexus]

Yes, you could sue. And for winning you would get... a patched copy of the game, which you would have gotten out of a recall with MUCH less effort.

Try suing for damages, and you'd be laughed out of court and forced to pay for the defendant's legal costs.

Re:Sue Them

[fireduck]

"The nature of this one is pretty obscure."

Anyone that has ever played Thief, unless they were looking for a serious challenge (and had 4 hours to kill), has probably saved their game from time to time. This isn't an obscure bug that occurs only when you're in the pantry holding the knife and looking at your feet. Anytime you save the game during a mission, and then re-load that save game, enemy AI gets reset to normal. That's major and something that should have been found during QA. There's little excuse for having a save that doesn't save the state of the game.

Re:Sue Them

[TheRealMindChild]

I disagree. The intelligence of the AI isnt something that is explicitly visible. You could wrongly assume you are just doing good, or the likes.

Re:Sue Them

[Channard]

I disagree. The intelligence of the AI isnt something that is explicitly visible. You could wrongly assume you are just doing good, or the likes.

Except that the AI is one of the things to have got a lot of press in the various Thief 3 preview articles. So people buying the game for the better AI end up disappointed.

Re:Sue Them

[fireduck]

having played thief 1 and 2, i think it would be fairly obvious to notice whether a guard blindly walks past an open door, or looks in to see why its open (which is supposed to be the behavior at harder AI levels). It seems that in just the testing of the AI, this should have been an obvious flaw.

I'm well aware that QA on such a game must be a daunting task, but this is not a bug like Starcraft's immortal drones which you could only produce under extreme conditions (and which took the players months to uncover). The orignal discoverer of the error provided a simple test: find an enemy and save the game. Let the enemy hit you and watch how much damage you take. Reload your save game, and let him hit you again. Different amount of damage done. Easy proof of a bug and doesn't require any sort of extreme conditions to achieve. Bottom line is something like that should have been found.

Re:Sue Them

[Anonymous Coward]

Jesus god you're a faggot.

Re:Sue Them

[mog007]

Ion Storm used the same modified Unreal engine on Thief 3 that was used on Deus Ex 2. Any form of AI would have been a welcomed addition to that engine.

A very very very sad day :(

[222]

When most people were ga-ga'ing over halflife, i was cuddled in the corner of a very dark room filling my pockets in Thief 1. It really changed the way i looked at pc games, and had the most immersive gameplay i had ever seen...
Flash forward to today, and you see Thief 3 (albeit a fine, fine title) obviously rushed out the door, and most of the dev team laid off. What is it with this industries self destructive tendancies? I mean, really. Isnt the goal to make money? And isnt that a product of producing a good game?
I just want to scream at my monitor when i see things like this happen. Just remember, the fault probably doesnt lay on the dev team when something like this happens, something tells me a phb thought he could shave a buck or 2 and went for it.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[LordPixie]

I mean, really. Isnt the goal to make money? And isnt that a product of producing a good game?

Yes, indeed. Much like the formula for profit in music or movies is a high-quality original release. Titles that are carried on the strength of name recognition, sex appeal, or herd mentality just don't cut it.

Oh, wait...maybe that's a bad example...


--LorDPixie

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[SandSpider]

Flash forward to today, and you see Thief 3 (albeit a fine, fine title) obviously rushed out the door, and most of the dev team laid off. What is it with this industries self destructive tendancies? I mean, really. Isnt the goal to make money? And isnt that a product of producing a good game?

Sadly, no. The current tactic is to keep from losing money, which means optimizing the development cycle to a minimum amount of time, thus reducing overhead such as rent, by employing far more people at any given time than are necessary. Then, when the game is done, you don't want to keep paying salary for all the extra people, so you let them go. This also has the benefit of reducing the amount of vacation time you need to give people, and it keeps you from continuing to employ burnt-out people. Because everyone will be burnt out, since there's been mandatory overtime for 3 months, forcing people to work 70-80 hour weeks to get the game done.

It is very sad, and it will eventually change, but not immediately by any means. Personally, I think there needs to be a union for video game professionals. Unfortunately, too many college kids are happy to "live the dream" of working in video games, so it would be very difficult to start one; you'd always have some punk kid ready to take your place and put in 80-100 hour weeks for at least 3 years before becoming a shell of his former self. I've seen it happen far too often.

=Brian

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[nine-times]

you see Thief 3 (albeit a fine, fine title) obviously rushed out the door

Personally, I don't find it obvious it was rushed out the door. Admittedly, this is a rather large bug, but I've already played through the entire game and found it immensely enjoyable. I found it to be a generally worthy successor to "Thief". I didn't even notice this game (though I noticed it was pretty easy), and I didn't really notice any other bugs either.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[Anonymous Coward]

It probably doesn't help that games are hyped in the market while possibly early in the dev cycle. This can create a contention between shipping a game of high quality and shipping a game before the hype wears off.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[BW_Nuprin]

I lived the dream for two years before I quit my job... where can you go to live the dream for 3?

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[Colazar]

Another example of the biggest problem with our economic system today: short term thinking.

I would argue that you are far better off arranging your company so that you have a smaller staff (which allows you smaller overhead per month) and a longer development time per game, and focus on quality. You'd get fewer games out per year, but they'd have a higher chance of being hits due to quality. That should translate into greater sales over time, which is how you can actually make a profit.

Much easier said than done. And the way the retail market is set up (high turnover, can't keep titles on the shelf for long) doesn't support it. But that's how it *should* work. It's closer to the book publishing model than the movie production model. But that's a better way to run a healthy company.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[cgenman]

Unfortunately, too many college kids are happy to "live the dream" of working in video games, so it would be very difficult to start one; you'd always have some punk kid ready to take your place and put in 80-100 hour weeks for at least 3 years before becoming a shell of his former self.

Yeah, sorry about that Brian. I'm trying to cut back my hours. But as the new guy I'm expected to wow and dazzle. This is my chance to stake a claim to my chosen profession, and as such I need to prove myself... Justify myself against all of the people out there who might have already implemented distance-based reflection maps or authored giant, multi-segment levels with unnoticably repeating geometry. I've got to do something to counterbalance my lack of experience.

I'd love to see a union, but if you asked me 6 months ago would I be willing to be a scab? Probably.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[Superliminal]

It is very sad, and it will eventually change, but not immediately by any means. Personally, I think there needs to be a union for video game professionals.

You mean like IGDA? JOIN.

Unfortunately, too many college kids are happy to "live the dream" of working in video games

True.. a lot of places hire graduates because "they have more to prove,".. e.g., they're willing to work a lot for nothing. But what those zillion kids don't have is release titles.. hang in there a while, get some good titles under your belt, and you'll find it a lot easier to get into positions at good studios (who put out bestselling titles, retain their workforce, and know how to (gasp) schedule.) Good studios don't want to risk their AAA titles (god, I hate that term) on a bunch of noobs. It's just how it is.

Unless you're lucky enough to land a job at a sweet place right out of school, you're going to hop around a bit as you find a place that works for you (and pays what you're worth.) If you're staying at the same place for 3 years working 80+ hour weeks, you're doing yourself a huge disservice.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[SandSpider]

I lived the dream for, oh, 9 years. I'm plenty happy doing things that aren't in the game industry now, though I know some people who are still enjoying themselves, in varying degrees.

=Brian

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[The_Quinn]

Personally, I think there needs to be a union for video game professionals

No way! Game developers are treated the way they are because there are way more would-be game developers than there are jobs. Simple market dynamic

I wanted to be a game programmer too, but then I realized that getting paid chump change for being treated like a pogo-ball with some manager jumping on my head was really stupid.

Now I solve interesting programming problems in a different market, and play all the friggin games I want, cuz I got the time and the cash.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[Anonymous Coward]

Troll?

[shakes head at slashdot moderators]

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[SandSpider]

Personally, I think there needs to be a union for video game professionals

No way! Game developers are treated the way they are because there are way more would-be game developers than there are jobs. Simple market dynamic

Um, you did read the very next sentence, which said, 'Unfortunately, too many college kids are happy to "live the dream" of working in video games, so it would be very difficult to start one; you'd always have some punk kid ready to take your place and put in 80-100 hour weeks for at least 3 years before becoming a shell of his former self.'

=Brian

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[SandSpider]

Oh, no need to apologize. It makes for a difficult industry, but it's the way life is. Just try not to burn yourself out, and when you have the opportunity, get a job in a proper company that doesn't mistreat its employees.

=Brian

P.S. I have no idea why you were moderated troll for that, btw.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[SandSpider]

I didn't see anything in IGDA's charter that said anything about keeping businesses in line, which is more what I was looking for than a trade organization.

As for the release titles thing, yeah, that helps. My own portfolio was tainted by releasing a bunch of licensed titles for Mattel, which is certain death when trying to find a job making games for hardcore gamers. That and I just don't care enough to go through the pain of the industry any more without awfully good reason. But I think it's fine advice for others.

Incidentally, Superliminal, check out the URL of my web site. Heh.

=Brian

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[The_Quinn]

Um, you did read the very next sentence, which said, 'Unfortunately, too many college kids are happy to "live the dream" of working in video games

The point is that kids willingly and knowingly subject themselves to harsh working conditions precisely for the love of the work and the prestige of working on the games. As long as someone has these values, it is there right to subject themselves to those conditions. This is their free choice - there is no point in suggesting a union. People who don't like those working conditions don't have to get into the games industry. And by the way, pray that unions don't someday rule the game industry. Game companies will have to hire more programmers to get less work done at a much greater expense, with crappier, more expensive, non-innovative games.

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[SandSpider]

The point is that kids willingly and knowingly subject themselves to harsh working conditions precisely for the love of the work and the prestige of working on the games.

Yes, I know that was the point. The reason I know is because I made it originally.

Incidentally, unions don't have to be a bad thing. Yes, they can certainly get out of hand, and most of us have experienced situations in which this happens. However, unions are not the universally bad things you make them out to be. There are plenty of good unions existing even today in the US.

Game companies will have to hire more programmers to get less work done at a much greater expense, with crappier, more expensive, non-innovative games.

That seems unlikely. It would take far too much work to dip lower in the barrel than we are now. Zing!

=Brian

Re:A very very very sad day :(

[The_Quinn]

Maybe there are good unions. I've never heard of one. The only ones I'm familiar with personally basically hurt good workers by placing seniority over competence and driving money and power into the hands of sleazy beauracrat types.

That seems unlikely. It would take far too much work to dip lower in the barrel than we are now. Zing!

Ouch! Sounds like you've been very dissatisfied. However, not everyone shares your opinion. Must ... put away ... WarcraftIII ... must ... not buy ... Everquest II

ZAM!

Oh comeon

[Anonymous Coward]

Who the FUCK cares for this lame shit? Grow up, shitskull.

Re:Oh comeon

[Anonymous Coward]

MOD UP +5 Informative and Isightful too!

bad idea man

[Iscariot_]

The xbox has limited HD space. If they allowed developers to release patches, it would more rapidly fill users drives and it would open the floodgates on bug acceptibility at launch. i.e. "It's okay to release in this state because we can patch it later..."

I think a better solution would be to send replacement discs with fixes to those that have already purchased the game, and begin putting pre-patched versions on the shelves.

As I said, the last thing we (users) want is for buggy games to be acceptable. It is important that Microsoft exert the same level of quality control required for the other two consoles.

Re:bad idea man

[marco0009]

Or a better idea would be for Microsoft to actually allow the use of modded XBoxes with their enlarged hard drives. Not only could Microsoft potentially make a profit off of people buying "certified XBox hard drives", but they could increase the number of players on XBox Live as well.

Re:bad idea man

[bigman2003]

I think it would reduce the number of people on Xbox Live.

The mod community is not huge, but if they started going onto Live with a box that can be hacked, and have cheats installed, a lot of other subscribers would drop Live.

One of the best things about Live is the very limited amount of 'cheating' which normally has to do with people exploiting parts of the game, not modifying it to give them an advantage. I absolutely hated cheaters on PC games, so Live is a refreshing change from that.

Re:bad idea man

[enamore22]

Yes, the XBox has limited HD space. But the way it's used should be up to users. I'd rather have my AI patched to a working state rather than downloading 15 different color bathing suits for DOA. I think offering a patch to users on Live is a good idea. Although, there does still need to be options for users who aren't online or don't want to fill their HD's.

Well, that explains why it isn't that hard

[Slyght]

I was wondering why even on expert difficulty, the enemies seemed pretty clueless...oh well, it's still a fun game even at normal difficulty.

Re:Well, that explains why it isn't that hard

[Channard]

I was wondering why even on expert difficulty, the enemies seemed pretty clueless...oh well, it's still a fun game even at normal difficulty. Exactly. Give that man a donut. It was exactly that that alerted folks to the bug - some people swearing blind the AI was great on expert mode, others saying it stunk. The people who thought it stunk had either gone through a portal twice or saved and loaded game and, joy of joys, the guards went back to their 'normal' AI level, making them about as bright as the Thief 1 and 2 guards.

Taking it seriously

[empaler]

I love statements like that... ... I'm still waiting for a 3Dfx patch for Commanche3 ;-)

Remember the 80's?

[Pluvius]

The PC version should be relatively easy to patch, but fixing the Xbox version would be trickier, perhaps requiring a full recall

Remember when console games that had serious bugs just didn't get licensed? Boy, those were the days.

Rob

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember when console games that had serious bugs just didn't get licensed? Boy, those were the days.

Off the top of my head, I recall that Final Fantasy 3 had some game-killing and save-destroying (!) bugs involving the sketch ability of one of the characters. Here are the details. I'd consider that a showstopper.

It happens. And in this case, Square and Nintendo did nothing about it. No recall, they simply said, "don't sketch", thereby rendering one of the characters completely useless. At least Ion Storm is recognizing there's a propblem.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Dr. Manhattan]

Remember when console games that had serious bugs just didn't get licensed?

Just a couple months ago Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow was released with a bug that would crash the system if you stayed in the game browser for more than ten seconds. Hard to imagine how that one got missed...

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Rallion]

No recall, they simply said, "don't sketch", thereby rendering one of the characters completely useless.

That's like saying that I've just thrown some paint up in the air, rendering the sky blue.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Anonymous Coward]

IIRC, Square released another version of the game where that bug is fixed (look for the FF3 v1.1 ROM). Unfortunately, it is almost impossible to tell which version is which just by looking at the real thing (yes, I have an 1.0 cartridge). And there were other bugs in the Japanese version that were fixed in the first American release, which shows that Nintendo and Square weren't *that* lazy.

No recall, they simply said, "don't sketch", thereby rendering one of the characters completely useless.

I don't think this is a big deal. Relm is way more useful when she is using her Control ability, anyway. And her spellcasting abilities are great too, since she has the highest natural Mag.Pwr. status of all characters in the game.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Anonymous Coward]

Courtesy of Dictionary.com
render (v.): To cause to become; make: The news rendered her speechless.

If you're going to be a grammar nazi, do your research first.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Pluvius]

Off the top of my head, I recall that Final Fantasy 3 had some game-killing and save-destroying (!) bugs involving the sketch ability of one of the characters.

Since the bug generally only occurred when Relm sketched an invisible creature, it was pretty rare. A lot of people didn't even use Relm's sketching ability in the first place, much less go around sketching everything in sight. Compare that to a game that has a bug that has a 100% chance of occurring when one saves his game; just about everyone uses the save feature.

Another example of a major bug in the middle years of console gaming is at the end of the optional Ancient Cave in Lufia 2. The graphics are competely gliched up on the 99th level of the cave, though it is still possible to blindly make your way to the boss at the end. Of course, most people who played that game (before emulation, anyway) never got that far, so this is another example of a bug that really didn't mean much.

Rob

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Pluvius]

He's trying to say that Relm was already useless.

Rob

Re:Remember the 80's?

[demana]

Since the bug generally only occurred when Relm sketched an invisible creature, it was pretty rare. A lot of people didn't even use Relm's sketching ability in the first place, much less go around sketching everything in sight. Compare that to a game that has a bug that has a 100% chance of occurring when one saves his game; just about everyone uses the save feature.

What's more significant--the likelihood of a bug or it's severity? Is it better to have a common bug that doesn't break the game (Thief), or a relatively rare bug that can crash the game completely and corrupt your save file (FF3).

Re:Remember the 80's?

[CashCarSTAR]

No, it didn't only happen when Relm sketched an invisible creature.

It also happened if Relm sketched a certain enemy, Zone Eater I believe it was called (The enemy if it sucked your entire team down, you went into the cave where you could find Gogo.

When you did that, your whole inventory and/or saved games could/would be messed up. Things like 255 of certain items you couldn't even get.

Mind you, being 14 at the time, it wasn't a bug, but a feature.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[1arkhaine]

Happily for the European/Australian crowd, that room was fixed. It was hell scary going through the dungeon to see a...blob!!

Of course, the game was called Lufia, not Lufia 2 for us, which sure caused some confusion when I was looking for it on the internet some years back...

Re:Remember the 80's?

[cgenman]

Another example of a major bug in the middle years of console gaming is at the end of the optional Ancient Cave in Lufia 2. The graphics are competely gliched up on the 99th level of the cave, though it is still possible to blindly make your way to the boss at the end. Of course, most people who played that game (before emulation, anyway) never got that far, so this is another example of a bug that really didn't mean much.

Considering I couldn't get even to the 50th level of the Ancient castle because Lufia 2 crashed and ate my save... twice... I would consider a total graphical glitch to be the least of the team's offences.

The Relm sketching bug, however, was priceless. It took her from the realm of a useless additional character to one of might and importance. Sure, if you sketched invisible things there was a pretty good chance you'd spend 20 minutes selling off thousands of unusable dirks, but small price to pay for an exploit that might give you a dozen masamunes, twenty glass swords, two lightsabers, and about a million other random useless items (frying pans, etc). Total corruption of your save was also rare, even when the glitch did occur. I wouldn't be surprised if an unofficial grouping of QA people saw the problem and decided that it improved the character significantly. Sometimes bugs like that make it into the shipping game on strength of their side effects.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[blincoln]

Remember when console games that had serious bugs just didn't get licensed? Boy, those were the days.

I'm sure if you're still willing to pay $50+ for 8-bit games with primitive 2D graphics and FM synth audio, and gameplay engines so simple that they could be developed by a team 1/10th the size of a modern development staff, you could have lots of games with no serious bugs.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Pluvius]

What's more significant--the likelihood of a bug or it's severity?

The FF3 bug was severe. The Thief bug is severe and likely.

Rob

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Pluvius]

I don't think it was quite as simple as you're suggesting to create a good 8-bit game fifteen years ago. But I see your point.

Even so, it makes you wonder why console licensing systems still exist. Well, besides old fashioned capitalism, of course.

Rob

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Guppy06]

Yeah, back before I got Beyond Good & Evil for my GCN. I'm still pissed about that!

I loved that game right on up 'til the point where I lost my partner to a glitch and got stuck in the dungeon I was in (I need him to open the door to get out). I didn't know I needed to make multiple, iterative saves in a game. Where can I get a DAT drive for my GCN?

And beyond the fustration of having to start the game all over again (which I haven't done yet because of it) there's the fustration of knowing I can't do a damned thing about it. Ubisoft says they don't do returns, only the retailers do that. The stores only care about the condition of the media, not the crap code that's on it, so nothing can happen on that front.

That game kicked so much ass, too. That'll be the last time I spend any money on anything with the word "Ubisoft" on it.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[DeepHurtn!]

Remember when console games that had serious bugs just didn't get licensed? Boy, those were the days.

To be fair, this seems like it would be a difficult bug for the Microsoft guidelines people to catch. I mean, if you and a few other people were given a few days to test *all* of the game, would you catch that the advanced AI wasn't all too advanced? Maybe, maybe not. But even if they did catch it, who knows if it would actually cause the game to fail. Somehow I doubt it -- all anyone seems to care about are crashes and legal/licensing issues.

Anyways, I came this close today to buying the game. Now I think I'll wait to see how this blows over.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[one4nine4two]

Or you could just buy a Game Genie? If you're going to cheat your way through FF6/3 you're insane and you're just wasting 70 hours of your life.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Anonymous Coward]

I played right through this game on my (European) NGC without even knowing that there was a bug.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[cgenman]

Or you could just buy a Game Genie [gamefaqs.com]? If you're going to cheat your way through FF6/3 you're insane and you're just wasting 70 hours of your life.

Well, the first time, yes. The bug wasn't discovered until the third time I was playing through. (I bought it the first weekend it came out here, it wasn't discovered for several months).

I do own a Game Genie, actually, but I don't use it until after I've played through a game once or twice. Why ruin the experience? But also, why not milk the experience for all that it is worth once you have had it a few times?

BTW, FF6/3 was only a 30 hour game. It wasn't until FF7 that the series hit the 70 hour mark, and even that was while taking your time... the first true 70 hour console game that I know of is Xenogears, which took 65 hours rushing.

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Pluvius]

To be fair, this seems like it would be a difficult bug for the Microsoft guidelines people to catch.

1. Check settings of game (if the testers are given proper tools, this wouldn't be too hard).
2. Save game.
3. Load game.
4. Check settings of game.

Seems to me like checking to make sure the settings of the game haven't changed after it's been reloaded would be part of the routine checklist. Maybe it wouldn't have been as ridiculously obvious as that Pandora Tomorrow bug someone mentioned, but it probably should've been caught.

all anyone seems to care about are crashes and legal/licensing issues.

Yeah, now.

Rob

Re:Remember the 80's?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does it actually physically reset it, so that if you look at it in the options screen, it's marked as 'normal' again? Or is it still marked as 'expert' but it's really normal under the hood?

In any case, even on normal, the AI still catches doors open, notices items missing, notices when you pickpocket them, etc. Just not as often. I'm still enjoying the game even on normal mode.

Patches after release

[toolio]

"Microsoft doesn't allow the Xbox Live service to be used for anything other than patches that affect online play."

Good thing too, or we'd have a bunch of half-finished games with a "We'll patch it later" attitude.

I'm tired of being a beta tester.

Re:Patches after release

[Anonymous Coward]

"Microsoft doesn't allow the Xbox Live service to be used for anything other than patches that affect online play."

Not true. I've used Xbox Live to download extra single-player content for the original "Splinter Cell" and "Knights of the Old Republic".

Re:Patches after release

[Anonymous Coward]

I think he means in the patch department. Everyone knows that you can get some cool content off Live.

Re:Patches after release

[bigman2003]

Speaking of that...

Crimson Skies has had quite a resurgence lately, since the recent content download.

Anytime they add some new content, it usually breathes a *little* life back into the game. Crimson Skies is a great game, I just hadn't played it for 4 months or so. The new content brought be back and got me interested again, even if I don't use the content.

I also don't mind paying for the Premium content. I've bought it for Links, DDR and Mechassault.

The *only* time I've been disappointed though was the most recent course on Links. The first course, Kapalua, was great. Well worth the $4.99. The second course 'The Gallery' wasn't so hot. I haven't even finished the course yet, because it wasn't exciting enough.

So downloading content, whether free, or costing some money, is usually a pretty good deal. But if it costs money, I think it really should be 'Premium' content.

Re:Patches after release

[Drakino]

"Microsoft doesn't allow the Xbox Live service to be used for anything other than patches that affect online play."

Except for their own games. MechAssault has been patched, specificially the game loading code to close the exploit that allowed software modding the XBox. Deleting the MechAssault save data gets rid of the patch and reopens the exploit.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is there such an outcry over this? This frankly huge letter on the ionstorm forum is just over reacting. The developers now know about the bug and they've said they'll try to fix it. Suddenly going on about class action and sueing the crap out of them is not going to speed it up.

Fair enough, if the developers next week announce that they've checked and they can't be bothered to fix the bug and basically screw you then yeah, start thinking about campaigning to get this fixed.

If I was a developer this entire incident would give me a bad view of the gaming community. It portrays everybody as being obnoxious impatient asses. The developers didn't intend to release it with a bug. There is only so much testing you can do and people make MISTAKES. It's a fact of life.

Wait and see what they do basically.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

That is what they want us to do, wait until other equally stupid things distract us from this stupid thing. Then we'll forget about it.

This is a big deal man. If console games start comming out with bugs, why use them? You can't patch the games. Might as well Game on the PC.

I think that if we don't stand up for quality now, when there is a problem, we'll be screwed in the long run. It takes years for big business to figure things out for themselves.

Re:Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is there such an outcry over this?

Because CONSOLE GAMES aren't supposed to have game-breaking bugs. PC game makers (and players) are used to the "release & fix it later" bullshit, but when it carries over to console games damn right there will be an outcry.

The developers now know about the bug and they've said they'll try to fix it.

This is the kind of bug that could have been EASILY DETECTED AND FIXED within 5 minutes of playtesting before the fucking game was released.

If I was a developer this entire incident would give me a bad view of the gaming community.

This incident gives me a bad view of IonStorm's QA department, if they even have one.

Not only that...

[Fweeky]

I noticed early on that the difficulty settings specified in DEFAULTS.INI can be changed to make each difficulty level easier or harder (yeah, I'm nosy and like looking for things to tweak in games); that would be a useful intermediate "fix" to this issue, since you could specify NORMAL difficulty to be the same as EXPERT. The problem is, the difficulty isn't reset to the NORMAL specified in the .ini, but apparantly to some default setting specified in the game executable.

I spotted this a few hours after installing the game; wtf are they hiring to do their testing!?

Re:Not only that...

[meowsqueak]

Doesn't work - the problem occurs when loading a savegame, and the values in default.ini are not used in that case. They are supposed to be retrieved from the savegame, but are not and therefore remain at their *coded* defaults of 1.0. Read the threads.

Re:Not only that...

[Fweeky]

Um, that's precisely what I said: "The problem is, the difficulty isn't reset to the NORMAL specified in the .ini, but apparantly to some default setting specified in the game executable."

That's two replies which appear to have missed this; tsk!

Re:Not only that...

[meowsqueak]

My apologies - I inadvertently missed your point. After re-reading your original post, I see that we agree.

Unfortunately, that won't work.

[Channard]

Someone already thought of that - certainly owners of modded X-Boxes could also try that - but it apparently doesn't work, according to the intial post in this thread at the Ion Storm boards. Shame.

Re:I can see it now:

[sw33tjimmy]

ah! the double edged blade that is coward- logic:

possibility 1- MS allows dev's to patch game via LIVE.
constant - everyone is disgusted because MS is the badguy for allowing sloppy and shoddy game development.

possibility 2- MS does not allowing dev's to patch bugs in xbox games via LIVE... constant - everyone is disgusted because MS is essentially 'crippling their own consol(sic) by not allowing buggy games to be fixed'

Patch will come soon

[mugnyte]

I don't take this as completely crazy. Patches for bugs - and this one is somewhat obscure in the testing - happen all the time. Too bad for consoles, but I disagree with the concept of them anyway.

It does let me in on a bit of how testing occurred. When we deploy a system, there is a "dashboard" (ug, i hate the term) of all the settings in the program visible on another screen. As you walk through the application, you can check the values live. If thief had a mode to display this (and most FPS have a console that should deliver this), they'd be able to check AI settings. Perhaps they did and it still isn't working correctly - now thats a bug.

mug

Doesn't look like a showstopper to me

[Mike Hawk]

I don't have the full version yet, but I just double-checked in the demo and it appears you can set the difficulty on a per level basis. Is this true? If so, just play through a whole level without loading. Don't save and load after each enemy you manage to sneak by. That doesn't strike me as very 'expert' of a tactic.

Buy the game or don't buy it. This bug sucks, but is not a showstopper at all. A game deleting your boot sector when it is uninstalled, now thats a bug. The guy claiming to find the bug didn't shy away from making wild demands or promoting himself as a savior to gamers either. What a turnoff.

Re:Doesn't look like a showstopper to me

[Sigma 7]

If so, just play through a whole level without loading. Don't save and load after each enemy you manage to sneak by.

My experience with the Thief series is that it is not possible to go through a level once without having to resort to saved games - while it's possible to ironman levels, they either take too long to do in one standard unit of time (i.e. 1 hour, as most popular games gear themselves to), or require lots of practice to breeze through it.

Being a "slow" game, you will need to reload, and therefore encounter the dumbed down guards. It is considered slow, since you have to generally sneak around occupied areas instead of running quickly to get to your destination.

Saved games are required - there are instances in Thief 1 and 2 where you need to do specific jump. The jumping occassionally failed because you were just beyond the tolerance range for making the jump (and therefore either fell to your death or made a loud noise attracting whatever guard is available.) Also, there were a few instant-killing traps that were not visible unless you had a really good eye - something that requires either prior knowledge or save-scumming to pass through.

Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[LordPixie]

Undoubtably, bugs will happen. There isn't much anyone can do about this. But there's a deeper problem at issue here. Namely, games are being rushed out the door before they're ready. Now, this is most likely the fault of the publishers rather than the developers, but there isn't much we can do to distinguish when it comes to our purchases.

It's not like this is Ion Storm's first problem with this sort of thing. Did you try the abysmal Deus Ex II ? There were billions of issues there that should have been caught by simple playtesting. Likewise here...did no one test the difficulty settings for more than 5 minutes ?

The gaming industry really needs to learn that they can't blitz a product to market at less-than-optimal quality, and expuct the publc to shell out $50+ without complaint. Gamers are used to (virtually) blowing crap up, not grabbing their ankles and taking it from behind. PC games are complex constructions, no question about it. If you want your game to be a quality release (and thus keep customers) you have to expend a good deal of effort in QA/testing. Hell, resort to a semi-public beta if you don't have the inhouse staff to do it.


--LordPixie

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[Creepy]

It's also a rather tricky bug that may not have been caught in their testing process.

I can entirely see how their Q/A team would miss the bug - Q/A would need to be playing on hard, probably with no cheats on (otherwise, why save and reload?). Save and reload probably got some visible verification (inventory there, start point correct, etc), so that was probably checked off without further testing. Most testing probably never used save and reload - mainly because that is one of the last completed parts of the game completed. Portions of save/restore may work, but until item placement and inventory items are complete, why test it?

I admit, what they need is to have some people run through the "finished" product once or twice at every difficulty to verify there are no outstanding showstoppers, but that's not always possible (time demands), so maybe they settled on a runthrough only at moderate difficulty. Due to the limited lifespan of games (about 3 months) they probably didn't want to have an open beta (no sense leaking the code to pirates any earlier than possible).

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Gamers are used to (virtually) blowing crap up, not grabbing their ankles and taking it from behind."

I don't have ankles you insensitive clod!

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL, I would imagine that a good QA process would include playing the game on all difaculty levels...

If you have 'Time Demands' I would cut anything but the QA on a console game. It would be better to cut out color, or the ending.

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[aleonard]

The gaming industry really needs to learn that they can't blitz a product to market at less-than-optimal quality, and expuct the publc to shell out $50+ without complaint.

Sure they can. Lots of people did. Lots of people will. They've learned quite handily that gamers will buy 98% of the buggy crap put out each year, as long as it's good or from a developer they know or trust. And even then!

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure no one wants to hear an opinion from the trenches. But I've worked a number of years in both dev and QA for PC games and am not surprised either that this bug didn't get found. In fact it could have been found and not fixed properly or found and fixed and then broken again. PC and console games are so complex now that 50 or 100 testers can possibly hope to find everything that 500,000 players may encounter.

Having said that, if this was my project I'd be pissed that this got through. But it's not a game-breaker and I wouldn't move heaven and earth to patch it at all costs.

Class action lawsuits? Please. Didn't spend 5 minutes on testing difficulty levels? You run testing for a game with several million lines of code and tell me how close to 100% you catch!

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[beta21]

I was reading your post and thinking how could companies handle this. Obviously more testing but that increases the final price. And then there is the point about X-box, PS2 etc. releases with bugs.

One solution is perhaps first sell the game to PC only for a cheap price. And the public, because lets face it dev houses are not going to retreat and start proper testing themselves, plays/tests the product while patches are released.

Finally we have a stable product which can be released to the consoles which don't crash while browsing for online players (this didn;t happen to me but I can imagine how annoying it must be).

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[Anonymous Coward]

While the bug isn't at the severity level of a major crash, it still deserves to be fixed. Fact is, save and reload is a major feature and for it to be broken this way is a real problem for people who bought the game. They paid their money, they deserve to have a game that works properly.

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[elasticwings]

"The gaming industry really needs to learn that they can't blitz a product to market at less-than-optimal quality, and expuct the publc to shell out $50+ without complaint."

The Slashdot commmunity really needs to learn to check their spelling. What is "expuct" and "publc"?

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[AllUsernamesAreGone]

It's also a rather tricky bug that may not have been caught in their testing process.

Bollocks.

This can be found out by anyone who does even moderate real play in the game, and many of the fans (especailly on TTLG) pinned down the problem in hours.

If the testing team can't do it then there's something seriously wron with their testing strategies (if they even have them).

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[kubrick]

Gamers are used to (virtually) blowing crap up, not grabbing their ankles and taking it from behind.

Romero's going to make you his bitch? Suck it down? All sounds pretty homoerotic to me.

Daikatana is pretty symptomatic of the fact that games companies can spend millions of dollars producing crap, and that they expect the gaming public to just lap it up.

Re:Unfinished products rightfully get outrage.

[Creepy]

That's just the problem - few companies do moderate real play because of deadlines.

Until code cutoff, new features are always going into the code, any of which can cause bugs (alpha). At some cutoff point, only bug fixes are allowed in (beta - but cutoff is often missed for that great feature that has to go in). Most of the time spent here is play balancing and feature verification. That last week or two before release to manufacturer is probably the only real testing done on the final product ('rc' or release candidate testing). After that, the testers get moved on to planning for the next project.

I have a feeling the real problem was the complete game didn't get thoroughly tested before the publisher deadline for an E3 release. Lack of thorough rc testing is an industry-wide problem, usually pushed by publishers, who are, in turn, pushed by investors.

Indeed...

[dswensen]

...and this is why, when people start talking about how consoles are going to kill the PC gaming market, I don't get all that worried.

One of the big advantages PC gaming has now is the ability to fix bugs after the game has shipped. Even if that does lead to some greedy and short-sighted business decisions. "Ship now, patch later" is a lousy way to run a game company, but at least, with a PC game, you can patch later. With consoles, you're generally going to get the shaft.

But as consoles get more sophisticated and come with internet connectivity as a requisite, this problem is only going to get worse. So the big advantage of consoles, "just stick a disc / cartridge in and play" is going to become "just stick a disk / cartridge in and wait an hour for the latest patch to download." Because the bottom line is, game companies won't ship a finished, polished game if they don't have to.

Re:Indeed...

[Have Blue]

There's only 1 other Xbox game with a bug of this calibre that I'm aware of: The original release of Splinter Cell 2 would crash if you let it search for network games for more than 10 seconds. I'm not sure how Ubi resolved this.

However, compare this to a typical PC game launch: Numerous problem reports ranging from people with older computers complaining about poor performance, people with modern cards and outdated drivers complaining about graphical glitches, people for whom the game doesn't work at all for a variety of reasons. A PC game shipping with *one* bug is just as rare as on a console, but at the other end of the spectrum entirely.

Re:Indeed...

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree...I had to try installing Thief 3 on my PC 4 TIMES because of stupid error messages during installation rquiring the first install disk to be in the drive while the install was reading from the other discs!

I finally checked the forums and found the solution to be installing from 2 drives: you have to keep CD #1 in one drive at all times!

It's a good thing I have 2 drives...I dunno how someone would install Thief 3 trying to disc swap if they kept getting the same error. =P

I am SO done with PC gaming. Let it die if shit like this is gonna keep happening.

Re:Indeed...

[dswensen]

I agree. What I'm saying is that those days are numbered. Once the capability exists to patch console games the way they can PC games, we're probably going to start seeing the same shoddy workmanship in console games. Because the game companies know they can get away with it.

Granted, having a hardware standard counts for something (the massive variety of available sound / video / other hardware in PCs is one of the primary reasons there's so many bugs), but I think a lot of what it boils down to is plain old corporate shortsightedness and greed, and the console market is only going to be immune to that a little while longer, IMHO.

Re:Indeed...

[Mike Hawk]

Actually I read the thread and sorta thought the opposite. IF the game had never come out on PC, noone would have been able to prove there was a bug. No outrage, no nothing. Another reason for devs to stick to consoles...

Re:Indeed...

[cgenman]

Because the bottom line is, game companies won't ship a finished, polished game if they don't have to.

Can we please get away from this attitude of "All game companies want to ship crap." Even the attitude that all publishers want to ship crap is incorrect. Sure there are some toothbrush salesmen at publishers, but most of the people want something great. Now, whether or not they want a great game because they love the industry or because they know a million seller will get them a house in Florida is anyone's guess, but everyone is looking to release the next Diablo.

And as for the developers... Why would someone work 60 hour weeks on a game that they think will suck? Games suck because of bad timing, bad management, and bad decision making, not a lack of developer attention and intent. Many of the worst games in the past few years were paved with the best of intensions. MOO3. Daiktana. Killer Instinct. People worked very hard on those games, pouring in love and effort. The game company wanted to ship a finished, polished game, and in some ways did. But they also mismanaged their time, focusing upon the wrong things, and reached a point where they just had to ship what they had... No additional amount of polishing would shine those turds.

In other words, lay off us. Just because we can be incompetent doesn't mean our hearts aren't in the right place.

Re:Indeed...

[Anonymous Coward]

and if it had never come out at all there never would have been any bugs.

not too bright, are you?

Re:Indeed...

[dswensen]

I don't blame the developers for anything. In fact, I totally agree with this statement:

Games suck because of bad timing, bad management, and bad decision making, not a lack of developer attention and intent.

I don't doubt it's ultimately the bean counters that spell the doom of many a game. I've seen it happen many times. I'm sure most developers don't go into a game thinking about how shabby an effort they can make out of it, but circumstances push things in that direction sometimes.

Sorry if you took that personally, or aimed at developers specifically; please rest assured I didn't mean it as such.

Re:Indeed...

[AllUsernamesAreGone]

... erm, except that the bug was identified by the players based on the change in the alertness of the guards. This would be just as easy to do on the XBox as it was on the PC...

Re:Indeed...

[Mike Hawk]

Except the damning proof is being able to view the variables. You would still have a hunch that something was wrong, but not the proof. My point stands.

Re:Indeed...

[August_zero]

Ion Storm might have figured it out, and they may have even confessed to it at some point, but the proof is in the pudding as they say and most likely they would have kept their mouths shut if nobody was whining about it. Out of sight out of mind as you said.

The flip side of the argument though might be that if Ion Storm had been testing the product like they should have been then the bugs would never have made it out the door in the first place. Who cares? Its part of the product just like the exploding gas tanks were a part of the Pinto; if you don't like the product nobody is sticking a stiletto between your ribs and making you buy it.

Re:I can see it now:

[Anonymous Coward]

only by falsely using the term "everyone" in those two scenarios can you point to any supposed problem in logic

It's not just saving..

[Channard]

I don't have the full version yet, but I just double-checked in the demo and it appears you can set the difficulty on a per level basis. Is this true? If so, just play through a whole level without loading. Don't save and load after each enemy you manage to sneak by. That doesn't strike me as very 'expert' of a tactic. It's not just that, either. Gamers sometimes don't have the time on their hands to spend four hours playing through a single level. They want to save the game so they can go to sleep or do something else. Also, it's not just saving the game that sets this off. Levels in Thief 3 - on the X-Box, at least - have one part which is loaded separately, and so when you enter a room where it needs to load up that part, and then go back through, the bug takes hold.

Hey, look, we invented the wheel!

[ckessel]

This is hardly a new error. Seems like a "good" dev organization would put this on the checklist of things that must pass smoke test and/or must be in unit test.

Temple of Elemental Evil had a save/load issue, bigtime (menu items were wrongly named)

XCom (the original) had this same problem, resetting of difficulty levels.

I'd question that....

[LordPixie]

I can entirely see how their Q/A team would miss the bug - Q/A would need to be playing on hard, probably with no cheats on (otherwise, why save and reload?).

IMO, playing without cheats is a pretty significant part of QA. Admittedly, you're going to need someone to breeze through the game easily just to make sure the basic mechanics work. But you're creating a game. The QA team NEEDS to make sure it has enjoyable gameplay, or they're just selling an overly expensive tech demo. Especially in a game like Thief III, where the AI one of the major selling points. If you don't have the time to test all your features, then make time. If you're not willing to do that, then be prepared to reap the whirlwind when your stuff breaks.


--LordPixie

Ion Storm's little Thief 3 bug..

[BigNastyOgre]

Ion Storm? You can't exit the level without Superfly Johnson!

Re:Ion Storm's little Thief 3 bug..

[Slyght]

If I had mod points, you would have them all for that comment. Good work, sir.

just bought it...

[golgotha007]

picked it up last night.

utterly and completely disappointed.

i have a gforce 5200 and p4-2600, not a terrific system but it lets me play most games with decent framerates.

theif3, at the lowest settings gives me horrible framerates. not only that, but the graphics are nothing to look at. even the menus in the game are pixelated to the point of almost being unreadable.

i wouldn't mind jerky framerates if everything looked good (Farcry with all settings high jerks a little bit, but looks beyond amazing), but as i said before, Theif3 looks terrible.

to give you an idea what i'm talking about, it appears like Ion Storm took the original 1998 Theif engine and added some dynamic lighting and physics, and that's it.

this game would even be a lot better if they licensed the Quake 3 engine for crissakes.

on a side note, i absolutely hated Daikatana as well, but i don't like Theif3 as much as i like Daikatana....

Re:just bought it...

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a Geforce fx 5600 and the game runs like poo also. I think it's time to admit that we bought in to the hype of the "fx" series. I just wish I had the money for a nice Radeon...

Re:I can see it now:

[bigman2003]

If a vast majority of Xbox gamers were on Live, then the patching system would be okay. But, as many people have mentioned before, this would open the gates to studios pushing out products before they were ready. I'd prefer the game to work the first time. But, as a Live subscriber, I think the patches would be okay, but I understant why they don't allow it.

But with the vast majority of Xbox owners NOT on Live, this would give Microsoft a very bad name in the industry. (Yes, for a lot of you they already have a bad name) It's better if they make the studios do a recall, essentially to 'pay for their crimes'.

But then again, if they allowed patching via Live, they could take it out of the developers hide. "Okay, you want to patch via Live? That will be $2.99 per patch" (not to the subscriber, to the studio). That would be a dis-incentive, but at the same time would allow the service to go through when necessary. Personally, this particular instance would be no big deal to me, because I never play any game on 'expert' anyway.

No, you pay more because...

[legolas_a20]

No, you pay more because you got the computer, euhm console (not that there is much difference...) almost for free.

Make money FAST

[legolas_a20]

The goal is actually to make money FAST... and that means screwing the users if it'll make money faster. Even if it makes less in the long term.

It's an FX5200, what do you expect?!

[Alereon]

A Geforce FX 5200 is quite literally the slowest DirectX9-compatible videocard you can buy. A Geforce2 or Geforce4 MX would be significantly faster at OpenGL or DirectX7! Expecting a $50 videocard to give you good performance on a modern, DirectX9 game is just ludicrous.

Re:It's an FX5200, what do you expect?!

[arkanes]

I played Thief 3 on an Athlon 1800+, with a GF 3 and 256 megs of ram. Turning resolution to 800x600 and turning down most of the detals made the game run perfectly playably, with a stable framerate. People with 3 times the hardware I've got complaining about it being "slow" or "ugly" need to either re-evaluate thier assumptions or fix whatever else they have wrong with thier machines.

You cannot require Xbox Live for bug fixes

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's a legitimate business decision not to alienate their non-Live users by only making critical game patches available to the ones that pay for an optional service. They paid $50 for a game. If that game is broken, they need it fixed for free. If anything, developers would be opening themselves up to a class action lawsuit if users had to pay extra for the product they already paid for.

That means a recall OR an offline patch CD mailed out for free. Either way you're going to press a lot of discs, pay for shipping on each CD, and inconvenience a lot of people.

No guarantees

[Andy Smith]

We're looking into it.Can't say anything more for now, and there aren't any guarantees...

That's the problem -- there aren't any guarantees.

A lot of people threaten to stop buying PC games because of the "no guarantees" license agreement, but they keep on buying them. I have actually stopped. Haven't bought a PC games in, what, two or three years now. It isn't because I don't want to play them, it isn't because I can't afford them, I'm just not willing to agree to a contract that I disapprove of.

It's amazing to me that a developer will publicly admit to a fairly major fault in a game and then say, effectively, "we might fix it or we might not, dunno yet". I'm sure this thought process goes on in many different industries, but game developers openly admit to having this attitude! It makes me wonder: If this is what they admit to then... well, finish the question for yourself.

This is our fault, though. (Well, depending on who you are, it's actually your fault, not mine!) Consumers tolerated unfinished games for so long that there became very little motivation for developers to bother finishing them. We told them time and time again that we'd buy their faulty products and they heard it so often that they said okay, in that case we're happy to sell them to you. So we did this to ourselves. Or rather you did... ;-)

Re:No guarantees

[Zed2K]

Uhhh...it is JUST a game. 9 out of 10 times the game will work with no problems right out of the box. Occassionally a patch will be released before the game hits the stores. No big deal there either. They will fix this (even though its not THAT big of a bug).

But since you want to get all dramatic about it maybe you deserve an oscar?

In-House vs Outhouse

[cgenman]

Does anyone know if Ion Storm was utilizing an in-house bug team, or if they were relying upon Eidos' "crack" Quality Assurance team?

Item #2 in the Link

[sheared]

Hey! Perfect example of what I was talking about in the XBox killed the PC thread:

http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=110235 &t hreshold=0&commentsort=0&tid=127&tid=186&tid=206&m ode=thread&cid=9357082

Games are complex. Under the current system, I believe there is a limit to the complexity of a console game -- at least while the console makers allow no recourse for patching.

Currently Playing Thief 3...

[cabra771]

on normal difficulty.
So I get no bug. I don't know about the guy earlier bitching about how his little GeForce5200 can't kick out the frames, but my new ATI 9800 Pro sure makes it look damn pretty! I never played the first two Thief games, but this one kicks ass. And looks awesome when hooked up to a bigscreen HDTV.

This is why...

[JonTWizartar]

This is why PC groups shouldn't be allowed to code Console games!!! They killed Dues Ex and not Thief!!! Nice work guys!

let them go

[Hank Chinaski]

why do you say "let them go" when you mean "fire"?

Re:let them go

[SandSpider]

Firing generally means 'with cause', usually because of breaking company policy/laws, inability to perform one's job, or just generally being a big jerk. Letting someone go, or laying them off, generally means there was no cause, so you tend to get more perks like severance. I know, those perks aren't much, but they sure beat not getting them.

I know, it's easier to stir up the revolution by saying they were fired, but that implies poor performance on the part of the workers, and that seems uncalled for.

=Brian

They shipped Release Candidate 1 instead of 8 or 9

[Danny Rathjens]

From "The Last Thief 3 Preview You Will Ever Need to Read From a hands-on experience with the game, by Dan, a.k.a. Digital Nightfall."

<Cain> Question: Is the game polished? did you run in bugs or glitches ?
<Digital`Nightfall> The game is very polished. Release candidate #1 was accepted by eidos. That's virtually unheard of. If they do a patch, it will not be to fix bugs. I only saw one glitch, and that was a guard who's sword was haning from his armpit rather than his belt (usually they have to go to candidit 8 or 9).

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:u2pAOx2fQ9M J:www.thief-thecircle.com/thief3/danspreview.asp+& hl=en

Furthermore, it only runs on win2k/xp and nvidia or ati boards less than 2 years old which reduces their market quite a bit.
I think it is obvious that they simply planned to cash in on the money that fans of the original would shell out, rather than make a quality game. Well, that is pretty much the definition of 'sequel' in the movie industry. I guess the video game industry is following their lead.

Gamespot have picked up the story...

[Channard]

.. and are covering it with a news article here. As luck would have it, the Thief 1 Gold I ordered off E-Bay just turned up today, so I guess I'll be playing Thief 1 till they fix this bug - if they fix it.

I Just Find It Funny.

[Slyght]

I find it funny that for two weeks that people have been talking about this game with comments ranging from "It's awesome" to "It's pretty good, much better than DX:IW at least," and the second somebody find this non-showstopper bug, everybody's like "This is an outrage! I demand that Warren Spector come to my house and apologize to my face! We should sue Ion Storm and burn down their office!" It took the public nearly two weeks to catch onto this bug...basically every Thief fanboy in the world, probably playing it nonstop, and it took them two weeks. Now imagine if it were just a handful of playtesters...probably not as likely they would have found this bug. I'm not saying that it's OK to leave bugs in a program, but Ion Storm honestly probably wasn't aware at all. After all, it is pretty hard to distinguish a guard with "expert" AI from a guard with "normal" AI if you're sneaking behind him in the shadows. So, A) It's not really that big of an issue, just play it on "hard" difficulty and make it a personal goal to get 90% loot instead of 60%, 3 special loot items instead of 2, and don't kill any non-combatants, and for all sakes and purposes it's expert mode, B) Stop being such drama queens, sometimes things in life don't go the way you want them to, and you just gotta accept that, C) It's still a fun game on even normal difficulty, if you demand a challenge go play Ninja Gaiden on hard mode.

I think there is another point here...

[Anonymous Coward]

Being an owner of all current console systems, I have to say that in general, the XBox seems to have more "buggy" games than the others.

The reason for this is that I think the XBox gets more PC ports and PC dev's just think in the mode of "patch it later."

I also think that in general, American games are buggier than Japanese games. Now I'm not saying that no Japanese games have bugs and I'm not saying that all American games have bugs.

But what can't be denied is that the Japanese live and breate work. I saw a special on Polyphony Digital and literally every single developer had a small cot under their desk in their cube because they spend so much time at the office...

Touché.

[LordPixie]

The sad part is that I actually proofread that post. Don't even ask how that managed to slip past.

What the Slashdot community really needs is a "Oh crap, my spelling sucks ass. Let me fix that ! button.


--LordPixie

Re:They shipped Release Candidate 1 instead of 8 o

[Danny Rathjens]

Wow; my first troll moderation since the moderation system was added(6 years?).
Thanks. Variety is the spice of life. ;)

It's all about the videocard

[Alereon]

A Geforce3 can be expected to significantly outperform a Geforce FX 5200. A Geforce 3 (not Titanium) has 7.3GB/sec of memory bandwidth, an FX 5200 has 3.2GB/sec. The Geforce3 also has twice the number of pixel pipelines as the FX 5200. Overall, I wouldn't be surprised at all if you got twice the framerate the dude with the FX 5200 did, or near-so.

Theres a bigger problem...

[Psyrg]

The levels in Thief 3 asre split to allow the larger levels to fit on the X-Box. What happens during the save upon that transition? Does the skill setting reset then?