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Virtual MMO Currency Trading Crippled By Fraud
Thanks to Terra Nova for pointing to the Gaming Open Market website, home of "the next generation of [MMO] game commodity trading", where there's an announcement that: "Until further notice, Gaming Open Market will be closing its doors to all game currency trading except Second Life." There's more information in a post at the official Second Life forums, where Jamie Hale explains: "Yesterday, I had a user breeze through spending over $3000 USD on [EVE Online] and [Star Wars Galaxies]. Immediately after taking delivery of the ISK and credits, he reversed all the payments, claiming he never received the goods. This is a well-known loophole in PayPal's seller protection policy. Basically, I have no recourse at all. PayPal accepts no form of proof of delivery except physical waybills (UPS, FedEx, etc)."
I heard recently that the "virtual economy" created by the world of MMORPGs is larger than the Chinese stock market.
Quit messing around with Paypal, and call the District Attorney where the guy lives.
He has admitted he commited fraud, get him arrested and see him in court.
From the thread:
"So basically, we're out $3000, or about 70% of our profits since January. And to be completely honest, it hurts."
Sorry, you sir need to get into a new business. The one you are currently in sucks for you, sucks for the game, and sucks for the people playing the games. MMORPG's are NOT a job. People who are spending real money for in-game advantage through third parties should be shot in the street for being so stupid.
That said, you're an idiot for using PayPal. Blame yourself, not the person that caught you with your pants down.
schild
editor, f13.net
What you need to do is ship a cd to the buyer with the codes to access the virtual items/characters.
That is a physical delivery, and paypal WILL support you and help you solve your problem. Very sad that you had this problem, but you need to make sure to use any/all services you subscribe to your advantage and not blindly trust in your customers. There are a lot of people that will do you much worse than a couple thousand given the opportunity.
WOE IS ME. i mean what is our society coming to if we cannot trust the anonymous people we meet in mmorpgs to be trustworthy enough to buy virtual items away from us.
i think it is time you people stop wasting SO much time and/or money on these games and go out and meet some REAL people. Anyone who is taking the time to collect and sell items on mmorpgs obviously has enough spare time to go and spend it with people who do not hide from each other behind their avatars and fake personae.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
Who's going to start the first escrow service for gamers..
People who are spending real money for in-game advantage through third parties should be shot in the street for being so stupid.
Now, why is that exactly? Let's look at the situation.
Person A spends 20 hours a week playing MMOX to build up his level 245 Necromancer Dark Elf Paladin. He then enjoys playing the game as such.
Person B spends $200 on a level 245 Necromancer Dark Elf Paladin. He then enjoys playing the game as such.
Frankly, I don't see any objective difference between the two. Granted, the specific gaming experiences for players A and B are different, but externally they're the same. One spends his time, the other, his money. Both to play A GAME! IT'S A GAME! GAME!!! It's supposed to be FUN! FUN! GAME!
Games are NOT serious. Player B didn't enjoy working through a level grind to get the character he wanted, or maybe he makes enough per hour to justify the expense. Either way, it's all for the sake of fun. Just because he has fun with the result, while you have fun with the process, doesn't mean he's any different from you.
You see, these are GAMES. You play them to have FUN. Not everyone has fun in the same way.
So, my question is basically why does this suck for the game, and for the people playing games, if the purpose of a game is to have fun?
GeekNights!
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When Gaming Geeks go BAD!!!!
"It'll destroy you if you try to make it mean anything to anyone but yourself." - Henry Rollins
Selling ingame items sucks for everyone, and although that was a rough way to do it, I will say that if what he did got you to shut down your site, then hurray!
Selling ingame items and credits ruins the game, creates item farmers, makes rich crappy players able to compete with actual dedicated achievers, ruins the game economy, etc.
Yep, if a theif is able to steal something, he should be entitled to keep it and go free. I'll try that line the next time I "teach Best Buy a lesson."
The best argument I've heard thus far FOR the practice of buying MMO items and money is that some people simply don't have the time to play as much as others. To some it's not a big deal to spend some cash to get themselves to the point where the powergamers already are at. I'm not saying I agree with the tactics of the fraudulent bunch out there, but I don't think executing people for legitimately spending their money as they see fit is a valid argument either.
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
The irony in this headline is that selling ingame credits, is, in itself fraud. So if someone is defrauding the frauders, more power to em. Currency trading is wrong and contributes to the decay of the game; I knew someone in SWG who was incompetent in game, and every other week would go buy a million credits on ebay, then burn through the money and do it again. That sucks, and 3rd party currency/item trading excahnges should all burn in hell.
It sucks for the game because the person who bought the level 245 Necromancer Dark Elf Paladin is skipping the majority of the world that the developers put their blood, sweat and tears into.
It sucks for the players (not all of them) but the ones he might interact with because having skipped the majority of the game, in all likelihood, doesn't know shit about the game and will wreck nothing but newbie havok upon those stupid enough to group with him.
MMOGs are a game, yes. But it's also a type of business that relies on player retention. When someone skips from the beginning to the end the chance of retention is probably dropped about 90% because the only thing the player will take part in is the endgame.
The person who played 20 hours a week may very well have catassed his way up there. But I can guarantee you he'll generate more free PR through word of mouth than the guy who dropped his wad on a pre-leveled character.
Doesn't sound like you play MMOGs much.
schild
editor, f13.net
Not completely disagreeing with you. But MMORPGs go well beyond games for a lot of people. They are environments for social interaction with other humans. As such, the word "game" is almost derisive.
And I rarely heard my fellow EQ players 5 years ago call the level grind fun. City of Heroes might be a different story from what I've heard.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
What you are failing to see is that MMORPG's aren't just about your experience, they are about everybody's experience.
If I sepnd $200 for a level 245 Necromancer, that is probably because I can't get there myself, either because I am a dumbass, or whatever. I haven't experienced enough of the game to have attained that level (in general). I am going ot make bumbling, stupid mistakes that the original player wouldn't have. I don't care, I am having fun.
Until I start routing newbie areas out of frustration, so the the real newbies can never get any XP, because I have killed an entire zone by looking crosseyed at it.
And then there are the people that would buy this character, again, because they could never get one of their own that high, but with malicious intent. They want to exact revenge on someone they think wronged them.
They ruin the game for other people. I don't think they physically should be shot, but I think roving gangs of high level PK'ers should identify these characters, and make their life hell.
Now if a certain development house (NCSoft) would just kick Chinese IPs from their NA servers like they did to NA IPs on their Korean servers, I can start really playing, and I can safely ignore cries of RANG RANG and 999999 from ebay/etc. adena farmers.
Finally, one less site selling in-game stuff for money. Almost every MMO has a policy against this, but they do it anyway. It has to stop. It is cheating. I don't care about any arguments about the time it takes to do X in the game. Why not just create an idspispopd equivalent? That's what developers are doing if they don't at least fight this.
Heute die Welt, morgen das Sonnensystem!
You mean the kind of person who cheats at video games is also likely to cheat you on Paypal transactions? I'm amazed.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
It sucks for the game because the person who bought the level 245 Necromancer Dark Elf Paladin is skipping the majority of the world that the developers put their blood, sweat and tears into.
The person who played the character to level 245 didn't skip the majority of the world.
Mail them a piece of paper that has the codes on it. They have to sign for the letter, they are liable.
My user number is prime. Is yours?
If you want to keep control of 'your'character, the solution is still simple. Create a third online character, give the third character all the virtual money, send the codes for the third character via registered post.
This may require a new subscription to whatever game you happen to be playing, but in the grand scheme of things the cost for one month's subscription is peanuts compared to $3000.
Second Life is not a game. The developers ENCOURAGE online money trading.
SL is more like massively multiplayer productivity software with a social aspect. In it, you can create just about anything you can imagine, you can build 3D objects, script them, you can customize your avatars to the hilt and make custom animations for them in poser. It is a dream for machinima.
After setting up a shop and making a few cool items, you can make money without spending a single minute in world. Since 99% of the content in SL is provided by the players, the developers offer the players monetary rewards in US dollars every month for the most popular content, and encourage anyone who is left out of the "rewarded few" to sell their game money on GOM and IGE, so that they are still rewarded for their content development effort.
The amounts of money involved are nowhere near trivial. I have made the equivalent of $800 USD, and my lifetime membership only cost me $160.
I'm not hugely surprised by the lack of factual arguements made by the people who dislike or believe that money for VW currency is cheating. This type of arguement simply doesn't belong on /. where quite obviously nobody can post their own opinion without being beaten with a religous stick.
Speaking of which, I'll take a potshot at every arguement on here saying that anyone who states something as retarded as:
"Awwww, poor baby can't run his crappy gaming site"
or
" It has to stop. It is cheating. I don't care about any arguments about the time it takes to do X in the game"
clearly doesn't have the mental capacity to carry on a discussion on this intellectual level.
The person who played the character to level 245 didn't skip the majority of the world.
So what? It's not a 1:1 correspondence; the Level 245 characters tend to come from one person making characters and selling them as a job. Besides, you're not refuting his point at all; if the person who bought the character instead started from scratch, then you'd have two people playing through the game instead of one.
Rob (I almost typed "paying" up there instead of "playing." That certainly would've been apropos)
You post sounds like someone who only plays single-player games. From that POV your post makes complete sense, but this isn't about single-player games.
"Not everyone has fun in the same way."
For example, griefers have fun by ruining the fun of others. And cheaters have fun by changing the rules midway through the game.
I ask you to choose a game you really enjoy, play it with either a griefer or cheater, and then TRY to repeat your assertions.
This is not my sig.
It sucks for the game because the person who bought the level 245 Necromancer Dark Elf Paladin is skipping the majority of the world that the developers put their blood, sweat and tears into.
So what? If he paid for the game like everyone else, then the devs got their money for their blood sweat and tears.
It sucks for the players (not all of them) but the ones he might interact with because having skipped the majority of the game, in all likelihood, doesn't know shit about the game and will wreck nothing but newbie havok upon those stupid enough to group with him.
And that's different from about 90% of the rest of the idiot players how exactly?
MMOGs are a game, yes. But it's also a type of business that relies on player retention. When someone skips from the beginning to the end the chance of retention is probably dropped about 90% because the only thing the player will take part in is the endgame.
How is this the player's problem? If the devs made the game more interesting in the beginning instead of just a leveling treadmill, then maybe people would be more inclined to play all the way through.
The person who played 20 hours a week may very well have catassed his way up there. But I can guarantee you he'll generate more free PR through word of mouth than the guy who dropped his wad on a pre-leveled character.
Again, that's someone else's problem, not the player's.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
"This incident has been reported to the FBI Internet Fraud Department, and tomorrow to the RCMP. We have compiled as much information as possible on this person, including his name, address, phone number, email addresses and the IPs used to log into our site. All of this information will be turned over to the authorities."
And that should just about make sure the guy is found. Paypal does do some 'decent' checks to verify your identity when setting up accounts.
I can't comment on how good or evil it is to buy your way into a MMORPG, since I don't play those, but I can say that Gaming Open Market has provided an excellent serviced to Second Life, which isn't a MMORPG at all. There's no treadmill, there's no game objectives, and buying and selling goods is part of the purpose of the SL metaverse. The developers of SL encourage people to trade cash on GOM, because it served the valuable purpose of keeping the cash moving in the virtual economy. If it weren't for GOM, then most of the cash would be tied up in the accounts of a handful of wealthy players. I've played SL for months now. I run a business in-world where I build and script vehicles and sell them. GOM helps me in two ways. First, new players who want to go shopping can pick up a few extra "Linden Dollars" at GOM. Second, I can sell my in-world profits on GOM for US dollars. Now, when you say, "People who are spending real money for in-game advantage through third parties should be shot in the street for being so stupid," I think it's obvious that you don't understand what people are paying for. Buying Linden dollars is like buying software, or buying that expansion pack for your favourite game. By spending US dollars to buy a Second Life game currency, you're buying an enhancement to your entertainment software. Are you saying that it's stupid to pay for software? That's an entirely different argument. I don't see how buying and selling Linden dollars for US$ could be wrong or stupid when it helps the game economy and makes the game more enjoyable. Sounds like a good way to spend your entertainment dollar to me. I'm really sorry that this happpened to GOM and I hope they get back on their feet soon.
That's a pretty unnecessary statement. I'd venture to say he's played them enough to know full well what the phrase "level grind" means. Well enough to understand why some people will spend real world money on preleveled characters to skip the whole process.
Personally, I play several MMOs, and I'm the type who levels his character through the conventional means, grinding away. Because for ME, it's about experiencing the game the developers created -- that's FUN to me. But for some, it's not. *shrug*
"I'm a leaf on the wind. Watch how I soar."
-Hoban Washburn
PayPal seems to try and market itself as the new way to pay for things online. However it is completely incompatible with any sort of online only system.
I work for a small software company, $20 buys you the current version of our software, and all future versions for free. You pay via paypal, use the software for a while, then force a refund since (as has already been mentioned) there is absolutely no way for us to contest it. The PayPal resposne boxes just don't work allow for anything other than a tracking number. You get the refund, and we get squat.
This is only moderatly bad for us, I can delete the account, so there is no real loss (apart from my time). But take a company like www.TransmissionFilms.com, if they took PayPal and random client B watched a movie, then reversed payment, they have no recourse. And worse than that, they might be contractually obligated to pay the creator of the film $X since the film was watched.
I think that PayPal needs to step up and embrace the technology that allows it to thrive. Allow merchants to specify exactly what will be provided during registration (ie username, password, account name, etc), and possibly some third party way of validating that data. The customer would be presented with information on exactly what PayPal thinks they should be receiving, at time of purchase. The fraud department would also need to be staffed with people, not drones, to deal with issues that arised thereafter.
paul reinheimer
Actually no it's the gaming companies that suck. They should be providing equivilant services, rather than catering to the whims of a few loudmouthed brats who scrape their $15/month together to sweat and slave in their parents basement then get upset when someone else buys a level 245 character.
There is a demand for this sort of service to go on. The world of MMOs is getting crouded, and sooner or later some publisher is going to latch on to the idea (actually, Second Life already has but sooner or later the pack will get a clue) that your character in a MMO is yours and not theirs and they'll let you treat it as your property, sell it, trade it, etc.
I mean, on one hand I agree with you clueless noobs buying a level 245 are annoying. But are they any less annoying as level 1 clueless newbs begging for items and buffs? No. It doesn't matter what level they are they're still clueless noobs. Better they be 245 and don't drive off your actual new player population by pissing them off.
It's as bad as whineing that people with $$BIG BUX$$ and faster connections/computers own your ass at quake. Life isn't fair. Games aren't either. Learn to cope.
*: Note, some bitterness in this post may be due to missing out on selling game items by the poster due to finally quitting a game that also happens to have recently banned the sale of items period.
As always, the Turbine MMO rule remains: exploit early, exploit often. Enjoy D&D and MEO.
Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
Let me see if I understand this correctly. On the board (link in the article) Jamie Hale admitted that he knows why Paypal won't do anything about this. Namely because there was no physical shipment. Well, why don't they throw that step in? Ship out something the user has to recieve as verification, and talk to paypal to verify that it would count as "goods recieved".
Or how about actually creating a working relationship with the company that produced/developed the game? Then he could have re-couped all his loss, but because he didn't workt hat step out, he's out of the profit.
It all sounds like personal problems to me...
Actually, probably not as the person selling the character wouldn't be creating the character to sell in the first place. And what if the person purchasing the character decided he didn't have the time required to play the entire game in the first place, so he never p(l)ayed at all.
As much as gamers like you hate this, this is part of what keeps these games going. It's all about the Benjamin$ and this tactic brings in more of them.
Sega's Phantasy Star Online has the best approach for money, items, and cooperative play:
- It has a strict limit to the amount of items one can have and store.
- The in-game shops never sell the best armors and weapons, you have to fight to get them.
- On the other hand, decent items are not hard to get, and even the rarest ones are nothing out of this world.
- Players can't hurt each other, making sure high-level assholes would not slay and loot newbies.
- Only four players per game.
- It is an action RPG.
Consequences:
- As amassing craploads of money and items is nearly useless, veterans usually give away money and really good items to the newbies.
- As acceptable items are not that hard to get, spending real money in them is pointless.
- Players actually cooperate to beat the game (oh, and it does not take a lifetime to beat).
- It's not an ultra-boring click-click-click crapfest, a la Diablo.
Circumcision is child abuse.
Although I don't see anything ethically wrong with buying and selling game currency, I do wonder why people would spend REAL MONEY on money for the game. Do these people realize that you can get game money for free? Yeah, just play the game! I guess this just goes to show that, once again, a fool and his money are soon parted.
I'm one of those people that occasionaly buys money online. I've done it in the past an Anarchy Online, and just a week ago on City of Heroes.
My reasoning is that the money provides a slight advantage to me for what is a trivial cost to myself (roughly $20). It lets me enjoy more of my limited time playing the game instead of chasing down money. On the other end of the deal, I look at it as supporting a college kid who just paid for ramen for the week.
Its all good.
Just so you know, 999999 is shorthand for HELP HELP HELP. '9' in Chinese sounds a lot like 'Help' in Chinese so if you're in trouble you just pound 9. It's really much easier than yelling for 'help' in English. I doubt someone shouting 9999 was trying to sell you anything, more likely they were asking for help and just never thought that US players wouldn't know about common Chinese MMORPG netiquette.
;)
I learned this in the Taiwan Lineage 2 open beta. There are some other good shorthand numbers as well, but 9999 was the most important
looks like one A$$hat in the Virtual Sales industry has been both Pwnd and Griefed by someone with even less morals. The one thing that MMORPGs have taught me is that in the absence of consequences, someone will always be willing to sink lower at the expense of others. Not that I think this will stop folks from selling Virtual Goods or change anything.
So what does "+++++++++++++1241241243124124124" mean to asian players? looks like a macro got stuck in text mode to me....
I was in the Lineage II OB, and the gratutious bot farming was completely gamebreaking. But Lineage's primary market is Asian. I doubt NCsoft gives a rats ass how Lineage II fares in North America. (Sure was the impression I got while playing)
In my opinion both the company and the thief are in the wrong here. But opinions aside, paying USD for in-game items is against the ELUA that the user has to agree to every time they start up SWG (and probably EVE, though I haven't read through that ELUA).
You must know at least one of this person's character's name as well as the date & time of the transaction, and you know his real name and billing address, assuming he didn't use a stolen credit card. Report him to SOE for paying cash money for in-game items and SOE may ban him. Doesn't get you your money, but it may give some satisfaction.
Slim Cognito
I have seen some stories about an MMO in development that is based on Gold. since the value of gold is consistent across the world, it is the perfect medium of exchange. Everything in the game can be exchanged for gold, real gold. And all in game items are can be bought/sold/traded for gold. The NPC merchants keep a percentage of all transactions, kind of tax, so the developer continues to make money over the cost of adding new items/treasure in game. Now if that would be the highest subscribed MMO in history, I don't know what would.
-
Sorry, you sir need to get into a new business. The one you are currently in sucks for you, sucks for the game, and sucks for the people playing the games. MMORPG's are NOT a job. People who are spending real money for in-game advantage through third parties should be shot in the street for being so stupid.
From what I understand the site's a faciliator for others to do their trading on game goods. So it's rather odd you'd state that "MMORPG's are NOT a job" since no one in this story is making them one.Personally all I got from your post was you hate those who buy money/goods/characters in MMORPGs so, ergo, everyone should and the people at this site deserved what they got. Bet you're a real joy to party with online, I've noticed over the years that those with attitudes such as yours tend to be real asses in-game too, thinking that they know the only "right" way to do anything and everything. Perhaps you enjoy your gaming, but I can assure you a LOT of people probably despise you behind your back. You might want to re-evaluate your attitudes on life and gaming.
Take a look at Penny Arcade's take on the MMO trading fraud situation.