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The Return of the Sparrow Electric Vehicle?
H0NGK0NGPH00EY writes "I have been keeping my eye on the Sparrow electric vehicle, following last year's bankruptcy of its creator, and recently noticed that the brightly-colored three-wheeled electric commuter car has been reborn. Myers Motors will begin selling an upgraded version this summer, after having acquired the rights and tooling from Phoenix Environmental Motors, who mention this on their official homepage."
..first it was a sparrow, then it was a dodo, now it's a phoenix?
"BSD: Free as in speech. Linux: Free as in beer. Windows 10: Free as in herpes." --Man On Pink Corner in #52607549.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Too many "alternative" ideas don't understand that "different" and "popular" are very rarely correlated.
There was an old lady who drove in a shoe...
If I didn't already have a solid-performing, small Civic, I'd seriously think about one of these.
Except that I drive too much.
Commuter market is hard to handle. One has to worry about safety in city driving, and how close to work one has to be for it to be practical. If you work in any sort of fabrication facility, chances are you live a good distance from work. Wouldn't want to run out of juice on the side of the road in a vehicle that's difficult to refuel w/o a large time investment.
"A group of words expressing something other than their literal intention. Now that... is... irony!" - Bender
...a Beowulf Cluster of those things.
Or, just buy a regular car.
I think I think, therefore I think I am.
Strike 1: it's electric. After listening to the Big 3 say for years and years no one wants electric cars, the public doesn't want electric cars. Baaaa.
Strike 2: single seater. After listening to the Big 3 say for years and years that SUV's and trucks can do more for you, the public won't care about a car with a single seat. Baaaa.
Strike 3: limited range. After listening to the Big 3 say for years and years that a car should be able to drive across the US or Canada on a moment's notice... eh, you get the idea.
Sparrow concept = neat
Sparrow sales will = bleh
Personally, I like the Tango more than the Sparrow.
In any case, note that since top speed is 70mph, you'll only be able to drive 20 to 30 minutes at that speed. That hardly even qualifies as a commute by many people's standards!
It's a neat idea, but the batteries just aren't there. Still, I'm sure that battery technology has advanced a bit since 2000, right? Maybe they'll produce yet another upgraded version soon.
Ceci n'est pas une sig
Fire the market researchers! Why didn't they learn, right back from this - The Sinclair C5. It failed then, so why don't they learn that people don't want to ride around in something that makes them look like a fool?
Now, if they follow the examples set by manufacturers such as Toyota, where they make hybrid, dual fuel cars (gas/electric) that switch fuel type depending on the usage, we'll get to the point where we can effectively use less damaging energy sources. We're getting there, slowly, but this just isn't it.
If I could afford one at the moment, I would put myself on the list right now. Next time I'm in the market for a car, I'll probably buy one, or something very similar.
My site: Free Nature Pictures
when I can run my beauty on the one substance that stands for peace, freedom and the fight against terrorism - Liberated Iraqi Oil.
My main question is: how practical is this car? You have to pay over 13,000 for something that only seat one. What if you have to fit wife, kids, and dogs into your car?
I personally would only consider an electric car if it comes in a wagon.
Given the number of times that brakes are mentioned in the list of improvements, one wonders if the lack of braking lead to the financial demise of the original company...
:
(the following upgrades and fixes have been added)
Improved Braking
Dielectric grease in connector [very nice]
Hard washers for Wheel bearings
New outer suspension, complete with brakes [!?]
Cover for front brake lines to eliminate shorting
Hard tubing for brake lines
Moved brake pressure line switch.
I don't think you should see it as a replacement for a car; rather it is an all-weather, electric alternative to a scooter, commuter bike or delivery vehicle. In Sweden, similar small, enclosed gasoline-engine moped-classed vehicles have become popular for just those roles. This could probably be a good higher speed alternative.
I guess that in a way, having USA as their home marked is not a good thing. You would probably see a lot more acceptance for this in Europe.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
The Merlin Roadster is also a three wheel drive, but not as ugly and has an ICE. A mini review is here.
R(k)
And price. I think it's a failure to the masses, but at least they're not so pretentious about their product, unlike Dean Kamen and his certain scooter. Remember, it will promise to "change the way cities are made"!
The people responsible for this business plan need to understand that, if an invention turns out to be ugly, the chances than it can be spinned into something fashionable are quite slim.
They should be working to mitigate that, not enhance it by painting it purple!
www.enterweb.pt
It looks like a giant duck bill... the daffy mobile
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen
Don't forget, a 1000MW coal plant releases 88 lbs of radioactive stuff every day.
.03 mrem .009 mrem
Coal plant, living within 50 miles:
Nuclear plant, living within 50 miles:
(Both figures are considered extremely low levels.)
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
At around $14,000 and only a 20-40 mile range I really can't see this as a real option for anyone. You can buy a hybrid car at that price. And get a range closer to 400 miles....
If the price were around $3,000 I'd consider it. Heck, even if the top speed were around 45 MPH I'd be happy enough.
As Nietsche famously said, "If you stare too long into the Abyss, 1d4 Tanar'ri of random type will attack you."
Hey ppl! Chk out this electric car -REVA -from India.
Features Grab:
This elegant, light-yet rugged, two-door sedan comfortably seats 2 adults in the front and 2 children upto a height of 5' and 6" (165 cms) in the rear. It has a range of 80 kilometers in stop-and-go city driving, and a top speed of 65 km/h.
you can read a review about it Here
It costs somethin like Rupees.2.20 lakhs (which is abt $5300).
Why does yahoo do this
Unless your a bird, insect or pollinating plant. Then wind farms are a very bad thing indeed.
Why? Because they produce energy without physically burning anything? Or is it because they change the skyline? (Not that I mind, I'd rather have the graceful spinning of blades than the cancerous cloud of a coal/oil based plant)
What really has me curious is why they included power ports for laptops in the thing. With the battery life it has (or hasn't), who would dare add on anything that would use more electricity?
For that matter, why have power windows? The only reason I like power windows is so I can raise/lower passenger and rear windows. In this car, there isn't a window that is even the slightest bit difficult to reach by the driver.
Edward Burr
Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.
Unless as a personal intra-city transport device, and even then:
1) Bad weather places that are congested
2) In a city like London, a small vehicle is good
3) If this vehicle was exempt from the 5/day congestion fee
If you drive daily in London, then this vehicle could save you up to 1500 in congestion charges **IF** this vehicle was exempt because it was small and non-polluting. In 5 years that would be around the cost of the vehicle itself.
It has enough power to get you to and from work in a small area. It is ugly and geeky, so it won't get stolen. You can rent a garage for your main car somewhere cheap for when you need to do a long journey somewhere.
Somehow I don't see the government wanting to give up precious congestion charge fees, even to forward small economical (? how much does the electricity for a full charge cost in this vehicle anyway ?) vehicles over large uneconomical ones.
Good aerodinamics (small contact area), small wheight, better security and weather protection than a motorcycle. Everything I would like in a ... gas vehicle.
Id buy one of these if it has a gas motor, I dont want to pay the wheight and cost of batteries, and want the flexibility (refueling everywhere) and manutenability of a gas engine. (no need to change that whole battery set once and while)
I seriously want a gas engine vehicle that consume much less, but no way Id like a battery powered vehicle.
I actually like the idea of electric cars. For one, my work is only about 3 miles away from my house. I could use a bicycle, but if it rains or snows, or cold out, thats out. I bought a cheap car to get me too and from work and it is reliable. But with the gas prices going up, it would be nice not to spend a penny on gas. Now, I don't pay for electricty either, so plugging in a car to my outlet is no big deal to me (AF base, free utiliteis).
Has anyone figured out how much your electric bill would go up by charging your batteries at home?
Mark
i don't like that it has 600 lbs of batteries and such a short range. i something like this but with a 500 or 1000 cc turbodiesel would be a lot faster and have much better range, depending on the tank size (600 lbs is almost 100 gallons).
it would probably get close to 100 mpg.
two seats would be nice, but for 100 mpg i'll only complain a few times a week.
hybrid turbodiesel 2 or 3 seater would be very cool.
comments? discuss among yourselves.
Where's Robin Hood? We could kinda really use him now.
This is a much better example of the potential of electric car technology than that fugly little nose-on-wheels.
Electric cars don't NEED to be ugly, slow and have tiny ranges. Take the tZero for instance, 100 mile range, top speed of ~100 mph, 0-60 in 4 seconds; handily beating Ferraris and Porsches in an 1/8 mile. and it's only moderately hideous looking! The price, however, is entirely hideous.
- "Hear that?! The percolations are imminent! Cease your ingress!"
Most electricity in the US is coming from coal fired plants which are pretty nasty in terms of burning fossil fuels. Maybe we should be like the French and more reliant on nuke plants? I dunno.
And then there are those batteries. Where do they go for disposal? How often are they replaced?
I don't think there is really any need for the vast majority of SUVs owned in the US, (or the aforementioned France which has recently found that SUVs are very popular there too) but until we get our electricty from some cleaner methods, I don't think electric cars are doing much good either.
this sig deleted by another sig
Reviews: 3-Wheelers and The independant.
Doesn't the phrase "begin selling" require someone to actually buy one of these things?
It could be a decent idea if they sold it for a few hundred bucks, but 14 grand? I could buy a real car for that amount. And don't give me any crap about how these things are better than cars, the fact remains there are numerous uses for cars which these are not suitable for such as transporting passangers, carrying other items (such as groceries, etc), driving on highways, etc.
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
It's a nice car, but isn't practical for most people. (Any room for groceries?) Personally, I like the Honda Civic Hybrid. Approx. 50 miles to the gallon, that's about 650 miles in one 13 gallon tank. And it holds several people. Still not the most fuel efficient vehicle, but it's so much better than the gas guzzling SUVs consumer America is obsessed with.
It isn't a bad thing. Frankly it's about time the UK started addressing this issue!
Wait? You say surely I'm confused?
Lets see:
Wind generation capacity:
US: 4,400,000 KW [est 2002, DOE]
UK: 0,331,000 KW[foe.co.uk]
Oh my! Even with 4.67 times the population, the UK has only 35% the per capita wind generation capacity...
Frankly, I don't disagree with that statement. Selfish newbie 4-wheelers can destroy good trails in no time flat, cause severe erosion, and worse! But seriously... Shouldn't we really be more concerned with how much more or less they are doing so? The smartest people on earth, with the largest arrays of data can only guess at the relative environmental impacts of things like this. There are not only too many factors, but we just don't know how the 'environment' works. I'll give you that they would seem to be somewhat worse in many forseeable situations... [Like sitting stuck in trafficWhy do you need a computer to read? You don't. I really can't explain 302's in trucks, except to guess that they're pretty old? Mine has a 415...
Inner-cities are a completely different discussion. With small exceptions, this is not the clientel for $14k 1 seaters with no A/C...
Oh dear, another reactionary has gone and confused progress with change again... I'm not sure exactly who you're labelling what here...
Oh gosh, now I understand. It's evil Americans.
I personally get annoyed at conservative 'everything is fine now' types AND reactionary freaks who run around labeling people evildoers...
Do you know that most idiots think they're smart? I certainly do.
;)
No no, you misunderstand, I was simply reacting against the original poster. He was referencing those who use electric cars as "traitors", and also referenced himslef as a SUV driver (as far as I am aware, not many of these have 1.3 litre engines!). The craters reference was with regard to his original comment, referring to the damage left behind by nuclear reactors.
You will also note I mentioned progress AND change, why do these have to be mutually exclusive. Does one not forgo the other? I personally welcome it.
As far as the UK and windfarms is concerned, I agree, there's been little done to bring it in, in the past, and I welcome the changes they are making. However, politically, it is causing havoc in the areas where they are installed. I don;t see the problem with it myself.
As for SUVs destroying the trails etc, they probably are, but I've been hiking all around this place and have yet to see one beeping me out of the way. However, through the main streets of Sydney you can hear and smell them a mile off. They are unnecessary (and notice I am not just referencing the USA here, I'm not a xenophobe) - just like the four-wheel drives that idle around suburbia in the UK. The analogy with reading on a computer doesn't make sense - I read on a computer because the material is easily searchable etc etc. How does taking the kids to school in a V8 compare to taking the kids to school in a 1.3 Micra? You'll get there in the same amount of time.
And I never switch my engine off in traffic jams unless I've been sat in the same spot for yonks, and am running low on fuel - do you know how much that stuff costs us??!
Finally, I disagree with you on the target demographic for the small 1 seater electric car. I think it is purposefully aimed for inner cities, where short ranges are the norm, but heavy traffic is hard to navigate. Just look at the Mercedes owned Smart car, and how popular it is in bigger cities in Europe (I know it's not electric, but it still meets the same market).
According to the web site, the battery pack is led acid, weighs just shy of 600lb, and lasts only 1 - 4 years.
If you are considering this vehicle as an eco-friendly alternative to gasoline cars, this is a huge factor. Lead acid batteries pose enormous environmental challenges, from mining, to worker lead exposure, to disposal. The only way I would even remotely consider a vehicle that could chew through a quarter ton of lead every year would be if the battery packs were recycled. What they should do is lease the battery packs, take the returns and recondition them.
IIRC, the Honda and Toyota hybrids use NiMH batteries. Nickel is not very toxic, especially compared to lead, and in fact were it not for their sheer size the battery packs could be disposed of in municipal landfills under federal regs. In principle the nickel could and should be recycled, but unfortunately neither Honda or Toyota have made a commitment to do so.
In my mind this lack of a clear recycling closes the environmental gap between hybrids and small, efficient conventional vehicles such as the Civic and Volkswagen diesels. Many people wouldn't see a dramatic mileage difference between a Toyota Prius and a Toyota Echo; but the gasoline car's proven technology might well translate to a longer service life, an a larger fraction of its components are likely to be recycled as scrap. Estimates are that 95% of the steel in scrapped autos is recovered and recycled.
In any case, this vehicle would be much cooler with NiMH batteries. The gravimetric energy density of NiMH are betwen 60-120 Wh/kg, as opposed to 30-50 for Pb-acid. So you could pack more than twice the energy in the same weight, and be talking about a 50-100 mile range instead of 20-40 miles. A NiMH battery would cost twice as much, but probably last at least twice as long, so the lifetime costs would be comparable, and the environmental costs would be much smaller.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
we've already had the future of personal transport over here for years... the Sinclair C5
they went down as well as Windows ME at a Linux Conference.
we've also done brightly coloured three-wheelers too... that design classic the Reliant Robin
However just when you think all european design sucks, take a look at the sexy Carver from the netherlands.
This is the way manufacturers will get people to buy smaller more efficient vehicles, in my opinion, by making them desirable and functional. Beautiful design wins customers, look at the success of the iPod.
Damn if I can see one of these things tipping over. it has a 4' x 8' foot print and a 57" height on 3 wheels... one good corner and whammo your toast. Get nailed by an SUV... Organ doner... Sure it looked really cool with a whale tail in the Austin Powers Gold Member, but you wanna pick up your date in one of these things? Damn, forgot, single seater just like their other unit the Merlin. At least the Merlin looked like it would stand up to a stiff side wind.
You want balls out excitement, check out T-Rex
Granted it isn't electric but it is a two seater, motorcycle engine and heart pounding fun. I got the chance to see on up close at Sturgis last year.
I hope the sparrow does do well though as it will innevitably translate into all around better transportation options in other areas.
flinging poop since 1969
It's a little more straightforward to regulate a dozen powerplants than it is to regulate ten thousand cars.
In dense cities. In particular in cities like San Francisco (assuming it can hill climb) where parking is at a premium. A vehicle this size, like a motorcycle, can park perpendicular on the street, in those tiny little slots between driveways that can't fit any regular car and which are fairly plentiful. Or perhaps in designated motorcycle parking.
That makes a big difference in quick city trips, which are actually a lot of trips for urban dwellers. They are far under 20 miles, and the biggest hassle is getting through traffic and parking.
In addition, many people have a single car garage and could fit a small vehicle on the street in those spare short spaces where a full sized vehicle would not make sense.
Of course a motorcycle can also fit these applications though they don't have a cargo area and don't fit the style of many.
Has it been over a year since you last donated to the Electronic Frontier Foundation
According to this site, electric cars produce less emissions even when you count the power plant emissions.
In a study conducted by the Los Angeles Department of Water and Power, EVs were significantly cleaner over the course of 100,000 miles than ICE cars. The electricity generation process produces less than 100 pounds of pollutants for EVs compared to 3000 pounds for ICE vehicles. (See Table 3)
Engine Type CO ROG NOx Total
Gasoline 2574 262 172 3008 lb.
Diesel 216 73 246 835 lb. Electric 9 5 61 75 lb.
http://www.windmeadow.com/
reminds me of the old joke...
a couple of solicitors are sitting round discussing strange wills that they had executed...
the first tells of his client who had always loved golf, and wanted to be buried with his golf clubs...so come the funeral the solicitor puts the clubs on top of the coffin as per his clients wishes.
The second's client loved his dog, and wanted to take it with him, so come the funeral the solicitor takes a shotgun to the dog and puts him in the coffin as per his clients wishes
That's nothing says the last solicitor, my client loved money so much that he wanted to be buried with his entire 25 milion pound fortune...
Surely you didn't do it? the others ask...
But of course, he replied...
I put a personal cheque for the full amount in the coffin....
We saw the sparrow in CycleWorld in 1998, ordered one immediately, reservation number 38. Got it in March '00, after much design/redesign/rework by Corbin. It is absolutely the coolest vehicle we've ever owned (and we've owned more than a few vehicles.) The fit and finish was excellent, and it really looks better in person than it does in photographs. We do all our own maintenance, and have upgraded quite a few things on our bird. It'll do 100 MPH, has about a 40 mile range (which is rough on the batteries, 20 gives lots more charge cycles), carries 6 Kilowatt-Hours in its 13 batteries (i.e. it'll run your laptop _and_ your cellphone both for about 2 weeks - motive power takes orders of magnitude more juice than bit-flipping, a good freeway ramp acceleration can easily draw 300 amps at 160 volts - that's 48 KW, enough power to run ten average houses).
We've talked to (literally) over 2000 interested people in the last four years of driving, and have had hundreds of people say they'd buy one "tomorrow" if Corbin were in business, or if it was made by GM, or if it got a little better range. The big problem is battery technology. Lead acid batteries are big and heavy - even the expensive hi-tech spiral-cell units are tempramental and basically hate being discharged. Better batteries exist, like NiMH or Li-Ion, but right now they would add $4000 to the price of the vehicle - once those prices come down, the.Sparrow with a Li-ion pack could have a 200 mile range. As it sits, having a plug at work is probably a good idea.
Corbin's big problem was they had a design concept, but didn't want to listen to the expertise of the engineers they had. (They employed Jeff James, Peter Senkowski, and Claire Bell at various times - all electric vehicle experts, all ignored and blamed to greater or lesser degrees) Eventually the company collapsed in a mire of pointy-haired-boss syndrome and financial impropriety.)
I'm pleased to see that Myers is looking to improve on the design, and fix some of the things which Corbin addressed with hand-waving. (Although I must say that early on, Corbin was great about supplying parts, fixing problems, and listening to our comments. Then the money got tight.) I'd also love to see the DOT decide that there was a place on our highways for a smaller vehicle - the reason the Sparrow is a three-wheeler is that it gets around thousands of expensive, heavy, or (for an electric vehicle) downright contradictory "automobile" design requirements by being classed as a "motorcycle". However, this put weight and size restrictions on the vehicle which forced compromises on range and stability. Other countries have the concept of a mini-car, which can go at speeds above 25 MPH but may not be allowed on the highest speed freeways.
I'm also glad that there's somebody to buy a replacement windshield from - I've been worried that we'll take a stone one day, and I'll have a $14,000 paperweight!
The ultimate answer, as a motorcyclist, an electrical engineer, and a dedicated geek: With knowing in advance what we'd go through finding insurance, fixing problems, breaking drive belts, changing batteries... I'd do it again in a heartbeat. The Sparrow has been an absolute blast, a total head-turner, the ultimate conversation piece, and it's won a trophy in every car show we've entered it in - even got "People's Choice" in our home-town once!
---
-- No No No NO, Don't tug on that! You never know what it might be attached to. - Buckaroo Banzai
I'm really glad you put your money where your mouth is! I have a friend who has a Sparrow and he also loves it. You make two incredibly insightful points.
1. Li-Ion/Li-Poly batteries! Exactly! Convert any existing vehicle and get roughly 3 times the range for even less weight. The laptop/cell phone/model airplane industry has been driving the market for years. They are just now starting to entire usage in people carrying vehicles. I firmly believe they will be in wide spread vehicular use in the next 10-20 years. The technology is here now, it will just take that "economy of scale" thing to make it a reality for the common person.
2. Infrastructure! I build record setting human and electric powered vehicles (check my website), and while I can build a vehicle that will go 100mph on 1 horsepower, there is simply no place to drive such a thing. The wind from an SUV/truck would hurl it off the road. I would love to see a alterative transportation network setup like rails-to-trails that allow for small and quiet vehicles. Maybe a 45 mph speed limit?
Regardless of what anyone says about the Corbin Sparrow, by purchasing one you are helping to pave the way for a cleaner more efficient transportaion system.
Thanks.
Yes, it is beautiful, but it is NOT "staggeringly well designed." Trust me on this; I was a former owner of a Sparrow, and found out -- the hard way -- that a three-wheeled, rear-driven layout is fundamentally unstable in the event of fishtail: flip, roll, totaled.
m essage/3680)
In addition, the quality of both design and construction was truly dismal. I wondered sometimes if the Corbins didn't bother to design anything ahead of time, but just sort of threw things together, bodged it around until it worked, kinda.
They had a cool concept, but absolutely no idea how to actually execute that in a reliable and profitable way, and so the Sparrows were MASSIVELY unreliable; mine was out of service for, literally, 2/3 or 3/4 of the time I owned it, and stalled -- twice! -- crossing the Bay Bridge. (Ever been stalled on the Bay Bridge? Now imagine doing so in a very small fiberglass container.)
No... there's no way this vehicle can be worthwhile without a ground-up redesign by folks who actually know what they are doing. I know nothing of Myers Motors, so maybe they are smart folks, but if they're starting with the existing design, they've already made a big mistake.
If, say, Honda, or Toyota, or even Piaggio, designed a vehicle like this, I might be interested....
(For more info on a Sparrow's crashworthiness, see: http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/sparrow_ev/
I drove one of these once. Zippy and small, but not very practical - one-seater designs have never been successful. Yes, it's economical, but I've also driven the Smart (here in North America), and it's a much better car, even if it does consume gas/diesel.
Yes, it is beautiful, but it is NOT "staggeringly well designed." Trust me on this; I was a former owner of a Sparrow, and found out -- the hard way -- that a three-wheeled, rear-driven layout is fundamentally unstable in the event of fishtail: flip, roll, totaled.
Here's a vehicle that solves that problem: Carver
I have a positive modifier on Troll. When I mod someone Troll their karma should go UP!
Have you noticed the one made for Austin Powers "Goldmember"..that looks a lot better than the original..maybe that's the way to go
The best planning can be done after the project completes.
Since all of the journalists doing standups in front of Three Mile Island later died from leukemia, one can conclude that Teds Oldsmobile must have been one hell of a killer machine ;-)
send + more == money?
Where's the Trunk?
Will this thing fit anything other than the driver? With a 20mile range (requring most people to recharge it at work, good luck finding a plug), and no cargo room (can you figure out where to put your laptop/groceries?), you might as well ride a bike.
(the commute will take 1-1.5hrs on a bike, you can carry a signifigant cargo capacity, and all you need to recharge is a snickers bar)
On a side note, would this little thing FIT an average American? I'm not exadgerating. I woudn't want to figure out how to cram a 250lb male into one of these things. (especialy since that would constitute 1/6 the combined mass of the car)
Actually this would be a nice vehicle if it sat 2.
(say one behind the other?)
I would rather be ashes than dust!