Slashdot Mirror
Time to Try a Linux Desktop?
bigbadwlf writes "EWeek has an opinion column, posted yesterday titled, Isn't Now the Time to Try a Linux Desktop? Quote: 'The crackers currently have the whip hand over Windows, and Microsoft's assertion that Internet Explorer is now part of the operating system shows its flawed reasoning. Worried sick about the latest rash of Internet Explorer security problems? I have the perfect solution for you, one that's even better than switching to Mozilla, Firefox or Opera. Switch operating systems: Go to Linux.'"
Some one is getting the picture, remove the software of shame, attach the software of triumph!
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. - Voltaire
The people who are constantly getting hit with viruses, spyware, IE holes, etc. are exactly the kind of people who would have a hard time getting used to and accepting Linux. Most of the potential switchers (like me, for instance) already have their Windows boxes well-protected. There needs to be a better reason than just "it's not Windows" to entice me to convert.
the problem is, that for your actual "average user", they will say, "where is my MS Office" and "where is my internet explorer" and I need my Norton Anti-Virus. Linux is great, but it's not for the average user yet. An acquainance of mine can't get over the fact that his win xp box doesn't have a floppy disk drive. What would he do if I took his start menu away?
Just like the year before.
How about trying a FreeBSD desktop instead of Linux?
Actually, if Microsoft factored their code properly there would be almost nothing to Internet Explorer -- a few high level calls to standard libraries and that would be that. Agreed, this isn't what they've done (although they might be fooling themselves into thinking this is what they've done) -- but it isn't an inherently bad thing to say that Internet Explorer is "part of the operating system" so much as saying the "operating system" itself should be nothing but a nanokernel. Even Linux fails in that regard.
Seastead this.
... to be pushing the Linux desktop? I'm a linux user, have been for quite a while, and am trying to get my parents and friend using it. However, Linux STILL has many problems that keep it from being THE OS choice for everyone, even once you get around the user-friendliness issues (having not tried any of the more polished desktop distros, I can't comment on these issues.) Application compatibility: Many people use crummy applications that don't stand a chance for porting to Linux. Pinnacle, my mother's video editor of choice, comes to mind. Also, some people, though there are better pieces of alternative software, still are so stuck on their old apps, they refuse to switch to a superior alternative Hardware Compatibility: Every time I go out to buy a piece of hardware, or even to go drool over the latest pieces of hardware, I find myself thinking first, "Can Linux support this yet?" This creates a problem for the user that wants to go out, buy a peripheral, plug it in, and have it work. I'm not saying Linux won't be ready for the desktop very soon (because I think it will be QUITE soon,) but I just think that perhaps now is a little early to say "Switch to Linux. Like, now."
If you are really hardcore I suggest trying tron on the desktop. Now that would be something to write about!
Security Center Editor Larry Seltzer takes a different view of the bug in Mozilla on Windows. Click here to read more.
I'm clicking but I'm not getting any reading. I assume this is the same for everyone else. For anyone who wants to read the article that wasn't linked properly, check here:
Larry Seltzer on Mozilla Flaw
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
"we've been through these discussions over and over again. linux is NOT a suitable desktop operating system for the majority of users. most users do NOT want to spend a whole lot of time reading documentation on how to setup/configure their system, and most find it fustrating."
What about when most users had Windows 3.1? Setting that up wasn't practical for an end user either, as it required the ability to physically set hardware addresses, configure things through the MCI control panel that were a little less than intuitive, and knowledge of how Program Manager tied into the actual programs.
Sell a preloaded computer with Linux to the masses, and I'm not just talking e-Machines or Walmart, and the books will follow. The "ten easy things to do in Linux" columns in laymans' computer magazines will follow.
People may not patch or compile their own kernels or programs, but that's okay. That's why distributions with package management utilities exist. I don't know about you, but I haven't had to compile anything by hand in quite some time since switching to Debian.
Most users where I work at don't have a clue anyway, so not having a clue in Linux isn't any worse than not having a clue in Windows. In fact, once they're shown the basics of how there are no drive letters and how things are just off of / I suspect that they'll work with it just fine, and they will have a significantly harder time breaking the system into pieces with stuff off of the Internet.
Do not look into laser with remaining eye.
It's the OS all your Windows applications and games won't run on...
.NET or Cocoa, instead of these 20 or so different APIs which require that I install all of them since everybody likes to code for different ones instead of coding to a standard.
It's not that easy to just tell someone, "Well, IE had a security exploit so it's time to switch to Linux!" The Linux desktop has usability and infrastructure issues. I don't expect them to remain forever, but it is sure taking a long time, and by then Apple's next version of MacOS will be out along with Windows Longhorn, and it will be another decade of playing catch-up with their new technologies.
I think right now the biggest thing I see keeping away commercial developers is the lack of a single binary installation/uninstallation API integrated into the desktop environment. You just can't be sure your app will still run in 5 years. Can you still run a Red Hat RPM you got in 1997? Windows can still run apps from 1991. In addition, a unified API akin to
I guess that's it, really--you can't expect the Linux desktop to become standard if it doesn't embrace any standards itself. Now, I know a lot of people like that facet of Linux, and that's cool. I'm just saying, don't be surprised if it never takes off in the mainstream as a result. It has a long, long way to go, most of it internal infrastructure issues (the fact we're still using X11 is embarrassing).
You could use Linux and give up your games, and 90% of your other apps...
OR...
Ditch IE and Outlook (together responsible for 99% of Windows problems right now) install Services for UNIX on your Windows XP/2003 box and run all of your Windows apps and games PLUS all of your UNIX apps.
Sorry, but Windows still controls the applications universe.
- Adam L. Beberg - The Cosm Project - http://www.mithral.com/
To truly compete against Windows, GNU/Linux needs to have a line of hardware, clearly marked, that it will work flawlessly with. Big distros like Suse and Mandrake need to focus on courting hardware companies to prominantly mark their products with Tux. Period.
Not just desktop computers, either. You need to have everything from laptops to USB thumb drives to MP3 players to digital cameras and camcorders. Your computer IS your digital hub.
Linux users need to get in the habit of acting like Mac users. They don't have the hardware support, so they need to make it blatantly obvious what hardware does work with their platform.
The other big thing Linux needs to survive (other than Quicken and TurboTax) is Office VBA compatibility. In the Enterprise, this is essential. There are plenty of BASICs out there, why hasn't OO.org incorporated one of them?
Wrong. You're another victum of slashdot sensationalism. The original story had the wrong bugzilla ID and had nothing to do with the security issue. The correct one is much more current and was handled in a timely manner.
The article's basic assumption is that Internet-related work is the defining factor in what OS I choose. Adobe hasn't released a Linux version of Photoshop, Illustrator, or InDesign. Many other apps I use on a daily basis are either just not released for Linux, or are at the status of someone's pet project on SourceForge. This is not to knock the wide array of software that is available for Linux, but the software needed for me to do all my daily work is not quite there yet.
In the meantime, I use Firefox for Windows which is nicely patched (and quite quickly patched at that).
Yesterday I was working on my mom's boyfriend's computer, which I installed a fresh copy of XP on a couple days prior. Already, there were bluescreens during shutdown/reboot (due to IRQ conflicts with our precious plug-n-play system), Adaptec CD-Creator wouldn't print labels (but everything else would print fine), and right-clicking on My Computer to go to properties would yield a cryptic registry-based error before opening properties. He had AOL 9.0 installed as his only Internet connection. I was using that to download drivers, and search for other things (such as "workarounds" for the ever annoying XP Activation), and IE would hang at just about every other website I would go to, rendering everything else I was doing on the computer useless until it freed it's resources. I found myself getting completely frustrated after about 10 minutes of working on this hunk of *$&#, because I couldn't even browse the web to fix the original problems. I installed FireFox, and that helped a lot with the browsing issues.
All I want to say, is that I've been using Debian Linux for about 5 years now, and just switched from using the "ultra-elite" Fluxbox WM to Gnome 2.6 since it got uploaded to Unstable, and I have had absolutely 0 problems. It JUST WORKS. It's easy enough for my mom's boyfriend to figure out. Even the horridly cryptic "gconf-editor" is easier to get around than regedit. I don't see why anybody in their right mind would still fend for Windows when they have a completely usable, prettier, faster alternative with 99% of applications able to do what Windows apps can already do.
SWITCH TO LINUX!!
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
Just two days ago, a marketing VP I know called to bash Microsoft. He'd lost "thousands of e-mail addresses" (he's not a spammer, just well-connected) because he had answered "Ok" when Windows asked if he wanted to "repair" something.
He wanted me to walk him through installing Linux, right then and there -- over the phone. So I did. I said, "Well, what I recommend is you get your feet wet, first". I Asked him how he used his laptop; What were the applications he couldn't live without; What were the ones he liked but could live without, etc.
Then I said, "You know, all the applications you mention are ones that will run on both Linux and Windows. Why don't you download and install them, first on Windows, get to know them and then switch all the way to Linux, once you've adjusted?".
He agreed to give my recommendation a try, and that was it. Storm calmed. About an hour later, he called back to say he'd found the file containing his address book and had "reconnected it to Outlook". Problem solved.
Seems like, recently, I've run into more and more awareness of (at least the word) Linux. It's becoming a great "save" me" point when clients get frustrated with Windows. They just want to give Microsoft the big heave-ho! And, though I and everyone in my home and office have been Microsoft-free since 1998, I find myself talking people out of taking the plunge.
I wish there was a distribution that gave me the confidence I need to recommend it. Since all I know is DEC, Solaris and RedHat/Fedora, perhaps I should buy a copy of Linspire and try it out -- for clients' sake. Any other suggestions for helping people transition?
...but those who could use Linux (i.e. using a limited set of common applications that are also available for Linux) simply aren't persons to "try out" anything.
Here, I set up a Linux desktop for my parents (actually, it was more of a Linux server for me, we simply added keyboard/mouse/screen), and it turns out they use it more than Windows. Properly set up with a cron job to update itself, it should be nearly maintenance-free.
Personally, I run Windows on my main machine (+ X server to run Linux apps) because there are simply so much I'm not ready to let go of, and emulation in Linux.... well, in my experience it's either a) very slow (typically VM solution) or b) difficult and buggy (emulation / system call translation ).
Linux is making big inroads in the corporate market. Don't expect to see any serious migration on the desktop until that has happened. After all, that is where most non-computer interested people get their computer experience and knowledge.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I recently decided to give Mandrake 10.0 a shot, and I am pleansantly suprised! Except for a few minor glitches that were easy to iron out it installed perfectly on the first try! I would say it's equally as easy as a Windows install.
Also, after setting up the http mirrors I found that software installation was incredibly simple. I was able to install everything I needed in just a few mouse clicks. This included everything from Apache/PHP/mySQL to silly stuff like Gaim.
This is the first Linux install I've ever had where I didn't have to edit at least a couple text files to get it to run properly. I would reccomend it as a great "Linux Desktop" for the Average Joe user.
Wine HQ
TransGaming Technologies
How about in practice? I switched my parents to linux. They had no problems using it. And believe me, my parents are far from computer savvy (my mother couldn't figure out how to install new fonts in windows). My girlfriend was curious as to what linux was like - I gave her a knoppix CD, and she figured everything else out herself.
Have your mom go buy a new printer and scanner and try to install it. Have them try to install an application themselves.
We always hear about people who have switched their non-computer-savvy relatives to Linux, but that doesn't mean anything. It's the computer-savvy people you need to target. People who do nothing else but write e-mail, surf eBay, and keep family photos can use pretty much anything from OS X to Windows 95 to KDE. It's not saying much to brag that Linux can use a printer or surf the net. It's when people want to install a new video card, or perhaps a new DVD burner, or perhaps they want to hook up a microphone and try some recording, or maybe they want to play The Sims 2, or maybe they want to install (or better yet, uninstall) an application. Perhaps they'd like to switch from dialup to DSL.
There are a million different possibilities that go beyond someone's grandma who just uses Linux to browse MSN and check their e-mail. I mean, big deal. There's more to a desktop than that.
Will those run on Linux?
we've been through these discussions over and over again. linux is NOT a suitable desktop operating system for the majority of users. most users do NOT want to spend a whole lot of time reading documentation on how to setup/configure their system, and most find it fustrating.
The moment most users using Windows can setup their own printer, remove spyware, or reconfigure their network settings in Windows without having to call upon the tech person they know, then you have a valid point.
But most users using Windows can't do that in Windows, so what makes you think Linux will be any more difficult?
Jason Lotito
Personally, I'd rather have new stuff come out, fixing the bugs (which is what the articles about) and providing new features not available in Windows-land, instead of having my OS sit around in a pile of its own security-weaknesses and have old, buggy, cranky, obselete programs from '91.
Personally, I find that Windows XP has serious issues running anything that needs DOS emulation, while there are sometimes no modern alternatives. On the other hand, linux hackers release new apps almost as quick as the kernel hackers, so we're alright. Sure, this may not suit a corporation, but hey, for the moment it's alright for the user.
im in ur
Ask yourself this--what do you think someone is going to say when you tell them they have to run a Windows API simulator to run their Windows applications? They'll just ask you with a smirk, "Then why don't I just run actual Windows?"
The rest of the world doesn't share the anti-Microsoft, almost religious viewpoint that Linux is the better operating system just because it's open source and UNIX-like. They'll want actual reasons to switch. At most, they'll just use Firefox on Windows if you try to bring up IE insecurities.
and spend the enire week trying to find out how to get your printer to work
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
It's not like it used to be. Check out Knoppix (from www.knoppix.org). It's a bootable distro that you can install. It will support almost anything you want (everything on my laptop works!)
Agile Artisans
We always hear about people who have switched their non-computer-savvy relatives to Linux, but that doesn't mean anything. It's the computer-savvy people you need to target. People who do nothing else but write e-mail, surf eBay, and keep family photos can use pretty much anything from OS X to Windows 95 to KDE.
Um, that was my point. The original post said complained that it was the unaware computer-phobic people that are being asked to switch (due to all the viruses, spyware and the like), but such people are incapable of using Linux. All I said was that that was quite possibly rubbish. You are here agreeing with me. I agree entirely that the computer savvy windows user is much less likely to change. So what? You say "It's the computer-savvy people you need to target", but I don't need to do anything. I switched my parents to linux because, quite frankly, it is easier for them to use. I have no aims for linux global domination, or the destruction of the windows empire - I just want to make my parents computing experience a little less painful.
Have your mom go buy a new printer and scanner and try to install it. Have them try to install an application themselves.
Actually they've done both already. I bought a nice boxed distribution for them complete with a little manual. They read that, and followed the instructions.
Perhaps they'd like to switch from dialup to DSL.
They're planning on doing that eventually actually. Then again, with the distribution they're using that is no harder to do than it is on windows (there's a nice setup wizard that you just step through).
Sure, there are still issues that they'll run into occasionally, but then they ran into plenty of issues on windows too. In general linux has been easier for them to use, not harder. Yes, that's largely because they aren't very computer savvy, and will struggle with basic administration tasks regardless of what they are using, but THAT'S THE POINT. For them it is easier, and that's all I'm worried about.
Jedidiah.
Craft Beer Programming T-shirts
So, where's the Free CAD drafting program?
Free COGO suite to work with?
Hey, I know - a good Free PCB design toolchain!
Wait... do these exist? If they do, are they even remotely comparable to the proprietary equivalents?
For some of us, its about getting something useful done. Go be Free; I'm going to do something useful.
---
Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
(I read with sigs off.)
I sincerely believe that what is keeping Linux off the desktop is Linux developers themselves. Their focus is completely wrong. Take a company like Apple for example. When they develop any piece of software, their primary focus is the interface. They first try to make the GUI as easy to use as possible, so a normal user can access all the functions of the software in an intuitive manner. The software is then written to facilitate the GUI. Howerver, first and foremost, it is Apples policy that a user should NEVER have to see a CLI.
Linux developers, on the other hand, have the opposite approach. They write software to perform a certain function, without much concern for the GUI. The GUI is later added out of necessity, with a clumsy attempt to twist it so that it can acommodate software that was written primarily with the CLI in mind. This is one of the reasons Linux users turn to the CLI so often. The GUI simply fails to do what it should do at times.
I personally find it unbelievable that in the year 2004, there is still an operating system where you actually have to use a CLI to install a device driver. I mean, I haven't had to do that since the days of DOS. Linux may be a great OS, but there has to be a complete reversal in the approach to designing software if it is to be accepted in the general population.
Look at OS X. A fully functional UNIX CLI exists. However, most Mac users will never see it. It is as transparent as it was in the days of OS 9 (when there was no CLI). As long as Linux is a OS developed by geeks for geeks it will never penetrate the desktop market.
Reasons why linux is ready for desktop
Gnome: Makes it as easy as working on windows.
KDE: Eye candy that gnome might lack.
Kpackage: Makes installing and uninstalling as easy as clicking a pretty button, for atleast deb based distros.
Knoppix: Preconfigured debian.
Mandrake: One of the most user friendly distros out there.
Suse: This is another one of those.
Reasons why linux is not ready for desktop
* It needs to work for everything out of the box. This means no kernel recompilations. Users should be able to install any distro without having to check their hardware (although not a fault of developers. Hardware manufacturers need to support linux, but commen users dont understand that)
* People cant add and remove hardware from their desktops and laptops without any hassales.
* The major killer apps need to work seamlessly. Browsers and email are in pretty good shape. But DVD playback and high-performance games need to be worked on. Again like unsupported hardware
* Needs everything standarized instead of scattered around.
Overall, Linux is _not_ ready for desktop yet. There are still stuff that needs to be fixed and taken care of. Developers should rather concentrate more of fixing these issues before introducing new ones.
Disclaimer: I support linux all the way. I use gentoo as my main os, infact I boot to windows only for some casual gaming. Although I do acknowledge linux developers and what they do, I still think that there should be a general interest among them instead of everyone trying to reinvent the wheel.
[ I can not bring myself to believe that if knowledge presents danger, the solution is ignorance ] -- Isaac Asimov
Let's face it I don't have to be a car mechanic to drive a car for my convenience so I don't have to be a CS graduate in order to be able to use my computer. Most people (the VAST majority of the MS crowd) don't care! That's right, they don't care about CS, about linux, about MS, about IE about anything. Why should they care? When was the last time a car dealer sold you a car on the condition that you'll take car-mechanic classes or crash-courses or enlist to online support forums? People buy a computer to use it for their job or convenience right out of the box. The rest is intellectual wars from people that are personally involved in IT or CS or Tech Science in general and assume some sort of importance by declaring their preferences.
What MS created and keeps creating is an OS that even that last computer illiterate can use with no problem. It has gone a long way that way but now it is time for them to reverse a bit and patch up the security holes they user-friendly OS architecture created.
Linux on the other hand started from the other end by creating a robust system on a solid architecture and slowly crawling to user-friendliness. The year Linux will meet with MS midway will be the year of the Linux.
Yam, yam, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade, uga booga, yam, yam, yade, yade
They could really care less if their PC is turned into a spam zombie..
If they can still run their games, and balance their check book... it doesnt effect them so they dont care..
Nor do they care about the costs, or that they are feeding an evil monopoly.
*we* care, but the 'real world' doesnt...
---- Booth was a patriot ----
konqueror is not integrated into the desktop in the way Internet Explorer is integrated into the Windows OS. It makes use of the KDE infrastructure, but even if you use KDE, you can easily deinstall konqueror.
E.g. in Debian I type "apt-get remove konqueror" and I won't see konqueror ever again. I can still use all of KDE and enjoy the web with mozilla, opera, whatever. [I prefer konqueror to opera and mozilla-firefox, though. ATM I prefer mozilla-thunderbird to kmail due to easier IMAP spam filtering]
There are no similarities to the IE/Windows chimera, where upgrading the OS requires the browser and where there is no clear separation between apps and OS infrastructure and data.
Moritz
Simplified, everything in /bin is core operating system stuff like the shell, permissions tools like chmod, etc.
Additional tools that provide extra functionality to the system like editors, Internet clients (ftp, etc) generally go in /usr/bin.
Applications installed by users generally go in the /home/[user]/bin.
All of these directories normally live in the shell search-path although there is a security issue with putting home directories in that path - therefore some distributions will not do that by default.
You are always able to change your search path and you can interrogate RPM to find out where it has installed all of the files from a particular package - it's just about familiarity.
Please remember that the big upside of UNIX over Windows is that user-specific configuration files always live in the user's home directory so it is very easy to delete a rogue configuration file & start again.
In Windows, not only do you have progressive registry bloat over time but it is very easy to trash a Windows machine simply by removing the wrong key from the registry.
I would also add that you're thinking about UNIX in entirely the wrong way. With Windows, you have a totally GUI-based OS with some additional functionality at the command prompt. However, in UNIX, the power is at the command prompt but a lot of applications have GUI front-ends to make them more intuitive - but even so, the GUI is just another set of programs that you can choose to run or not to run.
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
For people that consider computers a hobby, the CLI provides a powerful tool to explore the inner workings of the machine. What you have to realize, though, is that for most people it has become an appliance. Like you said, it is no different than a toaster or a fridge for these people. Tell me, do you know how to repair your fridge if something goes wrong. I would guess that you would call someone to fix it for you. Now if cooling systems were your hobby, you might know the internal workings of the system and fix it yourself.
Back in the days of DOS (and much earlier) computers were only used in a very limited capacity by most people. When I was nine (I'm 26 now) very few people actually knew how to use a computer (i chose this date becuase it is when I actually got my own computer). Very few people actually bothered using a computer. It was used to a limited extent in offices for word processing, and some spreadsheet applications. However, it was far from ubiquotous as it is today. Therefore, back then the computer was primarily a hobbyist item. So many people who used computer were actually interested in learning the workings of the machine, since it was primarily for that purpose that they owned one.
The computer is now an appliance like any other. It has to be as easy to use, and as intuitive, as any other appiance. The simple fact of the matter is that Linux can not succeed in the appliance marketplace untill it starts to behave like an appliance. The computer is complex enough that hobbyists will staill beable to have their fun. The CLI will persist, however It should be well hidden from the user.
The problem with your argument is that while geeks like you or I may enjoy working with more complicated-but more powerful-tools, The average user has no desire to be bothered with it.
It's like saying that I should build my own car and tune it myself to go 150 MPH. While it would be nice for me to learn about the mechanics of the internal combustion engine, and to get the power that comes with learning how to painstakingly tune it myself, I have no desire to put forth the effort. I know how to check, fill, and change fluids, check my tire pressure, keep an eye on the idiot lights. I just want to get into the car and have the bloomin thing work. It gets extra points if it's a comfortable ride, and I wouldn't complain if there was some extra power behind it, but I basically have the minimum information needed to use the car to get to places where I will do more enjoyable things.
Joe User is the same way with his computer. Make it work without much effort, make it look nice, and let it be fun once in a while. He probably only uses it until he's done what he needed to do today, and then he moves on to what he *really* wants to do.
I'm planning to celebrate when Linux moves from 1% to 2% on the Google Zeitgeist OS pie chart.
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
iTunes. Wouldn't it be great if iTunes had more than one front-end? Say maybe a web interface so you can access it from another computer in your home? Or maybe even a command-line interface so it is easier to access from a device with a small screen (or low bandwidth), like your PDA.
I started off as a Mac user, but I've since learned that there is a place for the CLI. It has a higher learning curve, but for some operations it is a much better tool.