From Your PC to Reality in 3 Easy Steps

aelbric writes "PC Magazine is running an on some entrepreneurial businesses that are taking an interesting approach to prototyping and one-off manufacturing. Apparently, you can send in schematics for circuit boards to Pad2Pad, where they will quote, build and ship you a part based on your exact specifications. There is also reference to eMachineShop, for those of you more mechanically inclined, for building some home projects. Design the part on your PC, send it to the shop electronically, recieve custom built component(s). "

Comments

fp?

[mrtroy]

id like to think so!

Duplicate article

[Animats]

Get a clue, editors.

Re:Duplicate article

[Anonymous Coward]

This is getting to be like spam. For example, I've known about this service for more than a year. Slashdot posts an article about it then bam, a week later, the same thing. If it's a case of Karma Whoring, I'd be in favor of downgrading the karma of anyone who posts a duplicate article submission, putting the oness on the submitter to ensure it's not a duplicate.

Re:Duplicate article

[vinit79]

putting the oness on the submitter
and the twos and threes :) ok ok bu the onus of the mispell is on the submitter

Re:Duplicate article

[the_mad_poster]

Not flamebait at all. He seeks the truth.

Re:Duplicate article

[Rick the Red]

Stupid me, I've been submitting original stories (and getting them rejected). I should have been submitting stories the editors already accepted! We know they like those!

And how, exactly, is the first post "Flamebait"? Oh, I forgot, the editor's get to moderate first, and any criticism of them is modded down. Hey, Editors -- instead of scrutinizing the comments and modding down anything critical of you, why don't you do your fucking JOB instead, and EDIT the damn submissions in the first place? What's the point of letting subscribers see the stories first if you don't listen to their feedback and eliminate dupes?

Re:Duplicate article

[Anonymous Coward]

Stop spending so much time here. I'd never seen the duplicate story, but I only stop by every other day.

Re:Duplicate article

[Rick the Red]

Go ahead, "flamebait" me. I've got karma to burn here, and a life to live outside /.

It really bothers me that A) there's no place within Slashdot to discuss Slashdot, so we do it here where it's clearly offtopic, and B) the damn "editors" give real Editors a bad name. They should change their titles. Don't call yourselves "editors" if you're not going to do any editing. You're acting like Overloards, so call yourselves that. Or "Rangers" or whatever. Just not "editor," OK? Because if you think you're really an Editor, sorry man, but you suck at it.

But you're damn fine Overloards :-)

Re:Duplicate article

[ncc74656]

there's no place within Slashdot to discuss Slashdot

The first rule of Slashdot is, you do not talk about Slashdot.

Re:Duplicate article

[Anonymous Coward]

the damn "editors" give real Editors a bad name.

They didn't seem to be doing their jobs here:

PC Magazine is running an on some entrepreneurial businesses

My guess is that there should be a word between "an" and "on".

Dupe?

[SeanTobin]

Wow... this is almost but not quite exactly like this story!

Re:Dupe?

[Anonymous Coward]

lol... a post about a story dupe modded as redundant!

Re:Dupe?

[Anonymous Coward]

SELECT `karma` FROM `users` WHERE `userid`=138474;

karma
---------
-25
(1 row)

Re:Dupe?

[Anonymous Coward]

no kidding, it should be modded as -1 dipshit cause its not a dupe anyways.

Circuit boards are different then chunks of formed metal, ok kids?

Re:Dupe?

[bfoz]

Actually, it is a dupe from 5 days ago. Here's the orginal /. article.

stupid...

[coyote4til7]

first post?

Anyway... sounds very interesting. I'll looking forward to playing with it myself...

It's not really the design

[Space cowboy]

that's difficult (at least for electronics), it's the realisation. If I have a spartan-3 FPGA in an FG456 package, I need it professionally soldered onto the board - finding that facility for small runs (ie: 1 :-) at reasonable rates is a far harder proposition than firing up Eagle and creating a design.

I know pad2pad will assemble some of the more commonplace components, but I can't see them running to large-sized chips, and anything up to a QFP100, I can do myself anyway...

Simon

Re:It's not really the design

[NoMercy]

I know this company in the UK can produce boards (not going to get a track between pads though with there board manafacture tolerances), who also apply FGPA's to the board and can do x-ray checks to ensure the device is secured, it's not cheep, but if you wanted cheep you wouln't be using BGA's :)

http://www.newburyelectronics.co.uk/

Re:It's not really the design

[AKAImBatman]

Maybe I'm missing something, but haven't hardware developers been able to do this for a long time? When I was hardware hacking back in the 1980s, I remember several companies that would take a circuit board design (presumably tested on prototyping breadboard first) and manufacture it in whatever quantities you needed. I think there were even a few chip fabs that could chuck you out a calculator chip in no time. (Although I think all the modern fabs require large runs.)

Re:It's not really the design

[Smallpond]

There are a lot of companies who will do small runs of PC boards for you, but you have to give them finished layouts (gerber files). This gut provides the tools to do the layout as well as doing the boards, so it saves you a huge investment in software and learning a layout system.

Machine shops are the same way. If you design something in AutoCad and give them a finished print, they will quote on it and make you a part. His adavntage again is providing the tools and doing the quote instantly.

Most websites for machine shops are a single static page with a name and phone number, or scanned images of a paper catalog. This guy is 10 years more advanced in internet technology (and that's 70 dog years).

Re:It's not really the design

[Space cowboy]

These places may be 10-a-penny around your way, but they're rarer than hens teeth, as far as I can see.

There's lots of places that'll do you a PCB. No problem there. There's fewer places that'll add assembly of SMT components (BGA arrays can't be done without the specialist equipment :-( There are very few places (at least in my experience) who will take on a small quantity (like, er, 1 :-)

The guy who responded first has found one such, and a 1 dm^2 PCB with a single BGA device attached is £180, or ~$300. That's actually very good :-) Most will be slightly cheaper (say £150 / $240) but require a minimum run of 10 pieces. Ouch.

I've bookmarked his suggestion :-))

Simon

Re:It's not really the design

[Anonymous Coward]

That's because most machine shops are run by people with so many more pressing matters on hand just dealing with local business that they don't have time to develop sophisticated websites. Generally they spend so much time correcting customers' horribly faulty schematics (to make it possible to even make the part) that there's no reason for them to seek out horribly drawn blueprints from around the world.

Re:It's not really the design

[Christopher Thomas]

There are a lot of companies who will do small runs of PC boards for you, but you have to give them finished layouts (gerber files). This gut provides the tools to do the layout as well as doing the boards, so it saves you a huge investment in software and learning a layout system.

Check Freshmeat for "circuit board", and you will find many CAD programs that don't involve large financial outlays. I use PCB, myself.

There's still a learning curve for the interface, but the time spent learning it is much less than the time spent actually designing boards.

Re:It's not really the design

[carn1fex]

I agree, a professional electronics technician is no cheap fellow, nor should he be. And i dont understand why this is even relevant, pc board manufacturers have worked this way as long as i can remember. You design your own board in any number of packages, email/upload/whatever a standardized version to the factory and voila, it appears a week later. These guys will even give you a free bag of popcorn with your board. :)

Re:It's not really the design

[Perdo]

Toaster oven...

http://www.seattlerobotics.org/encoder/200006/ov en _art.htm

Re:It's not really the design

[Space cowboy]

These work well for the QFP packages, but aren't reliable enough for the BGA packages that larger chips come in - the 'pins' are in a square array under the chip, similar to an Athlon or P4, but not as extended. Bridges are a definite no-no, and once it's attached you can't alter which 'pins' have been bridged...

To do fine-pitch QFP, you only need to run the solder all along the pins anyway, then use braid to remove the bridges - no need for an oven. Flux helps :-)

ATB,
Simon.

Re:It's not really the design

[dslbrian]

There are a lot of companies who will do small runs of PC boards for you, but you have to give them finished layouts (gerber files). This gut provides the tools to do the layout as well as doing the boards, so it saves you a huge investment in software and learning a layout system.

There are a few places that provide free software and easy online ordering for PCB manufacture. One place I've used before with good results is expresspcb. Cost can be as low as $50ish for bare boards up to say $200-$300 for a small run of boards with solder masks and silkscreen. Even with solder masks and silkscreen they can make a board and ship it to your door inside of a week. Very cool stuff.

Re:It's not really the design

[JCOTTON]

What is to stop me from
1. downloading their design software,
2. designing my board, and then
3. printing out the board design myself, and
4. burining the board myself?

It is a realatively simple process to make pc boards once you have a design and template. It is similar to printing and developing photographs (using film and chemicals, remember that?)
COBOL will never die.

Re:It's not really the design

[uberdave]

True. However, it is the one off machined mechanical parts that caught my eye. Although in theory I could make the parts myself, I lack the tools, materials, and experience to do the job properly. I can see where it would be helpful to be able to order whatever is needed off of the internet. Meccano can only go so far.

Re:It's not really the design

[CommieLib]

This is a good point. If these firms became large and commonplace enough, perhaps they would influence the design of the components, i.e., components would be specifically designed so that they could be easily and cheaply fabricated in this manner. This has some really interesting implications.

For example, imagine buying a DVD player that a local fabber "printed" off for you. You purchased it online at a site that functions essentially as a services broker for local suppliers, i.e., enter your zipcode and search a catalog of products that is determined by a database of the capabilities of fabber companies within a certain delivery zone of your house.

If fabber scientists are really clever, they'll design the components so that they can be easily disassembled as well, so that components can be endlessly recycled. When this happens, the hardware business model becomes much more like the software model, with users turning in their DVD players each year for a newer model.

Upon a moment's consideration, there are not that many products that couldn't be produced in this manner. Where the business model allows it is another question of course, but in ticking off the last few non-grocery items I've purchased (DVD, charcoal grill, game controller) there's no structural reason why they couldn't all have been produced by a local (if speculative) fabber shop, with an interplay of some design changes and an increase in price.

Re:It's not really the design

[AKAImBatman]

Agreed. I was originally just looking at the Pad2Pad stuff. The eMachineShop has all kinds of possibilities. For example, my wife is very good at drawing horses. To date, she's just been burning the images into "craft" wood pieces. With eMachineShop, she could draw up a laser etched, aluminum work-of-art and have it inexpensively cut on a (very expensive) laser cutter!

And think of all the money I could make by selling tourists some sort of Injection Molded trinket! I'd be rich! BWHAHAHA! Erm... ok, I'm getting a little carried away here. Seriously, though. How many zoos and museums make a killing off of those 2 dollar injection molding machines? People love the little animals or dinosaurs they get out of them.

Re:It's not really the design

[bsd4me]

If fabber scientists are really clever, they'll design the components so that they can be easily disassembled as well, so that components can be endlessly recycled.

This is already done. Often times with prototypes, the most expensive parts are removed and put on the next rev of the prototype.

Re:It's not really the design

[Jester99]

Nothing. But so what?

There's plenty of open source design tools. So it's not like they're losing money by you using theirs; you could've used others for free too.

But for those of us who don't have a board fab plant in our basement, and still need circuit boards made for us, it's nice to have people to pay to do it. And if these guys have a fully automated website with a one-week turnaround, that's even better.

So... what's your point again?

Re:It's not really the design

[Smallpond]

Thanks! PCB installed on my linux box and looks really well polished and well documented (for OSS). The libraries that came with it are great. I plan on being up all night playing with this.

Re:It's not really the design

[Lumpy]

that is the spot I run into... too many new high performance processors and embedded chips come in the abortion packaging that is BGA (Ball Grid Array) that is almost 100% impossible for a home inventor/engineer to solder on a board. yes I can get a BGA socket for 12X the price of the processor and only if I buy 30 of them. (Note BGA chips come in random and intentionally different sizes just to piss off the engineering people.)

I can work surface mount without a problem (I find it easier than DIP and through hole components)

I just wonder why manufacturers dont think of the prototype engineer when they make a item in a impossible to use outside of a full blown assembly facility like BGA chips? why cant they offer it at a 20% premium as a leaded chip or a QFP or at minimum on a fricking carrier board?

not to mention that electronics supply houses are way behind the ball on supplying surface mount components. I find a stash of lots of motherboards and sattelite recievers as well as other gear is my best source for surface mount parts. I havent bought a cap or resistor in 4 years because of it.

Re:It's not really the design

[HeyLaughingBoy]

Maybe I'm missing something

You're not. The only thing "new" about this is that it made it into PC Magazine.

That and it's a dupe http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/16/203022 2&tid=137&tid=216 from a few days ago, but that's nothing "new" :-)

Re:It's not really the design

[HeyLaughingBoy]

saves you a huge investment in software and learning a layout system

Nothing will save you from having to learn any system you choose.

For years, I used the free PADSPCB demo version that was limited to 70 parts and ran on DOS. PCB/Schematic editor with forward and back annotation, Gerber/Excellon output, a semi-useful autorouter. I loved that thing! Made a lot of money using it and never needed anything more sophisticated. They later limited the demo version to only 20 components because a lot of small manufacturers (like me!) were not bothering to pay the $k for the full version since the demo version was all they needed. Copies of it are probably still floating around the net, but I couldn't tell you where to look.

Since retiring all my Windows/DOS machines, I now have Cadsoft Eagle which runs on Linux, but I haven't made any boards with it yet. Anyway, my point is that at least some versions of Eagle are freely downloadable from the CadSoft website.

Re:It's not really the design

[Anonymous Coward]

I can understand the reasoning for using BGA for the high speed stuff and easy of manufacturing.

We are doing bleeding edge stuff at work and can do pretty exotic things if we can justify for it. Even then with our manufacturing guide, I have to tell vendor that they cannot sell us 0.8mm pin pitch parts and among other things that they do are breaking establist circuit boards (IPC) standards.

Since homebrew do not need to have 99+% yields and if you are willing to sit down and do soldering, there are tricks that let you solder down BGA parts.

Re:It's not really the design

[Anonymous Writer]

I know pad2pad will assemble some of the more commonplace components, but I can't see them running to large-sized chips, and anything up to a QFP100

Yes, but it isn't the size that matters, it's how you use it :P

Re:It's not really the design

[Anonymous Coward]

Since homebrew do not need to have 99+% yields and if you are willing to sit down and do soldering, there are tricks that let you solder down BGA parts.

homebrew usually needs 100% yeilds.

nothing like botching and screwing up a $300.00 BGA chip... I certianly can't buy 10 of them in hopes of getting one to work (10% yeild)

home brew needs 100% sucess rate or it's no-go esp. with these overpriced "high end" chips that always seem to show up as a BGA (no it CAN be a PGA they just like to save board real-estate. if a 3.8ghz processor can have pins then that damned DSP can have pins.)

anyways, can you tell I absolutely hate BGA chips and want to go and beat to hell with a sack of doorknobs the engineer that though of them?

I can make plated through 4 layer boards at home easier than soldering a SMALL BGA chip sucessfully. the best hack I saw was epoxy the damn thing upside down and etch a very thin board with plated through holes in the BGA's pattern vwet the bga chip in a solderpot and then hand solder each hole sticking a copper wire in so that it penetrates the solder ball on the BGA chip. that yeilds about 60% success and about 4 hours to do a very small chip.

It's what kept me from designing custom processor boards here. I base things on SH3 processors or other processors that are available as QFP or PGA.

Re:It's not really the design

[Anonymous Coward]

When i worked as an instrument test tech for Agilent ( formally HP test division) we had several modules that consisted of multiple BGA's. When they worked it was fine , when they didn't it was a nightmare. Even with extensive specialist training and equipment you only had a 30% chance of getting a working repaired board back. We used to dream of getting the designer who decided on BGA packages into a dark ally and kicking seven shades of S**t out of him !

Note to designer - Unless its cheap boards you can scap if they don't work , used " gull wing " packages , at least they can be hand soldered. "J" packs are tricky but still do able.

Re:It's not really the design

[Pad2Pad]

Pad2Pad allows assembly of almost all kinds of thru-hole and surface mount components, as well as many BGA parts. Parts can be supplied either by Pad2Pad or by customer. Simply provide us your design file and BOM (bill of materials) to get the quote and time estimation. Within a few weeks Pad2Pad will allow instant pricing for assembly of all DigiKey parts.

Re:It's not really the design

[Pad2Pad]

You are welcome to order one board with assembly at Pad2Pad, as well as we have excellent prices for production runs with assembly. Pad2Pad allows assembly of almost all kinds of surface mount components, as well as many BGA parts. Parts can be supplied either by Pad2Pad or by customer. Simply provide us your design file and BOM (bill of materials) to get the quote and time estimation. Within a few weeks Pad2Pad will allow instant pricing for assembly of all DigiKey parts.

Re:It's not really the design

[NateTech]

DSP's are rather hard to come by in PDIP. ;-)

Re:It's not really the design

[mistered]

What these online PCB fab shops or machine shops have figured out is it's exactly the time spent correcting "horribly faulty schematics" that takes so much time and money. Their solution is just to avoid doing it. In the PCB case, there might be an automatic check that will reject the board if it can't be manufactured correctly. But you basically get exactly what you asked for.

Re:It's not really the design

[Anonymous Coward]

Board fab plant? Try two trays of solution and and a sink. That is, once you have the negative designed and printed. The hard part is making the negative. The easy part is fabing the board. Straightforward. Simple. You need a board fab plant to solder in the parts too?

booyakasha

[Anonymous Coward]

pwned!

First post!

[Anonymous Coward]

I got the first post., I rule....

L

Dupe

[oddwick11]

Those exact links were posted just a few days ago.

Sorry kids, I ain't footing the bill for you cyber girlie girlie, no matter how many times you ask.

Yes

[Anonymous Coward]

1. frost it
2. post it
3. profit

Really?

[Rexz]

Repost

Re:Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

didn't you get the memo? they aren't reposts or dupes anymore, they are 'reviews'

I wonder

[Neil Blender]

What percentage of sent in schematics won't even work? Will they tell you when your design is garbage?

Re:I wonder

[Rei]

I'd imagine they'll tell you if they can't manufacture it. Now, whether or not it does what you want is a good question... ;)

I'm more interested in the eMachines shop. Pricing is expensive for small runs, but not unreasonable at all for larger runs. Of course, the software is windows-only.... :P

Re:I wonder

[SmlFreshwaterBuffalo]

It doesn't look like they offer testing services. Their software will catch errors such as overlapping traces, etc., though.

There is absolutely no way for them to check your design to make sure it works, however. Unless you sit there and explain every detail to them, in which case they can still only moderately check certain aspects. There are just way too many different things involved in the design process for them to check every design. It would be like handing a company millions of lines of source code and telling them to check if it works, without running it first.

Re:I wonder

[vasqzr]

Why would they?

Does Kinkos proofread your brochures, or ask if your graphic designer is colorblind?

Re:I wonder

[Smidge204]

eMachineShop's little design utility WILL tell you if your part can be manufactured. But if you design it wrong and it doesn't work/fit it's your problem. I'd imagine it's the same policy with the circuit boards.

=Smidge=

Re:I wonder

[stratjakt]

It would be like handing a company millions of lines of source code and telling them to check if it works, without running it first. .. or even knowing what it's supposed to do.

I wonder how accessable these guys are to the hobbyist, like myself. I've acid-etched lots of neat-o circuits, but you can only do so much with such techniques. I've had plenty of ideas/designs that I just couldn't feasibly manufacture.

Also, I've built stuff that may even have a very slight commercial value to myself, but not enough to warrant a multi-million dollar investment - but stuff maybe a handful of other geeks would like. Ie; a USAJAP conversion "module" for a TG16 (not terribly complicated, just reverses the bit order on the data bus) It'd be nice to be able to order a few dozen PCBs, assemble my gizmos, sell em over the web for pocket change.

Re:I wonder

[RiBread]

You hit the nail right on the head. These kinds of services are the Kinkos of electrical/mechanical fabrication.

A full service PCB fab house, like a full service printing shop, looks over your design to make sure it makes sense and nothing will get lost in the tranfer from design to implementation.

Customers are never happy when they spend $5k and what they get back there's a completely bonehead error- even if it is their own fault! From what I see, Kinkos and PCBExpress specialize in orders under $1k.

Re:I wonder

[AirDave]

Their software may be Windows only but you can create the design in another package and export it to a DXF file that they can import.

What they really need to support is STEP (ISO 10303), an open format for CAD model exchange rather than the proprietary DXF format.

Re:I wonder

[SmlFreshwaterBuffalo]

Yeah, acid-etching is great for simple designs, but anything requiring really small traces is out of the question. Double-sided boards and SMDs can be a bit of a trick, too, especially when you do both double-sided and surface mount.

There are tons of great, cheap PCB manufacturers out there, though. This Pad2Pad service is really only good (IMHO) if you have a lot (i.e. hundreds or thousands) of boards being made, and you can get them to assemble the majority of each board.

Olimex is a decent place to order from. 4PCB is also good, even more so if you're a student.

Also, if the board is small, you can possibly panel it to save some money (depends on how many you're making, etc.).

Re:I wonder

[HeyLaughingBoy]

Customers are never happy when they spend $5k and what they get back there's a completely bonehead error

You mean like when we submitted an order for a few hundred bare PCBs to our PCB shop and got them a few days later... and everything was upside down? The outfit I worked for didn't have tools that output Gerber, so we used to send 1:1 films. Some idiot tech managed to put the solder & component side layers upside down on their camera and manually panelize the board (somehow not noticing that the text was backward) and then when we called to complain, asked if we couldn't just put the parts on the underside instead.

And yes, my boss continued to use that place cause they were cheap.
Yes, they did go out of business in short order.
Yes, so did we :-(

Re:I wonder

[Pad2Pad]

Currently Pad2Pad offers free design review of each order. If your design contains elements that can not be manufactured or if its quality can be improved, we will contact you before manufacturing is started. Normally Pad2Pad design engineers adjust the design and provide it to the customer for approval shortly after the order is received. Also you may request E-test of the boards for additional fee.

Re:I wonder

[Pad2Pad]

Pad2Pad offers free automatic panelization of the boards, which is one of the reasons for low prices it offers. So you do not need to think of panelization when designing a PCB. Additionally Pad2Pad gives automatic advice regarding price optimization, e.g. that you may order more boards for the same price.

Re:I wonder

[Pad2Pad]

Many Pad2Pad customers are hobbyists who are interested in small run production or prototypes, which Pad2Pad offers for a highly competitive cost. Non-professional users also appreciate free online, e-mail and phone customer support available from site and from the Pad2Pad application.

Re:I wonder

[Pad2Pad]

Currently Pad2Pad offers free design review of each order. If your design contains elements that can not be manufactured or if its quality can be improved, we will contact you before manufacturing is started. Normally Pad2Pad design engineers adjust the design and provide it to the customer for approval shortly after the order is received. Nevertheless, we will not start fabrication of edited design without customer approval.

When do we get customized Phasser Guns

[drxs3v3n]

This is the best thing I have ever heard
I can't wait to try this out

Re:When do we get customized Phasser Guns

[drxs3v3n]

This was a sarcastic response for all the mind controled windows users out there who thought I a free linux user would think this is anything but another scheme to make wads of money hmm this company isn't sponsered by mirco$ft are they ?

Build your own PC?

[gwernol]

I believe you could build your own robot too. Perhaps we could use these facilities to build our own robot dupe checker for the Slashdot crew?

not what I expected

[kippy]

I was thinking it was going to be something like this:

1. Turn off PC
2. Climb stairs out of basement
3. Go out into sunlight

Re:not what I expected

[Kurt Gray]

Why? What's out there? Wireless access?

Re:not what I expected

[gyrojoe]

4. Sneeze (see the poll)

Re:not what I expected

[JamesTRexx]

It said easy steps. You haven't seen the "stairs" of my basement.

Re:not what I expected

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you mean your parents' basement?

Express PCB

[Computerguy5]

Or, if you're so inclined to design your own printed circuit board (PCB), Express PCB offers a reasonably priced service.

Re:Express PCB

[stratjakt]

Those guys are much cheaper, 3 4-layer boards for 50 bucks vs 70 bucks for a single-layer board from pad2pad.

Re:Express PCB

[Pad2Pad]

You have probably misunderstood the Pad2Pad and ExpressPCB pricing. In Pad2Pad orders for single-layer boards start from as low as $37.7 for 2 boards! For $70 you may order 2 double sided boards with double-sided solder mask and silk screen. These are much lower prices than ExpressPCB offers.

deja

[Anonymous Coward]

vu?

Great News!

[Anonymous Coward]

Man, there have been a number of times that I've been trying to build something, and ended up with the hacked HomeDepot route.

It involves going to said Ultra Store, browse through their crappy selection (3 items, but 200 of each) and then beating the snot out of it back at your house to try and make it do what you want.

I really hope that this technology stays in the hands of people who love to build and tinker, and doesn't just end up the "Next big thing" for some retail chain. I have a feeling it would wipe out the variabilty like it has in everything else they touch.

Re:Great News!

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't this a rip-off or repost of a reply to a similar article about a week ago?

Dupe

[oddwick11]

Those exact links were posted just a few days ago.

Sorry kids, I ain't footing the bill for your cyber girlie girlie, no matter how many times you ask.

http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/16/2030 22 2&tid=137&tid=216

Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[TheRealMindChild]

Ok, I can understand Duplicate posts... I MIGHT even be convinced that it is something that can happen often, BUT someone HAS to say something about the fact that it is CmdrTaco that ALWAYS seems to post the duplicate stories. Someone SOMEWHERE has to address the issue. It is past the point of being funny, to the point where Ill stop paying.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[blinder]

PC Magazine is running an on some entrepreneurial businesses that are taking an interesting approach...

And someone calls these people _Editors_ ???

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[paz5]

I can understand you being upset about dupes, however not only are there a plethera of new stories each day, but you can also go into your preferences and select if you want to see CmdrTaco's posts or not. If he keeps putting up dupes and you can't take it anymore, stop reading his posts. Seems fairly simple...

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[Em Emalb]

looks like you are off-topic. Would you like an autoban?

I'm a subscriber. I agree with what you are saying.

I've paid for page views, not 503 errors.

I don't understand what's up with this crap. Maybe someone at VA will give a crap if we gripe enough.

Yes, if fed up enough, I can go else where. But dang it, they've already got my money. How do I get it back?

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[Jaysyn]

I guess you stopped paying judging by the lack of asterik by your name.

Jaysyn

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you stopped paying judging by the lack of asterik by your name.

You can tick a "no subscriber bonus" box to suppress it.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[ahaning]

You are able to turn off the asterisk if you want.

Come, children! Our -1, Offtopic moderation awaits!

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[daniil]

I once tried switching all the "editors" off. It didn't work. I checked to exclude all the Authors and Sections and whatnot, but (after a lot of experimenting with different section-author combinations -- some didn't work) i *still* ended up with two Jonkatz stories on the front page. So, basically, you're still stuck with dupes if you feel like reading the front page.

Another thing is that even if i did stop reading Taco's stories, i would still be stuck with all those other "editors" who apparently have still not quite grasped the idea of spellchecking.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[SiliconJesus]

I too am a subscriber, but like many of the people in my friends circle (who are also subscribers) basically use the front page to get to the journals and other misc stories.

Yes, there are a lot of us who pine for the days of the slashdot that was (yes, I have a goddamned low UID because I read slashdot when EVERYONE was anonymous).

I've met taco in person, and whereas he is technical and artistic, he's not much of a people person. Slashdot has proven this time and time again.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[Em Emalb]

actually no, I'm still a subscriber. Guess this is another thing that got broken:

You have paid for a total of 4000 pages and so far 2597 have been used up (10 today). Thank you for supporting Slashdot! We appreciate your contribution very much.

(We use Greenwich Mean Time to decide where "today" begins and ends. Your day may vary.)

We give you some control over deciding where to suppress ads. New subscribers default to suppressing ads everywhere except on comments pages. For accounting purposes, we'd appreciate if you had at least one type of ad being suppressed.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[turg]

Maybe someone at VA will give a crap if we gripe enough.

Gripe enough? You're losing it, Em. I thought you were a manager for a large company? You should know that businesses change when it's financially necessary. If there's no financial penalty for the current course of action, why would they change?

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[Em Emalb]

You're right. I don't think it's making it past this sandbox though.

I really would like to know how I can get my money back for "page views" I haven't taken yet.

Wow, we are sooooo off-topic :)

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[gmhowell]

Shut your mouth, take your soma, and click through some fucking ads, you deadbeat. Nobody at VA, and nobody on the /. crew gives a shit about anyone or anything except ad hits. Witness Taco's flippant 'ohwellweeventuallyfigureditout' journal on the recent 503 crap. Why no meta stories on Slashdot? It's not because 'they aren't appropriate', it's because Malda and the rest would be pilloried by the readership.

Because, after all, the readers who aren't posters are 95% of the page hits or some such nonsense. Well, how many of those people would be hitting pages if it weren't for the Funny, Insightful, Interesting, Informative, Troll, Flamebait to be found?

Are the 503's and stupid modbans the only way to combat the GNAA and others? Hardly. But nobody gives a fuck. Nobody.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[daniil]

They're saving tons of money by not taking the time to spellcheck.

I wonder if they could save even more by replacing the editors (well, everyone but Taco) with a Perl script. If anything, it would make things better.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[insanecarbonbasedlif]

If there's no financial penalty for the current course of action, why would they change

I'm thinking about that saying, "The squeaking wheel gets the grease". Maybe if we complain enough, they will slow down on new development and actually fix all the bugs on the current system, and, maybe if we gripe enough, they'll set up a test environment and do things decently and in order.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[buffer-overflowed]

Yea, we're totally off-topic. Like, the topic is out over there across the atlantic and we're sitting here in Cali.

No refunds. You post off-topic in thread... no slashdot for you, come back, 72 hours.

We're next to totally invisible now man. Maybe we should try to HOF this story?

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[blinder]

Why no meta stories on Slashdot?

Yeah, i've always wondered about this... is it because taco and crew are just that terrified? I mean... with all this talk of open source and YRO and on and on and on... why not turn that spotlight around on themselves?

Are they that affraid of what they may learn? That there are legitimate grievances here with users?

Why the fear of an open and transparent exchange of those grievances? Insecurity on the part of Taco and crew? I think so.

Yes moderators... this is way the fuck offtopic. But that doesn't mean these things shouldn't be said... heh, and in the context of this thread... it *is* on topic.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[the_mad_poster]

You do realize, I assume, that none of us will ever see mod points again? Of course... some of use have been banned from mod and metamod for months... so it's not a big deal.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[turg]

I'm thinking about that saying, "The squeaking wheel gets the grease".

Okay. But if you're trying to have an effect on a business, "squeaking" means "having (potential?) financial consequences," not merely complaining.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[mekkab]

Those 503 errors happened BECAUSE someone tried to edit grammar in a story, and slaschode can't handle being written to and read at the same time.

So they fixed the problem by not editing.
Makes sense to me.

And no one calls them editors. I mean, they can call themselves editors all they want... they can also call themselves the Kings of Spanish-Grambula, but that doesn't make it so.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[Em Emalb]

true.

But oh well.

If nothing else, maybe the editors will pause and realize that:

1) banning entire subnets to get rid of problem posters deprives legitimate PAYING customers at the same time. It's a YRO issue that they are ignoring. Do you have the right to get what you pay for? Yes.

2) I seriously think no one here would have a problem if the coders would merely state "Hey, it's time for a code push, we are pretty sure it's solid, but if something breaks, email us." We don't get that. Again, as someone who has paid money for this site, this is WRONG. Imagine if MS or some other website did something like this? Slashdot would be all over it. But if it occurs on their own turf, it's ignored, or flippantly remarked about in the creator's journal. Whatever.

3) Moderation is BROKEN. BADLY.

4) Duplicate stories. I don't expect the slashdot team to catch every article, I don't. But it does get ridiculous some times.

The bottom line is this:

a lot of us PAY for the content here. Granted, you can't have everything, but our voices are NOT EVEN BEING HEARD. We are after thoughts. I can't post what I think to Taco's Journal because I'm not his "friend". If you email him, you often get either ignored completely or treated like you don't matter.

This site started out in his dorm room. It's not a dorm room job anymore. Things are different in the real world. Perhaps they'll learn someday.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[insanecarbonbasedlif]

"squeaking" means "having (potential?) financial consequences,"

We are eating up (Miniscule?) bandwidth and storage space, plus using electricity making the DB do all of these queries. If enough people chipped in, it would become a noticable effect.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[curtisk]

I'm thinking about that saying, "The squeaking wheel gets the grease".

But sometimes the squeaky wheel gets a smack with a ball-peen hammer, which seems to be the case around these parts.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[buffer-overflowed]

Nah, they don't care. There have been people leaving, bitching, moaning, claiming to leave, trolling, etc. etc. for what seems like forever. Not a bit of it has changed one thing.

Quite simply, if you have a problem with Slashdot, you're not going to be able to change it. Deal with it, or leave.

Like the slashdot blackout. Didn't work. There are plenty of people willing to post and besides that most people according to Taco don't even read the comments anyway.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[bethanie]

And some of us have opted out of this fucked up system and unchecked the "willing to moderate" box. It's my way of saying, "I won your silly little karma game, boys. I don't have to play any more."

Hello. I am a subscriber, and as I would say to my 3.5-year-old: These 500 errors are unacceptable. Changes should be tested BEFORE they're activated. Unless you want to be completely amateur about it, that is....

....Bethanie....

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[insanecarbonbasedlif]

gets a smack with a ball-peen hammer,

Is that CmdrTaco's "power"? That explains why he keeps it a secret. Even a framing hammer is more intimidating than a ball-peen. Possible a sledge, if he's into the whole "intimidation by display of strength" thing.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[gmhowell]

I decided I was unwilling to moderate following the post of death, and FK being told he had no life. Mod points are bullshit when an editor can mass mod someone/something, just because he doesn't like what has been said.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[robi2106]

Just came from the JEs...

Did anybody mention the 500/503 errors lately? Well just in case it has been a while.... um there were these 501/503 errors the other day and they... um... were there and then gone.

jason

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[elmegil]

I thought it was the squeaking weasel. But hey, who am I?

I'm pretty damn sick of these 503 errors though. At this rate, any chance they may have one day had that I'd ever become a subscriber (since I'm a regular "contributor to content" here, I do feel some obligation sometimes) will evaporate in about, oh, 30 more seconds.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[Talinom]

You were right. The sqeaky weasel gets greased.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[the_mad_poster]

I checked off "unwilling" some time ago as well, but I was banned from M and M2 before that (no idea why..).

Not only is this offtopic, it is also redundant. However, since we're airing grievances, maybe it will help bash the point into their heads that we're more concerned about site usability and a fair stance on moderation and posting than on some stupid war between the little pissants in the gnaa and /.'s crew.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[the_mad_poster]

I checked off "unwilling" some time ago as well, but I was banned from M and M2 before that (no idea why..).

Not only is this offtopic, it is also redundant. However, since we're airing grievances, maybe it will help bash the point into their heads that we're more concerned about site usability and a fair stance on moderation and posting than on some stupid war between the little pissants in the gnaa and /.'s crew.

Oh, and... lest we forget:

This exact comment has already been posted. Try to be more original...

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[the_mad_poster]

Blackhole ads.osdn.com in your hosts file. When I'm banned from posting for no reason that I can find, I point the ads server to 127.0.0.1 . Then, when I post via proxy, I see the ad that pops up when I post, switch the proxy off, and I no longer see ads. When I notice the ban is lifted, I comment out the blackhole line in my hosts file and I see ads again (until the block comes back on..).

That way, they get an ad view when I circumvent the block, but while I'm blocked for no reason, they get nothing.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[gmhowell]

IIRC, it's because Taco views meta-stories as 'arrogant'.

Ummm... Yeah. That would be his *first* sign of arrogance.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[bethanie]

I thought that a thorough greasing was what made the weasel squeak in the first place.

Oh, no... dammit. That's what makes the weasel SPIT.

I really gotta get those straightened out in my head.

....Bethanie....

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[RLiegh]

"Other day" my ass, they were just yesterday.

If paying customers are this pissed off, maybe people should consider sending an email to someone (dunno who) at VA, cc'ed to jamie, timothy and whatever other semi-reasonable editors that their may or may not be?

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[RLiegh]

And someone calls these people _Editors_ ???

Yep; edit thread A down to -2; edit user B from "excellent" to "terrible" karma...etc, etc.

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[shadowbearer]

3) Moderation is BROKEN. BADLY.

Yup, I'll agree there.

From what I've seen, it seems to me that the moderator pool is becoming a bit too shallow. Maybe a total reset is in order. I don't know.

SB

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[sql*kitten]

have a goddamned low UID because I read slashdot when EVERYONE was anonymous

Damn right!

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[the_mad_poster]

Heh heh.. welcome back to the fold...

Re:Mod me as flamebait if you need...

[nomel]

I don't see why they couldn't implement some type of dupe checker. Something that compared the text and links, then showed the results that the editors could check. Very simple.

I hope

[doombob]

I hope that eMachinesShop works better than most eMachines or else they're in for a tough time.

Re:I hope

[Anonymous Coward]

That would make it the Gateway to something big?

Killotron 5000

[blueZhift]

Kewl! Now I can get the components made for that Killotron 5000 I've been working on!

Seriously, I think fab services like this could be a great boon, but how do you keep some group with nefarious intent from getting WMD components fabbed this way. If the pieces were submitted by multiple customers, it would be difficult to see that someone was trying to build something destructive.

Re:Killotron 5000

[bjcubsfan]

If they have the resources to design or steal the plans for WMD then we are in trouble even without these type of fabrication operations. They would surely find some other way to make the parts.

Re:Killotron 5000

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they don't build highly advanced, expensive things. They build cheap little things with widely available parts. It is more like they are Sears, where they come and set up the swing set you just bought. You can already order all the parts for it, they just make it a little bit easier (and much more expensive...)

Re:Killotron 5000

[0x537461746943]

All soldering irons should be banned too because they could be used as an alternative to this service! Something must be done!

Re:Killotron 5000

[AuMatar]

Did you know that your local grocery store carries everything you need to make WMDs? Its absolutley true! Chlorine bleach and ammonia, they mix into an extremely poisonous gas. You then need a way to store it (I suggest a complex gaseous storage device called a baloon). All 3 of these things are available at any grocery store. We need to ban these dens of sin! For the sake of the children, won't someone please think about the children!

Welcome to life. If someone wants to kill multiple people, they don't need a giant bomb- a sledgehammer works just as well. You can't live your life in fear and paranoia of it, down that road lies insanity.

Re:Killotron 5000

[Kurt Gray]

Something tells me eMachineShop doesn't have the level of precision nor the materials to order up pure weapons grade aluminum tubes and a precisley machined parts of plutonium. My guess is actual terrorists would prefer to buy a finished nuke ready to fire or slap together a poor mans dirty bomb.

Re:Killotron 5000

[wfberg]

Did you know that your local grocery store carries everything you need to make WMDs? Its absolutley true! Chlorine bleach and ammonia, they mix into an extremely poisonous gas.

Cool, I guess I'm not the only one who takes those "do not mix" symbols on the packaging of household cleaning products as hints, rather than warnings.

Re:Killotron 5000

[NateTech]

(Sarcasm...)

Hey there are these people that make these things called GUNS... how do you keep anyone from buying them and using them for bad purposes?

Oh I also heard there's these people that fabricate computers -- how do you keep script kiddies from buying them?

(Sarcasm off...)

Hello? McFly? Anyone in there?

Anyone can buy anything that could be used to kill someone else... commonplace things do kill.

And no idiot building a WMD is going to send it off to a board house. Not in a single design anyway. (They could certainly make multiple *different* circuit boards at different board houses and assemble them all themselves.)

Wake up.

This is what I do

[johndou1]

I am in the prototyping industry and there is some amazing stuff coming.

Shameless plug
www.protocallonline.com

Re:This is what I do

[NateTech]

Questions from the above website:

* How much time do you spend tracking down and qualifying prototyping suppliers?

None after building up a list of two or three that I trust to not only create my boards, but also to keep my projects to themselves. (Hint: Don't use board houses overseas, they know you will have a very hard time suing them for stealing your Intellectual Property and you'll find a copy of your product on the street the week after you release it.)

* How much time do you spend baby-sitting your prototyping projects?

None. After going through the first step with a few shops you learn who not to use to avoid this.

* How much time do you spend finding sources for unfamiliar processes?

None. No one I know builds anything with processes they haven't investigated fully themselves because they can't estimate price accurately or even decide if their product will break-even without doing their homework.

* Wouldn't it be great if someone could give that time back to you?

See above. I think the only clientel you're going to get are really lazy engineers who didn't do their jobs right. Definitely ask for money up-front on your services, because their ability to cost-estimate their jobs simply isn't there if they're using your service. They'll be the people who "have a dream" but aren't willing to do the real work of creating the product - thus, the continually broke backyard engineers or the really poorly managed small development groups with no clue how to manufacture anything and still make a profit.

Good luck with the project, but I think there's some other major holes with the idea.

Example: Sometimes you use a shop that can not only prototype but can also commit to building the finished product in the quantity you need. Only experience with the shop will tell you if they really can or not, but once you find a few that can, you stick with them and get a few quotes from your usual sources -- to keep from getting burned when your customer needs the product quickly.

Dupe

[Kallahar]

For more information from last week's post on this exact same subject, check Slashdot!

Finally!

[NinjaFodder]

Finally a cup holder that works!

Cheaper more flexible way to build electronics

[Andrew Sterian]

Pad2Pad might be nice for rank beginners but as others have commented, you quickly hit the wall with their limited parts list.

With freeware programs like Eagle available and really cheap circuit board manufacturing options, there's no reason to get locked into a service like Pad2Pad.

Check out my Digital Design & Construction Wiki for lots of resources on do-it-yourself electronics design.

Re:Cheaper more flexible way to build electronics

[brufleth]

I agree. Most sites will accept different file formats. I've worked with Cadence/Orcad going from capture to Layout to output files. It was a tough learning curve but now I can create board designs in minutes. Of course The software isn't cheap.

Re:Cheaper more flexible way to build electronics

[Kentamanos]

Sweet wiki you have there, thanks.

Re:Cheaper more flexible way to build electronics

[Rorschach1]

For really, really cheap small boards check out Olimex. Shipping from Bulgaria takes awhile, but they do panelization and depanelization for free. I did a one-off design that cost me $40 total, including shipping, and gave me 20 boards (about 1.5" by .5"). I've ordered small production runs (~160 pieces) for about half that per-panel rate.

Re:Cheaper more flexible way to build electronics

[Pad2Pad]

Pad2Pad users are not limited to the parts list available in the application. Currently you may order parts by specifying DigiKey IDs and sending a custom BOM file with your order. Within a few weeks this will be also possible from the Pad2Pad application, including online pricing of both components and assembly. The built-in library of parts is also extended continuously by analyzing the stats gathered from users' orders and requests.

Based on my exact specifications? Really?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Apparently, you can send in schematics for circuit boards to Pad2Pad, where they will quote, build and ship you a part based on your exact specifications.

Wow! And here I was sending out board designs for computer controlled lighting systems and getting back automatic espresso machine boards. No wonder they don't fit the slots and plugs in our cases.

Re:Based on my exact specifications? Really?

[dbc]

No.. Really.... all you have to do is specify the hole sizes +/- 0.00000000001 after plating. They are dead-on every time. I swear.

Mod chips?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this mean i can theoretically have a mod chip built? curious what other implications could be considered such as building copycats of other stuff. what is the legallity of this?

Re:Mod chips?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why is this mod'd interesting? That'd be a pretty damn big mod "chip" since it's on a PCB.

Make your own circuit board

[diagnosis]

At work, we use www.protoexpress.com. They're similar to pad2pad for what we use them for, 'no-touch' custom circuits. No-touch means they don't do any verification of the board, and is what lets you get your own board quickly and inexpensively. We've had them do some pretty complex stuff without any problems. Their turn-around times are also very good (generally less than one week), and they are affordable and don't have any problems with small runs -- we often do only 2 prints of a new design.

Of course, a significant portion of the time involved in this is in populating the board. Soldering 2,000 points is never any fun.
----------------------
Freedom or Evil: Freevil.net
G. W. Bush says, "You decide!"

Anyone know a good electronics book? And Dvorak.

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Does anyone know a good book to start with for learning electronics with hands on projects? I had a class in college but it seems like eons ago,

2. Why does slashdot refuse to link other PCMag authors such as Dvorak when he writes interesting stories? He just wrote a piece about bias against linux, I figured slashdot would be all over that, and then one on microsoft shutting down after which microsoft announced their stock buyback plan.

This is great!!

[Igottapoop]

I wish someone would have told us about this sooner... http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/16/203022 2&tid=137&tid=216 oh...

cool!

[WormholeFiend]

Now I get to have my very own Kelly LeBrock!

Now all I need is a bra to wear on my head.

Re:cool!

[mekkab]

"Why are we wearing bras on our heads?"

"Its ceremonial."

eMachine some off-catalog parts

[grunt107]

Dealing with antique vehicles, there have been several times where a broken part was no longer available (or more the value of the vehicle if very rare), so many of these repairs were bastardized parts from other things, a quick weld job, or duct-tape. There are some shops that will attempt to make the part, but they rarely had CAD programs. Now, measure and/or scan the part in, develop the CAD blueprints and voila, new part!!

It is cheaper for you to create the CAD specs and hand them off, and eMachine uses their CMC machines to cut the parts straight from the CAD specs - so it is almost 100% material expense for them (just some spec imports, press play, and inspect after completion).

There could be some issues around patent infringements for existing parts, and I did not read their entire site but there could be some issues around patent ownership of the new part (if a new design).

Overall I day this is a pretty good thing for hobbyists and small-time prototypers. No added expenses for the parts machines.

Re:eMachine some off-catalog parts

[mqx]

"There could be some issues around patent infringements for existing parts, and I did not read their entire site but there could be some issues around patent ownership of the new part (if a new design)."

Not for older cars of course - patents would only last for 20 years (max) from filing/disclosure. There are also exceptions for "repair" and "private use" circumstances - these vary depending upon country you're in.

Re:eMachine some off-catalog parts

[JaxGator75]

My father worked for the main competition to Imax (called Megasystems, but you've never heard of them in the US and you won't because they recently folded... but I digress) and they had the machines in their workshop to do this themselves.

He would machine custom parts for his motorcycle and then powder coat them in the next room. Before they closed the doors, he sand blasted then powder coated dozens of bolts and nuts and various parts for his bike. It would have cost a FORTUNE to do all that without the benefit of his employer.

Errr... ex-employer. Anybody need a salty old CAD tech in St. Augustine, FL???

Re:eMachine some off-catalog parts

[grunt107]

The private use definitely helps. I have 3 EH motorcycles and accessories like windshield mounts, luggage racks, and driving light mounts are already gone. The original vendor lost so much money they destroyed their leftovers, sold the scrap, and will not sell the dies/machines for a reasonable $ amt.

Re:eMachine some off-catalog parts

[Smidge204]

If the part is old enough that you can't get them anymore, then I'm thinking patent protection may not be an issue!

That is a teriffic idea, though. Maybe I can get some replacement parts for my Rambler. I had already started experimenting with casting my own glass lenses to replace my broken/half missing tailights, now I might be able to get some of the more complicated parts like the plastic dodad that locks the gearshift in place until you pull it forward.

Mmm. Possibilities...
=Smidge=

Re:eMachine some off-catalog parts

[Kaboom13]

It is not nearly as easy as you make it sound. CNC machines capable of creating complicated 3D parts are very expensive to run (A wire cutter machine I once worked on cost something around $400 per hour to run, and making the part took 12 hours). There is the initial cost of the machine, maintenance, consumables (lubricant, bits, etc.), plus an operator to set up each job. A job will only be as precise as the operator sets the offsets and secures the peice. Compared to the costs of running the machines, aluminum is dirt cheap. As far as patent issues goes, that is the designers problem.

Re:eMachine some off-catalog parts

[notthepainter]

I needed a steering gear for my 1954 Ford Customline. I took the old one out, took it to a machine shop, and they built a new one from a solid piece of metal. How did they do this? I have no idea, they can shape metal and I can work computers. It cost about $50 but sadly took about 3 months.

Re:eMachine some off-catalog parts

[torpor]

Never mind parts: Look for black-market complete design ripoff.dxf files ... with this sort of thing becoming 'easier for the public', wonder what it'll do to force 'other' manufacturing to raise their standards?

With "Home-Industial-Strength-Manufacturing" style setups, will we see the end of certain mass-market consumer items, and instead see more 'soft products' where the one-off design.dxf file is what you're buying, not the actual product?

If I could grow my own Walkman in a vat, I would. 'cept it'd be called something else instead, of course, and bear my own personal seal, not SONY's, heh heh ...

Based on my experience...

[BrK]

I've used ExpressPCB for a lot of mini projects in the past. The rates are pretty good if you know how to maximize your layout properly, and you can get multiple boards out of 1 panel (ie: 5 silkscreened/soldermasked panels of 21sqin/ea are about $250, ($50/ea). But, if you can get 5 boards out of 1 panel (and you need 25 boards, give or take) then your per-board price is effectively $10/ea, which is reasonable for a small, custom job). The quality of the ExpressPCB boards has always been excellent.

I converted one of my projects to pad2pad just last night. Their component selection is horribly small right now (no .1uF caps?? WTF??), but the prices for boards with a few components soldered on is pretty reasonable (again, if you are ordering in a manner that spreads your cost over 25 or 30+ boards).

FrontPanelExpress is another good option for custom metal panels.

I had proposed a similar business model...

[Anonymous Coward]

...back in community college but it didn't work out. Turns out customers didn't accept our custom-wired Radio Shack 150-in-1 electronics kits. I guess we were just too far ahead of our time for market acceptance.

Re:I had proposed a similar business model...

[Kentamanos]

FWIW, I laughed.

Re:I had proposed a similar business model...

[Gigahertz]

Hahahaha... cmon, that's funny!! mod it up!

This is a great service i was unaware of before the previous (now duplicated) story ;) If I had a clue about pcb design, id certainly use one of these options that have been brought up... but talk about niche markets.... this ones pretty small..

MOD PARENT DOWN: TROLL

[Anonymous Coward]

CmdrTaco has things far better to do than ensure that his posts are of adequate quality, such as jerking off to pictures of RMS.

Damn

[hellfire]

I thought this was an article about the new wave in pr0n. I'm so disappointed now.

Re:Damn

[Anonymous Coward]

:D

eMachineShop style business

[mindaktiviti]

It's very interesting to see a website like eMachineShop (I've known about it for a little while already). A lot of actual machine shops that use CNC machinery are run by 40+ y/o gentlemen who are sort of "stuck in the past" (no offence to anyone) with regards to their equipment.

So when you have websites such as eMachineShop you're providing competition to these guys who have no web presence and no facility to even take such orders.

*plug*
On another note, I'm working on something similar but in a slightly different manner. Machine shops themselves would send in a CAD file, and then we would quote them on a cycle time based on our machinery that they could purchase (since I work for a CNC Machine Distributor, who is also ironically suffering from a DOS attack).
*/plug*

:P

Re:eMachineShop style business

[rjstanford]

On another note, I'm working on something similar but in a slightly different manner. Machine shops themselves would send in a CAD file, and then we would quote them on a cycle time based on our machinery that they could purchase (since I work for a CNC Machine Distributor, who is also ironically suffering from a DOS attack).

So... they're already suffering a DOS, and you link to them from slashdot? That's just mean...

Re:eMachineShop style business

[mindaktiviti]

It's okay, we get so few hits that it would make up for it for all those other months. Plus I barely even have any images on there (still a work in progress unfortunately).

Re:eMachineShop style business

[Anonymous Coward]

Stuck in the past? You mean like sending people to the Moon? Oh yeah, gimme the present anyday, with the MP3 players and the ... whatevers!
Maybe the 40 y/o 'oldster' knows exactly what the hell he is doing and will give you the benefit of his experience!
But you're better off with some kid fresh out of university (with the 33% cheating rate) with a big mouth and no knowledge! (Except on how to use a calculator!)

Re:eMachineShop style business

[FLOOBYDUST]

Slow news day on Slashdot..... I have been electronically submitting my PCB designs , designed on a computer ( gasp) , to my exact specifications for 15 years (double gasp!!!)!!!!! I can get quotes within 10 seconds of telling the board house the dimensions and # of layers....(Fantastic!!!!!!) NOw that it hits PC World we are to sit up and take notice???? What happens now is someone will spend the $250 for a PC layout when they could have easily or cheaply used good old fashione perf board...... But the best comment is this..... " A lot of actual machine shops that use CNC machinery are run by 40+ y/o gentlemen who are sort of "stuck in the past" (no offence to anyone) with regards to their equipment. So when you have websites such as eMachineShop you're providing competition to these guys who have no web presence and no facility to even take such orders "" Duhhhhhh you don't have to be over 40 to have your head stuck up your @#$%@. Coming out of the worst HI TEch depression in anyones memory any machine shop of PC house that doesn't react instantly to request is no longer in business..... 1) If you are in the machine shop business and 2) you don't use CNC equipment 3) Line number one is no longer operational..... FYI Most real companies use 3D design tools (Pro E). Our mechanical gurus design the part, send the file to the local shop and they use PRO-Model to create the tooling and mold for the part..and this is OLD technology. Just new , reported on Slashdot . (hint read Machine design) It is amazing what the 40+ crowd can do with PC's Just ask Steve JObs...... Please stick with good articles... The quality is dropping...... Even JonKatz was better than this.... Mod me up this isn't flamebait it's reality...

Re:eMachineShop style business

[Anonymous Coward]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: PARAGRAPHS

Complete Instructions...

[killproc]

1. Scan some pictures of your favorite model (preferably a young Kelly LeBrock) into your home PC.
2. Place bra upon head.
3. Wait for power surge.
4. XXX

You have to start slowly.

[oneiros27]

Do it at night, when there's no sunlight --it makes the transition much easier.

And when you hear birds chirping, find cover -- it's a sign that the sun's going to come back up.

OK, so T-Shirts aren't electronics....

[bigtoy]

...but this site also empowers the user. I go to a twice a year german board game convention. I am not very good at the games I play so I decided I needed a T-Shirt to help folks figure out ahead of time that I am the "weak" player.

I was looking for a place to make the T-Shirt when I came across http://www.zazzle.com/. What a great site!

If you want you can see the shirt I made.

BTW, I do not work for, nor am I affiliated with Zazzle.com (other than the T-shirt I made).

Re:OK, so T-Shirts aren't electronics....

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow! That's amazing!

Just like Cafepress, only without any control over your prices! Where do I sign up?!

4pcb.com

[brufleth]

I had to make several PCBs for a senior design project and I used 4pbc.com which was quick and cheap. They do special student rates and their regular prices are low too. Of course cost goes up exponentiall to the number of layers you want.

Dup

[Anonymous Coward]

Dup : http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/16/203022 2&tid=137&tid=216

Cmdr Taco, you utter fuckwit!

[Gordonjcp]

"RECEIVE", not recieve...

Are you stupid, illiterate, or simply off your tits on drugs?

I'll finally be able to finish my ...

[burgburgburg]

oscillation overthruster and get off this rock full of monkeyboys.

Home... home is where you wear your hat... I feel so breakup, I wanna go home. Barney, I'm going home... with my overthruster. History is-a made at night. Character is what you are in the dark.

Re:I'll finally be able to finish my ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I know who you are, Hanoi Xan!

Watch out!

[fiannaFailMan]

here is also reference to eMachineShop, for those of you more mechanically inclined, for building some home projects.

Just send in a request for some aluminium tubes and wait for the feds to come knocking at your door!

This is exactly what I've wanted for a long time,

[gillbates]

but unfortunately a little too expensive for my taste right now. Yes, I could design my own motherboard, but I'd pay more for the proto-fab than I would had just went out and bought one retail.

Price aside, this is an electronics hobbyist's dream. After the 80's, it became increasingly more difficult for the electronics enthusiast to build hardware of moderate complexity - soldering SMT components to a board is _NOT_ feasible for the average hobbyist. And I won't miss messing around with touching up broken traces and etchant (permanent marker isn't as necessarily permanent when etchant is involved...)

The day I can get a 20cm by 20cm prefabbed for about $10, I'll be sold. With all the threats of DRM this and Secure Hardware(TM) that, it won't be long before one might have to build their own PC if they still want to listen to MP3's....

This one's a dupe.

[King Louie]

I have this strange feeling of deja vu... (check http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/07/16/203022 2&tid=137&tid=216 for the previous mention of this tech and these same two sites).

3 easy steps

[Anonymous Coward]

From your PC to reality in 3 easy steps :

1. Install Microsoft Windows(R) Me.
2. ???
3. destroy your computer

Filener Laser!

[jjeffers]

Filener Laser also provides a great service. They will laser cut plastics and most non-metal materials, and will mark metals. I've sent them drawings in the past and gotten parts back in a matter of a few days. You can see a laser cut acrylic bezel on one of my products.

Not a representative of the company, just a really satisified customer.

You forgot two steps

[Anonymous Coward]

4. ??? 5. Profit! (somebody had to say it)

Repost. More comments here...

[Anonymous Coward]

Build Your Robot Online

Slashdot's new direction statement:

[Thud457]

Pete and rePete were sitting on a fence.

Pete jumped of.

Who was left?

Great...You're going to slashdot emachineshop...

[genixia]

Just when I need to order a couple of parts for my small business.

It's either going to take them a week to get their website back up, or lead times are going to increase by months as everyone orders their own unique casemods.

emachineshop in UK

[pubjames]

Anyone know of anything like emachineshop in the UK or mainland Europe?

Re:emachineshop in UK

[SpyPlane]

No, but they deliver internationally. I assume you are asking because the shipping is so expensive though. Sorry.

No, these tools don't do that.

[Animats]

No. Their tools will tell you if it can be assembled, not whether it will work. Pad2Pad doesn't have a logic simulator, an analog simulator, a useful parts library, or autorouting, let alone the more advanced tools.

There are good electronic design automation tools today that will tell you if your design will work. They have simulators; try before you build. That full toolset is about $10,000. If you're designing anything serious, it's worth it.

There are free tools, like Berkeley Spice, but it's a decade out of date. Free software hasn't kept up in this area.

Re:No, these tools don't do that.

[frank_adrian314159]

Free software hasn't kept up in this area.

As a former employee of one of the big three in CAE (Mentor Graphics) and as someone who keeps in touch with people in the industry at companies such as Synopsys, Cadence, and (yes) OrCad, I can testify that building this type of tool requires a large amount of specialized knowledge, effort, and testing to bring to life. And, when the tool works, the job has just begun as you need models, both device and process, to feed them. It is a testament to the dedication of a few very motivated people that projects like Open Cores (which seems to have been down for the past few days), GHDL, and others are made available to the public.

Given the size of today's designs, the days of putting together a four-state logic simulator in a couple weeks of work is long over. Given the technical depth needed to do this work today, it's not a surprise that this is a niche market where open source isn't doing very well.

Re:No, these tools don't do that.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://ltspice.linear.com/software/swcadiii.exe

Re:No, these tools don't do that.

[Pad2Pad]

Multiple advanced tools, such as automatic routing, schematic editor, advanced component manager, etc. are planned for implementation in future versions of Pad2Pad.

Recap from the previous slashdot story

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's summarize the conclusions from the last time this story was posted:

• emachineshop is too expensive.
• There are better places than Pad2Pad, which don't lock you into their proprietary software.

Now I can build that love slave I've always wanted

[Anonymous Coward]

...wait, did I say that out loud? I meant overclocked LAN server, yeah, that's the ticket.

I'm wondering...

[Unnngh!]

...how this is different than anything else. Sure, they have their custom layout software, but there are lots of PCB layout packages on the market. Otherwise, you are still faced with:

• high cost of small-volume orders
• finding and purchasing components in resonable volumes
• testing the boards to verify that the mfg process holds up to your needs (maybe not a problem for amateurs but small traces can be a problem)

So, aside from their software, did I just miss the point?

Re:I'm wondering...

[Beardo the Bearded]

I thought the same thing: ... and?

We're getting packet echo in here...

[Christopher Thomas]

Obligatory link to the previous slashdot post about the same article, five days ago.

Re:We're getting packet echo in here...

[nsample]

This wouldn't happen if Slashdot editors read Slashdot!

Wow?

[bsd4me]

Wow? There are bunch of contract manufacturers that do rapid turnaround. Browse through and of the trade rags, and you will find some. I also don't see the point of the ``special'' software. File formats for netlists and layout are standard, and just about all of the CAD tools can generate files in just about all of the formats.

What's the big deal??

[affa]

I don't know, but this story may be a plug by Mr Taco for the businesses mentioned....

For those who are electronically inclined, i.e. those who know enough to design circuit boards, this is old news. There are zillions of places that does small production runs and all they need is your PCB file and credit card number. For fabrication, this is nothing new, not every engineer (even professional practices) have CNC machineries on standby. They rely on machine shops, what is new here, is their web presence and the fact that you guys have just figured out that these businesses exist.

As for testing, its the responsibility of the designer. Sometimes you shops that offers pad testing but thats mega-expensive especially when you are on a small run and need to do a proof of concept cheaply. So from time to time you get a dud board, its frustrating but that's life.
.

All of this has been true for a long time...

[drinkypoo]

Except you used to have to call someone on the phone to talk about specifications and to get pricing. Regardless you have long been able to send out a file and get back a part based on it. CAD/CAM has been making this possible for complex parts for a long time, and most companies which make PC boards will accept a HPGL plot out of orcad or what have you for your PC board.

Oh uhh yeah

[p4ul13]

Given a title like "From Your PC to Reality in 3 Easy Steps", I really thought this was going to be a thread on how to end an MMOG addiction.

Off to RTFA...

Cosmac Elf community drools

[lacrymology.com]

There is a large Cosmac Elf Community that would die for this... although most of the fun is finding the original parts and building the computer yourself.
-m

Free Business Advertising

[moby]

Wow, Micro Logic sure did get a good deal on /.
Two websites advertised twice within a week.
Can I advertise my business free too or do you have to know someone at /.

Stereolithograhy, too.

[Dr. Mu]

For quick-turn plastic models from my 3D CAD drawings, I've used XPress3D. They broker the services of numerous prototyping houses, and their website is drop-dead simple to use. Just upload your file, and almost instantly you will see a rotating animation of your creation and quotes from several of their suppliers. Select the prototyping method and supplier you want to use, enter your credit card info, and in a couple days you have your prototype. It's the slickest, most well-thought-out web service I've seen in a long time.

Re: Build your own dupe!

[SirASCII]

This is nothing new... Hell you can even build your own dupe on Slashdot!

That's right Taco, you big poof

[Gordonjcp]

Mod me down for deriding you for *not doing what you're supposed to do*. Cretin.

Re: Dvorak

[mrchaotica]

by the way, I think that article about bias against linux he was talking about is this one.

I can be my own OCC

[HomeGroove]

Sweet. With eMachineShop now I can build my own custom parts for my dream chopper just like Vinnie does with the Waterjet thing on American Chopper. Darn. I forgot. I'm an idiot around automotives.

Re:This is exactly what I've wanted for a long tim

[Anonymous Coward]

Hardware hacking is kind of dead. The way to go now is to buy an FPGA on a PCI card and design the logic that you want in Verilog or VHDL and download it onto the card. You can breadboard 50K-500K gates on a reuseable card for $300 or so. Its a lot faster than soldering. Google for words: rapid prototyping pci

Surface Mount Chips

[stecoop]

I read the article and it talked about not soldering exotic chips leaving you to do the surface mount soldering. I have some super tiny chips, being an amateur, the serious question is:

How do you Solder Surface Mount Chips?

Re:Surface Mount Chips

[DoubleD]

With a toaster oven of course.

--

Re:Surface Mount Chips

[Beardo the Bearded]

You can do it a few ways:

The ideal way is to use a surface-mount solder and a surfcaae-mount soldering heat gun. It's really quite an easy process this way, but in can be expensive. You're looking at a few thousand dollars for the right equipment. This gives a really good, high-reliability soldering job. (You acutally run the solder across the pins, and when it melts, the solder will bead onto the pins and stay there.)

Another way is to use regular solder, a fine-tipped regular soldering iron, and a microscope. You have to have pretty steady hands, but this will work just fine. (This is what we use at work.) You'll have to use flux or it just won't work very well at all.

If you're running thousands of boards, you get a robot to wave-solder the chips on.

Re:Surface Mount Chips

[Anonymous Coward]

Two words:

very carefully.

We're all off-topic

[buffer-overflowed]

But hey. It takes 3 downmods within 24 hours to autban you for 72 hours IIRC.

Here is happy fun clicky link to original post griping about the dupes and the 500/503 errors.

Re:We're all off-topic

[ncc74656]

But hey. It takes 3 downmods within 24 hours to autoban you for 72 hours IIRC.

If that were true, a modbomber could get you banned. I've been modbombed several times (fscking cowards), but I've never been banned.

Re:We're all off-topic

[buffer-overflowed]

I think it's changed recently. TMP and FK have both reported being banned after only 3 downmods within 24 hours.

Re:We're all off-topic

[Anonymous Coward]

maybe the downmods need to be issued by 3 independent moderators.

Motivation?

[Anonymous Coward]

I refuse to participate in any three-step process unless the second step is "??????" and the third step is "Profit!"

Try Advanced Circuits

[teslakid]

If you're a student, try Advanced Circuits next time you need a board fabbed. They do small runs (can order 1 or 2 boards - don't need to order in the 10's or 100's) at reasonable prices. Their boards are high quality - you don't just get copper on fr4, you also get a solder mask and silkscreen. Give them a try.

Re:Try Advanced Circuits

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately their prices are still too high for me. I buy DIP packages when I can, and through-hole components. I usually end up taking SMD chips and bending every other pin up, and soldering thin gauge wire to them, on a RadioShack perfboard.

Of course, this is only economical if your available time far exceeds your available money.

3 steps: turn screen off, get out, what's the 3rd?

[tota]

oh yeah, get a (girl|boy)friend.

mechanical prototype alternatives

[i621148]

i looked at the emachineshop and their software looks to be
just for simple protrusions of dxfs
i have used this company listed below in the past with very successfull results
you can design a cast part in whatever software
you are proficient in and then e-mail them an
exported stl file for quote. They will also
machine it to a blueprint and send the whole
thing to you in about 1 1/2 weeks...
ati
the only problem is the process can only print out tool steel and not aluminum yet.
but i am still hoping...
but you can always just get a part machined out
of aluminum block from a solid model

Re:mechanical prototype alternatives

[i621148]

here is a link to information about the laser form material
laserform

PCB Prototypes

[Dr. Mu]

My all-time favorite quick-turn PCB prototyping house is AP Circuits in Calgary. Their P1 service is very inexpensive and fast (2-day turn with overnight shipping). You don't get soldermask or silkscreen with that, but for proof-of-concept -- even with surface mount parts -- you don't need it. What really sets them apart from other proto houses is their realistic policy regarding multiple designs or multiple boards on one panel (hint: they don't have one). They understand that what they're selling is a commodity service, i.e. drilling and etching -- not circuit boards. Try combining multiple boards or multiple designs in a single job at most other proto houses, and their Panelization Police will smack you down for it, and force you to pay extra.

proprietary file formats will get you in the end

[getnuked]

I really can't stand companies who create their own PCB/CAD software that produces proprietary file formats, not to mention the fact that this software usually is only available for windows (no Linux or Mac ports).

I prefer to fire up Eagle's Cadsoft (under Linux!) and generate my own gerber and excellon files. I can then send these files to ANY board house I choose.

When creating 2 layer boards and when I don't need super fine spacing I use Olimex (the lowest cost 2 layer with silk screen and solder mask pcb house I have EVER seen!). When I need 4 more or layers I go with the more expensive PCB Express.

Although I think emachine shop sounds great, you can get much cheaper smaller runs of aluminum panels from Front Panel Express. Their prices are very low and their quality is amazing!

- Rod

Where loved ones are remembered: Memoriam.org

Expensive

[SirCrashALot]

Pad2Pad is relatively expensive as board fabs go. barebonespcb.com is much cheaper. It's really cool to have a real fabricated board though. Much better than breadboarding, and if you plan on keeping the circuit can be cheaper as breadboard run >$20.

Isn't this just another example of...

[TreadOnUS]

the next new economic model? Customized mass production is supposed to move us beyond just cranking out the same thing for everyone. Nike has its customized shoe option where you can design your shoes on line and have them within a months.

Re:Anyone know a good electronics book? And Dvorak

[falzer]

> 1. Does anyone know a good book to start with for learning electronics with hands on projects? I had a class in college but it seems like eons ago,

If you don't mind reading online literature, check out epanorama's links for the basics. It's no book, but it's a place to get started. Google around for beginner's electronic projects. Check out discovercircuits also.

4pcb.com

[rsw]

Shameless plug here for Advanced Circuits. These guys are awesome, they have a student deal ($33 per board in single quantity), and they do good work.

http://www.4pcb.com/

Already posted

[Annirak]

This story has already been posted here

eMachineShop is being grossly underrated!

[LesPaul75]

Here, and in the comments following the original post about eMachineShop (5 days ago), everyone is talking about Pad2Pad and hardly even mentioning eMachineShop. And the truth is that eMachineShop marks a huge, huge milestone in our history. Ok, that's just my opinion, but think about it for a second. You can draw up a three dimensional object, click a few buttons, and have that object delivered to your doorstep within two weeks! I know what the cynics are saying... "You could already do that" and "It's too expensive" and "You can't build ridiculously complex shapes" and whatever else... but forget about all that obligatory naysayer BS for a moment.

You can download their software, for free. You draw up your part, and immediately get a price quote. Then you modify your design, experiment with different materials and different machines, and get as many price quotes as you like, until you find the one that you can afford. Then you click the "buy" button and you get the part delivered right to your doorstep.

Yes, of course there's no really new technology involved here, but there really is genius in this business model. This idea has put more power in my hands (the average home PC user) than anything I've seen in a long time. What were my options before? Buy a CNC machine and rent space in a warehouse? Draw my design in a CAD app and then send it to a B&M machine shop a dozen times until it finally meets their design rules, only to find out that it's too expensive?

And, finally, and most importantly, just think for a minute about what this could mean in the very near future. What if this idea catches on, and suddenly there are websites that do the same thing as eMachineShop, only with fabric? Or clothing? Or more sophisticated stuff, like motors and gears and robotics?

This really could mark the beginning of a new era. Imagine a world where people use P2P programs to share designs for CARS, rather than Eminem albums. Hey, you got that new Ferrari? I'll trade you this custom convertible that some guy designed and posted to Usenet. What's happening is that the advancing technology of the internet is making all forms of information accessible to everyone. 3D objects are nothing more than information, just like music, movies, pictures, etc... Some day piracy of music and movies will be the least of the **AA's worries. Maybe AAA will be the next "Association of America" to try to stop P2P.

Re:eMachineShop is being grossly underrated!

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, that's just my opinion, but think about it for a second. You can draw up a three dimensional object, click a few buttons, and have that object delivered to your doorstep within two weeks!

Bugs Bunny has been doing that for years, and he would only do two-dimensional drawings and get his working prototype back in seconds.

This technology has a long way to go before it catches up with those Loony Tunes.

Re:eMachineShop is being grossly underrated!

[Jedi Holocron]

I agree completely.

Actaully, what you refer to is the cottage industry that Alvin Toffler discussed in The Third Wave.

Well worth reading...

Re:eMachineShop is being grossly underrated!

[dfn_deux]

Nifty technology yes, a boon for home tinkerers hardly....
Go ahead and make some simple brackets using their software and you will quickly notice that they charge per machine operation and at rates much much higher than most machine shops. The ease of having instant quotes and ordering built into the software is quickly offset by the additional costs for their ridiculous production costs as well as paying to have the parts shipped.
If you look in your local yellow pages I'm sure you'll find that there is a mchine shop located local to you that can make parts from a properly formed CAD drawing and do it for far cheaper than Emachine shop...

Re:eMachineShop is being grossly underrated!

[MickLinux]

There's another huge advantage here, as well. This software will let the average person figure out designs that are inherently cheap. Then, when they want mass production (not an emachineshop specialty), they will already be fairly well optimized to get low cost parts. That's pretty impressive.

Re:eMachineShop is being grossly underrated!

[jcam2]

What I want to know is, how hard would it be to design and order a handgun and have them make and send you the parts to assemble yourself? If you ordered it a bit at a time, they might not even know what you were ordering, especially if the whole manufacturing process is automated ..

Re:eMachineShop is being grossly underrated!

[Flamingcheeze]

Working as a design engineer, I get to play with rapid prototyping all the time. It's wicked cool. There's now a company that will send you injection molded parts for cheap within a couple weeks of sending them the file, with the same type of auto-quoting software.

Awesome stuff. I think their name is ProtoMold, or something like that.

Design Tools

[Anonymous Coward]

Now of course when designing your pcb you need a wide range of useful tools.

Cadius Tools

Yes I do work for them :)

"Art of Electronics"

[elgatozorbas]

By Horowitz ans Hill is a very nice and complete book about analog and digital electronics
Z

how do you know they won't steal your design?

[utexaspunk]

just a thought...

Re:how do you know they won't steal your design?

[Kiryat Malachi]

Well, generally because if they were to steal your design and you proved it, they would never have another customer again in their lives. If you think your design is so valuable they might risk it, I suggest you think again; if you still think so, then learn your own damn fabrication techniques, or find a machine shop that'll sign some sort of legal document preventing that sort of occurrence.

Oh, and stop taking the paranoia pills.

Re:how do you know they won't steal your design?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll make a copy before I send it.

Am I the only one...

[Blublu]

Am I the only one who thought this was about how to "cure" people from being at the computer all day long?

Re:It's not really the design-Price...

[CoasterFamily]

I worked for small circuit board company right out of college (Circuit Center, Inc.). They made prototype PCB/PWB with really fast turn-arounds. But, the price killed the company. Most boards were done in 8-10 days. The fastest were 24 hours. They just couldn't keep up with the competition though. The profit margin on circuit boards is not as high as you might think. Especially once you consider machinery, engineering , and sales staffs.

Re:proprietary file formats will get you in the en

[MarsDefenseMinister]

I find it odd that the URL is cadsoftusa.com, but the page is in German. Is the software also in German? If it's English, I'll give it a shot.

I'm here too often

[azuretek]

I come to slashdot too often, before I'd hear all kinds of complaints about dupes but I'd never notice it. Oh but now I notice every single one... I suppose I just come here too often. Thank you slashdot for filling up those precious minutes I could be working...

QuickParts has been doing that for a few years

[Uttles]

A friend of mine works for Quickparts.com, a company that will produce prototypes based on CAD drawings that you submit over the internet. It's based in NE Atlanta, GA, and is focused on industrial parts. They will fill orders on a very short term basis for people who don't have enough inventory or want to do a test production run. Pretty nifty stuff.

Burn Baby... BURN

[the_mad_poster]

Go ahead... mod me down to hell and back. I'm already banned from posting with Excellent karma and no recent downmods to speak of. As you can see, it hurts me a great deal.

Re:Burn Baby... BURN

[robi2106]

And why haven't we had any links yet to the ultimate burnination of Strong Bad.

jason

Mod up

[Tlosk]

The new instant pricing is the real inovation here as the parent pointed out. They've essentially put an engineer in a box for your personal use.

Hank Spim, Slash Developer

[Ethelred Unraed]

Witness Taco's flippant 'ohwellweeventuallyfigureditout' journal on the recent 503 crap.

Link for your convenience.

I'd say it's inappropriate to have people (paying subscribers, even) have their entire subnet get knocked off Slashdot, just because of three downmods in 24 hours. (Then have an impertinent "meh, wait out the ban period" as the response.)

Hmm...kinda like shooting mosquitos with bazookas.

HANK
Well, I've been a Slash developer all my life. I love Slashdotters. That's why I like to kill 'em. I wouldn't kill an Slashdotter I didn't like. Goodday Roy.

Pull back to reveal he is walking with his brother in fairly rough server farm. They pull a small trailer with 'high explosives' written in large letters on the side. The trailer has modbombs in it. Hank takes a bazooka from the trailer.

VOICEOVER
Hank and Roy Spim are tough, fearless Slash developers who have chosen to live in a violent, unrelenting world of nature's creatures, where only the fittest survive. Today they are off to hunt Slashdotters.

Big close-up Roy Spim. He is obviously searching for something.

ROY (voice over)
The Slashdotter's a clever little bastard. You can mod him for days and days until you really get to know him like a friend. He knows you're there, and you know he's there. It's a game of wits. You hate him, then you respect him, then you kill him.

...

Just a little humor to save the day!

Cheers,

Ethelred (a fellow subscriber)

Summary Incorrect?

[nacturation]

I was expecting an article about real-life stories of how people are merging the two services to deliver custom electronics hardware to others. That would have been really great to read up on how entrepreneurs really are building viable businesses. Instead, it's just about how the writer tried out a couple of random parts, and that's it.

Now the cynic in me says that this is a rewritten duplicate article from a paid advertiser... not even the PC Magazine reference changed at all. Perhaps the story didn't do so well since it was posted on a Friday evening, so they try again during the middle of the week. Also, normally mentions of duplicates are modded up as informative but every single instance here has been modded down into oblivion. Sort of suspicious if you ask me. We'll see if this post gets mod-bombed down.

dupe!

[bagofcrap]

Bah. the original Humbug.

Re:3 steps: turn screen off, get out, what's the 3

[maxwell demon]

No, the three steps are clearly:

1. Turn off PC
2. ???
3. Profit!

Rise of the cottage industry?

[Jedi Holocron]

I think what we are seeing is the rise of the cottage industry (discussed here, here, & here as examples) brought up by Alvin Toffler in The Third Wave .

Wierd Science

[spookyfluke]

Will I have to strap a bra around my head?

In other news, /. editors actually READ /.

[GuyFawkes]

before posting dupe articles..........

Calling 1985, calling 1985

[deacon]

I hate to break it to PC Mag, but people were going from CAD to parts with no prints in 1985.

Maybe back in 1970 people were designing board etch (scaled up 10 times or so) layouts by placing self-adhesive red transparent tape (like pinstriping tape) onto clear plastic sheets, and then projecting this master onto sensitized copper-clad boards.

Old boards that have curved lines for the traces are layed out this way. CAD boards have straight lines and 90 or 45 degree angles in the traces.

As far as mechanical parts go, back in 1985 you could take a 3d wireframe of your mechanical part, send the IGES file to the vendor, and they would use

SMP - 81 , which dates back to 1979 (for sheetmetal)

or

Mastercam (for machined parts)

This article is just blatant fluff advertising for the products reviewed, as well as another example of "journalists" having no idea about the timeline or of similar products which have existed for years.

It's really amazing that "journalists" get paid: I am probably wrong just as often, but I post for free.

Hey, maybe I could get a side job at the NYT...

I can't believe its not here!

[Anonymous Coward]

1) Design custom chip
2) ...
3) Profit!

Re: went out of business

[nusratt]

"He would machine custom parts for his motorcycle . . . Before they closed the doors, he sand blasted then powder coated dozens of various parts for his bike. It would have cost a FORTUNE to do all that without the benefit of his employer."

And they went out of business? I'm shocked! ;-)

DELETE THIS TOPIC.

[ShadowRage]

this topic is EXACTLY the same as a topic posted around a week ago, in fact, the same wording, hell, I still have the links in history.

unless it got accidently accepted twice, or taco wanted to put a fancy new title on it, I think someone didnt read back at older articles.

Same thing with t-shirts, mugs, hats

[tooley]

Plug...

http://www.cafepress.com/

Does the same thing with mugs, hats, t-shirts, underwear. You send them artwork, they set it up and print it. The extra trick there is that they provide all the retail / payment services.

I found it after linking from http://www.rockpapersaddam.com/

-tooley-

Re:This is exactly what I've wanted for a long tim

[ncc74656]

After the 80's, it became increasingly more difficult for the electronics enthusiast to build hardware of moderate complexity - soldering SMT components to a board is _NOT_ feasible for the average hobbyist.

Soldering SMTs isn't that difficult...in some ways, it's actually a little bit faster, as you don't have to bend & trim component leads, keep flipping the board over, etc. All you need is a really fine-tipped iron (something like this), some flux, some fine solder, some tweezers, and a somewhat steady hand. A good bit of the time, you don't even really need to add solder...flux the pads, place the part, and hold it down with the tweezers while you touch the iron tip to a couple of leads. Once it's tacked down, you can start hitting each lead one-by-one for a couple seconds each or so to secure it to the board. Between the pad and the component lead, there's often enough solder to hold the component securely without adding more. Use a spray defluxer to clean up the board and you're done.

Heh

[Safety Cap]

From the horse's mouth:

The code refresh went as well as could be expected... which is to say that there was some twists, turns, and a whole lotta bad aftermath, but that's par for the course.

I'm already $rblt'd, and have karma to burn, so here goes, baby!

I'm not saying anything new, but I wish Taco and VA all the success in the world, because if this show ever comes to an end and he is forced to play developer in the real world (where uptime matters), then he will find out PDQ what happens to coders who develop direct to Production and then shrug, "Par for the course, Chief!" when the prod systems go down in flames.

Re:Heh

[tomhudson]

The last time they did a major upgrade, they tested it out - remember hammering on brak.slashdot.org?

So we know that they do know how to test stuff before putting it into use, and that they've done so in the past.

So the question becomes - Why the change in procedure?

<tinfoil_hat_mode>

1. Taco knows better
2. VA knows better
3. This wasn't done the usual way

Ergo - someone who doesn't have a clue ordered this.

So why would it be necessary to swap in a bunch of code that's untested and doesn't have any visible effect (aside from the 500s, 503s, etc while the kinks were worked out)?

If it was business-related, it would have been tested.

Ergo, it was not a business decision.

So, who or what has the power to order stuff like that, and also to make you keep your mouth shut about it?

</tinfoil_hat_mode>

Oh-oh, there's a couple of suits with shiny badges at the door ... gotta go!

Re:Heh

[dthable]

I'm not saying anything new, but I wish Taco and VA all the success in the world, because if this show ever comes to an end and he is forced to play developer in the real world (where uptime matters), then he will find out PDQ what happens to coders who develop direct to Production and then shrug, "Par for the course, Chief!" when the prod systems go down in flames.

Sounds like every Lotus Notes developer that I've ever worked with.

Even with the first sign of trouble, you would think that he would roll changes back to the last known good version while jamie tries to figure out some of the issues.

That's what killed me

[Sean Clifford]

Did you know that your local grocery store carries everything you need to make WMDs? Its absolutley true! Chlorine bleach and ammonia, they mix into an extremely poisonous gas. You then need a way to store it (I suggest a complex gaseous storage device called a baloon). All 3 of these things are available at any grocery store.

That's what killed me. I closed the door to the bathroom to keep the cats out, and used both an ammonia-based cleaner and bleach-based cleaner. The resultant cloud of poisonous gas soon overwhelmed me, killing me within minutes.

If I had only known, I'd be alive today. :(

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Please learn how to make links.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your "Shameless plug" would be more effective if you would learn how to make links.

<a href="http://www.protocallonline.com">prototypi ng broker</a>

(without any spaces put there by Slashdot) yields: prototyping broker

Re:Please learn how to make links.

[johndou1]

prototyping broker

Thanx for the advice

Teflon Mouse Tape

Re: went out of business

[JaxGator75]

heehee

touche'

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[PCB123 MrWizard]

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