Mapping The Tour de France Riders From Space

Roland Piquepaille writes "It was just a matter of time before someone gets the idea of using satellite localization to map the positions of the cyclists of the Tour de France. In a first test on July 21 during the ascension to l'Alpe d'Huez, ten riders were equipped with receivers and tracked by the EGNOS European satellite positioning system, a preparatory programme for the Galileo system. The European Space Agency (ESA) reports about this first test in "The best view of the Tour is from space." It's highly possible that all riders can get receivers as soon as next year. And this data will be available on the Web, so you will know in real time the exact location of your favorite champion. Read this summary for more details and a computer-generated image showing the respective positions of Lance Armstrong and Richard Virenque, the top-ranked climber, while climbing to the top of l'Alpe d'Huez."

Comments

Drugs and Bikes

[mfh]

This story would be a whole lot better if it included a biorhythm readout of the steroid or drug content of each rider! I was listening to the CBC radio in the car again today and they had a very insightful discussion about the Belgian Christophe Brandt who withdrew after testing positive for the narcotic methadone. It seems that the Tour is being marred by this drug controversy.

However the tracking system they are planning for next year seems quite a bit better than what is currently available, like this fairly unintuitive flash gizmo on CBC.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

Methadon does not improve your biking skills or endurance. Its said his doctor wasnt careful with his equipment while preparing a food supplement for the guy. The methadon was left there from earlier use of the equipment. Bad luck for the guy that technology can almost detect a molecule of "bad stuff" in your blood.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[icedivr]

The strange thing about Brandt's withdrawal is that methadone is typically associated with treatment of heroin addiction. I don't think there are any performance-enhancing effects to methadone, and it's certainly a rare occurrence to hear of someone in professional athletics testing positive for it!

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[dago]

yes, and the famous "pot belge", which was widely used amongst clyclist, contains antalgics, cafein, cocain, amphetamins and ... heroin.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a medical doctor and confirm that this is in fact TRUE, however, I have to keep my identity secret ala DEEP THROAT. We do indeed lace cancer drugs with undetectable performance enhancing drugs. contact me at frenchsnob@hatesamericans.com to set up a meeting.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

to ease the pain...

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[MJN222]

The sports world in general is being marred by a drug controversy. There's a huge inquiry in the US about BALCO, a lab that allegedly distributed steroids to a lot of athletes. The type of steroid was THG, which was until recently undetectable in drug tests.

As far as cycling is concerned, the drug scandal revolves around EPO, which increases the amount of oxygen in the blood and boosts endurance. The scandal reached a peak in the late nineties when a LOT of riders tested positive, among them Richard Virenque. Just a couple of weeks ago former Tour champion Greg LeMond accused Lance Armstrong of using EPO. Although Lance has been forced to deflect doping accusations for a few years now, I don't think anyone as well known as LeMond had make such an accusation.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

Damn, I was getting suspicious about all these guys who would get cancer, and the next thing you know, they're running around the world in a wheelchair or on one leg or with no nose. Thank you for giving us the real poop.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[selderrr]

there we go again... Brandt was tested positive on Methadon, a substance that DOES NOT HELP cycling better. It's some sort of pain killer.

Additionally, the dose was miniscule. So small that it is impossible to have any advantage or even effect whatshowever. It is very likely that he's the victim of eating something which contained some Methadon without his knowledge. (did you know for instance that tap water in many cities contains high traces of Oestrogen ? Does that make you a transexual ?)

Those athletes work and live on the edge where NONE OF US HERE has ever been and will ever be. Cycling, especially the Tour de France is the most intense and demanding sport on earth. Those guys burn up to 12.000calories in one day (insert lame joke here) andthey have no choice but to nurse their bodies at perfection. That includes vitamins and food supplements that are on the edge of what's allowed. But ON THE EDGE is not equal to OVER THE EDGE. Each of these guys goes as far as his doctor tells him. The slightest mistake tests them positive.

Don't be one of those bystanders booing 'cycling is all about dope !'. The sport is insane, the competition is insane, the food is insane too. There are surely some dopeheads, as in every sport. But armstrong for instance, gets tested EVERY DAY. Also at home, at unexpected times. Outside racing season.

irst come to live in a racing country (I'm from Belgium) and experience cycling first handed. There's probably less than 1% of the /. population that would make it up alpe d'huez... even with all the dope they wanted.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[nurb432]

Why do we complain when an athlete uses a drug that is prescribed when 99% of the civilized world uses legal drugs on a daily basis? Both for medicinal and recreational reasons. ( yes, caffeine and nicotine qualify as recreational drugs.. )

Since the drugs are available to ALL the athletes the playing field is STILL level.. just the bar is much higher..

I think if we just need to off this hypocritical anti-drug kick and let them compete.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Isldeur]

there we go again... Brandt was tested positive on Methadon, a substance that DOES NOT HELP cycling better. It's some sort of pain killer.

Additionally, the dose was miniscule. So small that it is impossible to have any advantage or even effect whatshowever. It is very likely that he's the victim of eating something which contained some Methadon without his knowledge. (did you know for instance that tap water in many cities contains high traces of Oestrogen ? Does that make you a transexual ?)

This is rediculous. Methadone is a narcotic. It was designed to get people off Heroin by having a slower rush and longer half-life (dulling the steep on/off effects of heroin).

In short: it's a painkiller. Don't tell me that doesn't help.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Isldeur]

It is very likely that he's the victim of eating something which contained some Methadon without his knowledge.

I'm sorry, I should have posted this the first time. Do you know that methadone is

1. a tightly controlled substance, and
2. a thick dark green syrup.

? That said how many people do you think go around having "methadone sandwiches"?? Jesus.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[selderrr]

like i said : it it doesn't help you cycle better... shall I repeat it again ? Do you think that an athlete on heroin would perform better ? Maybe for sprinters, who need to unleash all their energy in 10 seconds and not feel the pain they are inflicting on their muscles, but for cycling, where you're on a bycicle for 6 hours, it's all about being clear in the head and knowing how to plan the race. narcotics are the last thing you want.

I really can't imagine that Brandt would take Methadon in such small dose. It's simply ridiculous.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[macrom]

I think the point of testing for methadone in cycling is two-fold :

1. Methadone can be a painkiller, which means that perhaps a cyclist could push harder despite the pain and cramping from lactic acid buildup in the muscles.

2. As mentioned above, methadone is most commonly used to treat heroin addiction, so the presence on methadone NOW could possibly indicate the use of drugs previously in the year.

Regardless of how it got into his system, they have to follow the rules. Accidentally ingested methadone? That's a tad far-fetched, don't you think? What kind of team chef is this guy working with that allows drugs to fall into the pot of pasta? And what kind of team doctor wouldn't be on the lookout for the banned substances when keeping an athlete on a medical regimen?

While I don't agree with the comment in reference to Lance Armstrong, Greg LeMond was somewhat on target when he said, "In cycling, there are no miracles, only explanations." There's an explanation for the methadone in Brandt's blood and someday the truth will surface.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[IWannaBeAnAC]

It certainly does help. In the past, they used to use alcohol instead. But the dehydrating effects of alcohol (and ignorance of same) caused a rider to die. This was a few years ago now. Like it or not, drugs of one sort or another have always been used on the Tour, and probably still are today.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[IWannaBeAnAC]

But, if it was allowed to take drugs then there is a problem because a lot of drugs that are short-term performance-enhancing are very bad for you. But, some people are determined enough to win that they don't care if the drugs will kill them.

But, the result would be that athletes have very short life spans (including many that would die while competing), and people who care about their long term health would not be able to compete effectively.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[selderrr]

you clearly have no idea what top athles eat. Do yo really think these guys eat sandwiches during the race ???

Please dude, inform yourself before making a joke. racing food is developed by laboratories that also work on food for astronauts and fighter-pilots : i.e. eating under extreme conditions.

As i said in my previous post : top-athletes like Armstrong & Ullrich burn up to 12.000 calories in 6 hours. That would be about 100 sandwiches i guess.... No way you can intake such amount of energy trhu ordinary food. They eat liquid food & powerbars during the race. Food that is made in proportion to what their body needs and can absorb. There are dozens of vitamin and mineral additions in it that we probably don't even know. They have a team of doctors and food specialists to balance the diet and add whatever the body seems to lack (they have blood taken before & after every race to balance the diet). Do you really think these racers have time or energy or interest to follow tat up ? They blindly trust their doctors and hope nobody messes it up. Armstrong will never take any drink from a spectator offering it, even during the heaviest climb when he badly wants to drink. The risk that there's something forbidden in it is just not worth it. Do you think that these guys would just go hupla and as you phrase it "have a methadon sandwich" ?

puhlease...

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

...and it very well could be that he gets to have medically-prescribed testosterone replacement therapy that KICKS ASS over normal testosterone. But I don't think so, because he's not a muscular freak.

He DOES seem to have a pretty high VO2-max, as well as an incredible pain threshold (probably something to do with cancer treatment improved this) and lactic acid threshold.

He was a high-level triathlete before being a bike racer. There is something respectfully f'd in the head with tri-geeks anyways... as if it's not good enough just to ride a bike insanely, but to run insanely and *SWIM* also... *:)

The problem with Greg's diatribe is that they level accusations without any proof, much like the book.

It's about as fair as me not liking you (whoever you happen to be), and saying out loud, "stop messing around with the kids at the local daycare", to whomever lends an ear.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[110010001000]

Uh, I think his point is that it is unlikely that these "athles" (as you called them) ingested drugs without them knowing about it. As you said yourself, their diets are tightly controlled and everything they take is recorded by the teams. Therefore it is silly to day that he tested positive for METHADONE for chrissakes by eating something. These guys are all taking some sort of performance enhancing substance - admit it.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you think that an athlete on heroin would perform better ?

Apparently it does: the "belgian pot" does include Heroin (along with amphetamine, cocaine, and cafeine)... BTW, the "belgian pot" is also addictive, which is a extremely likely reason to use Methadon, when you want to stop it to participate in the Tour de France. Small doses means only that it was taken long ago.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

He DOES seem to have a pretty high VO2-max, as well as an incredible pain threshold (probably something to do with cancer treatment improved this) and lactic acid threshold.

Well doping does help improving the VO2-max... much more than training in fact. There are examples of improving VO2-max by 40% in six months (versus +10% by training).

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

These guys are all taking some sort of performance enhancing substance - admit it. p Indeed.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

Lance Armstrong's "cancer drugs" are laced with new undetectable steroid-like performance improvers!

Actually testicular cancer itself results in production of beta-hCG which is itself a doping product sold on crappy sites. Now since you are asking, why wasn't HCG detected in Lance Armstrong's blood or urine, before his cancer was generalized - since it is a forbidden product and is systematically tested.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[michael_cain]

Those guys burn up to 12.000calories in one day (insert lame joke here)

A lot of people don't appreciate how big a role nutrition plays in Tour performance. The typical rider consumes about 7,000 calories per day; almost all of them lose weight over the course of the race. About 70% of the body's energy production uses carbohydrates; so they need about 5,000 carb calories per day; your muscles and liver can store about 2,000. So lots of the calories have to be ingested while riding. A typical rider will sweat about three gallons during a stage, and almost all of that needs to be replaced. Lots of drinking while riding as well. Small errors in the amount you eat and drink and what you eat and drink can make a very large difference at this level of performance.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[selderrr]

For chrissakes (as you call him. Beware when playing grammar nazi), OFFCOURSE they take performance enhancing substances ! Loads of'em ! Sugared water is a performance enhancher ! Powerbars are !

The points i'm trying to make are multiple :
1) these guys take a very balanced diet that contains loads of stuff that is on the edge of what is allowed. But as long as it's on the right side, it's ok for me.
2) they don't prepare the diet themselves. If the doctor makes a mistake, they're fucked
3) there is stuff in our environment or in ordinary food that you can't know about, but can result in tiny traces of illegal products which cause a positive test
4) those racers know very well that, when caught, they hang. For good. Trust me that they take no risks. Especially the top racers : they are tested after every stage. Not like tennis or other sports where doping tests are a rarity. No other sport is so serious about doping as bicycle racing.


I know that, in the past there have been doping scandals, but why generalize like mad ? Give the gus a break for chrissake (sic :-) They practice the toughest sport on earth.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[justMichael]

The strange thing about Brandt's withdrawal is that methadone is typically associated with treatment of heroin addiction. I don't think there are any performance-enhancing effects to methadone, and it's certainly a rare occurrence to hear of someone in professional athletics testing positive for it!

From here:

Methadone was used just like morphine for war victims who had severe injuries, or that were close to death. Methadone effectively numbed the pain of severe wounds, and for that reason spread quickly.

If you have ever cycled up a mountain, no not that little rise in the road, something where you gain 3000+ feet of elevation in a handful of miles. You would know that the pain in your legs can be extremely painful when you exceed your anerobic threshold. If you can ignore that pain you can go harder longer and therefore have an advantage. There are other things to help with this as well although I don't know if they are legal in the tour. I do remember this stuff wreaking havoc in my intestinal tract, but that was years ago.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[asdfghjklqwertyuiop]

Uh, I think his point is that it is unlikely that these "athles" (as you called them) ingested drugs without them knowing about it. [snip]
These guys are all taking some sort of performance enhancing substance - admit it.

Yeah - I'll admit it. I'm pretty sure they all drink water, and that is one of the best performance enhancers around. You sure do perform a lot better with it than without it.

Don't even get me started on carbohydrates... these "athletes"... bleh.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

4) those racers know very well that, when caught, they hang.

Unless they use non-tested product (like EPO until 97 in cyclism), unless they manage it (stop EPO on time before the race, and later inject previous one's blood samples), unless they manage to mask it (the controlled people are warned 20 minutes before they arrive - enough to drink and inject anything, plus delays before actual control), and unless the Tour organization and the UCI (Cycling Organization) have a wested interest in not declaring you a cheat because otherwise interest in Tour or in Cycling will drop dramatically.

I know that, in the past there have been doping scandals, but why generalize like mad ?

Well doping has been systematic in the race - for a reason: I don't know many competitions of other sports lasting more than 10 days in a row. Meanwhile, note that the major scandal in 1998, did not come from the UCI and Tour anti-doping control: they come from an over-zealous customs agent (same for the Giro in 1999 - same for the Cofidis scandal). This alone is scandalous: what is the explanation for this total failure?

The icing of the cake is some racers having admitted using doping products for 10 years, and who have been controlled positive only one time, 8 years ago (Philippe Gaumont).

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell is this mod'd at +5?

If it's a painkiller, used in one of the most painful athletic endurance events known, it going to help you cycle better. The limits of endurance is largely biochemical but it's insane to argue that there is not a huge mental factor involved. Killing the pain is going to make the athlete push more, plain and simple.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[wk633]

Accidental intake of drugs is easy. Just ask Silken Laumen, the Canadian rower who took the wrong cold medication durring the PanAm games. She got it cleared with her team doctors, who basically screwed up. Canada had to give up the medal (I think it was for the Coxless 4s). Since it was an obvious honest mistake, there were no long term repercussions against Lauman. This was after her '92 comeback from having her quadracept severed from her thigh. She went on to win a bronze in Barcelona.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/olympians/laumann.shtml
(IE only link, sorry, or google and use the cache)

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[instarx]

Drugs in the environment is a potentially serious problem in the world (no matter what the pharmaceutical company lobbyists tell you). Animal feed often contains very large amounts of antibiotics and hormones that find their way into the food supply and the environment in general. Pharmaceutical companies market these uses of their products very aggressively to farmers and ranchers to increase production and profits. Not all of these substances are metabolized and humans get dosed with them when they eat the meat (beef and chicken products are particularly high in these agents). Milk also has significant hormone and antibiotic contaminants.

Hormones are a particular problem since such very small amounts of them can cause effects in humans. Even if hormone therapy were restricted to humans (as opposed to feed animals) it would still be a problem since un-metabolized hormones are excreted in urine to the water supply. Concentrations of hormones have been measured in drinking water in some communities at significant levels. No one knows what the effects of long term low-level hormone dosing has on the human population.

So if the test is sensitive enough it is quite possible to test positive for drug use just by eating meat. Given the amount of calories these racers must consume daily I find it plausible he may have had a "methadone sandwich" of sorts.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

Why do we complain when an athlete uses a drug that is prescribed when 99% of the civilized world uses legal drugs on a daily basis?

Because it's not a direct competition - the only goal of competition in sport is too see who is the best on a given day. In this context, using drugs is completly defeating the purpose and is cheating. Unlike the random singer who takes drugs to be creative, and whose goal is to compose a great song.

Since the drugs are available to ALL the athletes the playing field is STILL level.. just the bar is much higher..

No. First, the best drugs are available only to the more wealthy teams, along with some medical practices which are really really expensive - some racers have indeed retired because they couldn't afford the drugs. Second, drugs have different effects on different people: for instance growth hormone had no effect on Alex Zulle when he tried it.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[Anonymous Coward]

Irrelevant Bullshit. You do NOT "accidentally" take methadone. You don't buy it at the corner drugstore. Your friends don't loan it to you by mistake. Your girlfriend Lauman has nothing to do with this.

Re:Drugs and Bikes

[wk633]

And you don't intentionally take methadone if you're going to race a bike.

Re:late

[Anonymous Coward]

AND LANCE WINS!!!

Clarifications

[Anonymous Coward]

They are tracked with GPS receivers. EGNOS (European Geostationary Navigation Overlay System) is the European equivalent of WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System). These systems reduce the distortions introduced by atmospheric effects by measuring the distortions at a number of base stations with known locations and transmitting the distortion map via geostationary satellites.

Re:Clarifications

[GPSguy]

Just to add a little information, wince 1 MAY 2000, when Selective Availability was disabled, autonomous GPS using the L1 Coarse Acquisition code has had a typical error of 6m about 90% of the time. This is more than sufficient to track these guys both in terms of spatial positioning, and in terms of speed.

Use of EGNOS, correctly compared with WAAS, will enhance the position accuracy to about 1m error, but velocity accuracies won't be enhanced very much.

It'd help if the FUD about GPS had not been included in the ESA article.

Re:Clarifications

[FireFury03]

I also suspect they aren't using EGNOS at all (at least almost certainly not an especially high proportion of the time). You need a good view of the equatorial horizon to use SBAS (Satellite Based Augmentation System - i.e. WAAS or EGNOS) since unlike the GPS satellites, the SBAS satellites are geostationary. I very much doubt that these guys have a consistently good view of the southern horizon, especially given the mountainous terrain they're on.

Wins Again

[jfinke]

On another note, Lance won again. It was actually a pretty riveting end to the Tour de France.

Re:Wins Again

[Patik]

A couple news articles about it:

AP story

Sports Illustrated/CNN

Re:Wins Again

[ShinmaWa]

Having stood along with the crowds along the Champs-Elysee on the last day of the Tour, I don't know if I'd call it "riveting".

The last day is mostly for the cameras and the crowds. The winner is already known and has practically no chance of losing at that point. The leaders don't even bother trying to win the stage and come in waaaaay in the back of pack, often over 20 seconds behind the stage leader. 20 seconds doesn't seem like a lot, but that actually puts them at the back of the pack. Lance is known to drink champaigne and chat with reporters while "racing" on his last day.

This year, Lance came in 114th.

The last day of the Tour is a lot of fun with the crowds, the booths, the parades (lots of parades) and the music, but its not "riveting". However, I did get lots of great photos and movies as they passed me over 20 times!

Re:Wins Again

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep, once again this year Lance wins, I'm at the edge of my seat watching the sprinters battle it out to the last second, and my girlfriend is asleep next to me. Hopefully next year will be number 7.

Shinma Wa, any chance you'll be posting some clips online? I'd love to see some shots from the spectators pov.

Re:Wins Again

[jfinke]

Yes, the overall leader was determine, some would say, several days ago. However, this year, there was a break away group that led for several laps upto 35 secs. This is much different than usual where everyone sits back and then at the final moment lets the sprinters dual it out. But, I am not a biking expert, just what I have seen, heard, and read.

Re:Wins Again

[Anonymous Coward]

However, this year, there was a break away group that led for several laps upto 35 secs. This is much different than usual where everyone sits back

You must be new to the Tour then. While it is quite rare for leaders to fight for the win on the Champs Elysee, escapes have happened pretty regularly on the last stage. It's actually a good stage for those, since leaders don't particularly care.

Re:Wins Again

[jshepherd]

Having stood along with the crowds along the Champs-Elysee on the last day of the Tour, I don't know if I'd call it "riveting".

I definitely agree in general: the final stage is usually a day of photo ops, and a last chance for a sprinter to claim a stage win.

The outstanding exception in recent memory was the 1989 Tour, when the final stage was a 24.5 km time trial and, as it turned out, the decisive stage of the race. I still remember a friend calling and telling me that Greg Lemond had miraculously taken nearly a minute out of Laurent Fignon: the leader by 50 seconds at the beginning of the stage. That was one last day that truly deserved to be called "riveting."

Re:Wins Again

[YetAnotherDave]

the yellow jersey was decided well before the end, but the race for the green (points, best sprinter) was decided at the finish today.

Often the most exciting finishes late in the race don't involve the big contenders for the yellow jersey, since they aren't willing to take the risks others are..

Re:Wins Again

[Yokaze]

> The winner is already known and has practically no chance of losing at that point.
> Lance is known to drink champaigne and chat with reporters while "racing" on his last day.

Actually, it is a custom, that on the last day there are no attacks on the leading positions, because, as you said, the winner is usually known and such attacks would only be a sign of bad sportsmanship.

After 6 victories it may seem so, but chatting and drinking champagne is also not a habit of Mr. Armstrong is especially know for, but it is common practice among the competitors for the yellow jersey.

Re:Wins Again

[nutshell42]

Well he deserved it.

There are few sports where the athletes impress me as much as in cycling. Take the time trial yesterday 50km/h average for 55km while climbing 700 meters during that stage.

I doubt I'd be able to reach 50km/h unless rolling down a hill

Re:Wins Again

[TamMan2000]

The LeMond win was on the final time trial, the day before the last stage...

Tracking teams and other uses

[Infonaut]

I find this interesting because it opens up the possibility of being able to track not only individuals, but teams. Knowing where a dominant rider is in relation to the supporting members of his team is vitally important in understanding the overall situation. I envision an applet that continuously checks the positional data and would allow me to watch the relative positions of riders from various teams using color coding.

Sometimes events inside the peloton go unwatched by commentators who are paying more attention to the leaders who have broken away from the main group. It would be nice to be able to see the jockeying that occurs between teams and individuals.

The data feed could also be used to help keep track of riders as they go after the green (points) jersey. This is a really exciting part of the Tour de France that never really gets as much attention as it deserves.

Let's hope this data gets put to good use. Kudos to the ESA!

Re:Tracking teams and other uses

[erlando]

The data feed could also be used to help keep track of riders as they go after the green (points) jersey. This is a really exciting part of the Tour de France that never really gets as much attention as it deserves.

The only downside is if a rider needs to change his bike in the middle of a stage. Any and all positional data for that rider will be useless..

Re:Tracking teams and other uses

[InsaneGeek]

Wonder how this will affect one of the major benefits of being able to go last: you know the pace of the people in front of you and where you are relative to them. This kind of nicks that completely (course it's not that much of an advantage when you got a guy on a cell phone calling in times)

Re:Tracking teams and other uses

[Jeff DeMaagd]

I wonder if this information would aid plotters. I remember hearing of one person that was prevented from getting his 6th straight win because someone attacked him. Now it would be easier for people to know where to go to attack their favorite rider's opponent.

Re:Tracking teams and other uses

[Anonymous Coward]

How much? They can already watch the TV feed in the race director cars. The riders have two-way comms with their team personnel in the cars. There are not too many mysteries out on the race course anymore.

While it was cool that Lance won, it kind of sucked compared to past TdF's in that NONE of the other teams did anything at all concentrated to attack. Even in the past some of the French teams or Kelme would attack on a climb, just to get a stage victory.

If Lance is doping, so must the rest of Postal. The whole Postal *TEAM* was able to ride fast enough and long enough to keep everyone on the rivet so that they could not attack.

Is US Postal the Panasonic of the 2000's?

Re:Tracking teams and other uses

[John Allsup]

They'd probably require the receivers to be of a standard shape with removable modules. It would then be the rider's responsibility to ensure that they stuck their transponder-thingy into whichever bike they are riding.

Alternatively, and this is the more obvious solution: strap the receiver to the cyclist! (They already have heart rate monitors attached to them, one more piece of kit shouldn't be too bad.)

Re:Tracking teams and other uses

[John Allsup]

If you watch the TV transmissions, you will note that, with time trials, they already have a split screen thing view with a live update of the gap in seconds, in terms of overall classification, between leading riders. However they do this will be enough for a rider to know within a second or two anyhow, so satellite tracking will add little there, except for the ability for everybody to do this sort of thing between any riders they choose.

APRS

[j1m 5n0w]

This would be a good use of APRS (automatic position reporting system). The basic idea is that you plug a gps into a handheld HAM radio, and the radio transmits your position at periodic intervals.

-jim

Re:APRS

[grumling]

Yep. I think it would be a great tool for coaches and the coverage to get location and other telemetry from the riders in somewhat real time.

I noticed OLN was putting heart rate information from (I think) Robbie McEwen in the final sprint. However, I doubt they were using APRS, as the updates were too fast - they most likely used some constant carrier method. Wasteful of bandwidth, but broadcasters have never been known for efficiency of communication.

I think for small local races, APRS could be a boon for tracking and helping folks understand bike racing. With neat beacons like the pocket tracker and digipeaters on chase vehicles, one could get very good coverage without a lot of complaining from the riders about weight.

little slow on the button?

[RestiffBard]

Hey, slashdot, how about moving a little quicker on the submissions now and then. This info would have been nifty about 3 days ago. Seeing as I just watched Lance roll through Paris I suppose we're now just early for next year.

Extrapolation

[toetagger1]

Would be nice if they used some sort of extrapolation of the original data points to make the animation more smooth. Currenlty, they just place a picture of the rider at each data point, which doesn't looke very attractive. Would be nice to see an animated picture of the pike and rider as well. But then again, this is a proof of concept for the Galileo project, and not a tool for the media.

Excellent...

[Anonymous Coward]

This is a TERRORIST ATTACK waiting to happen! They will be sorry when the SCUD MISSILES are taking out riders with CENTIMETER PRESICION!

Drugs and ANY SPORT

[toetagger1]

Bikes are no more affected by drugs than Baseball, Football, Soccer, track and field, swimming, you name it, there are drugs. It's only the sports that crack down on drug use that fight with the immage problem, such as the Olympics and Tour de France.

Re:Drugs and ANY SPORT

[Anonymous Coward]

Bikes are no more affected by drugs than Baseball, Football, Soccer, track and field, swimming, you name it, there are drugs. It's only the sports that crack down on drug use that fight with the immage problem, such as the Olympics and Tour de France.

How is this insightful? Cycling, and TdF in particular have a very long history of doping. Of 29 winners, only 2 didn't have (known) problems of doping one day or another (and that includes none the winners who won 5 times). In the 1960s, the racers of the TdF went even on strike to protest an anti-doping regulation (on the ground that people should be free to what they want with their body - which is what they could indeed do before the regulation).

Doping in cycling dates back from 19th century. When you see sanctions of only "3 month suspension" for doping, something is very wrong indeed.

Re:Drugs and ANY SPORT

[Anonymous Coward]

Perhaps I've missed it, but has there been a spike of athletes at the prime of their careers in other sports suddenly dropping dead of heart failure? Seven elite athletes, ages 16-35, dying in one year (eight if you count Marco Pantani, whose death, unlike those of the others, is linked to cocaine abuse) is a lot.

Re:Drugs and ANY SPORT

[ipfwadm]

Of 29 winners, only 2 didn't have (known) problems of doping one day or another (and that includes none the winners who won 5 times).

29 winners? There have been a lot more than 29 winner in the history of the tour. Where are you pulling this number from? And would you care to back up this assertion with a link?

In the 1960s, the racers of the TdF went even on strike to protest an anti-doping regulation (on the ground that people should be free to what they want with their body - which is what they could indeed do before the regulation).

Cyclists of the 60's getting pissed at an anti-doping regulation has absolutely ZERO relevance to any supposed doping that's happening today. You know that saying in the stock market, right? Past performance does not guarantee future results?

When you see sanctions of only "3 month suspension" for doping, something is very wrong indeed.

As opposed to Major League Baseball, which refuses to test players?

Re:Drugs and ANY SPORT

[Anonymous Coward]

29 winners? There have been a lot more than 29 winner in the history of the tour . Where are you pulling this number from? And would you care to back up this assertion with a link?

Actually, it is since 1945. Note that anti-doping control are done only since 1967:

Here are winners of TdF, who have been involved in doping one day.

Armstrong is counted in, because he failed to provide a medical justification for corticoid prior starting the Tour as mandated(he did provide one later). Corticoid is a doping product ; however it is tolerated if it is justified by medical reasons (for instance, asthma). For some reason, nowadays, half of the racers of the tour de France suffers from asthma, so this is a very minor sin for Armstrong. Anyway: Jan Ullrich was positive to amphetamins in 2002, Indurain was controlled positive to Salbutamol in 1994, Pantani had hematocrit level above an unbelievable 60% in 1993 and 1995 (also 52% in 1999 - must have a loosy doctor), Bjarne Riis had 56% hematocrit level in 1995 (and when he won in 1996, he was nickamed "Mister 60%" among over racers, but there was no official test presented -nowadays he is Team CSC director), Pedro Delgado used Probenecide in 1988 (positive on the TdF, but not excluded, and wo n it), Bernard Hinault refused once a control in 1982, Laurent Fignon took amphetamines in 1987 and 1989, and so on.

Cyclists of the 60's getting pissed at an anti-doping regulation has absolutely ZERO relevance to any supposed doping that's happening today. You know that sayi ng in the stock market, right? Past performance does not guarantee future result s?

Except that this illustrate a culture of doping, when did you estimate that doping stopped? And how did this occur, since the first racers who would not use dru gs were at a disadvantage?

"Culture" does help predict future results... for instance there was a doctor which was caught for practicing doping (because the doping failed and had bad results) in the 1960s, he became later head of the UCI (international cycling organi zation) - the same which now refuses to accept the "2 years exclusion on doping" law, promoted by the world anti-drug agency. So they stick to stupid "1 to 6 month exclusions" (or in the case of high hematocrit rate, to 15 days exclusions).

Nowadays, 3 top teams have all their racers with hematocrit levels of 47-48% (the limit is 50%, the natural male range is 40-50%). EPO is increasing the hematocrit level for 10 days, and can be detected for 3 days - draw your conclusions.

And there are many loosy checks, for instance, in 1997 TdF, UCI did not ever control the hematocrit level of the first and second (Jan Ullrich, Richard Virenque). Actually, I can't remember when a leader or top racer had been controlled positive during or after the race, and then been excluded or stripped of his title. I'm also terribly fed up, when I see racers admitting they have used drugs, while they never have been caught positive. (David Millar) ; apparently the police has incredibly much better results in detecting doping than UCI.

As opposed to Major League Baseball, which refuses to test players?

The effect of doping on performance is probably lower in Baseball than on a whole lengthy grueling TdF race - even in marathon they race only for 2-2.5 hours.

weight

[mattr]

I wonder how heavy those things are, and how much it will cost them timewise in the aggregate. Imagine nearly killing yourself on small things that add up to a win or lose at the end, but always know you have this dead weight. Or are the cyclists happy about it because it is better for the fans? Do they weigh everyone's gps units to make sure they are the same? I can see people shaving off the edges of the silicon..

Re:weight

[lessthanjakejohn]

Lance's bike is too light for the tour specs anyway, they have to add weight to make it conform. I imagine that all the necesary equipment can be stufffed inside the tubes of the frame or no? If not, the disadvantage is not in weight, but in aerodynamics

Re:weight

[Fenris Ulf]

Since riders are already adding weight to their bikes to meet the minimum weight rules, perhaps they'll just integrate one of these with each of the team bikes.

Re:weight

[jpellino]

Last year, Lance won by a very small margin - 61 seconds out of almost 84 hours.
That's 0.02% difference between him and 2nd place.
Someone calculated that that was a difference in mass of 54 pennies carried over the entire course.

Yikes.

Hope their hardware's tiny.

Re:weight

[John Allsup]

That sort of calculation is only really relevant when the rider is time trialling (i.e. going flat out over a known distance) in some form or another. Most of the race is tactical, using drafts from other riders, watching known threats and reacting to them, etc. In any case, there is a minimum bike weight, and bikes need to have lead weight added to them to make this weight. GPS receivers could be part of that added weight.

Re:weight

[hcdejong]

The weight is irrelevant, as long as every rider carries the same weight.

Buy one for yourself

[Anonymous Coward]

FRWD sells gps non real time versions of this.

Re:Buy one for yourself

[spaceyhackerlady]

A couple of other implementations, with various wrinkles: one that is assisted, and one that stands alone.

I've done some interesting plots by driving around town with a GPS receiver, a data cable and a laptop.

...laura

Yawn

[pdkrocul]

"These EGNOS receivers were put in the car of the team director following the cyclists" So really, they were monitoring the team cars, and not the riders. This sounds similar to the DARPA Grand Challenge, OnStar, etc.

European Galileo vs US GPS

[perlwannabe]

http://tinyurl.com/4u8sa

There are issues related to possible conflicts.

Re:European Galileo vs US GPS

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up. I know some smart ass is going to come along and say that's a goatse link but it is NOT!. Just letting you know. Anyway; mod parent UP UP UP!

Re:European Galileo vs US GPS

[Anonymous Coward]

What issues. The US switches off Galileo when they see fit. Galileo uses obsolete protocols and provides less-than-optimal precision so the US "security concerns" are satisfied. I really don't see any issuses.

Riiiders froooom SPAAAAACE!

[isomeme]

Man, if Lance beat riders from space, I have even more respect for him. Those guys have, like, photon torpedos and shit on their bikes!

Re:Riiiders froooom SPAAAAACE!

[AndroidCat]

I thought maybe the Greys had entered a Riders From Space team. Instead it was about some LoJack systems for bicycles.

Le Tour Humaine

[Anonymous Coward]

Mechanic: "Alright Lance, lets go through the checklist before you start the time trial."

Mechanic: "Two pound carbon fiber frame?"
Lance: "Check."

M: "180 gram tires?"
L: "Check."

M: "150 gram Titanium cogset?"
L: "Check."

M: "5 pound GPS transmitter on your helmet?"
L: "Uuuugh! Cccheeeck!" (Falls over.)

extra weight?

[walmass]

Wired had a story about Lance Armstrong's equipment and how they consider shaving 2 ounces off the weight a major improvement. Why would a rider want to carry additional deadweight, even if it is a 2 ounce GPS?

Re:extra weight?

[perly-king-69]

On that (Alpe D'Huez) stage Armstrongs bike was 2grams less than the permitted UCI minimum weight of 6kg. Not a large amount, but they actually had to add weight to his bike.

Re:extra weight?

[Corf]

which they did by substituting the titanium bolts on some of his equipment with stainless steel instead. How's that for gram-counting? It's amazing the difference people think one or two extra grams saved will make on their riding.

On the flipside, every bit of rotating weight you shave off the wheels counts far more than relatively stationary weight on the frame or componentry. Those wheels Armstrong rode up Alpe d'Huez with were around 1000g for the set; compare with the Ksyrium Equipes on my road bike at 1670g. Truly use-once-and-throw-away event-specific stuff... anyone over 200lbs gets on those, they fold up like pringles.

Re:extra weight?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually they weighed 5 different bikes of his for l'alpe d'huez because the first four were underweight. Dissappointing for Lance considering they tried so hard to make his bike at the exact minimum for that stage.

Re:extra weight?

[timpaton]

every bit of rotating weight you shave off the wheels counts far more than the relatively stationary weight on the frame or componentry

I suggest you do the maths and confirm this for yourself.

"Rotating mass" (mass moment of inertia) is only significant when accellerating - a massive flywheel will not make the bike any slower at constant speed in the flat. With the magnitudes of accelleration possible on a bike, and the size of the wheels, the difference in accelleration possible with a set of bling-bling (or throw-away mountain-stage race wheels) is finite but miniscule.

There's always a benefit in reducing weight. Whether it's in the rims or the frame, you still have to drag those grams up the hill. But from a purely analytical perspective, it's better to save 6 grams from the frame than 5 grams from the wheels - contrary to the conventional wisdom that rotating mass is worth several times as much as stationary mass.

Re:extra weight?

[jlp2097]

Actually the minimum weight is 6.8 kg. Just search google if you don't trust me :-)

Re:extra weight?

[bmrh]

You're right - rotating mass is only more significant when accellerating, but next time you're heading up Alp de Huez pay real careful attention to your speed on that hilly, windy, bumpy road and you'll notice that you're almost never at a "constant speed" and it's certainly not flat!

Re:extra weight?

[downunda_wookiee]

Actually, Lance's bike weighed 6.78 kg, which is 20 grams lighter than the UCI limit of 6.8 kg.

That's a pretty light bike!

.wook

Re:extra weight?

[DrMrLordX]

No, this is a pretty light bike.

Already done for NASCAR Drivers

[MojoRilla]

This is already done for NASCAR drivers. PitCommand uses differential GPS to track all 43 NASCAR Nextel Cup drivers every race. It also uses sensors to monitor throttle, break, and RPM.

Although it is a pay service, you can see a demo here (recent version of the Java plugin required).

Tracking race cars is more difficult than tracking bicycles due to speed. Tracking things at high speed is more difficult, because it is difficult to keep four satellites acquired. Also, race tracks have banking and grandstands, which obscures GPS signals.

How is this from space?

[gotpaint32]

When I first read the headline, I envisioned a geostat satellite taking a visual survey of the tour de france. But if you RTFA its nothing but a souped up european version of WAAS + GPS, and the trackers are not even attached to the riders bikes to boot. Kinda disappointing... but at the same time not much of a loss. Cycling isn't exactly a play by play sport. The espn highlight reels more than suffice to capture the excitement and perhaps some mayhem when someone crashes the peloton. Do you really want to see Lance climb a mountain for 2 hours.

As for drug use in the TdF, despite what many people say, the reason why drug use seems so prevalent in the TdF is because of how seriously the French race officials enforce their regulations, opposed to say major league baseball.

that's, uhm, swell, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

...you encounter many of the same issues with cyclists. Grandstands? Tour riders enter tunnels, through mountains... oh yeah, mountains themselves, a bit taller than said grandstands... and even in the ending stage going around the Champs-Elysees they pass under a section of the road for a good 5-10 seconds that cuts off all video feed of whatever's going on under there. They've also got live heart rate monitors feeding to the producers, who can throw those stats on the screen to show how hard the sprinters are going. Even the imaging of the course itself has come a long way in the last five years - the CG terrain and elevation maps are much cooler now than they were.

Yeah, I'm being sorta defensive here... but I'd have a lot more respect for NASCAR if it depended on the fitness as well as skill of the driver rather than how well their mechanics tweaked their cars.

I'd be more impressed

[infolib]

If they started using the helicopter cams for the sprints. They're always filming the sprints from ground-based cameras in front of the riders with ridiculous amounts of zoom. You have no chance to see who's in the lead or who's coming up fast or falling behind. Instead you have to rely on the commentator stuttering the name of whatever rider's in the lead. Hey, it's not radio, it's TV - I want to see it.

They've got the chopper hanging around all afternoon anyway, so what's the big deal?

Re:I'd be more impressed

[Anonymous Coward]

Helicopters at the finish line...there are serious safety issues! Think of all the crowds there at the finish, not to speak of the officials, support personnel, security, etc. It's not as easy as you think keeping a helo in one place, battling winds, trees, damn cameramen who only want their great shot...

Imagine an engine failure or other emergency over a built-up area, and you wind up fouling the sprint finish of an important stage; well, it would be great headlines, especially if you didn't kill anyone.

Re:I'd be more impressed

[Wiktor Kochanowski]

If they started using the helicopter cams for the sprints. They're always filming the sprints from ground-based cameras in front of the riders with ridiculous amounts of zoom. You have no chance to see who's in the lead or who's coming up fast or falling behind.

Aside from safety concerns, a heli directly in front of the sprinters would blow huge amount of wind in their direction, slowing them down and effectively changing the rules of the game.

It is possible to distinguish the riders in a sprint simply by their team jerseys. So the only issue is when more than one guy from the same team is going for it - a rather rare situation.

Re:I'd be more impressed

[titusjan]

They do film it from a helicopter and show it as one of the many replays (at least where I live). Indeed this is the most interesting shot and it doesn't get the attention it deserves.

Re:I'd be more impressed

[infolib]

As titusjan says in a reply below yours, they actually every now and then show the helo pics in replay. (I've seen that a few times, but forgot.) So, they don't seem to mind the safety. Besides, I don't want the pictures from the front - I want them from above.

As for distinguishing the riders - I'm quite capable of that. I just don't know which one is in the lead, which is quite interesting the last 200m of the stage.

Re:I'd be more impressed

[Anonymous Coward]

Helicopters has been used for a number of years to do sprint finish shots, and it's not like they fly at street level.. duh. A proficient cameraman, a zoom lens, a good pilot and handy radio operator can do smash work in timing flight to catch the last street kilometer in a spring that usually flies forward at 65-70km/h.

The four helis of the tour are used not only to film the sprints but to film the peloton at large, establish visual gap references, relay signals from the motorcycles and scare the odd horse (and cows, and birds, and make commisaire LeBlancs tie stick right out the back the way he likes it) . As well as filming any number of fine housings, odd tour greetings and steep mountains.

That you havent seen that is more a testament to poor TV rights than else.

btw, the most beautiful shot this year was in the pyrenees - the heli flying through a empty wooded valley apparently at loss where the cyclists are, but then smoothly panning to the left to a mountainside where there was a small dwindling road and a hairpin corner peeking out of the woods and the heli catching the front of the race thundering downhill (at about 85km/h) just as it enters the hairpin.
Thats live sports photography for you.

A reference card for lusers - filming the Tour is like shooting the Lord Of The Rings trilogy in one go, in the alps, and broadcasting it all live as well. No bluescreen, no bullet time, no instant replay, no arenas, no 30 second breaks for commercials. Just the bikes, the caravan and nature.

No GPS for Armstrong, please

[John Jorsett]

If Armstrong comes back for another try next year, he'd have to worry about giving some of the spectators his exact coordinates. Today: spit, tomorrow: precision guided munitions.

Re:No GPS for Armstrong, please

[geek]

There was a moment where a small pack of Germans tried to knock him off his bike. It was during one of the time trials.

What I'd like to know is, is this anti-American sentiment or is this done to most riders out there? In baseball players are harassed all the time, spit at, things thrown at them. Football the same. Basketball is a nightmare. This is all considered normal. What worries me is if this is out of the ordinary for cycling and specifically targeted at Lance. If it is then I'm glad Lance is sticking it to the fuckers.

Re:No GPS for Armstrong, please

[subtropolis]

Eddie Merckx, a Belgian who was trying for his sixth Tour win, was assaulted by a French fan, who ran out and punched him in the ribs. It may not have been the sole reason he didn't finish first that year but it certainly couldn't have been shrugged off.

A lot of the interference is accidental. The Alpe d'Huez was a nightmare this year. Afterwards, Lance said that he thought it was a mistake to hold a time trial there (or at least to open the mountain to so many people). That mountain is legendary for cyclists and it would really suck for something to go *really wrong*. He said today that, of course, he's scared in situations like that, though not just because of the memory of Eddie Merckx, but of some idiot not getting out of the way. Especially in a time trial. On a freaking mountain.

That being said, last year he hooked his handlebar on some women's purse and went down. Jan Ulrich (friend and opponent) slowed down the group of 4 or 5 they'd been riding with until he could catch up. He was so pissed about what had happened that he eventually overtook another group further ahead, only to slip out of his pedal clip (which pissed him off more), and finally catch the leader (Basso? Mayo?) and finish the stage first. Oh, and that was all on the way up another mountain - the stage ended at the summit.

I saw some amazing things this year again, but i'll never forget that, with my gf & i screaming and gnashing our teeth, tears welling up. We were watching the live feed, so we thought he was done for. An absolutely stupendous performance. Outrageous it was. Simply fucking brilliant.

Re:No GPS for Armstrong, please

[Anonymous Coward]

Bullshit. Ulrich was going for it, and it was Hamilton who slowed down the group (and especially Ulrich). I saw it live, I saw the replay, that's what happened. Also, it wasn't a woman's purse, it was a kid's carry bag.

Photards

[mfh]

> Man, if Lance beat riders from space, I have even more respect for him. Those guys have, like, photon torpedos and shit on their bikes!

He'll have to avoid the photards. They have photards -- the red-shirts who get stuck in the tube when trying to load... they get stuck to the enemy's field generators and cause brown-outs.

Lance pisses off French

[p51d007]

Don't you know that some of the idiots in France are trying to figure out a way to ban Lance from the tour race? They despise Americans anyway, don't you know that him winning "their" race 6 times in a row has to be ticking them off. LOL

Re:Lance pisses off French

[mvdwege]

Cite please?

It has been ages since a French cyclist dominated the tour like the non-French cyclists have been doing for the past editions. As far as I know, the French cycling public, like their like-minded counterparts in the rest of Europe having nothing but respect for Lance Armstrong (with the exception of some nagging doubt about him being dope-free, but that goes for every cyclist in the top-10 in the Tour).

Mart

Re:Lance pisses off French

[pdkrocul]

No, I didn't know this. Can you quote a source?

I do remember some commentary during earlier tours (sorry, I can't quote) saying that the French media was upset with Armstrong because he didn't spend much time doing interviews. But, I think that has changed in recent years.

Do all French citizens despise Americans, or is it just the subset labeled "idiots"?

Re:Lance pisses off French

[eurostar]

> Do all French citizens despise Americans

of course not, do all American citizens despise the French ?

The French only have problems with a very minor non-representative subset of Americans, the ones in the white house.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[bwy]

Lance has said many times he loves the Tour de France and he loves France, and he even learned to speak French. Most of the French respect him, but there are always a few guys who won't.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

Take a look around Google News for Lance Armstrong and spitting. French and German fans...

Re:Lance pisses off French

[LittleLebowskiUrbanA]

This American only has a problem with French people that were spitting on Lance Armstrong.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[Sique]

Oh... the german fans were also spitting on Jens Voigt, who is german too... So I would say the antipathies are quite evenly distributed.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[Anonymous Coward]

This American only has a problem with French people that were spitting on Lance Armstrong.

Is it worse than a Belgian being assaulted by one French people, being punched in the kindney, having a double fracture and tremendous pain in his back, and finishing only second of the tour de France, despite falling several time due to pain? I'm talking about the attempt of a 6th victory of Eddy Merckx.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[Anonymous Coward]

Pal, think of it this way, sports fans are sports fans. Some folks who watch football get pissed off when their team loses, like those obnixous English fans. It is understanble that French and German cycling fans get riled when their favorites aren't doing so well, like Big Jan Ullrich.

Plus, when Eddy Merckx was racing in the Tour to try to get the Maillot Jaune for the 6th time(?), he was punched in the kidneys by an obnoxious and derrianged French cycling fan/pschyopath.

I think the true Lance-haters out there are only a handful compared to the rest of the crowd, not to mention the fact that they're not all French.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[Yokaze]

To cite l'Equipe, the magazine for the Tour de France: LE TRIOMPHE DU ROI. Translation: The Triumph of the King.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[spagnitz]

Please drop these ridiculous insults regarding the French, as a former amateur road racer who has avidly followed the TDF for many years I can say that I have nothing but respect for the TDF organizers. This press reporting that the TDF is stacked against Armstrong is total BS from the sports journalists (whom IMO are the rejects from any sort of serious reporting) .

Re:Lance pisses off French

[spagnitz]

Where was it reported that it was the French spitting on Armstrong? The tour fans come from US, France, Belgium, Switzerland, Spain, Portugal, Netherlands, Columbia, Brazil, Australia, Italy, UK... Why do you assume it is French fans?

Re:Lance pisses off French

[spagnitz]

Merckx was the best ever IMO, his record speaks volumes

Re:Lance pisses off French

[Simple-Simmian]

IT was German T_Mobile fans doing the spitting. Voigt who I saw interviewed on that leg was disgusted in them. He call them crazy persons.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[Sique]

You are just supporting my point. The spitting was not so much about nationality as about Not-Being-Jan-Ullrich-Of-T-Mobile. Not that Jan Ullrich himself is to blame, it was more the way german media was stylizing this year's Tour as the big battle between Jan Ullrich and Lance Armstrong. So when this battle was not happening as expected until the last week, some people felt they should get crazy against anyone who seem to do better than Mr Ullrich in the Tour.

Re:Lance pisses off French

[CmdrGravy]

That's crap and reflects much more on your attitude than it does on the attitude of any Frenchman.

Favorite champion?

[crashnbur]

What do you mean "favorite champion"? THERE CAN ONLY BE ONE!

HUGE OPPORTUNITY

[Anonymous Coward]

1. equip tour de france riders with GPS receivers
2. post to webpage for real time updates
3. Link webpage to online casino
4. Profit!!!

OK I'll reply not mod flamebait

[panurge]

The controversy surrounds the extent to which the team is devoted to making Armstrong the winner, i.e. only one of them is really in the competition. It's exactly the same controversy as in F1 with Schumacher's teammates being instructed to let him past even if they could win.

The proportion of xenophobic idiots, I imagine, is about the same in most countries.

Re:OK I'll reply not mod flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

Umm are you sure about that? THE USPS placed 1st, 6th, and 9th.. Very respectable. As a team they finished second..

Re:OK I'll reply not mod flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

That is what the team is hired to do. You don't understand this type of racing it appears.

Re:OK I'll reply not mod flamebait

[ipfwadm]

Umm are you sure about that?

Armstrong is the leader, yes. There is no controversy about it, despite what the post you are replying to said. All teams are set up like that. Kloden came in 2nd, ahead of his teammate Ullrich (the team leader), who came in 4th. Kloden was still riding for Ullrich, even to the end. Read Armstrong's book "It's Not About the Bike"; he describes the team setup pretty well. Or look online.

THE USPS placed 1st, 6th, and 9th.. Very respectable.

True. A lot of that has to do with the fact that they have some good climbers on the team, and their job is to tow Lance in their slipstream to the top of the climbs so that he can "rest" on the way up. As such, they place pretty well too, being at the front of the pack leading out Armstrong. Obviously Armstrong is a good climber on his own (evidenced by L'Alpe d'Huez), but without a team he'd be nowhere. Cycling, far more than most people realize, is a team sport.

Re:OK I'll reply not mod flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

So on a team where you get 1st, 6th, and 9th place youre saying the following is true..

only one of them is really in the competition.

Now are they all trying to help Lance, yes but thats hardly different than any other team..

Re:OK I'll reply not mod flamebait

[ipfwadm]

So on a team where you get 1st, 6th, and 9th place youre saying the following is true..

Yes, I am. The place they finish is irrelevant to them being "in the competition". They are racing to help Lance win, as opposed to racing to win. Therefore they are not in the competition to win.

Sometimes, if someone on a team is doing better than the team's leader, the team will ride for that person instead of the leader. But nowadays there is often wording in a team leader's contract that says that no matter how poorly he's doing, the team will ride for him. Again, look at Ullrich and Kloden. Kloden was doing better, but was still riding for Ullrich.

Re:OK I'll reply not mod flamebait

[Anonymous Coward]

So is this, as the OP is saying, some sort of controversy? If most teams are doing this whats the big deal and how does it somewhat mark a controversy in this sport..

Re:OK I'll reply not mod flamebait

[ipfwadm]

So is this, as the OP is saying, some sort of controversy? If most teams are doing this whats the big deal and how does it somewhat mark a controversy in this sport..

No, I've never heard of any controversy regarding it. Like you said, every team does it. There's just no other way to win a race that difficult -- to have any hope of winning, you need the undivided support of your team. And if everybody on the team is racing for themselves, that's not much support.

The only controversy I heard was Americans complaining that the tour organizers were attempting to make the race harder for Lance to win with a couple changes to the race this year. Most notably:

• The rules for the team time trial were changed so that the 2nd place team could lose a maximum of 10 seconds, the 3rd place team a maximum of 20 seconds, etc. The old rule was that if you finished 3 minutes back and that was second place, you lost 3 minutes. Sure, this was obviously directed towards Lance, because he has hands-down the best team time trialing team in the race. Most people who aren't blinded by Lance fanboy-ism realize that it's a good rule, however. If a guy has a bad time-trialing team, why should that automatically preclude him from any chance to win the tour? This is what the old rule effectively did. And at the same time, the Postal Service is dropping sponsorship of the team after this season. What if they had done it before this season, and Lance had gotten onto a much weaker time-trialing team? All the Americans that are now bitching about the new rule would have been all in favor of the new rule. (I'm an American, and I support it for the sake of the race).
• A time trial was added up L'Alpe D'Huez. Lance has said in the past that he prefers to race mountain stages by following in the slipstream of his teammates most of the way up, then passing them at the top to grab the stage win. So, the tour organizers figured they'd make him do the entire climb by himself. With the benefit of hindsight, it just allowed him to solidify his lead. But there was certainly concern prior to the tour that he could lose some time. As far as controversy goes, I don't know that there was much except, again, from the Lance fan-boys. Apparently some people think he should've just been handed his 6th victory. Anyways, although the time trial on that particular mountain was unprecendented, mountain time trials are not. Sure, it was directed towards him (he's known to be an excellent flat time-trialist, so taking away a flat time trial could've cost him), but I don't see the big deal.
• Then of course there's the perennial doping witch-hunt. Somebody will always accuse the best rider of using drugs. The truth is, Lance has never failed a drug test. He was under intense investigation by the French authorities for years, and they never found anything. So give it up folks. Maybe he's just that good, and if you want to beat him, try harder, but don't claim he's cheating unless you've got some evidence more solid than "he kicked my ass".

You are a d*mb !

[Anonymous Coward]

Lance is a great champ' and eveybody knows that !
Ok, there are some suspicious that whisper the "EPO" acronym ... but unfortunatly most big sportsman have ever user performance "enhancer" that is part of the game :(

You know nothing about tour de france, and nothing about france, nothing about bicycle and nothing about one of the greatest chamion ever : Lance Amstrong. So please go and play with you tricycle kid.

For the fans...

[fhic]

... it's not about data, it's about the riders.

I don't want to see every bit of telemetry. I can't be there live, and sometimes I can't watch it on TV. (Work does tend to frown on that a bit.)

So I want to see words. I want to read a description of how the sweat is pouring off Ivan Basso as he wobbles up the last agonizing meters of Col d'Madeleine and looks over his shoulder at Virenque, a hundred meters behind. I couldn't care less whether his heart rate is 200 or his cadence is 86.5. I want to hear about Lance posing for photos and sipping champagne as he rides into Paris, not that he's doing it at 28.8 km/hr.

The folks at Velonews did a spectacular job this year describing the minute-by-minute action over every stage. I'm not going to link to it, because they'd probably have me killed if I got their server slashdotted now that it's all over, but if you care, you can find it. It's better than all the telemetry in the world.

Re:For the fans...

[Xconnect]

You may want to check out the official Tour de France's site next year (just do a search on Google for "Tour de France"). They have similar updates with pictorial representations of where the breakaway groups or peloton are. The updates are done by the minute too.

I remember them mentioning about Lance chatting up with Basso over the last stage and his USP team mates chasing down Simeoni and gesturing to him about his antics on Stage 16.

added weight?

[Gene303]

Aren't these guys trying to shave of every microgram from their gear and bikes? Wouldn't the added weight for these 10 riders be a competitive disadvantage? Why would this consent to this? I know lance would never do it.

Re:added weight?

[wk633]

There's a low limit weight on the bikes. 6.8 kg I think. Lance's bike was under that, and they had to add stuff to make it heavier. They can easily add a 100g or so device, and stay at the 6.8kg mark.

It's now not so much a matter of making the bike lighter, as what part to make lighter.

They (Postal) use special lightweight clothes for the climbing stages. No joke.

Not the French.

[Simple-Simmian]

Actually it was "Germans" not French persons. That is quoting Lance, and the Race Director who saw it up close. It was lougies not spit. They were tossing stuff as well. Pretty sad. I will never purchase and T_Mobile product after hearing this as these were T-Mobile supporters. "Drunk Germans" is one quote I heard made. The French love the underdog as many of us do and of course will root for them. This is their race, in their country. They can be proud to host the biggest and best cycle race in the world. In every little town the people were out appaluding all the riders. Actually the French have a class act when it comes to le Tour de France. They were not spitting on riders. It was the damm tourists.

Re:Not the French.

[nutshell42]

I will never purchase and T_Mobile product after hearing this as these were T-Mobile supporters.

Huh? Grow up. Do you really think T-Mobile endorsed, encouraged or even enticed (sorry that alliteration was too good to pass up =) them into doing that? We're talking about millions of people who were at the Tour it's to be expected that you find some idiots and assholes there (someone stood in the middle of the road during the last time trial).

If bin Laden used Vodafone wouldn't you use them anymore either? Or if some DoCoMo employee killed his wife? Is there any product you're still buying?

I'm German and I deeply respect Lance Armstrong and hope he'll do the Tour again next year (there're some rumours he'll choose the Giro instead) because regardless who wins next year if Armstrong didn't take part the victory would be worthless.

I really hope he stumbles sometime (doesn't mean he can't win in the end) because just as with Schuhmacher and Formula 1 (they're *so* similar =) it's gotten quite boring. A victory on the last day after a close Tour is simply much more exiting than someone winning every day

Re:Not the French.

[Anonymous Coward]

The French love the underdog as many of us do and of course will root for them.

...not sure. Raymond Poulidor "Eternal Second" (finished 2nd of the Tour 3 times [in 1974 at age 38], and 3rd of the Tour 5 times [in 1976 at age 40], never once wore Yellow Jersey) enjoyed greater popularity than Jacques Anquetil (who won 5 times the Tour).

Re:Not the French.

[Simple-Simmian]

T-mobile is off the list of products I will buy. I have no other way of disaproving of the fans that support that team. I don't respect the fans, so I can't respect the product. I will not support their team no matter how good the riders are.

I am from German ancestry was well, with a name like Hesse I would think so.

Re:Not the French.

[titusjan]

There is no such thing as a T-mobile fan. Cycling fans support the cyclists from their own country or have an individual favourite.

For the cyclists it is a different story. They don't care if a countryman is leading the race, if he is from another team they will put a lot of effort in trying to get him back. They might not win themselves after that but hope a teammate wins so they can share in the price money.

Jens Voigt was ordered by his captain to counter attack Andeas Kloeden (a fellow German but from another team) and did that succesfully. Some german fans didn't appreciate that. The sad thing is, they probably understood that every cyclist would have done the same thing as Jens Voigt but spat on him anyway.

Re:Not the French.

[titusjan]

Oops, I should have checked: Jens Voigt was counter attacking Jan Ulrich (also German from T-mobile).

Trans Water..

[Mir322]

(did you know for instance that tap water in many cities contains high traces of Oestrogen ? Does that make you a transexual ?)
No i wasn't aware. Do you have any sources? I'd be fascinated.
----

No

[Goonie]

You might consider that the second and fourth-place riders were German, and the guy (Jan Ullrich) who ultimately came fourth has come second to Lance three times in the past so it's probably not so much anti-American as anti the guy who keeps beating our guys.

The other thing you have to understand is that there were hundreds of thousands of people spectating on the time trial - the commentators were saying 900,000. The crowd looked dozens deep on both sides of the road, all the way up the 16-odd kilometre (10 mile) course. The likelihood of a few drunk morons within a crowd that big is remarkably high, and given how close the spectators get to the riders it's a credit to the spectators that the riders almost always get through unmolested. Still, I have to agree with Armstrong that a time trial up that mountain wasn't a particularly good idea by the organizers - if they were going to do it, there should have been barriers the whole way up the mountain.

Be that as it may, personally I'd be just as worried about accidental interference with riders as deliberate attacks. I dunno how it actually was on the road, but there was a moment in the last stage where they were cruising (and I mean really cruising...I could have sat in the peloton at the speed they were going) through the countryside just outside Paris. Armstrong was nearly speared by an flag on a long pole. An American flag.

Re:No

[subtropolis]

i think you're probably correct one way or another about the motivation on the time trial. That was pretty hairy. Some of the earlier riders were dodging trash and even a fucking camp chair! One of the US Postal riders (Landis?) actually shoved someone aside on his way up.

As to accidental interference, i saw some footage today from some of the earlier stages i missed. There was one point where some guy was way out on the roadway taking a photo and facing toward the direction of the race. As he went to move back toward the side, he turned around a bit, just in time to see a rider from about a foot away before he smacked in too him. The rider (who i think was on T-Mobile's team) had no chance, and went down hard. He was trying to sneak by him (the idiot really looked like he would have been happy to stand there all day) when the guy suddenly turned back. I hope someone in the crowd punched him in the head to be sure he'd been hurt enough.

the receiver is carried in the team car

[kaan]

The article says that the receiver was mounted in the team cars for 10 select riders, not physically attached to the riders themselves. On a time trial, each rider gets a follow vehicle to help with any mechanical issues or crashes, and the follow vehicles are usually very, very close to the rider (it looks like 10 to 15 feet). So any weight would be fine, since it'll be dragged around by a gasoline motor.

hmm...

[Corf]

...I'll state flat-out that I'm no good with maths, but I've ridden a few different wheelsets in my day, and it's pretty easy to tell the difference. It really depends on the event; aerodynamics definitely figure more than weight in a time trial, at least one where you're going fast enough for slipstream to come into play (unlike Alpe d'Huez). Those carbon disc & 5-spoke wheels are tank, relatively speaking.

Re:hmm...

[timpaton]

I've ridden a few different wheelsets in my day, and it's pretty easy to tell the difference.

Quite likely - but "feeling a difference" and "going faster" are not necessarily the same thing ;-)

A heavier rim will have more of a gyroscopic effect than a lighter one - and that will certainly be noticeable. At the same time, it will take _slightly_ more power to accelerate...but as I said, with the angular accelerations we're looking at, it won't be significantly different whether the mass is at the rim (big mass moment of inertia), in the hub (rotating, but with small MMI), or in the axle (not rotating at all).

Aerodynamics are another issue altogether...and that's nothing to do with weight. In fact, lots of popular deep-vee "aero" TT rims would be heavier (and have a higher MMI) than a less aerodynamic rim - but the aerodynamic benfits make up for the extra grams (and gram-metre-squareds).

talk about a....

[Anonymous Coward]

serious waste of taxpayer money.

Stupid fans

[Anonymous Coward]

The ones that run along side of the riders with flags are a real danger. Very crazy. Also running the ganutlet in the mountain time trials had to be a test of concentration for the top ten riders.

I was watching this AM (local time) and I didn't see that near skewering but I noticed 8 blue and yellow jerseys with AMD on the shoulders protecting Lance most of the time.

The tracking needs to be on the stupid fans that get in the race path.

The ride into Paris is not the race of the day it is the final Sprint at the end for the Green Jersey. Rarely does the Yellow Jersey attack on the last leg.

Mapping the Tour de France Riders from Space

[mrjacques]

Until I saw this story, I didn't even know that there _were_ Tour de France Riders from Space. In any case, I think it's a good thing they're being mapped.

More clarification

[ferret70]

Virenque was already across the line at 5:12 PM, a full 27 or so minutes ahead of Armstrong (Richard having left the gate at 4:31 and Lance having departed at 4:59). The movie makes it look like this was positioning of the two concurrently during the race , but it is only showing a comparison of Richard's and Lance's efforts on the course. Of course, Lance dusted him!

Lance is the 3rd most hated athlete in France.

[Anonymous Coward]

According to this Slate summary, the European press has printed pretty harsh things about Lance. The consensus seems to be that Lance is well respected for his achievements but not liked personally and much of it seems to be very sour grapes. This quote is typical:

...And in Switzerland, La Tribune de Geneve scorned Armstrong as haughty and described the U.S Postal Service team's effort as "a typically American business that scorns humanity." It went on to chide the cancer survivor: "Mankind is not fond of those who gorge themselves on success without suffering and without showing compassion for their fellows."

I guess testicular cancer wasn't enough suffering to qualify Lance for 6 Tour de France championships. Two years ago Lance allowed Basso to win a stage because Basso's mother had died of cancer. And from all I've seen, Lance never fails to thank his team in interviews and often buys them gifts. Lance has his own foundation to raise money for cancer research and to help victims. It's just playa hatin'.

Re:Lance is the 3rd most hated athlete in France.

[Anonymous Coward]

According to this Slate summary, the European press has printed pretty harsh things about Lance. The consensus seems to be that Lance is well respected for his achievements but not liked personally and much of it seems to be very sour grapes.

Well your Slate's article resorts to unjustified hypothesis saying that Lance Armstrong nationality maybe be a factor, while completly missing the fact that the most disliked sportsman is French, and the third most disliked is German.

The truth is, the case is exactly like for Schumacher, the style "I am the best and I am a total winner" is culturally accepted in US (and even praised: look American movies), but not in Europe: hence, Lance Armstrong waving 6 fingers to say "it's my sixth win!" (meaning "I am the BEST of the GALAXY of ALL TIMES, crushing all other previous racers") is not welcomed.

Slate also failed to mention that the one of the most popular French athlete (and most popular in his time) was Raymond Poulidor "Eternal Second" who never managed to win a TdF, especially when he raced at the time of Jacques Anquetil (who won 5 times).

Winning and being popular are different things in Europe.

I still agree that Lance Armstrong may be nice and all, but is not presented in a favorable light by European press. The truth is that no racer is presented objectively. As for suffering, the leader of the TdF may suffer less than others, I don't know.