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Microsoft Outsourcing High-Level Work
philistine writes "The Seattle Times reports
A Seattle labor group said it has new evidence that Microsoft is shifting high-level work to foreign contractors, including work on the next version of Windows. The evidence is a cache of Microsoft contracts with Indian technology vendors that were leaked to the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, an AFL-CIO affiliate that has focused on outsourcing in its effort to organize tech workers."
A Seattle labor group said it has new evidence that Microsoft is shifting high-level work to foreign contractors, including work on the next version of Windows. The evidence is a cache of Microsoft contracts with Indian technology vendors that were leaked to the Washington Alliance of Technology Workers, an AFL-CIO affiliate that has focused on outsourcing in its effort to organize tech workers."
Linux will be free off all those foreign contributions.
Does this mean that MS Windows is now a security threat threat too? Because afterall, we could now have terrorists embedding code into Windows that is malicious!
For all I know the Indians might be better programmers but working on the law of averages the problem solving ability of an indivdual is probably independant of their location. So it really is about the cold, hard dollars. The thing is capitalism isn't any more free than communism. What good is being able to criticise your government when there is only a choice of two parties?
If you took Joe Six-pack and actually took the time to educate him on the fact that he can't mess with the chips in *HIS* playstation 2 legally because of some weird-ass law called the DCMA then I bet he'd see the onimous tone to it straight away..
Out sourcing is an evil plain and simple. Why should a company's profit be at the expense of an individuals welfare? Who has the most votes after all.. the individual or the company? Government should serve you and me before the MD
Simon
Are they outsourcing high-level work, or work on Windoze?
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
Are these new jobs, or taking away from current jobs in the states? Maybe this will speed development up on Longhorn... or maybe not..
Boxing Equipment Reviews
I was going to say something about the government taking issue with Microsoft outsourcing Windows code to non-Americans... how it might make it possible to introduce dangerous code, backdoors, security exceptions and all sorts of potential disasters.... ...and then I realized, well, how much worse could it be?
Are these outsourced workers going to be working on the same Windows code that Microsoft claimed would be a national security risk if it was ever exposed? Anyone else remember that?
Dear slashdot editors, please remove this color scheme.
Thank you.
That's what I was thinking about. Really interesting to see how Microsoft responds to that question, here's one of their previous respond http://www.securityfocus.com/news/191
Here's what I don't get. If you take the URL for this article, replace it. with games. you get the games color scheme.
/. could be.
In other words, all that matters is slashdot.org, the "section" only adds the shitty color scheme.
So why not let users pick a scheme they like in user prefs? Personally I'd rather never see the games. or it. again, though it. is particularly crap-tastic, I honestly thought the games. was as ugly as
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
A Seattle labor group said it has new evidence that Microsoft is shifting high-level work to foreign contractors
That's hardly surprising really, they're a multinational corporation, and everyone's foreigh to someone.
I donb't begrudge Slashdot working up a bit of controversy for ad hits, but stirring up racism is immoral imho.
The key to not getting bumped as a tech wage slave by outsourced labor is to not just learn a TECHNOLOGY, but learn a BUSINESS alongside it. Then your value will lie in the combination of business knowledge and tech know-how that you have. The kind of work value that this results in is not nearly so easily exported.
I want to outsource my liver functions to India, that way I could drink all day and all night and my own liver would be fine.
How to Download YouTube Videos
It's bad for MSFT et all to outsource programming work to cheaper labor markets.
It's good for corporations to expect Open Source zealots to write it all for free.
Cheap software takes away more jobs than free software?
I thought the whole point of the OS movement was to make the programmer completely irrelevant.
I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
I'll say it until people understand it or refute it: you cannot be both for free trade and against outsourcing. They are the same thing. There is no difference between importing computer hardware and importing software services (outsourcing) except in the particular sector affected.
Perhaps the ranters should send back all their hardware to Taiwan, Hong Kong, China, Malaysia, etc. and buy American!!
Imposing Libertarian views on everyone online since 1992.
hmm... that is interesting. if you just drop the "it." from the front, the color scheme disappears and you get the normal slashdot colors.
Casual Games/Downloads
Politicus
You know, the strangest thing that struck me about outsourcing is that a lot of the companies doing so are doing well BEFORE outsourcing. They do so in order to save money and increase profits. In turn, that translates to "growth" and better eyecandy for investors.
Not a lot of these companies are hurting for cash. They outsource for more money. I wonder if people would support such companies if they knew where the workers were from. I mean sure, the consumer saves a buck or so because of the cheaper labor...but will they be willing to pay that extra buck knowing they're supporting a competing but an absolutely "Made in the (insert country here)" product?
Here's the god awful color again. How tough it this to change? Who decided on this horrible, horrible, horrible color scheme?
Color scheme decisions got outsourced.
The evidence is a cache of Microsoft contracts with Indian technology vendors
Isn't it strange how Slashdot's outsourcing stories are always about India and China?
They're never talking about shocking evidence of contracts with e.g. Canadian or Irish technology vendors.
Not that I'm suggesting that this is barely veiled racism. You can get modded down for being honest about that.
The real Ralph Yarro posts as Anonymous Coward. Anyone else is an impostor.
Simply change your DNS records to resolve it.slashdot, games.slashdot, or whatever colour (yes, I'm British) scheme you don't like, and Robert's your proverbial uncle...
Personally, I've done so, except of apple.slashdot, which I quite like...
Best quote:
"Review is boring and time consuming, and it's hard," said Steve Lipner, manager of Microsoft's security response center. "Simply putting the source code out there and telling folks 'here it is' doesn't provide any assurance or degree of likelihood that the review will occur."
And if somethings hard, we just shouldn't do it, right? And "boring"! Like testing software is ever "fun".
So, MS's suggestion seems to be that, since it's kinda tough and not super fun to look through source code for problems, we just shouldn't bother having the source available at all. Great logic!
Casual Games/Downloads
It's a pattern that repeats itself every time the "editors" dick around with the fucking productions servers like this was still their little blog running on a 486 under their desks instead of a "serious" site that sells subscriptions and advertising and is supposed to make money for a company.
Well, at least now they can't use the "you're more than welcome to ask for your money back" witty retort because some people (like you) actually pay for it. Hey, if anything you do have the right to complain - except that there is nowhere to do that. So I think you'll be modded down "offtopic" (or better yet, overrated) and put in one of their blacklists.
Welcome to Slashdot!
Would this be the same Microsoft who receives military and political protection from the US Government. The one who's US employees pay taxes, and whose family members serve in the military?
:-)
Microsoft has no written obligation to hire only American workers, I'll agree. But there is a certain "nationalism" which one expects a company to have.
As for Texas, I can't imagine anyone voluntarily moving to Texas being labelled as "smart."
Is it just my observation, or are there way too many stupid people in the world?
saying-good-bye-to-the-middle-class dept.
Forget the many economist that make arguments like this one, stating that outsourcing will ultimately benefit consumers...
Forget government data that downplays the significance of offshore work...
Forget the fact that companies like Microsoft sell millions of dollars worth of software to foreign countries around the world...
...and just jump to the conclusion that the entire US middle class is doomed.
Nice!
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
You know that the entire system is open-source, right? Why not fix it yourself. Make Slashtod XHTML 1.x compliant (DTD of your choice) while you're at it, eh? Thanks a bunch.
Actually, this wouldn't make such a bad project if I didn't work 50 hours a week... Maybe we should do this.
Unfortunately this is a byproduct of the Internet and a borderless world it created.
Is it painful in the meantime? Yes, I was laid off before, it sucks. But I found work again and started over - you can too.
Can it be stopped? Yes, but not through government regulation, protectionism or trade barriers - these will fail, just like internet censorship and halting file sharing.
Yes, unfortunately America can not stop the balancing of wealth around the globe. The US better do something quick, or soon people in 3rd world countries will be eating 2 meals a day and have shelter and clothes.
Remind me why outsourcing is bad? Global employment looks pretty good to me. Give the job to who can do it the best, at the lowest cost. Even if this means a few less Americans can afford their Lexus payments.
[I can picture a world without war, without hate. I can picture us attacking that world, because they'd never expect it]
- d00d did you hear the latest about M$?
- what?
- they're outsorcing most of their development work to Inidia d00d!!
- really???
- no shiet. I saw it on Slashdot. Windoze is being written in India and like
.NOT and Yukon and stuff!!
- OLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
Selective quoting and intentionally misleading write-ups. FUD, plain and simple. You whine when Microsoft does it to you, but you have no problem whatsoever in doing it to them.What Microsoft, and all these goat cheese for brain companies dont realize is, once most high paying jobs move out of US, who is going to buy their overprice crud? Do they see Chinese or Indians lining up to spend 300+ dollars to buy Office?
It might have Quality but I'll never be able to understand the error dialogs when they pop up.
Post: Sigged, for your pleasure.
Actually it can be. Here are some of the advantages:
- Lower Cost of Living, I bought a house in Austin for $100k
- More space
- Nobody looks strange at you when you date your sister or cousin
- You can date your farm animals
- With such a low average intelligence, you are much smarter than anyone else.
But there is one disadvantage: You are in Texas.Fight Spammers!
India is a country of 1bn people. If Microsoft wants equal access to the Indian market, it seems only fair that they have proportional numbers of developers in India, which means that you would expect 3x as many Microsoft developers in India than in the US.
Microsoft's outsourcing moves not only involve cutting costs, they also involve politics. Both China and India have very high rates of software piracy and as companies like Microsoft demand greater protection of intellectual property, they run the risk of pushing said countries into free open source software. If OSS becomes the standard in India or China, then Microsoft loses Windows and Office sales forever.
So in an effort to prevent the spread of OSS, Microsoft is investing millions of dollars into a research center in China and efforts in India. This makes big time political points too, which makes it less likely that the governments in either country will lock Microsoft out of the game with OSS. It's still risky though, as both India and China have made moves to encourage local software development on Linux.
Right now I'm betting that MS will eventually put a good portion of development in China where the labor costs are even less than India and it is politically more stable. But that's just a wild guess. In any case, low and mid level coders' days are numbered at MS.
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
HAHAHAHHAAAHAHAAHAH!
whew. "highest skilled work . . . such as software development" that's a good one.
-ninjaneer
And that's different from the current Windows version...how?
"But there is a certain "nationalism" which one expects a company to have."
Typed the geek using his computer built in and/or have components made in Taiwan, China, Malaysia, etc.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
Microsoft is still growing. They're hiring more workers here in the US. According to this article, they're also hiring people in India (and other places as well, I'd assume). They've given programming jobs to the companies in India.
But they're still hiring programmers here, as well. So what's the problem? Should Microsoft hire only US workers? Should they only be allowed to grow here?
What I don't see here is Microsoft getting rid of their US workforce to hire in India. And (according to Microsoft's statements) most of the core work, and all the "IP development" is based here. And Microsoft is hiring more US workers as well.
In summary, this really doesn't appear to be a Big Deal. Now, 3Com dumping their product operation to pretty much outsource all their product development to Huawei? That's significant. But 3Com is just a shell of it's former self, so nobody really paid attention to that. When Linux starts being spread around the world, then I'll worry about globali...
(What? You say Linux isn't a US company? It's a global project already? Developed by volunteers? Oops...)
Um, never mind that last point!
-- Josh Turiel
"2. Do not eat iPod Shuffle."
Those Indian cats really know how to program!
No wonder why America continues to fall behind; Indian cats can program, American cats continue to crap in boxes and sleep all day.
Where does the school board find them and why do they keep sending them to ME?
The government, with its litigation, regulation, and taxation, has obviously made it hideously expensive to hire American workers, so the companies are outsourcing to India.
What is obvious to you, O Chanter Of The Conventional Line, is not quite so obvious to some of the rest of us. I bought this line for a long time, and there are elements of truth to it, but it misses the main point entirely. The overriding reason the companies are outsourcing is simply to take advantage of people who live in conditions of deprivation.
Where are you living? In the good old USA, tax breaks don't require anything so mundane as economic justification. Tax cuts first, last, and always! And to deserve a tax break, you don't need to aid the economy. You just need to send checks to the correct party.
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
"Here's the god awful color again. How tough it this to change?"
It's easy. From the Slashdot login page, look to your left. You'll see your username. Click on 'preferences' right under it. Then click on the 'Homepage' tab. Just under the timezone bit, there's a checkbox next to 'light'. Click that. Slashdot will look barren at first, but it's easy to get used to. No more ugly color schemes and you get a less complex page.
Simple. Now quitcherbitchen. The color scheme isn't that bad. It aint great, but it's not +4 insightful.
"Derp de derp."
Outsourcing is a problem only because we have a slavery system. Our livelihood depends on working for others so we can pay our taxes. The reason that we have to work for others is that 99% of people have been deprived of an inheritance in the wealth of the land. Income property is owned by a few and the state. The others are slaves. Artists, programmers and inventors depend on their work to make a living. Can we blame them? We all depend on our labor because we are all slaves. So now we are swimming in a ocean of laws and rules that take away our remaining liberties, one by one.
Let's face it, if you cannot put a fence around it or put chains on it, it does not belong to you. Makes no difference whether it is ideas, writings, software, music or what have you. Once you've released it, like the air, it belongs to nobody and everybody.
Intellectual property owners (such as Microsoft and the music industry) will fight freedom with everything they've got. Right now they have two formidable weapons: IP laws and powerful police states to enforce them. But those who yearn to be free also have a formidable weapon, the internet.
The internet and other communication technologies (e.g., file sharing systems) are the first major kinks in the armor of a sick system. As technology progresses, the system will eventually collapse. What will happen to a slave-based economy when robots and advanced artificial intelligences replace everybody, i. e., when human labor, knowledge and expertise become worthless? It will be orders of magnitude worse than outsourcing.
And don't think for a minute this won't happen in your lifetime. The internet is the latest giant leap in human communication. Before that came mass telecommunication technologies and before that was the movable press. If history is any indication, we can expect a giant leap in technological progress and scientific knowledge. In fact, it is happening before our very eyes.
We should all demand a system where everybody is guaranteed income property, a piece of the pie, an estate if you will. There is plenty for everybody.
Communism confiscates all property and enslaves everybody. Capitalism gives property to a few and enslaves the rest. It's sad. The land should not be divided for a price. It should be an inheritance for us and our children and their children. It's the only way to guarantee freedom and a truly free market in a world where human labor is about to go the way of the dinosaurs. Demand liberty! Nothing less.
How about we not worry about color schemes and we start worrying about how lame it is that they have put EVERYTHING in "IT". I was much happier when they used more intelligent sections.
I haven't figured out why they thought Slashdot needed an "IT" category in the first place. Let's think this through... this is Slashdot, right? There's nothing on here that isn't IT-related! Even the Science articles usually have an IT slant.
"IT" is clearly a "default" category. In that case, call it "Main-2" or something. Otherwise, it just looks silly. Or should I say, IT just looks silly. Whatever, IT is driving me nuts. And I just paid up my subscription... I do have a right to bi^H^Hcomplain.
Did you notice that they saved the halfway-decent color scheme for the new Linux section?
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
This is notable not because it went to India. That's where everything is going these days, which is good for them. They are really booming... And they need it too.
What is notable is that Microsoft is doing the exact thing that people touting MS have been saying about open source.
I want those people to eat their words now. What will they say is better about MS over open source solutions now? That we can't see their source code?
I'a a 25-year veteran of working as a software developer as both a permie and a consultant.
I know the politically-correct policy is to consider that programmers from countries such as India do reasonable work, but my experience is that it is just not true. I keep finding that the resultant source-code from outsourcing is abysmal.
I've worked on projects for several different companies where programming has been outsourced to India and Russia, and it has always cost way more money to put it right than outsourcing the project has saved.
I expect Microsoft will also find this out the hard way, and to the end-users disadvantage.
I hope they aren't going to hire offshore programmers. Wasn't there an article on Slashdot just the other day about how some terrorist rogue programmer might slip something awful into Linux and destroy the civilized world? The article said that the US government shouldn't use open source because of this bogus reason.
Seems to me that the government using proprietary code that has been out sourced would be an even greater risk.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
happen to a slave-based economy when robots and advanced artificial intelligences replace everybody, i. e., when human labor, knowledge and expertise become worthless? It will be orders of magnitude worse than outsourcing.
Then it will be time for the great robot war!
D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
That's not what he's getting at, and your suggestion that it is is unreasonable.
Ignoring the history of Microsoft's product security at large the simple point he makes is a good one: opening the source for inspection is not the same as the source actually being inspected. In fact it takes some time and skill to inspect source for vulnerabilities, and it's a distinctly unglamourous job. And that's why the "it's open source, it must be secure" mantra rings plenty hollow -- very few people are interested enough to take the time.
Or did you never have to compile a new version of Apache, OpenSSH or OpenSSL to fix a security problem?
Eh, what was it, 12, 14 years ago? Downsizing was all the rage and cause of much spillage of ink and political discussion. Yeah, I think Bush the elder was king of the 'downsizing' economy, and Bush the younger is king of the 'oursourcing' economy. Lets see, before then it was 'automation', and going way back, hah, 'industrialization'. Yeah, all those steam engines were putting laborers out of work!
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
My experience is that it does not matter to where you outsource it. Any job outsourced to another company can result in bad quality code.
Remember that every company will tell you how good the quality of their programmers is, how good their methodology is, etc. But in the end they just allocate a bunch of programmers to your job, and every time a new (= always more important) job comes in, the best people are moved to there and a new load of trainees continues on your work.
This can happen when you outsource to India, but it may just as well happen when you outsource to a reputable company in your own country.
http://www.vasoftware.com/gateway/offshore21st.ph
John Kerry is a Joke!
William S. Burroughs' writing really went downhill after he died.
Heaven forbid that society asks you to pony up a fraction of your income to help support the society who's benefits have helped you achieve the standard of living you now enjoy.
Hopelessly pedantic since 1963.
Believe it or now, majority of millionaires in US are first generation millionaires. The reason being is that the children of millionaires tend to be spoiled and are more likely to blow their money away.
How about have the government provide a guaranteed income property, why don't you stop pissing away your money on stupid crap and use the money saved to buy your income property? Do you really want to government to chose your investment for you since they did such a great job with Social Security?
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
This is another classic case of slashdotters flip floping on their values. Most slashdotters want MS to crash and burn, yet now they are arguing that MS shoudn't outsource because it's bad for it.
1f u c4n r34d th1s u r34lly n33d t0 g37 l41d
When I was a kid they told me that we study history so that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past. So lets look at the past shall we?
What is the condition of the US auto industry today? Did they not outsource production? Do you think the Big Three gave the same reassurances that M$ and all the other companies are making? Shouldn't be to hard to find someone with that information. Do you think its easy to get a job with GM, Ford or Chrysler? Sorry, its not exactly easy even if you've got a family member thats been working with the company for 30 years. Unless you consider a lottery for who gets to put their family member on the list easy.
How about getting a nice job with a local company that does outsourced work down the street from a big three plant? Sorry, those are almost gone too..gone to where might you ask? Well, its not India but its close enough.
If you're going to complain about outsourcing, pay attention to it all across the board. Oh, you like your jetta? You don't like outsourcing to India? Perhaps you should reconsider your argument. I drive an american vehicle and it makes me angry that so much of it is manufactured overseas. But the big boys need their profit margin.
Oh, P.S. Don't start sputtering crap about how the prices go down (or stay down) from overseas manufacturing. The only thing that changes by shipping overseas is the profit margin for the folks on top.
My employer has offices in several Indian cities. Not only is our high level work going over there, but the company actually brings them here on L-1 visas, pays them $10/hr to do our $70k/yr jobs, forces us to train them, and will not under any circumstances hire anyone in the US to fill vacancies before exhausting every L-1 or H1-B loophole they can find - and if they DO hire an American, it's a temp job w/o bennies or vacation or anything. Here's the kicker - if they end up contracting an American, that person is always someone of Indian descent that can speak the language - so they can communicate with all of the L-1 folks. Nice, eh?
To further increase profitability, why not offshore their highest paid employees, Steve and Bill?
First, let me say I've suggested offshoring highly paid executive jobs before. Also I do enjoy bashing Microsoft, and I have the troll points to prove it, but this is one thing I can't fault these two really rich guys for. Compared to CxOs of other large American companies, their salaries are paltry. The real reason their jobs should be outsourced is because they want to replace the workforce that made the company what it is today (while enjoying profit margins around 80%) to *save money*. Now, I'll get nailed by both sides. :)
Companies do not, have not and never will outsource because it results in good quality work. That's merely a lie to placate their customers. They outsource because it cuts costs and lower costs means higher stock price. Now given that most company directors have bonuses tied to rises in stock price, and the damage the outsourcing causes won't become apparent for a few years; it's pretty obvious why outsourcing is occuring.
Our experience was exactly the same. In the end, we decided to try to hire the better performing individuals (if legally and contractually possible), and mostly dump the indian companies. Since a few years we are mostly using hungarian and polish contractors, in-house.
Sigged!
It seems to be quite good.
What you are advocating is that we become a subsistence farmers society, or what, is our plot of land going to feed us in autopilot mode or what?
I guess you are also a proponent of rigid population control, in the style of one child only policy in China, since otherwise your "inheritance" will srhink with each new generation of new forced farmers.
We, specialy in developped countries, live in an era when we are living longer, healtier (smokers, you suck) lifes, of food overabundance (in most developed countries obesity is becoming the #1 killer, followed by car accidents and perhaps AIDS, nothing to do with bad nourishment).
We can choses what we want to do for a living (horror of horrors, we have to work to obtain life necesities. Point us out to your golden age when this did not happen).
We can elect wo lead our societies (if you and your ilk chose Bush, Kerry or whoever and can't be arsed to even vote or get politically active, well, big duh for you)..
But somehow, in your dope induced haze we are slaves and the machines are out to get us.
Gimme somme of that herb please! Gimme some!
IANAL but write like a drunk one.