Classroom Bullies On The Internet

peter303 writes "Oldtimers are familiar with sociopaths in usenet newsgroups and chat rooms. The NY Times has an article about grade school kids who bully on the Internet. These include message bombing and slanderous web pages. The web allows one to extend bad manners from real life."

Comments

Different From The Old Days

[ackthpt]

Size doesn't matter on the internet. Physical bulk is only good for slamming a fist down on the keyboard in frustration. Numbers help, if you're trying to spam or text message someone (but only those clever enough can get away with it with anonymity. If you're the skinny little runt or the ugly kid always picked on, the internet can even the odds in harrassing back. Best not to pick fights with girls, either, as they fight meaner than boys.

Haven't seen it yet, but will probably at some point, the following bumpersticker phrase:

my k1d 0wns y0ur k1d'5 c0mput3r

Re:Different From The Old Days

[eln]

I do believe you'd get your ass kicked for having a bumper sticker like that.

So is this the reason why people seem to be so much more rude on the Internet? Is it geeks getting out their pent-up aggression from being picked on all the time in the real world? Is it people taking their anger at that asshole who cut them off on the way to work out on the faceless masses on the Internet?

Besides, if you believe that size doesn't matter on the Internet, you clearly haven't been getting the same kind of email I've been getting.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[Mr. Bad Example]

> So is this the reason why people seem to be so much more rude on the Internet?

I think it's mostly that people don't have to deal with real-world consequences. You can say things in text to people that would get your face beaten in if you said them in person.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[Anonymous Coward]

So is this the reason why people seem to be so much more rude on the Internet? Is it geeks getting out their pent-up aggression from being picked on all the time in the real world? Is it people taking their anger at that asshole who cut them off on the way to work out on the faceless masses on the Internet?

Gee, fucktard, ya think so?

(Hmmm, I did check the Post Anonymously box, right?)

Re:Different From The Old Days

[Trigun]

Oh fuck off. Like that happens. If I ever run into you on the street, I'm going to make you eat those words.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[ackthpt]

Is it geeks getting out their pent-up aggression from being picked on all the time in the real world?

This reminds me of my early mudding days, you eventually learned there was safety in numbers and banded with other players. I was pkilled and a friend was also harrassed by the same player, but because I told him about the meanie, he was prepared.

My nephew, years later, who was a blue belt in Tae Kwon Do and a reasonably bright lad, met with similar disappointments in Ultima Online. Nothing kills player enthusiasm for a game like pkillers who prey on newbies.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[shufler]

Who cares? I'm out to make a run of "my k1d 0wns y0ur k1d'5 c0mput3r" bumper stickers!

Re:Different From The Old Days

[bigbigbison]

So is this the reason why people seem to be so much more rude on the Internet?

I was going to make the joke about only a moron would ask such a stupid question, but I see people beat me to it.

However, there are a couple reasons why people can be rude on the internet. One is, as others have emtnioned, the anonymity. If you piss people off, you can just go somewhere else. And you can have fun annoying strangers.

That mainly applies to trolls. But another reaosn why flame wars erupts so easilly is that people are usually at a website or a chat room because of the topic more than the people. Therefore, people are generally interested in information and that mutual interest in technology, or whatever, is the reason they are on the same site, rather than friendship.

Finally, there is also the fact that a lot of people have poor communication skills and don't put their message across as well and because text is much more limited than face to face communication, subtlties are often lost.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[cellocgw]

I do believe you'd get your ass kicked for having a bumper sticker like that.
Maybe or maybe not. There are already bumper stickers that say "My kid beat up your honors student," or "As a matter of fact I DO own the whole damn road," or the ever-popular "Eat my shorts."

Re:Different From The Old Days

[ViolentGreen]

...and they can finally shed all the inhibitions and behave like the jerks they want to be (when pushed around), instead of the nice geeks they are.

I am going to have to disagree here. I believe its more along the lines of behaving like the jerks they are inside instead of the nice geeks they are outside. I think peoples attitudes on the internet are the way they really are, and they restrain theirselves in the real world.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[spaceyhackerlady]

So is this the reason why people seem to be so much more rude on the Internet?

Personally, I see two phenomena at work:

One is that the Internet, with its lack of visual feedback, magnifies badness. It's very easy to be perceived as rude when it's just words, without gestures and facial expressions behind them.

The other is the level of cluelessness that pervades so many forums, and the frustration that arises from such cluelessness. One that came to my attention today was this one. Is this bullying? Is it rude? Or is it just trying to tell people not to be so silly?

...laura

Re:Different From The Old Days

[bonkedproducer]

Except the most rude people tend to be the "non-geek" users - especially true in chat rooms and forums.

Folks that have an internet connection but wouldn't know a modem from a monitor are usually the ones that get caught in the "hey, it's just the Internet, who cares if I'm an asshole" trap.

Most geeks, even those that "bully" online tend to realize it is a real person on the other end of the line, and the Internet is not some magical fairy land made by magic pixies that don't exist in the real world. The luddites are the ones that are being described in this story, and who I see when I do get bored enough to sit in a "mainstream" chat room.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[rgf71]

Obligatory Weird AL:

"If I ever meet you, I'll CTRL+ALT+DELETE you!"

Re:Different From The Old Days

[wolenczak]

While in highschool back in 1995 a kid was spoofing my account and abusing some root exploits, it was a VT100 console, by that time every computer at the lab had an static IP address that matched a number written on sticker in the screen. Got his IP address, took a look at who was at the computer, and literaly I walk towards him, grabbed him from the neck and kicked his ass out of the lab.

I was prohibited to enter the lab for the rest of the term, but he was kicked out of school.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[AvantLegion]

So is this the reason why people seem to be so much more rude on the Internet? Is it geeks getting out their pent-up aggression from being picked on all the time in the real world?

I see you've read Slashdot's mission statement.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[Cat_Byte]

So the story is true on theonion. Online University Cracks Down on Rowdy Online Fraternity

MINNEAPOLIS, MN--Capella University, one of the nation's most heavily trafficked institutions of online learning, issued a stern disciplinary e-mail message to the members of the disorderly Alpha Sigma Sigma online fraternity Monday. "Alpha Sigma Sigma has not only broken the rules included in each distance learner's Online Application User Agreement, but they have also continually thwarted our efforts to create a serious online-learning community and an inclusive e-campus," Capella Dean of Students Theodore Albertson said. "This rowdy fraternity has been a thorn in the school's side for years, and frankly, we've had enough."

Re:Different From The Old Days

[blackmonday]

Isn't it the same inside a car? It always surprises me how people drive like rude asses, then step out of their car and become normal friendly people again. I'm a nice guy on the road, but it's happened more than once that someone I recognize cuts me off or drives rudely around me - then they recognize me and their face changes. An ashamed smile adorns their face. Strange, I always wanted to see studies on that.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[FauxPasIII]

> So is this the reason why people seem to be so much more rude on the Internet? Is it geeks getting out their pent-up
> aggression from being picked on all the time in the real world? Is it people taking their anger at that asshole who
> cut them off on the way to work out on the faceless masses on the Internet?

All of these phenomena are explained by the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory:

http://penny-arcade.com/view.php3?date=2004-03-19

Re:Different From The Old Days

[servognome]

Same happens in a meeting, people can completely pick apart arguements, come up with ways to discredit data, force you into uncomfortable decisions, and be stubbornly antogonistic. But once the meeting is over and you step outside, everybody goes out for beers, talk about your golf game, and play fantasy football
People are able to compartmentalize and adapt their behavior to differing situations. Business is business, fun is fun, driving is insanity on wheels.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[Anonymous Coward]

A little twist here...

I was prohibited to enter the lab for the rest of the term, but he was kicked out of school.

Basically, the kid doing the hacking got no punshment but the violence (you) was dealt with harshly.

I see the same exact thing with my kids in school. My kids get picked on (as do many other kids). Some examples.. some kids forcably took my sons MP3 player from him and would not give it back, eventually they did but the headphones were broke. They took his shoe and pulled the laces out, stuck gum in his hair etc... For a 12 year old, that type of abuse is hard to handle. He refused to get up in the morning, did not want to go to school, claimed he was sick etc.. After numerous attempts of my trying to deal with the situation in a logical and mature manner by dealing with the guidance office abd principal, absolutely nothing had changed. Finally at a conference with the prinicipal and my son, I told my son to get out of his seat from the bus, calmly walk up to the offender and punch the SOB right in the face as hard as he could and if the kid got up, do it again in the stomache or in the nuts by any means possible. I had to resort to barbaric fighting to solve my sons emotional stress. The principal bluntly stated that he was going to put that in his record that I stated that and if anything like that happened, my son would be immediately expelled and charged. Funny how the school can allow and do nothing about any amount of mental abuse but physical abuse is dealt with immediately. I do not really know how they can deal with mental abuse issues but neither did they. After attempting to resolve the situation I finally provided my own a method that I know would work. The confidence he gained from that talk and further talks about the subject allowed him to stand up to the groups of kids without actually having to "fight" it out.

I'm sure many here will never agree to fighting and honestly I do not either but I can tell you the mental abuse a picked on child and their parents have to deal with is 1000x worse then a bully with a bloody nose. It is far better to snap early and use fists then to wait and bottle up the pain until they do something far worse. Too bad the school system does not think that way and could not provide any guidance.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[Anonymous Coward]

Too bad you couln't punch that useless turd of a principal in the face also.

Next time threaten the only thing school admins truly care about, their wallets. It would be worth the cost of retaining a lawyer and suing for lost access to education and civil rights violations.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[Fulcrum of Evil]

it's happened more than once that someone I recognize cuts me off or drives rudely around me - then they recognize me and their face changes.

Might I direct your attention to the greater Internet Fuckwad theory?

Re:Different From The Old Days

[hesiod]

> News Flash: Some middle school kid gets made fun of and harassed by other middle school kids.

Future Flash: The same kid continues to be harassed relentlessly by others because their parents teach them that being better than everyone else is the most important thing. Then, when he guns down the assholes who were making his life hell, the school says they never saw it coming and magically, these total fucking assholes who continually pushed and pushed become heroes for getting shot at "for no reason."

Re:Different From The Old Days

[RadagastTheMagician]

This was my theory on why driving was so much worse in South Korea (when I was there in 1994) than in the US. Koreans have an extremely strong cultural hierarchy, older being higher, and men above women. In person, the younger (or female) always deferred politely to the older person. But once they get in a car, they automatically assume they have more rank than the next guy, because they can't see his face! and proceed to drive crazily like all others should make way for the King.

Despite all the race/sex problems in America we really do have a cultural expectation of equality. When we come to a 4-way stop, Americans across the country expects to get their turn regardless of race or sex. My two cents, anyway.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[affreca101]

Or it trains you to have a thick skin. Thankfully, I am a girl, so escaped most of the physical abuse in middle school, but as a unashamed nerd, I had plenty harassment. I found that nothing offends me now. You can tell me I'm ugly, people hate me, I'm weak.. and I don't care. A "self"-esteem if you will. I had a supportive family, and a big sis who stepped in the only time the abuse got physical. It hurts, but if you support your kids, they are tougher than you give them credit for, so help them with their coping skills before suggesting violence.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[PitaBred]

You know what I found to be really effective? Ignoring the bullies. Agree with them. It'll throw them off-balance.
"You scrawny little dweeb!"
"Yup. Not much I can do about it, though."
Usually leaves them baffled enough that you can just walk away.
That said, I HAVE been in one fight. Some guys caught me beside the school, wanted to play "beat the nerd." As soon as they realized that I would hit them (after doing so), they backed off. I didn't want to pursue an altercation, but if they forced my hand, I would respond in kind.
The main trick is to be secure with who you are, and never take other people's opinion's to heart. Listen to them, don't depend on them being a certain way. Much harder to do than it is to say I realize, but still a good way to get through life as someone who's different than the rest of the sheep.

Re:Different From The Old Days

[mewphobia]

No offence, but you're a girl. I know that sounds pretty sexist, and (depending on your definition of sexism) could well be. But it's not my intent to offend.

This is all based around primary-high school situations, as later in life the rules change a bit and their aren't as many bullies.

The more you let a bully go the more he/she continues. The worse it gets. Because the gratification they got remains with each bullying, and there are no reasons for them to stop. Their peer group obviously accepts it - either from fear of getting bullied themselves or amusement.

So what are your options?
1) Let them continue
2) Verbally assult them back
3) inflict physical pain

#1

I strongly subscribe to the idea that your body is listening to everything. I've done neural net theory at university, and if neurons work the way we think, every single event in your life is embedded within you. With this in mind, if you let them continue you are subjecting yourself to abuse that is destined to manifest itself in later life. If you heard something enough times you start to believe it. You say you were an unashamed nerd. That's good but it shows you already had a good sense of self-esteem. You were unashamed. Some people are ashamed of what they can't change.

#2

You can try and get your 14 yo son to verbally abuse them back. Call them names. But if the bully has been a bully for any length of time, they are well versed at insults. PLUS they think they have the peer group on their side, which gives them more power in their abuse. Generally this just makes the bully madder, and gives them more of a challenge.

#3

You can hurt them physically. This sends a direct message to their pain receptors. I am yet to see an example of when this technique didn't work. It also (and arguably more importantly) Boosts the confidence of the person being bullied. It's a primal instinct. I'm not condoning weapons use. I'm generally not even an advocate for violence. But if someone is a bully, they aren't someone who can be reasoned with. Their insinct to bully is primal, and the way to deal with it is equally so.

Have a good day!

No one better agree with this story

[Anonymous Coward]

Or I will find your ip, track you down and kick your ass! There are no bullies on the internet, get it?

Re:No one better agree with this story

[Anonymous Coward]

I disagree. Oh, and I'll make it easy for you: My IP is 127.0.0.13 Bring it on!

Old story

[n9uxu8]

The journalists drag up this dreck every year or whenever there is a school "incident". dave

Re:Old story

[BJH]

Not necessarily dreck any more.
There was a recent murder case in Japan where a 12-year-old girl was killed by her classmate (and supposedly friend), because she'd called the other girl "fat" on her weblog.

If you're interested in the details, she made the girl sit on a chair (at school, no less) and cut her throat from behind using a craft knife, then waited until she died from blood loss before calling a teacher.

The main problem that I see with weblog/email insults is that it's usually difficult to discuss it directly in a way that would be possible face-to-face, which means that people tend to stew over these things more than they would otherwise.

Common sense applies to AIM too!

[garcia]

A lot of this story was about moronic kids taking pornographic pictures of themselves or friends and it quickly circulating. No fucking way, porn, spreading fast on the Internet? Who would have thought!

But a growing number of teenagers are learning the hard way that words sent into cyberspace can have more severe consequences than a telephone conversation or a whispered confidence. As ephemeral as they seem, instant messages (better known as I.M.'s) form a written record often wielded as a potent weapon for adolescent betrayal and torment.

NOTHING is worse than the fucking "telephone game". Story starts innocuous enough about Timmy getting reprimanded by the Gym teacher and ends up into some outlandish bullshit about Timmy getting his cock sucked by the male Gym teacher for missing a basket during an important shot in a worthless game during class.

Yeah I suppose the written record could be changed to make people more and more guilty looking but it's most likely getting circulated in tact (I know how stuff is copy/pasted between AIM windows). If the girl said some racial epitaph and it got spread over AIM and her school suggested she leave so be it. She probably lucked out better than if it had been said verbally and stretched...

Kids should be taught the same things we preach... Do not allow anyone to contact you on AIM unless they are on your buddy list or at the very least have it prompt you if you don't have them on your list. At least they can't won't get to fill up your SMS inbox with messages about your stupid behavior.

Have some common sense and don't post pictures of yourself masturbating, don't send messages about how you think of someone else, and don't allow yourself to be video taped by other kids doing sexual things with others.

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[Anonymous Coward]

People are getting stupider.

You know, the internet has been around for awhile now and it's only in the last four to six years that people have become increasingly stupid and juvenile. The problem is not the medium. The problem is the peopel using it. They'd cause trouble and be whiny thin-skinned twits no matter what the medium was. If not the internet, it would be elsewhere. When I was in school, there were only BBSes and a few years later, the internet sort of started becoming a bigger deal as dial-up sprang up here and there.

It's sad to see how pathetic the state of affairs is today. And the problem is not the internet, but the children and parents who treat it like it's a fucking McDonald's Playland. It reminds me of that terrible Comcast commercial I've seen a few times where an internet instructor named "Professor Web" is telling students to "stomp around the internet with reckless abondon"... AS IF IT'S A GOOD THING.

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[Aardpig]

If the girl said some racial epitaph and it got spread over AIM and her school suggested she leave so be it.

I had no idea that AIM is heaving with cadavers...

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[adamh526]

Have some common sense and don't post pictures of yourself masturbating, don't send messages about how you think of someone else, and don't allow yourself to be video taped by other kids doing sexual things with others.

This should be obvious, but a technical communications professor I once had always said that when you're sending (even private) electronic communications, assume everybody in the world is going to see/read it, ESPECIALLY people you wouldn't want to.

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[Anonymous Coward]

...Have some common sense...

Good job! You just figured out the solution to 97% of all teenagers' problems! Now that the theoretical framework is laid out, implementation should be a snap!

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[Lord Kano]

Have some common sense and don't post pictures of yourself masturbating, don't send messages about how you think of someone else, and don't allow yourself to be video taped by other kids doing sexual things with others.

The problem is that kids don't have the same amount of life experience. Sure, it stands to reason to most of us here that it would be a bad idea to take a picture of your boner with a camera phone and send it to a couple of girls that you know. I did a lot of dumb shit when I was 14. I wasn't dumb enough to send naked pictures of myself to anyone, but people still laugh at a couple of the idiotic things that I did 15 years ago.

This life experience causes me to be even more careful about the dumb shit that I consider doing today.

LK

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[Anonymous Coward]

You've got the cause and effect totally wrong. People aren't getting stupider, it's just that more people are on the internet today than years ago. This means you get to meet a much wider range of people, some of which are stupid. But I bet, percentage-wise, there are no more stupid people now than before. It's just that (a) you tend to remember stupid people more, (b) stupid people have more examples to copy and duplicate, so it's easier for them to manifest themselves.

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[ackthpt]

People are getting stupider.

People are NOT getting stupider!

You know, the internet has been around for awhile now and it's only in the last four to six years that people have become increasingly stupid and juvenile.

Did it ever occur to you that the internet, anonymity of postings, etc. brings out peoples truer nature? I wish I could point to one of the studies on this, but conclusions are that people communicate much more than they used to (notice all the people jawing on cellphones while they drive, which they couldn't do a couple decades ago without a fat wad of cash, IIRC cell phones were invented in 1948, but few could afford this luxury) the more they communicate the more deeper they dig into their thoughts, reveal more of their character. Typing is more congnitive process than speech, as you can backspace over and otherwise edit your thoughts to make a point more clearly. Beyond the words there's the behaviour, how often do you communicate, to what do you respond, how do you respond, etc.

In short, people aren't more stupid, they're simply revealing the stupidity that's always been there.

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[operagost]

They're just dead above the neck.

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[kasparov]

Actually, there once was a time when if you used the Internet you probably had some level of technical skill.

You didn't just pick up an AOL CD at Wal-Mart and plop it into your e-Machine and get an account, you configured your PPP (or SLIP!) account on your machine by editing some config files and running dip on your linux box (kernel version 0.96b patch level 4!).

So I would argue that since using the 'net is so much easier than it once was, that you probably do run into lot more 'stupid' (read technically inept) people than you once did. Whether this is completely a bad thing, I am not qualified to answer (even though I find myself longing for 'the good old days' occasionally, as well). 'Stupid' people far outnumber the rest of us and the 'net wouldn't be nearly as much a part of society without them.

We'd probably not have any kind of 'cheap' home broadband without them. Hell, perhaps we should raise a glass to the 'stupid' people and say, "Thanks for funding the technology that we love and will use to its fullest potential."

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[Ralph Spoilsport]

NOTHING is worse than the fucking "telephone game". Story starts innocuous enough about Timmy getting reprimanded by the Gym teacher and ends up into some outlandish bullshit about Timmy getting his cock sucked by the male Gym teacher for missing a basket during an important shot in a worthless game during class.

TIMMY!

TIMMY!

TIMMMMY!

Cartman: Shut up, ya retard!

RS

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[Volmarias]

We'd probably not have any kind of 'cheap' home broadband without them. Hell, perhaps we should raise a glass to the 'stupid' people and say, "Thanks for funding the technology that we love and will use to its fullest potential."

... and then kick them offline until they secure their box so that they're not sending thousands of v1agra emails.

Re:Common sense applies to AIM too!

[Gharlane of Eddore]

People aren't getting stupider, it's just that as the entry level for getting on to the Internet (intelligence wise more so than money wise) is getting lower and lower, so more stupid people are getting on the bus. As the ratio of stupid to intellegent rises, the signal to noise ratio falls.

Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES.

[Anonymous Coward]

In fact, I would say that Katie is a sociopath, as well.

I assume the Slashdot crowd doesn't need to be reminded that this is the same "Parry Aftab" and WiredSaftey.org program as pushed by the trampy little "Katie" of "Katie.com" domain theft fame from a couple weeks ago. The same girl that was stupid enough to get herself involved with a 40 year old man alone in his hotel room and then tried to extort an innocent woman out of her legitimately held domain name all under the guise of "I'm a stupid twit and made a bad choice when I was a teenager and now I'm going to spend the rest of my life trying to milk it for every dime I possibly can".

Parry Aftab, Katie and the whole lot are a bunch of fucking twits. They see problems where none exist and blame everyone else in the world for their own personal failures of choice and behavior. God I can't fucking STAND these idiots and I can't believe Slashdot is now "promoting" news for the same twat that we were flaming the hell out of a short time ago.

But it did not end there. As soon as Amanda got home, the instant messages started popping up on her computer screen. She was a tattletale and a liar, they said. Shaken, she typed back, "You stole my stuff!" She was a "stuck-up bitch," came the instant response in the box on the screen, followed by a series of increasingly ugly epithets.

Oh, boo fucking hoo. Don't give people you don't like your instant messaging name, then. Or rather than engaging in petty arguing, sign off. Or block them. What does it take to warn or block someone on AIM? Two or three button clicks? For fuck's sake, it's a few mean words on a computer - it's not like these "bullies" are shoving broomhandles up their "victims" asses.

It's one thing for kids to be whiney little thin-skinned shits, but it's another for the lawyer - Parry Aftab, Wired and that Katie bitch to make big bank going around promoting these social rejects. These retards that can't back down from confrontation by doing the obvious - like blocking people in AIM or simply grow up and deal with the fact that not everyone is going to like you and sometimes your feelings will be hurt.

This story just makes me want to puke, as do those who are clearly exploiting the "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" angle of it. Also - just because you're a porky fuck who almost got herself raped in a hotel by a man three times her age (where the fuck were your parents?!) doesn't make you an "expert". That's like saying that junkies are experts on drugs. Just because you inject a bunch of drugs into your veins doesn't make you an expert about them anymore than driving a car makes me a mechanic - and in the same way, being a stupid twat that makes herself a perfect "victim" doesn't make you any more an expert on these things.

For instance, last spring, when an eighth-grade girl at Horace Mann School in the Riverdale section of the Bronx, sent a digital video of herself masturbating to a male classmate on whom she had a crush, it quickly appeared on a file-sharing network that teenagers use to trade music. Hundreds of New York private school students saw the video, in which the girl's face was clearly visible, and it was available to a worldwide audience of millions.

What the fuck? If a thirteen year old kid is stupid enough to videotape herself masturbating and send it to a classmate, she DESERVES for it to be spread around the school and to be humiliated for it. Sometimes there is a price to pay for being a fucking moron. And the persons with the social and mental problems aren't the people who harass or humiliate her for it - it's the girl who has such a fucking warped brain that she thinks passing around videos of herself with her fingers or a dildo in her pre-pubescent snatch is the way to win over a boyfriend. That kid needs to be sent to a fucking boarding school and undergo major psychotherapy.

This whole fucking article is one tale after another of stupid kids doing stupid things and then running to mommy and getting sympathetic attention when it comes time to pay for their stupid actions. God forbid people learn from mistakes by paying for them.

Re:Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES.

[JamesKPolk]

Yes. As soon as I saw the name Parry Aftab in the linked article, I stopped reading. Her threats toward the owner of katie.com were unacceptable.

Bullying by lawyers is no more pleasant than bullying by schoolchildren.

Re:Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES.

[Nicholas Evans]

Yes yes yes! Yes! Sing it, brotha!

Kids need to grown a damn spine. OOOOH, someone is calling them names. Big fucking deal. What, are you going to suffer 'mental trama' because some insecure lardass called you a bitch?

I mean, for christssake, I heard about teachers correcting papers in purple because red is to scary just this morning.

Spines, please! SPINES!

Re:Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES.

[Anonymous Coward]

"That kid needs to be sent to a fucking boarding school and undergo major psychotherapy."

Umm, excuse me, but please, *don't* send them to my school. Do you have any idea how hard it is to deal with all the whacked-out nutjobs we've got as it is? They're liable to abuse their meds, blow off their psych appointments, and make life living hell for the slightly more normal ones. And we can't do a damn thing about it b/c "it's not their fault, they come from a tough life" and "you should be more sensitive" Fuck that. Boarding school might seem like a nice "out of sight, out of mind" answer, but for those of us who are there and have to deal with it, take your stupid, nympho adolescents and treat them elsewhere. School is for learning, not for counseling.

Re:Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES.

[Anonymous Coward]

What the fuck? If a thirteen year old kid is stupid enough to videotape herself masturbating and send it to a classmate, she DESERVES for it to be spread around the school and to be humiliated for it.

If someone is "stupid" enough to leave their diary lying around a publisher can steal it, do they deserve to have it published in the daily newspaper?

The girl's legal rights were violated: specifically, her copyright to her video. Regardless of what he thought of the contents, it was illegal for her "boyfriend" to publish her work without her consent.

God forbid people learn from mistakes by paying for them.

Such as being sued for breaking the law, even when it applies to unpopular areas of law, such as copyright?
--
AC

Re:Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES.

[Neil Watson]

The new school in my neighbourhood does not have any play ground equipment. There are rumours that they are "dangerous". Kids are also not allowed to play 'king of the mountain' on snow hills. Someone might get hurt. Similarly, sliding on ice in the playground is also frowned upon.

Thus, we are raising children who stay indoors to watch TV and play video games so they don't get hurt.

Re:Parry Aftab and Katie *ARE* BULLIES.

[misleb]

If someone is "stupid" enough to leave their diary lying around a publisher can steal it, do they deserve to have it published in the daily newspaper?

A more accurate analogy would be if someone gave their diary to a publisher without any sort of copyright.

Nothing was stolen from this girl. She gave it away.

-matthew

Her day will come ...

[YankeeInExile]

Scene - a high school girl complaining to her guidance counselor...

• Student: I was online last night, and somebody said I was fat.
• Counselor:I see.
• Student:And they wanted to know why I wear the same pair of jeans eve ry day.
• Counselor:How cruel.
• Student:And how I have Wal-Mart clothes.
• Counselor:Well, in that case, I reccomend you study computers. That way when you graduate, you can go online, and it won't matter if you're fat and wear the same Wal-Mart jeans every day for a year, you will still be the hottest chick that any of the other geeks in your university can get, and they will lavish you with attention. And, in a fitting turnaround, THEY will do YOUR homework.

Re:Her day will come ...

[LoudMusic]

Scene - a high school girl complaining to her guidance counselor...

* Student: I was online last night, and somebody said I was fat.
* Counselor:I see.
* Student:And they wanted to know why I wear the same pair of jeans eve ry day.
* Counselor:How cruel.
* Student:And how I have Wal-Mart clothes.
* Counselor:Well, in that case, I reccomend you study computers. That way when you graduate, you can go online, and it won't matter if you're fat and wear the same Wal-Mart jeans every day for a year, you will still be the hottest chick that any of the other geeks in your university can get, and they will lavish you with attention. And, in a fitting turnaround, THEY will do YOUR homework.

Or she could just steal their identities and ruin their credit ...

So that's it...

[Skyshadow]

I guess that explains this text message I just got from the sales dept. demanding my lunch money.

Remember kids: Violence isn't the answer, but a good command of Tae Kwon Do sure lets you keep your stuff.

Heh

[antifoidulus]

Kids may want to watch that they don't piss off the wrong person on the internet.
In Japan a girl slit the throat of another girl over insulting comments made over the internet.

I've been Jacking for dough online for some time

[Prince Vegeta SSJ4]

virtual Bullying has been going on for some time.

Re:NOOOO!

[ackthpt]

Are geeks not safe anywhere anymore?

Kids fight with words and fists

Adults fight with lawyers

Has Darl threatened to kick your butt unless you give him your lunch money for using Linux, yet?

Fork it over

[Skyshadow]

gimme your lunch money, or i'm going to fork out a hurt process on your ass.

Re:Fork it over

[EulerX07]

Meet me at the bike rack after school, we'll settle this l0s3r.

-Crusher

The Internet is not unique.

[London Bus]

It's just another communication medium, like any other. Once it hit the mainstream, it was inevitable that it accumulated the same proportion of gossipy girls and malicious bullies. There's nothing special about the Web or IM.

It's just a Medium, why expect anything else?

[Prien715]

The internet, instant messaging, and webpages are just new methods of delivering content. Why would we expect new media to have different content than previous media? It'd be like creating a new type or method of picture creation and then being surprised when someone uses it to show pr0n.

Bullies bully in real life. Bullies are going to bully on the internet.

Sad Part of Studies Like These

[grunt107]

Is the knee-jerk response to control iNet content. ("If we stop 'x' from getting anywhere, we send a message to the bullies")

Bullies are a part of society and are everywhere - even to the point of Bully Countries (someday: Bully Planets).

Take the power away. Write a reverse contactor to send bullyx a magnitude reply (you send 1, I send 10). Better yet, trap the messages and post them on a website to show the pure idiocy of the bully.

bah

[nomadic]

When I want to hurt someone emotionally I just write a slanderous mambo about them.

Want proof?

[BCW2]

Just read the comments at /.! About a third would probably qualify and three quarters of the political comments and moderation fit that definition.

Gateway activity?

[Keebler71]

Butis all this on-line activity just a gateway activity to the harder stuff like becoming a Slashdot troll?

Re:NOOOO!

[Anonymous Coward]

These kids aren't geeks. They're just idiot twelve year olds who think the internet is another plaything. The extent of their "geekness" is hanging out in AOL chat rooms and posting profiles to Yahoo! personals and flashing their teenage boobies on their webcam to get attention. Real geeks wouldn't be so thin skinned and wussy.

Idioticy of today's youth.

[GoofyBoy]

>Have some common sense and don't post pictures of yourself masturbating, don't send messages about how you think of someone else, and don't allow yourself to be video taped by other kids doing sexual things with others.

I, as a mature and responsible member of society, am shocked that they were doing this ... for FREE.

Do you know how much money they could have gotten if they that set up a pay-site and charged $19.99 per month (first 7 days free)?!?!?!

I fear for our future.

Hmm

[numbski]

Granted, things will have probably changed by the time I have a child old enough to be dealing with anything like this (there seems to be a long history of 'geeks' in my family, my father was an electrician, my grandfather was a chemist, etc), but if I were a parent now, here's what I would probably do:

Find the offending username/ip.
Move them off of whatever IM client they're using now.

Put them on something a bit more intelligent, my weapon of choice would be centericq, but anything that will allow you to do some scripting will work.

Set up an auto-reply to that user. Auto-block that user. Heck, grab the IP address, nmap, and script-kiddie a shutdown of that IP. Doesn't matter, but you ARE empowered as a parent to stop this sort of thing.

Granted, not all parents are as geeky as we are. There should be a basic 'block username' and 'block from IP address' function in an IM client, no?

Any sort of bully

[Ignignot]

Is just a coward who thinks there can be no retribution for their actions. Then they go and try to demonstrate their power by doing bad things. Oftentimes social outcasts are targetted (like nerds) because they have few friends to draw support on to provoke a response against the bully. That these same victims are then turning around and doing the same thing online saddens me; it reminds me of people who are still steamed over a few childish words or actions from their pre-college days. In either case some bullies have managed to have a large affect on the person's life, and other people's lives through them. Chances are that by the time they're in their twenties, someone who was a bully in high school has either repented his actions or matured to the point where they would no longer even think of pushing someone around. Some of their victims, OTOH, will still have the persecuted mentality. You'll feel a lot better if you simply forgive people who did you wrong as children. The forgiveness isn't for them, it is for you.

Re:Any sort of bully

[blamanj]

What you say is true, but I think there is legitimage reason for concern. Consider the multiplying power of the computer.

Back in the old days, bullying had to be one on one, or the by the people the bully talked to. With text messaging and the Internet, you have broadcast and publishing capabilities in the hands of the bully. In the "real world", that's when things like libel laws come into play.

While I'm not in favor of bringing lawyers into grade schools, this kind of difference has to be considered. As a parallel, consider how much damage a disaffected teen can do alone, vs. how much a disaffected scriptkiddy can do.

I used to teach at Horace Mann

[word munger]

Horace Mann, one of the schools used in the examples, is where I did my student teaching, many moons ago. It is one of the most prestigious private schools in the nation. This was pre-IM, pre-Web, and the students were just about as mean to each other in person as they were online.

What the hell were they thinking?

[Tyrdium]

Seriously, most of the students described in that article were just fscking morons. Sending pornographic material to a hormonal teenager and not expecting it to be distributed? Hell, even if it were analog, it'd probably get around (i.e., photocopier)! If you take nude pictures or whatever of yourself, give it to someone, and expect it to not be distributed... I mean, really, that's just pitiful. As for the cyber-harrasment, that's what the ignore button is for! Use it!

Excellent

[Le Marteau]

I think that's great. The sooner kids realize how f***ed up the American ethos is, and that the American mythos is in fact insane, the sooner they'll get to working on going beyond it. Instead of the little conformists becoming adult conformists, perhaps the brutality of their peers will cause them to begin to question societal norms, and begin to think for themselves.

I was taunted brutally as a kid, and I consider it a blessing. I am a much better man because of it.

Re:Excellent

[wwest4]

> perhaps the brutality of their peers will cause them to begin to question
> societal norms, and begin to think for themselves.

First, this phenomenon is not unique to the "American ethos" (talk about a moving conceptual target). Second, there must be a better way than trial by fire... because I would wager that for every person who emerges stronger from brutal abuse, there is at least one other who emerges completely screwed up, or worse, indoctrinated into the cycle of abuse, ready to bully someone else when the time comes (i.e. when they have smaller friends, siblings, kids, or a spouse).

How about teaching our kids how not to bully, protecting them from others who do bully, and providing the opportunity for treatment of those who exhibit bullying behavior? This goes regardless of the medium - physical or verbal abuse can both be devastating to a vulnerable person.

Re:Excellent

[HarveyBirdman]

That's me. I'm the other one, I was basically an outcast in school. I'm a complete misanthrope who wishes an asteroid would hit the Earth. I'm financially successful, but I can never trust anyone enought to make a lasting friendship because my worst torment came from people who claimed to be friends. As far as I'm concerned, humanity is a vast failure and the sooner it vanishes, the better.

And it doesn't end as you enter adulthood, not if you really look at things. People are the same approval seeking, filthy conformist fuckers from the time their baby brains become fully wired until the day they die. Nothing changes. The only reason most stop pulling bullshit after age 18 is because their asses can be sued or arrested.

Just look at Bush and Kerry, two alleged pinnacles of achievement (presidential candidates). A couple bullies slinging mud and trailing a wake of sycophants behind them. Just like high school. Nothing changes. Nothing matures. The only advancements in civilization are technological improvements and once in a while someone gets and idea that manages to stick (like a Constitution).

Re:Excellent

[Hentai]

... until said idea gets perverted into a tool of abuse rather than the template of liberty it was designed as.

I've had very similar experiences, myself. A big part of the problem, I've noticed, is that people refuse to accept that they're doing it - they have any number of bullshit rationalizations for what they're doing, when really they're just letting the baser parts of their brain dictate behavior. Fundamentally, people are bullies and sycophants because that's what feeds our lower neural wiring - just look at most other primate species if you don't believe me.

And people *DON'T* stop pulling bullshit after age 18, they just learn better and more 'acceptable' ways to do it - things like stealing office supplies and framing you for it, filing spurrious sexual harrassment lawsuits against people they don't like, or claiming date rape against someone who wasn't even at the party.

People are dicks. Congratulations for being able to realize it and say it; you're head and shoulders above the rest of the monkeys.

Re:Excellent

[Le Marteau]

However, that doesn't make me (or you) better than anyone else.

Yes, it does. Some people's thought patterns are more evolved than others, and they are, in fact, better than others.

This idea of 'everyone is equal' is a great way to run a country, but it is a lousy way to pick ones friends and acquaintences.

Re:Excellent

[HarveyBirdman]

This idea of 'everyone is equal' is a great way to run a country, but it is a lousy way to pick ones friends and acquaintences

Actually, I'm no longer sure it's such a great way to run a country.

You.

[numbski]

Meet me behind the gym after class or your ass is grass.

No Karma Bonus either. Gloves are off biatch!

Obligatory link...

[lawpoop]

Link to cover story.

Not karma whoring!

Thought Columbine took care of this.

[fishbowl]

You know, business people these days are scared to do anything at all controversial, because the belief is that "being sued" equals certain bankruptcy.

I wonder why school bullies think their actions will bring anything except violent death?

Re:Also via mobile phones

[Maestro4k]

• According to this article from the BBC bullying also occurs via SMS messages, with 16% of 11 to 19 year-olds admitting receiving threatening text messages.

  As this was from October 03 it wouldn't surprise me if this figure had risen

That's worse than IM harrasment since most phones don't provide an easy way to block an individual sending you SMS messages plus most cellular companies allow you to send an SMS message to one of their subscribers from their website.

Add in many plans have SMS messages costing you a few cents a message (or only so many free then they charge) and you have a major problem. On the bright side the kids sending the threatening messages will likely be violating several laws, local, state, and federal.

Can you imagine a bully in reform school telling his new peers that he was put in there for sending threatening messages? He'd be labeled a geek/nerd and learn what bullying felt like from the victim's side quickly.

Of course that would be poetic justice. :)

On a related note, kids seem to have really lost all common sense. We had an incident in the county I live in where the upperclassmen football players decided to haze the freshman (hazing is both against school policy and against state law here). How'd they decide to go about this? Oh they filled plastic baseball bats full of sand and beat the freshman with them. Some had to be put in the hospital. Most of the kids won't tell who did it because they're scared of retaliation. The parents are livid and the punishment the offenders received didn't help. They were given ten days of in school suspension and forced to set out half of one game.

Frankly I know that every generation will say things weren't as bad when they were kids but even in high school I (and my peers) were smart enough to know beating someone with a heavy blunt object wasn't a good idea.

bizarre

[MORTAR_COMBAT!]

one piece in the article details how an 8th grade girl's masturbation video gets circulated on the internet after she sent it to a boy she had a crush on.

8th graders are what, 14 years old?

guess what -- that's kiddie porn, folks, and the people doing both the circulation and the viewing are committing crimes with pretty harsh punishments. and according to the article, using school computers to do it.

Re:bizarre

[radish]

What's even more insteresting is that the girl in question is both the victim and the first offender. She made the video, she was the first to distribute it.

Re:bizarre

[GlassHeart]

Given that the victim actively shot the video and distributed it, she may have a tougher legal battle...

...than if she just sued them all for copyright infringement. These days I understand it carries the death penalty.

Re:bizarre

[lostPackets]

There was actually a legal case close to me (Pittsburgh) where an underage girl was arrested and charged with distributing child pornography after posting naked pictures of herself.

I believe the charges were dropped but I'm not certain.

This leads to a while (off topic) ugly serious of questions. Cases like the above were obviously not how child pornography laws were intended. My understanding is that the intention is to protect children from sexual predators exploiting them. How does the inscreasing ability of children to "publish" on their own, combined with earlier sexual activity affect this?

While it's idiotic, I certianly don't think that a 14 y/o should be criminally liable for a picture/video another 14 y/o sends him.

Thoughts?

Re:Child Pornography

[mrzaph0d]

i think there was a case recently where a girl got arrested for sending child porn. she had in fact been sending nude pics of herself to someone..can't remember the details and i'm too lazy to look it up, but happy to give an uncorroborated example. :)

I think the point was fair.

[DM9290]

I think the point of the article, that parents should know how to use the computer and be aware of bullying by way of electronic communication was perfectly fair. Those experiences could be very miserable for children.

I am not talking about the long term consequences such teasing may have or may not have on children when they grow up. I'm talking about the suffering taking place in the present tense.

Parents who know how to use their computers could presumably impose the "ignore" feature against other children who are harassing their own.

I am not sure this is any worse than the traditional gossip mongering and name calling that took place back in the days when only nerds had computers.

However, just because the current bullying isn't worse, it doesn't mean that it isn't bad. I think many slashdotters may know what it was like to be bullied as a child.

But it would seem to me that with computer based communication it should be easier to track down and hold the bullies responsible for their bullying.

I still think back in the old days when bullies would physically beat up their victims, the victims had it worse, and there was often no real proof of what happened. And bully's are often great lyers as well.

The physical evidence this type of bullying leaves, provides of opportunity for intervention by parents and teachers.

Anyway... the article was pretty fair. IMHO

Clifford Stoll is RIGHT!

[Asprin]

You see, folks! Clifford Stoll is right! Computers in the classroom are not only an unnecessary and useless distraction, but now they are probably also a serious legal liability.

Please, for the sake of the children, start by unplugging the computers and networks and teach them how to use books again.

/Seriously considering changing my last name to "Luddite"

Re:I know this won't make me popular

[lucabrasi999]

..so I'm posting this anonymously.

-Steve

Dear "Steve": If you want to be anonymous, you probably should remove your name from the post.

Re:Child Pornography

[mrzaph0d]

ok, not that lazy...

here

Don't write anything you wouldn't want made public

[chickygrrl]

"When you say things over the Internet, it feels like you are spewing into your diary,"

Um, not really. I've never felt like anything posted online has been secret in any way at all; even your average Barnes & Noble journal/diary isn't safe from prying eyes if someone has any idea that it exists. It's more like you think that if you believe it's hidden well enough, no one will find it. I've made the mistake of believing that my family wasn't tech-savvy enough to google me and that my boss didn't read my site and as a consequence, I've lost a job, a cousin browsing webcam sites found pictures of me back in my camwhoring days, and my father hasn't spoken to me in over two years.

Re:I know its off subject, but...

[ClippyHater]

You haven't heard about it because the internet is down.

Oh, wait...

Aren't bullies dumb?

[Secret Chimp]

Imagine those conversations between him and your nerdy child... "hey nerd, im guna beat u up" "You mean tomorrow?" "no i mena now punk im beatin up u" "We're on the internet, I don't know what you mean" "im puchin ur face rit now u faget"

I've been around since ARPANet days

[hey!]

People weren't any smarter back then.

Just less numerous and more technically apt.

When you want to censor speech...

[scotay]

...you call it anything but speech. Cyberterrorism, cyberstalking, cyberbullying are all codewords that will be used in arguments to abridge our free speech rights.

MMORPGs

[TheRealFixer]

I play a little bit of Star Wars: Galaxies, and it's facinating to watch the online bully mentality, and how it develeops. On our server, there's an entire guild who prides themselves on ruining everyone elses fun. They are the self-declared alpha-bullies of the game. Recently, someone (either a disgruntled former "insider" or a victim who had had enough of the harassment... no one knows for sure) got ahold of account logins and passwords of several of their members and started deleting their characters. It's now escalated into full-blown harassment, posting personal information (including SS#s) in live chat, and threats of violence in real life. All over a series of tables and fields in a database somewhere.

Some say that online life is a mask people can wear to be someone else. I'm more inclined to believe it's a magnifying glass which can amplify the worst qualities in someone.

Re:MMORPGs

[cvd6262]

Some say that online life is a mask people can wear to be someone else. I'm more inclined to believe it's a magnifying glass which can amplify the worst qualities in someone.

Read Lord of the Flies, and you'll see how a mask does both.

Re:MMORPGs

[vhold]

As I understand it, Everquest has a considerably more expensive server you can play on, like $60 a month or something? Does anybody know if that is actually effective in making it a better play environment through the idea that your common harassing player won't dish out that much? I'm sure a common reaction would be that only tools would pay that much and thus it could be even worse, but if you really are an avid player playing 3-6 hours a night, it would seem that an extra $50 a month would be worth if it made those 90-180 hours significantly better. I wonder if this real world parallel of trying to price out people who can't or just don't care enough to pay more will catch on in terms of online communities.

What goes around...

[ackthpt]

In 2014, the geeks bully the jocks!

What goes around, comes around.

Also, see.

Re:I know this won't make me popular

[Aerog]

This won't make me popular either, but I think there's -some- truth to your statement. No, I wasn't a bully, hell, if I lived in a larger centre I'd probably have been bullied (moreso than the crap the "bullies" in my high school came up with). Super geek? This guy.

However: Sometimes tech people do go a little too far and REALLY need to just stop what they're doing, take a break, and try to interact with the real world. Lord of the Rings was a great movie, Sure, I went opening night and stood in line for an hour. That's great. But if someone accidentally called Gandalf "Gandar", I sure as hell wouldn't say to them "heh, that's Gandalf." and then make a comment involving not being able to tell an ent from an orc. No, I know a lot of geeks (again, mostly software "engineers") who just go way too far with the whole thing to the point where they can barely relate to anything non-geeky, and even with the geeky things they're often either straight up wrong or off on a completely irrelevant tangent.

Yeah, these people bother the piss out of me, and I'm still a geek (albeit I did learn a thing or two since then, like how to get out and do other things). But if it comes down to it, these people usually don't deserve being bullied. Sure they're asking for something; if anything, they either should just be ignored, or get some former geek to take them aside and explain a few things. They don't need to stop being geeks/nerds, they just need to know when to rein it in a bit.

But beating on somebody just because they're annoyinglgy geeky? Well, geeks aren't the only ones who need to chill.

Better Than The Old Days

[Anonymous Coward]

Size doesn't matter on the internet. Physical bulk is only good for slamming a fist down on the keyboard in frustration.

Yes. If "Internet bullying" (sic) is all a child has to worrry about these days, well, frankly, good.

Physical bullying is hard to ignore; namecalling can be much easier. With the internet and blocking software, it's even easier.

And besides, over the internet, there's often more time and personal safety to compose that perfect, literate, well-crafted retort. Rather than trying to croak out something smug-sounding while crawling miserably out of a garbage bin.

I *so* don't miss high school.

--
AC

Re:Better Than The Old Days

[Zibblsnrt]

Yes. If "Internet bullying" (sic) is all a child has to worrry about these days, well, frankly, good.

Physical bullying is hard to ignore; namecalling can be much easier. With the internet and blocking software, it's even easier.

It's more than that. Take the joy of being harassed at school and add to it the fact that you can't even be left alone in the safety of your own house.

Stick a little fear on top of that - you could compose that perfect, literate, well-crafted retort, but you could also be picking your teeth out of the back of your head by three o'clock the next day should you try it.

Harassment online isn't "all" a kid on the wrong end of it has to worry about. It doesn't exist in a vacuum, and it wouldn't be happening if there wasn't someone else physically Out There with something out for his target. Especially if you don't have total control over blocking or tracking things, it's one more refuge snipped out from under the victim - one they can fight back in a lot more easily, it's true, but not without risking the same sort of stuff as though they'd mouthed off to someone twice their size in person.

-PS

Re:Better Than The Old Days

[glorf]

Yes. If "Internet bullying" (sic) is all a child has to worrry about these days, well, frankly, good.

How often does physical bullying have a permanent effect versus emotional bullying? When you hear the term "scarred for life" are they usually talking about actual scar tissue? I don't think in all the stories of school shooters, suicides or any other clear signs of someone going over the edge that physcial bullying was the main reason.

And you know what, if someone puts up a web site that publishes embarassing pictures of you or hurtful rumors they aren't going to politely link to your well-crafted retort. Or when someone gathers their friends and shows the text of the awful message they are about to send and makes sure you are in view so they can see your reaction, they aren't going to gather that same group hours later to view your perfect SMS reply.

Think back to high school and consider the following situation. Emotional Bully A says to student B (in front of a good size audience) some suitably horrible and false statement, "Man those were some nasty skidmarks you had in the lockerroom yesterday". Student B replies "Thats a lie and you know it." Who wins?

Emotional bullying is serious and the larger the audience the worse it can get. The entire internet is a pretty big audience.

Re:Better Than The Old Days

[Frank T. Lofaro Jr.]

I *so* don't miss high school.

Things really don't change much as an adult. Now bullies don't beat you up, they just try to get you fired, fire you on false pretexts, talk behind you back and try to get people to turn on you, etc. All the nonsense that went on in high school still does in the adult world, it just takes on a more adult form. More subtle, but the stakes are higher.

Real world should have consequences too

[Chemisor]

> I think it's mostly that people don't have to deal
> with real-world consequences. You can say things
> in text to people that would get your face beaten
> in if you said them in person.

We can learn from this. If you could beat up rude people in real life, there would be a lot fewer of them. Sleazy newspaper reporters, lying used car salesmen, and dishonest politicians will disappear practically overnight if one were to abolish the first amendment for everybody. These days the first amendment is abolished only for honest people who are not allowed to talk about dangerous subjects at work or protest peacefully on the grass in New York

Re:Real world should have consequences too

[r_j_prahad]

...dishonest politicians...

Is there another kind?

Re:Real world should have consequences too

[dasmegabyte]

That grass did cost $18 mil. I'd rather see 250,000 people choking the sidewalks and subways of NYC, anyway. Problem here is that they all want to get together. That's stupid -- if you get all of your ideas in one place, it's much easier to ignore. Split up into 25,000 groups of ten and stand on the sidewalks all over NYC. This would be a protest to be proud of.

Re:Real world should have consequences too

[Dread_ed]

One of the grievances that the protestors made about the first location that they agreed to was that it would be difficult/expensive to put up a PA system. They said that the city should pay for or help pay for one for them at the original location. Note that it is not impossible, just difficult and costly in the estimation of the protestors.

Another one of the grievances about the original location was the lack of water. They also wanted the city to provide them with free water.

Another thing was shade. They wanted a place that was shaded from the sun.

Note also that I have never read about a constitutionally guaranteed right to a PA system, free water, and shade. If there is I want mine right now. And I want all of my water bills refunded to me with interest.

United for Peace and Justice is a mockery of its namesake. People in the past have had to endure bullets, attack dogs, firehoses, nooses, nightskicks, spit, and curses to be able to speak out about what they believe in. These jackasses think that the government owes it to them to give them a speaker system, free water, and a friggin tent or the city should be forced to allow them to destroy, by their presence, the environmental glory that is Central Park.

I cannot express how arrogant and self centered this sounds to me. Pay for your own damned protest. I don't care if I agree 100% with your position, it is your responsibility to provide for yourself. New York (and any other city for that matter) dosen't owe you a damned thing other than to allow you a place to speak your mind.

On the other hand the protestors, as guests and citizens, owe New York quite a bit. The least of which is peaceful, controlled, LEGAL protesting. New York has paid enough in what they have endured, they don't need people leeching off of them, intentionally disrupting the transportation infrastructure of the city, and causing post tramautic stress disorder in the emergency personnel by engineering false alarms related to explosives. In addition, no matter where the "free speech zone" is I am sure that the city will have to clean up after this protest and it will cost them quite a bit of cash just for that. These people should be grateful, instead they whine about how they can't have their cake, and the cake of the people of New York city as well, and eat both too. Disgusting!

With the violent and disruptive past record of protest groups with similar ideology to United for Peace and Justice, and with certain agitators telling people to shut down the subways and confuse the police and bomb dogs with gunpowder laced clothing it is a wonder that New York is not placing 50 cal machine gun turrets around the "free speech zone" and moving it to Jersey.

Re:Real world should have consequences too

[aardvarkjoe]

..dishonest politicians...

Is there another kind?

Yes. Dead ones.

Re:Real world should have consequences too

[Zhe Mappel]

I cannot express how arrogant and self centered this sounds to me. Pay for your own damned protest.

Ok. And you pay for your own damned convention, instead of passing the bill for police and civil infrastructure off to the taxpayers. While you're at it, pay for and serve in your own damned wars.

Laissez faire in name only, eh?

Re:Real world should have consequences too

[rthille]

Nope, those are just lying in their graves!

I was stalked once.

[hellomynameisclinton]

I was reading slashdot, and he left a message for me.

Give me all your money - I know who you are. ps. I accept paypal

So I clicked away as fast as I could and started reading fark - but he was one step ahead.

If you don't give me all your money I'll disable your SETI@home account!

I was terrified. This guy was good. So I thought I'd try something else, I went to google news - how was he doing this? There in the headlines:

iraqWarDeathToll++;
Stem Cells blocked by extremists citing Satan - Christopher Reeve unavailable for comment.
I Said Send Me Your Money.
jobsAvailable--;

I'd had enough, I turned off my computer and ran to a newspaper.

95% of the money in the world controlled by 5% of the population, 50% controlled by 1%.
Economic middle-class taxes and expenses rising - wages stagnant.
Super-rich get tax break on overseas investements.
Incumbent campaigns to convince citizens that they will be rich - fights for lower taxes.

And I realized there wasn't anyone stalking me. The messages weren't directed at me alone, but at me as a member of the economic middle-class. I thought I was a bully's target, and I guess in a way I am. I'm personally affected by every corrupt policy, every writ of habeas corpus, every war, every genocide.

VOTE, if you care.

Reasonability and Copyrights

[virg_mattes]

> If someone is "stupid" enough to leave their diary lying around a publisher can steal it, do they deserve to have it published in the daily newspaper?

Not applicable to the situation at hand. She passed the video to the boy herself, which established a desire to distribute. Having your diary stolen doesn't establish this desire.

> The girl's legal rights were violated: specifically, her copyright to her video. Regardless of what he thought of the contents, it was illegal for her "boyfriend" to publish her work without her consent.

Incorrect. If she didn't apply for a copyright, or at the very least include some notice not to distribute in the video or otherwise, she didn't establish any reasonable desire to copyright, so enforcing it would be problematic at best. More importantly, copyright violation is a civil tort, so she would have to demonstrate monetary loss due to his distribution, like for example if she was charging for distribution and he gave it away. No such monetary loss occurred, so there's no case for copyright infringement.

More to the point, however, is her recourse. If she truly wanted to make him pay for doing what he did, she could have reported him to the local police. A video of a 13-year-old girl masturbating is child pornography anywhere in the U.S., and by putting the video up on a P2P network, he's guilty of distribution, which is a felony offense. While he was sitting in reform school for five years, he'd have time to reflect on how "not nice" his action was. Also, any classmate who taunted her with comments about seeing the video would be subject to arrest for posession, so the story would die quickly.

Virg

Re:Reasonability and Copyrights

[LordK2002]

More to the point, however, is her recourse. If she truly wanted to make him pay for doing what he did, she could have reported him to the local police. A video of a 13-year-old girl masturbating is child pornography anywhere in the U.S., and by putting the video up on a P2P network, he's guilty of distribution, which is a felony offense

She is also guilty, of distributing and producing child pornography. The fact that she was the subject would be no defense.

Getting the police involved would be a seriously bad idea on her part.

K

Re:Reasonability and Copyrights

[dvdeug]

More to the point, however, is her recourse. If she truly wanted to make him pay for doing what he did, she could have reported him to the local police. A video of a 13-year-old girl masturbating is child pornography anywhere in the U.S., and by putting the video up on a P2P network, he's guilty of distribution, which is a felony offense.

Um, she's guilty of distribution, too. By reporting him she would have been reporting herself.

That's funny...

[infinite9]

I'm more inclined to believe it's a magnifying glass which can amplify the worst qualities in someone.

That's funny. That's my definition of marriage.

Re:Parry Aftab and Katie... [compassion anyone]?

[Morpeth]

How about a little compassion? Yes, some of the things kids in there were simply stupid - but you know what, I'm betting you were pretty much an idiot and far from level-headed at 13 or so too - like most of us were. I know I sure as hell didn't think all that clearly at that age.

As adults I think we tend to get so jaded and so quick to judge. Kids at that age aren't as thick skinned as adults, teasing, name calling, gossiping is very painful at adolescene. Go ahead and saw "awwwww..." all you want, I'd rather show a little kindness that turn the kid in a angry, repressed, beaten down sociopath.

"she DESERVES for it to be spread around the school and to be humiliated for it.... stupid kids doing stupid things and then running to mommy and getting sympathetic attention when it comes time to pay for their stupid actions"

I'm REALLY glad you weren't my parent, and I hope you aren't anyone's parent. I made some mistakes as a kid - but you know what my parents did - made damn sure I learned from it while ALSO being supportive and understanding, like a good parent should; not berating me and ranting b/c they were pissed off, unsympathetic, cynical adults.

It's just gotta be said.

[Flower]

The web allows one to extend bad manners from real life.

peter303, you must be new here.

Got a Better Answer

[virg_mattes]

I have a better answer for the abuse, if it gets bad enough to be affecting your child that strongly. Find out the screen names/IM handles in question. Ask your child to find out who they are in real life. Print out the offending messages on real paper. Mail them to the parents of the children in question. Sure, you'll find some parents who won't care, but the vast majority of people will respond to this by confronting their kids with the evidence. These kids will back off fast when they realize that the stuff they say online can find its way back to mom and dad.

Virg

Bullies and Victims

[crem_d_genes]

In one model - there are 4 groups in the *bully/victim* scenario:
1. *Bullies* - who repeatedly make some sort of attack on someone who is (for some reason or another) unable to defend against it (an *asymmetric* relationship).
2. *Passive victims* - who usually don't provoke the bully, they might just be different - or weak - or handicapped - or smart - or not something...
3. *Active Victims* - who tend to be very good at getting under someone's skin - either by the way they say things (perhaps they have a great way to humiliate someone verbally) - but they usually end up seen as the ultimate victim. If you trace things back, active victims look a lot like bullies, but in a different way. They often blame others with a type of rapid revisionist history of events.
4. *Bystanders* - they tend to *normalize* what is accepted in the social setting - so what might be considered bullying by one group, might be considered *normal* by another - which is one reason why you can talk to a teenager all day about not bullying, and they have one view of what that means and sending a *mean IM* probably isn't going to be it, unless that child identifies themselves themselves as the victim.

On a related note - however kids define bullying, more than half say they have been both victims and bullies in different situations, and like all models - the *4 groups* listed above is just a handy way to help some get a handle on the way many situations play out.

The feeling of anonymity

[goofy183]

It makes a lot of people a feeling of power.

I remember helping a friend prove that the harrasing emails that his sister was recieving were coming from someone in the area. There was another girl that the school who was suspected of the emails but the fake contact info for the hotmail account was from the other side of the country. Luckly at that time hotmail correctly included the IP of the machine the person was logged in from in the email headers (not sure if they still do) and it was fairly simple to trace back to a general location. When confronted that the emails were coming from somewhere in the town and the ISP would look up the account info for us she confesed.

The idea is the same then as it is now, the kid feels like they can say what they want and get away with it. Fortunatly most don't really know how to be anonymous online so finding the source via your local geek isn't too difficult.

Re:Parry Aftab and Katie... [compassion anyone]?

[gosand]

How about a little compassion? Yes, some of the things kids in there were simply stupid - but you know what, I'm betting you were pretty much an idiot and far from level-headed at 13 or so too - like most of us were. I know I sure as hell didn't think all that clearly at that age.

Hey, how about showing a little compassion to the boy who received the video? What would YOU have done at 14 if some girl sent you a video of herself masturbating? You probably would have shown it to your friends too. HE made a dumb mistake, just like SHE did. You can't just show compassion for one side.

See, I am all for showing compassion. One of the best books I have ever read is "The Art of Happiness" by the Dalai Lama. Now there is someone who practices what he preaches.

How about showing some compassion to this girl by NOT teaching her to sue when she is wronged. How about teaching HER about compassion. How about teaching the boy about compassion. I am not involved in this stupid fiasco, so my having a compassionate opinion isn't going to do shit.

You have to be held accountable for your own actions. This girl freely distributed a video of herself - hey, that's life. I am not going to blame her parents, because kids will do dumb things. But her parents should step up and refuse to sue other people for something her kid did on her own. Learn from it, move on.

The Diamond Age

[GMFTatsujin]

A weird but sensible juxtaposition in Stephenson's book, The Diamond Age, was the resurgent dominance of Victorian-era tropes in the upper classes. The society emphasized self-discipline, a strict code of manners and interaction, and the importance of constant vigilance toward one's appearance in public and private alike.

The reason for this throwback was in part that survelliance technology had miniturized and infiltrated to the point that any given surface could house cameras and transmitters that could not be traced if they were even noticed. Therefore, keeping a strict code of bahavior was neccesary at all times to deny the possibility of a smear campaign, blackmail, or other possible stigma.

The online bullies scenario brings Stephenson's vision to my mind. Maybe it's time to recognize that anything recorded will probably get around at some point. And it's easier to record than you think.

Kids, pay attention: Maybe it's a stupid idea to masturbate into your webcam and then email the movie to anybody. Email gets around. It's the new STD: Sexual Transmission Disease.

Either that or open up and make accessable DRM techniques to the public.

Take it from someone in this age group. Really.

[ScytheBlade1]

I'll openly admit that I'm in this "age group". I'm 16.

If my parents knew that I had just told you people my age, my mom at least would completly flip out and be scared that someone is coming to abduct me based on this alias and that age. (But that's a different story. This is /., and I would expect that at least most of you have more common sense than that.)

I recently had a friend who went point-blank suicidal. I'll refer to him as a he, but note I'm not disclosing that. He threatened that he was both cutting himself and was holding a gun (.45 to be precise, a shotgun) to their head.

This was told to me over, heh, IM. (Once I realized he was serious, I called the police, meh, that's beside the point.) But, let me comment a bit on this story.

"I have kids coming into school upset daily because of what happened on the Internet the night before," Ms. Yuratovac said. " 'We were online last night and somebody said I was fat,' or 'They asked me why I wear the same pair of jeans every day,' or 'They say I have Wal-Mart clothes.' "

*gasp* Let's sit down and think here. Is this really any worse at all than something like this happening in real life? Here's a hint: it's not, it's actually easier to work with than it is in real life. Why is this? It's called the "block" button. Harsh as this may sound, if they sit there and listen to such things, all the while in perfect control and having the ability to change that, then it is in my opinion partially their fault for not clicking the block button and actually dealing with it.

Amanda has her Internet messages automatically forwarded to her cellphone, and by the end of the game she had received 50 - the limit of its capacity.

I'm going to assume ICQ or MSN were used for this, which makes it (sending of IMs to a phone) incredibly easy. MSN, it's a matter of right-clicking and hitting 'Sent to mobile device'. ICQ, just check the SMS button.

The end user is in perfect control of this, should they want this to happen. MSN it's a checkbox in the options to turn it off (which must be turned on in the first place, mind you), and ICQ it's essentially the same thing. There was nothing preventing "Amanda" from not being subjected to this. From this story, everything that happened could have been prevented with about 45 seconds of clicking. (Okay, the exception being things like this, but again, turn the phone off. There are ways of preventing this. Of course, I really, really would like to see something like an whitelist/blacklist for phone text messages in the future.)

Some of you may ask why I'm essentially "assulting the abused." I am 16, I do know what it's like when this happens, and I do know that, at times, it can cause things such as counseling, etc. etc. etc. I am not assuming that life is perfect and everyone enjoys a perfect life with no one harassing them.

It goes back to a point I made earlier: IM is not any different than real life, except in the fact that it's exponentially easier to deal with. It's the internet. If they spam your e-mail, get a new e-mail. Harass you via SMS web-to-phone? Turn it off.

Then deal with the "offenders" in real life, compared to sitting there and listening.

Like, duh? Hello? These kids don't need advice on how to stay safe online, they need a reality check. In every scneario described, it could have been changed. You hear stories like this, other /.'ers linking to people commiting suicide as a result of talking on IM to people, but really, sit down, and think. IM is not any different than real life. If someone can convince someone, push some over the edge, over the instant messenger, I shudder to think what that person would be vulnerable to in real life.

The instant messenger should be considered just as dangerous as real life, at very very most, because you don't have to be there, you have a choice not

Re:Take it from someone in this age group. Really.

[FurryFeet]

Listen, bud, you don't just waltz into slashdot to make long, sensible, gramatically correct posts. That's just not how we do things around here. We'll let it slide since you're just 16, but watch your step from now on, OK?
I mean, not even a Microsoft bash in there! Where do you think you are?

(Seriously, great post. I have to say you certainly don't sound 16)

I worked at a school...

[myov]

I worked as a technician at a secondary school a few years ago, and ran into this a few times. One time, I remember being called into the vice-principal's office and meeting with a police officer, who actually asked me how to proceed (obviously, this person didn't have any experience with internet investigations - when my experience was that the only group that *can* do anything is the police).

In any case, I think they knew who it was but were just looking for a way to connect this person to the site, especially when a geocities site can be created anonymously. My knowledge was limited to attempting to get the various logs and tracing through them, and I'm not sure if the police had any internal resources for this type of investigation.

Re:Child Pornography

[pclminion]

It could be used to help prevent more kiddie porn. Imagine if the ruling says "if the kid does the filming, it's okay" or "if the kid does it themselves, it's okay."

I never said it was okay, or that we should simply ignore children who send out naked pictures of themselves. But don't you think it's absolutely insane to charge her with a crime? She clearly has some issues which need dealing with, but charging her with a sexual offense against herself?

Even in the situation you mention (an adult coercing a child into filming themselves), don't you think we should be going after the adult, not the child?

So if you are a minor...

[Blaede]

...and you watch a video of another minor stripping, that's a felony? But if that same minor watches the other consensually strip for him in person that's legal? This boggles the mind: an analog copy - illegal, the real act - legal.

What if a minor records themself masturbating, are they then guilty of possessing child porn? What if they then watch the video of themselves as adults, are they guilty of viewing child porn? Is it possible to commit a crime against oneself?

Re:One word: Therapy

[winkydink]

And he, or a rape victim for that matter, needs to acquire the skills necessary to deal with the past injury. Very few people (some would say none) can do this all by themselves. Therapy can help.

Something I've been wondering about

[xQuarkDS9x]

OK, so a girl get's picked on by a bunch of other schoolgirls via IM. What the hell was she doing giving out her IM addy's, whether it be AOL, MSN, ICQ, Yahoo, or whatnot, to begin with in school? That's just as bad as giving out your phone number to all the kid's in school, so one smartass or several smartasses can do prank call's all night long.

One would think that, just as e-mail addresses, you only give it to people you trust, and certainly not to random people. Also makes me wonder if they even knew about the block or ignore feature in several IM clients...

Beware the retort

[DeltaHat]

I'm just glad I didn't know back then what I know now about computers. The backlash of a technically adept teenager could be devastating.

• Spoof an email from the bully's friend containing a trojan over an open relay.
• Take creative liberties with the target's important assignments. Or just delete them at the last minute.
• Enjoy using the bully's screen name on various message boards to express your opinion about them. Better yet, make them out to be the very thing they are persecuting in hopes that their peers will turn on them.
• Post the bully's personal journal on their brand new "personal" blog. Then link to it from all imaginable sources.
• Sign them up for Russian mail-order bride catalogues. You can never get rid of the subscription.
• Set up an app to SMS their cell phone every five minutes forever.
• Create a yahoo personals account for your favorite bully that emphasizes sadomasochism. Be sure to have fun with photoshop. Then seed links in strategic places.
• Publish their cell phone number on a homosexual phone sex web-list. Emphasize that the call is free.
• Create a free email forward account that links to the bully's home and school email. Sign it up for all kinds of junk. Without access to that account, the bully cannot unsubscribe without considerable effort.
• Order a singing telegram on your bully's behalf for his or her biggest rival asking for forgiveness and friendship. The sappier the better.