Mozilla's Sunbird Reviewed

It's 0.2, not 2.0. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:07 · Score: 4, Informative

Just thought you might like to know, editors. And authors.

Re:It's 0.2, not 2.0. by Greg+K+Nicholson · 2004-09-04 06:46 · Score: 1

It's not even 0.2 - it's 0.2 *alpha* - that's what the "a" in "0.2a" stands for. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say there's absolutely no hope that Firefox 1.0 PR won't be widely described as Firefox 1.0.

Correction -- Version 0.2 by sessamoid · 2004-09-04 02:07 · Score: 5, Informative

It's not "2.0". It's "0.2". Way before 1.0.

--
"No, no, no. Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."

Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by ScottGant · 2004-09-04 02:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

The original submitter of the news also should of said what the fricken thing was...instead of just providing a link. Just say what it is in the piece so people that are interested in what it is can go there, those that don't need/care don't have to follow the link...and contribute to the slashdotting effect...

Journalism 101

--

"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by goldmeer · 2004-09-04 02:57 · Score: 0

The original submitter of the news also should of said what the fricken thing was...instead of just providing a link. Just say what it is in the piece so people that are interested in what it is can go there, those that don't need/care don't have to follow the link...and contribute to the slashdotting effect...
ScottGant (642590) should have said what the fricken thing was...instead of just complaining about the original submitter of the news just providing a link. So people that are interested in what it is can go there, those that don't need/care don't have to follow the link...and contribute to the slashdotting effect... Like I just did!
FYI: Sunbird is the new cross-platform calendar application from the Mozilla foundation.
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by ScottGant · 2004-09-04 02:59 · Score: 1

goldmeer (65554) should have read the fricken reply I had 2 minutes after I made the post instead of jumping down someone's throat because he thought he caught them at something.

--

"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:02 · Score: 0

You mean like he did 7 minutes before your post?
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by goldmeer · 2004-09-04 03:37 · Score: 1

You sir are 100% correct! What do you think are you doing posting a factual post?

(I like the word fricken, BTW.)

It's the weekend, laugh a little. With me or at me, it dosen't matter much.
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:37 · Score: 0

also should of said

should have. But otherwise I absolutely agree.
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:37 · Score: 0

He replied 7 minutes AFTER the post saying what it was.

Any way you cut it he shouldn't have stuck his nose in it.
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by the+pickle · 2004-09-04 03:48 · Score: 4, Informative

It doesn't help that you didn't say what it was, either...

For those of you who don't know (from the project page):

The Sunbird Project is a redesign of the Mozilla Calendar component. Our goal is to produce a cross platform standalone calendar application based on Mozilla's XUL user interface language. At the moment the "Sunbird" name is a project name. It is not official and may change in the future.

--
In Korea, long hair is for old people!
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:52 · Score: 0

actually the submitter "should HAVE said".

Grammar 101
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by tpillon · 2004-09-04 04:25 · Score: 1

Thank you, I agree, since the main Mozilla.org page has no mention of it...

--
--Do Not Write In This Space--
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by drinkypoo · 2004-09-04 04:46 · Score: 1

Not only that, but read the introduction from the review:

Mozilla Sunbird is the latest stand-alone application from the Mozilla foundation that follows in the footsteps of now revered browser Firefox and email client Thunderbird. Gareth reviews their first public release, version 0.2.

Look familiar? That's called plagiarism. You have to paraphrase for it to be fair use unless you're critiquing the passage. Amusingly, the quoted passage doesn't tell what it is either. Clearly these people never studied the writing of essays...

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 05:37 · Score: 0

"should of said"

Hah, and you said "journalism 101".

It's "should HAVE said", you illiterate American cretin.
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by thephotoman · 2004-09-04 08:14 · Score: 1

Actually, if the quote is properly attributed, it's fair use. Doesn't matter about critique. Otherwise, we'd get in trouble for our movie quotes out here.

--
Haec merda tauri est. Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by chromatic · 2004-09-04 12:06 · Score: 1

It's not plagiarism when the submitter copies an introduction he wrote.

--
how to invest, a novice's guide
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by drinkypoo · 2004-09-04 12:16 · Score: 1

This is true. Then it's just laziness, especially when his introduction sucks.

--
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Re:Correction -- Version 0.2 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 18:07 · Score: 0

... and in your rant, you could have saved people the effort by saying what it was too!

Brain rot! by soyuz_2 · 2004-09-04 02:07 · Score: 1, Redundant

Pretty colors

Re:Brain rot! by aardvarkjoe · 2004-09-04 05:26 · Score: 1

You know, if you switch to Light HTML in your preferences, you don't have to worry about the horrific color scheme (well, there's the bar at the top of the comments, but that's it.) And as a plus, you get more bandwidth for downloading mus^H^H^Hpr0^H^H^H Linux ISOs.

--

How can we continue to believe in a just universe and freedom to eat crackers if we have no ale?

FP by sm8000 · 2004-09-04 02:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

"as of the moment Sunbird does not integrate with Thunderbird or Firefox." Sometimes this isn't always a bad thing, you know?

Re:FP by DarkSarin · 2004-09-04 02:22 · Score: 4, Informative

That may be true, but I remember not too long ago having trouble getting T-bird to open links in firefox if I clicked on them, and firefox wouldn't open mailto links.

That said, there is also a calendar plugin for both of these programs that can be made to use the sunbird calendar (all use the same file format, and you simply point them to the same file). A bit more work, yes, but ultimately useful.

I suspect that now is the time to speak up, and they will be able to fix the problems before a 1.0 release occurs.

--
"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
Re:FP by ESqVIP · 2004-09-04 02:48 · Score: 0

The calendar extension is Sunbird's predecessor. Though it is not bad, Sunbird has a nicer look (I wish I could say more, especially if it fixed the silly interface bugs from the extension, if only Sunbird didn't go into an infinite loop here when starting).
But, anyway, what matters is that Sunbird is the next step, and it's more recommended than the calendar.
Re:FP by jrexilius · 2004-09-04 03:04 · Score: 1

offtopic slightly, but how did you fix that, my friend is having same problem cant figure it out..
Re:FP by DogDude · 2004-09-04 03:06 · Score: 2, Interesting

I agree. I'm trying it now because I wanted a stand alone calendar app. I may not necessarily have Firefox or Thunderbird open at the time, so this is a nice way to cut down bloat. That being said, 0.2 has some serious resource allocation problems, making it run very, very slowly at times. I'm looking forward to future, more complete versions.

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I don't respond to AC's.
Re:FP by Soul-Burn666 · 2004-09-04 03:28 · Score: 1

Set FFox and TBird as the default Browser and MailProgram respectivly, and it should work.

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^_^
Re:FP by jrexilius · 2004-09-04 03:38 · Score: 1

This is on a RedHat 9 desktop, excuse my ignorance of desktop stuff, is that the same solution?
Re:FP by Bungopolis · 2004-09-04 03:43 · Score: 3, Informative

In a Linux system you'll need to edit your prefs.js directly at ~/.thunderbird/default.###/prefs.js

Simply add the line:

user_pref("network.protocol-handler.app.http", "/usr/bin/firefox");

or the path to your desired browser.
Re:FP by Soul-Burn666 · 2004-09-04 04:24 · Score: 1

My bad, this applies to Windows.
Try this which was written here by another poster. I believe a similar solution exists for the other direction.

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^_^
Re:FP by Dizzle · 2004-09-04 04:49 · Score: 1

Simply...

To a newb, that's not too simple. I'm not saying it's not simple to you, or even that you shouldn't use that word, but just that it's indicative of how Linux has a ways to go on the usability front.

--
-Dizzle
"I most likely AM so interested in myself."
Re:FP by Greg+K+Nicholson · 2004-09-04 06:48 · Score: 1

The Calendar extension (not to be confused with Sunbird) does, though.
Re:FP by Curtman · 2004-09-04 07:04 · Score: 0

just that it's indicative of how Linux has a ways to go on the usability front

Maybe its indicative of the fact that we'd rather you guys just stuck with Windows.

Seriously though, isn't it much easier to just select Thunderbird as the default mail application? In Gnome its in
Preferences/Advanced/Preferred Applications
Re:FP by DarkSarin · 2004-09-04 07:19 · Score: 1

Sure, if you use gnome. I tend to use XFCE, for a number of reasons (though I plan to give gnome another shot here soon).

--
"We don't know what we are doing, but we are doing it very carefully,..." Wherry, R.J. Personnel Psychology (1995)
Re:FP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 08:52 · Score: 0

Maybe the unix world should get together and decide on ONE SINGLE REGISTRY to store settings such as the user's default browser/mailer, regardless of what desktop you are running. Or is that too obvious of an idea for the Linux crowd?
Re:FP by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 09:36 · Score: 0

It has nothing to do with being obvious, and everything to do with personal preference. In Windows you don't get a choice, you're stuck with the GUI that MicroSoft gives you, and the rediculous registry that comes with it. With Unix you can choose one that you like, or do without one altogether. Apparently that's not obvious to certain ignorant members of the Windows crowd.
Re:FP by jrexilius · 2004-09-04 13:21 · Score: 1

It is an obvious way to design in a lot of the problems that plague windows.

The questions of making these types of setting difficult as a trade-off for having the type of instability, security, and bloat issues that arise from windows-type registry are probably ones the unix world has asked itself. And the answer is generally, keep using windows until we find a better solution. Its not to say that the goal is not ease-of-use and that we will never address those issues, its just that we aren't forced into an ugly hack that will cause more problems then it fixes.
Re:FP by Bungopolis · 2004-09-04 15:43 · Score: 1

There is such a project in development called Elektra (electra.sourceforge.net). A registry-style configuration database is probably a good idea in theory for *nix, but it's very important to get it right to prevent it from becoming a painful mess... (see Microsoft Windows for an example of such a registry gone mad)

Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by Penguinoflight · 2004-09-04 02:09 · Score: 5, Insightful

It seems that if Mozilla were at this stage in its development, say 5 years ago, they would probably be converging into one application. Perhaps Mozilla has decided to learn from the mistakes of Windows/IE integration. With the recent wired article where a Microsoft security head admitting his use of Firefox, I would say this move to less integration is definatly a smart one.

--
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14

Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by soyuz_2 · 2004-09-04 02:13 · Score: 5, Insightful

where a Microsoft security head admitting his use of Firefox

Anyone making software would be nuts not to try the competitors product. I mean, surely Audi engineers try BMW's to see what they have to compete against, right?
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by EpsCylonB · 2004-09-04 02:17 · Score: 1

I waiting for the time when mozilla decide to integrate firefox, thunderbird and sun bird into one application.

Oh wait...
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by mantera · 2004-09-04 02:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

"With the recent wired article where a Microsoft security head admitting his use of Firefox"... I read his interview and it did not indicate that he was using it in any more capacity than testing it. He definitely did not say he was using it for browsing or relying on it. In fact, he said it too had security issues. So, although I'm typing this on firefox right now, let's not get excessively enthausiastic. Microsoft had always had a practice of seeing what's out there, competitors and already implemented solutions, that him having firefox on his computer means very little. He probably has every other browser out there too.
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by mcc · 2004-09-04 02:38 · Score: 1

Or maybe Mozilla has decided to learn from the mistakes of Mozilla. Or the mistakes of Netscape Communicator. Once NS3 died out and until Firefox came along the Netscape browser series was just about the archetypical example of detrimental "integration"...

--
Irritable, left-wing and possibly humorous bumper stickers and t-shirts
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by leonmergen · 2004-09-04 02:54 · Score: 0

With the recent wired article where a Microsoft security head admitting his use of Firefox

He never said he used Firefox as his browser, he merely said he had to install an update that morning. As a security head, I really am not suprised he has other browsers installed...

--
- Leon Mergen
http://www.solatis.com
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by Stevyn · 2004-09-04 03:26 · Score: 1

I don't think so much it's a move away from integration, but just keeping the actual programs separate. Mozilla Suite was one huge application that had all these little bits and pieces of programs. They were integrated because they shared the same internal structures. However, this led to bloat when you had to waste memory for a program you weren't using. I think mozilla's new strategy is to make the programs totally independent, but work together in a more abstract sense. This is more difficult, but it leads to better and more stable products.

Now if only I could rely on copy and pasting to work on all my linux programs.
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 04:23 · Score: 0

"I read his interview and it did not indicate that he was using it in any more capacity than testing it."

Yeah, we all know how well products of Microsoft work with competing browsers. *cough* MSDN *cough* Hotmail *cough*. Microsoft and ALL its employees and "programmers" want Mozilla/Firefox dead. Period.
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by callipygian-showsyst · 2004-09-04 04:29 · Score: 4, Insightful

Microsoft had always had a practice of seeing what's out there,
Exactly right!
In fact, that was one serious problem I noticed with Apple when I worked there. Nobody believed they had any competition, and nobody ran competitors products. Folks there really beleived, for example, that if you tried to plug a digital camera into a Windows XP machine you'd have to spend hours downloading drivers and dealing with BSOD.
It's SMART to know what the competition is doing. I'd be disappointed in Microsoft if they didn't keep abreast of the competitors.

--
Best Buy can have you arrested
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 05:30 · Score: 1, Interesting

If you think about it, Apple really doesn't have any competition -- they only sell to the same small group of Mac Loyalists over and over again. It doesn't really matter how good/bad Apple is compared the compeitition, because the customer base has faith that Apple is 100% superior and has everything first.

But that explains how Apple can do things like reinvent Active Desktop/HTAs as "Dashboard" and sell it like it's the greatest new idea ever. Maybe they were just totally unaware that MS did 8 years ago.
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by julesh · 2004-09-04 06:07 · Score: 2, Insightful

Anyone making software would be nuts not to try the competitors product. I mean, surely Audi engineers try BMW's to see what they have to compete against, right?

I would expect the engineers to do this. I would expect the designers to do this. I would expect the marketing department to do this.

I would not expect the guy who runs the safety testing facility to do it.
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by snilloc · 2004-09-04 06:31 · Score: 3, Informative

Maybe not XP, but the "switch" campaign was aimed at 9x users. And yes, in 9x, my USB camera driver BSOD'd Windows. After much research I discovered that my cd burner software and my camera are incompatible. As a workaround, I wrote a batch file that switches out the offending file depending on which device I want to use - and even that requires a restart and I can't use both devices at the same time.
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by 0racle · 2004-09-04 07:28 · Score: 1

Yes but software is a religion here, so everyone is holding this up as a 'we won' as opposed to what it really is, just someone choosing to use something.

--
"I use a Mac because I'm just better than you are."
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by ocelotbob · 2004-09-04 07:50 · Score: 1

Why not? It seems to make sense to me. Crash the other guy's car and crash your car to see how each breaks, where things snap, etc, and then make suggestions to the engineers on how to make things better and safer.

--
Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by julesh · 2004-09-04 08:52 · Score: 1

I just don't see how doing this with a competitor's vehicle would help them. Doing it with their own they can identify flaws and devise ways to work around them. But what would crashing a competitor's car gain?
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by mantera · 2004-09-04 12:34 · Score: 1

"It's SMART to know what the competition is doing. I'd be disappointed in Microsoft if they didn't keep abreast of the competitors."... Yes, it's very very SMART of them to do that, and it's exactly how they became as big as they are now. They have cool business heads that will wait for someone else to test the market and endure the costs of doing so before they rush in with the hindsight of what works and what doesn't.
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by ocelotbob · 2004-09-04 18:25 · Score: 1

To try to see why their car fared better or worse. Basically, to let the engineers know things like, "hey, if we added an extra cross member, we could probably reduce the chances of a serious impact to the passenger. Company A has 5 cross members in their sports coupe and they fare better than our car which only has 4. Or less obvious methods, like angling, etc. Watching how similar products break can provide significant insight as to why your product breaks or doesn't break.

--
Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses
Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. by pxpt · 2004-09-04 21:11 · Score: 1

They have cool business heads that will wait for someone else to test the market and endure the costs of doing so before they rush in with the hindsight of what works and what doesn't.
Java. --> .NET !

that's 0.2 not 2.0 by rokzy · 2004-09-04 02:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

I tried it, it was okay but crashed a bit. plus I couldn't get it to say that an event lasted from a certain time on one day until a certain time several days later.

if they make it so I can sync with my P900 that'd be a big plus.

Re:that's 0.2 not 2.0 by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:31 · Score: 0

Maybe you checked the 'this event lasts all day button' by mistake? Otherwise, I can't see how you couldn't specify a starting and ending time on different days...
Re:that's 0.2 not 2.0 by rokzy · 2004-09-04 02:41 · Score: 1

when I tried 9am Sunday till 3pm Friday it made it 9am-3pm for each of Sunday-Friday which is not the same thing.
Re:that's 0.2 not 2.0 by h4rm0ny · 2004-09-04 05:57 · Score: 1

Okay, if this is the wish-list thread, then I need to be able to set the default calendar to something other than My Calendar. Also it would be nice if it sat in the bottom right of the toolbar on my windows system instead of a whole tab. It's perfectly usable though and pretty amazing for a beta version. I'll stick with it as it grows.

--

Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
Re:that's 0.2 not 2.0 by BMIComp · 2004-09-04 06:30 · Score: 1

Directly from the Sunbird website:
"At the moment Sunbird is in an experimental stage. Although it is quite stable, we recommend it for testing purposes only."
Re:that's 0.2 not 2.0 by horza · 2004-09-05 02:33 · Score: 1

if they make it so I can sync with my P900 that'd be a big plus.

If someone could write a Sunbird plug-in for Multisync then you wouldn't only be able to sync with your P900 and many other devices, you would be able to seamlessly switch between Evolution and Sunbird.

Phillip.

--
Property for sale in Nice, France

For those who don't want to RTFA by Monx · 2004-09-04 02:11 · Score: 4, Informative

It's a calendar application. That doesn't yet integrate with FireFox or Thunderbird. It's also at version 0.2, not 2.0.

Isn't the text at the top of this page supposed to be a summary?

Re:For those who don't want to RTFA by nwbvt · 2004-09-04 03:48 · Score: 1

Considering how inaccurate most /. summaries are anyways, I actually think this isn't bad. It forces people to RTFA instead of making dumbass comments based on some editor's crappy interpretation.

--
Mathematics is made of 50 percent formulas, 50 percent proofs, and 50 percent imagination.
Re:For those who don't want to RTFA by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 06:03 · Score: 0

You must be new here?

Actually... by Kjella · 2004-09-04 02:12 · Score: 4, Interesting

..for a Calendar program, it is. However, what you need is a high-level exchange format. Which is slightly differnt than the "deep system call" integration of Outlook/IE/Windows.

Kjella

--
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings

Re:Actually... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:58 · Score: 1, Interesting

Who knows what you mean by "deep system call" ... but the Mozilla.org plan is to seperate out the backend so that you can run Firefox, Thunderbird, and Sunbird without loading massive amounts of duplicate code into memory.

Mozilla has tons of infrastructure technology, but right now they are copy-pasting it into every application.
Re:Actually... by kfg · 2004-09-04 03:59 · Score: 5, Informative

Who knows what you mean by "deep system call"

He means calls to the system API, or even the kernel itself, to handle application level functions.

While embedding application level code at a low level can certainly reduce the amount of duplicate code in memory and provide a certain core "integration" of products written against that code it also means that a crash or security flaw of an application can be a crash or security flaw of the system itself which can only be corrected by rewriting system level code.

He suggests that data exchange between applications instead be accomplished by the simple expedient of applications using a common data exchange format. It's a radical concept, I know, but it just might work. Someone might want to start down this road by devising a simple binary code for the alphabet and numbers and stuff.

KFG
Re:Actually... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 05:25 · Score: 1, Insightful

The point is that Mozilla's XUL, MPR, etc basically the same as a "System API" -- it implements low-level functionality normally provided by the operating environment. (forget slashbotisms like 'IE in the kernel')

In other words, a Mozilla bug likely ALREADY affects Firefox, Thunderbird, Sunbird, etc, just like how Windows bug affects IE, OE, MS Office, etc. Except in Mozilla's case you need to patch each seperately.

Mozilla is "more than a browser, it's a development framework", remember? That means it has all the risks associated with shared code. In short, if you really want isolated applications, Mozilla is not for you.
Re:Actually... by Blakflag · 2004-09-04 07:11 · Score: 4, Interesting

I agree. I'm no expert, but I AM lazy so I spend a lot of timethinking about why programs have such trouble talking to each other.

How about this system: each program can save data nuggets for other programs in data "gifts" little chunks of data encoded in XML or other easy format. Then the other programs can look in their "gift inbox", and choose which stuff to integrate.

This has two advantages:

1. programs dont have to have access to other programs data files. The control is always in the hands of the destination app, because gifts can be rejected at any time.

2. programs dont have to understand other programs data stuctures, or adapt to changes in database format.

3. For security, there could be shared keys in each program, that the gifts get touched with. So a program can choose to accept or reject gifts based on source.

4. It can extend to multi system environments with shared inboxes.

I know thats 4 not 2 but I got carried away.

Any comments?

an example:
a URL "gift" could be sent to Firefoxes Bookmarks menu. A contact "gift" could be sent to Thunderbird's Address book.

--
*** DRINK MORE COFFEE ***
Re:Actually... by kfg · 2004-09-04 07:12 · Score: 2, Informative

The question you raise here is not whether a bug in Mozilla is a bug in the Firefox browser ( I consider that a tautology and uninteresting), but rather whether a bug in Mozilla is a bug in Windows.

There is an essential difference between having to end a task and restart it and having to reach for the big, red button; as well as an essential difference for a bug in an application to require a patch to the kernel.

As for your last point it just might be case that I want isolated applications because I want to run a Mozilla browser, but a Eudora mail client. Isolated applications allow you to mix and match, not simply run all the stuff in the monolithic app seperately.

In any case the point raised by the original poster, which I agreed with and expounded upon a bit, was that Mozilla should not handle data exchange at a low level and while OP rasied Windows as an example my own post was generic.

KFG
Re:Actually... by feidaykin · 2004-09-04 08:41 · Score: 1

As for your last point it just might be case that I want isolated applications because I want to run a Mozilla browser, but a Eudora mail client. Isolated applications allow you to mix and match, not simply run all the stuff in the monolithic app separately.
A very wise observation of course, yet I'm inclined to point out that which I'm sure you're already aware (and others have mentioned previously)... on the subject of ending task on a single program, obviously it is preferable to have only your browser bork on you rather than your browser and email client (especially if you're typing up a lengthy email). So even for people like me who run both Firefox and Thunderbird, there's yet another reason to pick them over the moz suite, including those the parent posters mentioned (such as the memory consumption).
Oh, by the way, I loved reading your Ewok dinning tips last night... most informative, I can't wait to put them to use!

--
"To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit." -Stephen Hawking
Re:Actually... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 08:48 · Score: 0

And what was the IE bug that required a kernel patch again?

I think your comments are fair, but Mozilla.org spent a lot of time developing 'low-level data exchange' code such as XPCOM, XUL, etc and they're damn well going to use them. Perhaps you should select another product.
Re:Actually... by ahdeoz · 2004-09-04 17:03 · Score: 1

But ascii doesn't Elvish, Klingon, or ancient Mandarin characters.
Re:Actually... by ahdeoz · 2004-09-04 17:25 · Score: 1

Yeah! Only let's ditch the XML, and make them persistable, provide some kind of transaction locking mechanism, and call these little "gifts" something else, something like "files"
Re:Actually... by ultranova · 2004-09-05 03:35 · Score: 1

Who knows what you mean by "deep system call" ... but the Mozilla.org plan is to seperate out the backend so that you can run Firefox, Thunderbird, and Sunbird without loading massive amounts of duplicate code into memory.

Isn't this a clear candidate for using a shared library ? Or is that what you meant by backend ?

Mozilla has tons of infrastructure technology, but right now they are copy-pasting it into every application.

A definite candidate for a shared library.

...Says the man who's never written a published non-trivial program...

--
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

What's that name? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:12 · Score: 2, Funny

What ever happened to Sunfox??

Re:What's that name? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:29 · Score: 0

They decided to use the name 'Foxbird Communicator XL' instead.
Re:What's that name? by Cyberdork · 2004-09-04 02:37 · Score: 1

Don't worry, the *bird name comes before the *fox name... they'll rename it in a few months.
Re:What's that name? by kfg · 2004-09-04 03:20 · Score: 2, Funny

It's waiting for the letter from Pontiac saying, "Dudes, wtf is with naming all your software after our cars?"

They'll probably rename it to Sunfire before moving on to Sunfox and I can't wait for the Mozilla standalone download manager: GTO.

Goatbird and Firegoat are really going to suck though.

KFG

Problems with remote calendars by manastungare · 2004-09-04 02:12 · Score: 3, Interesting

I've had trouble getting Sunbird to work with any Calendar but the default. Also, when downloading and publishing remote calendars, all I get is a blinking icon (of two rotating arrows), with no further progress. Is Sunbird *really* ready for the public yet? :)

Re:Problems with remote calendars by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:25 · Score: 0

No, of course not, it's still Alpha - but my experience with Mozilla Alpha software has been good up to this point so I welcome the option to try it out even this early in its development.
Re:Problems with remote calendars by manastungare · 2004-09-04 02:27 · Score: 1

Exactly, which is why this comes as a disappointment! I've begun to trust Mozilla Alphas many times more than Microsoft's been-through-testing-and-found-OK software.
Re:Problems with remote calendars by AlphaJoe · 2004-09-04 02:37 · Score: 1

I've had trouble getting Sunbird to work with any Calendar but the default. Also, when downloading and publishing remote calendars, all I get is a blinking icon (of two rotating arrows), with no further progress. Is Sunbird *really* ready for the public yet? :)

Tada!!!!! For those who don't pay attention before downloading and installing...
At the moment Sunbird is in an experimental, though quite stable stage. We offer no release builds at the moment, only builds intended for testing and development purposes.

--
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.
Re:Problems with remote calendars by dn15 · 2004-09-04 02:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

Is Sunbird *really* ready for the public yet? :)
No, which is why it is still at version 0.2. It is not being promoted to regular end-users, and few people outside of Slashdot and MozillaZine readers probably know it exists. It is good to have the application available for testing and bug-reporting purposes, but it is certainly not supposed to be used by the general public at this point.
Re:Problems with remote calendars by pulazzo · 2004-09-04 04:34 · Score: 1

I just started using it the other day with some friends that are using iCal. It's been working great, but I had the same problem initially.

It seems that Sunbird behaves as you suggested if you right click | New Calendar and type in a Location that doesn't exist (eventually it should create it automatically**).

What you should do is right click | New Calendar, no Location. Add at least one event (without one it will publish, but won't refresh a 0B calendar**). Then right click | Publish Entire Calendar (progress bar never seems to do anything for me**). I would then recommend right click | Edit Calendar and check the box for publish changes automatically.

** This is a nightly build of an alpha release.
Re:Problems with remote calendars by starrsoft · 2004-09-04 05:03 · Score: 1

Is Sunbird *really* ready for the public yet?

Of course not! Until it gets to 1.0, it isn't a stable build and not meant for the general public.

--
Read my blog: HansMast.com

Site's slow by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:12 · Score: 4, Informative

Software: Review of Mozilla's Sunbird Stand-Alone Calendar Application
Posted Sep 03, 2004 - 06:58 AM
Printer friendly page Print this story Send this story to a friend Email this to a friend

by Gareth Russell

Mozilla Sunbird is the latest stand-alone application from the Mozilla foundation that follows in the footsteps of now revered browser Firefox and email client Thunderbird. Gareth reviews their first public release, version 0.2.

(screenshots)

Sunbird is the new cross-platform calendar application from the Mozilla foundation. It is based around the existing Mozilla Calendar component and is the latest in a string of standalone applications from the foundation, which are gradually replacing the current Mozilla suite of applications. The aim of the project is to create a standalone calendar for someone who uses either Mozilla Thunderbird or Firefox as their email client or browser. Sunbird hopes to offer a reduced footprint and performance enhancement over the original Calendar component. Sunbird is still in the early stages of development and is certainly experimental software with version 0.2 having been released recently. Nonetheless Sunbird is a promising application for those of you already using Thunderbird or Firefox.

A word of warning though, as of the moment Sunbird does not integrate with Thunderbird or Firefox. It is purely a standalone project, although this is one of the tasks to be solved in the near future.

The most striking difference between Sunbird and its Calendar counterpart is the theme and visual identity. Sunbird has its own logo, which is somewhat similar to Thunderbird's along with a slick visual style that removes a lot of the harshness found in the default Calendar component's theme. If you're running Windows XP then this theme integrates well with the rest of your system. At the moment there is still no option to change the theme if you do not like it, although this should be expected in future builds.

The user interface is essentially the same as the Calendar components, this entails the use of a three or four framed system. A main frame provides an overview of the day, week, several weeks or month, whilst several sub frames provide information about events scheduled and tasks still to be completed. It is a flexible system that allows you to collapse windows to get the style you want but by default it feels rather unwieldy when it is compared to the more simplistic calendar components found in Outlook or Evolution due to the large number of windows on display.

There are some improvements that could be made to the user interface to make it more accessible to new users. Some of the more useful features are only available from the title menus these should be more easily accessible through the toolbar. For example a "New Task" button for the toolbar would be a welcome addition, instead of having to enter the "File Menu" to access it. Currently upon first glance, a user is left wondering whether or not such a function is available and only the task frame alerts you to its presence. The included keyboard shortcuts are of great use and once remembered they can dramatically speed up use of the program. As of yet there is no ability to change the shortcuts or to set up your own, but this is something to be expected from future releases.

Coloured tagging for events would also improve the interface of the application. Currently you cannot assign colours to event categories as you would in say Microsoft Outlook. These allow you to get a better overview of your calendar, as it is easier to relate colours to specific types of events rather than reading all of the available text. Coloured tagging could make the application appear less cluttered because you'd be able to get an easier overview of what is happening in the different windows.

The ability to create and maintain different calendars for different purposes is a nice touch although it does exist in other applications, but it is easier to move between the differe

two things... by mantera · 2004-09-04 02:17 · Score: 2, Insightful

1) Open it up for extensions, the way firebird is. 2) until it can sync with mobile devices (palm, pocketpc.. etc), i won't be implementing it.

Re:two things... by Myen · 2004-09-04 05:57 · Score: 2, Insightful

I have no idea about 2), but I've looked at 1) slightly (wanted to write an extension for it).

It will probably happen when all the extension code is ported from the branch to the trunk - currently, Sunbird needs to be built off the trunk of the mozilla.org CVS tree, but most of the extension manager stuff is in a CVS branch (from which Firefox 1.0 and Thunderbird something-or-other is supposed to build from).

I assume the Firefox people will port the EM stuff back into the trunk once Firefox 1.0 is done (since Firefox will eventually go there as well to pick up the Mozilla 1.8 stuff).

That, and ths Sunbird version number ("0.2a") is bad - the "a" breaks the version comparison scheme ([0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\.[0-9]+\+? with chunks optional).

Assuming the EM gets fixed, it will have to be open for extensions - Sunbird, like Ffx / Tbird / Seamonkey / etc., is XUL based, and the underlying mechanism (overlays) is basically built into XUL.

Innovation by Frankie70 · 2004-09-04 02:17 · Score: 3, Insightful

Screenshots

Looks identical to Outlook's Calendar, even menu option names etc.

OSS seems to be totally following the MS way, including very little innovation.

Re:Innovation by jrexilius · 2004-09-04 03:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

I agree, however, certain applications have reached a sort of commoditized maturity and dont really benefit from further additions.

Not to say that calendars couldn't improve. Sunbird could do things like allow for RSS feeds from public calendar sites such as a theoretical ticketmaster or local band, theater, sports team, etc.

You do a pub/sub thing and when you look at your calendar you can filter through events or ideas and see events that you may be interested in and when they are. Why browse 5-10 different web sites when are trying to schedule a cookout or meeting with clients?

In fact I have been thinking about adding publish/subscribe type features to some of my company's products.
Re:Innovation by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:40 · Score: 0

Sorry but Sunbirds interface doesnt look identical to outlook's.
Re:Innovation by LnxAddct · 2004-09-04 04:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

There aren't many ways to show a calendar. I've been using electronic calendars long before Outlook was ever out and they've always had similarities. The real test is the functionality behind them, which for Outlook and Sunbird is completely different, and both have their advantages/disadvantages. I personally don't think they look too similar, but regardless look at any groupware type application from the early 90's on and they all look not too different. How else would you propose to lay it out?
Regards,
Steve

'Sunbird?' by Chordonblue · 2004-09-04 02:30 · Score: 4, Funny

I dunno. I think it'll need at least three or four name changes before 1.0 gets released... :P

--
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."

Re:'Sunbird?' by Alsee · 2004-09-04 04:06 · Score: 0, Offtopic

I vote for BigBird! And it should set the default theme to white text and controls on a bright yellow background.

-

--
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Re:'Sunbird?' by Ziviyr · 2004-09-04 07:41 · Score: 1

Skyfish sounds like a good name for now...

--

Someone set us up the bomb, so shine we are!

Re:It is what IT is. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:31 · Score: 1, Funny

It is what IT is.

But is it what is it?

Re:It is what IT is. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:31 · Score: 0

It is, as IT was.

Re:Wait.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:34 · Score: 1, Insightful

Hmm... One thing it offers me over iCal is that I can actually run it on my PC. Thats pretty big to me...

Thanks for your time though.

My $.2 (or is it $2.0?) by KRzBZ · 2004-09-04 02:39 · Score: 2, Funny

1) Release early Beta, numbered .2
2) Wait for overeager slashdot submitter to make typo, bumping version a factor of 1.8
3)???
4)Profit!

Re:Wait.... by kryptkpr · 2004-09-04 02:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

First paragraph of TFA:

"Sunbird is the new cross-platform calendar application from the Mozilla foundation"

There ain't no iCal on Win32 nor Linux.

And as far as mozilla ripping off netscape, I think you have it backwards.. netscape is built on top of mozilla.

--
DJ kRYPT's Free MP3s!

Re:Wait.... by hermi · 2004-09-04 02:40 · Score: 1

yeah, and my pc is just a clone of an abacus.

there are plugin versions also by Artifex · 2004-09-04 02:42 · Score: 2, Informative

The plugin versions work in Firefox and and Thunderbird. Yet they're totally separate from any install of Sunbird you may also have. So you pretty much need to choose one or the other, or risk forgetting some appointments because you have the wrong instance loaded. They can import across, but they don't just share one calendar file, which makes no sense to me.

Also, the biggest problem I have: there is no way to make the alarm trigger a selectable sound? There's a checkbox to "play a sound," but that's it, and if it actually does make a sound, I can't hear it across the room. Sadly, even the alarm clock in Windows XP's Plus pack beats this with a wet noodle. (Except, of course, when the alarm clock just fails to trigger at the time, which is whenever you need it most)

--
Get off my launchpad!

Re:there are plugin versions also by FuzzzyLogik · 2004-09-04 02:50 · Score: 2, Informative

I'll say it again... look at the version number guys... 0.2 that's FAR FAR FAR away from 1.0 release. like all typical mozilla products it isn't totally usable until it gets around the .5 to .7 releases.. then from there it becomes much more useful from there on out... give it time, provide constructive criticism and give feedback... bitching on here about it (i know you weren't really but others are) isn't going to help, i bet most of the developers aren't going to read the slashdot comments to look for improvements to their product... email one of the developers or join a mailing list or something and provide some feedback.. what do you like? what do you not like? how can you make it better? what features do you think should be in 1.0? can you help out by providing code? there's a lot you can do if you just put a little bit of time into it .. i personally want this project to succeed because i use iCal on my powerbook and the .cal files from iCal work in sunbird which for me would be great for checking things out on my pc when i need to. :-P give it a try and see if you can't help.

--
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/
Re:there are plugin versions also by jdonnis · 2004-09-04 02:53 · Score: 1

Well, you could just place your calendarfile on a ftp or webdav server.

The main reason for me to use calendar/sunbird is so I have access to my private calendar from work and vice-versa.

Now all I really need more from calendar/sunbird is the ability to accept invitations and calendar bookings from Outlook as quite a lot of people at work use Outlook.
Re:there are plugin versions also by Artifex · 2004-09-04 03:23 · Score: 1

Well, I wasn't trying to complain so much as warn others will be racing to download it.

No, I don't program, so I won't be coding anything :)
I'd donate to Mozilla again, but I just quit my job and went majorly in debt for school. So... what can I do? :)

--
Get off my launchpad!
Re:there are plugin versions also by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 12:04 · Score: 0

for an alarmclock look into egg timer by sinner computing.

its quality!

Re:Wait.... by FuzzzyLogik · 2004-09-04 02:44 · Score: 5, Insightful

good grief man... look at the version number on that.. 0.2 there's plenty of time for them to innovate, let them get the basics done first then watch as the new useful features roll out... sit back and chill.. if you have such a problem why not go help the development... it's really not THAT hard to write some javascript and such for all that.. i guess if you don't program it might be kind of hard but it's fairly easy to pickup if you tried... the thing i'm trying to say though is to provide your input, if it's not what you want, then why not go suggest features or what have you? bitching isn't going to help, you need to provide constructive criticism and possible advancements...

--
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/

Duh... by Mister+Transistor · 2004-09-04 02:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

If there ever was a need for a "-1 Uninformed" mod this would be it.

You totally have your chickens and eggs backward.

Netscape comes from Mozilla, not the other way around. All of it's functionality is imported directly from the "development version", Mozilla. That's why now that we have a new stable Mozilla platform, lo and behold, Netscape 7.2 is announced!

As for the calendar app, it's a clone of Outlook's calendar page. With 100's of thousands of users already accustomed to using it's UI, there is a lot of sense into trying to make the user comfortable with a familiar look and feel. iCal is probably a similar clone of Outlook, hence the similarities.

--
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --

Re:Duh... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:04 · Score: 0

The OP said "Netscape Communicator" which was the name of version 4 suite.

Mozilla's feature set and UI was 100% decided by Netscape Inc/AOL product managers and the decsion really was to create pure clone of the older version's UI and featureset.

However, I would call Firefox more of an Internet Explorer clone ('tis smarter to clone a popular product than an unpopular one)
Re:Duh... by Zorilla · 2004-09-04 03:08 · Score: 1

As for the calendar app, it's a clone of Outlook's calendar page.

And before anybody bitches about Mozilla copying Microsoft in this regard, one needs only to take a look at Evolution.

--

It would be cool if it didn't suck.

It's version 0.2 by Halcyon-X · 2004-09-04 02:46 · Score: 1

Version 0.2 and you expect them to have the complete implementation of all planned 1.0 features? It's natural in an early version to have your application resemble what inspired it.

If they have the complete functionality of a completed application by version 0.2 I think they're doing pretty well...

--

.sig: Open Source, Open Mind

Damn that was quick! by nurb432 · 2004-09-04 02:47 · Score: 3, Funny

I just got .2 last night.. Already up to 2.0!

Sounds like someone was bored last night and couldn't sleep :)

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:Damn that was quick! by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 13:19 · Score: 0

Sounds like someone was bored last night and couldn't sleep :)

I hope you were refering to the (beta)testers

Re:Wait.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:47 · Score: 0

Come on, Mozilla, why can't you innovate any more? The mozilla suite is a clone of netscape communicator.
That's because it is!

Firefox is a clone of netscape navigator.
have you tried the extensions?

Thunderbird is netscape mail on steroids (basically a combo of Netscape Mail and Apple's mail.app).
what part of steroids are not innovative? The filters? Or maybe the e-mail thread view?

And now Sunbird is a direct iCal ripoff...
it's also a version 0.2. so, perhaps it's just
starting out on solid ground.

Re:Wait.... by poulbailey · 2004-09-04 02:47 · Score: 1

> The mozilla suite is a clone of netscape communicator. Firefox is a clone of netscape navigator.

You have never used Mozilla or Firefox, have you?

Sincerely by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:47 · Score: 0

I greatly appreciate the effort of these guys in bringing us great software under the GPL. I personally use the browser and the mail client and recommend them whenever I can. I think I will try the calendar application too.

Somebody can tell me how do I filter this stories?

the award for most ridiculous comparison by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:48 · Score: 0

goes to...

"Firefox is a clone of netscape navigator."

OH, and BTW... by ScottGant · 2004-09-04 02:50 · Score: 5, Informative

It's a calendar application

--

"Music is everybody's possession. It's only publishers who think that people own it." - John Lennon.

Re:It is what IT is. by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:50 · Score: 1, Funny

That depends on what your definition of "is" is.

Re:Wait.... by FuzzzyLogik · 2004-09-04 02:53 · Score: 1

Agreed. I love iCal but this gives me the ability to view my calendars on my pc too or other people who don't have a mac to view my calendars on their pc's and subscribing to my calendars.. THAT will be useful for me for sure.

--
Kyle
http://www.unlogikal.net/

Obligatory anal-retentive criticism by Gramie2 · 2004-09-04 02:54 · Score: 1

Bumping version a factor of 10

Incrementing version a factor of 1.8

Apple and Mozilla are both missing the point... by amper · 2004-09-04 02:54 · Score: 4, Interesting

What we really need is a replacement for the amazing CS&T/Netscape/Steltor/Oracle "CorporateTime" (nee Calendar Server).

Woo hoo. WebDAV. Could I be any *less* excited? WebDAV calendars are not going to replace a *real* calendaring/scheduling system any time soon...

Unfortunately, even open-source project I've seen that has attempted to tackle this problem has very quickly fallen apart.

Please, somebody, take a look at Corporate Time or the older Netscape Calendar Server. *That's* what we need. An LDAP-integrated, replicable, multi-user calendaring/scheduling system with a web client that was pretty much the equal of the full client application and integrated quite nicely with the email client.

Netscape SuiteSpot is what made Netscape Communicator Pro make sense. If anyone out there in a development team would like it, I would be more than happy to provide a copy of my my old SuiteSpot CD for reference/testing purposes...

Re:Apple and Mozilla are both missing the point... by amper · 2004-09-04 03:03 · Score: 3, Informative

BTW, Netscape also wrote some fairly insightful white papers and such on what the requirement were for a successful C&S solution. Much of it is still available at:

http://wp.netscape.com/calendar/v3.5/
Re:Apple and Mozilla are both missing the point... by robla · 2004-09-04 06:35 · Score: 2, Interesting

I believe that's the point of Open-Xchange. However, I haven't been able to assertain whether or not the system allows for the type of group scheduling that CorporateTime does. It would seem that the WebDAV protocol would be a bottleneck, but perhaps there's enough backend smarts to make the integration/permissions management of multiple calendars rather seamless.

The mental hurdle that I have with WebDAV systems is how to implement the ability for someone else to add an unconfirmed meeting to your calendar. With WebDAV, it would seem you either have read access (no additions at all), or write access (add anything you want, including confirmed meetings and deleting other meetings). Specialized calendaring protocols can compartmentalize this type of thing.

Rob
Re:Apple and Mozilla are both missing the point... by transient · 2004-09-04 09:13 · Score: 2, Funny

CorporateTime is awesome. We still use it where I work, although I'm a little worried that it's in Oracle's hands now. In a year we'll have a version of CorporateTime that is impossible to install without logging a TAR, installing fifty bazillion patches, and tweaking twenty kernel parameters.

--

irb(main):001:0>

Re:Wait.... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:55 · Score: 0

The mozilla suite is a clone of netscape communicator. Firefox is a clone of netscape navigator. Yeah, well M$IE is a clone of Mosaic. At least the Mozilla people rewrote the browser code. M$ simply stole Mosaic code and built upon it. Kinda like what they did with the BSD networking stack.

Works great for me. by Mustang+Matt · 2004-09-04 02:55 · Score: 1

I've had it working for quite some time now.

--
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin

Exactly... by dn15 · 2004-09-04 02:56 · Score: 1

Parent is absolutely correct. Sunbird is very early in development and it is reasonable that any calendaring app would look like the rest when they are still just getting the most basic functionality in place. Watch future releases and I'm sure a few distinguishing features will appear.

which planet are you from? by alphan · 2004-09-04 02:57 · Score: 2, Informative

they would probably be converging into one application.

Everthing actually comes from the mozilla suite which is ONE APPLICATION.

Sunbird is stand alone implementation of Mozilla Calendar (ext), similar to browser (Firefox), or email (Thunderbird)

Re:which planet are you from? by FooAtWFU · 2004-09-04 03:43 · Score: 1

Yes, but these projects are ripping all the components out and doing them again, more cleanly, more efficiently, without all the horrible bloat that the suite had. Supposedly they will replace the suite at some point.

--
The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
Re:which planet are you from? by bubkus_jones · 2004-09-04 05:57 · Score: 1

Maybe it was sarcasm???

It's different by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 02:58 · Score: 0

As a person who uses it daily, I can say that it is different. There may be some similarities to the menus, etc. but the actually calendar part does behave quite differently than outlook.

Re:Dyslexic Version 2.0 - Real Version 0.2 by heptapod · 2004-09-04 02:58 · Score: 1

Actually that would be dyscalculia not dyslexia.

Thanks for playing.

Close, but I think I'll stick with Evolution by Shayde · 2004-09-04 02:58 · Score: 1

I don't quite get where they're going with this. I'll have to assume it's a simple pre-release, run from there.

I use Evolution for all things that folks would associate with Outlook. Contact management, calendaring, and email. It does all of these pretty well, and I'm a pretty heavy-duty email user - going from a curses based mail client to Evolution was a lot easier than I thought, and I haven't lost any functionality (and sure as nuts gained some).

Evolution's integrated calendar + contact management is functional, complete, and works -great- with WebDAV based calendar servers. 1.4.x does not have automatic publishing, but since Evolution uses ical format calendars by default, a simple 'scp foo.ics' up to the webdav server instantly publishes your calendar. (we use phpiCalendar for calendar sharing).

I applaud Mozilla's project, more ical based applications means wider acceptance of the standard, but for now I'll stick with Evolution.

--
Event Management Solutions : http://www.stonekeep.com/

Re:Close, but I think I'll stick with Evolution by CdBee · 2004-09-04 03:24 · Score: 2, Informative

Please bear in mind though, that until such a time as Evolution will either run on Windows or cleanly compile on CYGWIN, these Mozilla apps are the best OSS PIM app available to many users.

--
I have been a user for about 10 years. This ends Feb 2014. The site's been ruined. I'm off. Dice, FU
Re:Close, but I think I'll stick with Evolution by rollthelosindice · 2004-09-04 03:28 · Score: 1

If you are using `scp` to transfer the ics file to the server, you dont need/aren't using webDAV, you are just using a web server. webDAV entails directly writing the file to the server over HTTP.
Re:Close, but I think I'll stick with Evolution by DrJonesAC2 · 2004-09-04 10:53 · Score: 1

Agreed, I am exited for this because now I can have a consistent suite of applications between OSes (when it's a little farther along anyway).

Serving is the key by Ars-Fartsica · 2004-09-04 02:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

Its nice to see more standards compliant calendar browsers out there, but whats key is that server side solutions (Yahoo Calendar) adopt open standards so we can share calendar data, which to me is the entire point. To me this type of application is mostly about advertising when I am and am not available...so sharing with other calendaring clients is crucial.

Re:Wait.... by igrp · 2004-09-04 03:00 · Score: 1

Well, Mozilla is not Netscape, as you obviously know. But they are related (in the sense, that Firefox, Sunbird, etc. are the next iteration and not just merely single components of one big suite).

Mozilla grew out of Netscape's decision to release the Navigator source code in '98 or '99. I won't go so far as to say they share the same codebase but they they are related.
Hence, it's not really fair to call Firefox a clone.

Regarding the GUI, I must say that I agree with you, at least in part. It's neither the worst nor the best I've ever seen and I can see why people (especially those who are used to the OS X interface) would consider it sub-par. I hope that will change Sunbird becomes skin-able.

The one cal/time management application I personally liked the most was the original Palm Desktop (the one that came with the old Palm IIIs). One nicely designed, fast, relatively small application that just worked.

Palm Pilot. by maeka · 2004-09-04 03:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

Wake me up when it can sync with my Palm.

Re:Mozilla tries the unintegrated method. [OT] by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:03 · Score: 0

Is this an advert for or against the bible?
'Cos if it's for then you have me sold!

Summaries by nurb432 · 2004-09-04 03:04 · Score: 1

Yes, they are *supposed* to be an accurate summarization of the story so people don't have to read the damned articles..

But.. time and time again, the summaries are either inaccurate or important facts are left out.. Seems to be getting worse

--
---- Booth was a patriot ----

Re:Dyslexic Version 2.0 - Real Version 0.2 by Zorilla · 2004-09-04 03:05 · Score: 2, Informative

Even when it involves mixing up numbers just the same as a string of characters, making it no different than dyslexia? No crappy calculations occured here to come up with this erroneous result, it was just a typo.

--

It would be cool if it didn't suck.

But someone needs to *run* these servers by Ars-Fartsica · 2004-09-04 03:07 · Score: 1

Is the party running the server going to be reliable and capable of handling load? It'll take a Google or a Yahoo adopting truly open calendaring to make this happen. As a stricly client-side app I agree this is useless.

Server-side bookmarking, calendaring, IMAP...where is my open standards serving company?

Re:But someone needs to *run* these servers by rherbert · 2004-09-04 03:39 · Score: 1

He doesn't want someone to run the calendar server for him. Yahoo! already has one, as long as using their web client is sufficient. He wants to run the calendar server himself.

Don't forget the extensions for Firefox/Tbird by A_Non_Moose · 2004-09-04 03:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

Don't know if the full functionality is there, haven't tested it yet, but the Firefox extension seems to work quite well.

The Thunderbird extension is a different story, because the extension system does not seem to be in place. I followed the directions to go to tools -> options -> extensions button, and there is no extensions button. :(

A failing of Thunderbird 0.7.3, it seems, maybe it is in the nightlies, dunno.

All I can say is: If Sunbird follows the kick-ass nature of Firefox/Tbird, this seperate "suite" is going to be perfect, IMO.

Heck, Firefox fixed (read: got rid of) the find toolbar, and Thunderbird would be perfect if they added a "Sync" button to avoid the File -> offline -> download/sync -> press enter if setup, but remember it only is available if you've clicked on your PRIMARY ACCOUNT/Folders.

Arugh!
Yet more clicking and re-accessing the menu.

C'mon guys (and gals) I LIKE buttons that make life easier.

Heck, I like blinky lights and shiney objects, too!

OOOoooo!

Where was I?

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Re:Don't forget the extensions for Firefox/Tbird by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:44 · Score: 1, Informative

The Thunderbird extension is a different story, because the extension system does not seem to be in place. I followed the directions to go to tools -> options -> extensions button, and there is no extensions button. :(

Tried the 'Tools | Extensions' menu?

NOT stand-alone. by DogDude · 2004-09-04 03:10 · Score: 2, Informative

I'm not sure what these developers are talking about. It CAN install as an extension to either Firefox or Thunderbird, OR you can install it stand-alone. I'd link to the page, but update.mozilla.org seems to be down right now. I absolutely installed it yesterday as an extension to both Thunderbird and Firefox, and stand-alone. Unfortunately, you can install it these 3 ways, and each one is a separate database. ie: Accessing the calendar from Firefox will not show you the same data as when you access it via Thunderbird.

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Re:NOT stand-alone. by synopsis5 · 2004-09-04 04:14 · Score: 1

See the Calendar/Sunbird FAQ on local calendars.

What type of journalism is this... by danheskett · 2004-09-04 03:22 · Score: 3, Insightful

...I know this might be undue but..

Not everyone knows what Sunbird is. I know from the article teaser above that it's from Mozilla, and it's like Firefox. So it's a browser, like firefox? Or an e-mal client like Thunderbird?

In the future, you may get better response by telling us exactly what it is being reviewed.

Re:What type of journalism is this... by gordgekko · 2004-09-04 10:07 · Score: 1

> Or an e-mal client like Thunderbird?

No, you only get mal(ware) through Outlook.

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Sunbird's OK but kinda buggy by explorer · 2004-09-04 03:23 · Score: 5, Interesting

Sunbird's OK, I use it. But it's kinda buggy and limited. WebDAV is clunky and doesn't really work well. If you have dreams of publishing your departments calendars on a web server and scheduling group meetings (avoiding conflicts) like with Outlook/Exchange, forget it. It's really only useful for putting your own calendar up on a web server so you can schedule stuff from home, work, the road, etc.

And like I said, it's buggy. For example, I sucked in my old Outlook calendar in ical format using a converter, and it kinda puked on recurring appointments with exceptions. In fact, it appears that if you have a weekly meeting but you try to delete more than 5 or so of the individual recurrences, it starts forgetting about some of them! Pretty annoying. As a result, the old Outlook habit of setting up a weekly dept meeting, and then hitting delete on individual meetings that are cancelled doesn't work with Sunbird.

Still looking for a decent group calendaring app for UNIX users.

Exchange Server? by DogDude · 2004-09-04 03:25 · Score: 2, Interesting

In other words, it sounds like you're saying that Mozilla needs an equivalent of Exchange Server?

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Re:Exchange Server? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 03:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

"Netscape SuiteSpot" was an equivalent of Exchange Server (although it sold poorly).

Anyway ... the only reason that Netscape 4 came in a "suite" was to move server licences. Mozilla cloned the client suite, but forgot the Corp Groupware rationale behind it.

Revered? by tbuck · 2004-09-04 04:15 · Score: 1

"now revered browser Firefox and email client Thunderbird" I like Firefox as much as the next guy, I'm using it right now, but Reverence? Please. Let's not take ourselves too seriously here. Now to get back to watching Frances come for my back yard... tbuck

Re:Revered? by I+confirm+I'm+not+a · 2004-09-04 06:02 · Score: 1

I like Firefox as much as the next guy, I'm using it right now, but Reverence? Please.

To misquote the late, great, Bill Shankly -
Some people think using Firefox is a life of death issue. It's not. It's much more important than that.

;)

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This is where the serious fun begins.

Come on! by Orion+Blastar · 2004-09-04 04:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

#1 It is 0.2, very early in development, don't expect much until it gets closer to 1.0, pluuueesseee!

#2 Of course it looks like Outlook Calendar, until MS Sues and then it will look like something else.

#3 No Synch, yet, see #1.

#4 It is a basic calendar app, no frills, see #1.

#5 Some day, the Mozilla development teams, will find a way to Integrate Thunderbird, Firefox, and Sunbird into something more productive. Just not today.

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Re:Come on! by DuncMan · 2004-09-06 03:41 · Score: 1

#5 Some day, the Mozilla development teams, will find a way to Integrate Thunderbird, Firefox, and Sunbird into something more productive. Just not today.

Presumably the integration framework will be called Sunderfox.

some integration would be nice by Jafa · 2004-09-04 04:20 · Score: 1

I really like the concept of slim and fast stand alone apps, but some integration is going to be required. For instance, contacts. You can use the same list of contacts for calendar and email. Where should the contacts be stored? What if you install one app, use it for a while and build up a contacts list, then install the other app? What if I access my calendar remotely, can I easily add a meeting with certain contacts? When I get back to my home computer, will my email app pick up those contacts?

This is just one example of some integration that would be welcome and some questions that should help guide it's implementation. Others could be themes (across all apps), and html composing (email and browser/editor)

J

Re:some integration would be nice by Dizzle · 2004-09-04 04:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

Seems like it would be simple enough for mozilla to have a common folder for usage with all the programs. I think they have install directories and preferences (data too) stored in separate folders, but there's 3 programs for them to use. That means 6 folders. If they kept the preferences folders unified, that should amount to a huge benefit. Of course, IANAP, so I could be wrong. Or maybe I'm stating the obvious...

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-Dizzle
"I most likely AM so interested in myself."

In your summary... by callipygian-showsyst · 2004-09-04 04:22 · Score: 2, Insightful

you could have said what it was! I clicked on the link saying to myself "Please! Let it be a calendar app!" and, fortunately, it was.

--
Best Buy can have you arrested

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2004-09-04 04:23 · Score: 1

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2004-09-04 04:26 · Score: 1

Comment removed based on user account deletion

My biggest opensource gripe. by gregm · 2004-09-04 04:37 · Score: 1

"Mozilla Sunbird is the latest stand-alone application from the Mozilla foundation that follows in the footsteps of now revered browser Firefox and email client Thunderbird. OSDir reviews their first public release, version 0.2. Screenshots included."

How friggin hard would it have been to slip the word "calendaring" in between "stand-alone" and "application"? So many sites on soruceforge don't even tell you what the hell the software does... sometimes you can figure it out by reading through the changelog and sometmes they actually tell you on some obscure page on the site but not always.

At least the actuall sunbird site tells you what it is right away.

Stupid article, stupid exerpt of the article to post on slashdot.

Heh... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 05:23 · Score: 0

One might've thought that it was just another name generated by the Firesomething extension ;)

Re:Heh... by Jugalator · 2004-09-04 06:12 · Score: 1

One might've thought that it was just another name generated by the Firesomething extension ;)

Yep, but once again it's a name not taken out of the blue (I thought Firefox was before I had heard there actually was such an animal).

Sunbird isn't a reference to the code names Phoenix (or Firebird) either, but to this bird.

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Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
Re:Heh... by The+Lost+Supertone · 2004-09-04 09:19 · Score: 1

Uhh... if they're not doing it because of Firefox and Thunderbird... and they're really paying homage to this bird... why is the icon green?

Yeah, the article was stupid, BUT.... by slappyjack · 2004-09-04 05:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

I have to say I really dig Sunbird, except maybe for the name.

No, the app isnt ready for prime time just yet, but I've played with it and I really dig it for what it is.

Like most of the mozilla family, Sunbird just sits there waiting to be told what to do. It's FAR from robust at this point, but for a single user that has trouble remembering family birthdays, its not a bad little application. It'll come up to speed eventually, and the fact that with a little toying around I managed to store the calendar inside my hosted website and can have the up-to-date calendar on whatever machine I use is fantastic.

For you guys bitching that it wont automatically synch with whatever youre using: for christ's sake, spend 40 minutes learning perl and you can munge that file into just about fomat you need.

I look forward to the day when Sunbird grows up and is no longer just another open source beta.

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s'wut i sed.

It does. by Vess+V. · 2004-09-04 05:37 · Score: 3, Informative

Tools > Subscribe to remote calendar...

Re:It does. by jrexilius · 2004-09-04 06:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

sorta, it relies on webdav and iCal and is an open standard but I was thinking of a method that might be easier for existing web sites to add. adding an RSS feed or a SOAP service is often easier for existing app servers/developers/packages, then adding webdav and iCal. not that they are really that different in difficulty but I could see a lot of, perhaps, mental barriers to the webdav/ical method.

What's the point... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 05:39 · Score: 0

...of reviewing a version 0.2 public beta?

Summary of article: Sunbird looks pretty and promising. It's missing features x, y, and z. But don't worry, I'm sure those will be included at some point.

iCal compatibility? by SuperBanana · 2004-09-04 06:00 · Score: 1

On top of the webDAV server support Sunbird saves its files to Apple's open iCal standard which allows for a degree of interoperability between the two applications and platforms.

That's new, because a few months ago, Mozilla wouldn't even show the TITLE or TIME AND DATE of a calendar entry created with iCal and published to a webDAV server, or vise-versa. It was pretty pathetic that compatibility was broken on such a basic level between two apps which claimed to be using the same standard. If things have changed, I applaud it sincerely.

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For Your Information by Laebshade · 2004-09-04 06:00 · Score: 1

Mozilla does not release their products under GPL. They have their own license, the Mozilla Public License (MPL).

Re:For Your Information by Xtifr · 2004-09-04 09:59 · Score: 1

From my /usr/share/doc/mozilla-browser/copyright file:

"Some files in this source package are under the Netscape Public License. Others, under the Mozilla Public license, and just to confuse you even more, some are dual licensed MPL/GPL."

Also see the Mozilla Relicensing FAQ. The ulimate goal is to have all of the code (except some external libraries with permissive licenses, like libjpeg or libpng) to be triple-licensed under the MPL, GPL and LGPL.

Don't forget Chandler by sphealey · 2004-09-04 06:00 · Score: 4, Informative

If you are looking for a FOSS calendar solution, don't forget to take a look at Chandler. They have had some project difficulties, but they are well-funded.

sPh

Critical features missing by akratic · 2004-09-04 06:14 · Score: 5, Funny

Will it let me set an appointment for December 3rd by typing "M-e C-f M-e C-f C-f C-f i d Important Meeting C-x C-s"? Will it tell me when sunset will be in Dublin, Georgia exactly forty-seven weeks from today when I type ". C-u 47 C-n S -82.9 RET +32.33 RET"? Will it schedule a monthly appointment on the fifth day of every month of the Hebrew lunar calendar when I type "g h RET Tishri RET 5 RET i h m It's the fifth day of the month! C-x C-s"?

I'll be sticking with the Emacs calendar, thanks.

Re:Critical features missing by ainsoph · 2004-09-04 15:55 · Score: 1

werd!!

Logo by asdren · 2004-09-04 06:16 · Score: 1

I like the logo they chose
http://axentra.net/www/sunbird/logo_contest .html

but the orange one more
http://axentra.net/www/sunbird/logo_contest_ set1.h tml

Integration with other programs/devices by Jammet · 2004-09-04 06:22 · Score: 2, Informative

Unless this thing will be able to hotsync to a Palm Pilot or a Pocket PC, I see little use in actually using this calendar. I hope that is planned, and I could find a single reference to that sort of thing in the article (by word-search). It's a little length, so - if anyone's already read all through or has some more background info, please tell us wether this is a planned addition or already within it's options.

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Leopard cub

Comments from the future! by gad_zuki! · 2004-09-04 06:29 · Score: 3, Funny

Dude, Moonchicken .4 is out!

Hey, did you hear Marsdove .5 is out?

Whoa, Son of MoonChicken .6 is out already?

I really don't like the default theme in Helioavian .7.

Crap, Venuspigeon .8 keeps crapping all over my system.

What do you mean your organization isn't Denny's SuperChicken .8b compatible? What about FordFalcon .7RC2?

Finally SunFireBirdThing 1.0 is released!

Re:Comments from the future! by Spunk · 2004-09-07 02:39 · Score: 1

Hey! I know where you can get an advance copy of all of these!

(Posted using Verizon Seapony)

Good job by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 06:54 · Score: 0

Very good. WebDAV support is what will have me to give it a try. People use calendar on their main computer, and also at home, in the street, on various computer. A Client/Server calendar system is the best bet.

Other than that, I read that standalone Mozilla applications are aimed at replacing the Mozilla suite. I hope it's not. I hope there will be always the Mozilla suite updated. On powerful computers, I like to use Mozilla because I have all I need in just one application (Internet, Email, Address Book, IRC). On less powerful hardware, I launch one application at a time to use less system resource, hence the need for standalone applications as well.

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Charles.
http://www.auriance.com

Ob. criticism criticism by Pius+II. · 2004-09-04 07:01 · Score: 1

A "factor" is part in a multiplication. In an addition, it's a summand.

"Today I am gonna crash my BMW... by Gnavpot · 2004-09-04 07:14 · Score: 1

... and tomorrow I will crash one of our Audis. After that, I will compare body injuries." Yes, this is probably the thoughts of the guy who runs the safety testing facility.

It's not Apple's iCal standard by masterfres · 2004-09-04 08:06 · Score: 4, Informative

The article confuses iCal, Apple's calendaring iApp, with iCal, short for iCalendar, the widely used vcal derived calendering format standard. Apple did not create iCal the standard. iCal the standard predated iCal, Apple's application, by quite some time. Apple's iCal the calendering app was one of the first major applications to adopt iCalendar/iCal/vcal the standard (although Ximian/Novell's Evolution beat them to it.) I'm still trying to decide if coopting the name iCal was a purposeful attempt to associate the standard with their application or just an unfortunate, but beneficial, mistake. Confusions like this make me hope that they name some future apps "iNoVeryFastComputer" or "iNoMindStretchingTheTruth" or simply "iSuck".

Re:It's not Apple's iCal standard by Baricom · 2004-09-04 15:45 · Score: 2, Informative

Apple did not create iCal the standard.

Quite right. In fact, in a twist of irony, the prinicpal authors of RFC 2445 are F. Dawson of Lotus and D. Stenerson of Microsoft.

Sometimes, I really wish Outlook 2002 had an iCalendar exporter (it does import iCalendar files, but it'll only export CSV).

Standalone Composer? by istewart · 2004-09-04 08:18 · Score: 1

Are there any plans to make a standalone Composer alongside the browser/email/calendar apps? I used Composer to make my first (admittedly not impressive) webpages, and I think self-expression on the Web would benefit from a free, widely-available, easy to use HTML authoring app.

Re:Wait.... by GeekDork · 2004-09-04 08:29 · Score: 1

I hope that will change Sunbird becomes skin-able.

What the hell has become of the notion to just use the fucking OS/DE widget set ferchissake? Hey, look, now the buttons are bright green on bright red and 3 pixels wide! Hey COOL, Winamp looks like a fucking seizure-causing ad banner! It's not cool having to use a magnifying glass to use applications at screen resolutions over 50 DPI!

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New Calendar by HobophobE · 2004-09-04 08:36 · Score: 1

I'm wondering if and when... well if I weren't a luser I'd read for myself and see... basically, are there already available different calendar versions (ie, Jewish, Muslim, etc.)? And if so, how difficult would it be for me to create my own breed of calendar, setting up years, months, and dates, as well as days of the week from scratch?

Yes, I will try to find out myself, but the beauty of interaction is maybe someone who reads this already knows.

Thanks.

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-HobophobE
Nothing laughs forever.

Re:Wait.... by nacturation · 2004-09-04 08:51 · Score: 1

And as far as mozilla ripping off netscape, I think you have it backwards.. netscape is built on top of mozilla.

He specifically said Netscape communicator which was the original closed-source Netscape browser. It wasn't until years later that the Mozilla project started. To make matters more confusing, Netscape used the internal name of Mozilla for their closed-source browser, which was used as the name to spawn the open source version.

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Try Nvu by theguywhosaid · 2004-09-04 08:55 · Score: 2, Informative

Nvu is fairly rockin if you ask me. Even if you don't, its still at least good.

Re:Try Nvu by Hal+XP · 2004-09-04 12:08 · Score: 1

Well, this seems to be the Composer-equivalent of Firebird and Thunderbird. The site says it's Gecko-based like Firebird and Mozilla, and a standalone app like Firebird and Thunderbird.

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yer both wrong! by Xtifr · 2004-09-04 09:39 · Score: 1

Multiplying by 10 would yield 0.20 ("zero point twenty")

Adding 1.8 would yield 1.10 ("one point ten")

Version numbers aren't decimals, y'know. :p

stupid game by Anonymous Coward · 2004-09-04 09:56 · Score: 0

I can't even get exp for completing tasks! What kind of a game is this supposed to be?!

I hope it's faster than thunderbird... by AtlanticCarbon · 2004-09-04 11:43 · Score: 1

I find firefox to be adequately speedy on my 900mhz duron. However thunderbird is lethargic. Recently I've just used the web yahoo mail interface because thunderbird is so slow. I'm reticent about using sunbird if it shares thunderbird's speed problems. Also, for people with high-speed connections it seems like having the data on a server is the best solution because you can access it from whereever you are. For PIM information, this is really important.

Is there an online calendar like Sunbird? by Oyjord · 2004-09-04 18:53 · Score: 1

I downloaded Sunbird and really like it. But I use a number of different computers in many different places, and I don't want to have to install Sunbird on them all (let alone deal with synching issues). Is there an online calendar, say, similar to the Webnotes (http://www.aypwip.org/webnote) posted here earlier? I know about hotmail and yahoo mail having calendars, but I really don't like them and don't want to support them (esp since I'm using Gmail now). Thanks for any tips, Oy.

What is it? by dtietze · 2004-09-04 20:40 · Score: 1

Would it really be too much to ask to simply include two or three words in the /. article telling us *what* Sunbird is? "stand-alone application" is not really very enlightening. Dan.

208 comments