Tivo and Netflix Partner For DVDs on Demand

Tonetheman writes "The details are not really there yet, but it looks like Tivo and Netflix are going to team up! This is great for those who watch a lot of DVD's. You will be able to order a DVD and have it appear sometime later on the Tivo. Blockbuster will not be far behind with your favorite cable company."

Comments

dude this is huge!

[Anonymous Coward]

dude this is huge!

Re:dude this is huge!

[flewp]

dude this is huge!

I've heard that so many times it's lost all meaning.

Re:dude this is huge!

[Anonymous Coward]

About your ass, I assume?

~~~

TiVo is on its last legs.

[Ass, Ltd. Ho!]

This is a desperate move from a desperate company. Who cares about TiVo anymore? My Time Warner box gives me DVR functions for $5/mo and i don't have to buy any hardware. Remind me why I should buy a $300 box and THEN pay $12.95 per month?

FP BITCHES.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[SpootFinallyRegister]

or, you could switch to directv, and get the box for $40 and tivo service for $4 a month. at least here you could.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Seth Finklestein]

You can just buy a TiVo for $100 after rebate, modify it by placing a 320 GB hard drive in it, and sign up for the $300 package.

Your Time Warner DVR is DRM-encumbered and cannot do the sophisticated artificial intelligence technology that makes my TiVo so mind-meltingly superiour.

Sincerely,
Seth Finklestein
All-Knowing DVR Oracle

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[FuzzzyLogik]

On it's last leg but it continues to try to find new ways to innovate while your cable company and satellite company continue to rip off their ideas? Maybe so but who's coming up with the good ideas and implementing them in such a way that it just works? Tivo created the DVR, you can bet they've got a few ideas up their sleaves yet... i for one will buy a tivo and a netflix account if this hits :)

My problem with directv was that you needed a phoneline to use their boxes, blah on that, tivo let's me use broadband which i don't mind running cat5 to my tv, but why should i run a flipping phoneline to my tv? doesn't make sense. comcast might have a similar option but ya know... i can't even get it in my area yet, or if i can i have to have the bastards bring out another box, who knows how long that'll take, they still haven't come and picked up their crappy cable modem that died on me that has been in it's box for a good year now.

I welcome this kind of service.. now hopefully it's cheaper for netflix to do this over the net than it is to send it in the mail and i don't have to pay $20/mo for this type of service.. which i think is kinda high for my own personal viewing habits.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[jandrese]

Because without Tivo your cable company is going to go back to doing what it always does. Never innovate and always raise prices. It took Tivo to get them off of their butts and finally implement DVR. You still can't stream MP3s or anything else to your cable box (which is handy when your stereo is attached to your TV). I don't know about your area, but in mine the "video on demand" service is a joke, there are like 50 movies on it and they're all summer movie crap, and they're fairly expensive to rent. If the Tivo/Netflix partnership goes well, that service could be greatly improved (and reduced in price) while your local monopoly tries their hardest to squash their competition.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Anonymous Coward]

If you're on Time Warner, then you're the bitch.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Anonymous Coward]

try to find new ways to innovate while your cable company and satellite company continue to rip off their ideas

This is Slashdot. You are not allowed to compete based on innovation, as that requires some sort of notion of intellectual property and patent protection, lest the good ideas simply be copied by others that compete on other grounds.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Ass, Ltd. Ho!]

Actually, I agree with you to some extent. I was going to mention this, but I was in a hurry to get FP (and I failed anyway goddammit).

However, I don't see how TiVo is going to continue to compete with actual content providers. The Time Warner box in question (Scientific Atlanta 8000HD) can handle HDTV, something the cheap-ass $100 TiVo cannot. So now we're talking about a relatively expensive initial investment for the TiVo hardware.

I'm a hardware nerd, and totally happy to hack a TiVo to 320GB, but most people aren't. Remember that.

As for the $300 package, $300 would buy me five years worth of TWC DVR service. I find it highly unlikely anyone will *really* be using that 5 year old modded TiVo at that point. Maybe some people would, but I'm usually much faster on the electronics upgrade cycle than that.

As far as I can tell, the TiVo's widely-celebrated interface is the only advantage it has, and I'm afraid people aren't going to want to pay what is suddenly a VERY large price difference just for that. Especially people who have never USED both interfaces.

I would MUCH rather see a company like TiVo succeed, instead of Time Warner. But I have to admit TWC is getting my $5/mo, and Tivo isn't getting a dime. :(

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Ass, Ltd. Ho!]

I don't know about your area, but in mine the "video on demand" service is a joke,

Agreed about VOD, but in my area TWC has just introduced actual DVR boxes. Scientific Atlanta Explorer 8000HD.

I haven't used it yet, but mine's on its way. I stream mp3's with digital audio cable directly from my computer, so extra features like that, though cool, aren't necessary for me. I'm also afraid they're meaningless to the general populace.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[shatfield]

For the following reasons:

Don't try to search for an upcoming show by name -- you'll have to hit TVGuide.com for that -- definitely not an integrated experience!

You also won't be seeing any "TiVo suggestions", based on which shows you've given the "thumbs up" to.

You won't be able to modify that cable box, either. TiVo is Linux based, and a LOT of hacks exist, so that you can do more with your equipment. That cable box is NOT your equipment, so just sit back and relax, and hope that you don't ever want to do anything with all that content but watch it on your TV later.

You're missing out on a bit of functionality there -- but go ahead and enjoy your less expensive solution... while I enjoy knowing that what mine is mine, and not rented.

Oh yeah, I only pay $6.95 a month for TiVo service. Just call them up and threaten to leave -- they are more than willing to negotiate. You definitely can't say that for your cable company!

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[NetJunkie]

If Tivo had an HD box that worked on TW I'd by it today, happily. I have Time Warner's Scientific Atlanta 8000HD box. It's a HD DVR. It's ok for the most part but the interface is way, way behind TiVo. No suggestions. I see every channel in the guide, not just what I subscribe to. It will record the same 40 episodes of South Park and fill up the drive if I don't watch it instead of recording each episode once. Doing a lookup (by name or whatever) is a bitch compared to TiVo.

TiVo, please come take my money again!

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[FuzzzyLogik]

Tivo will survive because it has a loyal fan base who love the unit, who can hack the unit to expand it, and now because of netflix.

Look at it this way. How many of slashdot's readers have netflix? I don't but if this were offered i'd get a subscription if it was "unlimited" still. It's really that simple. Your cable company as mentioned does not offer a very wide selection of movies and they're much more expensive. Tivo is going to have one hell of a service if they can provide this.

Tivo will likely remain a niche market device, while people who just kind of like the idea of DVR's and don't want all the fun little nifty things tivo does will pay the $5/mo for the mediocre service their cable/sat company provides them. Tivo's niche market is fairly large so i am pretty sure it'll sustain itself just fine, and once netflix customers start seeing they can get movies on demand from a tivo device you can bet that they'll be interested! This works both ways.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[tpillon]

What's the difference between a network cable going to your TV and a phone cable going to your TV? I would assume that most people would have a phone (and therefore a phone line) in the same room as their TV but far fewer people would have a computer\router\switch etc. Mabey I'm missing the point, but that alone seems like a strange reason to choose one over the other, especially if the other costs substantially less.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[frankrachel]

You don't really need a phoneline. I haven't had my phoneline plugged in for over 190 days (it gives you a message about it) on any of my DirecTiVo boxes (4 of em).

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[FuzzzyLogik]

Nice to know, so i guess once the big tree that's in direct line of the satellite is gone we might be able to get directv ;)

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[xombo]

DirectTV's box needs a phone line not for TV listings like TV, it uses the phone line to dial in to report pay-per-view purchases. Without a phone line you can pretty much rack up PPV purchases and never pay for them but most of the boxes I've owned put a stop to it after like 25 or so.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[spectral]

I have a computer, an xbox, a ps2 and maybe a tivo sometime in the future near my tv. All of those like having ethernet, especially the computer since I can stream from one computer in the house to the other.

The phone wire? well.. there's no phone wires in my house. In my parent's house we had phone jacks in three rooms.. kitchen, master bedroom and yes, the room with the tv.. but it was in a stupid spot. We were running cat5 already, easier to run that and infinitely more versatile. If I really needed it to be something special, then I'm sure there's adapters somewhere that'll only make use of 4 of the wires, so I could use the existing cable to do phone stuff. *shrug* never needed to even consider that before.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Anonymous Coward]

You've ordered a braindead DVR that is essentially nothing more than a hard disk based replacement for your VCR. Completely unintelligent, without TiVo's ability to seamlessly capture all your favorite shows without your having to worry about time or channel changes.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a lot more than a "widely celebrated interface". It's the ability to finally stop having to manage yet another damned box and just enjoy your TV programming. These brain-dead cable DVRs don't do that. They aren't anything like a TiVo at all.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Anonymous Coward]

This Tivo/Netflix thing could work worldwide
couldent it?
And if Tivo units had a Conditional Access Module
it could be used for a worldwide pay per view
channel(eventually) more than one if combined
with Multicast i think?

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[tgibbs]

As for the $300 package, $300 would buy me five years worth of TWC DVR service. I find it highly unlikely anyone will *really* be using that 5 year old modded TiVo at that point. Maybe some people would, but I'm usually much faster on the electronics upgrade cycle than that.

I wouldn't think the business model would be the stand-alone TiVo. It would probably be more like the DirecTiVo, currently available for free to new customers from many installers, with an additional programming cost of $5/month (which covers any number of DirecTiVo units in the house). In a year or two, they'll probably be offering the same deal for the High Definition TiVo.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[KaffeineKitty]

"This is a desperate move from a desperate company. Who cares about TiVo anymore? My Time Warner box gives me DVR functions for $5/mo and i don't have to buy any hardware. Remind me why I should buy a $300 box and THEN pay $12.95 per month?"

Why, because that Time Warner Cable DVR is a very poor substitute for a TIVO. With TIVO you can create wishlists based upon titles, actors, directors, keywords or categories and have them all recorded for you automatically. Say your son or daughter has a report to do on the civil war. With TIVO you can put in the keywords "civil war" and even specify that it should only record documentaries. I'd like to see your TWC DVR do that! TIVO also learns what type of programs you like and will auto-record suggestions for you (if you choose to). I also use wishlists to auto-record movies or other programs that I would like to see, but have no idea when they might be shown. We also have our TIVOs connected by a wireless network to a computer so we can play MP3s on the surround sound system in the living room.

Before we had TIVO we always complained that there was never anything on when we wanted to watch TV, even though we have over a hundred channels. Now TIVO always has more programming that we actually enjoy watching than we even have time to watch. The problem with having so many channels available is that it's necessary to provide better and more efficient ways to sort through that information. The programs most people want to see are there somewhere, you just have to get through all the junk to find it. That's the one thing cable companies still do not understand and TIVO has been the one to provide ways to do this.

In our house we don't even watch live TV anymore (or commercials). When we turn on the TV it's only watch the kind of programs we choose and network schedules are no longer something we even care about. That is what TIVO is about. It's about you controlling the TV, not the TV controlling you.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[jmcmunn]

As far as I know, Tivo did not "invent" the DVR. I for one, saw the ReplayTV (Then Panasonic HS1000 Showstopper) far before I saw the Tivo on the shelves. One of my buddies back in school bought an open box, discontinued due to company changing hands Showstopper unit at Best Buy for like $100. I went over to his apartment and marveled at pausing live TV. Then, months later I saw a commercial for Tivo (that was back when I actually watched commercials since I did not have my automatic skip then). I watched the commercial, and thought to myself "Wow, they are gonna bring come competition to Sonic Blue.

Anyway, I don't know if other markets had Tivo first, but if they did it was a close battle. Let's not forget the innovation by the other early competitors as well. Tivo is a name brand (like Kleenex) now, but in my mind ReplayTV does better at all aspects of the game.

You don't even need to open the Replay unit to get unlimited hard drive storage. Just get DVArchive and install it on your PC, connect the Replay to the switdh using the (yes that's right standard) 10/100 port and now you have as much space as you can fit in all of your PC's for storing and archiving shows. You can browse and watch all of them as if they were on the Replay unit itself. Can Tivo do this out of the box with no extra fees or modding....?

I thought not...thank you for your time.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[iantri]

The problem is with people who drop their landline service for VoIP (without the doohickey that connects to your internal house wiring) or cell phones. No phone line to connect to..

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[protohiro1]

This sounds a lot like another company out there. I think anyone that says this about tivo doesn't have one. The interface is what makes tivo worth it, not just the functionality.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[protohiro1]

Mod this up, this is a point that is missed. The tivo doesn't just record stuff. It changes the way you watch tv. It isn't time shifting, its video on demand. (cached on the client). This netflix idea is just building on that concept.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[protohiro1]

I just checked out the online demo of the TWC DVR. That thing is nothing like a tivo. Where is actor, director, and genre based wish lists? I couldn't stand not having that. And what about season passes? Per-recording quality settings....the list goes on...

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[FuzzzyLogik]

correct i knew that, but tivo seems to be the higher market share device. so i used that as an example. like the other post, they were developed pretty much together, yet seperate from each other and released to the world about the same time.. no argument there ;)

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Rude Turnip]

"As for the $300 package, $300 would buy me five years worth of TWC DVR service. ..."

You also get your $300 *back* if you go to sell your Tivo on eBay when it's time to buy an upgraded unit. Unlike the hardware, which will obviously be worth less, the $300 service fee will not depreciate.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[uradu]

> I only pay $6.95 a month for TiVo service. Just call them up and threaten to leave

For real, or are you just making this up?

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[shatfield]

Absolutely for real. It happened after I decided to try the cable company's DVR device. I wasn't really happy with the DVR from the cable company, but I was also not willing to spend more money for having a TiVo. I called TiVo to see if I could rattle the cage a little bit, and it took them about 30 seconds to come back with a counter offer -- $6.95 a month, forever.

The cable company's DVR is now safely back in their office, and I'm still enjoying the added benefits of TiVo on my home network.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[uradu]

Hmm, I've been thinking of getting another TiVo (or rather two Series 2 units, since my SA S1 is getting long in the tooth and SLOW). I might call them and tell them that, but that I consider $20 a month too much for two DVRs and that I'm considering switching to a generic cable company DVR.

Incidentally, how's the hackability of the S2 devices? I remember in the early days S1 owners stayed away in droves because it was supposedly harder to hack. Is show extraction happening meanwhile on the S2? I'd hate to give that up.

Re:TiVo is on its last legs.

[Anonymous Coward]

CAT5 makes dandy telephone wire... all you had to do was run 2 CAT5 cables over, wire one up as ethernet and use the other for phone (and then down the road use it as a 2nd ethernet).

But then, my rule for running cable in difficult spots is "run two, hopefully the mice won't chew both of them".

This will be....

[Anonymous Coward]

...hacked in 5...4..3...2..1...

Re:This will be....

[TheGavster]

... and thus is the disadvantage of rented equipment. They *can* actually tell you that modding the box is against the rules.

Re:This will be....

[ePhil_One]

... and thus is the disadvantage of rented equipment.

Tivo's aren't rented. The box is purchased and a service is subscribed. Cancel the service and you can still record, you just have to use old fashioned date/time methods.

Comcast DVR's ARE rented, the price is good at $10/month, but the service sucks. Just tried the thing out at my parents; its slow, unresponsive, and low res. Thanks, but I'll be keeping my DirecTiVo's for a long while...

Re:This will be....

[TheGavster]

I was commenting on the new device, which is rented. TiVo's are great, in that you can keep them if you stop paying, and no one can stop you from modding it into whatever you want (unless whatever you want is a WMD, in which case you might get missled :))

hacking

[Anonymous Coward]

sounds great. Now to figure out how to hack the tivo so you can burn the movies to dvd

Re:hacking

[dmanny]

To what end? I sure wouldn't want to share the results too far. In the gigabytes of data that make up any movie, it would be fairly easy to implement a watermark. Then just wait for the pirates to identify themselves.

Don't get me wrong, I an all in favor of fair use copying. In particular, I find that making copies of movie titles for my Sony DVD changer yields far more preferable discs than the originals. When my two year old kid wants Winnie the Pooh, an FBI screen and mandatory menu are not what is called for.

Re:hacking

[dargaud]

In the gigabytes of data that make up any movie, it would be fairly easy to implement a watermark. Then just wait for the pirates to identify themselves

Take two different downloads, average the frames (or some other simple trick): poof! your watermark is rendered unusable.

Re:hacking

[dmanny]

Well, more than two. In such a vast expanse, an intelligent watermarking scheme would place many changes.

Which requires a more intelligent hack to defeat. The escalation is predictable. Anyone attempting this might as well go to the point of something more than a simple trick from the start.

But taking the idea of more than one download as a starting point, the multiple approach you suggest is valid. Seeing that the download will almost certainly be done as TCP request(s) sourced by the Tivo box (they already support NAT through routers), one could claim that their requests were monitored.....

Still a quicker and more anonymous approach would be to extract from DVD - rental fees roughly equating with downloaded Pay-Per-View pricing.

Awesome idea

[tabacco]

I like the sound of it. One of my biggest complaints about Netflix was that you couldn't just say "Oh man, I really want to see !" and go get it to watch that night. Admittedly, their shipping service is fast, but it's still not the same when you have to wait a day or two to get it. But if I could download it (or at least get it streaming) instantly or within a couple of hours, that'd be pretty darn cool :)

Re:Awesome idea

[mrpuffypants]

I think a more revolutionary solution would be to allow remote queuing/renting of movies. Think of it this way:

You're at work and you hear about this really funny new Zombie movie called "Shaun of the Dead". You check Netflix and they have it for DVD in 3 days or TiVo delivery that evening.

The netflix website interfaces directly with the TiVo network and you schedule a download of the movie.

When you get home it's completely downloaded to your TiVo (or darn close to it) and you can enjoy the movie without waiting.

It'd be something that I know I'll look into, for sure.

Re:Awesome idea

[Anonymous Coward]

This is almost as good as Kazaa!

Great to see such innovation.

Re:Awesome idea

[accelleron]

It is an interesting concept, but take a look at this:

- Cable/Sattellite companies have the capability to stream high-res content to your TV
- Cable/Sat companies have thecapability to have different people watching different channels
- Cable/Sat companies have vast amounts of storage space and proccessing power.

What, therefore, stops them from ripping all of the DVD's in, say, NetFlix's library into their format, storing it on their server, and putting up a request system.

Then, any time someone would want to watch a movie, they'd simply have to hit a button, and the movie would be queued from the provider's central server, and streamed immediately and directly to the user's channel using a server/client setup. Considering the amount of processing power needed to play/stream a DVD is a nominal 500-700MHz, and these people's server power, I think this is more than possible. Question is, where the hell is it.

Re:Awesome idea

[oneiron]

Blockbuster's new netflix clone fixes that problem. In addition to the 3 movie-at-a-time-by-mail allowance, they also allow you 3 free in-store rentals as a part of the plan for the same price as netflix.

Re:Awesome idea

[Jardine]

Then, any time someone would want to watch a movie, they'd simply have to hit a button, and the movie would be queued from the provider's central server, and streamed immediately and directly to the user's channel using a server/client setup. Considering the amount of processing power needed to play/stream a DVD is a nominal 500-700MHz, and these people's server power, I think this is more than possible. Question is, where the hell is it.

Unless I've misunderstood something, you've just described Video on Demand (VOD). My local cable monopoly is deploying it right now. I can't get it yet, but that's basically how it works. Hit a button and the movie starts streaming to you.

Re:Awesome idea

[chris_mahan]

I have VOD, and it sucks, because there are maybe 200 movies you can pick from.

A more serious number would be 20,000.

Re:Awesome idea

[accelleron]

This is where NetFlix with their fat ass movie library comes in.

Re:Awesome idea

[fiddlesticks]

> What, therefore, stops them from ripping all of the DVD's in, say, NetFlix's library into their format, storing it on their server, and putting up a request system.

Bandwidth does. On demand is obviously the Holy Grail for cable- and sat- operators, but even a million (conservative estimate) boxes all requesting different programmes presents a real challenge

Clearly with 20,000 films there'd be a maximum of 20000 streams, but the capacity to deliver that, combined with the fact that people would want to do all that fancy back, forward pause stuff, over existing cable networks or with current DTH satelite is, er, not currently here - and it won't be a trivial task to implement.

Othewise they would have done it years ago

Re:Awesome idea

[Anonymous Coward]

This could work worldwide couldent it?
and if Tivo units had CA/Conditional Access Module
it could be used for a worldwide pay per view
channel (eventually) and combined with multicast
more than one.

Re:Awesome idea

[dpletche]

What, therefore, stops [Cable/Sat companies] from ripping all of the DVD's in, say, NetFlix's library into their format, storing it on their server, and putting up a request system.

Answer: you're talking about the cable companies, not the most innovative or customer-focused industry.

The satellite providers show more promise, but I doubt it's feasible until/unless receiver boxes have PVR capabilities. I strongly doubt that satellites have infinite bandwidth to support pointcasting to thousands of distinct clients at once. It would be much more practical to:
1) Cache top-sellers on receivers at all times, flipping a bit to enable viewing when ordered;
2) Spool other movies to subscribers on demand, potentially segmenting the data into priority-queued sections in order to provide near-immediate gratification.

Re:Awesome idea

[gujo-odori]

Ditto that. The reason I've never tried Netflix is b/c when I want to rent a movie, it's always spur-of-the-moment and I want it now. Not in a couple of days, now. And there's a Hollywood Video within walking distance of my apartment.

Re:Awesome idea

[BurritoWarrior]

You can already remotely schedule programs on your TiVo through the tivo.com web site. I would think that this "on demand" service would also be added to the remote scheduling options.

Re:Awesome idea

[shokk]

What's even worse is when the friggin movie gets lost between their inventory and your mailbox, and they blame you and request an investigation with the post office that is never resolved. After having my account locked a number of times, I said screw it and went with Blockbuster's Freedom Pass. Same deal as Netflix, only I do get to go to the store when the whim hits me for a certain movie and rent it right away without worrying about shipping times. I can drop off the previous night's movie at the same time that I'm picking up that night's movie. No fuss, no muss.

While I have a TiVo series 1, I'm not sure I really care about this new idea. The download time for an entire DVD, while in the background, is going to really kick the crap out of my cable connection and will take a week. Not fast enough in my opinion. I already have a DVD player so I don't need this function in a box I will have to buy (TiVo series ??).

Re:Awesome idea

[Rude Turnip]

200? That's about 5 times more than what Comcast offers in terms of on-demand movies. They hardly ever update the on-demand tv shows either.

Re:Awesome idea

[nolem]

Is the number of movies available on VOD so low because : - the VoD server cannot store/serve that many movie streams. or - the cable operator has not yet license the content? If it just the latter, the VOD will get as good as Netflix+tivo, in the area of content choice.

Re:Awesome idea

[secretsquirel]

"Question is, where the hell is it."

On top of my TV, they call it "On Demand."

Re:Awesome idea

[eam]

Wow. I've had a handful of movies lost in the mail, and I've never had a problem. How many movies were lost?

Re:Awesome idea

[shokk]

You get to lose three per year before they lock the account and I had the account locked three times. It happened just when they opened the NY area facility, so I'm guessing it was some sort of inventory issue, but I wasn't in the mood to debug it for them.

Re:Awesome idea

[matthewcharlesgoeden]

"What, therefore, stops them[?]"

Licensing -- owning a DVD doesn't mean you can distribute the content on the DVD.

And, of course, the DMCA.

Re:Awesome idea

[accelleron]

"Licensing -- owning a DVD doesn't mean you can distribute the content on the DVD."

Err... this IS one of the reasons I said Netflix:

If they have the licence to rent it out, they will also likely have the licence to do this (you DO need to licence the films to rent them out, I'm not sure about licencing PRICES per se, but it ain't $20). Matter of fact, AFAIK, you need to licence each disc (that's the reason they all come with those little silver stickers in the middle that say you have to buy the DVD if you take them off.) This may mean that NF will need to buy additional licencing per film, but I'm guessing against that (they ARE doing this)

buttplug

[Anonymous Coward]

buttplug

Blockbuster... feh.

[rbruels]

Thankfully, they will continue to implement their rip-offs in such a fashion that the service will be too difficult for Average Joe, sub-mediocre, and still not satisfy anybody's needs.

My name is Ryan, and I'm a Netflix fan. Still need to get on the Tivo bandwagon, though. :)

Do This Instead

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Get a DVD burner.
2. Download DVD Shrink
3. Sign up for Blockbuster's Movie Pass (Unlimited Rentals, 2 out at a time).
4. Purchase blank DVD+R's and jewel cases.
5. Print covers from cdcovers.cc.
6. Go crazy.

So far I've increased my collection by 52 movies in the last month, at about 90 cents each (DVD+R + jewel case + prorated Movie Pass)

Re:Do This Instead

[Arcanix]

Hey you know you could save some more money by just stealing the DVD-Rs as well!

Re:Do This Instead

[Anonymous Coward]

Stealing the DVD-Rs? That's stupid! You'd better steal a credit card and keep the Blockbuster DVDs you got, no need to burn or print anything.

Re:Do This Instead

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot:

7. Shoot heroin, beat wife senseless, and rape the kids again.

Re:Do This Instead

[Anonymous Coward]

mod this shit +10 funny...

Re:Do This Instead

[tgibbs]

So far I've increased my collection by 52 movies in the last month, at about 90 cents each (DVD+R + jewel case + prorated Movie Pass)

The problem with maintaining a collection like this is that it takes up valuable space, not to mention time. Kids may watch a movie 50 times, but I don't. If could get a video reliably and quickly over the net when I wanted to see it, I'd pay a few bucks per download just so I wouldn't have to bother shelving them.

Re:Do This Instead

[Anonymous Coward]

I have that beat. Heres what I do:
Netflix - 8 out plan for major movies.
Greencine - 8 out plan for more obscure movies.
Nicheflix - 8 out plan for foreign region and PAL movies.

Yeah, I like movies.

Beta testing impressions

[Seth Finklestein]

As a beta tester for this "DVDs on Demand" programme, I can assure you that it works as promised.

I requested that Netflix send me only the finest in Japanese Animation (pronounced "ah-nee-MAY-shun") and requested that it be sent via my modified Series2 TiVo with 320 GB hard drive. What's more, Netflix allowed my entire queue to be delivered to my Series2 TiVo with 320 GB hard drive.

When you load up a DVD, you see the real deal: all menus, all extras, everything. The hard drive copy appears to be encrypted with AES-128, but the fun thing is that those dumbtards didn't count on the Sethmeister! I just hooked up video out to video in and used my video capture card to capture all the ah-nee-MAY-shun that I wanted.

To "return" a DVD, you merely cede the rights to it using TiVo's menu. The next DVD starts downloading immediately at speeds in excess of 700 kibibytes per second.

In conclusion, I recommend this service.

Sincerely,
Seth Finklestein
World-Renowned Authority on Entertainment

Re:Beta testing impressions

[aldoman]

That's all well and good, but not everyone has a 700KB/sec download speed. Most people have at max 300KB and a lot of people have crapola speeds of 120KB or less (!). This causes a serious headache when I can get a 1 CD xvid rip done in an hour, or a 2cd xvid rip done in two or so.

Still going to rent DVDs

[Anonymous Coward]

That way I can take a copy if I like it.

Bandwidth

[neotuli]

Where do they plan on finding super-high bandwidth connections for home users? For me at least, it is and would remain much faster to to spend five minutes walking the two blocks to the video rental shop and just get one there, rather than waiting a couple hours for the movie to download.

Re:Bandwidth

[bblazer]

I was thinking exactly the same thing. When I built my house, I spec'd CAT 6 cabling for the network/phone/structured cabling, knowing that someday there would be things like this. However, I am still light years ahead of the pipe that come to the house. I can't imagine how long it would take to download a full length DVD to my TiVo. Sometimes you can see one technology push another's development, but I doubt that TiVo an NetFlix have enough juice to get Time Warner to ope up the pipes for their service. Especially in my area where we have so many 'on-demand' channels to choose from, including the ones that come from all the major cable networks.

Re:Bandwidth

[jandrese]

You must be lucky, my local video stores (all Blockbusters and locally ownd foreign-language-only places) completely blow for selection. Blockbuster in particular never seems to carry anything I'd actually want to watch. Netflix on the other hand has been like a gift from God. I've been able to watch dozens of old movies that I missed in the theatres years ago and cult classics. I have yet to hear someone talking about a film that I couldn't find on Netflix. Plus, Blockbuster seems to do everything possible to stick you with late fees, even if their storefront is blocked by construction preventing you from getting the DVD back in the slot until 5 minutes past noon. They still send me an occasional coupon for free movie rentals and I throw them away, why should I drive out to the store to rent some movie I didn't really want to see, even if it is free?

Re:Bandwidth

[canavan]

For me that would be a 10 minute (one way) ride out in the cold and/or rain (or whatever) only to find that the movie I wanted isn't available because either all DVDs are already rented out or they have stopped carrying that one because it's too old.

Re:Bandwidth

[That's Unpossible!]

Where do they plan on finding super-high bandwidth connections for home users?

It's already out there, cable and dsl. Do you think the entire DVD needs to be downloaded before you can start watching it? Time Warner already streams nearly DVD quality video to me, on-demand. Why couldn't TiVo do something similar.

I'll be surprised if the MPAA lets this happen though.

For me at least, it is and would remain much faster to to spend five minutes walking the two blocks to the video rental shop and just get one there, rather than waiting a couple hours for the movie to download.

Well then you are not in Netflix's target market of people that don't want to get off their ass and/or don't want to pay late fees.

Blockbuster is not in the business of renting movies, they're in the business of charging late fees...

Re:Bandwidth

[crywolf]

The problem could be that Blockbuster has a policy (as I've heard it from a relative that manages a store) that if it hasn't been rented within the past 6 months, it gets tossed. Doesn't leave much room for selection.

Re:Bandwidth

[drawfour]

You're missing the point. This is for TiVo _and_ NetFlix customers. If you use NetFlix, you're already willing to wait a couple days for the DVD to be delivered. Just going down to the local rental store is not a substitute for NetFlix, for multiple reasons. One of them is cost. NetFlix is a fixed cost per month, whereas generally DVD rentals cost a certain amount per movie. True, Blockbuster (and maybe some others) allow for fixed cost for as many DVDs as you want (max 3 at a time, or something similar to NetFlix), but selection is key. With NetFlix, you say "I want these 10 DVDs" and they give them to you when they're available. You don't have to wait until they come back and make a special trip.

So if you're not willing to wait 2 hours for a download, then you're likely not a NetFlix subscriber either. And thus not their target market. At least until it takes 5 minutes to download. Which will be a while.

Re:Bandwidth

[Knetzar]

legally, how can the MPAA stop it? If NetFlix has a copy of each DVD for each tivo that has it downloaded, then they are doing nothing illegal.

Re:Bandwidth

[hazem]

Try checking the local library. There's a good chance they're linked with other libraries and can offer quite a large selection of movies for free.

I was recently living in a rural coastal region and through my local library, I had access to the dvd/video selection of about 12 other libraries. I saved a fortune in rental fees and my non-subscription to cable.

The only real downside was waiting for particular movies. I couldn't plan to watch a certain movie at a certain time because the only copy might be checked out. But I found that if I kept the system filled with requests that usually something interesting would be ready for me.

Re:Bandwidth

[bokmann]

What does it matter if it takes a couple of hours to download a movie that is a couple of hours long? If Tivo holds true to their current UI, you will be able to watch the movie before you have the whole thing doenloaded...

I mean, it currently takes me an hour to 'download' an hour long show on my Tivo via normal recording mechanisms.

People who love NetFlix don't seem to mind that they may have to wait DAYS to get the movies they asked for by mail... a few hours seems like an improvement to me.

Sign me up for this... now. I love my Tivo, and I am not currently a NetFlix subscriber... but anything that helps define that legal line of 'fair use' in my favor using technology that is already generally available sounds like a win to me. I will vote for them with my dollars.

Re:Bandwidth

[Anonymous Coward]

> For me at least

Well, there you go. The closest video shops to me have strictly Vietnamese videos. I can go drive to Blockbuster and find the few good movies they have are gone, OR sit at home and download the movie over my cable modem.

Re:Bandwidth

[Quarters]

TiVo Series 2 boxes still default to 56K dialup connections as their networking interface. The number of people using USB2->Ethernet or USB2->WiFi connections is still lower than the number of people that own a TiVo S2. Whatever system TiVo and NetFlix are thinking of will have to either be restricted to broadband users, which limits their market penetration; or low bandwidth optimized so as to get all TiVo users.

Re:Bandwidth

[uradu]

I've read some stuff that leads me to the conclusion that

1. they'll be using pretty tight compression (mpeg4 or such)
2. they're going to implement something like Bittorrent

So a typical movie may be 1G or less, which on a decent broadband connection isn't too bad. Now consider that new blockbuster releases will be downloaded much more frequently by more TiVos on the web, and suddenly the more popular a movie is, the more efficient the bittorrent mechanism becomes. IOW, unlike with standard unicasting where download speed goes to the dogs the more popular a file is, downloading actually becomes faster the more popular a movie is.

I have to say that for a long time I've despised TiVo for having come up with one good idea and not much more since. I used to think their creative stagnation was going to be their downfall. But if they're going through with this, and if it succeeds (and I have every reason to believe it will, unless Hollywood manages to kill it), this could be the ticket to serious success for them. And it would finally be serious innovation from them again.

Re:Bandwidth

[jandrese]

My local library has tons of tapes of PBS programs, documentaries, History Channel series on Hitler, and other stuff I'm generally not looking for. Maybe yours is better, but I wouldn't expect to find, for example, Repo Man at my public library. Maybe my local librarians are just snobbish about "popular" media, but they don't seem to stock much stuff that I would watch for entertainment.

Re:Bandwidth

[hazem]

I've just moved back to "The City" (which for me, is Portland, OR) from the coast.

I was actually surprised at the wide selection of movies available on the "Coastal Resource Sharing Network". Of course, there were things I couldn't find, but they were even willing to do interlibrary loans to get the less common stuff. Except for the very newest stuff, I'd say their range of materials is more expansive than any Blockbuster I've been too. But then again, like I said in my last, you may end up waiting a couple weeks. It was best to keep the system seeded with lots of requests - that way I was sure to have something to watch.

As you said, though, a lot depends on the librarians.

Re:Bandwidth

[hazem]

And I know that Repo Man is just a "for instance", but sure enough:



Of course... it's checked out.

Re:Bandwidth

[blitziod]

I wish b-buster would expand there freedom pass to include a mail order service also. I would pay an extra 5 bucks a month to be able to order movies through the mail( like netflix) IF thelist of titles was expanded( like netflix. Who would still use netflix if you could get the same from block buster + have the option of going to the store and using freedom pass there with the normal block buster selection, for impulse renting.

also NETFLIX and hollywood video, if you are reading this, partner together to offer this kind of service for under 35.00 a month and you will eat block busters lunch.

The only reason i go to blockbuster is that hollywood does not have a freedom pass.

Comcast already does this...

[stubear]

"...Blockbuster will not be far behind with your favorite cable company."

Comcast already offers movies through their OnDemand service and I don't have to wait for them to download before I watch them. The service unblocks access to the movie I want for 24 hours so I can watch it anytime I want before the time's up.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[flewp]

That's just for movies though. This is basically the DVD (minus the disc). It sounds like you get all the menus, all the extras, and anything else on the DVD. AFAIK, most digital cable companies offer the movies, as you'd see on HBO, in the theater, etc, but they don't offer an actual DVD version.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[GeorgeH]

While I don't have OnDemand (I'd rather have a TiVo that can change channels accurately than a digital cable box and IR blaster) it looks like you can only pick from a selection of pre-chosen movies. How many movies can you pick from? Netflix currently claims to have over 25,000 to choose from.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[bob65]

OnDemand seems to be lower quality (picture wise and sound wise) than most DVDs though. Particularly if the digital cable box is not hooked up for 5.1 channel dolby digital output.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[Hollins]

Comcast digital boxes have a plug in the back that can make a direct connection to TiVo's IR blaster. Until a few months ago, they disabled this feature, but sometime around June, they sent a firmware update to my box that re-enabled it.

I now have HDTV digital cable and error-free TiVo channel selection.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[GeorgeH]

Some of my friends in my area had theirs unlocked a year and a half ago, but all my calls to Comcast ended in frustration. I finally just told them to take their digital box back because they couldn't support my setup. Since then, the TiVo has caught more TV than I can watch anyway, so I don't feel the need to add more channels.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[ssstraub]

I had Time Warner's iControl. We used it a couple times. There are major problems with the service when compared to the competition.

1. Extremely small selection. I estimate under 75 movies at any one time. This is [b]awful[/b] considering that many people own more than this amount of DVD's in their own collection, and this is a huge cable giant. Imagine if iTunes (or similar) were to only offer 75 different songs at any one time. There is no excuse for that in this day and age.

2. It costs $4 per movie. How is this BETTER than going to the video store down the street? For your $4 down the street, you get an actual non-lossy disc with all of the extras, actual DVD controls instead of the minimalist on-screen Play, Stop, Rewind, FForward, and you usually get to keep it for something like 2-7 days, instead of a measly 24 hrs. Not to mention, iControl movies are even further limited to 4 hours after you press play! Hope everyone is in the room for the first viewing!

I took back my digital box after I bought a TiVo. And if this goes through, I expect more people will do the same. $7 off my digital cable bill (renting the box) that covers more than half the TiVo account.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[michael_cain]

OnDemand seems to be lower quality (picture wise and sound wise) than most DVDs though

Absolutely true. Content encoded for a standard-definition DVD is constrained to a maximum bit rate of 10 Mbps, and the typical bit rate is around 5-6 Mbps. Content encoded for delivery over digital cable typically runs at a relatively constant rate in the range of 1-3.5 Mbps, depending mostly on what kind of service it is (low-end digital-tier channels get the lowest rates; premium content like HBO gets the higher ones). Both are encoded using MPEG-2 video. There is no substitute for bit rate. Material coded at 3.5 Mbps will have lower effective resolution and more artifacts than material coded at higher rates.

There's been a bunch of research done with both typical viewers and expert viewers, and for standard definition and practical purposes, 12 Mbps is visually lossless encoding. DVDs are almost but not quite that good.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[segfault7375]

Yep, and much like a lot of new DVDs that are coming out, you probably get all the advertisements that you can't skip over too. :-/

Re:Comcast already does this...

[AaronBaker2000]

You'd be complaining if you had a high-def TV. From what I've seen, OnDemand looks blocky and pixelated on a high-def television. However, OnDemand also has other problems. The interface is clunky and unresponsive. In all, it really pails in comparison to the pleasure of a high-def TiVo.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[mre5565]

Which doesn't do a damn bit of good for
anyone who doesn't have cable, but might have
DSL, fiber optic, etc.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[Rude Turnip]

Unfortunately, Comcast has no real selection. Then sent us a coupon for a free pay-per-view and I've yet to use it because the only thing they offer new release, dumbed-down movies (ie..along the lines of Dude...Car?, 2 Fast 2 Furious and not many mainstream serious movies). There is some good anime on the On-Demand system for regular TV shows, but they rarely get updated.

Oh yeah, and Comcast charges you $10/month if you want to use their DVR. Unfortunately, this is the only way for me to record HDTV shows since my Series 2 Tivo is not HD ready and Tivo is dragging ass on getting out a standalone HD model.

Right now I'm using Blockbuster's $29/month 3-at-a-time flat rate plan. The store I go to is really good at offering the videos that you request (they had Red Dwarf up on the shelves within a week of me asking for it on the request sheet!).

Re:Comcast already does this...

[uradu]

> a plug in the back that can make a direct connection to TiVo's IR blaster

You mean to TiVo's serial port control. You use the IR blaster when you DON'T have such a plug. Incidentally, do you know if their HD boxes also have serial ports? I'm considering switching to Comcast HD from DirecTV, but would hate to have to start using the IR blaster.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[uradu]

I'm not sure about the technical details of OnDemand, but there are only two feasible ways it can hope to cope with the bandwidth requirements:

1. keep the selection small and intelligently simulcast as many shows as possible
2. only offer the service to a few people and hope not too many use it

There's really no way around the fact that serious, large-scale unicasting would bring their network to its knees. Immagine the worst case scenario of each subscriber watching a different OnDemand show (if they even offered that many).

Re:Comcast already does this...

[Hollins]

On my Philips Series 1, both the IR Blaster and Serial port are 1/8" headphone jacks. I'm using a Comcast HD box, and it receives a 1/8" headphone jack, also.

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I connected to the IR Blaster, and the serial is for some satellite boxes. I don't feel like dragging the TV stand out to check.

The interesting thing is, when calling up the firmware diagnostic screen, there is actually an entry labeled "IR Blast enabled:" followed by "YES" or "NO". Until around June, mine was set to NO, but at some point they updated the box. The HD newsgroups indicated that all boxes were initially enabled, then Comcast disabled them when it rolled out its own PVR option. I'm not sure if mine was re-enabled intentionally, but I'm not complaining. It's worth searching the message boards that are out there.

If you go with Comcast HD, request the Motorola DCT5100 box. As I recall, Comcast has another HD box that does not have a control input in the back.

I tried IR blast before it was enabled and experienced around 10% failure rate, even at the slowest setting. I tried a bunch of fixes, to no avail. This was unacceptable, so I went back to TiVo's tuner and settled for not being able to record anything over channel 100.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[Anonymous Coward]

I work for a manufacturer of video servers for CATV on-demand.

The goal is indeed serious large scale unicasting. Already the on-demand streams are sent via optical fiber (gigabit ethernet) to neighborhood nodes that typically service 200-500 homes. There the unicast streams are remultiplexed and modulated onto RF carriers (channels, each one typically carrying 10 streams). A typical config today is to allow 20 on-demand streams per neighborhood, but the equipment can handle more. Each analog channel converted to digital frees up another 10 or so streams of bandwidth.

The encoding parameters specified for SD are 352x480 or 528x480, interlaced, MPEG-2 video bitrate 3.18mbit, total multiplex 3.75mbit, AC3 audio (usually 2 channels).

Re:Comcast already does this...

[uradu]

Thanks, that's interesting info.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[BlakeLupa]

Hum, never thought I'd look back on fast forwarding through the previews and ads on a video tape with ostalgia. I already go nutz waiting for the FBI warning....

Re:Comcast already does this...

[Robert The Coward]

About the same as if ever cable modem custmer trings to download a 3 GB file at the same time. It would slow things down alot.

Digital cable box/network seems to be a self contained IP network with built in cable modem. The get assigned 10.x.x.x IP address and recieve most core channels like HBO in a broadcast mode and the OnDemand in unicast modem. The have alot of bandwidth to work with and if a certain segment gets overloaded the do what is called spliting the node were the break a node into 2 fiber connections instead of 1. It means that if everyone in a area desided they wanted to use OnDemand as once it would break and there are piece build in to stop if from slowing the more import broadcast traffic. But I can tell you that only a small precentage us OnDemand at any given time and that if they find that it has problems on a regular base then they split the node.

Nothing real strange here. There have been several projects out there tring to do the same on local lans for years.

Re:Comcast already does this...

[WuphonsReach]

And that's why I don't have cable and have never bothered with pay-per-view or on-demand services.

My price point for something that I can only watch in a 4 hour window is $1.00, maybe $2.00 if I can watch it again and again over the next 48 hours.

Any price higher then that and I'll go to the local video rental where I have 10x the selection for about the same cost.

Sometimes I wonder what they're smoking when they come up with these pricing plans. It's probably MPAA fees.

Strangeberry

[BigHungryJoe]

Strangeberry software, codeveloped by one of the writers of Sun's Java programming language, allows users to plug a DSL or cable modem into the back of the TiVo device and draw digital content like music and movies off the Internet.

TiVo can already use your broadband connection to download their programming info. Does anyone know exactly what Strangeberry does? The TiVo press release just described it as "protocols and tools for delivery of broadband."

I'm also wondering if this is going to be an update to your existing TiVo software, or if it'll be another $100 add-on, like Home Media Option.

-bhj

Re:Strangeberry

[accelleron]

Kazaa: Tivo edition

Re:Strangeberry

[keiferb]

AFAIK, the Home Media Option is free for all Series 2 units. At least... I never paid for it and it's available on both of my TiVos.

Re:Strangeberry

[mr_zorg]

But, sadly, not the DirecTiVo Series 2 boxes. Because the DirecTV folks are too paranoid... My box is already hacked, what have they got to lose?

Re:Strangeberry

[BigHungryJoe]

Hmm - I paid $99 for it and it d/l'ed from TiVo's website. I wonder if it was made free after I purchased it, or if it is free with all new TiVos. I've got a series 2 also - the TCD240080, and HMO was definitely not free.

bhj

Re:Strangeberry

[keiferb]

I know they used to charge for it, but one day it just showed up on my boxes. I had participated in the free trial a while back and saw it as a neat feature, but decided that it wasn't worth my money.

If I were you, I'd call them and bitch until they give you something.

Re:Strangeberry

[Rude Turnip]

When it first came out, HMO was $99. It's now a free feature on all Series 2 boxes...I'm glad I procrastinated!

btw, 6 gmail invites available...email a picture of your bassett hound to gmail ID "valuation" if you want one!

al a carte!!!!

[BWJones]

Hey, fix the damn al a carte system first! I don't want to order my cable with the existing packages, but would rather only pay for the channels (and services) I prefer. No damned shopping channels and such, just give me news channels, History channel, TLC, Discovery, BBC, Speedvision, ESPN, TCM and broadband cable, with the OPTION of being able to order specific movies or events ON DEMAND when I want them.

Re:al a carte!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not al a carte like Al Bundy, it's à la carte (it's french ;)

Re:al a carte!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

What you don't whant to pay for all the shitty channels in our Super Gold Premium Pacage?

That's insane!

Re:al a carte!!!!

[doormat]

No damned shopping channels and such, just give me news channels, History channel, TLC, Discovery, BBC, Speedvision, ESPN, TCM and broadband cable, with the OPTION of being able to order specific movies or events ON DEMAND when I want them.

Your cable bill would be the same. The economics work like this: most cable companies have to pay the provider (ESPN) so much $ per sub per month - ESPN is actually the #1 reason your bills go up so much. Shopping channels give your cable or satellite provider so much $ per sub per month...

Re:al a carte!!!!

[jandrese]

This is the biggest reason I want an a la carte system! I don't want ESPN, but I know a big chunk of my monthly bill is going towards this channel. The home shopping channels I can live with, but I'm really looking to maximize my enjoyment per dollar.

The biggest problem is that many media companies bundle their channels together, so if you want Comedy Central and Sci Fi you are also forced to take Oxygen, FX, Animal Planet, and a bunch of other stations that you don't care about. This setup is not likely to change because otherwise those other channels would rarely be picked up by the cable companies and would end up folding.

Re:al a carte!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with you in spirit. I'm paying a good chunk more than I really want to for cable television, but there isn't much choice in the matter.

95% of the time I'm watching 1 of 5 channels, an no, ESPN is not one of them. If I had the option to cut the rest of the channels to save a good chunk of money I'd do it.

However, I would much rather have access to all channels and have my cable bill go down because of competition.

I probably visit 5 or less websites on a daily basis, yet I wouldn't want to cut the rest of the sites on the net to save money.

You can talk all day about Microsoft having a monopoly, but if you are a consumer and buy a new computer it comes with Windows and you need not pay Microsoft another penny ever again. As well, you can plop down 100-200 bucks for XP and install it on your computer and you're done paying MS. I can't see how CONSUMERS are being harmed in any way by MS.

However, I'm paying friggin' Comcast over 100 bucks a month for cable television and internet. Every month. That's like buying XP Home Editition every month. I can buy my own Cable MODEM, but I sure can't buy my own digital converter box, I get to pay for that every month I have it.

So when XP came out a couple years ago, I payed MS under 200 bucks. I probably won't have any great need to upgrade for a couple more years at least, so that's 4 years minimum for 200 bucks, or around 4 bucks a month. That's less than the freakin' service fees Comcast charges me every month!

So everytime I hear about how M$ iz mOnOpOlY, it kinda makes me laugh. There is plenty of choice for OS's, hell, I could be running Linux for friggin' free! Yet, at less than 4 bucks a month, Windows is probably my cheapest expense out of everything I spend money on. Including video games, as I play a game for like 6 months max, probably on average under a month. Games set me back at least 40 bucks every time. I use Windows every single day, for a good part of the day.

This isn't a pro Microsoft post. I know that's just ignorant to do on /. where M$ = SATAN. This is an anti cable company monopoly post.

Re:al a carte!!!!

[VValdo]

I just watched an FCC hearing on CSPAN on this very topic. (yeah, yeah, I know. Too much time on my hands).

You'll never guess who was opposed to this--

The smaller cable channels. There were quite a few passionate pleas to the FCC to NOT use this model, including one very emotional one by the founder of Nickelodeon TV (and the creator of Oxygen). The reasoning is that it's very hard if not impossible to start a new smaller-market cable channel (like some of your favorites-- History channel, TLC, Discovery, etc.)

An on-demand model would mean that new channels no one has ever heard of, or niche channels or even potentially massively popular channels that need to build momentum would never have a chance.

These channels can't afford giant media blitzes-- they rely on word of mouth and the channel-surfer to discover them. Otherwise a new channel would have to devote huge resources to publicizing themselves, which would mean either the network would never get off the ground or there would be less original programming.

I didn't watch the whole thing, bu tthere was also testimony at this hearing by research firms (don't ask me who they worked for) whose modeling suggested that the cost per customer may actually go up, especially after the smaller channels start to die off.

In effect, if you moved to an a la carte system (as is apparently done in some provinces in Canada and Europe where many stations are state-supported), you'd likely be killing off the smaller stations you want to watch.

So it's not a case of you paying for stations you DON'T want-- but rather, because of your eclectic tastes, other people are helping to support those niche stations YOU enjoy.

With a little digging, you can find the FCC hearing on cspan.org and watch it for yourself.

W

Re:al a carte!!!!

[Rude Turnip]

"The smaller cable channels. There were quite a few passionate pleas to the FCC to NOT use this model, ..."

In response to this, let me quote one of the greatest posts ever made on /. (author unknown):

"Tough. Adapt or die."

In my mind, "TV channels" are another middle man that should be done away with. In a perfect world, a studio or production house should be able to sell their shows directly to cable companies, who would then put the shows offered under different categories in an on-demand type of system. As long as the commercials are included, they could sell access to the shows for about $0.25 or less (or more for commercial-free HBO programs) and use some sort of revenue splitting scheme the way Apple gets a small cut of iTunes revenue.

Re:al a carte!!!!

[blitziod]

it is likely to change,mandated by law. The FCC is likely going to make cable companies offer service per channel. I would inlclude a link to a past article on this, but am too lazy to whore that strong for kharma.

Re:al a carte!!!!

[blitziod]

simple solution: when starting a new cable channel, or trying to increase subscriptions to an ol done, give the channel away free for a day, week, month, etc. This is what current premuim channels do all the time now.

This could be huge

[jskiff]

As an avid Netflix subscriber and recent TiVo purchaser, this sounds great. Being able to add a movie to my queue and then watch it within hours, as opposed to ~2 days would be quite cool.

Of course I haven't R'dTFA, but I wonder what the disk space requirements are for this? The 40 hour units don't exactly have a ton of space.

I also wonder how the MPAA is going to agree to this; it's already fairly trivial to telnet or FTP to a TiVo, pull the programs off, and burn them to a DVD (or so I hear). You'd think that this thing will be h4xx0r3d pretty quick.

Re:This could be huge

[geekoid]

how is it better then driving to the movie rental place, renting it, taking it home and watch it then?

Re:This could be huge

[slash-tard]

1) Geeks dont like to leave the house, except to visit frys or compusa.

2) Geeks prefer the complicated technical solution to the simple "old fashioned" solution.

3) Profit!!!

Re:This could be huge

[FuzzzyLogik]

I almost have a feeling this will be in a new tivo box and not available for older boxes. just a hunch but maybe i'm wrong.

Afterall they do have to give people a reason to buy new units once in awhile and this might be that killer feature that will make a lot of people upgrade their age old systems.

Re:This could be huge

[soyuz_2]

It's also pretty easy to go rent a DVD and rip it. Acidrip is a nice linux tool for this. Or so they say. Only difference is that if you ftp it out from your tive, it's allready encoded (probably in some weird format though).

Re:This could be huge

[synergy3000]

How is it better? It is better because I did not waste gas and pollute the environment for a five minute drive. Your cars engine is the most polluting when it is still cold. Same on the return rental trip.

Re:This could be huge

[natelr]

- Netflix generally has 6 times the selection of a typical video store so there is no guarantee you can get what you want -Depending on the day, if you go to a video store, you still not getting anything very new. -When averaged out, my netflix costs be around $2 bucks a movie, its $4 at the video store.

Re:This could be huge

[bokmann]

Why would the disk space requirements be any different? An hour of video is an hour of video. In fact, since they wouldn't have to compress the stream in real time, they may be able to optimize it a little better than Tivo does in real-time.

I agree, the MPAA will probably freak, but how is this *really* any different then recording a movie off of HBO onto my Tivo? I could rip that if I really wanted to.

From my perspective, the only difference is the protocol used to get the video onto my Tivo... I mean, I can choose to spend 2 hours recording a movie off of HBO, or 2 hours downloading it from NerFlix. Either way, I watch it on the same TV with the same Tivo.

I am a consumer dammit! Not a criminal! I have money in my pocket! If you want it, sell me something I want!

Re:This could be huge

[dildatron]

The main advantage I see, as a current netflix customer, is no late fees. I am notorious for racking up huge late fees at the video rental places and at libraries. Netflix helps me avoid this.

Re:This could be huge

[Rude Turnip]

I can already program my Series 2 Tivo remotely at the office by logging into my account at tivo.com. Surely they would modify their remote programming system to include queuing up Netflix movies. So, I work all day and go save a trip to the store (with a smaller selection) because my Tivo will already have movies for me.

Re:This could be huge

[boskone]

i thought tivo lost money on boxes and wanted to make the subscriptions last as long as possible. Hence why they'd rather have your unit last 5 years and get a chance to recoup some of their investment. perhaps this has changed, but since you can get a tivo for $100 after rebates, i have to think they're still subsidizing them.

So how legal is this?

[SuperKendall]

I wonder if they are going to get in trouble, or if they have permission for such a plan. I could see them saying each TiVo copy is linked to a physical DVD - but MP3.com tried that long ago to disasterous effect by letting you listen to streamed music of a CD that you identified you owned.

It sounds great though and would be the thing that would finally have me buy a TiVo box. Plus, if you think about it, it could almost make the HDVD spec moot if you could download HD media to your TIVO from Netflix (perhaps in conjuction with HDNet as per the recent story, though they want to ship out physical drives to customers!).

Sounds like a great idea to keep both Netflix and TiVo ahead of rivals.

Re:So how legal is this?

[blackmonday]

Considering that Netflix is partly owned by the movie studios, I'd say this would have to be very legal.

Exactly what needed to happen

[doormat]

This is an excellent move. I've got a netflix subscription, and I want to get a tivo. The idea of being able to get DVDs on demand over my Tivo (and watch x many times or y hours) is sweet. The only issue is bandwidth. I've got a 3mbit/s connection, and it would be nice to watch it in real time (a well compressed 3mbit/s strem can look nice - DirecTV's channels are a little less than 3mbit/s by comparison). Still, its wonderful to hear this.

About damn time.

Re:Exactly what needed to happen

[That's Unpossible!]

You don't really need it to start in real time. Even if you have a decent cable/dsl connection and give it an hour head start*, you should be able to watch it all the way through.

* Warning: I pulled this calculation out of my ass.

Re:Exactly what needed to happen

[doormat]

Yea, basically its just the ratio between your download speeds and the bitrate of the movie. If the movie bitrate was 4.5mbit/s and your download speeds were 3mbit/s you would need to wait til you had about 1/3 downloaded (say 40 minutes - about as long as it takes to cook and eat dinner, then a romantic movie). Plus a lot of cable companies are starting to up speeds, my cable company (Cox) already raised speeds around the country to 4/512 and 5/768; 5mbit/s down is enough to watch a very high quality movie in real time.

Re:Exactly what needed to happen

[Anonymous Coward]

The thing I'm wondering about is how much this is going to cost Tivo.

I mean, bandwidth still ain't exactly cheap. And you've got to be huge for other networks to want to have a relationship (they route your stuff, and you route theirs--for no fee) with you.

And seeing how some of the larger networks are cable companies, I surmise how this might be a problem. It'd probably be cheaper to buy a DVD stamping plant, and the rights to manufacture movies for rentals...

Re:Exactly what needed to happen

[uradu]

> The thing I'm wondering about is how much this is going to cost Tivo.

I don't think this is going to cost TiVo, but rather Netflix. I believe they're the ones that are setting up the server farms. TiVo are merely implementing the software for fetching the movies (and serving it up to other subscribers via a bittorrent-like mechanism).

Also

[Anonymous Coward]

In other news, so have Suprnova and my DVD burner.

u fail it!

[Anonymous Coward]

your mother fucks dogs in hell

tits 4 u

[Anonymous Coward]

congrats on frist psot!

u r a tard

[Anonymous Coward]

fuck me

Take this into account.

[drseuss9311]

To me it seems like blockbuster and netflix and the like are probably feeling the squeeze from all this tivo/dvr/video-on-demand and need to partner w/ these companies that get into the home each and every day.

When I worked with my local cable provider in tech support for the highspeed clients the cable provider was beta testing the inDemand features in new cable boxes. The employees who wanted to help were the beta testers. I enjoyed the sneak peek at the near future, but on to my main point...

One day i was helping the guy who was deploying the inDemand systems and I was asking him about the technical details and scaling the systems. At the end of the conversation he put it this way:

"They're basically gunning to put blockbuster out of business.."

that's not the exact quote but close... and of course it was only his opinion, but who knows... blockbuster will soon be at the knees of these cable companies with on-demand movies because they can get it to the home.

mod me down if u must

Re:Take this into account.

[blackmonday]

I can't wait for Blockbuster to go out of business. Their refusal to carry NC-17 movies (do they allow unrated) means studios have to chop movies down for the "public good". And they want six bucks for a movie rental. The thing is, I hate cable companies as much as I hate Blockbuster, so I'm SOL. I love Netflix, although they delay my movies because I turn them over too fast. I want a good guy to appear in this media blitz, bit I don't see it happening.

Re:Take this into account.

[Yavi]

What do you mean they delay your movies? I'm on the 8 out at a time package and I send them back the same day I get them. My turnaround time is supurb, they ship me my next movie the same day the receive my returned movie, and 90% of the time it's the next day.

Re:Take this into account.

[blackmonday]

I'm on the 3 movie plan. If I return all 3 on one day, only 1 registers as returned and they'll delay the others as much as 2 more days. How do I know for sure? I've sent 2 movies in the same envelope, one movie took 2 more days before it was confirmed as returned. You're on an expensive plan, you get preferential treatment.

Re:Take this into account.

[sdpinpdx]

I'm on the three movie plan, and have seen all three turn over on the same day.

Re:Take this into account.

[Anonymous Coward]

Blockbuster has ALWAYS known that its time was limited, which is why Blockbuster was created as a real estate company. They understood that video rentals would not last forever, and in the meantime have built up a massive real estate portfolio for their next venture, or for sale. They just need to last long enough to ride out the commercial real estate glut.

Re:Take this into account.

[Yavi]

I figured out the multiple DVDs in 1 red envelope thing. Aparantly it's an issue with the post office and how they sort mail (2 DVDs weigh more). I'm not sure if it's complete FOOEY or not, but that's what I've been told.

Would this include DVD extras?

[antdude]

Or only the movie?

Re:Would this include DVD extras?

[doormat]

Probably only the movie. An entire DVD is typically 7-8GB. At 1.5mbit/s thats 11 hours for 8GB. Overnight is OK, but I'd hate to wait any longer than I had to.

Re:Would this include DVD extras?

[0x20]

Now wait a minute here.

8 GB = 8000000000 bytes.
8000000000 bytes * 8 bits/byte = 64000000000 bits.
64000000000 bits / 1500000 bits/second = 42667 seconds.
42667 seconds / 3600 seconds/hour = ...oh, shit, you're right.

(and i'm glad i've got a 6 Mb/s cable modem!)

Re:Would this include DVD extras?

[doormat]

With 6mbit/s, you're likely to be able to watch DVDs in real time. Lucky you.

Re:Would this include DVD extras?

[mrpull]

Nicely done. I haven't had to do so many unit conversions since freshman physics. Try the google calculator next time:
8GB / 1.5Mbs
mr.

Twice the suckitude

[poptones]

I had a direcTV sub and I let it lapse because the quality was so bad the rips I was getting of my favorite tv shows were of MUCH lower quality than what I could download off usenet for free. West Wing, Dark Angel - my gawd, the FOX stations on DirecTV had TERRIBLE quality.

So how are they going to do this? Are they really going to deliver you the 6GB DVD stream of "Signs" or "Moulin Rouge?" I can see networks of DSLams from coast to coast grinding to a halt now. More likely it will be some shit quality rip made by machines in a "ripping factory" - if you have broadband you could ALREADY get anything they have to offer from usenet or bittorrent, in higher quality than they are likely to offer, and get it before these folks get around to "licensing" the content for broadcast from ho-town.

Jack had it wrong all along, and it's sad to see how his antiquated notions have crippled the potential of an entire industry. So long as Hollywood continues to deny broadcasters the ability to compete by offering high quality and convenience in one package, "piracy" is going to grow in the mainstream.

It's not about competing with free, Jack - it's about competing with quality.

Re:Twice the suckitude

[RzUpAnmsCwrds]

"I had a direcTV sub and I let it lapse because the quality was so bad the rips I was getting of my favorite tv shows were of MUCH lower quality than what I could download off usenet for free. "

Where the hell are you finding these rips?

I know that DirecTV's quality leaves quite a bit to be desired, but it's far superior to the 600MB DIVX rips you normally get online.

Perhaps you've found a source of decent DIVX rips, but 95% of the stuff online is poorly compressed 320x240 crap.

If I want to watch a show in high quality, I do one of the two things:

- Watch it live in HD, over the air (I don't have an HD TiVo yet)

- Rent it on DVD.

Both methods are far superior to anything that you're going to get on the internet, and they aren't in violation of copyright law, either.

Hi Fi Audio?

[Anonymous Coward]

This sounds great (I have both a Tivo and Netflix subscription) but I'm worried about the sound quality coming out of the Tivo. Right now, the Tivo doesn't support multi-channel output so I think the best movies via the Tivo could do would be Stereo sounds. :( Is this the case?

Re:Hi Fi Audio?

[tgibbs]

This sounds great (I have both a Tivo and Netflix subscription) but I'm worried about the sound quality coming out of the Tivo. Right now, the Tivo doesn't support multi-channel output so I think the best movies via the Tivo could do would be Stereo sounds. :( Is this the case?

The new High Definition TiVos support multichannel output. At the moment, that system is still priced for the videophile market ($1000), but in a couple of years they'll probably be handing it out for $100 with a couple of months free rentals included.

TIVO vs. Comcast

[TapestryDude]

I'm nervous, on Tivo's behalf, on this subject.

• Broadband is presumably required to download the DVD content
• This will likely be broadband over cable in most areas
• My provider, Comcast, offers a competing on-demand service
• Comcast is known to terminate service for anyone who actually uses their unlimited broadband
• Sign up, start downloading ... then go begging to get your Internet restored?

I suspect that other large cable/broadband providers will do the same (terminate, interrupt, or otherwise impede service), perhaps regardless of whether they provide on-demand services that directly compete with this Tivo/Netflicks offering.

Re:TIVO vs. Comcast

[silentbozo]

If they cut people off, then end-users will have to choose: keep cable, but forgo Tivo/Netflix, or switch to DSL and get rid of cable. If I were a DSL provider, I'd be offering promo packages to capture cable subscribers that were put into that position - boosting my own subscriber numbers, and putting the hurt on my competition (the local cable monopoly.)

Personally, I'd drop cable - you get a fat pipe down, but it doesn't mean much if you're not allowed to max it out. And who actually watches all 500 channels of programming anyways? Not anyone employed that I know of, unless their job is to watch TV... This has been Tivo's biggest achilles' heel - the dependence on cable/satellite timeshifting for new customers. They've added the home media option, and now Netflix - which helps to break that dependence somewhat.

I'm watching less and less live TV these days - I've got 170 movies in my Netflix queue, about half of them TV series (ie, Stargate SG-1, Mr. Bean, Foyle's War), and the other half divided between documentaries (History Channel, Discover Channel, etc.) and movies.

If Tivo is smart, they'll keep building on this in order to offer other types of programming, and hopefully fight their way back into a position where the cable companies have to deal with them as equals, instead of trying to run them out of town with their own OEM DVRs.

Disclaimer - I own Tivo stock, but I don't have a Tivo unit. I'll be getting my Netflix movies the regular way - via mail.

Re:TIVO vs. Comcast

[ssstraub]

I suspect that other large cable/broadband providers will do the same (terminate, interrupt, or otherwise impede service), perhaps regardless of whether they provide on-demand services that directly compete with this Tivo/Netflicks offering.

And drive all their customers to DSL? Sounds like a great business plan!

Re:TIVO vs. Comcast

[JustAnotherBob]

If comcast adopts an systemwide policy of capping bandwidth or terminating Tivo On Demand subscribers then it seems only plausable that Tivo would soon partner with a broadband company that is willing to make this type of content distribution part of their own business model. I mean cable networks are open to all competitors now so I see this as rather benificial. Tivo friendly designation for certain broadband providers maybe?

Re:TIVO vs. Comcast

[Jeff DeMaagd]

Comcast is known to terminate service for anyone who actually uses their unlimited broadband

Well, yeah, I think that was a poor marketing decision in the beginning. They should have been up-front that unlimited meant always-on in terms of there's no hour count, not unlimited being that you are trying to lug down the connection 100% all the time.

Some other slashdotter was complaining that his ISP only allowed 90 gigabytes downloaded per month. I'm thinking that is a lot of data to be pulling down. That is 20 single layer DVDs loaded to the brim. With DivX encoding, that could be 200 movies. For a T1 line, 90GB is 5.5 days of constant use. Obviously, that sort of usage costs a lot of money.

Re:TIVO vs. Comcast

[silentbozo]

Seems to me that it would be a symbiotic relationship. Tivo gets to save on bandwidth costs by putting "warehouse" servers in the provider's network. The provider gets to tout "fast Netflix transfers" without having to pay upstream transfer costs. Both Tivo and the provider would gain (or at least hold on to) subscribers.

Don't mod, spam address

[Anonymous Coward]

Spammers: inquiry@jtllc.com

shaw does this in BC

[null-sRc]

with this one you don't have to wait, it's instant...

only thing is I believe there's only a limited selection but i'm not sure...

https://secure.shaw.ca/sod/home.asp/

The movie should immediately start playing on your TV. Sit back and enjoy the show! Remember that you can stop, pause, rewind or jump forward at any time using your remote control.

Download time

[mapinguari]

"The downloads will likely take several hours."

No shit. A single layer DVD is what, 6GB?
The Matrix clocks in at 7.8GB.
At 1 Mb/s, that's close to a day.

Or by "DVD", maybe they mean a low quality copy of the movie you might rent on DVD, with none of the extras, bells or whistles.

Re:Download time

[gordgekko]

> No shit. A single layer DVD is what, 6GB?

It's actually 4.7GB.

Amen!

[WesternActor]

This idea is long overdue as far as I'm concerned. Given the delivery method of most cable services now, there's no reason for it not to happen. Well, I take that back: The reason is, if people are allowed to do this, the cable companies would make less money. So that's probably why it hasn't happened yet. But I live in New York and deal with Time-Warner Cable, paying $50/month for expanded basic service, which gives me some 60-70 channels, of which I regularly watch maybe 15. Hopefully the cable companies will come around to this way of thinking eventually, but I'm not sure I'm holding my breath.

Time to cancel my netflix account

[Jason1729]

I hate TiVo for their warped business model of charging extortive prices for a few kb of data a month. It's just insult to injury that they sell my viewing habits to the highest bidder after I pay them for the service that allows them to collect the data.

I have been a very happy netflix customer for a long time and I'm on one of the larger plans. If they go throught with this, I'll cancel my account, and I just emailed them to tell them that.

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[natelr]

Thats the reason why I dont own a Tivo. Its not worth $12 bucks (around that) to get data for 3 days of programming. Comcast has a built a DVR in their newer digital boxs that only costs an additional 5 bucks a month. I only wish it was available in my area. :-(

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[JustAnotherBob]

They only sell aggregate data, so there is no way of singling out a specific user. Plus who else provides a season pass feature and wish list. Most other video recorders other than ReplayTV such as the dishnetwork DVR's do cannot even begin to compare... As some other people say... TIVO really does change that way you experience TV.

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[Quarters]

How much is your Comcast subscription? TiVo is only $5 extra a month for DirecTV subscribers. It's quite comparable to cable companies and their, arguably, second rate DVRs.

TiVo is the best DVR I've ever used. It has user-friendly-ness down pat.

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[Anonymous Coward]

Cable prices are very high in the US. Take a look at what Starchoice costs in Canada. Then realize that most of the US land area can get Starchoice, find a Canadian friend, and sign up using their address...Instant 50% savings on your cable bill for the same content and CBC olympic coverage was far better than NBC.

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[zeroduck]

You actually get 2 weeks of guide data (faq) with the subscription.

If you look at the monthly fee as simply a guide data fee . . tivo might not be for you. With that service fee, you get a full solution.. theres season passes, wishlist searches, and remote scheduling. You don't get those with the cable company DVR.

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[Rude Turnip]

Tivo gives you 2 weeks of programming data. $12/mo or $300 for the lifetime of the unit (and replacements under warranty). You can recover your $300 lifetime fee in full if you sell your Tivo on eBay (hardware value will vary).

Comcast's DVR is $10/mo not $5. I have it. The interface is frustrating to the point that I don't even bother recording things with it. I got it to be able to record High-Def shows and I end up watching most of that stuff live in the end.

In the end, I paid for Tivo once upfront and it keeps getting better. I pay for the Comcast DVR monthly and I feel like I'm being leeched for $10/month.

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[madcow_ucsb]

Too bad none of the knockoffs have season passes. That's the best feature of the tivo. Pause live tv? Why on earth do they all push that? With tivo, I never have to watch live TV at all. And when that show I like has a marathon or moves or something, it just knows and everything takes care of itself.

Other than pausing live TV, those other DVRs don't do anything I couldn't do with two VCRs...

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[marmstro]

Well I am a very happy hacked TiVo user, and have no problems at all paying the trivial $13 per month for TiVos service, adn I am also a very happy NetFlix customer. I am now emailing both of them to please do this, it sounds like a great idea. I'll even go an buy a new Series 2 TiVo if I have to to get this service (as long as I can hack it to :) ).

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[rafaeln]

You know, I have never been able to understand the rage some people feel about TiVo selling anonymous usage statistics to interested parties, or about them charging for their service. Have we really become so coddled that the mere idea of a company trying to cover their expenses and, gasp!, make some money, is now so preposterous to us? They are providing a service, and they want to make money in the process, so of course they'll want to charge for it: that's just how it works! The way I see it, if they didn't make this extra money selling this usage information, then their monthly fees would be even higher: I'd rather some other company partially subsidize their costs than us the consumers having to pay for it all. For instance, they have recently lowered the monthly payment if you have a second unit, and no doubt the reason they can afford to do so is precisely because they can somehow make up for this loss: if some other company wants to do that, that's great news for me! :-) Finally, can someone please logically explain to me just exactly is so horrible about TiVo selling anonymous usage information to interested parties? How could it possibly do me any harm for companies to know which shows I watch? If anything, it would be beneficial to me: this means that I am implicitly "voting" for my favorite shows, thus lowering the chances that they will be cancelled, and, in the worst case, simply making it more likely that the commercials they play during these shows are things I could marginally care about... again, I don't see the problem with that at all. As a subscriber of both TiVo and NetFlix, I think the marriage of the ideas is excellent (and is, in fact, one of the ways I thought TiVo could improve their service, by providing programming, be it movies or regular shows, on demand). I'm glad to see they will be actually implementing it. :-)

Re:Time to cancel my netflix account

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not them selling their service and making a profit I object to, it's the way they do it.

I would absolutely pay $400 for the 40 hour unit hardware if it included free lifetime service and the maximum level of functionality if TiVo shuts down, but I refuse to pay $100 + $300 for a lifetime service contract.

Call it a psychological difference. The hardware is worth $400, the service is not worth $300 even if it includes a $300 rebate on the hardware. It makes the company come off sounding evil and I want nothing to do with them

Favorite Cable Company

[nfg05]

My favorite cable company? Hell, I've only got one choice and it's a bit of a stretch to call it my favorite...

TiVo = open source

[KB1GHC]

TiVo's OS is Linux based, you can download the source code: http://tivo.com/linux/linux.asp

I'm not sure about all TiVo's but mine has a USB port in the back (and most of the new ones do) but there are several books and online guides (one book that i know of "Hacking the TiVo")

But you can pull the MPEG2's right off the TiVo and on to your hard drive, and then it's onto the DVD burner from there.

However, I don't know if this NetFlix thing is actually going to send the entire DVD to your TiVo (with the menus and deleted scenes and stuff) or if it's just going to be movies only.

I have DirecTV and TiVo, and they already have "Starz on demand" where you choose what movie you want.

If you order pay per view, or record something on Starz, you can record it onto a DVD, but it might not have the deleted scenes and stuff.

Also with a TiVo, there is something called the "showcase" and if you go into the "showcase" menu it has a few short video clips, (all junk like commercials and stuff)

But I'm not sure if this is real big news, there have been all kinds of movie services in the past. (Pay-Per-View, Starz, HBO, ShowTime, On-Demand) (KaZaA)

But if this new service is going to send the entire DVD, (deleted scenes and all), it will be pretty cool.

Re:TiVo = open source

[drawfour]

TiVo's OS is Linux based, you can download the source code: http://tivo.com/linux/linux.asp

Thanks for the link to the source. Does this contain only the enhancements they made to the kernel, or does it contain the TiVo application as well? For example, the rules engine for schedules and conflict resolution? I know they have to release their kernel enhancements, but unless their application is put into the kernel itself, they may not release the source for it.

I'm not sure about all TiVo's but mine has a USB port in the back (and most of the new ones do) but there are several books and online guides (one book that i know of "Hacking the TiVo")

I have the Toshiba SDH-400. It has the USB ports (I use one of them for wireless). I know the original Series 1, you could use the serial port and get a shell prompt. Is there a similar way to do this with the USB connection? I'm quite interested in modifying my TiVo, but I've never found any information regarding the Series 2, specifically the Toshiba SDH-400.

But you can pull the MPEG2's right off the TiVo and on to your hard drive, and then it's onto the DVD burner from there.

This is definitely one thing I want. Any links you can provide would be useful.

Re:TiVo = open source

[KB1GHC]

not sure, i never really played with it, i'm not very good at C/C++

There is a book called "Hacking the TiVo" thats pretty much "THE BOOK" for TiVo mods.

Re:TiVo = open source

[tmesis892]

Take a look at http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum. All the info you need for getting shell on Tivo or video extraction is there (although may be difficult to find).

Re:TiVo = open source

[Rude Turnip]

To answer all of your questions:

They only have the kernel modifications available for download...in other words just the stuff that they're required to offer. A copy of the GPL can be found in the back of the instruction manual.

To use ethernet with a Series 2 Tivo, plug a USB ethernet adapter into the USB port. Series 2 is broadband-ready.

There is no easy way to pull an MPEG from a Series 2. AFAIK, the "community" is generally aware it can be done, but there is little in the way of info being published out of respect to TiVo as to not spoil a good thing.

Re:TiVo = open source

[drawfour]

They only have the kernel modifications available for download...in other words just the stuff that they're required to offer. A copy of the GPL can be found in the back of the instruction manual.

Exactly what I figured. They give away as much as the GPL requires them to.

To use ethernet with a Series 2 Tivo, plug a USB ethernet adapter into the USB port. Series 2 is broadband-ready.

That wasn't my question. I asked if there was a way to use the USB port (in some way) to get a shell prompt. I know the Series 2 is ethernet ready -- I use it with a wireless USB adapter already. Since I asked the question, I've found that it's supposed to be possible to get a shell on a Series 2. "Hacking the TiVo" by William von Holsen (or something like that) explains it. So I bought the book.

There is no easy way to pull an MPEG from a Series 2. AFAIK, the "community" is generally aware it can be done, but there is little in the way of info being published out of respect to TiVo as to not spoil a good thing.

Again, not surprising. It's really too bad - adding a new hard drive is about all I've found. I'd rather be able to move the MPEGs off to another machine so that I can keep them archived for later use. I'd also really like to add some updates to the rules engine (for example, I have a "Science" wishlist, but I get stupid shows like "Blake Holesey High" and "Dr Hugh Ross" that I hate. But they record whether I have 3 thumbs down on them or not. A rule that says "I don't care what the wishlist is, if it had 3 thumbs down, don't record it!" is all that I'm really looking for.

Livensing

[YrWrstNtmr]

What, therefore, stops them from ripping all of the DVD's in, say, NetFlix's library into their format, storing it on their server, and putting up a request system.

This is the cable company you're speaking of. One disgruntled employee call to the MPAA "Hey...Guess what Cox does!"

They're not about to risk their corporate and personal futures for the sake of pissing off the MPAA trying to shave the licensing costs.

VOD

[AstroDrabb]

This is what cable companies are doing with VOD (video on demand). I Have have had this service (no extra cost) for a good 1 1/2 - 2 years with TimeWarner/Brighthouse. I just turn to channel 1 and can scroll through the movies available. The cost per movie is about the same as Blockbuster. I hit play and the movie starts right away. I can stop/rewind/FF/Play as much as I want for 24 hours. The only thing that currently sucks about the service is the poor movie selection. Maybe 100-150 movies. Now, if the cable companies had a big library, the service would be great and I would have no need to go to Blockbuster or the local movie joint.

Oh, sure.

[gstoddart]

The netflix website interfaces directly with the TiVo network and you schedule a download of the movie.

When you get home it's completely downloaded to your TiVo (or darn close to it) and you can enjoy the movie without waiting.

Until the whole system gets hacked and you come home to 37 hours of gay midget porn all conveniently already billed to your account. =)

Re:Oh, sure.

[Anonymous Coward]

lololo those sytems are always getting ha4ored!

Already Here With ReplayTV and Poopli

[meehawl]

You will be able to order a DVD and have it appear sometime later on the Tivo.

I already enjoy this slow pseudo-VOD service with TV shows (and whatever DVDs people have stored on their RTVs) using ReplayTV and Poopli. It's like Napster for video.

you FAIL bit

[Anonymous Coward]

the re2aper BSD's ARITHMETIC,

Twin Birth

[meehawl]

Tivo created the DVR

Actually both ReplayTV and Tivo brought their technology to market simultaneously (summer of 1999)O. So much so, in fact, that they dropped competing patent infringement lawsuits against each other in favour of a blanket patent sharing arrangement.

If you are not familiar with ReplayTV vs Tivo, there's a simple analogy. Think: Apple vs Microsoft. The market shares are actually kind of similar as well.

Not "fairly trivial" at all

[ssstraub]

I just came from www.tivocommunity.com where they have a specific forum for TiVo hacking. Video extraction is anything but trivial.

Although the soon-to-be-released TivoToGo aims to fix this all in one software update.

This would be a start.

[SuperKendall]

With the NetFlix/TiVo pairing you'd be off to a good start. There are a lot of series I would like to watch, that I have not yet (like BBC's The Office) - but with this I could rent the series DVD at my leisure. You can easily imaging a future where you pay a bit more to rent series episodes alone the day of release - making channels themselves a relic!

How about High Definition

[tgibbs]

Being able to download DVDs to my TiVo is something I'd probably do occasionally when the video shop a couple of blocks from my home doesn't have what I want. On the other hand, if I could download better-than-DVDs to my high-definition TiVo, I'd probably go to my TiVo first, and check the video store if TiVo couldn't get it.

Did not know that...

[SuperKendall]

I thought they were independent, if they are partly owned by studios that could bode well for the service actually not being sued - and possibly for some draconian restrictions on use of downloaded media.

been there done that: www.suprnova.org

[Anonymous Coward]

been there done that: www.suprnova.org wheee :)

Cool idea, but quality and sound?

[mwyner]

Sounds pretty cool, but what about those movies with DTS sound and higher quality? Is all that stuff going to be lost in the download? Netflix for me takes about a day or two to get a new movie (return it Tuesday, it's received Wednesday, get new one on Thursday), and for certain movies I wouldn't be willing to sacrifice my sound or quality just to get it somewhat quicker.

Slow down there, Captain Ignorant!

[Anonymous Coward]

First, they sell aggregate data, NOT data with your name attached to it.

Second, you can opt out of the data collection if you want. TiVo hackers have examined the data stream the TiVo sends before and after and confirmed that once you opt out, no data about your viewing habits is sent out.

Third, you don't have to pay a monthly fee in perpetuity. You can buy a subscription for the lifetime of the TiVo for $300-- which works out to paying the monthly fee for two years up front, after which the program listings are free.

Re:Slow down there, Captain Ignorant!

[Jason1729]

Lifetime to most normal people means for the lifetime of the customer. To TiVo, it's the life of the hardware. If it breaks in 6 months and they replace the hardware under warranty you're still screwed. If you want to buy a newer and better receiver in a year or two, you'll be buying an new plan.

What a bunch of rip-off artists they are. TiVo makes MS look good in customer treatment. Remember this is all for channel guide data which is not worth anywhere near their insane prices, so most people wouldn't pay it (and didn't pay the $10 on 1st generation units). That's why they crippled 2nd gen and newer ones to extort their customers into paying. They even recently "accidently" broke all 1st gen units to force their customers to upgrade to newer crippled units.

Re:Slow down there, Captain Ignorant!

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh my 1st gen unit still works correctly. Basically you are completely ignorant and spouting of your mistaken opinions as truth.

Tivo will allow you to change a lifetime plan to a new receiver if your old one is broken.

Besides it isn't the size of the data that matters, but the value. TiVo's guide data is by far the best and allows you to do things like complex smart searches for things to record which cable still doesn't provide.

Re:Slow down there, Captain Ignorant!

[djp123]

Units replaced under warranty retain their lifetime status (it's transferred to the new unit--I had to do it once). Units that are repaired by an authorized repair center (which basically just swap your unit with a refurbed one) retain their lifetime status also. My Series 1 TiVo has been working happily for over 6 years.

The monthly fee is for S/W that's integrated with guide data--if you just want guide data, look it up yourself on zap2it and program your VCR. I've tried cable DVRs--IMHO they don't hold a candle to TiVo in UI or features, but no one's holding a gun to your head, buy what you think has value.

Lastly, I have no idea what you're ranting about WRT the "crippled 2nd gen". The Series 2 has USB ports, which virtually all of the new features are based upon. My Series 1 works the same as it did the day I bought it--I have no idea what you think "they 'accidently' broke".

What's the big deal?

[Kaldaien]

It sounds nice in theory that you can download a
"DVD" to your TiVo and watch it, but there are
some serious cons to such a system (on TiVo
hardware)...

For one thing, TiVo doesn't have component
outputs, so you're stuck with SVIDEO. The DVD
video will be compressed even more than normal so
you lose picture quality even before the picture
goes over SVIDEO.

TiVo doesn't have S/PDIF out, so you can say
goodbye to Dolby Digital or DTS sound (most
importantly a discrete LFE channel). The audio
too, will be compressed more than normal. So even
without Dolby Digital or DTS you're still getting
much lower quality than the actual DVD.

And finally, nobody (I know anyway) has enough
free space on their TiVo to store these movies...
We're all too busy hoarding episodes of shows
we've been meaning to burn to DVD for months :)

ReplayTV's more suited to address the first two
issues (since they have S/PDIF and Component Video
outputs). Certain TiVo models have built-in DVD
burners, which only solves the 3rd problem...

Personally, if I wanted something on demand, I'd
use my cable company's VOD service. (Which DOES
have Dolby Digital soundtracks, but no DTS :-\)
and my cable box has component out. And there's
also HD VOD (something renting or owning the
actual DVD can't even offer :P)...

I'm equally surprised at the success of iTunes.
The music you download is noticably lossy, and
they don't offer lossless copies of anything you
buy (40+ Mb would be perfectly acceptable for this
audiophile :)).

I suppose there are those who will always like
their thrills cheap and easy, making up the
majority of the customer base for online music
services right now. It remains unclear what will
happen to these service's customer bases once
HDTV sets and Dolby Digital / DTS home theatre
equipment becomes more mainstream.

TiVo would do much better if it were to upgrade
its "Home Media" option to allow PC -> TiVo video
x'fers and other services that ReplayTV offers.
I understand why they're hesitant to implement 1st
party video extraction. But injection of external
MPEG2 files would make a lot of people happy,
especially those folks with the DVD burner models.
I'd more willingly fork over a few extra bucks a
month for that than renting a DVD over TiVo.

+5, Insightful?!

[Anonymous Coward]

How about "-1, Offtopic?" this post doesn't deal with tivo, netflix, or their partnership.

"oh yeah, that reminds me of something else entirely that i don't like that has to do with television somehow!"

5.1 Channel Sound? Component Video?

[Quarters]

A TiVO S2 doesn't have seperate RGB outputs, progressive scan, or 5.1 optical audio output. Granted some DirecTiVo S2s and some of the high-end licensed TiVO S2 boxes have RGB and 5.1. I don't think any of them have progressive scan, though. Well, maybe the HD DirecTivo does, I've never seen one of those.

For the majority of TiVo users this will not be equivilant to a DVD. It will be lower bitrate, 2-channel audio, interlaced, and S-Video output at best. It's a neat idea, but acutally renting or buying a DVD will still be better.

Re:5.1 Channel Sound? Component Video?

[Hassman]

You mention S-Video as if it is a bad thing. I havn't been keeping up, but last time I was up to date on all things A/V S-Video was pretty damn good. It is now sub-standard?

Ads

[tmillard]

I hope they would not fill the whole thing with ads like cable and 'dish TV.

Also, what would happen if $DVD_John got one of these?

buy tivo

[SubtleNuance]

Holy grail. Movies. On. Demand.

Dude...

[poptones]

Watch it live? Dunno where you live, but where I live West Wing has been on hiatus for.. I dunno. Six months it seems. And when it comes back from hiatus it's unlikely I'll be able to rent the show on DVD the day after it airs. The NBC affiliate in my rural area still doesn't have an HD plan, but I can get a high quality, straight from HD, 480p MPEG2 encoded rip within 48 hours of the show's first air.

And yes, it's of substantially higher quality than anything DirecTV had to offer when I was a subscriber. DirecTV, IME, absolutely sucks hairy ass. Blurry, chroma-rich blacks that were inevitably any color but; images so compressed faces "float" in dark scenes like disembodied spirits in the night - just a very washed out, low quality image. People who think their picture quality is acceptable are either nearsighted or have not seen how bad it looks on an HD set compared to even a relatively low quality DVD. I used to have a couple of Bjorks vids ripped from MTV and DirecTV defenders were always amazed when I would show them side by side screencaps compared to the DVD versions.

Can't find West Wing? Get a decent usenet account and do a search. Or just visit the newsgroup "alt.binaries.multimedia.west-wing." When dark Angel was on, ditto there (abm.dark-angel) - and ditto (now) Enterprise (one guess where to find those). True, the older shows can now be had on DVD and many of those shows are on my netflix wishlist - ripping them myself is easier than downloading shows because I have no bandwidth out here. But when I lived in LA and had DSL I didn't even have cable - I could get anything I wanted via pacbell and I could watch that material anytime I wanted. Hell, that was like five years ago - the quality of the online material since then has improved tremendously. Thanks to folks in the socialized broadband-active countries in euroupe and asia, several groups even carry raw HD VOB rips and ISOs of DVDs.

Copyright?

Yeah, right. When Hollywood starts demonstrating a valid recognition of our society's collective rights, I'll show some compassion for theirs.

Amazing Technology

[rat7307]

You will be able to order a DVD and have it appear sometime later on the Tivo.

Holy Crap!!
Tivo now has a built in Teleporter!!!
Oh, you meant a MOVIE/MOTION PICTURE.... nevermind...
I've been labouring under the assumption that a DVD was just the media that held the movie.....

Picture Quality?

[Zemrec]

This is awesome if it comes to pass, but I wonder first, will I have to finally get a Series 2 or one of the Pioneer DVD-Rs? Also, how much bandwidth will it use? Hard drive space?

I have a Philips Series 1 with Turbonet and an extra hard drive (only 50 GB total, but that seems good enough for me.) However, I'm noticing there are image quallity problems, lots of stuff just isn't as sharp as live is. And I have it set to use Highest quality.

My setup: Tivo, DirecTV, 5.1 Koss DVD unit, 27" Sony Wega, using composite cables. Yeah, I know S-Video would be better (component even better) But I also use a selector box for my XBox, GameCube and PS2, which are all composite. But thats not problem. If I go direct from DirecTV to the Koss, it looks better.

So it makes me wonder how a movie is going to look. I have 8mbit DSL, so bandwidth isn't an issue for me, (unless this thing is going to do what TiVo does to TV input, watch it all the time...), but I figure they're going to need to compress the stream, maybe using an advanced mpeg4 codec (how about that new H.264 that Apple and DVD Forum is touting?

Mainly I've noticed the quality problems since I "inherited" the Wega from my Dad. Before I was using an older TV, so maybe its just that the Wega is so much crisper anyway that it brings out the flaws in the TiVo video codec?

Is there anything that can be done about that? Would a new TiVo box (either DirecTivo or DVD-R) have better quality? Do the newer boxes have better codecs?

Whats it going to be like with this Netflix over broadband to TiVo?

DVDs on Demand?

[LuYu]

What does DVDs on demand mean? Especially with relation to the Tivo. It sounds like a download in the article, but that would be video on demand, not DVDs on demand. A DVD is a disk.

Or does it mean something like printing on demand where you would request a movie and they would press a disk and mail it to you? That sounds like DVDs on demand to me. However, that probably would not require a Tivo.

New series distributiution mechanism?

[sdpinpdx]

I wonder if the economics of this will enable independent producers to distribute TV series without the big TV networks? Clearly you still need a big wad of VC cash to make your pilot, but aren't there other sources of that besides the networks?

"Crippled 2nd gen"

[celery stalk]

What your parent poster is likely referring to is a big difference between Series1 TiVos and Series2 TiVos. The Series1 could be used as a HDD based VCR, with a great visual interface, and (in many folks' opinion), a great remote. Series2 on the other hand, can not. After the initial setup call, it will effectively stop working after 30 days. You can still watch TV, pause, rewind, etc...but it will not record shows. Unfortunatly, this happens after 30 days, which is after the limit of most stores' return policy.

This may have been changed by now, but before I got my TiVo Series2, I had read on the tivo.com page that you ARE able to use a TiVo as a HDD VCR, without the guide data. They just don't recommend it. So when I discovered this "30 day gotcha", I was slightly pissed.

D what?

[e03179]

What ever happened to the second "D" in the term "DVD"?

Cost to serve video

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering that it costs atleast 50 cents per GigaByte using a CDN (such as akamai, etc), and that a DVD is about 4.5GB, the cost to serve comes to be more than $2 per movie. If Netflix wants to serve at a decent rate, they need to use a CDN. Leaving aside tivo's ability to do any serving among the boxes, i wonder how the economics would work for being able to serve.